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all
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right hey everyone how is everyone doing
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today lots of excited any anyone else go
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to the maple leaf last night see rebirth
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good to be in New Orleans all right all
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right guys uh so right now the question
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of media credibility is more important
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than ever fake news and the topic of
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fake news seems to be something that we
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can't escape we can't get away from we
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hear it quite often from the current
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Administration in the US specifically
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Donald Trump and so we have two media
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Heavy Hitters here to kind of discuss
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the issue and what the potential
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solutions could be if fake news is a
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problem so John I'm going to start with
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you give me your opinion on fake news
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because there is a little bit of a
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division among Americans as to whether
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or not fake news is really a thing does
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it really exist or is it just an excuse
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used by politicians to minimize negative
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news coverage well it first of all fake
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news is a real problem there's no
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question but I think we need to define
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the terms really clearly because it is
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not what some folks would like to sell
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it as fake news I Define as
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fundamentally false stories that are
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written with the intent to deceive right
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they may have a propagandas
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propagandistic purpose sometimes they
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may be just fueled by profit um but this
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is something that has become epidemic uh
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it's it's calculated misinformation what
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fake news is not is what president Trump
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and the White House crew are trying to
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sell which is any news that might be
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critical of them news that offends you
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somehow personally or politically um
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that's an orwellian attempt to blur
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basic distinctions between fact and
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fiction between truth and lies uh that's
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incredibly dangerous to start muddying
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the waters uh but that is it explicit
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intent and I think that's just a measure
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of how serious the times we're in right
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now are that that's something we're
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debating with push back an agenda-driven
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push back from the White House so Jared
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there seems to be a little bit of an
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issue um deciphering the difference
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between the type of fake news that John
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just perfectly laid out and you know
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news reports that might be wrong on some
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of the facts right and everyone in the
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media at some point in their careers
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makes a mistake they get a fact wrong
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they report it and the right thing is to
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retract it right and so how do we get
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the American people to understand the
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difference between intentional fake news
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and reporting that has the best
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intentions but maybe got some of the
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facts wrong I think part of it is
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actually that word intention because I
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think where we have arrived at is at a
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point where there's a line between bias
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in the media and fake and I think in a
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world that's becoming increasingly more
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polarized politically this concept of
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bias is is what's polluting the
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conversation and if you think about it
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how do we as people actually access the
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news and the information that we consume
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consum on a daily basis and as the world
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has shifted to digital and within
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digital to mobile the two dominant
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platforms where people access news is
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really through search and through social
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and when you're in search you are
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explicitly seeking something I have an
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intention of what I'm looking for and
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somebody delivers what I'm looking for
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so my own personal biases get reinforced
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in what I'm looking for if you think
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about social the very concept of social
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is what do all the people in my network
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consume and is that relevant to me and
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that kind of reaffirms biases that I may
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have like maybe I'm friends with people
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who don't have any common interest or
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thought processes I do but most people
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actually are friends with people who are
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more similar to them than not so you
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have this self-reinforcing issue in
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terms of how we consume it and so the
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platforms who are behind this are
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working very hard at trying to sort of
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solve that issue of bias at the platform
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level on the same token as Publishers of
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content um there are either explicit or
