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it's not an analogy it's literally
00:00:01
correct okay so it's struggling I'm
00:00:04
struggling with software is basically if
00:00:06
you think what software is if you are
00:00:08
interacting with computers it is a
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disembodied caal pattern right it's very
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much a
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[Music]
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spirit gra you're back welcome to how
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like gets in Festival thanks um so
00:00:23
you're currently comperative scientist
00:00:25
at liquid AI that correct yes I have uh
00:00:29
liquid AI with strategy oh and you're
00:00:31
setting up a Consciousness Research
00:00:33
Institute yeah I'm interested in closing
00:00:36
the Gap but what one we currently
00:00:38
understand in machine learning and
00:00:39
artificial intelligence and how minds
00:00:41
work and how to understand get how to
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get closer to the vein which our mind
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works I mean part of me does doesn't
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like when people ask people to define
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consciousness because part of it feels
00:00:53
like the closest thing to us but how are
00:00:55
you defining
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Consciousness experientially when I
00:00:58
pointed it I think there two aspects
00:01:01
that fall out and one is it's a second
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order perception that B it's not just
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that there's content but that I'm aware
00:01:08
that there is content the second order
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perception is important it's not
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metacognition because it's perceptual
00:01:14
it's more immediate than the reflexive
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cognition and the other aspect is that
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Consciousness is always happening now it
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seems to create this bubble of nness
00:01:22
that we inhabit and they suspect that
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Consciousness is basically an operator
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that our mind is discovering that
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increases coherence
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and by increasing coherence by making
00:01:32
more statements models and so on
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simultaneously True by creating a
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consensus between all the different
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context of our working memory we create
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an area in the mind that is without
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contradictions and we can have
00:01:44
contradictions in our working memory and
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so on but we can never have a perception
00:01:48
that contradicts itself and then so
00:01:51
Consciousness seems to be this principle
00:01:52
and I suspect that it's a learning
00:01:54
algorithm it's a learning algorithm that
00:01:56
is not based on minimizing a prediction
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error but on maximizing coherence on
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maximizing this area in which we don't
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have contradictions in which we can
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predict and explain things tricks of the
00:02:05
eye illusions do they not kind of count
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as contradictions no I think that uh
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When We are perceiving the world we have
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a model that is not probabilistic but
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possibilistic right you should be able
00:02:17
to recognize a tiger gun going after you
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even if tigers at the festival like this
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are very improbable but because they're
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are physically possible and because they
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fit in our perception we should be able
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to recognize them this makes the search
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space of possible representations
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extremely large so for our mind to
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converge onto something that is
