Why Strategy Always Beats Talent (w/Seth Godin)
Summary
TLDRIn this podcast, Seth Godin shares insights on the vital role of strategy in achieving success as a creative or entrepreneur. He stresses that tactics alone are insufficient without a clear understanding of one's goals and the audience to be served. Seth explains that many individuals rush into taking action without first clarifying their strategy, which can lead to inefficiencies and misdirected efforts. He discusses themes from his new book, highlighting how strategic thinking can help individuals and organizations to work smarter, resonate with the right clients, and create meaningful change. The conversation also explores the relationship between time management and creative work, advocating for a proactive and thoughtful approach to one's career and life goals.
Takeaways
- 📌 Strategy is essential to avoid misdirection.
- 🎯 Understand who you serve before taking action.
- 🧠 Empathy helps shape effective strategies.
- 🚀 Choosing the right clients leads to better outcomes.
- ⏳ Time spent on strategy is never wasted.
- 💡 Work on the business, not just in it.
- 🔍 Continuously ask fundamental questions.
- 🚀 Non-linear learning reflects how we engage with ideas.
- 🎨 Creativity flourishes with a clear framework.
- 🌱 The right strategy shapes future success.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The discussion starts with the importance of strategy in any venture and how often people skip understanding it, leading to ineffective tactics. There is a sentiment that regardless of how fast you are moving, if you are not heading in the right direction, your progress is meaningless. This foundational understanding of strategy is shared by various individuals across different fields, highlighting a common neglect for it.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Seth Godin is introduced as a guest who shares insights from his new book on strategy. He recalls a past meeting with the host, emphasizing the significance of a comprehensive strategy over mere tactical approaches. Writing the book serves as a point of discussion about strategies in marketing, advertising, and overall purpose.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Godin discusses the unconventional approach of his book using riffs instead of structured chapters to convey ideas. He argues that clear frameworks might not be beneficial for those dealing with less understood concepts like strategy, hence the loose format helps in exploring multifaceted conversations and learning the core message organically.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
The conversation shifts to the metrics of progress, where Godin stresses that understanding who you are serving and what change you are trying to create forms the essence of a solid strategy. It's critical to plan your approach rather than just imitate tactics from others, leading to better client relationships and outcomes.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Godin further expands on the importance of recognizing and choosing your clients wisely, explaining that improving your standing as a creator involves attracting the right clientele instead of the average ones. He illustrates this with a wedding photographer example to help understand how strategic thinking directly leads to better outcomes.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
There's an emphasis placed on time management and how creatives often have a toxic relationship with time, mistaking busy work for productivity. Godin points out that significant decisions should ideally come before the frantic execution of tasks to ensure that energy is spent wisely on desired outcomes instead of on mediocrity.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
The complex relationship between creativity, strategy, and outcomes is explored, noting how embracing empathy leads to a better understanding of what clients want, contrary to merely expressing creative freedom without context. Godin emphasizes the need to cultivate meaningful connections with clients, rooted in both empathy and best practices.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:35
The discussion wraps up with reflections on the book and Godin's approach to writing as a means of caring for one’s work and audience. He reiterates the goal of sparking conversations on strategic thinking, not just for book sales but as a broader mission to aid the creative community in making informed choices.
Mind Map
Video Q&A
Why is having a strategy important?
Having a strategy is crucial because it helps you understand your direction and the changes you want to make before rushing into tactics.
What can happen if you skip strategy?
Skipping strategy can lead to wasted efforts and superficial actions without meaningful impact.
How can one choose clients strategically?
Choose clients by understanding who you serve and what unique problems you can solve for them, rather than just accepting anyone.
What did Seth Godin mean by 'you are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic'?
This phrase emphasizes personal responsibility for one's situation; rather than seeing yourself as a victim of circumstances, recognize your active role in shaping outcomes.
How does empathy relate to strategy?
Empathy is essential in strategy as it helps you understand the needs and desires of those you wish to serve.
What is the first step to take in strategic thinking?
Begin by clearly identifying who you are serving and the specific change you want to create.
Why is it important to work 'on' the business rather than just 'in' the business?
Working on the business involves strategic planning and decision-making that can lead to overall improvement, rather than just focusing on daily tasks.
Why did Seth choose a non-linear format for his book?
He chose a non-linear format to reflect the way people learn and to allow flexibility in how readers engage with the content.
What is a key takeaway from this podcast?
A vital takeaway is the importance of asking fundamental questions before taking actions, such as 'What do I really want to achieve?'
How does the book relate to creative work?
The book emphasizes that creative work requires intentional strategy and thoughtful planning to ensure meaningful outcomes.
