Michael Shellenberger: How Our Leaders Lost All Credibility
Summary
TLDRIm Interview mit Michael Shellenberger werden zentrale Herausforderungen und Themen in der heutigen Gesellschaft beleuchtet, darunter der Einfluss von Eliten, politische und mediale Dynamiken sowie der notwendige Mut zur Meinungsfreiheit. Shellenberger hinterfragt kritisch die Rolle von Eliten, die seiner Ansicht nach oft mehr schaden als nützen, indem sie gesellschaftliche Institutionen und Prozesse untergraben. Das Gespräch dreht sich um Themen der politischen Polarisierung, der Rolle von Experten und Medien sowie den kulturellen Wandel in Bezug auf individuelle Freiheit und Verantwortung. Ein weiter Aspekt ist die zunehmende Entfremdung von politischen Eliten gegenüber der Allgemeinbevölkerung und die Bedeutung holistischer Ansätze für die Bewältigung von Problemen wie Obdachlosigkeit und sozialer Ungerechtigkeit. Shellenberger diskutiert auch den Einfluss sozialer Medien und den schmalen Grat zwischen Zensur und freier Meinungsäußerung. Schließlich reflektiert er über die Zukunft Amerikas in Hinblick auf die Anforderungen einer modernen, pluralistischen Gesellschaft.
Takeaways
- 📚 Shellenberger plant eine Buchtrilogie über Zivilisation.
- 🧐 Er kritisiert Eliten für ihre schädlichen Einflüsse.
- 🎙️ Medien spielen eine zentrale Rolle bei der Bildung öffentlicher Meinungen.
- 🌐 Der "Zensur-Industrielle Komplex" bedroht die Demokratie.
- 💡 Persönliche Verantwortung ist ein wiederkehrendes Thema.
- 👏 Mut ist essentiell für gesellschaftlichen Fortschritt.
- 🔄 Politische Parteien müssen sich an populistische Änderungen anpassen.
- 🏡 San Francisco als Beispiel für gescheiterte Politik.
- 🤝 Man muss zwischen Ideologie und Realität unterscheiden.
- 🇺🇸 Die USA stehen vor einer politischen und kulturellen Neuausrichtung.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
Michael Shellenberger diskutiert in diesem Segment seine Erfahrungen und Gedanken über die Elite und deren Einfluss auf die Gesellschaft. Er erklärt, dass seine Bücherreihe die Rolle der Elite bei der Untergrabung der Zivilisation thematisiert. Shellenberger glaubt, dass die Elite, von der Gesellschaft am meisten profitierend, dennoch zu deren Zerfall beiträgt, indem sie sich nicht ausreichend um die Interessen der Allgemeinheit kümmert. Er reflektiert über die unbefriedigende Leistung von Elite-Institutionen wie Universitäten und Medien und wie dies zur Unzufriedenheit der allgemeinen Bevölkerung führt.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Das Gespräch lenkt die Aufmerksamkeit auf die sogenannte Papiergürtel-Industrie von Washington D.C. bis Boston. Michael Shellenberger argumentiert, dass die Eliten, aufgrund ihrer engen Vernetzung und obwohl in Geographie oft isoliert, von den Bedürfnissen der Allgemeinheit abgekoppelt sind. In der Vergangenheit, als Politiker in Washington wohnten, hatten sie weniger toxische Beziehungen. Social Media, so Shellenberger, trägt zusätzlich zur Entmenschlichung bei. Insgesamt betrachtet er die Elite als den Interessen der Öffentlichkeit zuwiderhandelnd, was Unzufriedenheit schürt.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Michael Shellenberger diskutiert populistische Gegenbewegungen innerhalb der USA und vergleicht Bernie Sanders und Donald Trump als zwei populistische Kandidaten aus dem Jahr 2016. Die Republikanische Partei entschied sich für den Populismus, während die Demokratische Partei den Establishment-Weg wählte. Shellenbergers These ist, dass Demokraten durch das Ablehnen des Populismus und den Schutz von Joe Biden sich letztendlich schwächten. Er sieht die Resilienz der Demokratie in der Fähigkeit, Führungspersonen solchen Prüfungen zu unterziehen, als entscheidenden Faktor an.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Das Gespräch zwischen Shellenberger und dem Interviewer konzentriert sich darauf, wie das politische Klima in Kalifornien ein Einparteienstaat ist, in dem wahre Konkurrenz intern zwischen Demokraten stattfindet. Shellenberger lief zweimal erfolglos für das Gouverneursamt und reflektiert, dass das Fehlen multipler starker politischer Stimmen das Problem verstärkt. Dies führt zu extremen und unpopulären politischen Entscheidungen. Michael Shellenberger hebt das Beispiel hervor, wie in San Francisco versäumt wurde, die Probleme von mentaler Gesundheit und Drogenmissbrauch anzugehen.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Michael Shellenberger beschreibt die chaotische Situation rund um Politik und Gesellschaft in Kalifornien. Er hebt hervor, wie progressive Politik in San Francisco, die auf falschen, wenn auch gutgemeinten Prinzipien beruht, zu gefährlichen Situationen wie steigender Kriminalität und Obdachlosigkeit führte. Shellenberger vergleicht diese rücksichtslose Politik mit einem Kult und betont, dass die Suchtpolitik zu einem wachsenden Drogenproblem beigetragen hat. Er verbindet diese Entwicklungen mit einer breiteren Diskussion über die fehlende Konfliktfähigkeit in der Einparteienregierung.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Shellenberger diskutiert die kulturellen und politischen Dynamiken in Kalifornien und den Zustrom von Elite-Akteuren nach Texas. Er beschreibt, wie politische Entscheidungen in Kalifornien selbstzerstörerisch geworden sind und vermutet, dass viele, die das Potenzial haben, positive Veränderungen zu bewirken, den Staat verlassen. Dadurch wird möglicherweise ein Kreislauf der Verschlechterung verstärkt, da diese Akteure nicht mehr vorhanden sind, um sich gegen die strikt fortschrittlichen Strukturen zu stellen. Er sieht dennoch Potential für positive Veränderungen, falls eine Neubewertung erfolgt.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Shellenberger reflektiert über die Herausforderungen der Elite, die sich hauptsächlich auf Städte konzentriert, und wie dies mit ländlichen Interessen kollidiert. Die USA stehen vor einem großen politischen Umbruch, mit einer Umorientierung der Republikaner auf Arbeiterinteressen. Er schlägt vor, dass die Demokraten ihren Fokus von Eliten zu mehr arbeitenden Menschen verlagern sollten, um politisch erfolgreich zu sein. Solch ein Wandel könnte die USA aus einer Krise herausführen und die Balance der Macht zwischen urbanen und ländlichen Gebieten wiederherstellen.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Der Interviewer reflektiert über das Beispiel von Joe Biden und die Reaktion der Medien auf seine scheinbare Unfähigkeit, in einer Debatte überzeugend zu wirken. Michael Shellenberger argumentiert, dass die Medien ihre Glaubwürdigkeit gefährden, indem sie der Bevölkerung offensichtlich Falsches einreden. Dies stärke alternative Medienplattformen wie Twitter, wo die Nutzer Nachrichten aus erster Hand erhalten können. Shellenberger betont die Notwendigkeit offener und diversifizierter Informationsquellen als Reaktion darauf, dass traditionelle Medien oft nicht die ganze Wahrheit sagen.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
Shellenberger diskutiert die Legitimitätskrise in den Medien und betont, wie wichtig es ist, Vertrauen aufzubauen, indem man zu eigenen Fehlern steht und Vielfalt in die Informationen einbringt, die man bezieht. Er schätzt Plattformen wie Twitter, die vielfältige Perspektiven bieten. Er argumentiert, dass die Menschen im Umgang mit Informationen klüger werden müssen und dass eine neue, ehrliche Beziehung zur Expertise überfällig ist. Shellenberger sieht hier eine Chance, sich von der einseitigen Berichterstattung zu lösen und eine authentischere Diskussion zu fördern.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
Shellenberger betrachtet die Probleme, die durch übermäßiges Vertrauen in Experten und die kritische Auseinandersetzung mit deren Aussagen entstehen können. Er erörtert die Tücken analytischer Überleistungen und die Neigung von Experten, Aussagen über ihre Kernkompetenzen hinaus zu machen. Shellenberger setzt sich für Skepsis gegenüber Expertenmeinungen ein und sieht in der aktuellen Vertrauenskrise in Eliten eine Chance für einen kritischeren Diskurs über Expertenwissen. In seinen Büchern zeigt er die Gefahren übertriebener Folgsamkeit auf.
- 00:50:00 - 00:55:00
Die Diskussion vertieft sich in die Frage, wie politische Strukturen mit der zentralisierten Macht umgehen sollten. Shellenberger erkennt die Herausforderung an, dass eine zu starke Abhängigkeit von Einzelpersonen in Machtpositionen, wie Elon Musk bei Twitter, problematisch ist, wenn es um freie Meinungsäußerung geht. Er fordert eine gesetzliche Grundlage, welche soziale Medien zur Aufrechterhaltung der Redefreiheit verpflichtet. Auch wenn Elon Musk momentan als Hüter der Meinungsfreiheit gesehen wird, bleibt dies für Shellenberger ein fragiler Zustand.
- 00:55:00 - 01:00:00
Shellenberger analysiert, wie der aktuelle politische und mediale Durcheinander durch die Justiz gelöst wird und wie der Oberste Gerichtshof in Zeiten politischer Pattsituationen zu einer wichtigen Instanz wird. Er beleuchtet allerdings die Grenzen, die juristische Entscheidungen haben, um soziale Probleme wie Obdachlosigkeit anzugehen. Er plädiert für umfassendere politische Lösungen und sieht die Notwendigkeit einer kulturellen und politischen Neuausrichtung, um systemische Probleme nachhaltig zu lösen.
- 01:00:00 - 01:05:00
Das Gespräch dreht sich um Social-Media-Monopole und die Regulierung solcher Plattformen in der modernen Gesellschaft. Shellenberger spricht über die Macht der Plattformen wie X (ehemals Twitter) und deren Rolle im öffentlichen Diskurs. Er beleuchtet auch die rechtlichen Herausforderungen und ethischen Dilemmas, die mit der Regulierung von Meinungsäußerungen einhergehen. Shellenbergers Ansatz zeigt eine Balance zwischen der Notwendigkeit der Redefreiheit und der Anerkennung der Macht solcher Plattformen, die einige als natürliche Monopole ansehen.
- 01:05:00 - 01:10:00
Shellenberger diskutiert die Rolle von Social Media im politischen Diskurs und bemängelt sowohl den Mangel an Debatten als auch die fallengelassene Manier des Journalismus, die Weg von der "Stimme Gottes"-Berichterstattung hin zu mehr persönlicher Einsicht führen könnte. Er unterstreicht die Wichtigkeit von Selbstreflexion und offenem Eingeständnis von Fehlbarkeit bei Journalisten wie Joe Rogan und Elon Musk. Dies, argumentiert er, könnte eine tiefere Beziehung zum Fachwissen und eine authentischere Informationsvermittlung fördern.
- 01:10:00 - 01:15:00
Shellenberger betont die Notwendigkeit von Mut in der gegenwärtigen Kultur und sieht einen Wert in der Annahme von Fehlschlägen sowie im Widerstand gegen öffentliche Kritiken. Als Vater und Journalist reflektiert er über den Einfluss von Social Media und der zeitgenössischen Erziehungskultur auf die Entwicklung von Mut und der Furcht vor Fehlverhalten bei der jüngeren Generation. Er vergleicht dies mit der Gen-X-Erfahrung von "Adversity" als bedeutsames Element der Persönlichkeitsentwicklung.
- 01:15:00 - 01:20:00
Shellenberger betrachtet die Bedeutung von individueller Freiheit und Verantwortlichkeit in einer übermäßig geschützten Gesellschaft. Als Vater erinnert er sich an eine Erziehung, die die Notwendigkeit hervorhob, Kindern logische Konsequenzen für ihre Handlungen nahezubringen und sie zur Unabhängigkeit zu erziehen. Er kritisiert die Tendenz moderner Eltern, ihren Kindern Schutz zu bieten, der deren Lebenskompetenzen schwächt. Dies, so argumentiert er, sei eine der Ursachen für die heutigen kulturellen Probleme.
- 01:20:00 - 01:25:00
Shellenberger spricht über den gesellschaftlichen Druck, gut zu sein, und den mutigen Umgang mit der Furcht. Er schätzt Mut als eine Fähigkeit, die maximiert wird, wenn man Ängste überwindet, und unterstreicht deren Bedeutung in der Erziehung von Kindern. Neben der selbstreflektierten Bewertung von Fehlern und Misserfolgen, betrachtet er die Kultivierung von Mut, als eine Gegenmaßnahme zum aktuellen Klima der Überbewertung von Kritik und der Angst vor der Ablehnung durch das Publikum in den sozialen Medien.
- 01:25:00 - 01:30:00
Shellenberger spricht über seinen persönlichen Bezug zum deutschen Bildungssystem und wie es seine Ansichten prägte. Er reflektiert darüber, wie sein Ansatz der natürlichen Konsequenz und der Vermittlung von Verantwortungsgefühl in der Kindererziehung seine Sicht der gegenwärtigen Erziehungstrends beeinflusst. Er kritisiert Überbehütung und hebt die Bedeutung hervor, Kindern Freiraum für unstrukturierte Spiele und Entdeckungen zu geben, dies als wichtiger Aspekt einer gesunden psychischen und emotionalen Entwicklung ansieht.
- 01:30:00 - 01:35:00
Michael Shellenberger spricht über den Einfluss auferlegter kultureller Entwicklungen und die Ablehnung der langfristigen Wirksamkeit der liberalen Ideale der Trennung von Kirche und Staat. Er betrachtet, wie bestimmte christliche Werte wie Barmherzigkeit und Mitgefühl in der Kulturlandschaft von Kalifornien zu exten kommen. Shellenberger stellt fest, dass die Erhaltung der menschlichen Spezies durch ein Drängen zu mehr Staatlichkeit erreicht werden könne, jedoch nichts davon glaubt, die gegenwachsenen Probleme in einer fragmentierten, säkularen Gesellschaft zu lösen.
- 01:35:00 - 01:57:23
Shellenberger reflektiert über das Spannungsfeld zwischen individueller Freiheit und Gemeinschaftsverantwortung in der westlichen Gesellschaft. Er zeigt auf, dass trotz des Wohlstands ein Mangel an sozialem Zusammenhalt und einer Kultur des "Sich-Selbst-Versorgens" besteht. Dies führt oft zu einer Kultur der Zersplitterung sowie einem Niedergang von traditionellen Werten. Er argumentiert, dass die USA auf eine Erneuerung ihrer Ursprungsprinzipien zurückgreifen sollten, insbesondere in Bezug auf Unternehmertum, Bildung und gesellschaftlichen Zusammenhalt.
Mind Map
Frequently Asked Question
Wer ist Michael Shellenberger?
Michael Shellenberger ist ein bekannter Journalist, öffentlichkeitswirksamer Aktivist und Autor, bekannt für seine kritischen Ansichten zu Themen wie Energiepolitik, Klimawandel, Obdachlosigkeit und Elitismus.
Was ist Shellenbergers Meinung zu Eliten und ihrem Einfluss auf die Gesellschaft?
Shellenberger hat oft die Meinung vertreten, dass Eliten durch ihren Einfluss und ihre Entscheidungen die bestehende Zivilisation untergraben oder schwächen.
Wie sieht Shellenberger die Rolle der Medien in der heutigen Gesellschaft?
Laut Shellenberger sollten Medien eine vielfältige Berichterstattung bieten und Meinungen aus verschiedenen Perspektiven präsentieren, um dem Publikum die Möglichkeit zu geben, umfassend und kritisch informiert zu sein.
Was versteht Shellenberger unter dem "Zensur-Industriellen Komplex"?
Shellenberger verwendet diesen Begriff kritisch, um ein System zu beschreiben, in dem staatliche Bürokratie und Zensur die Meinungsfreiheit und demokratische Prozesse unterdrücken.
Worum geht es in Shellenbergers neuem Buch mit dem Untertitel "Why Elites Subvert Civilization"?
Das Buch behandelt, warum Eliten zunehmend eine Gefahr für den Erhalt und die Weiterentwicklung zivilisatorischer Errungenschaften darstellen.