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conformant with what we perceive it
00:02:37
learns bias it it learns a way to
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interpret the um what we are seeing in a
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probabilistic fashion first to get to
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the right explanation and these
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probabilistic biases that we have on top
00:02:50
of our perception shift us into thinking
00:02:52
that an angle is a right angle we
00:02:54
because we've seen so many right angles
00:02:56
um that um certain objects are in front
00:02:59
of other objects where they might not be
00:03:01
and on average uh this is correct and
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basic you converge much much faster but
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in edge cases it leads to wrong
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interpretations and most of the optical
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illusions that we perceive are result of
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that that basically our perceptual
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system is biased towards certain
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perceptions that eventually we have to
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remedy and sometimes it's difficult to
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find a solution that's like a puzzle and
00:03:21
yet when we look at this we will always
00:03:22
see that there are shapes and so on we
00:03:24
see that how these shapes are relating
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every pixel that we see basically can be
00:03:28
attributed to one object and all the
00:03:30
objects can be attributed to being part
00:03:32
of a scene that we inhabit okay so
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Consciousness is trying to make the
00:03:37
world coherent uh it's always now and
00:03:40
it's without contradictions it also has
00:03:41
a self reflexivity to it you said um do
00:03:44
animals have that self reflexivity
00:03:46
because self-consciousness seems uh well
00:03:48
some people argue unique to humans but
00:03:50
to animals I think there this little bit
00:03:52
of human vanity to think that
00:03:53
Consciousness is some super complicated
00:03:55
in the Pinnacle of mental development
00:03:57
but we observe that not only no priz
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winners have Consciousness after they
00:04:02
reach their Peak but it the infants have
00:04:04
it already and they become conscious
00:04:06
before they can do anything else and if
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you don't gain we gain gain
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Consciousness at the beginning of our
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life you remain vegetables it's so it
00:04:14
seems to be a prerequisite for mental
00:04:15
development not the Pinnacle of it and
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uh if Consciousness is so simple that
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infants can have it then uh it's
00:04:23
ridiculous to say that cats don't have
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it right and also when you are
00:04:26
interacting with a cat or with a dog or
00:04:28
with a bird or a mouse you notice that
00:04:30
they are at some level aware of their
00:04:32
awareness okay so you think animals are
00:04:34
aware that they're aware I think it's
00:04:36
almost ridiculous to say that they're
00:04:38
not the more interesting question is are
00:04:40
insects conscious right so basically is
00:04:43
this if Consciousness is a training
00:04:44
algorithm that is the simple training
00:04:46
algorithm that nature has discovered for
00:04:47
a self organizing system like our
00:04:49
nervous system because we don't see any
00:04:51
humans that has running anything simpler
00:04:53
than Consciousness to learn right it
00:04:54
seems to be the simple thing that nature
00:04:56
came up with and it is this prerequisite
00:04:58
for learning maybe it also works on
00:05:00
insects I don't know that but um I um
00:05:03
I'm reluctant to say it's clearly not
00:05:05
are you a physicalist without
00:05:06
Consciousness then yeah I think that
00:05:08
every theory that we are making about
00:05:11
reality has to account for the fact that
00:05:13
the experiment of physicists work the
00:05:15
standard model seems to be correct to
00:05:16
many decimal digits and even though it's
00:05:18
incomplete it describes in the energy
00:05:20
regime that we live in all the
00:05:22
information conservation so there
00:05:23
doesn't seem to be any kind of hidden
00:05:25
back channel to influence our reality
00:05:27
without disproving a majority of uh the
00:05:30
scientific experiments that physicists
00:05:32
have done in the last 100 years and
00:05:34
that's why I suspect that every theory
00:05:36