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- 00:00:00strategy says doesn't matter how fast
- 00:00:02you're going if you're going in the
- 00:00:03wrong direction and figuring out where
- 00:00:07the prevailing winds are figuring out
- 00:00:10who we're trying to help getting that
- 00:00:12part clear before we start racing around
- 00:00:15with all the tactics and the clicking
- 00:00:16and the posting is so important and yet
- 00:00:20people skip it billionaires I know Skip
- 00:00:22it nonprofit leaders I know Skip it
- 00:00:25seven-year-olds skip it and we got
- 00:00:27indoctrinated to skip the strategy and
- 00:00:30it just felt to me like people didn't
- 00:00:32understand what strategy was and maybe I
- 00:00:34could help
- 00:00:37[Music]
- 00:00:39them Seth Goen you're on the podcast
- 00:00:42again thank you for joining me joining
- 00:00:45us our audience uh of listeners they're
- 00:00:49super big fans of yours and you're back
- 00:00:51on the show thank you for being here you
- 00:00:53know I would be on the show Even if you
- 00:00:55forgot to hit record just so we could
- 00:00:57chat you remember um
- 00:01:00not too long ago sitting in a cafe in uh
- 00:01:04set somewhere on the upper west side
- 00:01:06with the slippery floor yeah with the
- 00:01:08slippery floor and uh you beaming went
- 00:01:13into your backpack and pulled out a
- 00:01:15stack of paper and the stack of paper I
- 00:01:17have that stack of paper with me right
- 00:01:19here um for the people who are who are
- 00:01:22listening you can't see this but it is a
- 00:01:25what is this uh 17 by 11 y yeah 17 by 11
- 00:01:30print out of your new book before it was
- 00:01:33published and this is one of the most
- 00:01:37generous um to me your most generous
- 00:01:42offerings I when you said you were
- 00:01:44writing a book on strategy it I was like
- 00:01:47I was very baffled I'm like what is a
- 00:01:49book on strategy about and then I'm you
- 00:01:52know 25 pages in and it all flicks for
- 00:01:55me that this is this is the best thing
- 00:01:58you could ever write about why did you
- 00:01:59decide to write about this in your next
- 00:02:02book well as you know uh writing a book
- 00:02:06isn't what it used to be it's this uh
- 00:02:09five minutes of inspiration followed by
- 00:02:11a year of
- 00:02:12slog
- 00:02:14and uh part of they don't tell you in
- 00:02:16writing school right that's correct part
- 00:02:18of the reason I do it truly is so I can
- 00:02:21have conversations like this with people
- 00:02:22like you part of the reason I do it is
- 00:02:25because I want other people to talk
- 00:02:27about it and a book is a signal
- 00:02:30it's a signal that says this isn't a
- 00:02:32blog post it's not a YouTube video it's
- 00:02:35this document it demands to be rejected
- 00:02:39or absorbed or
- 00:02:40discussed and what I found like you I
- 00:02:45have peers and friends who ask me
- 00:02:47questions advice I don't do any coaching
- 00:02:49or Consulting but what I found is people
- 00:02:52would come to me with marketing
- 00:02:54questions that weren't marketing
- 00:02:55questions they were strategy questions
- 00:02:57they would come to me with uh
- 00:02:59philosophical questions that were
- 00:03:00strategy questions or whatever their
- 00:03:03frustration was strategy says doesn't
- 00:03:06matter how fast you're going if you're
- 00:03:07going in the wrong direction and
- 00:03:11figuring out where the prevailing winds
- 00:03:13are figuring out who we're trying to
- 00:03:15help getting that part clear before we
- 00:03:18start racing around with all the tactics
- 00:03:20and the clicking and the posting is so
- 00:03:23important and yet people skip it
- 00:03:26billionaires I know Skip it nonprofit
- 00:03:28leaders I know skip skip it 7-year-olds
- 00:03:31skip it and we got indoctrinated to skip
- 00:03:34the strategy and it just felt to me like
- 00:03:37people didn't understand what strategy
- 00:03:38was and maybe I could help them well
- 00:03:41that is about a clear lens as I've ever
- 00:03:43heard on concept of strategy especially
- 00:03:45that it's relevant to you know whether
- 00:03:48you're seven or 70 and whether you're a
- 00:03:49billionaire or you're just trying to get
- 00:03:51your own you know your your business off
- 00:03:53the ground is it the equivalent of if
- 00:03:57you're going to chop down a tree you
- 00:03:59need to spend some time sharpening your
- 00:04:00axe first rather than just chopping or
- 00:04:03is it slightly different than that well
- 00:04:07I love a good metaphor part of it is if
- 00:04:10you're going to chop down a tree it
- 00:04:11helps to plan 20 years in advance so you
- 00:04:13can plant a tree and part of it is
- 00:04:17figuring out uh which kind of tree to
- 00:04:20chop down because if you're making a
- 00:04:21Cherrywood canoe paddle and you chop
- 00:04:23down a pine tree you're out of luck so
- 00:04:26yeah sharpening the ax is a good tactic
- 00:04:29yeah but a strategy is why do we have an
- 00:04:32axe at all and why this tree and why
- 00:04:35today and what are we here to do and
- 00:04:37what change are we trying to make and so
- 00:04:41you know since you made me start
- 00:04:43thinking of trees who chopped down the
- 00:04:45last Tree on Easter Island which then
- 00:04:48led to the demise of the entire
- 00:04:50population didn't they see that there
- 00:04:52was only one tree left well another
- 00:04:54interesting question is who chopped down
- 00:04:56the H hundredth from the last Tree on
- 00:04:58Easter Island Because by the time
- 00:05:00there's only one tree left it's probably
- 00:05:01too late and there's an ecosystem all
- 00:05:04around us sometimes it's an actual
- 00:05:06ecosystem with trees sometimes it's an
- 00:05:08ecosystem filled with social media or
- 00:05:10competitors or
- 00:05:11whatever do we understand that tomorrow
- 00:05:15is going to be a little like today but
- 00:05:17different and what's going to grow and
- 00:05:19how it's going to shift this is super
- 00:05:22juicy things and you know when I think
- 00:05:25about the seminal breakthrough business
- 00:05:28that you started
- 00:05:30it worked partly because of your magic
- 00:05:32but also because you saw the systems you
- 00:05:35saw how media was changing you saw the
- 00:05:38rise of the independent freelancer you
- 00:05:40saw that people were craving not just
- 00:05:43craft but connection all of that was an