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- 00:00:01Michael shellenberger welcome to Dad
- 00:00:03Saves America thanks for having me so
- 00:00:06you've done so many things and you're
- 00:00:08out there in so many places so as I was
- 00:00:11trying to prepare myself for this
- 00:00:12conversation I'm like where can we go
- 00:00:15together and I think one of the things
- 00:00:17I'm really curious to dig in with is the
- 00:00:21concept of the
- 00:00:23elite
- 00:00:24because I feel like you have been in
- 00:00:27some ways doing battle along several
- 00:00:30different dimensions with Elite group
- 00:00:33think with homelessness with climate
- 00:00:35change with the uh the Twitter files and
- 00:00:39and the censorship industrial complex
- 00:00:43and I'm a very libertarian minded person
- 00:00:46which means I sort of in some ways
- 00:00:47haven't grappled with a theory of elite
- 00:00:50power all that well so how do you think
- 00:00:55about the elite and what the elite is in
- 00:00:59a way that's not
- 00:01:00like like a kind of Spectre like a they
- 00:01:04that's just like trying to control us
- 00:01:06all but you know what's your real how
- 00:01:09are you grappling with this concept well
- 00:01:12it's such a yeah it's a great question
- 00:01:14and it's interesting you ask it now
- 00:01:16because we just settled on a subtitle of
- 00:01:18our next book so I'm working on a I'm
- 00:01:21really going to finish a Trilogy of
- 00:01:23books on civilization that starts with
- 00:01:25apocalypse never included in San
- 00:01:26Francisco and then the third book is
- 00:01:28called pathocracy
- 00:01:30and we just settled on the subtitle
- 00:01:31which is why Elites subvert
- 00:01:35civilization and it speaks to yeah so
- 00:01:38you're thinking about this I'm glad yeah
- 00:01:40it speaks to well there's so much going
- 00:01:43on just in those four words and um when
- 00:01:46you're doing a subtitle you're like what
- 00:01:47is the book about that's what the
- 00:01:48subtitle is about and so I'm very
- 00:01:50interested in the ways in which the
- 00:01:52people that have benefited the most from
- 00:01:55civilization are also in the process and
- 00:01:57doing more than anybody else to
- 00:01:59undermine it
- 00:02:00and that means that the elites the
- 00:02:02people that benefit the most from
- 00:02:03civilization meaning the security and
- 00:02:05the prosperity and the status and the
- 00:02:08freedom that comes from being high on
- 00:02:10the totem pole I think the first thing
- 00:02:13though it's like because Elites are
- 00:02:14obviously in the conversation right now
- 00:02:16we've been doing a lot of our own
- 00:02:17reporting on we're certainly not the
- 00:02:18only ones I think it's a big
- 00:02:19conversation because the the the public
- 00:02:23does not feel that the elites represent
- 00:02:25them in a healthy Society in a
- 00:02:27civilization that's working you have in
- 00:02:30quality you have Elites but people are
- 00:02:33not mad at the elites people are mad at
- 00:02:34the elites the elites have failed in so
- 00:02:37many ways even if you look at Europe the
- 00:02:39heads of state are very unpopular in
- 00:02:42Western democracies and so so you sort
- 00:02:44of get at why is that and what what
- 00:02:46makes them unpopular you know I mean so
- 00:02:48there's a lot of different directions we
- 00:02:49can go but I think the fact that we're
- 00:02:52interested in Elites shows that it's
- 00:02:54it's in part because they're actually
- 00:02:56not doing their jobs well and it's not
- 00:02:58even that it's not a radical IAL like
- 00:03:00there's a certainly a socialist or a
- 00:03:01communist criticism of Elites which is
- 00:03:03that there shouldn't be any Elites I
- 00:03:04mean that's what Marx is saying that's
- 00:03:06what the Communists want is there no
- 00:03:08Elites we're not saying anything any
- 00:03:09that radical we're just saying they're
- 00:03:11not doing a good job and so when you
- 00:03:12look at the you know something like a
- 00:03:14third of the public approves of how
- 00:03:17universities the media and other Elite
- 00:03:21institutions are performing and that
- 00:03:22just tells you there's something
- 00:03:23profoundly wrong with with our
- 00:03:26civilization all right here's your
- 00:03:28obligatory reminder to hit the like
- 00:03:30button subscribe to the channel and ring
- 00:03:32the bell it really actually does help us
- 00:03:35out a lot when we're trying to book
- 00:03:36awesome new guests they look at how many
- 00:03:38subscribers are on the channel and they
- 00:03:40say Yep this is worth doing and I want
- 00:03:42to bring the best possible people to you
- 00:03:44that I can speaking of which let's get
- 00:03:47back to the
- 00:03:48conversation a good friend of mine Mike
- 00:03:50Gibson has a book paper belt on fire
- 00:03:52where he talks about
- 00:03:54that that sort of collection the paper
- 00:03:57industrial complex from DC to Boston uh
- 00:04:01Pol politics media Academia you it's
- 00:04:05kind of a perfect like the basically you
- 00:04:08can get on Amtrak and and touch on all
- 00:04:11of the failing broken sort of collusive
- 00:04:14disasters of American society in like a
- 00:04:184-Hour Asel ride right is that part of
- 00:04:21the problem is it the connectivity is it
- 00:04:24the the community building that's taken
- 00:04:27place where people that that are in
- 00:04:30positions of authority are just hanging
- 00:04:32out with each other too much I think
- 00:04:35it's I'm not sure if it's that they're
- 00:04:36hanging out with each other too much but
- 00:04:37they're definitely disconnected from
- 00:04:39working Americans ordinary Americans um
- 00:04:42disconnected geographically for sure one
- 00:04:45of the most famous stories that people
- 00:04:46like to tell in DC is that before jet
- 00:04:48travel the members of Congress had to
- 00:04:51live in Washington they brought their
- 00:04:52families there they grew up you know
- 00:04:54they would spend you know decades and
- 00:04:55they' become friends with people across
- 00:04:57the aisle from them they still had
- 00:04:58partisan disagreement there were still
- 00:05:00fights but there was still they
- 00:05:01humanized each other when you testify in
- 00:05:04front of Congress right now the
- 00:05:06relationships between Republicans
- 00:05:08Democrats are so toxic you know at first
- 00:05:11I remember when I started testifying a
- 00:05:14lot more I testified a lot in the last
- 00:05:16couple years but when the first couple
- 00:05:17times I remember asking after I was like
- 00:05:19was that just for show are you guys just
- 00:05:21pretending to hate each other like that
- 00:05:23cuz surely behind the scenes you guys
- 00:05:25have a different relationship and was
- 00:05:26like no unfortunately that is how bad
- 00:05:29it's gone
- 00:05:30and I think some of that then also is so
- 00:05:32some of it's we know it's Geographic
- 00:05:33some of it's the change of jet travel
- 00:05:35some of it's also we know is social
- 00:05:37media um social media because it reduces
- 00:05:40face-to-face contact it's very
- 00:05:42dehumanizing so it's very hard for me to
- 00:05:44dehumanize you right now because we're
- 00:05:47here together and we can see the god in
- 00:05:49you sees the god in me and vice versa
- 00:05:52it's very hard to be dehumanized like
- 00:05:53that but when you're going after
- 00:05:55somebody online and they're and they're
- 00:05:56faceless and nameless I think those
- 00:05:59those natur naturally Psychopathic
- 00:06:00Tendencies to dehumanize the other come
- 00:06:02to the for more and then I think then
- 00:06:04then they then bleed over into real
- 00:06:06world
- 00:06:07interactions I think that's one set of
- 00:06:09factors I think there's another set of
- 00:06:10factors which is I just think Elite
- 00:06:12policies are not in the interests of the
- 00:06:15public and so the real challenge to this
- 00:06:17has come with the rise of populism
- 00:06:19particularly after 2016 with Trump and
- 00:06:21brexit and we're still undergoing that
- 00:06:23transition is very dramatic moment
- 00:06:25obviously where the elites are trying to
- 00:06:27figure out what does our policy agenda
- 00:06:29need to be that's in the interests of
- 00:06:31the public and not in the interests of
- 00:06:34oligarchs or foreign interests or
- 00:06:37foreign or oligarchs and I think that's
- 00:06:40a a Big Driver as well of the
- 00:06:41dissatisfaction that's occurring you
- 00:06:43have a new piece on um your substack
- 00:06:47about this about basic I think the title
- 00:06:49is basically how the Democratic Elite
- 00:06:51has um destroyed itself basically in the
- 00:06:54face of rejecting populism I'm I'm sort
- 00:06:57of paraphrasing there but um
- 00:07:00what's your thesis in that piece well
- 00:07:02it's interesting to look if you look at
- 00:07:03the two parties there's these
- 00:07:05similarities and contrast I mean one of
- 00:07:06them is you have two populist
- 00:07:09presidential candidates emerg at the
- 00:07:11same time in 2016 one of them is Bernie
- 00:07:13Sanders on the left the other one is
- 00:07:15Donald Trump on the right the Republican
- 00:07:18and Democratic party Elites aggressively
- 00:07:22opposed both of those candidates at the
- 00:07:25end of the day the Republican voters
- 00:07:28went with the populist candidate and the
- 00:07:30Democrats did not now we look at we
- 00:07:32describe how the Democrats engaged in
- 00:07:35some machinations at the elite level the
- 00:07:38DNC level the party delegates and
- 00:07:40whatnot moving money around and favoring
- 00:07:43Hillary to make sure she got the
- 00:07:44nomination similar you know different
- 00:07:47but you know similar approach to then
- 00:07:49snuff out the populace threat in 2020
- 00:07:51getting bu a judge and ab kashar to drop
- 00:07:54out endorse Biden and then Warren split
- 00:07:56the vote with Biden I'm sorry split the
- 00:07:58vote with Bernie Biden gets the
- 00:08:00nomination so one interesting question
- 00:08:03is why did the right end up going the
- 00:08:05populist Direction rather than the left
- 00:08:07and I think if you look over history I
- 00:08:09mean I don't know I don't know what the
- 00:08:10measure is but certainly we find left
- 00:08:11and right-wing populists you know
- 00:08:12throughout history so why did it work on
- 00:08:14the right rather left we gave one
- 00:08:15potential answer which is just that
- 00:08:16Trump had more money you was stronger in
- 00:08:19a lot of ways than Bernie was able to be
- 00:08:21just for who he was as an outsider
- 00:08:23business in person rather than a member
- 00:08:25of Congress that's potentially one
- 00:08:27reason but then I think what's so
- 00:08:29interesting about it is that the the
- 00:08:35fragilized so by subjecting Trump to
- 00:08:38this just you know whatever you think of
- 00:08:40the guy you know the trial of job you
- 00:08:43know like yeah like I mean they threw
- 00:08:44everything at the guy um from 2016 until
- 00:08:47today including you know lawsuits trying
- 00:08:49to get him in prison he narrowly escapes
- 00:08:51it in part because he gets this big
- 00:08:53truth social his company goes goes
- 00:08:55public he becomes a billionaire he's
- 00:08:57able to you know pay this this this
- 00:08:59temporary fee anyway in New York so he
- 00:09:02gets through it all and he's he's the
- 00:09:05strongest guy whereas they protect Biden
- 00:09:09for so long they overprotect him I mean
- 00:09:11I just love the metaphor you can see the
- 00:09:13implications of it they overprotect
- 00:09:15Biden and then you end up in a crisis
- 00:09:17that we're currently in and so I think
- 00:09:19one of the lessons is that because we
- 00:09:21say it all the time we go democracy is a
- 00:09:23really resilient system compared to
- 00:09:26authoritarianism but I we haven't had
- 00:09:28good ex we often don't have good
- 00:09:29examples of that and I think here you do
- 00:09:31have a really good one which is that
- 00:09:32subject your candidates to test a fire
- 00:09:35the guy who comes out of it going to be
- 00:09:37much stronger than the one who was
- 00:09:38sheltered and coddled and protected by
- 00:09:40the party apparatus you know one of the
- 00:09:43things that that leads me to think about
- 00:09:44is something that you know so you ran
- 00:09:46for governor in the state of California
- 00:09:48and um I don't know if you've had any
- 00:09:51conversations with um biology shavasan
- 00:09:54oh Shashi yeah yeah yeah so he's um I I
- 00:09:57I I met him years ago
- 00:10:00trying to keep up with his mind is a
- 00:10:02challenging thing when you're talking to
- 00:10:04him he's so fast he has basically laid
- 00:10:07said that California in particular is is
- 00:10:11an example of essentially like communist
- 00:10:14China it's a single party state so
- 00:10:16there's only really competition within
- 00:10:19the Democratic party right you ran you
- 00:10:22ran as a republican candidate for
- 00:10:24governor no or or how did you run
- 00:10:26actually that well I actually ran twice
- 00:10:27so I ran in 2018 I didn't have any
- 00:10:29support and I was a Democrat I uh in
- 00:10:332021 I became an independent because I
- 00:10:36had just done all the research for San
- 00:10:37Francisco and I was like I can't be a
- 00:10:39Democrat anymore just for moral reasons
- 00:10:43and then in 2022 I ran as an independent
- 00:10:45and there is a path as an independent if
- 00:10:48you can get out of the because it's a
- 00:10:50they call it a an Open Primary so
- 00:10:52anybody can vote for anybody and so you
- 00:10:54could have come out of the primary two
- 00:10:55Democrats two Republicans two
- 00:10:57Independents independent Democrat
- 00:10:58whatever so my The Hope was we'd get out
- 00:11:01of the primary as an independent and be
- 00:11:03in a good position to win by having all
- 00:11:06the Republicans plus a significant share
- 00:11:08of Independence and some Democrats um I
- 00:11:11still think that's possible we just
- 00:11:12didn't have the time or money really to
- 00:11:15get there so um so I wouldn't I think
- 00:11:18BAGI just uh as is sometimes the case uh
- 00:11:21overstates the situation spending time
- 00:11:24in that political environment um and
- 00:11:27maybe even just starting with San
- 00:11:29Francisco what has that told you about
- 00:11:32this the problems of feedback loops
- 00:11:35there because it does seem like one of
- 00:11:36the problems is it's so lopsided and so
- 00:11:41single party in nature that it just gets
- 00:11:44crazy it just becomes like absolutely
- 00:11:46insane levels of policy that are
- 00:11:48happening that don't pass muster I think
- 00:11:50I saw
- 00:11:52recently there was a there was um a bill
- 00:11:55to try to Federal uh make selling
- 00:11:58children for sex as a felony and there
- 00:12:02were actually activists saying this will
- 00:12:04harm the lgbtq community if we make
- 00:12:07child child sex trafficking a felony
- 00:12:10how's that that's like the level of
- 00:12:12insanity it feels like happens in this
- 00:12:14environment where there's no competition
- 00:12:16is that fair I mean it's worth taking a
- 00:12:18minute in understanding the madness and
- 00:12:20how bad it is I mean first of all it's a
- 00:12:23lot of mentally ill and drug addicted
- 00:12:25people that are being left to die on the
- 00:12:27streets or revived a doz or two dozen
- 00:12:30times by you know teams of EMT
- 00:12:32professionals and then they're no longer
- 00:12:34able to revive them because the fentanyl
- 00:12:36that they're smoking is at such high
- 00:12:37doses that the that the Narcan no longer
- 00:12:39works you have um sex trafficking we
- 00:12:43discovered a 14-year-old girl who was
- 00:12:45being uh trafficked on the street uh the
- 00:12:47police had failed to get her we wrote a
- 00:12:49story about it able to get her off the
- 00:12:51street but that's not uncommon there's
- 00:12:54Street walking was basically
- 00:12:56decriminalized uh supposedly because it
- 00:12:58was hurting people of color
- 00:13:00disproportionately uh I'll allow the
- 00:13:02viewers to judge for themselves whether
- 00:13:03or not that itself might be a rather
- 00:13:05racist uh formulation of the problem and
- 00:13:08then on the issue you mentioned around
- 00:13:10trying to increase the penalties for
- 00:13:11child sex trafficking and then also uh
- 00:13:14the latest one is effectively trying to
- 00:13:17get get the state set up to take kids
- 00:13:19away from their parents if the kids are
- 00:13:22identifying as the opposite sex and the
- 00:13:24parents are opposed to letting their
- 00:13:25kids go on drugs or have surgeries in a
- 00:13:29pseudo scientific effort to change their
- 00:13:30sex so things are absolutely out of
- 00:13:33control it's not the first time that
- 00:13:36you've had cult likee behaviors by
- 00:13:39democrats in California in San Francisco
- 00:13:42I describe the Jonestown and this
- 00:13:45character Jim Jones in the 70s drinking
- 00:13:48the Kool-Aid famous drinking the
- 00:13:50Kool-Aid thousand people kill themselves
- 00:13:53in Guyana this country in South America
- 00:13:55after they' moved but when you look at
- 00:13:56the the people's Temple which was his
- 00:13:59cult in San Francisco they had huge
- 00:14:02support from Democrats and part because
- 00:14:04they were delivering votes and money to
- 00:14:05democratic candidates but very high
- 00:14:08levels of support and yeah it was just a
- 00:14:12it's a religion so when you so so
- 00:14:15California look it's always had more you
- 00:14:17know had when they first came in the
- 00:14:1819th century they're more saloons than
- 00:14:20churches it's not like Boston you know I
- 00:14:23mean Boston the Democrats are not what
- 00:14:25they are in the Bay Area that he Eden
- 00:14:29ISM the the desire to create an
- 00:14:32alternative religion out of a kind of
- 00:14:34cult of compassion that's why I sort of
- 00:14:36say sanr sickness is a is a sickness of
- 00:14:40compassion unbounded where it's not it's
- 00:14:43considered cruel to intervene in
- 00:14:45someone's life so they don't kill
- 00:14:46themselves on fenyl as opposed to being
- 00:14:48cruel to let them die from fentanyl on
- 00:14:50the street so that's just how crazy it's
- 00:14:53gotten and then it it fall it fals prey
- 00:14:55to other pseudoscientific Cults like the
- 00:14:58idea that you can change your sex and so
- 00:15:01yeah how do you get the feedback loop in
- 00:15:03there very it's a very good question I
- 00:15:06actually think that there is a way in
- 00:15:07other words I think politics is what
- 00:15:09breaks that stalemate you have a lot of
- 00:15:11very affluent billionaires in California
- 00:15:14uh more than anywhere else that are
- 00:15:16capable of supporting candidates that
- 00:15:17can make change for a variety of reasons
- 00:15:20that
- 00:15:22organizational Clarity hasn't kind of
- 00:15:24coalesced yet but who knows it may still
- 00:15:26happen it does seem like I'm I live you
- 00:15:29know we're in Austin and Austin has been
- 00:15:32the
- 00:15:34beneficiary although it's not without
- 00:15:35its costs of sort of you know California
- 00:15:40migration and to some extent Elite
- 00:15:42California migration the most elite of
- 00:15:44being Elon Musk moving to Austin
- 00:15:47building the Giga Factory right but but
- 00:15:49others as well Joe Lonsdale other sort
- 00:15:51of um right of Center or just not crazy
- 00:15:55woke right Californians so there does
- 00:15:58seem to be a vote with your feet the
- 00:16:00feedback loop there although also seems
- 00:16:02like well now maybe some of the people
- 00:16:04best
- 00:16:05equipped to stand up for sanity in
- 00:16:09California are just like it's just not
- 00:16:11worth it and I'm out of here do you
- 00:16:13think that that's just going to be is
- 00:16:15that that feels like it could be an
- 00:16:16accelerating feedback loop yeah in fact
- 00:16:19there's a this is a pretty well it's
- 00:16:21called I think it's called the curly
- 00:16:23effect and it's named after I believe
- 00:16:25the Boston mayor named Curly who I was
- 00:16:28hoping it was going to be the the stoe
- 00:16:30yeah no exactly I for one of the Three
- 00:16:31Stooges should be but yeah the effect is
- 00:16:34just that um the people that leave are
- 00:16:36the ones that would have created change
- 00:16:38and the people that stay are the ones
- 00:16:39that benefit from it and I think there
- 00:16:40is some truth to that I also don't think
- 00:16:42it lasts you know forever you know a lot
- 00:16:45you know some Trends are linear some
- 00:16:46Trends are not linear so yeah I do think
- 00:16:49there's some of that I think the thing