that tries to explain Consciousness has
00:05:38
to account for the fact that uh the
00:05:40
theories of physicist seem to be largely
00:05:41
correct correct by what measure surely
00:05:44
we haven't kind of reached the end of
00:05:45
physics so surely our physics is still
00:05:47
wrong in some way and so our current
00:05:49
phys physical theories are not true um
00:05:52
so I mean how how does that if something
00:05:54
wants to influence the physical world
00:05:56
world it needs to exert some kind of
00:05:58
effect on the physical world does the
00:06:00
Mind do that does Consciousness do it
00:06:02
does that but it doesn't do this by
00:06:03
non-physical means I think that the mind
00:06:06
is a pattern in the physical reality
00:06:08
it's a caal pattern that is self-
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reinforcing and we we know uh these
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causal patterns in other contexts we
00:06:15
call them software the software is
00:06:17
disembodied but it's still interacting
00:06:20
with physics and there are large parts
00:06:22
of the physical world that we cannot
00:06:23
explain if you do not assume the
00:06:25
existence of software if you look at
00:06:27
your phone for instance the software
00:06:29
that is running on it doesn't really
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care about how many transistors are
00:06:32
there and how much memory you have in
00:06:33
there uh but uh it is implemented on the
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activation states of the transistors and
00:06:39
so there's this interaction between
00:06:40
hardware and software where the hardware
00:06:41
is providing the mechanism and the
00:06:43
software is the pattern that actually
00:06:44
matters the actual invariance that they
00:06:46
care about that software exists in I
00:06:49
mean I'm not a computer scientist exists
00:06:51
in data centers surely it's not still
00:06:54
physical and in and Consciousness is
00:06:56
consciousness physical I I can't it's
00:06:58
physical that's software is but the
00:07:00
Consciousness that we have there's a big
00:07:02
difference between the software that we
00:07:03
are writing on computers it's self
00:07:05
organizing it needs to be able to
00:07:07
convince the cells to run it and uh
00:07:10
these cells are little um the neurons in
00:07:12
your brain little single- cell animals
00:07:14
that try to survive and that serve their
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own interests and if you want to run on
00:07:18
them you need to convince them to run
00:07:21
you so they you need to provide some
00:07:22
benefit and you are some software that
00:07:24
is basically possessing groups of
00:07:26
neurons and uh you do this by training
00:07:29
the neurons to run you so there needs to
00:07:31
be some kind of seat that enables this
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kind of entraining of yourself something
00:07:35
that is able to colonize the brain turns
00:07:37
it into a mind and inside of that mind
00:07:39
which is like a protocol layer generate
00:07:41
a game engine that is giving you a
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simulation of a physical Universe in
00:07:45
which you have sounds colors people's
00:07:46
emotions the interactions a model of
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yourself and at some point this
00:07:50
conscious perspective is relocating into
00:07:52
this Nexus of the personal self and you
00:07:54
think of yourself as a human being you
00:07:56
use ey to refer to yourself and this
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conscious
00:08:00
uh creator of your mental contents that
00:08:02
is dreaming you thinks that it's no
00:08:04
longer the dreamer but it's a person
00:08:05
inside of that dream and this is our
00:08:07
normal everyday experience so the brain
00:08:09
is Hardware Consciousness is software I
00:08:12
I'm struggling with the analogy somewhat
00:08:14
um of it's not an analogy it's literally
00:08:16
correct okay so it's software struggling
00:08:18
I'm struggling with the software but
00:08:20
software is basically if you think what
00:08:21
software is if you are interacting with
00:08:23
computers it is a disembodied Cal
00:08:26
pattern right it's very much a spirit
00:08:28
only the software that the building is
00:08:30
not self-organizing it's constructed by
00:08:31
humans and it works because we force the
00:08:33
hardware to enact it we make it so
00:08:35
deterministic that the hardware has no
00:08:37
choice but yourselves at some level have
00:08:39
a choice in the same way as the group of
00:08:41
people has a choice to R religion or not
00:08:43
and so you need to convince all the
00:08:45
individuals to believe in the shared
00:08:47
Spirit uh or of an organization of a
00:08:49
nation state of a family of a
00:08:51
relationship or of a religion and in the
00:08:54
same way you need to convince yourselves
00:08:56
to believe in you is software I'm still
00:08:58
struggling is software physical I can't
00:09:01
see your Consciousness right now um