- 00:05:46insatiable desire that you showed up to
- 00:05:48fill and other people showed up and said
- 00:05:52I got a hack for today but that's not as
- 00:05:54good as having a
- 00:05:56strategy so I think for a lot of people
- 00:06:00uh who are listening or watching the
- 00:06:02concept of a
- 00:06:04strategy
- 00:06:06is fuzzy it's obscure it's like you know
- 00:06:10they go right into the tactic like cool
- 00:06:12I see my peers posting on social media
- 00:06:15therefore I should post on social media
- 00:06:17as an example uh that you've already
- 00:06:20articulated and yet the same thing is
- 00:06:22true with a million other things well
- 00:06:23they I see that I I have this they have
- 00:06:26this camera and they're really good or
- 00:06:27further along in their Journey than I so
- 00:06:30I need to have that type of camera or
- 00:06:32they're having you know they're doing
- 00:06:33these kinds of media uh and therefore I
- 00:06:36need to do these kinds of media and so
- 00:06:38it's very much like a culture of mimesis
- 00:06:40where we're just imitating other what we
- 00:06:42see other people doing and then you know
- 00:06:44if you put a pin in that the way that
- 00:06:47most every artist author entrepreneur
- 00:06:52breaks through is from
- 00:06:55strategically doing something different
- 00:06:58so how do we get out from underneath
- 00:07:01what most people who are listening
- 00:07:02watching run to which is the
- 00:07:05tactic what you know what advice would
- 00:07:08you give us to get started thinking
- 00:07:12strategically first before we even right
- 00:07:15you know record our first video for
- 00:07:17example so I'm going to assert that most
- 00:07:20of the people who are listening see
- 00:07:22themselves as creatives and are probably
- 00:07:25Freelancers or soloists yep and if that
- 00:07:29is you two things first of all you
- 00:07:32signed up to do things that are creative
- 00:07:34so finding a creative strategy without a
- 00:07:36rule book and a list of tactics should
- 00:07:38probably be okay with you because you
- 00:07:40said you wanted to be a creative and
- 00:07:43second the only way for you to have
- 00:07:47achievement for you to advance is not to
- 00:07:49work more hours because you can't it's
- 00:07:52to get better clients better clients
- 00:07:55demand more talk about you more come
- 00:07:58back more often pay you more and you
- 00:08:00don't get better clients by doing a
- 00:08:02really good job for bad
- 00:08:04clients you get better clients by
- 00:08:06creating the conditions for better
- 00:08:08clients to seek you
- 00:08:10out so the reason that you need a
- 00:08:13strategy is because what you're doing
- 00:08:15right now is getting you the clients
- 00:08:17you're getting right now and a strategy
- 00:08:20says here's how I'm going to find a
- 00:08:23different path to get a different
- 00:08:24outcome the people I seek to serve so
- 00:08:27let's just pick a wedding photographer
- 00:08:30if you're a wedding photographer and
- 00:08:31you're bottom feeding what you're doing
- 00:08:33is you're saying if you're a bride and
- 00:08:36you want to pick me here I am you can
- 00:08:37pick anyone but please pick me and
- 00:08:40you're going to end up with
- 00:08:43indiscriminate customers who are going
- 00:08:46to pay you average and demand average on
- 00:08:49the other hand if you say I specialize
- 00:08:52in solving this problem for this kind of
- 00:08:55bride and groom or bride and bride or
- 00:08:57groom and groom that I work in this way
- 00:09:00or in this place for these kinds of
- 00:09:02customers this is an untapped place
- 00:09:05where once I start doing it people go oh
- 00:09:07that's a whole category I didn't even
- 00:09:08know about it that can belong to you but
- 00:09:12you're not going to be able to do it by
- 00:09:13copying someone you're going to do it by
- 00:09:15seeing a problem and finding a solution
- 00:09:18to it that's strategy that's part of the
- 00:09:23and I guess to what would you respond or
- 00:09:26how would you respond if I
- 00:09:28said but isn't it good to do something
- 00:09:30instead of nothing because most people
- 00:09:32try and solve all their problems from
- 00:09:34the couch they'll sit there and try and
- 00:09:36just fast forward all the Perfect
- 00:09:39Solutions a b c and d and you know how
- 00:09:42do you reconcile the fact that I'm
- 00:09:44trying to get people to do something
- 00:09:45instead of nothing and the something
- 00:09:47ends up usually being a tactic is it
- 00:09:50okay to do a tactic F first realize that
- 00:09:52you're excited about these tactics and
- 00:09:54then press pause and say okay let me
- 00:09:56zoom out say what am I doing here or do
- 00:09:58we always need
- 00:10:00to be thoughtful and start with the
- 00:10:02first step first like reconcile those
- 00:10:05things for me okay so you need a craft
- 00:10:07and you need a skill and you can develop
- 00:10:11your craft and you can develop your
- 00:10:12skill without getting paid for it and so
- 00:10:16we need to be busy all the time getting
- 00:10:19better at our craft and our skill but it
- 00:10:22doesn't make sense to do mediocre crap
- 00:10:25work for mediocre clients we don't want
- 00:10:27more of just because we don't have
- 00:10:29anything else booked for
- 00:10:31Tuesday that if we can have the guts to
- 00:10:34say I'd rather work on my own or do
- 00:10:38charity work for the zoo or the local
- 00:10:40nonprofit for free then take this
- 00:10:42mediocre client on Tuesday we have just
- 00:10:46put ourselves on the hook on the spot
- 00:10:49because we said look I'm only going to
- 00:10:51get this Tuesday once and I have a bar
- 00:10:54and if you're not above the bar I'm
- 00:10:56going to pay myself to work on Tuesday
- 00:11:00because I need to be able to say no to
- 00:11:02people if you're not saying no to people
- 00:11:04then you don't stand for
- 00:11:06anything there's a phrase you're either
- 00:11:09working in the business or on the
- 00:11:11business and is it fair that that
- 00:11:14strategy is is working on the business
- 00:11:18and doing social media posts and doing
- 00:11:20your craft is working in the business
- 00:11:22would you make that distinction yes
- 00:11:24that's a great distinction it's the
- 00:11:25single best page in the book The emyth
- 00:11:27Revisited
- 00:11:29and uh what he means by yeah looking for