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latent biases in terms of journalistic
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Enterprises and um you know some media
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organizations skew more conservatives
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some skew more liberals some skew more
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for Millennials some skew for different
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demographics and and I think um it's
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it's okay to have a point of view on the
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world and in fact consumers want to um
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and people want to know that the people
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are delivering the information have a
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point of view I think in that regard
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it's really really important for
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publication and for the writers to be
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very transparent about where they're
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coming from what their intentions are
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and what their backgrounds are it's why
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a lot of um the best journalistic
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Enterprises make the bios of the
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authors's really front and center so you
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can really as a as a person understand
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where they're coming from and I think um
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having that knowledge is is is really
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really important U of course people get
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stuff wrong and um whether you're an
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athlete which we just heard about or
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whether uh you're a journalist you may
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not get the facts right all the time but
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then it's up to the um the writer and
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the News organization to correct that um
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so I think when you put those two things
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together it's why people are um not so
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much because of fake news although that
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doesn't help but also this concept of
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bias um on both the platform layer and
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the publication layer so I love that you
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brought that up because when I was in
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journalism School the biggest no no once
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you're out there on the field is sharing
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your opinion and I remember one of my
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favorite journalism professors telling
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me do not ever share your opinion until
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you pay your dues and you are credible
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enough to be an op-ed writer or
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something like that but the media
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landscape is changing and it's changing
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rapidly people do want a point of view
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and John you know you published a book
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about Wing nuts and I I I found it
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fascinating because we do have a very
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polarized political system right now and
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at first I was under the assumption that
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hey hey maybe it's because of some of
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the media players and the shock jocks
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like Rush Limba that are playing a role
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in polarizing people but it seems like
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there is a hunger for biased media
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people as as you just mentioned Jared
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are looking for information that
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reinforces their preconceived notions
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right and I think that that has kind of
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created a system that allows something
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like fake news to thrive what do you
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think about that well I I think there
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there are a lot of sort of macro dnamic
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that have gotten us to this Point
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partisan news and polarization of of of
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society and and
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hyperarticulation in Congress this idea
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of us against them it undercuts sort of
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the essential idea behind democracy
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which is an assumption of Goodwill among
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fellow citizens um and I think a lot of
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the technological Trends uh that that
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jar described I think are driving it too
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because part of what fake news is um
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it's it's sort of conf confirmation bias
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meets clickbait um and and it sort of
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takes that DNA of of partisan news and
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it it it it sends it into the absurd but
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it becomes incredibly toxic incredibly
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Radioactive so I I look I think the
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larger lack of trust in news media has
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been increasing for unfortunately
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decades it predates social media it
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predates fake news but that's that's the
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foundation of it and so at The Daily
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Beast for example we try very hard to be
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nonpartisan but not neutral what does
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that mean it means we will hit both
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sides as appropriate that we have
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columnists who range liberal to
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libertarian that we try to be
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transparent we try to be edgy but but
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you know you always balance the attitude
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with accuracy what we don't do and what
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I I think is incredibly dangerous is um
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this sort of on the one hand on the
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other uh myth of moral equivalence on
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every issue because once you start
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buying into that then that itself
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becomes muddying about the line between
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truth and lies fact and fiction and