00:09:03
software a pattern patterns again feel
00:09:05
physical uh to me and this seems to be
00:09:08
something completely non-physical
00:09:10
non-observable an example that you might
00:09:12
be more familiar with let's take money
00:09:14
right money is clearly not physical and
00:09:16
money on the other hand is real it's
00:09:18
implemented in the world there are L RAR
00:09:20
parts of the world that make no sense if
00:09:21
you do not assume the existence of money
00:09:24
because many others do it too and the
00:09:25
money is not just an imagination that
00:09:27
you're having but there are Bank notes
00:09:29
which are P of paper with ink on them
00:09:31
but you don't care really about the
00:09:32
fibers of the paper you don't care about
00:09:34
the type of ink and so on there are bank
00:09:36
accounts that are had in computers that
00:09:37
hold all these numbers and so money is a
00:09:39
causal pattern it's a software that we
00:09:41
have implemented that runs on part of
00:09:43
the world and provides some of its
00:09:44
causal structure and I think that
00:09:46
software is all in this category it's
00:09:48
basically um law like structure that
00:09:50
only emerges through course graining
00:09:52
when you look at the world at a certain
00:09:54
level of abstraction when you project it
00:09:55
into some conceptual pattern but these
00:09:58
conceptual patterns eles can be causal
00:10:00
right your mind doesn't care about an
00:10:02
individual neuron dies it can recruit a
00:10:04
new neuron and train it to do the same
00:10:05
function I'm hearing that partly that
00:10:08
Consciousness is an abstraction or part
00:10:11
of abstraction and part of me wants to
00:10:13
say that Consciousness is the most real
00:10:15
thing it doesn't doesn't feel like an
00:10:16
abstraction and Mathematics feels like
00:10:18
the abstraction but Consciousness is the
00:10:20
only thing that can create feeling right
00:10:21
physics cannot you cannot be conscious
00:10:23
in the physical Universe the physical
00:10:25
universe is some VI mathematical object
00:10:27
that is currently described by quantum
00:10:29
mechanics and so on and it doesn't feel
00:10:31
like anything the physics as it's being
00:10:33
described is not this world with stuff
00:10:35
in space that you can touch that is a
00:10:37
simulation in your mind that is your
00:10:39
brain produces to explain Sensi data
00:10:42
physics is a parent universe that nobody
00:10:44
has ever visited and that we are making
00:10:46
Arcane theories about right it's not the
00:10:48
real world in a sense the real world is
00:10:50
the one that we experience but the sense
00:10:52
of realness is a TR and it's a trance
00:10:54
that you can break you can test this you
00:10:56
can deconstruct your qualia you can
00:10:58
notice that they're just representing
00:10:59
you can get to a state where you realize
00:11:01
that your personal self is just a
00:11:03
representation that you can deconstruct
00:11:04
and no longer identified with the
00:11:06
mystical experience I would call that
00:11:08
personally yeah yeah sometimes I don't
00:11:10
know what the mystical experience is
00:11:12
because the boundaries of this term are
00:11:14
very unclear William James kind of no
00:11:16
ethic experience loss of the self um
00:11:19
kind of Beyond contradictions as you
00:11:22
were saying before great white light
00:11:24
that type of thing that those type of
00:11:25
phenomena that sounds like what you're
00:11:27
was talking about deconstructing
00:11:30
but uh I'm a computer scientist and so
00:11:32
these terms do not mean very much to me
00:11:34
because if I I only understand what I
00:11:36
can Implement and this points to a large
00:11:39
problem in philosophy there are two
00:11:41
types of languages in a way the
00:11:43
mathematical languages which come from
00:11:44
the ground up and where every single
00:11:47
token every word uh every symbol that
00:11:49
you're defining has a clear meaning and
00:11:51
you try to build out these meanings from
00:11:52
the ground app so you can determine
00:11:54
what's Pro and false and in philosophy
00:11:56
you try to talk about our exens reality
00:11:59
and the world that we are in and it's
00:12:01
very difficult for those two areas to
00:12:03
meet the mathematical languages are so
00:12:05
simple that they cannot actually talk
00:12:06
about the real world if you want to use
00:12:08
mathematics to talk about the real world
00:12:09
you have to simplify the world so much
00:12:11
that it fits into these mathematical
00:12:13
abstractions on the other hand it's very
00:12:15
difficult to say true things in
00:12:16
philosophy because it's very hard to
00:12:18
Define your terms so well that they
00:12:20
actually refer to meaningful structure
00:12:22
that pans out and to me this idea of
00:12:25
making philosophy and Mathematics meet
00:12:27
that you can basically mathematize your
00:12:29
philosophical idea requires that we are
00:12:31
mathematizing this intermediator the
00:12:33
human mind right so we basically need to
00:12:35
mathematize human mind we need to turn
00:12:37
it into a structure we fully know what