- 00:11:33it while you're talking when you work on
- 00:11:36the business you are being the
- 00:11:39consultant the board of directors the
- 00:11:41CEO you are figuring out the structures
- 00:11:44so that your best employee doesn't waste
- 00:11:47her time when you're working in the
- 00:11:50business you're the best employee doing
- 00:11:52your job and as someone who's been a
- 00:11:54freelancer often on for 40 years
- 00:11:57particularly when times are tough we
- 00:11:59find ourselves leaning in to working in
- 00:12:01the business as much as we possibly can
- 00:12:04thinking that's going to solve the
- 00:12:05problem but 10 minutes of working on the
- 00:12:08business can be
- 00:12:11transformative because in those 10
- 00:12:13minutes you can say you know what I
- 00:12:15don't need to keep writing mediocre copy
- 00:12:16I'm just going to hire claw. to do it
- 00:12:18for me and I just save myself an hour a
- 00:12:21day which I'm going to go spend doing
- 00:12:22something hard right that decision is
- 00:12:27not easy to make because you're feeling
- 00:12:30stressed and you just want to do
- 00:12:31something all day to keep up but the
- 00:12:34short version of this is a lot of people
- 00:12:36listening to this want to have a job
- 00:12:37without a boss and if that's what you
- 00:12:40signed up for I have to inform you you
- 00:12:42probably have a really really lousy boss
- 00:12:45someone who wakes you up in the middle
- 00:12:46of the night and says you're not doing a
- 00:12:47good job somebody who's undermining you
- 00:12:50somebody who doesn't appreciate you and
- 00:12:51it's you so you should probably get a
- 00:12:54better boss someone who you deserve I
- 00:12:57have just finished writing about uh
- 00:12:59there's a section on time and my new
- 00:13:01book and time comes up consistently and
- 00:13:04here's the so I I this is sort of my
- 00:13:07favorite artifact this gigantic print
- 00:13:10out that I've got here and this is gonna
- 00:13:11I'm gonna this is actually going to be
- 00:13:13on my bookshelf and I've course I have
- 00:13:15the the actual book which is beautiful
- 00:13:18and I love the little debossing that
- 00:13:20you've got on the front great job it's
- 00:13:21beautiful uh and as I I I have a number
- 00:13:24of sections marked throughout the book
- 00:13:26you also have written about time quite a
- 00:13:29bit and it turns out that we creators
- 00:13:33entrepreneurs solopreneurs small
- 00:13:35business owners we have a pretty um I
- 00:13:40might use the word toxic I'm going to
- 00:13:41try it out and see how see how it lands
- 00:13:44kind of a toxic relationship with time
- 00:13:46not dissimilar to what we just talked
- 00:13:48about you're working on the business or
- 00:13:49in the business we wake up at 3: in the
- 00:13:51morning we know we need to be sleeping
- 00:13:53but our you know that that unhealthy
- 00:13:56part of our brain is telling us that
- 00:13:57we're not doing a good job
- 00:13:59um I was wondering if you could just
- 00:14:01talk a little bit about the relationship
- 00:14:05between uh us as solopreneurs
- 00:14:07entrepreneurs creators and and time it's
- 00:14:10a really consistent theme here you got
- 00:14:11one section for example 99 that I've got
- 00:14:14marked here which is time isn't free
- 00:14:17when we spend an hour reading a book
- 00:14:19it's an hour we didn't spend listening
- 00:14:21to speed metal when we take on one
- 00:14:24client we've chosen not to pursue
- 00:14:27different options opportunity cost is
- 00:14:30real and as we've been given more access
- 00:14:33more tools more opportunities the costs
- 00:14:36continue to increase yeah um so let's
- 00:14:40try this thought experiment it's
- 00:14:432024 write a letter to the U of 2019 5
- 00:14:47years ago thanking that person for
- 00:14:50something they did five years ago for
- 00:14:53you today what was that decision that
- 00:14:56client they took that client they fired
- 00:14:58that skill they learned 5 years ago that
- 00:15:01you are so grateful is part of your
- 00:15:04quiver now it's pretty easy to imagine
- 00:15:07the best decisions that you made that
- 00:15:09contributed to
- 00:15:11that
- 00:15:12well 5 years from now the you of then
- 00:15:17can write a letter to you
- 00:15:19today what will be they be thanking you
- 00:15:22for right will they be thanking you for
- 00:15:25spending 10 extra minutes sharpening all
- 00:15:27the pencils and making sure they're in
- 00:15:28exactly the right order will they be
- 00:15:30thanking you I still thank the me of 20
- 00:15:33years ago for firing my biggest client
- 00:15:36because they were horrible they sent a
- 00:15:39lawyer to every meeting they were
- 00:15:40undermining us they were doing
- 00:15:42everything they could to get rid of us
- 00:15:45and I had the legal right to stay and
- 00:15:47keep all the revenue that we were
- 00:15:49promised and I sat with my team there
- 00:15:51were nine of us at the time I said these
- 00:15:54guys are onethird of our revenue and
- 00:15:57they are turning us into the kind of
- 00:15:58group group that's good at working with
- 00:16:00lousy
- 00:16:01clients I'm not happy about that I would
- 00:16:04like to fire them and the group to their
- 00:16:07credit said go for it so I called them
- 00:16:10up and I said you can keep all the
- 00:16:11royalties we never want to see you again
- 00:16:14you got what you wanted you
- 00:16:15win and in the next 60 days we replaced
- 00:16:20all of the Lost business plus extra wow
- 00:16:23because we felt so relieved at what we
- 00:16:26had done and how willing work could be
- 00:16:29again that we were on fire well if I
- 00:16:34hadn't done that there's no question I
- 00:16:36would not be on this call today and
- 00:16:38we've all we all have things like that
- 00:16:40right to me this is the uh the
- 00:16:43fundamental there's let's keep poking at
- 00:16:45this time thing this we believe that
- 00:16:48time is this ongoing sort of conveyor
- 00:16:51belt marching us towards our death that
- 00:16:54is always operating in the background
- 00:16:56and yet as you can experience as you
- 00:16:58just shared
- 00:17:00when you're working for a terrible
- 00:17:02client doing work that is not fulfilling
- 00:17:05largely based on the environment that
- 00:17:07that client that that your relationship
- 00:17:09with that client creates time feels one