- 00:16:51to remember about San Francis about San
- 00:16:52Francisco but also about California is
- 00:16:54this just such a desirable place to live
- 00:16:57I mean we like the climate is such that
- 00:17:01like I mean the weather yes um the
- 00:17:04physical natural climate is just so
- 00:17:07amazing like my wife and I we struggle
- 00:17:09with it um we don't have the community
- 00:17:11in Berkeley that uh we're already
- 00:17:13developing in Austin even you know
- 00:17:15developing in London you know but it's
- 00:17:19you know it's Berkeley weather so I mean
- 00:17:21it's really hard so but I think that
- 00:17:22also means that it has two effects one
- 00:17:24of them is that the politicians take you
- 00:17:26take it for granted that people that
- 00:17:27really love it there will stay there and
- 00:17:29they'll put up with all sorts of awful
- 00:17:31awful uh things including just a decline
- 00:17:34of basic
- 00:17:35services but then the other effect I
- 00:17:37think is that then there you get some
- 00:17:38people that will fight for it so the
- 00:17:40people that you know like me that are
- 00:17:42like stubborn and love it a lot are not
- 00:17:44willing to just give it up and and sort
- 00:17:46of walk away from it I've thought about
- 00:17:50what is the right analogy for the
- 00:17:53relationship between government and and
- 00:17:55the public because the notion that it's
- 00:17:57like some
- 00:17:59purely representational relationship is
- 00:18:02a fiction it's it's literally not true
- 00:18:05right like I know mathematically my vote
- 00:18:07will have no impact I'm not saying don't
- 00:18:09vote right although you are encouraging
- 00:18:11the bastards when you do but um the best
- 00:18:15I've been able to come up with so far is
- 00:18:17that government is at its best is like a
- 00:18:19good Dairy Farmer so Dairy Farmers and I
- 00:18:23I've spent a bunch of time with Dairy
- 00:18:24Farmers actually because we've done some
- 00:18:25documentaries about Animal Welfare Dairy
- 00:18:28Farmer is among the animal food
- 00:18:30producers are maybe the ones that have
- 00:18:33to care about the health of their animal
- 00:18:34the most because there's a real high
- 00:18:36correlation between health of the of the
- 00:18:38heer and milk production so that seems
- 00:18:43like what the government is they see us
- 00:18:46as their as their milk heers they want
- 00:18:48to keep us healthy enough to produce for
- 00:18:50them for tax revenue and if you're in
- 00:18:52Berkeley California they don't have to
- 00:18:55work even as hard because like oh you're
- 00:18:57free ranging you're grazing on grasses
- 00:18:59you're looking at the redwood trees so
- 00:19:01then they can whip the heck out of us
- 00:19:03it's fine yeah is that do you think
- 00:19:05that's a fair analy yeah I think it's
- 00:19:07well I think it's sort of fair although
- 00:19:09I I also am interested I am really
- 00:19:11interested in Dairy Farmers as well um
- 00:19:13from my my mother's uh family in Indiana
- 00:19:16were Dairy Farmers um um I have a friend
- 00:19:19who's a Dairy Farmer in California in
- 00:19:21fact I just when I visited him the cows
- 00:19:23were milking on one of those gigantic
- 00:19:26merry go rounds and I became obsessed
- 00:19:29with this technology where you know the
- 00:19:31cow marches in there and they stuck the
- 00:19:32uter on there and then they go around in
- 00:19:34circles why because it hypnotizes them I
- 00:19:36guess there the cows love it um and
- 00:19:39there's like two it's mechanized and so
- 00:19:40there's like two guys like in this room
- 00:19:42of like hundreds of cows I think they're
- 00:19:43also coming off at a certain point and
- 00:19:46then I went and then when all the
- 00:19:47controversy was happened about new
- 00:19:48restrictions on nitrogen pollution were
- 00:19:51being put in place in Netherlands I went
- 00:19:53to the Netherlands and interview Dairy
- 00:19:54Farmers and I and the first Dairy Farmer
- 00:19:57I interviewed when I started asking him
- 00:19:59about his cows and his relationship with
- 00:20:01him he started to cry because he loves
- 00:20:03his cows that much so I would say the
- 00:20:06metaphor falls apart because the Dairy
- 00:20:09Farmers actually love their cows and the
- 00:20:11California politicians Really Don't Care
- 00:20:13About Us um they really do take us for
- 00:20:15granted thank you thank you for this
- 00:20:17because they they know the names of
- 00:20:19their cows and they know their whole
- 00:20:21like literally they they he said he's
- 00:20:22like the cows are my best friends he's
- 00:20:24like he's like I know that makes me seem
- 00:20:26ridiculous and I was like yes at one
- 00:20:28level but another level it's the most
- 00:20:30beautiful thing I've heard on the entire
- 00:20:32trip is so moving and such a there's a
- 00:20:35lot of different directions conversation
- 00:20:36can go but but certainly as just a
- 00:20:39really important counter to the awful
- 00:20:41disrespect that farmers have received in
- 00:20:43recent years deep disrespect deeply
- 00:20:46dehumanizing patronizing
- 00:20:48elitist you know that and and
- 00:20:50particularly like we are in this foreign
- 00:20:52capital and we know what the right
- 00:20:53nitrogen levels should be the main event
- 00:20:56is preventing the manure from breaking
- 00:20:58down not to get too gross but if you
- 00:20:59capture the manure um in the proper ways
- 00:21:02then you prevent the nitrogen runoff
- 00:21:04that everyone's worried about they had
- 00:21:06done a good job in reducing the nitrogen
- 00:21:08runoff when the government was in a more
- 00:21:11collaborative relationship with Farmers
- 00:21:13it wasn't this heavy-handed imposition
- 00:21:16it wasn't just libertarianism I mean
- 00:21:17there was some sense in which let's try
- 00:21:19to reduce the nitrogen runoff but it
- 00:21:21wasn't this heavy-handed you know um top
- 00:21:23down regulatory scheme so I do anyway to
- 00:21:26the extent there's a metaphor there that
- 00:21:28might be one of them too is that one of
- 00:21:30the things that is most profoundly
- 00:21:34happening in this question of populism
- 00:21:37versus the elite is it there's a lot of
- 00:21:40threads there's no one I'm sure of that
- 00:21:42but the urban versus rural is a big
- 00:21:45dividing line that when you actually
- 00:21:47travel you encounter really quickly it's
- 00:21:49like we are in two different societies
- 00:21:52yes huge problem huge problem could be
- 00:21:56coming for some correction I mean it's
- 00:21:58interesting because and this is where I
- 00:22:00get to the nonlinear part of the trends
- 00:22:02I mean one of the most interesting
- 00:22:03political Trends that's breaking down
- 00:22:05now is watching black support for Trump
- 00:22:08increase they just did a Daily Show
- 00:22:10focus group totally unscientific or
- 00:22:11whatever but they had like six
- 00:22:13African-Americans interviewed um by the
- 00:22:16half were voting for Trump and they were
- 00:22:18a little bit like themselves they were
- 00:22:19kind of like I can't believe I'm saying
- 00:22:20this you know they like I can't believe
- 00:22:22that this is coming out of my mouth so
- 00:22:24that's you know starting to change I see
- 00:22:26I credit Shane Gillis
- 00:22:29yeah um for this like he he made
- 00:22:31everybody laugh he made all the Liberals
- 00:22:32laugh about Trump and then I see it
- 00:22:35among my friends and family everyone's
- 00:22:37softening a bit and being like okay
- 00:22:39maybe it won't be a dictatorship if
- 00:22:41Trump comes back in maybe we overstated
- 00:22:44that a little bit I so I do think that
- 00:22:48that rural urban divide of course it
- 00:22:49can't last and only 1 and a half% of the
- 00:22:52population are farmers so it's not like
- 00:22:55that's a governing Coalition or not or
- 00:22:57whatnot and yeah but I think you do
- 00:22:59start if you start to if it really
- 00:23:00becomes if the Republicans really do end
- 00:23:02up becoming a workingclass party and
- 00:23:04that's clearly what they're going for
- 00:23:07that's uh that creates big problems for
- 00:23:09Democrats because people have to
- 00:23:10remember only a third of the of the
- 00:23:12population I think goes to college in
- 00:23:14the United States you know so still too
- 00:23:16many yeah exactly no I know we still
- 00:23:18have and we still over that's the real
- 00:23:21problem got a third I know what do we do
- 00:23:24with them all I know they all then
- 00:23:25become they go into the censorship
- 00:23:26industrial complex so yeah I mean I
- 00:23:28think look we're in a period of like
- 00:23:30significant political realignment that
- 00:23:33is clearly as significant as the one
- 00:23:36that occurred after the passage of the
- 00:23:37Civil Rights Act in 1964 and so you see
- 00:23:40the Republican Party orienting towards
- 00:23:42working people also you know you see the
- 00:23:45Democrats orienting around educated
- 00:23:46Elites and and both in the United States
- 00:23:48and and in Britain but that can't be the
- 00:23:50end of the story because if they are too
- 00:23:52oriented towards Elites they're not
- 00:23:53going to be able to succeed politically
- 00:23:55and so you're going to have to see the
- 00:23:56Democrats start to respond more with
- 00:23:58with policies that are more in the
- 00:23:59interest of working people one of the
- 00:24:02things um that we have as like this case
- 00:24:04study moment right now and I'm really
- 00:24:06curious how you think about this
- 00:24:11is Joe scarbo burrow saying there's
- 00:24:15never been a better Biden and one week
- 00:24:17later and and and you know and sharp
- 00:24:19sharp Sharpie Sharpie Sharpie Sharpie
- 00:24:21Sharpie Sharpie sharp almost like
- 00:24:22they're reading from a script right and
- 00:24:24then um one week later a debate that
- 00:24:27should have been surprising to no one
- 00:24:29with eyes and ears happens and it there
- 00:24:33is nothing surprising in at all those of
- 00:24:35us that watched it and watched CNN in
- 00:24:38particular like the slack jawed shock
- 00:24:41the van Jones being like on the verge of
- 00:24:44tears
- 00:24:45mhm how do you think about that because
- 00:24:49it is I'm not prone towards conspiracy
- 00:24:52because like I just don't think it's
- 00:24:55possible to coordinate on a mass scale
- 00:24:57the way most conspiracy theories assume
- 00:24:59like oh there's this like elaborate web
- 00:25:02and everyone's speaking in unison it's
- 00:25:04like if that were true we wouldn't have
- 00:25:05found out about Abu grae right but
- 00:25:08something's going on right so how do you
- 00:25:10think about the like media turn on a
- 00:25:13dime like memory H holding of the thing
- 00:25:16they said literally five minutes ago
- 00:25:19well I'm so happy about it because of
- 00:25:21course I these are my competitors so the
- 00:25:23more that they destroy their credibility
- 00:25:25and legitimacy the happier I am
- 00:25:28and and and it comes as some relief
- 00:25:30because there is menace to this really
- 00:25:32it's almost totalitarian uniformity and
- 00:25:35Conformity of the media where they're
- 00:25:37just constantly gaslighting us you know
- 00:25:40the kind of classic is no that's not
- 00:25:43happening and then quite Surly
- 00:25:45afterwards yes it's happening it's a
- 00:25:47good thing and we should do more of it I
- 00:25:48mean that happens so frequently gas
- 00:25:50stove bands was one that we saw you know
- 00:25:53IC bands and but you know trans stuff
- 00:25:56it's constantly happening um there's no
- 00:25:59mic there's people always tell me
- 00:26:00there's no they're not doing this on
- 00:26:02miners you know but they but the miners
- 00:26:04should be able to have these you know
- 00:26:06drugs and surgeries so yeah I mean for
- 00:26:09me that was wonderful because clearly
- 00:26:12they got themselves in a is was
- 00:26:15reminiscent of the problems of the
- 00:26:16democratic Elites as well and they got
- 00:26:18themselves in a position where they they
- 00:26:22believed their own BS that Trump was
- 00:26:25this existential threat to democracy so
- 00:26:27much that they then
- 00:26:28defended the indefensible which was
- 00:26:30Biden's obvious uh you know debilities
- 00:26:33and mental incapacity and then when it
- 00:26:36became you know they're not very
- 00:26:37long-term thinkers obviously you know
- 00:26:40because if they were then they wouldn't
- 00:26:42have had that defense for so long and
- 00:26:44then been gaslighting people about his
- 00:26:46condition so then they got them they got
- 00:26:48themselves in a situation where the
- 00:26:49debates occurred and he fell apart and
- 00:26:52their legitimacy suffered for it and I
- 00:26:54think it still suffered I mean you know
- 00:26:55like I said the trust in the media was
- 00:26:57like 30 I think it was like 33 to 36%
- 00:27:00before that occurred and now when you go
- 00:27:02online readers are there mixed like
- 00:27:05there's some hardcore Democrat Biden
- 00:27:07supporters that are mad at the media for
- 00:27:09turning on Biden there's others who are
- 00:27:11like why did you let it get this bad so
- 00:27:14I think it's great and I'm really I
- 00:27:16think it's a really positive development
- 00:27:19because the media had just grown too
- 00:27:21powerful and and I think it's now the
- 00:27:24bro you know there's other things that
- 00:27:25are going on like just the rise of the
- 00:27:26internet and podcasting and Twitter in
- 00:27:28social media means that the thing that
- 00:27:30is really delegitimizing for the media
- 00:27:33is when they they both lie and Gaslight
- 00:27:36and then people go find the truth for
- 00:27:38themselves in some other way and that's
- 00:27:39ultimately what what undo it they can
- 00:27:41tell you that you're don't believe you
- 00:27:43know don't believe Your Lying Eyes
- 00:27:45believe me but when people see it
- 00:27:47themselves that just means you're
- 00:27:48suffering a huge legitimacy crisis what
- 00:27:51do you think is the mechanism that
- 00:27:55allowed this to happen in this way you
- 00:27:57said that like oh they've convinced
- 00:27:59themselves of this like the pending neoh
- 00:28:02Hitler tto yeah ego is the mechanism
- 00:28:05yeah but but if you believed he's Hitler
- 00:28:07and you could see that the current
- 00:28:09president is ailing and maybe has
- 00:28:11Parkinson's or something but like that
- 00:28:13can't be good if you think the country
- 00:28:16is going to collapse into fascism
- 00:28:18wouldn't you be so quick to be like we
- 00:28:21need to pressure Biden to step down now
- 00:28:23we need to get president Harris to be
- 00:28:25the president and and get a really
- 00:28:27strong running mate to try to so that so
- 00:28:29that we can have continu like like that
- 00:28:33that as your core concern would suggest
- 00:28:36courses of action if you see yourself as
- 00:28:38being influential that weren't taken
- 00:28:41right well the key moment would have
- 00:28:42been this year right where you would
- 00:28:43have allowed a primary it would have
- 00:28:45been some you would have had the elites
- 00:28:46get together and demand on a primary of
- 00:28:48course you're dealing with a president
- 00:28:49that didn't want that and that has used
- 00:28:53I mean I think we don't there there was
- 00:28:54this whole mythology of Biden as this
- 00:28:56sort of nice guy that was never the case
- 00:28:59he was always a ruthless politician
- 00:29:01always willing to use the dark arts and
- 00:29:04to be quite vicious in his attacks and
- 00:29:06to lie about all sorts of things
- 00:29:08including his own condition and I think
- 00:29:10we still don't know kind of what was
- 00:29:12really going on medically we already
- 00:29:14know that there was discrepancies
- 00:29:16between what what they the white house
- 00:29:17has said and what he said particularly
- 00:29:19around Parkinson's I should say I was I
- 00:29:22was I had a I had a story about him
- 00:29:24having Parkinson's that I was going to
- 00:29:27run like a week before the debates and
- 00:29:30ultimately my colleague kind of decided
- 00:29:32not to mostly
- 00:29:35because it just was still speculative
- 00:29:37and we did a little conjecture it's a
- 00:29:39little conjecture and it was um it's
- 00:29:41also just not in our wheel it's not
- 00:29:43really what we do you know medical
- 00:29:44reporting it's probably a good call yeah
- 00:29:46but it is in but you know part of is my
- 00:29:48my both my parents have Parkinson my
- 00:29:50father has Parkinson's and when I see
- 00:29:51Biden I'm like that's Parkinson's like I
- 00:29:55just was like it's the face in
- 00:29:56particular but the shuffle and the the
- 00:29:58ability to only do this kind of movement
- 00:30:00and so for me I was like and then I
- 00:30:02remember then I saw that finally CNN had
- 00:30:04on a Parkinson's expert and they were
- 00:30:05like well what you know like why do you
- 00:30:07make that assessment he's like well
- 00:30:08because it's obvious just look at him
- 00:30:09it's like Parkinson's and he's like but
- 00:30:10don't you need to do all those
- 00:30:11complicated exams and he was like he's
- 00:30:14like I could see somebody across the
- 00:30:15room and be like that guy is Parkinson
- 00:30:16and I have that experience too you just
- 00:30:18see it's a particular mask of the face
- 00:30:21so I mean I I mentioned all that just to
- 00:30:23say yeah I mean everybody knew there was
- 00:30:25a problem there and that that was the
- 00:30:27moment time for the elites to step in
- 00:30:30you know last year and and be like there
- 00:30:33needs to be an Open Primary and start to
- 00:30:34do this Revolt then and so yeah it's
- 00:30:37just human yeah just it's definitely not
- 00:30:41a conspiracy that's all I'll put that
- 00:30:43way when you um I think one of the
- 00:30:45things that is happening
- 00:30:48as the sources that had been
- 00:30:51authoritative yeah reveal themselves to
- 00:30:54be so rotten at least partly because of
- 00:30:58facing enough competition and now facing
- 00:31:00a lot right we have this Vortex of
- 00:31:06well I'm a busy person mhm how am I
- 00:31:09supposed to vet if this is true or not I
- 00:31:12don't know I don't know what to believe
- 00:31:14and then I go on to these platforms that
- 00:31:16we've heralded as being the competitive
- 00:31:18mechanism right and they rank and
- 00:31:22present material to me that confirms my
- 00:31:24bias so that I will engage with it and
- 00:31:26if I'm not and if I'm not aware of that
- 00:31:30it's really powerful and it's really
- 00:31:32powerful if I am aware of it because I'm
- 00:31:33still seeing a bunch of stuff that makes
- 00:31:34me angry so what do I do now what do I
- 00:31:38do now as a person navigating a world
- 00:31:40where it's like well those guys are a
- 00:31:41bunch of Schmucks and liars
- 00:31:44and half the other people think that we
- 00:31:47shouldn't get the MMR vaccine even
- 00:31:49though I'm pretty sure that's good I'm
- 00:31:51pretty sure the mmr's good right but but
- 00:31:54if they were wrong about the covid
- 00:31:56vaccine right but maybe
- 00:31:58maybe it was handwashing all along like
- 00:32:01right yeah it's a Hu so this is one of
- 00:32:04the most important questions right is
- 00:32:05sort of what it there's sort of two
- 00:32:07questions it's like how do people decide
- 00:32:09who to trust and who do they trust and
- 00:32:10how is it changing so the the story that
- 00:32:14the Deep state for lack of a better word
- 00:32:17and the elites told after 2016 the story
- 00:32:20was voters are really gullible um the
- 00:32:24Russians are doing
- 00:32:26disinformation um anybody can make
- 00:32:28anything go viral um people are more
- 00:32:31likely to believe falsehoods than truths
- 00:32:34falsehoods travel faster than truths
- 00:32:36that all turned out to be a lie like the
- 00:32:39most one of the most important
- 00:32:40psychological findings there's a whole
- 00:32:42book I just read about this going over
- 00:32:44this is that actually people are very
- 00:32:46slow to change their minds most people
- 00:32:49are not super open-minded most people
- 00:32:51are very skeptical of new information so
- 00:32:54that was one very important finding if
- 00:32:56anything anything we would say people
- 00:32:57are a little bit too slow to has changed
- 00:32:58their mind they should be a little bit
- 00:32:59more open-minded but without any that
- 00:33:01judgment this picture of people as like
- 00:33:03gullible and believing everything they
- 00:33:04see is just false it's been absolutely
- 00:33:07disproven in the academic research the
- 00:33:09other issue is that our people online
- 00:33:11creating bubbles of information turns