00:12:39
operations it performs to do philosophy
00:12:41
so these terms can at some point meet
00:12:44
and I think that the human mind itself
00:12:45
is limited in our ability to understand
00:12:47
because it's quite mushy right we have
00:12:49
this vague reference and they are
00:12:51
grounded in perceptual constructs that
00:12:53
we largely only know as a pattern
00:12:55
matching and not as a deep understanding
00:12:58
so I a lot of discussions with
00:13:00
philosophers are frustrating who say
00:13:02
machines cannot understand something and
00:13:04
then you ask them what understanding is
00:13:05
and they don't understand what
00:13:07
understanding is they just have this
00:13:08
very weird pattern matching and this
00:13:10
pattern matching is not good enough to
00:13:11
tell them if the machines understand
00:13:13
something or don't I mean I'm struggling
00:13:15
with the uh mathematization of
00:13:17
Consciousness um because it seems to me
00:13:19
that no number of zeros and ones that
00:13:20
you put together will ever no equation
00:13:23
will spit out Consciousness on the other
00:13:24
end and if it does how would you know
00:13:26
that uh it's not necessarily about zeros
00:13:29
and ones it's about um finding a
00:13:32
representation in uh in which you can
00:13:34
describe arbitrary systems and um the
00:13:37
premise of computer science in a way
00:13:39
this also experimentally quite well
00:13:42
validated is that we can describe any
00:13:44
function using State Transitions and we
00:13:46
can describe all these State transitions
00:13:49
um using computational operators so
00:13:51
basically looking at discernable
00:13:53
differences and there's a finite
00:13:55
resolution to all the discernable
00:13:56
differences for them to matter and we
00:13:58
can use these trans positions between
00:14:00
sets of discernable differences to
00:14:01
describe arbitrary behavior and if you
00:14:04
agree that Consciousness is a behavior
00:14:05
of some kind then it follows that be
00:14:07
able to describe it in such languages I
00:14:09
definit think I agree with that uh the
00:14:11
Consciousness is a behavior of some kind
00:14:13
what do you think it is I think it's um
00:14:15
I think it's awareness as you said um
00:14:18
and I think it's it's my awareness from
00:14:20
the inside I describe it it's what it's
00:14:23
like to be me yes and so my answer to
00:14:26
this is um you do not actually exist you
00:14:29
exist as if right you don't exist in
00:14:30
physics the neurons themselves don't
00:14:32
feel anything the brain doesn't feel
00:14:34
anything because they physical
00:14:35
mechanisms but for all these neurons and
00:14:37
cells in your body it would be super
00:14:39
useful to know what it would be like to
00:14:41
be an organism to be a person in a
00:14:42
social environment to be somebody who is
00:14:44
hungry who is in love who cares about
00:14:46
things who experiences things in real
00:14:48
time and because they don't have that
00:14:51
they make a simulation of what that
00:14:52
would be like and that simulation the
00:14:54
output of that simulation is being used
00:14:56
to drive the organism and you are that
00:14:58
simulation you exist as if you are a
00:15:00
simulated being you are existing only in
00:15:02
the dream not in physics and this is a
00:15:05
big confusion because we think that this
00:15:07
is physics right but it's also it's
00:15:09
another aspect of the dream and so
00:15:11
you're part of that dream of a world
00:15:13
with a person inside and that's I think
00:15:15
what makes it so confusing but I think
00:15:17
we are as real as a character in a novel
00:15:19
and we have these emotions and feelings
00:15:21
and awareness because the author of the
00:15:22
novel our brain a mechanism writes it
00:15:25
into the story I mean I I would agree
00:15:27
that the self is an illusion the self is
00:15:29
not an object but I think Consciousness
00:15:31
uh is not an illusion Consciousness is
00:15:33
the uh most certainty we have kind of
00:15:35
returning to dayap I mean I think
00:15:37
ontology is IND is impossible and if
00:15:40
you're if you kind of kind of trying to
00:15:42
reach through the world to see what it's
00:15:43
like it's a dream but I mean I'm
00:15:46
wondering how how you therefore know
00:15:48
it's a dream if you're part of the dream
00:15:50
I think often when people say illusion
00:15:52
what they mean is a construction and uh
00:15:54
so I'm personally also completely agree
00:15:57
with Keith Frankish uh ter techology in
00:15:59
illusionism but um because I think it's
00:16:02
a construct Consciousness and it's
00:16:04
partially it's simulated which means you
00:16:06
have uh Cal structure that is modeling a
00:16:09
domain on a different Cal substrate in
00:16:11
the similar way as a computer game is
00:16:13
giving you a model of what it would be
00:16:14
like to shoot a gun in the real world
00:16:16
but it's not doing this by actually
00:16:17
moving Elementary particles around or
00:16:19
simulations of the elementary particles
00:16:21
but it's doing a high level simulation
00:16:23
it allows you to constantly interact