- 00:17:13way and I'd imagine when you and the
- 00:17:16team freed up from that worked with
- 00:17:19other clients replaced the revenue did
- 00:17:22work you love for people that you
- 00:17:23enjoyed being around that you
- 00:17:26experienced I'll say that work but also
- 00:17:29probably life a little differently is
- 00:17:32that a stretch oh no that's it and again
- 00:17:36back to hiring the best boss you can
- 00:17:38this idea of being a working creative
- 00:17:41has two parts number one you got to pay
- 00:17:43the bills because when you run out of
- 00:17:44money you're out but number two you have
- 00:17:48to make it worth doing when you run out
- 00:17:50of time you're also out so don't run out
- 00:17:53of money and don't run out of time but
- 00:17:54the way you run out of time is by
- 00:17:56wasting time doing tasks ask S as
- 00:18:00opposed to your craft your art and
- 00:18:03making a change happen so strategy
- 00:18:05begins with a very simple two part two
- 00:18:09questions one who exactly am I here for
- 00:18:12and what is the change I seek to make so
- 00:18:14the who isn't someone's name necessarily
- 00:18:17it's what do they believe what do they
- 00:18:18seek what do they want so in Chicago
- 00:18:22there's a really great dive bar bar that
- 00:18:24looks like it's out of a movie called
- 00:18:25The Green Mill and I'm not sure if
- 00:18:28Patricia's still there
- 00:18:29but for years and years on Mondays this
- 00:18:32bar basically gave themselves over to
- 00:18:34Patricia Barber Patricia Barber is a
- 00:18:37worldclass jazz pianist and her Trio
- 00:18:40would come and play for five or six
- 00:18:43hours every Monday and the time I went
- 00:18:46there the guy sitting next to me had
- 00:18:47flown in from Mumbai for the show now
- 00:18:50there's only a hundred people in the
- 00:18:54room it's Patricia's living room and she
- 00:18:56gets to do her work no one is in the
- 00:18:59back going Play
- 00:19:00Freebird because they are there for her
- 00:19:04and she's there for them and there are
- 00:19:07other Jazz musicians maybe who have
- 00:19:09plenty of skill who instead just do
- 00:19:12whatever is next on their gig sheet and
- 00:19:15they're not having the same sort of
- 00:19:17magic and the same sort of career cuz
- 00:19:19she picked her customers and they didn't
- 00:19:22when you pick your customers you pick
- 00:19:24your future it feels there's someone
- 00:19:26listening right now for whom that feels
- 00:19:28like like a thousand miles away because
- 00:19:31there's a lot of desperation between
- 00:19:34where they are and where they feel like
- 00:19:35they could be in choosing their
- 00:19:39customers rather than their customers
- 00:19:41choosing them and that's a scary Gap yep
- 00:19:46so strategically speaking what's the
- 00:19:50first step in helping people besides
- 00:19:52this the awareness because let's assume
- 00:19:54that the awareness is this right what's
- 00:19:56the First Step Beyond the awareness that
- 00:19:59oh my God I need to
- 00:20:02choose my clients and choose them
- 00:20:05intelligently and that's actually the
- 00:20:07difference between where I am now where
- 00:20:08I want to be so pressfield's resistance
- 00:20:11is key here yeah because if you're on
- 00:20:13the hook then you are responsible you
- 00:20:17and I have both seen portfolios from
- 00:20:19photographers who say well under
- 00:20:21circumstances the best I could do
- 00:20:23because this is what the client
- 00:20:24wanted okay where's the work you did
- 00:20:27when you were the client
- 00:20:29right go go find a nonprofit and say I'm
- 00:20:31going to do a portfolio shoot for you
- 00:20:34and for free and this is what I'm going
- 00:20:36to make right where's the work when you
- 00:20:39were busking on a street corner and
- 00:20:41could play any songs you wanted what did
- 00:20:43that sound like and being able to say I
- 00:20:48made this and not have to explain how
- 00:20:50much you got paid for it begins this
- 00:20:53journey of what do you actually stand
- 00:20:56for and who are you going to turn away
- 00:20:59when we turn someone away we're not
- 00:21:00insulting them particularly if we send
- 00:21:02them to a worthy peer we're just saying
- 00:21:05I get you I see what you want that's not
- 00:21:07what we do we do this but it's very
- 00:21:11scary to say we do this I was at a
- 00:21:13wedding a couple weeks ago and they had
- 00:21:15a standard Long Island DJ uh I don't
- 00:21:18know why and
- 00:21:21um it was right out of a bad movie so
- 00:21:24ladies and gentlemen meet the family the
- 00:21:26bride and groom and then they play We
- 00:21:27Are Family
- 00:21:29like you became a DJ to do
- 00:21:32that and so even when people like that
- 00:21:37have the freedom to innovate they don't
- 00:21:40because they've been so browbeaten by
- 00:21:42nervous clients and they don't have
- 00:21:45enough Cycles under their belt to say no
- 00:21:47no I'm doing it this way trust me and
- 00:21:51that is why you set out to do this in
- 00:21:53the first place but you forgot how much
- 00:21:54of this is about forgetting who we are
- 00:21:58yeah
- 00:21:59happens to me happens to me all the time
- 00:22:02yeah and you know again that I I
- 00:22:05I part of when I first started reading
- 00:22:09the book it was like what am I reading
- 00:22:13here and then I it hit me like a truck
- 00:22:15it's like this this is the it's
- 00:22:19basically a road map for all the
- 00:22:21important questions that we have
- 00:22:23forgotten to ask
- 00:22:25ourselves like why am I doing this
- 00:22:29what am I actually doing here you know I
- 00:22:32writing a book is one thing but writing
- 00:22:34a book starts out with writing a
- 00:22:36sentence and writing a you know a
- 00:22:37journal entry and you know that to me
- 00:22:40that's part of what so many um people in
- 00:22:44my community we lose track we forget to
- 00:22:47ask ourselves the most important
- 00:22:49questions and we're halfway down you
- 00:22:51know halfway through a a weekend of just
- 00:22:54non-stop working or we're halfway
- 00:22:55through with the project or we're
- 00:22:56halfway through and we haven't even
- 00:23:00like we haven't even asked ourselves the
- 00:23:03most important questions and it's just
- 00:23:06it's a sort of like there's an Awakening
- 00:23:08that I felt in this book
- 00:23:11that I guess if this book is there to