- 00:33:14out much less than people who are not
- 00:33:17getting their information online if you
- 00:33:19are watching MSNBC all day and you're
- 00:33:22not on Twitter you're not getting a wide
- 00:33:25variety of sources if you're on Twitter
- 00:33:26you're getting a lot of them and I will
- 00:33:28say elon's changes to Twitter have made
- 00:33:30it better I have we have these now we
- 00:33:32have these two columns on X right
- 00:33:35formerly Twitter one of them is the
- 00:33:36people you follow and the other one is
- 00:33:38for you I love the for you I think it's
- 00:33:41gotten better that's the recommendation
- 00:33:43algorithm that everybody's obsessed with
- 00:33:45I like the people I'm following but the
- 00:33:474u is great and then sometimes I might
- 00:33:49even follow one of the 4 youu people and
- 00:33:51then I'm like that's too much of them
- 00:33:52I'd rather have the recommendation
- 00:33:54engine um offer stuff to me on this
- 00:33:56political crisis my response and I'm not
- 00:33:58suggesting this was other people's but I
- 00:34:00think it's a it's it's one that people
- 00:34:01could consider I followed a lot more
- 00:34:04Progressive and Democratic and
- 00:34:05mainstream media voices than I had
- 00:34:07before because I really in a moment
- 00:34:10where I was starting to cover politics
- 00:34:11more I was like I just need more sources
- 00:34:14and so I've been doing a lot more
- 00:34:15following and unfollowing I think the
- 00:34:18other thing though that's changed is
- 00:34:19that there used to be the kind of voice
- 00:34:21of God approach from journalism embodied
- 00:34:24by Walter kronite and the TV stations
- 00:34:27continue to chase that wrong the way it
- 00:34:30and that's the way it is and I think
- 00:34:32that's very bad I think it's very it's
- 00:34:34very outdated um I think it's actually
- 00:34:37fragilized what they're trying to do a
- 00:34:39more robust approach is the approach
- 00:34:41taken by two major media figures Joe
- 00:34:43Rogan on the one hand Elon Musk on the
- 00:34:45other they both admit that they don't
- 00:34:47know things they both admit that they're
- 00:34:48wrong they both ask questions Elon has
- 00:34:52done some tweets that he would admit
- 00:34:54were not great and he's apologized for
- 00:34:57them them deleted them we asked about
- 00:35:00some of them you know um that is that's
- 00:35:04Role Model Behavior I mean that's good
- 00:35:06behavior um I believe I agree with I
- 00:35:08wrote two books and in my books I talked
- 00:35:10about how wrong I was about these issues
- 00:35:13in my previous years and what I've
- 00:35:15learned that's I think that's very very
- 00:35:18important for people to do so we need as
- 00:35:21like I think and I think that's I think
- 00:35:22it's also strategic in the sense that I
- 00:35:24think if you want to have influence it's
- 00:35:26good to admit your fallibility it's good
- 00:35:28to admit that you don't know things
- 00:35:30you've made mistakes and to actually
- 00:35:31talk about why you made those mistakes
- 00:35:33what those biases were we trust people
- 00:35:35that have some self-awareness so I think
- 00:35:37that we're we're headed towards a place
- 00:35:40a relationship to expertise that is
- 00:35:42really different from the one that
- 00:35:43pervaded after World War II until the
- 00:35:46beginning of the century I um and I
- 00:35:48haven't had a chance to read the
- 00:35:50underlying paper I came across a video
- 00:35:52that sort of made a summary of this
- 00:35:54which was I think it's Daniel Kahan is
- 00:35:56the researcher MH
- 00:35:58that high IQ
- 00:36:00people will tend to be more numerate um
- 00:36:04because IQ is essentially a kind of like
- 00:36:07cognitive speed like how quickly can I
- 00:36:10crunch abstractions and come to an
- 00:36:12answer right it's good for problem
- 00:36:15solving IQ is great correlates with a
- 00:36:17lot of stuff but high IQ people as I
- 00:36:20understand it are actually more prone
- 00:36:23when you encounter complex sort of more
- 00:36:26ideologically oriented questions like
- 00:36:29should we have gun control or not um to
- 00:36:32go way off the rails and to use their IQ
- 00:36:36as a kind of expost justification of
- 00:36:39whatever ideological bias they have and
- 00:36:41so it was kind of a case for populism in
- 00:36:45the sense of Beware of the smarty pants
- 00:36:49that can make lots of arguments for
- 00:36:51something that sounds crazy to your
- 00:36:53contractor because your contractor being
- 00:36:55like that guy sounds like a lunatic he's
- 00:36:57proba right yeah sure there could be
- 00:36:59some truth to that um I mean we could
- 00:37:01probably find examples to where the
- 00:37:02contractor is has all sorts of crazy
- 00:37:04beliefs that we wouldn't subscribe to um
- 00:37:07but I mean if you look at kind of
- 00:37:09structurally what it's meant in terms of
- 00:37:10media the biggest change is having a
- 00:37:13huge number of content moderators at
- 00:37:15Twitter before Elon took over and now a
- 00:37:18small number of them and a heavy
- 00:37:19Reliance on what's called Community
- 00:37:21notes which is the system where people
- 00:37:23can offer Corrections and context in a
- 00:37:26kind of community notes system that
- 00:37:27then's voted on it's not perfect um I've
- 00:37:30seen I've seen some things get community
- 00:37:32noted that I didn't think were quite
- 00:37:33right but even then there's appeal
- 00:37:35there's an appeal process which is
- 00:37:37mostly flagging Elon and being like that
- 00:37:39doesn't seem right but there was a study
- 00:37:41that was done on it and I found that it
- 00:37:43did have a much higher level of accuracy
- 00:37:45now of course it all depends on what
- 00:37:47people actually believe about certain
- 00:37:48things so if you think that men can
- 00:37:50change themselves into women and women
- 00:37:52can change themselves into men and
- 00:37:54that's just something that you believe
- 00:37:55you're going to have a different
- 00:37:56Community note if everybody believes if
- 00:37:58the majority believes that the community
- 00:37:59is going to be different before Elon
- 00:38:01took over they censored people who said
- 00:38:04men can't be women like that was
- 00:38:07something that they censored my friend
- 00:38:08Megan Murphy was censored for saying to
- 00:38:10Vaya who was one of the lead Attorneys
- 00:38:13at Twitter but men can't be women Vaya
- 00:38:16and that was the whole tweet that was
- 00:38:18censored so and that might be I think
- 00:38:20that's a good example in your case is
- 00:38:21like here you have something where how
- 00:38:23do you how do you convince people after
- 00:38:26hundreds of thousands of years that
- 00:38:29something magical can occur that people
- 00:38:31can change their their sex it takes a
- 00:38:34lot of intellectual work and that's not
- 00:38:36work that your contractor or plumber is
- 00:38:39doing that's work that University
- 00:38:40professors are doing so yeah I think
- 00:38:42that just that's um we all know Dunning
- 00:38:45Krueger which is that you know you're if
- 00:38:47you're bad at something then you're also
- 00:38:50bad at knowing that you're bad about it
- 00:38:52that's what it is like if you're dumb
- 00:38:53about something then you're also too
- 00:38:54dumb to know that you're bad at it which
- 00:38:56is why there's people that that we all
- 00:38:57in our lives and maybe all of us have it
- 00:38:59in ourselves you're doing something
- 00:39:00that's like you're not good at that but
- 00:39:02you don't even know that you're bad at
- 00:39:03it cuz you're that's a problem the other
- 00:39:06way it goes is that you're so smart and
- 00:39:08you and you know and you are smart and
- 00:39:10you're someone that does have a high IQ
- 00:39:11and you have a fancy university job and
- 00:39:14you're really smart at something and I
- 00:39:15see this all the time and then they get
- 00:39:17outside their specialization or even
- 00:39:19within their specialization yeah and
- 00:39:21they'll just be completely wrong but
- 00:39:23because they've got so much intellectual
- 00:39:25Firepower they're able to provide the
- 00:39:27the intellectual linguistic
- 00:39:29justifications for something that's
- 00:39:31that's totally wrong either morally or
- 00:39:33analytically I either lucked into or
- 00:39:38have been hopelessly um uh distorted by
- 00:39:42being injected by a healthy dose of
- 00:39:44Friedrich Hayek early in my intellectual
- 00:39:46life and he has this paper that speaks
- 00:39:49to this it's uh I it's one of these
- 00:39:52things like it's like the one of these
- 00:39:54things of our time that I feel like
- 00:39:55everyone should read even though it's a
- 00:39:57little it's called the intellectuals and
- 00:39:58socialism have you come across this
- 00:40:00paper I I may I remind me well the basic
- 00:40:03premise it's got a bunch of different
- 00:40:05ideas but one of one of them at the
- 00:40:06heart of it is that a there's there's a
- 00:40:10class of people he calls them the
- 00:40:12secondhand dealers of information and
- 00:40:14they're sort of the disseminators of the
- 00:40:15underlying like research so there's
- 00:40:17people in Academia or whatever doing
- 00:40:19research and then you've got people like
- 00:40:21me you know far more people like you who
- 00:40:24are out in the media or in art um
- 00:40:28taking a very distilled and
- 00:40:31almost sometimes just flat out
- 00:40:33objectively like wrong version of that
- 00:40:36and disseminating it right but the other
- 00:40:38piece of the puzzle that I find that
- 00:40:40that's so apt to this conversation is um
- 00:40:43he says there is a kind of attribution
- 00:40:45error we make when someone has expertise
- 00:40:49or a credential that they that not only
- 00:40:52that they get rewarded for and that the
- 00:40:55public in general kind of Rewards you
- 00:40:57mouthing off about whatever nonsense you
- 00:40:59want to talk about now like if you're
- 00:41:01Neil degrass Tyson right you could say
- 00:41:04whatever you want about anything even
- 00:41:05though it has nothing to do with
- 00:41:06celestial bodies flying around right or
- 00:41:08if you're a doctor and my dad's a doctor
- 00:41:12you have you're very narrowly
- 00:41:14specialized as a do as a as a medical
- 00:41:16doctor yeah but suddenly you can mouth
- 00:41:18off about whatever you want and
- 00:41:20non-medical things and people will take
- 00:41:21you more seriously than any jerk walking
- 00:41:24down the street that might actually know
- 00:41:25more than this doctor so hyek says
- 00:41:28beware of this yes how do you interact
- 00:41:32with this problem this the credential
- 00:41:35problem yeah the credential L which of
- 00:41:36course is is a is considered an
- 00:41:39illegitimate form of of debate of
- 00:41:41argument um credentials don't tell you
- 00:41:44what the right answer is to a problem it
- 00:41:45doesn't tell you so it's used as a
- 00:41:47shortcut it's a
- 00:41:49heuristic it's it's obviously a huge
- 00:41:51problem I mean it's um I see it on
- 00:41:53climate change all the time you might be
- 00:41:55somebody like climate scientists Trad
- 00:41:57traditionally meant somebody who was
- 00:41:58good at measuring levels of greenhouse
- 00:42:01gases heat trapping gases and their
- 00:42:04impact on temperatures like that used to
- 00:42:06be all it was but now it's becom your
- 00:42:08expert on you know the role of renewable
- 00:42:10energy well it's a totally different
- 00:42:12field
- 00:42:13unrelated I just got off the phone with
- 00:42:15somebody who was trying to tell me that
- 00:42:16somebody who knew about hurricanes would
- 00:42:17somehow have something to say about
- 00:42:20whales I think there is a and that was
- 00:42:22among a sophisticated journalist so I do
- 00:42:25think there's a A Primitive kind of well
- 00:42:29that's the witch doctor and they they're
- 00:42:31they're like in this particular position
- 00:42:33some of it's disingenuous it's people
- 00:42:36just trying to make an argument that
- 00:42:37they want to make and and and using that
- 00:42:39as a shortcut knowing that it has some
- 00:42:41impact I will say I think it's I think
- 00:42:44it's been the legit the legitimate
- 00:42:45legitimation crisis that we've been
- 00:42:47talking about has been great for this so
- 00:42:50I think that the skepticism of experts
- 00:42:52is very very high right now and you know
- 00:42:56so you see Co Origins the idea that it
- 00:42:58was a debunked conspiracy theory that it
- 00:43:00came from a lab vaccine the idea that it
- 00:43:02would prevent infection and transmission
- 00:43:05lockdowns the idea that we needed to
- 00:43:07keep kids out of schools and that would
- 00:43:08be more positive than negative these are
- 00:43:11all things brought To Us by experts um
- 00:43:14and the experts have been proven
- 00:43:16spectacularly wrong the experts said
- 00:43:17that Biden was better than ever he was
- 00:43:20not better than ever yeah so I do think
- 00:43:22that it's it's positive in that way it's
- 00:43:25also temporary in the sense that I think
- 00:43:28that the legitimation crisis is the
- 00:43:31exception to the rule that mostly and
- 00:43:32like the same thing I was saying about
- 00:43:33the distrust of Elites societies can't
- 00:43:36go on with the elites and the experts
- 00:43:39and the sources of information having
- 00:43:41such low levels of trust something's got
- 00:43:44to give and so I think it what it gives
- 00:43:45way to is just a broader number of
- 00:43:47experts a broader number of people who
- 00:43:50we trust as honest Brokers and I think
- 00:43:53some I think there is also the public is
- 00:43:56more Savvy in the sense that I think we
- 00:43:58are moving away from the voice of God
- 00:44:00type person to being like you know I
- 00:44:02might agree with Bobby Kennedy on Free
- 00:44:04Speech not sure if I trust him on
- 00:44:07vaccines I'm speaking personally at this
- 00:44:09point you know love him on censorship
- 00:44:13love him like I mean just
- 00:44:15incredible nuclear power I don't think
- 00:44:18he knows what he's talking about you
- 00:44:19know and he knows I think that so it's
- 00:44:20not like I'm sorry Bobby um but I think
- 00:44:23that people are gaining that level of
- 00:44:25sophistication as well and I think that
- 00:44:27that will only increase as you know that
- 00:44:29is one of the benefits of this highly
- 00:44:31complex and fragmented media environment
- 00:44:33there has been a centralization of
- 00:44:36actual political power and policy
- 00:44:38Authority in the United States over time
- 00:44:41um and that hasn't really abated the
- 00:44:44Supreme Court this supreme court has
- 00:44:46started to chip away at that in ways
- 00:44:48some of which are exciting like the
- 00:44:50Chevron the end of Chevron Defence so
- 00:44:53that oh if you're the unelected
- 00:44:55bureaucrat that interpreted a vague
- 00:44:58statute the court just doesn't bow
- 00:45:01before you like a mini King yes but has
- 00:45:04to actually do its job yeah that seems
- 00:45:06like a step in the right direction um
- 00:45:09how do you think
- 00:45:12about the the mechanism of politics
- 00:45:16starting to reflect the decentralization
- 00:45:19of knowledge and expertise because
- 00:45:20that's kind of how I'm hearing what
- 00:45:22you're saying that we we're actually
- 00:45:23seeing in the best possible sense
- 00:45:26decentralization of expertise I think
- 00:45:28there's two I think it's I think it's
- 00:45:30it's both centralization and
- 00:45:32decentralization occurring at the same
- 00:45:34time so if we just take the big example
- 00:45:37of Twitter and now rebranded X I'm a
- 00:45:41huge supporter of what Elon Musk has
- 00:45:43been doing I I was Twitter files
- 00:45:46journalist um I was um I've written on
- 00:45:50there's been some controversial Ed Edge
- 00:45:52cases around India and turkey where X
- 00:45:54was censorship was demanded of them I
- 00:45:56was involved in one in Brazil he did the
- 00:45:58right thing on Brazil and he's also you
- 00:46:01know he's got they're trying to get
- 00:46:03along with different Power centers
- 00:46:05particularly the advertisers demand a
- 00:46:07lot of censorship and so just recently
- 00:46:09there was a congressional hearing
- 00:46:10actually yesterday there was a
- 00:46:11congressional hearing Ben ship hero
- 00:46:12testified about the ways in which the
- 00:46:14advertisers collude to deprive
- 00:46:17conservative and libertarian or
- 00:46:18disfavored Outlets of funding and
- 00:46:21they're exercising control in that way
- 00:46:22and is that legal is it ethical what is
- 00:46:24it the big change here is that X is now
- 00:46:27a much more free speech platform than it
- 00:46:29was it's not 100% but that's not really
- 00:46:32possible the problem is that we're
- 00:46:34really now dependent on one man to stay
- 00:46:38strong with us and I was actually very
- 00:46:40I'm not an electric car guy at all I'm
- 00:46:41not a rocket guy either but I was very
- 00:46:43happy that Elon Musk got that $46
- 00:46:46billion bonus payment because I was like
- 00:46:49well that covers his loss for on Twitter
- 00:46:51and more and so there's less like he's
- 00:46:54less vulnerable to the financial
- 00:46:56pressure to censor on the other hand I
- 00:46:59don't love it that our Free Speech
- 00:47:01rights depend on a single person just as
- 00:47:03a principle doesn't matter who the
- 00:47:04person is you know it is a kind of
- 00:47:06benevolent monarchism he's the king I
- 00:47:09mean he's a king it's it's a monarchy so
- 00:47:12I I believe in the First Amendment which
- 00:47:14says as a spiritual and moral matter
- 00:47:16that Free Speech comes before the
- 00:47:18government government doesn't give us
- 00:47:20free speech rights we have free speech
- 00:47:21rights that are inalienable to us as
- 00:47:23human beings that's very clear in our
- 00:47:25founding documents and then we affirm
- 00:47:27the government should exist but free
- 00:47:28speech comes
- 00:47:30first you know what does that mean in
- 00:47:32the age of the internet I mean for me
- 00:47:34what I have argued is that the
- 00:47:36distinction in the law between
- 00:47:38Publishers and social media platforms
- 00:47:40gives special rights to the social media
- 00:47:42platform special liability protections
- 00:47:45if you this is section 230 section 230
- 00:47:471996 communication decency act my view
- 00:47:50is that if you're going to be social
- 00:47:50media platform then you uh should have
- 00:47:54as a rule that you're going to allow a
- 00:47:56adult users to decide on their own legal
- 00:48:01content so obviously what kids get
- 00:48:04should be up to their parents in some
- 00:48:06ways and restricted I think illegal
- 00:48:08content that we all agree should be
- 00:48:09censored should be censored without
- 00:48:11question but that adult users should
- 00:48:13decide is that what we have now at X
- 00:48:15we're getting there a little closer I'd
- 00:48:18feel better if that were the law that
- 00:48:20required that on the other hand and I've
- 00:48:23testified on it and I've told Elon what
- 00:48:25I think there's no movement towards
- 00:48:28implementing Michael schomberg's
- 00:48:30proposal on this which some might call a
- 00:48:32common carrier proposal but but I would
- 00:48:34just call you know user you know adult
- 00:48:36user control of legal content um no
- 00:48:38one's moving towards that you know um
- 00:48:41and I'm not pushing it aggressively in
- 00:48:43part because so far it's looking pretty
- 00:48:45good on X but yeah if you get to a place
- 00:48:48where suddenly elon's replaced or he
- 00:48:50loses his mind or whatever and he starts
- 00:48:52to become more sorious dies in a car
- 00:48:54accident dies in a car accident
- 00:48:55something happens forbid I would then
- 00:48:58worry about it because I do feel like
- 00:49:01and people accuse me of exaggerating but
- 00:49:03I do feel like if you don't have X you
- 00:49:06really are in a more totalitarian type
- 00:49:07situation because the censorship on
- 00:49:09Facebook is off the just insane Tik Tok
- 00:49:12censors you if you refuse to go along
- 00:49:15with the company line that people can
- 00:49:17change their biological sex which is
- 00:49:19absurd and so where is the Free Speech
- 00:49:22platform I mean traditional media it's
- 00:49:24just all the problem is traditional
- 00:49:26media so you only really have X and in
- 00:49:28the case of Brazil you had the Supreme
- 00:49:30Court a single Justice out of control
- 00:49:33that was trying to not just censor
- 00:49:35people but to ban them politicians we're
- 00:49:38talking about politicians and