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that's something we as journalists need
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to be pushing back on we need to be
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Unapologetic about pushing a fact-based
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debate and be transparent about opinions
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and and and uh perspectives when they
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exist right and I think that's a really
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important point because one of the
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biggest issues uh in the media was that
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journalists were confusing the
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importance of objectivity with
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neutrality right and so they treated
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both sides as if they're completely
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equal they're both saying one thing or
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the other and then it's up to you to
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decide who's telling the truth and again
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I think that that played a role in
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people getting really frustrated with
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establishment Media or traditional media
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and then they turned to some more
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obscure independent sources so all these
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little things did play a role in my
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opinion as to how fake news emerged and
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how it became so influential yeah so
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let's talk a little bit about how
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influential it really is because I think
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there are some disagreements as to how
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much of an impact uh how many
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ramifications we've experienced as a
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result of misleading or fake news um so
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do you want to jump in sure I I mean you
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know look this became epidemic in a
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relatively short period of time which is
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one of the reasons why I think we were
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ill equipped to deal with it um I mean
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misinformation campaigns the purchasing
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of bots to try to uh depress turnout or
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confuse people as two facts um that's
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something that we have seen um you know
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unfortunately primarily in other
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democracies more so than our own um and
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I think you know one of the many factors
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that led to this perfect storm that had
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an impact on the election um was sort of
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you know Facebook kind of pulling the
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goalie when it came to some of the
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people who were individually curating
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articles out of concern that there was
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individual bias and all of a sudden Flo
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what flowed in was a massive amount of
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fake news that people weren't uh
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prepared on the platforms to try to
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adjudicate so we know fake news was
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getting shared uh more often than real
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news in those closing uh critical
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closing months and weeks of the election
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and and I'll say that you know there's a
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brand new Kennedy uh School of
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government report about the rise of fake
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news that I recommend uh people are
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trying to fix this on different fronts
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Jimmy Wales uh uh uh Wikipedia is trying
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to launch an initiative um and and I
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think we all need to take it seriously
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but it really it it happens so quickly
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that it overwhelmed a lot of the the
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people who'd normally be there to uh
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adjudicate it and and that's one of the
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reasons given the election results were
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so tight you can't pinpoint one thing
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but um it can have a demonstrably uh a
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demonstrable effect on our democracy and
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it's happening in the French election
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right now so yes it's real the Dynamics
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um we need to understand and then we
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need to aggressively confront them as
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journalists as businesses as advertisers
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as academics like we all need to have a
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mult front push on this right now
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because it's impacting our democracy in
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real time Jared what stood out to you
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the most in regard to fake news during
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this past election was there something
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that that spread that had a like a
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serious impact that you were concerned
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about well one thing um to consider is
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whether it's this election or other
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elections and even in this conversation
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of um fake news and legitimate news is
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the number of people in this country and
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around the world who we like to refer to
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as unused or under newsed which is
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people who are actually not who don't
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feel part of the system at all they're
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like both disenfranchised from a voting
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perspective but also disenfranchised
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from like the powers and structures of
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like the society around them that's a
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really big population and I think um one
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of the opportunities in front of all of
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us is to figure out a way in which we
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can actually help um like a broader
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group of society gain access to like the