- 00:23:15remind us you know what else can we do
- 00:23:18to remember this is all this stuff that
- 00:23:21is simple but not easy yeah that that
- 00:23:24that whenever you start something you
- 00:23:26should ask these fundamental questions
- 00:23:28how do we how do we like embed this in
- 00:23:32our psychology in our process so that we
- 00:23:35stop making the same mistakes of just
- 00:23:38doing stuff without thinking about it
- 00:23:40okay so there's two surprising twists in
- 00:23:42the story now and the first one is
- 00:23:46empathy that often someone who sees
- 00:23:50themselves as a Creator begins with a
- 00:23:53lack of empathy this is the song in my
- 00:23:55head I'm going to play it and I should
- 00:23:59get picked by Columbia Records that this
- 00:24:02is the painting I made and I'm going to
- 00:24:04paint it and a collector should buy it I
- 00:24:07am projecting on other people what they
- 00:24:10should want and when we start out that
- 00:24:13way we are almost always punched in the
- 00:24:15face
- 00:24:16repeatedly because the world says
- 00:24:19Nah because we're not them and they're
- 00:24:23not us and the second part of it which
- 00:24:27goes with the first part is T that if
- 00:24:29we're going to try to make a change
- 00:24:31happen we have to intentionally create
- 00:24:34tension fear of missing out fear of
- 00:24:37being left behind fear of you might not
- 00:24:40get in when we put those two things
- 00:24:42together what we see is that to do
- 00:24:45creative work is to do something that
- 00:24:46doesn't feel easy for most people which
- 00:24:50is create the conditions with empathy
- 00:24:53for people to feel the tension that
- 00:24:56causes them to say yes M so if you're a
- 00:25:00a graphic artist and you uh are waiting
- 00:25:04to get picked by a gallerist on in SoHo
- 00:25:06in New York so you can be famous they're
- 00:25:09not going to pick you because they got a
- 00:25:11long list of people who know how to
- 00:25:13paint in front of you and they're not
- 00:25:14going to pick you on the other hand if
- 00:25:18you're shepher fairy and you start
- 00:25:22putting uh posters all around so often
- 00:25:25that you get arrested 30 times and then
- 00:25:27you create the iconography for one of
- 00:25:30the most important presidential
- 00:25:31elections in history the gallerists
- 00:25:34start calling
- 00:25:35you because you created the conditions
- 00:25:38for them to get what they want which is
- 00:25:40a piece of somebody who stands for
- 00:25:42something and so Shephard's tactics
- 00:25:45aren't the point here the point is
- 00:25:49you're not going to get picked by The
- 00:25:51Establishment to have a job without a
- 00:25:52boss but you can invent your own
- 00:25:55establishment by creating the situation
- 00:25:58where the people you seek to serve show
- 00:26:01up and say oh I'm glad you're here yeah
- 00:26:04I don't know anybody who speaks in like
- 00:26:07I mean let's just let's just be real
- 00:26:09like you you write in these
- 00:26:12like the most poignant like laser beam
- 00:26:16and this is one of my favorite I'll just
- 00:26:17give a little context here so the book
- 00:26:20has no page numbers folks it has only
- 00:26:23stories essentially um what would you
- 00:26:26call them would you call each one of
- 00:26:28those a story or how you riffs okay
- 00:26:31riffs yeah riffs so they're all there's
- 00:26:34uh they're they're numbered by riffs and
- 00:26:38each of these 297 of them 297 that's
- 00:26:42right uh 297 of them and each of these
- 00:26:46riffs it if you think he just writes
- 00:26:49like that then you have a conversation
- 00:26:51like this and you realize that Seth
- 00:26:53talks in in riffs that are every one of
- 00:26:56its own could be an entire blog post or
- 00:26:59an entire podcast episode um can you
- 00:27:03tell me why you decided to just you know
- 00:27:06if form follows function or function
- 00:27:08follows form like what what's what's
- 00:27:10your argument for why the I mean first
- 00:27:13of all I think it's freaking genius but
- 00:27:15how did you land on this and I remember
- 00:27:17sitting at the cafe and in on the upper
- 00:27:20west side and you're like I don't have
- 00:27:21page numbers and I was like what and
- 00:27:25then of course it makes perfect sense
- 00:27:26you don't need page numbers because
- 00:27:28you know you just it's like you have
- 00:27:31page numbers but within the text all
- 00:27:32right so context there what
- 00:27:36why uh riffs and not do it in an obvious
- 00:27:40order with an obvious table of contents
- 00:27:43so if you think about how you learned
- 00:27:45about the vegetables your mom did not
- 00:27:48say when you were three today's
- 00:27:49vegetable day and start with artichokes
- 00:27:52and work her way through to zucchini
- 00:27:55what happened was over the course of
- 00:27:56years you bumped into different
- 00:27:58vegetables that's the way we learn
- 00:28:00everything we learn things in layers not
- 00:28:03all the things in one category so I was
- 00:28:06writing about systems but I needed to
- 00:28:07talk about games and I was writing about
- 00:28:09games but I need to talk about empathy
- 00:28:10so I'm like I'm not going to force
- 00:28:12myself into a taxonomy here I'm going to
- 00:28:15teach people the way many people learn
- 00:28:18then the second thing was uh for your
- 00:28:22amazing book for my book for lots of
- 00:28:24books more than half the sales are
- 00:28:26either Kindle or audiobook M there are
- 00:28:29no page numbers on the Kindle and there
- 00:28:31are no page numbers on an Audi book so
- 00:28:33how are you going to talk to somebody
- 00:28:35about the Riff number 147 so I'm going
- 00:28:38to number riff 147 and by taking out the
- 00:28:41page numbers I was trying to send a
- 00:28:43signal that says
- 00:28:46please you know order by number tell me
- 00:28:48which riff you want to talk about let's
- 00:28:50talk about that one when you talked
- 00:28:53about um systems for example systems
- 00:28:58thinking I I think of you as a
- 00:29:01very systemic thinker like when we have
- 00:29:05a
- 00:29:05conversation there's almost always a
- 00:29:08framework for that conversation there's
- 00:29:10context there's know all this
- 00:29:13scaffolding around it which you know I
- 00:29:16think this is the secret to the most
- 00:29:18creative people I know that they work