- 00:49:39journalists which is career death I mean
- 00:49:41that's it if you can't be on social
- 00:49:43media platforms he wanted to ban them
- 00:49:45entirely well if that were to occur
- 00:49:48you're in a totalitarian situation so on
- 00:49:51the one hand I think we're in a really
- 00:49:53dangerous fragile moment on the other
- 00:49:55hand I'm a little bit more relaxed we
- 00:49:57also lost a supreme court thing which we
- 00:49:59don't need to go into but basically
- 00:50:01that's kind of where we're at yeah the
- 00:50:02Missouri case I mean that's kind of
- 00:50:04where we're at is that please God
- 00:50:05protect Elon Musk and also at some point
- 00:50:08I would love to see a stronger
- 00:50:10foundation for our Free Speech
- 00:50:12protections uh it's funny you'd
- 00:50:14mentioned common carrier uh yesterday I
- 00:50:17had um Randy Barnett who I don't know
- 00:50:19sure if you're familiar with him but
- 00:50:21he's um he's a one of the sort of
- 00:50:24leading intellectual architects of
- 00:50:25originalism
- 00:50:27he's also basically like an anarco
- 00:50:29libertarian minded person so he's like
- 00:50:31simultaneously been he's like a radical
- 00:50:35and been effective in having an impact
- 00:50:37on legal thought on the conservative
- 00:50:41libertarian side of the spectrum the
- 00:50:42Federalist Society Etc right and he made
- 00:50:46a similar argument um we didn't dive
- 00:50:49super deep but he was basically saying
- 00:50:50that like look this issue of are you a
- 00:50:53common
- 00:50:54carrier are you in a platform form
- 00:50:57position where there's other things
- 00:50:58happening I'm not sure quite I haven't
- 00:51:01grappled with this enough to think about
- 00:51:02fully like what are the criteria is it
- 00:51:05about Network effects is it about yeah
- 00:51:08infrastructure because you know I think
- 00:51:11some of the arguments historically were
- 00:51:14well once you've run the telephone lines
- 00:51:17it's really really expensive it involves
- 00:51:19all kinds of complex property rights in
- 00:51:21eminent domain so you no longer have by
- 00:51:24virtue of the physical infrastructure
- 00:51:26easy entrance and exit right and so we
- 00:51:29need to have some essentially regulation
- 00:51:31right in the form of common C I mean it
- 00:51:33is it is a regulatory regime to say oh
- 00:51:35you're going to build this platform but
- 00:51:38you have to abide by these rules right
- 00:51:41yes well I mean you basically just
- 00:51:42described this very long argument that
- 00:51:44had existed before the internet and the
- 00:51:47social media had risen to power and now
- 00:51:49we're coming back to it but yeah I mean
- 00:51:51it's called a natural monopoly like you
- 00:51:54and it first starts with the electrical
- 00:51:56grid
- 00:51:57something I because I work on energy it
- 00:51:58was a very known thing where yeah I mean
- 00:52:01you don't want to have like five
- 00:52:02companies stringing electrical wire to
- 00:52:04every house I mean it's insane then you
- 00:52:05choose which company I mean it's so
- 00:52:06total everybody recognized as a waste of
- 00:52:09resource so it was a natural monopoly in
- 00:52:11the sense it made sense for it to be a
- 00:52:13monopoly and then you have these
- 00:52:14regulated Monopoly utilities and they
- 00:52:17can either be government-owned or they
- 00:52:18can be private but either way they're
- 00:52:19really heavily regulated so they can't
- 00:52:21price gouge they can't just be like or
- 00:52:24they can't deprive you service because
- 00:52:25you're a Libertarian they can't say
- 00:52:27we're not going to provide electrical
- 00:52:28service to you because you're a
- 00:52:30Libertarian some people want that yeah
- 00:52:32so so then the question is so everyone's
- 00:52:35accepted that on electricity markets I
- 00:52:36mean for the most part there was some it
- 00:52:38doesn't matter there's some tangents
- 00:52:40there but but then you get to the social
- 00:52:41media platforms and you go well are
- 00:52:43there Network effects and even Jack
- 00:52:46dorsy the found the creator of Twitter
- 00:52:49has been sort of a denier of these
- 00:52:51Network effects so they go we're going
- 00:52:52to go do decentralization so we're going
- 00:52:54to go do I think this was blue sky and
- 00:52:56there's one called Mastadon there's one
- 00:52:58called Noster you sort of Federated yeah
- 00:53:01you kind of go and I you know when I'm
- 00:53:03open I'm an open-minded guy I mean I'm
- 00:53:05skeptical because I think Network
- 00:53:06effects are very real I mean they're
- 00:53:08dead like you go there and you're like
- 00:53:10that post has zero views and zero likes
- 00:53:12and whatever and meanwhile like X is
- 00:53:13just like it's just I mean even threads
- 00:53:16where they which is the new Twitter
- 00:53:18clone that that Facebook did it's also
- 00:53:20like they're throttling the social and
- 00:53:22political news so there's really nothing
- 00:53:24like X Twitter that gets you this
- 00:53:27intense like just density of information
- 00:53:31and virality and so the
- 00:53:33virality is this new thing and
- 00:53:36interestingly enough the censorship the
- 00:53:38people that want more censorship are
- 00:53:39also obsessed with virality like
- 00:53:43virality is like the main event in some
- 00:53:45ways because if you're viral then you're
- 00:53:47actually reaching a lot of people and
- 00:53:48you're changing opinion and you're it's
- 00:53:50also how you make a business and there's
- 00:53:52all sorts of reasons to be concerned
- 00:53:53about that how do you get virality on
- 00:53:55these decentralized Networks works I
- 00:53:56don't think it'll ever happen I that's
- 00:53:58my my own personal VI view of it hence
- 00:54:01my view that you need that that
- 00:54:04condition that if you're going to have
- 00:54:05the social media status but it's
- 00:54:07complicated because I'll tell you the
- 00:54:08other complicated thing when you open up
- 00:54:10your New York Times app now on your
- 00:54:13iPhone or your smartphone what's so
- 00:54:15interesting is that in the lower right
- 00:54:17hand corner there are a little blue
- 00:54:19there's a little blue
- 00:54:21notifications uh signal that looks
- 00:54:23identical to the little blue
- 00:54:25notifications on Twitter and such basic
- 00:54:27animals like you open up I got
- 00:54:29notifications so the I think the New
- 00:54:31York Times in particular is becoming
- 00:54:34more like a platform and then the
- 00:54:36platforms like Twitter are becoming more
- 00:54:39like Publishers and so when you and I've
- 00:54:41been working I mean encouraging this
- 00:54:43trend that I mean so you see on Twitter
- 00:54:45you can now publish articles and the the
- 00:54:48format looks a little bit more like
- 00:54:50substack and they really believe in this
- 00:54:52and they want to do that I've
- 00:54:53encouraging them to have like pay walls
- 00:54:54and so you can make money
- 00:54:57so you're starting to see a a blurring
- 00:54:59of the line between publisher and social
- 00:55:01media platform which just makes it even
- 00:55:03more complicated and actually I think
- 00:55:05kind of in some ways I think I don't
- 00:55:07know if it undermines my argument but it
- 00:55:08certainly complicates my argument for
- 00:55:11what I think we ought to do but I don't
- 00:55:13know what else to say I I I just
- 00:55:14describe what I'm seeing to policy
- 00:55:18makers and others and I think that
- 00:55:19they're kind of like let's just see how
- 00:55:20this all shakes out a little bit right
- 00:55:22now the other observation I was going to
- 00:55:25make is that I I think in a moment when
- 00:55:27you have this high level of polarization
- 00:55:28and nothing's been able to happen in
- 00:55:29Congress you have seen more Reliance on
- 00:55:32the Supreme Court and I think to some
- 00:55:34extent I think it's been wonderful and I
- 00:55:35think that some of the Supreme Court
- 00:55:36decisions I agree with the Chevron
- 00:55:37decision for example you know but um I
- 00:55:40also agree with the decision they made
- 00:55:41on homelessness they just made a
- 00:55:43decision that the local cities can clear
- 00:55:45homeless encampments but it was also a
- 00:55:47decision where I was like that only went
- 00:55:49to the Supreme Court because they're not
- 00:55:52able to deal with this problem but like
- 00:55:54the Supreme Court like homelessness
- 00:55:56needs to be dealt with in I don't want
- 00:55:58to overstate complexity but I wrote a
- 00:56:00whole book on it and obviously I think
- 00:56:01it requires a whole set of things
- 00:56:02Supreme Court that's not their job they
- 00:56:04don't write policy they're mostly out
- 00:56:06there to say yes you can do that no you
- 00:56:09can't so I do think though that in a
- 00:56:11kind of legitimation Crisis and also a
- 00:56:13political crisis a governance crisis
- 00:56:16things are going to the Supreme Court
- 00:56:18where the Supreme Court can be like yeah
- 00:56:20yes or no but we can't solve that
- 00:56:22problem that has to be solved by
- 00:56:24government in this media
- 00:56:27world that we live in um one in which
- 00:56:31anyone our own kids can
- 00:56:34become influencers because of the
- 00:56:36virality function that's that's biged
- 00:56:39into the platforms one thing that
- 00:56:41clearly happens is audience capture
- 00:56:45which is to say you develop an audience
- 00:56:49almost always that audience and
- 00:56:53certainly the one that's the most
- 00:56:54financially viable is the one that best
- 00:56:55alow LS with your actual
- 00:56:59values and they then start to make it
- 00:57:02not great when you challenge them right
- 00:57:05like you know we've been yeah um and
- 00:57:08it's because it's like I I didn't come
- 00:57:10here for this like I don't like this I
- 00:57:11mean we've been doing this shows for two
- 00:57:13and a half years and the past past year
- 00:57:16is it's starting to got get more
- 00:57:18traction um organically I had an
- 00:57:21interview with Bill DeBlasio mhm people
- 00:57:24didn't like that you're based in like no
- 00:57:26no no that that was it was quick it was
- 00:57:28and and it didn't get any um viewership
- 00:57:31as a result because it was like oh none
- 00:57:33of the engagement metrics are working
- 00:57:35here the dad Saves America audience
- 00:57:38doesn't like Bill de blasia right now
- 00:57:41part of that breaks my heart because it
- 00:57:43was like I think as a dad and as someone
- 00:57:47that wants to have a positive impact on
- 00:57:49the world like I kind of want us to be
- 00:57:50able to reach across the The Divide and
- 00:57:54we had a nice conversation and and and I
- 00:57:56and I didn't talk about Co for a bunch
- 00:57:58of reasons they weren't like Oh I'm a
- 00:58:00coward it was more like no we had a very
- 00:58:02specific conversation we were going to
- 00:58:03have yeah and it's like n that guy sucks
- 00:58:07and that's that right how do
- 00:58:10you as someone that cares about pursuing
- 00:58:12truth and is doing that along a lot of
- 00:58:16different issues that are really you
- 00:58:18we've mentioned them like yes climate
- 00:58:20trans censorship um homelessness these
- 00:58:24are all hard hard things yes how do you
- 00:58:28keep yourself from getting sucked into a
- 00:58:30Vortex of ideolog audience capture yeah
- 00:58:34um it's such a it's a it's a huge
- 00:58:36important question there's I have a a a
- 00:58:39simplistic uh tactical solution um and
- 00:58:42then a more that's easy and then a more
- 00:58:45difficult one the simple one is that you
- 00:58:47can just have debates with people and so
- 00:58:50I think if it's more of a debate with
- 00:58:51Bill DeBlasio or debate between Bill
- 00:58:53deasio and somebody else your audience
- 00:58:55would have been happy and so you can
- 00:58:57deliver both you can deliver having the
- 00:58:59other view there but also that and then
- 00:59:01people actually really love debates
- 00:59:03right now in fact I think there's we're
- 00:59:04we're there's not enough debates um I
- 00:59:08just did one for Barry Weiss's the Free
- 00:59:09Press on crime in San Francisco and it's
- 00:59:12sold out in like 10 minutes like all my
- 00:59:14my my friends were like oh we can't go
- 00:59:15it's just sold out and everyone's like
- 00:59:17why is there not a bigger venue but I
- 00:59:18think it showed people want the debate I
- 00:59:21also think people want people want
- 00:59:22in-person Gatherings cuz I think that
- 00:59:24there another Paradox is that we're so
- 00:59:26offline we're so online that people
- 00:59:27actually do want the in person so that's
- 00:59:29one thing the second one is yeah I mean
- 00:59:31obviously you you don't want to be
- 00:59:33captured by your audience and so the
- 00:59:35best way to not be captured by your
- 00:59:36audience is to not be captured by your
- 00:59:38audience and how do you do that well you
- 00:59:39do have to write the you have to do that
- 00:59:41stuff and I think that we had it on
- 00:59:44Israel where you know October 7th
- 00:59:47happens and we're just all floored by
- 00:59:49one of my colleagues heard father's
- 00:59:50Israeli but he was you know an
- 00:59:53anti-zionist Israeli so it's very
- 00:59:55complicated and they were you know very
- 00:59:57left wing but she's moved more to the
- 00:59:59right and but we wrote a we wrote a
- 01:00:01pretty simple thing which was sort of
- 01:00:03like Israel has a right to exist it has
- 01:00:05a right to defend itself and we should
- 01:00:07and it should minimize civilian
- 01:00:09casualties and Protect free speech I
- 01:00:11mean it was about as like you could be
- 01:00:13accused of being uh rather basic milk
- 01:00:17toast Middle East commentary yeah milk
- 01:00:19toast but of course it was just too
- 01:00:20early for our readers and we lost a
- 01:00:22bunch of readers and we kind of
- 01:00:25processed that and then a few days later
- 01:00:26we were like um we lost readers and if
- 01:00:30that's what if you wanted to be you know
- 01:00:33just have you know us repeat back to you
- 01:00:35what you already believe then you've
- 01:00:36signed up for the wrong publication so
- 01:00:38um it was good that you
- 01:00:40left um long story short it's a happy
- 01:00:43ending we got more subscribers than we
- 01:00:46had lost you know and I think there is
- 01:00:48something there where readers I had one
- 01:00:50person wrote me a nice long email and
- 01:00:52she was like I was I'm back on I was mad
- 01:00:55um I still probably disagree with you
- 01:00:57you know in terms of cuz it's a little
- 01:00:59bit on a it's a little bit like how much
- 01:01:01civilian casualties in a certain way cuz
- 01:01:03it is
- 01:01:04war um but she was like yeah I don't I
- 01:01:06don't want to just be told what I think
- 01:01:07either you know so you do cultivate your
- 01:01:09audience a little bit and I think you
- 01:01:11you do you do train them a bit to say
- 01:01:14yeah you're not going to agree with
- 01:01:15everything here and you're not going to
- 01:01:16even read everything I mean you know
- 01:01:18like our open rates are you know you
- 01:01:19wish it were 100% it's much lower and
- 01:01:23there's some people that just
- 01:01:24resubscribe and they don't really read a
- 01:01:26lot of it there's some people that might
- 01:01:27read it but then unsubscribe so it's
- 01:01:28just so that's and the other thing I was
- 01:01:31going to say though is that there's also
- 01:01:32critic capture which which I will shout
- 01:01:34out to Ethan Strauss who wrote a really
- 01:01:36good essay about it that some people are
- 01:01:38captured by Their audience other people
- 01:01:39can be captured by their critics in
- 01:01:41other words you get criticized and then
- 01:01:43you end up they're in your head and you
- 01:01:46know I and people get in people always
- 01:01:48say oh living rent you know the whole
- 01:01:49expression is living rentree in
- 01:01:50someone's head and you know and that and
- 01:01:53but I I think it's okay in other words
- 01:01:55I'm always sort of like like I got a
- 01:01:57bunch of little voices in my head you
- 01:01:58know I definitely have some of my
- 01:02:00readers in my head I have some of my
- 01:02:01critics in my head and yeah and you need
- 01:02:04to you know I think especially with
- 01:02:07difficult ones take the time this is
- 01:02:09going to sound really weird but honestly
- 01:02:11I I'm so much better at making my
- 01:02:13judgments after I've done some physical
- 01:02:15exercise in particular both cardio and
- 01:02:19weight lifting because there's no you I
- 01:02:21was like cardio for anxiety you know
- 01:02:24weightlifting for anger but once your
- 01:02:26head is more clear of the emotions that
- 01:02:28are stirred either the fear of losing
- 01:02:30subscribers or the anger at being
- 01:02:32criticized which totally natural
- 01:02:34reaction I think you do come out of it
- 01:02:35being like all right you know here's my
- 01:02:37view and I think you're also in a much
- 01:02:39better position to be like I might have
- 01:02:40been wrong about that I might have
- 01:02:41overstated that or I got this thing
- 01:02:43wrong I think uh there's so much to that
- 01:02:46just at the you know the Andrew huberman
- 01:02:49of it all like needing to walk needing
- 01:02:51to be able to process with forward
- 01:02:52motion and all that stuff absolutely
- 01:02:55it's amazing that his recipe is so
- 01:02:57simple and yet the the demand for it
- 01:03:00keeps going up and people want more and
- 01:03:02more from him it's like it's like I know
- 01:03:05that I need Morning Light and exercise
- 01:03:07and to eat right and to get a good
- 01:03:08amount of sleep but I would like to you
- 01:03:10have you tell me it again and show me
- 01:03:12more signs I'm the same way I'm a huge
- 01:03:13huge fan of his I think the related
- 01:03:15piece of the that I wanted to ask you
- 01:03:17about which is I think a deeper question
- 01:03:22is how do you where do you find your
- 01:03:25source of Courage because it feels to me
- 01:03:28like the demand for courage is it's
- 01:03:32always great it does feel like it's
- 01:03:34especially great now in this domain to
- 01:03:37be courageous as someone in a public in
- 01:03:40the Public Square trying to impart
- 01:03:42information and trying to stay truthful
- 01:03:44trying to stay open-minded and it seems
- 01:03:46like one of the dangers isn't just
- 01:03:49audience capture as a matter of an
- 01:03:51incentive but ego capture like a
- 01:03:56yeah addiction to success as a matter of
- 01:04:00am I good am I worthy and that is more
- 01:04:05fundamental and it's
- 01:04:07more difficult to contend with if you're
- 01:04:10struggling with that and I I don't think
- 01:04:12that's just in media that's in
- 01:04:13everything but how do you you're you're
- 01:04:14very successful you've made a huge
- 01:04:16impact out there thank you how have you
- 01:04:20kept yourself from getting a giant head
- 01:04:22and being a
- 01:04:24disaster oh man well first of all
- 01:04:26there's so much in that that's really
- 01:04:27important I mean first of all there's
- 01:04:29too much pressure on us to be good like
- 01:04:31there's way too much pressure on us to
- 01:04:33be good and uh we have to repeat these
- 01:04:36ancient wisdoms to ourself about the
- 01:04:38line between good and evil runs through
- 01:04:40the heart of every man
- 01:04:41suen or sorry is that doski I think it's
- 01:04:45okay yeah I think so it's like you know
- 01:04:48forget about it's Mark
- 01:04:49Twain you know like and N has it too and
- 01:04:52and it's in Jesus says it and and I
- 01:04:54think it's it's hard but I think it's
- 01:04:56also yeah it means also then if you
- 01:04:58really believe that then also you're a
- 01:04:59little bit more forgiving of others and
- 01:05:01you're you open more space up for people
- 01:05:03to to be wrong and not punish them and
- 01:05:06to be um forgiving including of yourself
- 01:05:10so those are all very very important
- 01:05:12practices I mean the other one I really
- 01:05:13love is the one about how it's not
- 01:05:15courageous if you're if you're not
- 01:05:17scared like courage people are always
- 01:05:18like you must be Fearless it's like oh
- 01:05:20no no that's not it it's like it's not
- 01:05:23courage if you're like I'm unafraid of
- 01:05:25it then it's it's like then there's
- 01:05:26nothing at stake you do it because you
- 01:05:27do it when you're scared so I mean
- 01:05:30there's a calculation that goes involved
- 01:05:32in it first of all like the people that
- 01:05:33were hiding Jews in their Attic in
- 01:05:35Germany you know or in Poland or you
- 01:05:38were hiding them in the cellar the