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power structures of society and I think
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if we can really like tackle that as a
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problem collectively as journalism and
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as uh citizens that can go a long way
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towards democracy I will say also um on
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this topic of fake news I get
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uncomfortable when we talk about fake
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news almost as its own construct because
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um I find it dangerous and it's
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dangerous not sort of um within the
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construct of what um fake news is it's
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the effect of what fake news could be on
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the role of media and free discourse in
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society if you think about this not from
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a journalism point of view or from a
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Content point of view but in every
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democracy around the world like um
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legislator have gotten together to say
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there's got to be rules and restrictions
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on who actually controls and owns the
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media like there's always been
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restrictions like if the government
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controls the media then you know what
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the outcome of the media is going to be
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if only large corporations control it
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and consolidate power you may be locking
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in um the control um of discourse in a
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very very Consolidated point of view
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wouldn't you argue that that's been an
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ongoing problem with media in the US
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yeah it it's been a problem but here
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here's the opportunity like one of the
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great things about Twitter one of the
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great things about social media it's now
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so easy to publish content it's now
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never been like more accessible to
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consume content and it's amidst the fact
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that um we have these extraordinary
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platforms where conversations can take
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place that the lines between sort of
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like serious well-reported journalism
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and just like opinion can get blurred
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and I think um it's for that reason that
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um uh Publications like what we're doing
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at HuffPost what John is doing um in his
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organization
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all of us are spending a lot of time
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making very deep investments in our core
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identity as a brand it's like it has to
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matter like it it's no coincidence that
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the New York Times is taking commercials
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out for the first time ever it's no
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coincidence that all of us are saying
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like who are we why are we relevant why
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do we matter because when you get to
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know who we are and what role we want to
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play in society then you can make a
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decision whether this is an entity you
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want to get behind or this is an entity
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you don't want to get behind and this is
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really important because remember
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conventional wisdom 3 four years ago at
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the dawn of sort of the rise of social
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media was the brands don't matter
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anymore news Brands don't matter people
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don't care what they click on they're
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clicking on individual stories we know
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now that actually people do pay
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attention who's disseminating the
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information and guess what they should
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um and and I think that's one of the
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reasons why you're seeing sort of a
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trump bump in subscriptions people are
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also getting hip to the fact that guess
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what quality journalism isn't free and
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we're going to need to have a
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diversified Revenue strategy to actually
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just make sure the business model of
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Journalism gets fixed because that's
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actually really important to the
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maintenance of democracy as well and in
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a macro sense you know you I I always
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beli that you know American people are
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smart but not necessarily informed and
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one of the things that has driven I
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think a um the divisions in our country
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is the death of local media um you know
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we have watched you know local paper
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after local paper get killed pretty soon
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we'll have a first state that doesn't
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have a local paper and yes citizen
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journalists can supplement that a little
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bit but it's really hard to hold state
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legislators accountable and guess what
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those are usually hot beds of corruption
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spoiler alert and so the more all of a
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sudden that folks don't have local media
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looking out for them the more they're
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likely to feel a sense of you're
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parachuting in and doing anthropological
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studies of my my town uh you know
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Washington Post or New York Times or
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whatever and that builds a sense of