- 00:29:19within a framework and that's what
- 00:29:21allows the creativity to flow and
- 00:29:24yet you know you could when then when
- 00:29:27you when you think think of that there's
- 00:29:28299 riffs like that doesn't feel like a
- 00:29:32framework where is the um the nice
- 00:29:35little tidy what is it called when you
- 00:29:38have the first letter of starts with
- 00:29:40uh like my framework for Creative
- 00:29:43calling was idea imagine design like
- 00:29:46that's that's like Scaffolding in a
- 00:29:49nutshell and you are the most sort of
- 00:29:52one of the most structured thinkers that
- 00:29:53I know and the book has essentially no
- 00:29:57scaffolding
- 00:29:58yeah how do we reconcile those things
- 00:30:00it's a it's a great point and first to
- 00:30:03anyone who's ever had a conversation
- 00:30:04with me I apologize if I'm annoying
- 00:30:07because sometimes it's annoying that
- 00:30:08someone has to have a structure totally
- 00:30:11but uh the mini scaffolding is that
- 00:30:14strategy has four components and I talk
- 00:30:17about that repeatedly what the four
- 00:30:19components are but what I found is the
- 00:30:24amount of throat clearing and hand
- 00:30:26waving I had to do to articulate the
- 00:30:30framework was the
- 00:30:32book and um in you know I've had conver
- 00:30:36I've had conversations about this book a
- 00:30:38lot lately with some very sophisticated
- 00:30:41and some very unsophisticated people and
- 00:30:45I'm constantly amazed at how often
- 00:30:47they're surprised by the stuff I'm
- 00:30:49talking about and it feels to me like a
- 00:30:54framework is most useful when we're
- 00:30:57talking about something that isn't
- 00:30:59surprising like if I was going to
- 00:31:01analyze bass
- 00:31:03fishing I think the framework of pick
- 00:31:06your Lake pick your lure pick your boat
- 00:31:09pick your time of day we could like
- 00:31:11break it all down because I don't have
- 00:31:12to explain to you what a fish is but
- 00:31:14what I discovered here is there was so
- 00:31:16little common understanding of what I
- 00:31:19was talking about that laying out the
- 00:31:22framework wasn't providing
- 00:31:24scaffolding and this is a challenge
- 00:31:27because if my goal was to sell as many
- 00:31:29books as possible I put way too many
- 00:31:33ideas in one book the best way to sell
- 00:31:35as many books as possible is to tell
- 00:31:37people things they already know and make
- 00:31:39it a really clear uh framework that they
- 00:31:43can tell their friends and I am long
- 00:31:46past trying to sell as many books as
- 00:31:48possible I'm like this is too much work
- 00:31:50to do that I just want to write a great
- 00:31:51book but here's the twist that I just
- 00:31:54have to put an exclamation point behind
- 00:31:56is like this is we're tired of the
- 00:31:58former yeah like this for this is this
- 00:32:01is like really interesting food for an
- 00:32:04interested brain because the linear uh
- 00:32:08framework that I could recite at a
- 00:32:10cocktail party is to me is positively
- 00:32:13uninteresting and I will just say like I
- 00:32:15I went away from that I did that in 2019
- 00:32:18and I didn't do it in my most recent
- 00:32:19book but this is sort of like that on
- 00:32:21steroids for the creative uh interested
- 00:32:24curious person the what's coming next I
- 00:32:27have no idea is absolutely intoxicating
- 00:32:31to me that's part of what makes it a a
- 00:32:33page Turner you know rarely are business
- 00:32:36books page Turners and I don't even know
- 00:32:39this like I wouldn't even say this is a
- 00:32:41business book like that's I don't even
- 00:32:42know what category it is what byc code
- 00:32:44it doesn't matter but like how do you
- 00:32:47think of this book like do you think of
- 00:32:48it as a business book do you think of it
- 00:32:50as it's sort of like a life book for me
- 00:32:52but what you know how do you think about
- 00:32:54it on on a good day I see myself as an
- 00:32:57optometrist or an optician or something
- 00:32:59like that uh there's a book Keith jstone
- 00:33:02wrote in the early 1960s called
- 00:33:05impro and I strongly recommend it Keith
- 00:33:08uh who just passed away a couple months
- 00:33:11ago uh was a teacher of theater and he
- 00:33:15articulated a thesis his thesis is every
- 00:33:18interaction in the theater is like every
- 00:33:21interaction real life it's about
- 00:33:23status at the end of every scene every
- 00:33:26interaction someone's going to move up
- 00:33:28and someone's going to move down and if
- 00:33:30you watch the videos of world leaders
- 00:33:33hand shaking you see an example of this
- 00:33:36who won the handshake what's all of it
- 00:33:39as soon as you are 25 pages into that
- 00:33:42book you will never see the world again
- 00:33:44the same
- 00:33:45way that's what that's what I'm going
- 00:33:48for right that was my experience exactly
- 00:33:50I think I said that before you said it
- 00:33:52right so like you know once you get the
- 00:33:55joke then my work is done and you got it
- 00:33:58and you don't need my help anymore you
- 00:34:00can run with it and so many people in my
- 00:34:03life around the world work I've done
- 00:34:06with Acumen in multiple continents
- 00:34:08didn't get the joke and you know I'll
- 00:34:11give you uh an example uh there is a uh
- 00:34:16chain of hospitals in India called
- 00:34:18Lifespring and in India if you are a
- 00:34:22pregnant mom you have two choices you
- 00:34:25can go to a private hospital where
- 00:34:26you'll have to uh pay an enormous amount
- 00:34:29of money or you go to a public Hospital
- 00:34:31which isn't particularly sanitary and
- 00:34:33you have to pay bribes and what
- 00:34:35Lifespring did is they in created a
- 00:34:38hospital where the price list is right
- 00:34:40on the front door when you walk in it's
- 00:34:42spotlessly clean and it cost about $25
- 00:34:45to have a baby and their outcomes are
- 00:34:48extraordinary it's an obvious choice so
- 00:34:51I got there when they were about 2 years
- 00:34:53old and they just weren't
- 00:34:56full and they were what tactics should
- 00:34:58we use what tactics should we use how do
- 00:35:00we get and I said who's your customer
- 00:35:03and they pointed to like the pregnant
- 00:35:05lady said what are you an idiot you
- 00:35:06didn't go to health class when you were