- 01:05:39people that were doing that yes were
- 01:05:41they more empathic to their Jewish
- 01:05:42neighbors for sure but they're also
- 01:05:44calculating can I talk my way out of
- 01:05:47this you know and I think you don't
- 01:05:49underestimate that either that courage
- 01:05:51it's not sometimes it gets presented as
- 01:05:53a sort of like just you know oh you know
- 01:05:56just do you have it or not and are you
- 01:05:58you know Warrior are you a warrior or
- 01:06:01not just just pound you no no like you
- 01:06:04don't want to get killed and you don't
- 01:06:06you don't want to lose all your friends
- 01:06:08now that may be a consequence one of the
- 01:06:10consequences of what happens um but I do
- 01:06:13think yeah I mean the decline of courage
- 01:06:16in the society as and the the la the
- 01:06:18declining appreciation of it as a virtue
- 01:06:20I just saw this whole I just saw the
- 01:06:22suan someone did a Twitter thread on the
- 01:06:24suan nson Harvard
- 01:06:26address I think and that was part of it
- 01:06:28it was like the decline of courage and
- 01:06:30as this really essential virtue to teach
- 01:06:33people and so yeah it's um it's not
- 01:06:36something you can moralize against it's
- 01:06:38definitely something that has to be
- 01:06:39inculcated in kids and they have to be
- 01:06:40taught to take risks I mean I worry
- 01:06:42about it because I do think that kids
- 01:06:44that were raised on social media they
- 01:06:46have that Fishbowl effect and so there's
- 01:06:48so much anxiety around risk taking this
- 01:06:50is something that that Abigail shrier
- 01:06:52and Joe Rogan were talking about where
- 01:06:55you were not seeing the entrepreneurial
- 01:06:56we're not seeing the risk taking we're
- 01:06:57seeing a much much greater fear of
- 01:07:00failure so some Yeah Boy something's got
- 01:07:02to be done to to reassure people that it
- 01:07:05all just comes with just huge quantities
- 01:07:08of failure like there's no successful
- 01:07:10person that didn't have a a fair amount
- 01:07:12of failure along the way and found and
- 01:07:15usually the greater the success the more
- 01:07:17significant failures they had I mean
- 01:07:19really it's just it's awful it's so
- 01:07:21cliche so cringe at this point to have
- 01:07:23to talk about but it's just like it's
- 01:07:24all about the adversity it's all about
- 01:07:26the test if that's not occurring then be
- 01:07:30worried you know it's the it's the over
- 01:07:32protectionism and the codling are in
- 01:07:34some ways at the heart of our culture's
- 01:07:37biggest
- 01:07:38problems this show began Life as a
- 01:07:42documentary that I was um working on
- 01:07:45called The Working title was the kids
- 01:07:47are not all right and it
- 01:07:50was inspired in part by experiences I
- 01:07:54was witnessing from my my son who's now
- 01:07:5519 but the time was in you know the
- 01:07:57beginning of middle school and he was
- 01:07:59doing great but a lot of his peers were
- 01:08:01like really nervous like what are you
- 01:08:04nervous about you're like you're well
- 01:08:06off kids like what's the problem here
- 01:08:08yeah um but really seriously like
- 01:08:10suffering from anxiety that I didn't I
- 01:08:12couldn't relate to as like a gen xer you
- 01:08:14know the Forgotten generation Gen X
- 01:08:16we're all Boomers according to everybody
- 01:08:18no um no we're having Gen X is just
- 01:08:21having a moment right now I think we're
- 01:08:22having a moment right now so yeah Gen X
- 01:08:24it's it's our time to assert our
- 01:08:28existence our time to
- 01:08:30rule it'll be a don't worry it'll be a
- 01:08:32very narrow won last long but yeah we'll
- 01:08:34have Winona Rider by our side um but but
- 01:08:38you know and then the coddling of the
- 01:08:39American mind that book yeah articulated
- 01:08:42a lot of what just struck a nerve in me
- 01:08:45that how are you going to have a free
- 01:08:46Society if there's a generation that
- 01:08:48hasn't practiced mastering your own
- 01:08:51agency you're a father how how have you
- 01:08:55how has thinking about these kind of
- 01:08:56things change the way you approach
- 01:08:59fatherhood I mean it really came because
- 01:09:01I was raised like that I mean I was
- 01:09:03raised by parents that were like life's
- 01:09:05not fair it's not fair life's not fair
- 01:09:07you know that was all that was like it
- 01:09:08from beginning they were also they were
- 01:09:11really good because they had a they had
- 01:09:13a philosophy and it came from a German
- 01:09:16parenting it was not Spock it was drers
- 01:09:20and it was about a couple of things
- 01:09:22logical and natural consequences for
- 01:09:24behaviors
- 01:09:26um good and bad and that do not protect
- 01:09:27your kids from logical and natural
- 01:09:29consequences behaviors and then don't do
- 01:09:31anything for your kids that they can do
- 01:09:32for themselves MH you know so it would
- 01:09:34be you want to snack well push the chair
- 01:09:37over to the counter in the kitchen and
- 01:09:39you climb up and you're little toddlers
- 01:09:41so I mean yeah it's like all like little
- 01:09:43kids can chop vegetables I mean at very
- 01:09:45young ages by the way I mean little kids
- 01:09:48can clean you know so for sure that was
- 01:09:51always something I wanted to see the
- 01:09:53kids participating in was the cooking
- 01:09:55and the cleaning I wanted to do more of
- 01:09:56it it's you don't your kids are not
- 01:09:58entirely your own you're not able to do
- 01:10:00it all so but I think it's huge you know
- 01:10:03like I love when you go to Japan and
- 01:10:05you're at the restaurant it's like
- 01:10:06there's the top chef he's the top chef
- 01:10:08but he is washing he's cleaning he's
- 01:10:11doing the dishes like there's that part
- 01:10:14of the work I think is so essential so
- 01:10:17yeah I mean I even before but when I was
- 01:10:19still on the left I and identified on
- 01:10:22the left I still was really had in
- 01:10:25conflict with parenting culture in
- 01:10:27Berkeley which was already that
- 01:10:28helicopter parenting that overprotect
- 01:10:31and then the moralizing on top of it so
- 01:10:32if you were like I'm not into that and
- 01:10:35and as opposed to being like well you do
- 01:10:37it differently then you're a bad parent
- 01:10:39and then of course for the mothers in
- 01:10:40particular being called a bad mother
- 01:10:42it's like the worst thing you can say
- 01:10:43about a mom so it's very very hard I
- 01:10:46mean I think that um there has been
- 01:10:48enough been a lot of push back on it you
- 01:10:50know the French parenting the the kind
- 01:10:53of the you know that there's been where
- 01:10:54there's an aware ESS of it feels like it
- 01:10:57still hasn't quite broken yet uh no I
- 01:11:00think um I think there's a couple forces
- 01:11:02at work uh it's funny you know you were
- 01:11:04talking about your German uh descent
- 01:11:07upbringing there's a book called I think
- 01:11:09it's akung baby about an American who um
- 01:11:13moved to Germany and sort and gave birth
- 01:11:15to her kids in Germany or they were very
- 01:11:17very young so for the first like eight
- 01:11:18years of their childhood she was in
- 01:11:20Germany and when and then they moved
- 01:11:23back to the States and not to Berkeley
- 01:11:25to Idaho mhm she's like oh my God
- 01:11:28Germany's a Freer country than America
- 01:11:30mhm like her experience of the anxiety
- 01:11:33and the overprotection and the safetyism
- 01:11:35and was there in Idaho even it was in
- 01:11:37Idaho yeah like what are you what are
- 01:11:40you leaving your kids at the park by
- 01:11:42what's wrong with you what are you like
- 01:11:43this is neglect like let's get let's
- 01:11:45call the cops it's like well he's nine
- 01:11:48well how about the Danes who just leave
- 01:11:49their their the baby strollers outside
- 01:11:51the restaurant while they go inside the
- 01:11:53restaurant and have dinner I mean it's
- 01:11:55amazing this is something that I
- 01:11:58find hard to Grapple with in a age where
- 01:12:01there are people that need
- 01:12:03therapy but we got here as a species
- 01:12:07through some really hard stuff oh for
- 01:12:10sure for hundreds of thousands of years
- 01:12:13most of which was traumatic at almost
- 01:12:15every step and we didn't necessarily
- 01:12:17have a whole lot of therapy right and
- 01:12:19we're still here and I don't have I
- 01:12:23don't think I've got some equilibrium on
- 01:12:26the where is that useful and where is it
- 01:12:29not is the body keeping the score what
- 01:12:31does that even mean and um you know how
- 01:12:34do you think about that because it does
- 01:12:35feel like so it does feel like
- 01:12:38this this therapeutic mindset it's a big
- 01:12:42part of the pathologies in the
- 01:12:44homelessness issue yes so how do you
- 01:12:46think about that yeah it's all it's all
- 01:12:47the same thing it really is I mean what
- 01:12:50one of the interesting things for me was
- 01:12:51always like why is it that the
- 01:12:53Christians in the Society or or and Jews
- 01:12:56and Christians really seem like they're
- 01:12:58the stricter ones when you know
- 01:13:01Christianity in particular was all about
- 01:13:02being compassionate and it was the big
- 01:13:04correction to the Old Testament it was
- 01:13:06Jesus being compassionate and helping
- 01:13:08the poor and there was St Francis well
- 01:13:10it's because actually there was always a
- 01:13:12big stoic core inside of Christianity
- 01:13:16and that that was really what started
- 01:13:17falling apart over the over the last
- 01:13:19several hundred years you know if you
- 01:13:20kind of start with Russo's advocacy of
- 01:13:23codling your children um up until now I
- 01:13:26mean some ways it's a slow process some
- 01:13:28some ways it's it's obviously
- 01:13:30accelerated but yeah I mean the basic
- 01:13:32stoic principles are are there in
- 01:13:35Judaism they're there in Christianity
- 01:13:37they're there in Hinduism you look at
- 01:13:38Indian parents and how they rais their
- 01:13:40kids and and it can go too far and
- 01:13:42you're like well for sure push your kid
- 01:13:44to be a doctor to such an extent that
- 01:13:46they jump over a Gulch and Cornell yeah
- 01:13:48for sure and you would even argue I mean
- 01:13:50one might even argue that you're
- 01:13:51actually that would even You' be getting
- 01:13:52into a violation of of the stoic princip
- 01:13:55principles which are then also trying to
- 01:13:56support individual agency and so when
- 01:13:58the parents are over involved you can be
- 01:14:01over involved in coddling you can also
- 01:14:03be over involved in demanding that they
- 01:14:05pursue a particular career and and not
- 01:14:07making choices for themselves so I do
- 01:14:09think there is clearly a stoic middle
- 01:14:12path it's cognitive behavioral therapy
- 01:14:15it's not that you know um it's not the
- 01:14:18victim victimhood ideology which is
- 01:14:20really what's taken over so for me that
- 01:14:23is like the main event in the culture
- 01:14:25and it I see it's just driving
- 01:14:28everything it then gets picked up and
- 01:14:31turned into an ideology and a Dogma in
- 01:14:33politics and that is what we I think
- 01:14:35that's what that is what wokeism when
- 01:14:37people are like what is wokeism I think
- 01:14:38that is at the heart of it it is
- 01:14:39victimhood ideology it's both the idea
- 01:14:42that some people are victims and other
- 01:14:44people are not but it's also the idea
- 01:14:47that if you are a victim then the best
- 01:14:49thing for you is to be coddled and
- 01:14:51sheltered and to be shielded from the
- 01:14:52consequences of your own action that's
- 01:14:55not true either I mean the better view
- 01:14:58my view is this older Joseph Campbell
- 01:15:01Heroes Journey view where you when you
- 01:15:03the the process of maturation is a
- 01:15:06process of being victimized and
- 01:15:07suffering and going through adversity
- 01:15:08and then coming out of it um a wiser
- 01:15:11more mature and stronger individual but
- 01:15:13there's been a strong effort I mean
- 01:15:15that's why when I say my book is why
- 01:15:18Elites subvert civilization it gets at
- 01:15:21that that entropy to some extent that
- 01:15:24codling that decadence that has that
- 01:15:27sets in inevitably I think really with
- 01:15:29most civilizations all civilizations
- 01:15:31really my son in seventh grade wrote
- 01:15:35read a book by choice that I just read
- 01:15:38last summer and it is um man searched
- 01:15:41for meaning by Victor Franco one of my
- 01:15:42favorite books yeah
- 01:15:44and the thing that's so crazy because he
- 01:15:47read that in meditations um he was going
- 01:15:49to act in Academy which is like radical
- 01:15:52monor on steroids the the guides are not
- 01:15:55to answer questions so they had to read
- 01:15:57a deep book they had a bunch to choose
- 01:15:59from he picked those two kind of in
- 01:16:01succession he came out the other end of
- 01:16:03just reading those books like
- 01:16:05transformed wow amazing and so last
- 01:16:07summer I was like I maybe I didn't read
- 01:16:10this book I thought I did in college but
- 01:16:13let me reread
- 01:16:14it and it feels like the book of our
- 01:16:18times oh it's incredible so why do you
- 01:16:21love it oh I mean I well was so so I
- 01:16:23have a long relationship with Victor
- 01:16:24Frankle and and and but I came to him
- 01:16:27right as Co hit and I was a little bit
- 01:16:31depressed I mean I don't want to say
- 01:16:32depressed cuz it makes it that would
- 01:16:34make it too Grand but it was just
- 01:16:35feeling like like you know like what am
- 01:16:37I doing and like you know I was supposed
- 01:16:38to travel and you're all home
- 01:16:41and and then I started watching Victor
- 01:16:43Frankle I there were videos of Victor
- 01:16:46Frankle on YouTube I mean you I haven't
- 01:16:48even seen oh God they're incredible he
- 01:16:50would do ones he did one in Berkeley in
- 01:16:52the' 60s and I remember seeing it and it
- 01:16:54was just the Classic Victor Frankl it's
- 01:16:57all about
- 01:16:58mentality I was also really into I'm
- 01:17:00still into Liverpool and they had a new
- 01:17:02coach at the time and he was always
- 01:17:04about mentality mentality mentality and
- 01:17:06you you think soccer is a physical game
- 01:17:07it's a mental game I think every game is
- 01:17:10a mental game every game is a mental
- 01:17:11game um everything's mental and so so
- 01:17:14yeah you read that and you and then you
- 01:17:16I would I start watching these videos
- 01:17:17and I'd be like wow I feel better
- 01:17:19watching the videos the video is
- 01:17:21performing cognitive behavioral therapy
- 01:17:23on me and then I also he was also very
- 01:17:26good about you need a goal not just a
- 01:17:28life goal like you need a goal right now
- 01:17:31you know like you need something to do
- 01:17:33and I was like oh I need something to do
- 01:17:34so then I did the book contract for San
- 01:17:37Francisco and I was Off to the Races I
- 01:17:39knew that I knew that Co was just going
- 01:17:40to be this this is going to be shut down
- 01:17:43for a while so I needed something to do
- 01:17:45in that period I needed something and
- 01:17:46I'm always like that if I don't have I
- 01:17:47have a high need for that I need
- 01:17:50something to chase after and so it's the
- 01:17:53pursuit and and I that was was one of
- 01:17:55the big lessons you know from that was
- 01:17:58just having the the pursuit that the
- 01:18:00happiness is in happiness is a byproduct
- 01:18:02of pursuing something that gives you Pur
- 01:18:04it doesn't you don't pursue happiness it
- 01:18:06ensues yes that's a very nice way of
- 01:18:09putting it it's um well that's him I can
- 01:18:11take zero cred okay yeah that's great
- 01:18:13yeah he's full of those I went and read
- 01:18:15all of his books I read man from me and
- 01:18:17I went and read all of his obscure
- 01:18:18essays and I just I was like this is and
- 01:18:21of course it's funny because you're like
- 01:18:22it's just so simple like why do you need
- 01:18:25what how much more is there to say about
- 01:18:26it but it didn't matter it was very
- 01:18:28satisfying for me and that was at a late
- 01:18:29stage I mean I'd already known him and
- 01:18:31read him and it still benefits me
- 01:18:33mankind has a final freedom and that is
- 01:18:36the freedom to choose how to respond to
- 01:18:38your circumstances so you know the first
- 01:18:40half of the book it's about going
- 01:18:42through all the worst concentration
- 01:18:43camps in Nazi Germany right and
- 01:18:45observing the difference in those who
- 01:18:48could like hold on to their sanity and
- 01:18:50those who couldn't and he's basically
- 01:18:51saying like even if you're in a
- 01:18:52concentration camp you still have the
- 01:18:55freedom and it has struck me that that
- 01:18:58is not the final Freedom that is the
- 01:19:00First Freedom that is the that is the
- 01:19:02foundation of freedom is recognizing
- 01:19:04that no I have to choose how to respond
- 01:19:07yes and that feels like the vaccine to
- 01:19:10victimhood it is the antidote right and
- 01:19:13what's funny is
- 01:19:15how Central that is to Liberal pop
- 01:19:20psychology you know and so even in the
- 01:19:2260s like that was the human po potential
- 01:19:25movement it's called the human potential
- 01:19:27movement and it is Victor Frankle and
- 01:19:30it's uh you know maslo and it's um Fritz
- 01:19:34pearls and it's all these people that
- 01:19:36are say it's Ein Rand and and Rand yeah
- 01:19:39for sure you know on the right you know
- 01:19:41these other characters were more
- 01:19:42associated with the left with esselin
- 01:19:44with Big Sir with hot tubs and sunsets
- 01:19:46and whales and LSD and but certainly
- 01:19:49even in the Psychedelic culture there's
- 01:19:51some freeing your mind that's what that
- 01:19:54was was this experience of oh I don't
- 01:19:56have to do really anything all you have
- 01:19:58to really do is die that's the only
- 01:20:00thing you have to do that means
- 01:20:01everything else is open up all these
- 01:20:03possibilities open up and that it's
- 01:20:05really up to you and then you get to the
- 01:20:07politics the leftwing politics and it's
- 01:20:09the exact opposite it's that you're
- 01:20:11completely determined by your race and
- 01:20:14gender and class and it's just awful
- 01:20:16it's a totally oppressive and I was
- 01:20:19trying to figure out how did that happen
- 01:20:21like how do you go from this totally
- 01:20:24liberating
- 01:20:25ideology on the in the Progressive
- 01:20:28culture and left to this just awful you
- 01:20:32know disempowering dispiriting ideology
- 01:20:35that Victor Frankle would have hated
- 01:20:36like how did that
- 01:20:38occur so I mean the fact how did occur
- 01:20:41how did it occur and so well I will say
- 01:20:43the fact that it did occur also means
- 01:20:45that I think it doesn't have to go that
- 01:20:47way there can you can go you can fight
- 01:20:49back against it yeah I mean there's
- 01:20:51obviously a bunch of um I mean some of
- 01:20:54it is the modeling culture some of it is
- 01:20:56entropy it's just easier to be lazy you
- 01:20:59know it's just easier to I mean I love
- 01:21:02Instagram like it's easier to go through
- 01:21:05the Instagram reals they're amazing like
- 01:21:07I watched parkour you know I'm like this
- 01:21:08is fantastic it's just easier to do that
- 01:21:10than it is to get yourself up and sit
- 01:21:12down and write a book that is hard so
- 01:21:15there is just something about the
- 01:21:16energetics of it and then the prosperity
- 01:21:18it means that you know I I wealth
- 01:21:22disease we're just lazy it's you don't
- 01:21:24have to do it even like my kids it's
- 01:21:25like you know it's like what do you want
- 01:21:26for Christmas I don't know I got
- 01:21:28everything I need I mean it's kind of
- 01:21:29nice in that way but it is like there's
- 01:21:31like not there's not that pressure that
- 01:21:33you need in order to to go and make a
- 01:21:36life so I think all those things have
- 01:21:38something to do with it it's going to
- 01:21:39have to come back through language and
- 01:21:41through podcast I mean maybe we'll have
- 01:21:43some awful financial crisis that' be
- 01:21:45great in some ways if you did or some
- 01:21:47awful external shock or something to
- 01:21:49make people have to do it but I just
- 01:21:51think it's we can't count on that and it
- 01:21:53means that you are going to have to and
- 01:21:54this kind of conversation and people
- 01:21:57changing how they raised their kids and