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distrust even where there maybe should
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not be distrust so that's why it's got
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to be a a a a a multifaceted push back
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and this is all happening at a time not
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just accusations of fake news from the
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federal government but you know Ryan's
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prus the chief of staff saying uh this
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past weekend that the White House has
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looked at cracking down on Lial laws you
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know there yes there are constitutional
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structures that protect us you know the
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Constitution doesn't mention political
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parties it does mention the Press uh but
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but this is this is really urgent on
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every front and we've got to analyze how
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we got here and start pushing back
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across the board people supporting
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quality journalism locally or nationally
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advertisers and corporate citizens
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consciously whitelisting quality
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journalism those are all going to be
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pieces of the puzzle yeah in that regard
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actually there's further challenges
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because as John alluded to but just to
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be explicit about it when you factor in
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the business models that are driving
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journalism um you know that adds an
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extra level of pressure in terms of how
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do journalistic Enterprise deliver their
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best quality work and specifically if
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you're ad supported as a business model
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we're also living um in a day and age
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where Brands um
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really care a lot about um where they're
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Associated what content they're being
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placed against and um and so you know
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maintaining the Integrity of the
00:17:11
journalism but also sort of getting um
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Brands to feel comfortable of getting
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behind um the actual business model you
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know we're seeing some pressure there
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across the industry and there there's a
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catch 22 there that's really important
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for folks to understand on the one hand
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um you know people are reading news more
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often often than ever before right and
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and if you're an Advertiser you want to
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reach you know educated influential uh
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readers quality news creates quality
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readership that should be a good
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transaction of value right but what uh
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what very tempting for Brands to say
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that hard news is unsafe because the the
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environment is so polarized um that if
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it's if it's politics or if it's dealing
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with real world threats like terrorism
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or anything else that that negativity
00:17:56
could be brand unsafe and if folks start
00:17:59
taking that decision guess what we will
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start getting uh more focus on
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entertainment uh news and sports news um
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and less hard news that itself is also
00:18:11
dangerous for democracy because at some
00:18:12
point it becomes bread in circuses like
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the Romans had to deal with it's
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something to distract people to give the
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illusion of news without the reality of
00:18:19
news so that's a real danger we need to
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deal with as well yeah that's a huge
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problem and I mean we can honestly host
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an hourlong panel on that and that alone
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and it's not just something that you're
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seeing in you know uh traditional Media
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or print media cable news it's something
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that we're experiencing in digital news
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as well you know I host The Young Turks
00:18:37
independent news source and now all of a
00:18:40
sudden advertisers are pulling out of
00:18:42
YouTube because of the previous model
00:18:45
that allowed their ads to to you know do
00:18:48
either pre-roll or post-roll on hate
00:18:51
speech and so now now they've gone in a
00:18:53
completely different you know Direction
00:18:55
where they're like we don't want to be
00:18:56
on any political content we don't want
00:18:57
to be on any type of sexual content even
00:19:00
if it's just sex education and so there
00:19:02
are legitimate sources out there that
00:19:04
are trying to make a living independent
00:19:06
independently I should say um that are
00:19:08
getting hit by the emergence of fake
00:19:10
news the emergence of hate speech the
00:19:12
polarization that we're experiencing in
00:19:14
politics right now it's uh it's honestly
00:19:16
a nightmare it's really difficult to
00:19:18
adapt to that but what are the answers
00:19:20
because you mentioned white listing and
00:19:22
so right now there's you know this
00:19:24
pressure on Silicon Valley CEOs uh Mark
00:19:28
Zuckerberg he has a moral obligation to
00:19:30
do something about fake news and the
00:19:33
question is what does he do how do you
00:19:37
mitigate this issue or solve this issue
00:19:39
without you know creeping into First
00:19:42
Amendment you know violation territory
00:19:45
right that's what I'm most concerned
00:19:47
about so Jared I'm going to let you take
00:19:49
this one sure so um I think one thing to
00:19:52
point out and I I do think there's an
00:19:54
obligation um of all the stakeholders in
00:19:57
the industry to actually like solve this
00:19:59
problem because I think underlying it is
00:20:01
what John um has eloquently articulated
00:20:04
is like we believe in a world where
00:20:05
there should be free speech and there
00:20:07
should be an outlet for discourse so if
00:20:09
that's like the table Stakes assumption
00:20:11
we we all need to get together whether
00:20:13
whether you're Facebook Google or us at
00:20:15
um huff post um and uh but one thing to
00:20:19
note is that um you know as a
00:20:22
distributor Distributors who've got
00:20:25
power always play this role in terms of
00:20:28
of what is being shown and what is not
00:20:30
being shown that's no different than
00:20:32
like at any point in the history of
00:20:35
media where there's been a few Outlets
00:20:38
that have the vast majority of people on
00:20:40
those outlets and they determine what
00:20:43
gets shown and and and so there is
00:20:46
always this level of editing and um
00:20:49
that's taking place because there's only