- 00:35:08six that's our customer and I said I
- 00:35:12don't think that's your customer I think
- 00:35:14your customer is her
- 00:35:15mother-in-law I think your her
- 00:35:17mother-in-law is the one who is making
- 00:35:19the decision about what hospital she's
- 00:35:21going to give birth to the grandchild
- 00:35:23in and they you could just see everyone
- 00:35:26in the room like I'm some stranger some
- 00:35:29white guy who's never been what am I and
- 00:35:31they like of course like of
- 00:35:35course and they everything they did
- 00:35:37after that shifted and it dramatically
- 00:35:40changed the enrollment in the hospital
- 00:35:43because they understood something about
- 00:35:46strategy and that's what we're trying to
- 00:35:49do here if we're doing good work like I
- 00:35:51hope people who are doing evil work
- 00:35:53don't read this but if you're doing good
- 00:35:55work you need to see that cuz otherwise
- 00:35:57you're going to waste all your time
- 00:35:58marketing to pregnant ladies yeah that
- 00:36:00goes back to the in the business on the
- 00:36:02business the just awareness of this
- 00:36:05and
- 00:36:07potentially
- 00:36:09uh one of the biggest strengths of the
- 00:36:12cover of your book in addition to this
- 00:36:15awesome photo of you in the middle of
- 00:36:17the O of Goden um and I think you know
- 00:36:21how many books you got like 19
- 00:36:22bestsellers now is that right something
- 00:36:25like that but that I like that your name
- 00:36:26is large but this little line right here
- 00:36:29in the middle for the people who are uh
- 00:36:31listening instead of watching the
- 00:36:33subhead is make better
- 00:36:36plans to me this is the punchline that
- 00:36:41if we're going to draw a circle around
- 00:36:43what matters in this book it's and what
- 00:36:45matters to you as why you would care
- 00:36:47about reading this book is you can
- 00:36:50imagine if you are working or the
- 00:36:52analogy you often use or you have used
- 00:36:54in the past if you are climbing the
- 00:36:56wrong Mountain you're you're doing great
- 00:36:57at climbing but if you're climbing the
- 00:36:59wrong Mountain what are you doing yeah
- 00:37:02this idea of making better plans like
- 00:37:05who are you at your core what is your
- 00:37:07vision what is your mission who are you
- 00:37:09serving you start answering some of
- 00:37:11these questions and making plans that
- 00:37:13are in line with what you really want to
- 00:37:15do who you really are that makes all the
- 00:37:19difference in the world I don't even
- 00:37:21know how to like I can't say it any more
- 00:37:24bluntly that that is why you have to get
- 00:37:27get this book cuz if you're climbing the
- 00:37:29wrong mountain right now and many of you
- 00:37:30who are listening or watching are I've
- 00:37:33climbed the wrong Mountain many times in
- 00:37:34my life and I've done it as with like as
- 00:37:37recent as you know six months ago I was
- 00:37:39climbing the wrong mountain with a
- 00:37:41different book that I was writing I've
- 00:37:43climbed the wrong Mountain I know how
- 00:37:45freaking painful it can be and this
- 00:37:48making the right plans to clme the right
- 00:37:50mountain is
- 00:37:53transformational wow thank you by the
- 00:37:55way yeah thank you for writing this book
- 00:37:58today is your best chance to improve
- 00:38:01tomorrow there another winning uh thing
- 00:38:05from the out from the the back cover
- 00:38:07here um and the last one is one of my
- 00:38:10faves you're not you're not stuck in
- 00:38:13traffic you are traffic I was literally
- 00:38:16gonna say that my then the takeaway here
- 00:38:18this is like you're not say think about
- 00:38:20that again you're not sitting in traffic
- 00:38:23you are traffic Seth anything else where
- 00:38:26you'd steer us because uh I know that
- 00:38:28this is you're always doing independent
- 00:38:29Renegade things with your books uh where
- 00:38:32do we get this what's the best place for
- 00:38:34if you'd point us to any uh so many
- 00:38:37Renegade things that were fun to do on
- 00:38:39this one I made a collectible chocolate
- 00:38:40bar with our friends at Asin noi
- 00:38:42chocolate the rapper alone is worth the
- 00:38:45price and a strategy deck anyway you
- 00:38:47find them all at seth.
- 00:38:50blog which stands for this is strategy
- 00:38:52and um I really truly mean it I am not
- 00:38:56in the book selling business it's fine
- 00:38:57with me if people never buy one of my
- 00:39:00books I just want them to talk about it
- 00:39:02and that's why the real work the worth
- 00:39:05while work is writing a book good enough
- 00:39:08to be worthy of sharing with Chase
- 00:39:10because if I can have a conversation
- 00:39:11like this with you and other people
- 00:39:13start having this conversation that's my
- 00:39:16role that's my that's my calling one of
- 00:39:19my favorite people in the whole world to
- 00:39:21talk to is Seth Goden and Seth thank you
- 00:39:25so much uh I cherish every one of our
- 00:39:27our conversations you've been a Guiding
- 00:39:29Light to me in so many ways if you've
- 00:39:31read my new book you know that Seth is
- 00:39:33in there two different times giving me
- 00:39:36like massive insight and
- 00:39:38transformational awareness uh of stuff
- 00:39:41that's sitting right in front of me but
- 00:39:43Seth sees it when I don't um thank you
- 00:39:45thank you for being a friend a mentor
- 00:39:47writing This brilliant book your 1928
- 00:39:5024th I don't know how many books you've
- 00:39:52written but make better plans this is
- 00:39:54strategy Seth Goden everyone thank you
- 00:39:56so much Seth for being on the show
- 00:39:58you're always welcome here and to
- 00:40:00everybody out there who has the book you
- 00:40:02don't have this version I'm just going
- 00:40:05to say you're just gonna say look at my
- 00:40:08just got you have the you are the only
- 00:40:10person on the planet who has that
- 00:40:12version I think I I a couple times I
- 00:40:14just sent you Snippets I like to read in
- 00:40:16the morning before my day gets away from
- 00:40:19me and there's so many beautiful
- 00:40:22beautiful uh riffs in here thanks for
- 00:40:24being a guest on the show the book is
- 00:40:26this is strategy Seth go everyone
- 00:40:28appreciate you friend thanks for being
- 00:40:29on the show
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