- 01:21:58opting out of of these toxic you know
- 01:22:02disempowering you know parenting
- 01:22:04cultures that have really taken over at
- 01:22:07least among kind of elite and upper
- 01:22:10middle class cultures one of the things
- 01:22:12the other things interesting in Frankle
- 01:22:14and it led me to want
- 01:22:16to explore this more not I haven't
- 01:22:19really yet but um he's talking about the
- 01:22:23the the comfort and the Cod
- 01:22:25of the generation in the 50s right and
- 01:22:27and I've talked to some other friends
- 01:22:29who got more time on their hands I think
- 01:22:32who have said oh this is the perennial
- 01:22:34problem the sense of the of the sort of
- 01:22:36decadent coddling sort of getting
- 01:22:38lazy this is not new this is not new to
- 01:22:41our time now this is part of this
- 01:22:45whether it's cyclical or or what it's
- 01:22:47it's something that kind of might be
- 01:22:49cyclical going on yes um although
- 01:22:54although one point I'll just jump in if
- 01:22:55you don't mind um was that you know um
- 01:22:58and not to again we're obviously biased
- 01:23:01because we're gen xers but what happened
- 01:23:03with the Gen xers is that the Boomers
- 01:23:06who were raised at you know with with
- 01:23:09Mom at home you know Mom was at home for
- 01:23:12the for the you know 1945 to 1965 1970
- 01:23:17mom's at home you get to feminism and
- 01:23:20women also changes to the economy but
- 01:23:22for whatever reason the you know a
- 01:23:24significant share of the moms leave and
- 01:23:28it's also not just that everybody's mom
- 01:23:31was was not at home when the kids came
- 01:23:32home from school you know we weren't all
- 01:23:34lashy kids but the ones whose parents
- 01:23:36weren't home would bring the kids whose
- 01:23:39moms were home and then their moms who
- 01:23:41were codling them they would escape the
- 01:23:43mom and they would we would go in the
- 01:23:45house and you'd have this un what you
- 01:23:46know what John Hy and yeah and they all
- 01:23:48talk about this unstructured play is so
- 01:23:52important Peter gray is great on this
- 01:23:54yes so he's great on this and so we were
- 01:23:55out there you know I mean look we did
- 01:23:57crazy things right we set things on fire
- 01:23:59and there was sex there's a lot more
- 01:24:02early there's a lot younger sex and Drug
- 01:24:04experimentation going on with Gen xers
- 01:24:06than there are with kids today in some
- 01:24:07ways thank gosh you know thank God
- 01:24:09that's the case because like my kids are
- 01:24:12like have to see them do that but it's
- 01:24:14like you know you watch Fast Times at
- 01:24:15Ridgemont High and you're like I can't
- 01:24:17believe how young they are when they're
- 01:24:18doing all these things and but that was
- 01:24:21that did I think provide that some
- 01:24:23amount of adversity that I think kids
- 01:24:25that came after us and even that kids
- 01:24:27Boomers before us didn't have yeah I'm
- 01:24:30I'm I'm big into Gen X life I think uh
- 01:24:33my memories of my childhood and I have a
- 01:24:36super neurotic Italian mother who if you
- 01:24:39talk to her now you would think oh you
- 01:24:42must have been super coddled cuz she's
- 01:24:43constantly worried about me like I'm at
- 01:24:46all times on the verge of like
- 01:24:48catastrophic risk oh oh my God you're
- 01:24:51going to Vegas it's 115 be careful it's
- 01:24:54like they've got air conditioning at
- 01:24:55Harris's Mom it's going to be all right
- 01:24:57but I'd get home from school and she was
- 01:25:00there but we would go out into the
- 01:25:03neighborhood yeah unsupervised with no
- 01:25:05GPS tracking device until the sun went
- 01:25:07down there is something you know you
- 01:25:09talked about exercise I think there's
- 01:25:12something about the lessons of physical
- 01:25:16reality that if you don't experience
- 01:25:19them you can be stuck in utopian
- 01:25:21thinking I like construction I I I if I
- 01:25:24was going to do some other field I would
- 01:25:26go into construction I just happened to
- 01:25:28like building stuff I was a Lego kid and
- 01:25:31when you're when you're framing a door
- 01:25:34in a house no matter what the
- 01:25:36architecture plan
- 01:25:38says there's a bunch of imperfections
- 01:25:41and the way you get it to be Plum and
- 01:25:43flush and able to close and have that
- 01:25:46hinge leave the door open at any
- 01:25:48distance without swinging is
- 01:25:51shims a bunch of little wedges that you
- 01:25:54have to manually tap in to get it right
- 01:25:57yeah and that's reality reality requires
- 01:26:01shims at every turn it is not
- 01:26:05Blackboard
- 01:26:06theories about mathematical proofs of
- 01:26:09regressions of
- 01:26:10XYZ 100% 100% well it's coming up I mean
- 01:26:14there a great uh I you've seen there's a
- 01:26:16bunch of Steve Jobs stuff that's going
- 01:26:18on on Instagram yeah and he does the
- 01:26:20same thing people think that 90% of it's
- 01:26:22is a great idea it's not it's 10% is a
- 01:26:24great idea 90% is execution 100% agree I
- 01:26:27even sometimes call myself like a
- 01:26:29physicalist you can say pragmatist but
- 01:26:31that sometimes sounds like you're just
- 01:26:32willing to compromise your principles
- 01:26:33but like I'm almost like a physical so
- 01:26:35when I looked at the home when I came to
- 01:26:37the homeless issue cuz I just done this
- 01:26:39book on the environment on the
- 01:26:40environment it's like you're
- 01:26:42transforming energy and materials into
- 01:26:45food electricity fuels Vehicles
- 01:26:47Transportation like it's a phys the
- 01:26:49environment is and energy is a physical
- 01:26:52set of processes and it's farming and
- 01:26:56it's like power plants and it's machines
- 01:26:58like that's it and like all the
- 01:27:01ideologies that come in after the fact
- 01:27:04they need to respond to those physical
- 01:27:05realities so then when I came on to
- 01:27:07homelessness I was always like okay
- 01:27:09you've got this person on the street
- 01:27:12they're living on the street what's
- 01:27:14wrong with them what needs to happen
- 01:27:17with them like these are people yes you
- 01:27:20know these are physical bodies of people
- 01:27:24they they got to go somewhere where are
- 01:27:26they going and what happens to them
- 01:27:28there and it was a very much more of a
- 01:27:29kind of I remember thinking about it
- 01:27:31that way and then that was how I came to
- 01:27:33this view that you needed a Statewide
- 01:27:37system that so you could have people
- 01:27:39moving to where they needed to be at the
- 01:27:41state level rather than just trying to
- 01:27:43treat every
- 01:27:44schizophrenic and and heroin or fenel
- 01:27:47addict in San Francisco it's not going
- 01:27:48to work because everyone's going to come
- 01:27:50there San Francisco can't doesn't have
- 01:27:53the physical facilities to do that it's
- 01:27:56come up in another way I'm really
- 01:27:57obsessed with this question you and I
- 01:27:58are very aligned on this it's come up in
- 01:28:00this other way where I've been noticing
- 01:28:03that Millennials and Zoomers are
- 01:28:06struggling with the distinction between
- 01:28:09uh Speech and action a lot you know so
- 01:28:12one of my one of my not favorite but a
- 01:28:15moment that I'm obsessed with is this
- 01:28:17moment where these black lives matter
- 01:28:18protesters in Washington DC demanded
- 01:28:21that this young woman not she wasn't
- 01:28:23young she in her 40s a mid you know
- 01:28:25middle-aged professional having a glass
- 01:28:27of wine outside at a at a at a
- 01:28:30restaurant in Washington DC I remember
- 01:28:32do you remember this and they're demand
- 01:28:33there's a video of it and they're
- 01:28:35demanding that she raise her fist um and
- 01:28:38so they end up screaming at her with
- 01:28:41their fists over their heads um they
- 01:28:44thought I mean giving them the benefit
- 01:28:46of Doubt and these are kids that you
- 01:28:48know I've had some arguments about but I
- 01:28:50think these are probably pretty
- 01:28:51sensitive kids I call them kids like
- 01:28:53college age kids pretty sensitive kids
- 01:28:56they're very upset about George Floyd
- 01:28:59and you know black lives matter whatever
- 01:29:01but they've turned into total
- 01:29:03psychopaths in that moment and I there's
- 01:29:05there's situational psychology that's I
- 01:29:07think different so so I'm not saying
- 01:29:09that they're Psychopaths I'm saying that
- 01:29:12in that behavior with a mob of people
- 01:29:16holding but I think that they're also
- 01:29:18they're they've lost sight of that
- 01:29:20they're in a real situation that young
- 01:29:23that woman is afraid she is going like
- 01:29:26this that's a moment that should like
- 01:29:29make you kind of go oh wait a second
- 01:29:30guys we've gone too far like she's
- 01:29:32scared she hasn't done anything wrong
- 01:29:35she's sitting here having a glass of
- 01:29:36wine we've gone we've lost our minds
- 01:29:39that's one case and then the other case
- 01:29:41I would get it was in Brazil before you
- 01:29:43go to the other case there's another
- 01:29:45piece of that that's easy to just forget
- 01:29:47yeah which is I've seen that image I I
- 01:29:50can't I think I've seen the video too
- 01:29:52yeah if you are a man
- 01:29:54in that mob threatening that woman right
- 01:29:59what has broken in you about the nature
- 01:30:03of what your role should be that you
- 01:30:05would terrorize a young just a an
- 01:30:09innocent woman that you would be raising
- 01:30:11your fist in the name of social justice
- 01:30:13that that is it is it is angering to me
- 01:30:19as a father as a man I see that and I
- 01:30:21say as your daughter You' be yeah how
- 01:30:23dare you
- 01:30:24raise your hand to a woman in the name
- 01:30:27of anything it's like you like I'm sorry
- 01:30:31like like I my my defensiveness no no it
- 01:30:34makes you mad yeah for sure gets me on
- 01:30:36this we we handwave that away like
- 01:30:39that's some ancient something or I don't
- 01:30:42know it's like no that's as fundamental
- 01:30:45the kids were raised wrong this they
- 01:30:47were they were not raised right there's
- 01:30:49something wrong with that yeah I
- 01:30:50agree is a virtue yeah
- 01:30:55yeah well also it's empowering to be
- 01:30:57someone who's a
- 01:30:59protector like I it's awful there's more
- 01:31:02to say about the other it's such a
- 01:31:04fascinating case right before that the
- 01:31:06black leaders of that black lives matter
- 01:31:10mob which is what it was they said they
- 01:31:13said let the they have the white kids
- 01:31:16get in front to terrorize this woman and
- 01:31:20the white kids did it and you know so
- 01:31:22you're in a clearly
- 01:31:24hierarchical situation where the black
- 01:31:26kids are saying go ter you go terrorize
- 01:31:28your own deeply problematic in a lot of
- 01:31:31different ways um the other one I had is
- 01:31:33that in is both in Brazil but also in
- 01:31:35the United States Brazil had a January
- 01:31:376th type event that similar to ours and
- 01:31:41similar to here the Brazilian media and
- 01:31:44Elites demanded online censorship
- 01:31:48because they blamed election
- 01:31:50misinformation for people invading the
- 01:31:53Congress us how convenient yeah so so
- 01:31:57they would kind of go but so a very
- 01:31:58strange situation where like you kind of
- 01:31:59go well there was a security breach and
- 01:32:03people broke the law and they went
- 01:32:05inside the building that's a problem a
- 01:32:08of security and B people trespass and
- 01:32:10they should be arrested and in trouble
- 01:32:12that how do you get censorship online
- 01:32:15censorship out of that I there's a lot
- 01:32:17of there's a more of a backstory to it
- 01:32:19which is that I think there was people
- 01:32:21that really wanted to use the events and
- 01:32:25I know it for a fact that people want to
- 01:32:27use these real world events as
- 01:32:29justification for censorship I also do
- 01:32:32think it shows that this distinction
- 01:32:35between your mental your mentality and
- 01:32:39your physical reality has broken down
- 01:32:42and that or it's not gotten it's not as
- 01:32:44clear for for younger Generations as I
- 01:32:48think it was for people that spent you
- 01:32:50know if you were like if you are raised
- 01:32:52in a physical environment Enon where
- 01:32:54you're scared of bullies and you're like
- 01:32:56you really have that I mean I think
- 01:32:57there was probably more bullying you
- 01:32:59know when we were kids we've
- 01:33:00overcorrected on bullying yeah we've
- 01:33:02overc corrected on it exactly and so
- 01:33:03then when does it come out it comes out
- 01:33:05in a situation then where they don't
- 01:33:07even think they're bullying I mean to be
- 01:33:08fair that mob they didn't think they're
- 01:33:10being bullying they thought they were
- 01:33:12spreading The Good The Gospel of BLM but
- 01:33:15I do think that it sort of shows that
- 01:33:17something's been something needs to get
- 01:33:19reoriented like we need to get kids out
- 01:33:22into the world you know doing service
- 01:33:25work going camping whatever there needs
- 01:33:26to be some re-engagement with physical
- 01:33:29reality there's something that's
- 01:33:31happening for me personally that I feel
- 01:33:35like I'm on guard for a confirmation
- 01:33:38bias
- 01:33:39of and that is I am finding
- 01:33:43myself pursue my
- 01:33:45faith in a different way as an adult for
- 01:33:50in some ways for the first time so I was
- 01:33:51born Catholic 12 years of Catholic
- 01:33:53School Italian Catholic so it's really
- 01:33:55like the closest thing to a Jew besides
- 01:33:57maybe an Irish Catholic that you can get
- 01:33:59as a Christian oh like you know Rome
- 01:34:01sending my son to Rome next year to
- 01:34:02college so it's very ingrained it's
- 01:34:05comfortable but there's a intellectual
- 01:34:09or there's a there's something else
- 01:34:10happening that is drawing me to say all
- 01:34:14these abstractions about rights and laws
- 01:34:16and libertarian Do no harm that's all
- 01:34:18well and good but below the surface
- 01:34:20there's something else
- 01:34:21here that feels like it's withered
- 01:34:25M and it might even be the soft
- 01:34:28underbelly of liberalism that there's a
- 01:34:32there is a spot that's open to get
- 01:34:34stabbed by bad guys in the liberal order
- 01:34:38and I mean liberal in the broader sense
- 01:34:39not in like the American politics but
- 01:34:41liberalism as an openness tolerance you
- 01:34:44know the enlightenment project and I'm
- 01:34:47grappling with that I get the sense that
- 01:34:49you are too mhm and you you know talked
- 01:34:53about it in some of your other
- 01:34:54interviews yeah some people are starting
- 01:34:56to talk about like oh there's like
- 01:34:58a cultural Christian moment or something
- 01:35:01but I'd love to hear how you think
- 01:35:04about where Faith where the
- 01:35:08transcendental where the well why should
- 01:35:10people have individual dignity what
- 01:35:13what's our under if we are equal in some
- 01:35:15sense that's not Material because it's
- 01:35:18obvious that no one's equal materially
- 01:35:20right where's that coming from right how
- 01:35:22do you what are you grappling with on
- 01:35:23this yeah and are you seeing this too
- 01:35:26you do you feel like this is happening
- 01:35:27Beyond just us oh for sure 100% it is I
- 01:35:30mean I sort of start with I I think the
- 01:35:32really the cultural product that really
- 01:35:34captures this is flea bag are you a flea
- 01:35:36bag fan did you ever seen yeah I uh wait
- 01:35:39did I see that whole show the second
- 01:35:40it's I think it's a I think my wife
- 01:35:42watched the whole thing and I caught a
- 01:35:44couple epis Phoebe Bridgers I don't want
- 01:35:47to mix her up with Phoebe or Phoebe yeah
- 01:35:49there's another there's a singer right
- 01:35:50but she got tragically roped into being
- 01:35:53being party to the wrecking of Jones but
- 01:35:57she the flea bag is fantastic and the
- 01:35:59second season is is really about that
- 01:36:02it's about faith and about you know the
- 01:36:04importance of it and yeah because
- 01:36:06anybody that does anybody that has any
- 01:36:08kind of philosophical awareness or has
- 01:36:10done a good college course on this knows
- 01:36:14that you really can't derive an a from
- 01:36:17an is and people try like you can sit
- 01:36:20there and be like you know why yeah why
- 01:36:22why have laws against Thomas why not let
- 01:36:24people you kind of go well because it
- 01:36:26would be worse for you know people if we
- 01:36:28didn't well you're still making a moral
- 01:36:30judgment about you're still making a
- 01:36:31judgment that you that you don't want to
- 01:36:32do certain things and so there's a sort
- 01:36:34of there is a kind of bottom you know
- 01:36:36Faith there certainly you're using
- 01:36:38reason but I don't agree that science
- 01:36:40and reason tell us what's moral like
- 01:36:43these moral these moral decisions are
- 01:36:45much more complicated than that and they
- 01:36:47are based to some extent on tradition
- 01:36:49but also on experience so yeah I mean I
- 01:36:53think I think we're going to I just
- 01:36:54think it's a crisis of Faith Like that's
- 01:36:56ultimately what's driving all of I think
- 01:36:59a lot of these problems I mean when you
- 01:37:02are allowing predators
- 01:37:06to medicalize children who are autistic
- 01:37:10anxious or confused about their gender
- 01:37:13when you're allowing surgeons to engage
- 01:37:16in surgeries on minors in an effort to
- 01:37:19change their sex you're pretty far gone
- 01:37:22in in a way as a Society you're pretty
- 01:37:24far gone when you're when you're going
- 01:37:26out there enchanting black lives matter
- 01:37:28and how we support black lives and then
- 01:37:30you're you're demonizing the police
- 01:37:33resulting in the Police pulling back and
- 01:37:36emboldening homicides and seeing you
- 01:37:39know you know deaths of black people
- 01:37:41from homicides increase by at least
- 01:37:423,000 when you're letting black you know
- 01:37:45I discovered a young black girl on the
- 01:37:46street naked psychotic in a vulnerable
- 01:37:49situation on in San Francisco when
- 01:37:50you're allowing people to die in those
- 01:37:52ways when you're sending the
- 01:37:54firefighters out to just revive people
- 01:37:56for the 12th or 20th time from a drug
- 01:37:59overdose you're kind of far gone like as
- 01:38:01a society like I can see the really dark
- 01:38:05view of it is that we've gone really far
- 01:38:06gone and that and that
- 01:38:08liberalism didn't just you know not
- 01:38:11didn't just fail to prevent these awful
- 01:38:13things but it really enabled them and
- 01:38:15provided the
- 01:38:17justification you know for hey well
- 01:38:19people you know people are going to want
- 01:38:20to you let people do their own thing you
- 01:38:22know people want to do that
- 01:38:23you know to their genitals they want to
- 01:38:25they want to smoke Fentanyl and meth
- 01:38:27that's fine so
- 01:38:28liberalism you know it's indicted by it
- 01:38:31you know it's I think it's it has to
- 01:38:33deal with that and that's the that has
- 01:38:35been the conservative criticism of
- 01:38:37liberalism and comes right out of n
- 01:38:40right where he says if God is dead then
- 01:38:42everything is permitted doesn't say
- 01:38:45everything is possible you know it's not
- 01:38:46possible to change sex but everything is
- 01:38:48permitted and so we're allowed to do
- 01:38:50these absolutely awful gruesome
- 01:38:52experiments on vulnerable people on
- 01:38:55mentally ill people the people that are
- 01:38:57most are least likely to protect
- 01:38:59themselves and the people doing the
- 01:39:00experiments are liberals and
- 01:39:02progressives by their own definition
- 01:39:04it's a hugely damning indictment of
- 01:39:07liberalism the conservative remedy is to
- 01:39:10kind of go back to some religious basis
- 01:39:12of society I I don't even know what that
- 01:39:15would look like I mean obviously it
- 01:39:17hasn't worked there's been Christian
- 01:39:18conservatives that have made the case
- 01:39:20for decades but not everybody's
- 01:39:22Christian and Christians disagree with
- 01:39:25Christians and there's Jews and there's
- 01:39:26Hindus and there's atheists and so you
- 01:39:28got to find a way to make civilization
- 01:39:31work for all these different groups of
- 01:39:33people and so where I go to is just more
- 01:39:35like let's just start by being pro-human