00:16:24
with the game in a similar way as you
00:16:26
would do with the real world simum is
00:16:28
more like a a movie right it produces a
00:16:30
series of the observables but there is
00:16:32
no way for you to interact with the
00:16:33
movie because it doesn't actually have a
00:16:34
caal structure and I suspect that our
00:16:37
mental contents our experience of being
00:16:39
Consciousness conscious is partially an
00:16:42
simulation and partially a
00:16:44
simulacron what you mean by S it just
00:16:46
means it produces a series of
00:16:47
observables that give you the uh
00:16:49
impression that something happened in a
00:16:50
particular way and that it was a cause a
00:16:52
mechanism that you're getting but it's
00:16:54
not I can buy that maybe Free Will is an
00:16:56
illusion I'm I'm wondering about this
00:16:59
that is free will is actually it was
00:17:01
never a physical thing that is the
00:17:03
confusion Free Will is psychological
00:17:05
phenomenon and it's will is the
00:17:08
psychological representation of a
00:17:10
commitment of your cognitive
00:17:12
architecture to perform a certain thing
00:17:14
and uh Free Will is the representation
00:17:16
that you're making a decision for the
00:17:17
first time which means you at the edge
00:17:19
of uncertainty you cannot predict your
00:17:21
own decision and uh it's a relative
00:17:23
thing it really depends on that factor
00:17:25
imagine you're looking at your child and
00:17:27
you know exactly what the child is going
00:17:28
to to do but the child doesn't know it
00:17:30
yet and so from your perspective the
00:17:32
child doesn't have Free Will from its
00:17:33
own it does or you're a stage musician
00:17:35
you get people on stage you've done this
00:17:37
trick few hundred times you know exactly
00:17:39
what they're going to do for them it's
00:17:40
mindblowing that you were able to
00:17:42
predict that and so from your
00:17:43
perspective they don't have Free Will
00:17:45
from their perspective they're making
00:17:46
the decision for the first time and they
00:17:47
do have free will and so free will is
00:17:49
that representation and that it's an
00:17:51
important representation to have and
00:17:53
it's a really important psychological
00:17:55
phenomenon behalf but a lot of confusion
00:17:57
in philosophy is caused by the inability
00:18:00
to distinguish psychological phenomena
00:18:02
from physical or ontological ones
00:18:04
Consciousness is psychological phenomena
00:18:06
not that physical one I'm wondering
00:18:07
about the epistemological versus the
00:18:09
anthological because from from my point
00:18:12
of view I think Consciousness is the
00:18:14
fundamental thing bya which we know
00:18:16
everything we don't we don't know
00:18:17
anything about uh maths or computer
00:18:20
programs uh when we're asleep uh so
00:18:24
Consciousness any knowledge requires
00:18:25
Consciousness and so it feels like
00:18:27
that's the epistemological St starting
00:18:29
point for ontology to take place but it
00:18:31
sounds like you you are arguing that the
00:18:33
maps and the computer code is the stting
00:18:36
point yes uh but we we have to get there
00:18:38
because uh in order to discover these
00:18:41
languages we have to think about the uh
00:18:43
nature of representation and that's
00:18:45
itself a mathematical problem when we
00:18:47
are thinking something when we observing
00:18:49
something when we are reasoning when we
00:18:51
interacting with each other we always
00:18:52
have to use representations which are
00:18:54
caal patterns that allow us to direct
00:18:56
behavior and we can mathematically
00:18:59
uh infer the limits of representations
00:19:02
and the ways in which representations
00:19:03
are working which I think are is the
00:19:05
greatest philosophical Pro that be made
00:19:07
in the last century and uh Consciousness
00:19:10
itself is not a certainty
00:19:12
epistemologically it's the impression
00:19:13
that something is going on but you don't
00:19:15
know what it is and then you check it
00:19:17
you often remember having been in
00:19:19
conscious states that are actually
00:19:20
impossible to have been in right so you
00:19:22
realize that your memories of the
00:19:24
conscious states that you have been in
00:19:25
are constructs that that can be wrong
00:19:28
that there are actually types of
00:19:29
representations and of course the only
00:19:32
way in which you experience something as
00:19:34
happening in which you relate to it as
00:19:36
meaningful is by having this reflexive
00:19:38
mechanism but the question is not so
00:19:40
much how can I make this fundamental
00:19:42
because how can it be fundamental how
00:19:44
can it emerge by itself but what are the
00:19:46
conditions for such representation such
00:19:48
Behavior such death report such
00:19:50
experiences to emerge in a physical
00:19:52
universe or any kind of mathematical
00:19:54
hypothetical universe that has any kind
00:19:55
of regularity in there your back
00:19:58
pleasure to meet you Conn and um thank
00:20:01
you for coming to H in Festival thank
00:20:03
you
00:20:08
[Music]