00:20:50
so much uh time and so much outlet and
00:20:53
they're making decisions like one can
00:20:57
make a decision don't put news cont
00:20:58
content and put some other content like
00:21:00
games which is what Facebook used to do
00:21:03
so I I think um there is this obligation
00:21:06
but I think we shouldn't kid ourselves
00:21:07
in the sense that um uh this kind of
00:21:11
like uh uh um uh editorial thing has not
00:21:15
been part of the equation it's always
00:21:17
been um part of the equation as far as I
00:21:20
can tell it's it's scary to you know
00:21:23
name someone as the Arbiter of who
00:21:26
decides like which new source is
00:21:29
credible which is fake which has bad
00:21:30
intentions you never want to put that
00:21:32
much power in the hands of one person
00:21:34
especially when it comes to an outlet
00:21:36
like Facebook and look Facebook is
00:21:37
exploring lots of different options it's
00:21:38
not like they're going to have Mark
00:21:40
Zuckerberg look at all these sources and
00:21:41
make the decision um but I do worry a
00:21:44
little bit about whitelisting as well
00:21:46
because whitelisting certainly does
00:21:49
benefit media Outlets that have been
00:21:52
around for a while that have been
00:21:53
established but what about upand
00:21:55
cominging news outlets that have the
00:21:57
best intentions how do we answer
00:21:58
question I think it requires a degree of
00:22:00
flexibility and transparency um and and
00:22:03
that you know we're always going to have
00:22:05
who will watch The Watchmen kind of
00:22:06
problem but one of the ways to address
00:22:08
that is to really take advantage of the
00:22:10
democratization of information and make
00:22:12
sure that people can petition to get in
00:22:14
that who what the parameters are is is
00:22:16
clearly constructed and it's not simply
00:22:18
a black box that doesn't allow anybody
00:22:21
um entry no ability to petition that's
00:22:23
that's a dangerous scenario but but I
00:22:25
think also the The Little D
00:22:27
democratization media selling we need to
00:22:28
take advantage of you know we can't wait
00:22:30
for one person to come save us whether
00:22:31
it's the president of United States or
00:22:32
Mark Zuckerberg you know the thing about
00:22:35
being a democracy is ultimately we the
00:22:37
people are the back stop it requires
00:22:39
vigorous citizenship and you vote with
00:22:41
your eyeballs and your wallet every day
00:22:43
and and to actually take some of the
00:22:45
action like sleeping Giants did uh with
00:22:47
Breitbart which was enormously effective
00:22:50
um and again it's not about politics per
00:22:53
se right it's it's simply that if
00:22:55
advertisers want to support a
00:22:56
conservative Outlet maybe they should
00:22:57
support advertise it with say National
00:23:00
Review or the Weekly Standard and and
00:23:02
not people you know who are are
00:23:03
intentionally trying to inflame
00:23:05
divisions uh you know and and have you
00:23:08
know black crime tags on on their
00:23:09
stories as one example with Breitbart um
00:23:13
Mash notes to the Confederate flag or
00:23:14
any example you want to take um at least
00:23:17
then it's a it's a it's an exercise of
00:23:19
the democratic impulse what I think the
00:23:21
the larger point is that corporate
00:23:24
citizens consumers businesses we all
00:23:27
need to recognize that we have an
00:23:29
obligation to be part of the solution
00:23:30
here and it's not going to be pure and
00:23:32
it's not going to be simple but I just
00:23:34
wrote a book about George Washington's
00:23:35
farewell address and one of the points
00:23:37
he was making is that enlightened
00:23:39
opinion is necessary to a self-governing
00:23:41
society enlightened opinion I mean this
00:23:43
is basic to democracy and if you want to
00:23:46
pull all the way out one of the
00:23:48
challenges we're seeing to to Liberal
00:23:50
democracy as a concept is people uh
00:23:53
countries who are trying to weaken faith
00:23:54
in Liberal institutions like the Press
00:23:57
like the Integrity of democracy and that
00:23:59
that's a strategy on their part so we
00:24:02
really have to you know have a rally
00:24:04
around the flag push back on that as
00:24:06
Citizens as businesses here's something
00:24:08
cool um and related to your um
00:24:11
Enlightenment concept one of the pro
00:24:13
products that we're working on a huff
00:24:15
post to get out your question is uh
00:24:17
really cool it's in a beta phase um we
00:24:20
call it flip side and essentially what
00:24:22
we do is for um articles that we publish
00:24:25
and that are published in the world what
00:24:26
we try and do is contextualize it within
00:24:29
the broader ecosystem of the issue and
00:24:32
what we've done is we've tried to look
00:24:33
at like Twitter's API and other social
00:24:35
apis and say for this topic where this
00:24:38
article is on the Spectrum relative to
00:24:41
where the world population on the social
00:24:44
medias are it like skews kind of left it
00:24:47
skews right it skews left of center the
00:24:50
majority of activity taking place in
00:24:53
social media as it relates to this
00:24:54
specific topic is over here and this
00:24:56
article is here so people can actually
00:24:58
sort of have a mind map and
00:25:00
conceptualize like hey this article's
00:25:02
here the world seems to be over here and
00:25:04
I can at least start
00:25:06
um uh having a perspective on where my
00:25:10
thought process is in relation to where
00:25:12
all the pockets of conversation around
00:25:13
the issue is so it it essentially Maps
00:25:16
the ideological component of of the
00:25:19
article written now and it's not pure
00:25:21
science like we we do take a lot of data
00:25:23
from social feeds but it requires some
00:25:25
editorial curation of like how you
00:25:27
actually get the map but it's like a
00:25:28
step in the direction of trying to give
00:25:31
people context for where issues are and
00:25:34
where your thoughts are in relationship
00:25:35
to those issues yeah and and and look
00:25:37
but there too getting the inputs right
00:25:38
are going to be important because you
00:25:40
know you know C conservatives are always
00:25:42
going to say The Daily Beast is liberal
00:25:43
no matter how many conservative
00:25:44
columnist we have and we consciously try
00:25:46
to balance and and some and Liberals are
00:25:48
going to say that it's conservative and
00:25:50
that and that's and that's that in my
00:25:52
view that probably means we're we're
00:25:53
we're doing it about right you know but
00:25:56
but um but but it's really to start
00:25:58
getting a sense of are you getting a
00:26:00
balanced news diet how can we
00:26:01
communicate to people so that they they
00:26:03
have a sense of you know am I just
00:26:05
getting self-reinforcing messages that
00:26:07
may have less and less to do with
00:26:08
reality and not over index you know just
00:26:11
cuz someone's drinking the Kool-Aid
00:26:12
doesn't mean we need to address the
00:26:14
definition of reality to meet halfway to
00:26:17
to to their their worldview I mean there
00:26:19
is such a thing as facts and we need to
00:26:21
assert that my favorite quote that I I I
00:26:24
cannot quote enough is Danel Patrick
00:26:26
moan Everyone's entitled of their own
00:26:27
opinion not their own facts and that's
00:26:30
an important part of what we have to do
00:26:32
as journalists right now um is really
00:26:35
aggressively Embrace that ideal without
00:26:38
apology uh and and to make sure that
00:26:40
we're we're being fair and to understand
00:26:42
that our credibility comes from our
00:26:43
ability to criticize from a position of
00:26:45
Independence but that um that we can't
00:26:48
let the Tail Wag the Dog in these
00:26:50
important Civic debates we got to play
00:26:51
our game well we're out of time
00:26:53
unfortunately and I don't want to get
00:26:54
beaten off the stage we got threatened
00:26:56
back there they threatened us earlier
00:26:58
did they did but you know I just want to
00:26:59
leave you all with this I know that this
00:27:01
is an incredibly smart audience and you
00:27:03
know you're Savvy you know how to tell
00:27:05
the difference between fake news and
00:27:07
real news but you know do your part you
00:27:09
know if you notice anyone in your
00:27:10
personal life that's sharing content
00:27:13
that's um intentionally misleading and
00:27:15
it's propaganda you know talk to them in
00:27:17
the nicest way possible don't confront
00:27:19
them because that doesn't work and let
00:27:21
them know hey you know this this doesn't
00:27:23
seem right here's another source that's
00:27:25
a little more credible here's what the
00:27:26
reality is of the story we're all
00:27:28
responsible for fighting back and
00:27:30
pushing back against what happened
00:27:32
during this past election and what
00:27:34
surely will continue to happen unless we
00:27:36
find ways to solve it that's right thank
00:27:37
you everyone thank you thank you thanks
00:27:39
for reading the beach
00:27:40
[Applause]
00:27:48
too
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