- 01:39:38and recognizing that we are very special
- 01:39:41and that we don't have to you know
- 01:39:43suggest that we have the right to wipe
- 01:39:44out all animals or something like that
- 01:39:46but like humans are special and we're
- 01:39:48humans and we love ourselves and we love
- 01:39:50we love our families and we love each
- 01:39:51other if you're prum then you're pro-
- 01:39:54civilization if you're Pro civilization
- 01:39:57cuz that's how you protect human life is
- 01:39:59with civilization if you're Pro
- 01:40:01civilization then you're for Law and
- 01:40:03Order meritocracy cheap energy Equal
- 01:40:05justice and the law Free Speech free
- 01:40:08enterprise um and I think a few other
- 01:40:10things and that's a for me a practical
- 01:40:14gen xer plus agenda that you could
- 01:40:18actually get a majority of people in the
- 01:40:20Western World to support even in places
- 01:40:23like like California and San Francisco I
- 01:40:25had a conversation with Peter bean and
- 01:40:27we went back and forth on this a bit um
- 01:40:30and one of the things that it it I don't
- 01:40:32know if this unlocked an empathy
- 01:40:34for the woke
- 01:40:37alternative Dogma but it it occurred to
- 01:40:41me in talking to him that if you don't
- 01:40:45believe in a frankly in a soul in a in
- 01:40:50an ineffable immaterial equality
- 01:40:54that that underpins the dignity it's a
- 01:40:56it's a measuring stick that's outside of
- 01:40:59the material order
- 01:41:01right and if you're saying I am going to
- 01:41:04just try to observe the material order
- 01:41:07as it actually is you said how do you go
- 01:41:10from an is to an art yeah if you're just
- 01:41:12looking at the
- 01:41:13is we are
- 01:41:15tribal um yes there is a certain Zero
- 01:41:18Sum game battle in which the strong will
- 01:41:21win and if there is no moral yard stick
- 01:41:25to say that
- 01:41:27winning in the wrong way is is morally
- 01:41:30wrong right well then winning is just
- 01:41:34called Evolution it's the survival of
- 01:41:36the fittest it's the so it seems like
- 01:41:41the victimhood the woke view that we are
- 01:41:46the product of a kind of material
- 01:41:48tribalism that is that cannot be you
- 01:41:52can't abstract away from it it is what
- 01:41:54it is in the legal sense I I understand
- 01:41:56they they basically say no no judge can
- 01:41:58be impartial so throw that even as an
- 01:42:01ideal out the window ideals ideals are
- 01:42:04irrelevant it's this postmodern there is
- 01:42:07no real truth there's just the truth of
- 01:42:09the reality of the power dynamics right
- 01:42:12I mean that does seem like a a way to to
- 01:42:16understand the world if all you've got
- 01:42:18to go on is material observation if you
- 01:42:20are like looking at human existence like
- 01:42:22an alien species that the
- 01:42:25planet
- 01:42:27yes I was just thinking that the other
- 01:42:29day I was like it's so dehumanizing it
- 01:42:32is as though or like a god you know I
- 01:42:36mean so one idea is that people are
- 01:42:37actually swapping themselves in for gods
- 01:42:39and they're they're playing with human
- 01:42:41life I mean that's you know changing
- 01:42:43trying to change somebody's sex or you
- 01:42:46know trying to protect people from you
- 01:42:49know laws trying to have different laws
- 01:42:51for different groups of people I mean
- 01:42:53these are um this is a kind of it's a a
- 01:42:58loss of boundaries these are this is a
- 01:43:00pattern of civilizations when they're
- 01:43:02just breaking down and so the question
- 01:43:05is sort of is are we doomed are we
- 01:43:07resigned to that is are we doomed to the
- 01:43:08civilization breaking down or is there a
- 01:43:10better outcome I do I like to look at
- 01:43:13places like the
- 01:43:14Netherlands you go the Netherlands it's
- 01:43:16pretty functioning I mean they've got
- 01:43:18some internal conflicts and we talk
- 01:43:19about the farmers before but I mean
- 01:43:21there aren't open air drug scenes they
- 01:43:23did have that actually in the ' 880s and
- 01:43:25'90s they shut them down but it's uh you
- 01:43:28visit Amsterdam and you're kind of like
- 01:43:29why can't we have this you know why
- 01:43:31can't we I mean wealthy but without
- 01:43:34having lost you know their you know I
- 01:43:36asked him about the opio how come you
- 01:43:37didn't have an opioid epidemic because
- 01:43:40we just felt like it was okay for people
- 01:43:42to experience some pain I mean a very
- 01:43:45important part of that which was like we
- 01:43:47got oh well we don't want to have any we
- 01:43:49don't want you have any pain well I
- 01:43:50don't know you just said back surgery I
- 01:43:51think you're going to have a little bit
- 01:43:52of pain
- 01:43:54and then there's a risk of addiction so
- 01:43:55you're not going to over prescribe Med
- 01:43:57there was a kind of a core inner fiber
- 01:44:00there with the Dutch that they were the
- 01:44:03you know they were the richest one of
- 01:44:04the first civilizations in Europe after
- 01:44:06Spain and capitalism is born in Holland
- 01:44:08basically and then the Scottish
- 01:44:10Enlightenment you know adjacent to it
- 01:44:12and they were they were so rich that
- 01:44:14there were there's a famous book called
- 01:44:15the embarrassment of riches where they
- 01:44:17were so rich that it was embarrassing to
- 01:44:19the Dutch obviously they're now just a
- 01:44:21kind of you know not to be mean about
- 01:44:23but they're not a particularly relevant
- 01:44:25country in the world anymore you know
- 01:44:26they're not even Germany or France but
- 01:44:29yet things are working and so I do think
- 01:44:31there is a way I think like I mean now
- 01:44:34it's a little different for the United
- 01:44:35States because we are still the global
- 01:44:37hegemon we're still the greatest country
- 01:44:39in the world there's just no question
- 01:44:41that we're at the Center of Western
- 01:44:42Civilization so I do think yeah I mean
- 01:44:45hopefully we're in for a period of some
- 01:44:47political change but I think if it's not
- 01:44:49accompanied by the cultural changes that
- 01:44:51we're talking about the changes to
- 01:44:53parenting culture the changes to
- 01:44:55mentality and attitude and what gets
- 01:44:56taught in the schools then I don't think
- 01:44:58it'll
- 01:44:59matter I think that there's something
- 01:45:01interesting in in looking
- 01:45:04to the Dutch and I would also say to um
- 01:45:09Denmark and the Scandinavian countries
- 01:45:11and that um in my documentary The
- 01:45:14Pursuit with Arthur Brooks we actually
- 01:45:16went to Denmark and we talked to a bunch
- 01:45:18of folks and um because you know who
- 01:45:21were leaving the strollers outside the
- 01:45:22restaurant doing these things you know
- 01:45:24and the Danes actually do even they do a
- 01:45:27lot of stuff like that in their in in
- 01:45:29education it's very normal Finland which
- 01:45:32many progressives love to tout as this
- 01:45:35right one like that's what we need we
- 01:45:37need to pay teachers more it's like well
- 01:45:39a um yes they pay them more but your
- 01:45:42math teacher has a PHD in math and it's
- 01:45:45actually really really hard to do right
- 01:45:48so it isn't like oh you've got a degree
- 01:45:50in nonsense and and then you're
- 01:45:53protected by teachers unions that are
- 01:45:55basically like structurally corrupt it's
- 01:45:57like you there's there's this selective
- 01:46:00let's take from these
- 01:46:02things it's hard to
- 01:46:04escape that those are very genetically
- 01:46:09and culturally homogeneous
- 01:46:11societies and so the Huga and the yant
- 01:46:15LA the trust right yeah cuz half of your
- 01:46:19friends names are Sven so you trust Sven
- 01:46:22you trust the Sven you don't know
- 01:46:24because he probably is your cousin and I
- 01:46:26I don't mean that like they're they're
- 01:46:28like they literally are genetically way
- 01:46:29closer to each other right so they're
- 01:46:31kind of relying on an older deeper
- 01:46:34reptilian tribal loyalty solidarity
- 01:46:37thing yeah which means they do they have
- 01:46:41high degrees of trust they have lower
- 01:46:43amounts of like
- 01:46:45liability as a result they have less
- 01:46:48lawsuits there's like a bunch of other
- 01:46:50stuff that like they have lower
- 01:46:51transaction costs on things that we will
- 01:46:54never have the judicial system is more
- 01:46:56collaborative and less antagonistic
- 01:46:58between prosecutors and defendants the
- 01:47:00American system is different and I think
- 01:47:02that is very important to keep in mind
- 01:47:05and you know I think we're also able to
- 01:47:07handle the immigration and assimilation
- 01:47:09question much better than the Europeans
- 01:47:11are they're terrible at it's breaking I
- 01:47:13mean talk about the Dutch and you talk
- 01:47:15about what's happening politically there
- 01:47:17it's not exactly like they're all super
- 01:47:18stoked about what's going on in their
- 01:47:19country it's a huge huge crisis so we're
- 01:47:22much but I mean if you kind of go what
- 01:47:24do we what do we have here I mean look
- 01:47:25we're Continental size country two
- 01:47:29oceans on both sides zero chance of any
- 01:47:32real military you know threat abundant
- 01:47:35natural resources I mean just abundant
- 01:47:38and we have had a we have had a stoic a
- 01:47:41semi- stoic culture for a long time
- 01:47:43we've also had an you know we've had a
- 01:47:45an anti-racist act truly anti-racial
- 01:47:48non-rational assimilationist program and
- 01:47:52you know the woke left has been trying
- 01:47:54to attack it I mean I remember when they
- 01:47:56were they tried to get rid of the
- 01:47:58English only education which is known as
- 01:48:02teaching English to immigrants for a
- 01:48:04while they thought that somehow it would
- 01:48:05be better the kids didn't learn English
- 01:48:06they had to get rid of it so I I'm I'm B
- 01:48:10if I had to bet on something I would
- 01:48:12Bank on American
- 01:48:14pragmatism it's it's also the the the
- 01:48:18only philosophical tradition that we
- 01:48:20invented is pragmatism and it comes you
- 01:48:22know it's John Dewey and Pur and all
- 01:48:23these guys it's a very we're practical
- 01:48:26people we're affiliative you know
- 01:48:28voluntary associations type people we
- 01:48:31are bootstrap people I think at our core
- 01:48:33and we're just having to kind of we're
- 01:48:35going to have to schluff off this awful
- 01:48:38woke radical left dehumanizing overlay
- 01:48:42that's been put on top of us again I
- 01:48:45hope I think it'll happen to some extent
- 01:48:47politically but it's got to be matched
- 01:48:48by this cultural program to get back to
- 01:48:51the American creed which is
- 01:48:53yeah it's individual liberty it's like
- 01:48:55our best attribute it's free enterprise
- 01:48:57it's free speech you know there's some
- 01:49:00things you have to we have to work on
- 01:49:01repatriating some of our Industries
- 01:49:03improving the schools I mean you know I
- 01:49:06think for Mo you know for most of our
- 01:49:07adult lives we heard Democrats talk
- 01:49:09about improving schools that's all
- 01:49:12stopped I mean now it's 25 to 30% um
- 01:49:16rates of chronic absenteeism and and yes
- 01:49:19Co made it worse but it was going in the
- 01:49:20wrong direction before that student
- 01:49:22performance is going down on every
- 01:49:24category for every group so clearly it's
- 01:49:28not working and so there needs to be
- 01:49:30some significant cultural course
- 01:49:32correction there um for it to work
- 01:49:35because I think once you do get it to
- 01:49:36work yeah we're going to I'm sure you
- 01:49:38know Trump is elected we're going to end
- 01:49:39up expelling a fair number of migrants
- 01:49:42but we're going to keep a bunch of good
- 01:49:43ones too you know they're going to keep
- 01:49:44the ones that are on board with the
- 01:49:45American creed and I do think there's a
- 01:49:48chance for us to get back to growth you
- 01:49:50know that is ultimately what America has
- 01:49:52been able to do is this thing of a
- 01:49:54degrowth you know declining population
- 01:49:56as long as our domestic populations
- 01:49:58aren't going to be reproducing at
- 01:50:002.1 um we are going to need immigrants
- 01:50:02and so I think being able to to to
- 01:50:04answer that immigration challenge with
- 01:50:07those educational Solutions you know and
- 01:50:10other things is going to be really the
- 01:50:12key to our Rejuvenation I chose to not
- 01:50:15dive into one of the so many areas that
- 01:50:18I find so fascinating that you have
- 01:50:21worked on and to keep this conversation
- 01:50:24at at at meta themes cuz I and I
- 01:50:27encourage the viewers to to dig in to to
- 01:50:31your work along several Dimensions the
- 01:50:33wath files revealing
- 01:50:36what the I mean truly demonic activity
- 01:50:40on behalf of this trans transgender
- 01:50:43youth
- 01:50:45mutilation Dr mangay level Evil yeah I I
- 01:50:49won't mince words on say what do you
- 01:50:51really think though yeah I don't mece
- 01:50:52words on that I I I don't I will not
- 01:50:55yeah I will not abide by any of that I
- 01:50:57think I personally think that if you do
- 01:51:00that to a child as a doctor you should
- 01:51:02be put in jail we'd have to change the
- 01:51:04laws first yeah but yes but that would
- 01:51:06be my dad's doctor I said dad what do
- 01:51:08you think he's like oh yeah like wood
- 01:51:10chipper so yeah maybe I'm retrograde
- 01:51:14maybe that's not libertarian I'm sorry I
- 01:51:16don't care yeah um climate change uh
- 01:51:20you've done incredible work to bring
- 01:51:22sanity to that issue homelessness and
- 01:51:26journalism The Pursuit Of
- 01:51:29Truth as you look at this as you you now
- 01:51:32you're now you're embarking on I think a
- 01:51:35meta question like what where do we go
- 01:51:37as Western Civilization yeah um keeping
- 01:51:41it a little smaller how do you see and
- 01:51:43this is my sort of final
- 01:51:45question how do you see your role in the
- 01:51:48American story you talking about
- 01:51:49American pragmatism MH what do you
- 01:51:53want
- 01:51:54to do on behalf of this country and the
- 01:51:58best of what it
- 01:51:59is I want to be I want to continue to be
- 01:52:01of service I go back and forth between
- 01:52:05what that is and it's basically I'm a
- 01:52:08journalist I mean I've been doing
- 01:52:09journalism since I was 15 so that's 38
- 01:52:12years I've also been I've been an
- 01:52:15activist and and you know my wife is all
- 01:52:18I'm always like I get frustrated with
- 01:52:21both sometimes I'm I'm like I'm not
- 01:52:22going to do any more of the advocacy cuz
- 01:52:25it's just
- 01:52:26so it's just so um if you're a
- 01:52:28journalist it's it's easy in a sense
- 01:52:31that you write about something but
- 01:52:32you're not responsible but then it's the
- 01:52:35man in the arena problem you know then
- 01:52:37there's in my in my head there's Teddy
- 01:52:39Roosevelt being like it's any man can be
- 01:52:42a Critic it's the person in the
- 01:52:44arena so yeah I mean I'm always I'm
- 01:52:47always looking at that and obviously I
- 01:52:48care about California and you know there
- 01:52:50will be a moment where we have to figure
- 01:52:51out if we're going to run again for
- 01:52:52governor it's a genuinely difficult
- 01:52:55decision because I think that the
- 01:52:57quality of my life and I would just say
- 01:52:59my Baseline happiness is happier as a
- 01:53:01journalist you know it really is but
- 01:53:04that frustration at how badly things are
- 01:53:09being run and my sense in which it could
- 01:53:11be done better and my I've had a just a
- 01:53:13sense always that that was the right job
- 01:53:15for me and that that was I was like that
- 01:53:18like I know how to do that job like if I
- 01:53:20could do that job I could solve a bunch
- 01:53:23of these I make progress at least on
- 01:53:25solving a bunch of these problems but
- 01:53:27yeah it's difficult because it's also
- 01:53:28like you have a nice life like why would
- 01:53:29you want to go and run for political
- 01:53:33office I'm going to ask a bonus question
- 01:53:36um which
- 01:53:38is how in the world could America
- 01:53:40possibly end up with Gavin Nome as the
- 01:53:44president there's no sense that his
- 01:53:47governance could be deemed successful in
- 01:53:50my eyes and this is not about partisans
- 01:53:52ship I don't really care about that but
- 01:53:54San Francisco got materially worse under
- 01:53:57his mayorship and he has presided over a
- 01:54:01California that is bleeding population
- 01:54:04which of all the things to measure at
- 01:54:06the most basic level if people are
- 01:54:07voting with your feet their feet to
- 01:54:08leave your state you are
- 01:54:10failing how can that is it just cuz he's
- 01:54:13like a slick talking split tongue Prince
- 01:54:17of Lies like how is this possible I mean
- 01:54:19in person he's physically impressed mive
- 01:54:22I mean when you I've met him in person I
- 01:54:24went up to him and it was like wow
- 01:54:26you're really like taller and bigger and
- 01:54:28you know it's like that uh you're like
- 01:54:30wow and you're really beautiful and so
- 01:54:32you're kind of like all right I can see
- 01:54:33he's one of those trickster Greek gods
- 01:54:35that's really like a bastard I mean he's
- 01:54:38like I mean he's like better looking
- 01:54:40than like most Hollywood actors I mean
- 01:54:42he's really um he's a great speaker his
- 01:54:45voice is got that little gravel to it
- 01:54:48he's an incredible fundraiser he's very
- 01:54:51discipl about his
- 01:54:53Communications you know I mean it's not
- 01:54:55a um I mean I would like to believe that
- 01:54:59his record would make it impossible for
- 01:55:00him to become president and I've I
- 01:55:02criticize him constantly on Twitter so
- 01:55:05but it's like yeah I mean like people
- 01:55:06like you know Matt by Washington Post uh
- 01:55:10Bill Maher Nelly BS these are these are
- 01:55:12important political journalists they all
- 01:55:15see Gavin as a major potential Contender
- 01:55:19he would have to just be like like hey
- 01:55:22all that stuff in California that's just
- 01:55:24in the past and it's going to be
- 01:55:26different now and I think he would need
- 01:55:27to also really focus on abortion in a
- 01:55:31way that I think he would bring a lot of
- 01:55:33discipline and focus to abortion I think
- 01:55:36the Republicans have done a really good
- 01:55:39job at trying to take abortion off the
- 01:55:41table Trump has done like he sometimes
- 01:55:44he been criticized as not disciplined
- 01:55:46but if you had seen what they've been
- 01:55:47doing in the way that he talks about it
- 01:55:50and how they were really aggressive Rive
- 01:55:52and not letting that IVF uh the anti-f
- 01:55:56stuff coming from some of the Backwater
- 01:55:58parts of Republican land get in the way
- 01:56:01of them but they hey I'm a Catholic here
- 01:56:03sorry but there's been you know that
- 01:56:05stuff that's really unpopular and that
- 01:56:07could hurt them seriously you know like
- 01:56:09that would I would see Gavin being able
- 01:56:10to focus everybody on that for a lot
- 01:56:12more even if the Republicans are like
- 01:56:14look we love abortion you know whatever
- 01:56:15nobody believes that you know and and
- 01:56:18and nobody trusts Trump so you know and
- 01:56:21then so they you know if you kind of
- 01:56:22look at a Gavin versus a
- 01:56:24trump I think that is tougher for Trump
- 01:56:27than a certainly than a Biden or a comma
- 01:56:29I mean kamla can't speak I mean she just
- 01:56:31struggles to say anything and I think if
- 01:56:34you're in a debate kind of context and
- 01:56:36the Press context I think it be
- 01:56:37increasingly difficult so yeah
- 01:56:39unfortunately he's the kind of character
- 01:56:41now you know it's like classic um you
- 01:56:44know weak men make bad times bad times
- 01:56:46make strong men strong men make good
- 01:56:47times so I think we're you know he's a
- 01:56:50weak guy that creat ated really bad
- 01:56:53times and so the question is is the
- 01:56:55moment are we still in a moment that is
- 01:56:57favorable to him or do people sense that
- 01:56:59we're entering into a a more difficult
- 01:57:02time that requires a stronger leader if
- 01:57:05you decide to take on the governorship
- 01:57:08once again I wish you godp speed sir
- 01:57:11thank you very much thanks for being on
- 01:57:13Dad Saves America thanks for having me
- 01:57:15John good to be with you
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