00:00:04
Shoshana Ungerleider: Hi, Ira.
Ira Bedzow: Nice to see you.
00:00:07
SU: Ira is a professor,
an ethicist, and a rabbi.
00:00:11
And he's really all about helping
people and organizations
00:00:15
navigate ethical challenges
and turn their values into action.
00:00:20
So, Ira, the bio on the TED website,
it says "ethicist."
00:00:23
So how do you describe yourself?
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IB: First off, Shoshana, thank you,
00:00:27
that's a great question to start with.
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I would say whenever people
hear that I'm an ethicist,
00:00:34
the first thing that they think
is "Well, I don't need that guy."
00:00:39
Either "I'm a good person, so I don't need
someone to tell me what to do,"
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or "They don't know me,
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so I don't want someone to come
and impose their thoughts, their beliefs,
00:00:50
their values onto me."
00:00:52
So usually, I don't get any work
when people think that.
00:00:56
What I like to say
that I do, as an ethicist,
00:00:59
is I try help people think more creatively
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and make decisions
based on who they want to be
00:01:05
and what they care about.
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For me, it's not simply just a matter
of "is this act good or bad?"
00:01:11
or "is this act right or wrong."
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It's "Are you making the decisions
that speak to the goals that you have?"
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“Are your goals worth having,
the values that you embody,
00:01:22
in terms of what you care about,
00:01:23
and the applicability
or the strategic implementation
00:01:28
that you could truly achieve?"
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So in the professional realm,
that looks like organizational ethics,
00:01:34
professional identity formation,
values-driven leadership.
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In the personal realm,
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it's about developing habits
for behavior change.
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SU: So we're going
to get into a lot of that.
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But you're helping people do something
that feels really elusive
00:01:47
and can be intimidating.
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Can you start by sharing
one or maybe two strategies
00:01:53
that people can use
to help them get more clarity
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on what their purpose is?
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IB: Great. So first, I think we need
to define our terms on purpose.
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Purpose is a really scary word,
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and I think that when we talk
about purpose,
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oftentimes, people think
that there's one thing in life
00:02:08
that the universe wants them to do,
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and if they don't find it,
then they haven't succeeded.
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That scares me, in the way
of making people think that, like,
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there's only one shot,
and if you don't hit that shot,
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then your life doesn't have the meaning
that it's supposed to have.
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And it's not only not true,
but it's unhelpful.
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When I think of purpose,
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I think about it as a self-defined,
long-term intention
00:02:33
that is meaningful to you
and impactful for your world.
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I think if you have
that type of intention,
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it'll guide your decisions,
it'll guide your behavior,
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it'll guide your goals,
it'll provide you a sense of direction,
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and it'll provide that sense
of meaningfulness,
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as opposed to just thinking about,
like, the meaning of life.
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So, strategies.
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So when I think about how to achieve
this type of purpose --
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and truth be told,
when you know it's an intention,
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it's like, what you're interested in,
what you care about,
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what you want to do --
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I start asking myself
a number of questions.
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So the first question I'll say
00:03:08
is "What do I want
to do in this situation?"
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The second question I'll ask
is "Do I want to want what I want?"
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Now, that sounds nuts.
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You're like, "I don't understand."
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Does that mean, like,
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OK, you just really, really want it
as opposed to want it?
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So I will give you an example.
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Let's say you and I
were going out for dinner,
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and there's this dessert cart,
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and there is cheesecake
on the dessert cart.
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Now I want that cheesecake.
I think it's delicious.
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And it's, like, just right there for me.
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But I also know that I'm incredibly
lactose-intolerant.
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(Laughter)
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So the question I'm asking myself
is "Do I want the cheesecake,
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but I'm going to resist it?
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Or do I want to not want that cheesecake,
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because I know that there's other
things that I value?"
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Other things that I care about,
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like not being sick
for the rest of the night,
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living in a way
that allows me to live my best life,
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as opposed to a life
of constraint or restraint.
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So once I think about "do I really
want the things that I say that I want,"
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what does this tell me about myself?
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What does it mean
that I'm the type of person
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who has to organize my environment
to achieve my wants or my urges?
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Am I someone who has to build resilience,
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because I know that I can't
change my environment,
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or I can't nudge myself to do things?
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Like, what do I need to know
to make good decisions?
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Not about the world yet, but about myself.
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The next question I'll ask is,
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"Is that the type of person
that I want to be?"
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Do I want to be the type of person
that has to manipulate my environment
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versus work on myself?
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Or the type of person
that wants to work on myself,
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and not have so much concern
about the environment around me?
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Those entail very different decisions
and what I'll end up doing.
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And then the last question
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is "How do I achieve
my wants effectively?"
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Now, as an ethicist, you might be saying,
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"You never said 'ought'
or 'should' in any of that."
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Like "What should you do?"
or "What ought you do?"
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And the reason is, if I start
talking about what people should do,
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or if the world says what you ought to do,
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either you're going to say no, right?
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Or you're going to say,
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"Now I have to do
what other people are telling me
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or what the world tells me to do,"
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but I want for people
to do what they feel empowered to do.
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Your values should entail choices,
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not something that you aspire to
but never reach.
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So that's the strategy that I usually use.
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SU: I can sort of see how this method
would lead to more confident
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and values-driven decisions.
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So Ira, our metrics for success
often can be tied to external validation,
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whether it's promotions, awards, whatever.
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Should we rethink how we measure
and define success for ourselves?
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IB: Yes. Next question?
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No, no.
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(Laughter)
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Look, I'll tell you how I define success.
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You can tell me if it's a good definition
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or if we should use something else.
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So I'll define success
as achieving your goals
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through, and not at, the expense
of your beliefs and values.
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Right? And the reason why I do that
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is because, if you're trying
to run someone else's race
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or play someone else's game of life,
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you're not going to win.
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You don't know the rules,
you don't know the skills,
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you don't know the challenges,
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and there's too much uncertainty
to think about, like,
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"What do I need to accommodate?
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And I don't even know
who I'm playing with," right?
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But if you play the game of life
according to your skill set, your desires,
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the team that you want to have
and the game that you want to play,
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I mean, that's a great life
to have, right?
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I mean, there's always risks and costs.
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We're never going to say,
"Well, if I do whatever I want,
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I'll be successful,
based on other people's metrics."
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But what we should be saying
is "What do I actually really want?
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And let me see
if I can get those metrics."
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So when someone asks me,
"OK, how can I be successful?
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What does success mean for me?"
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I'll say, "OK, well,
what metrics are you using?"
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And oftentimes, they'll give me
either big-picture things
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or, like, roles or positions
and stuff like that.
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And then the first thing
I'll say to them is,
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"OK, let's work
with what you're going with here.
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Paint me a picture
of what your life looks like
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when you achieve those things,
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or even while you're pursuing
those things."
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They'll say, "What do you mean?
I have this job. It's great."
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It's like, "What time
do you wake up in the morning?
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Who do you talk to?
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How many emails do you do you send?
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Do you have friends
and time for your friends?
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Do you care about having friends
or time with your friends?"
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Like, when you start
painting that picture,
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what I try to do is not focus
on the possessions or the status,
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but focus on the activities
that you're engaged in.
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Because when you think
about what you're actually doing,
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as opposed to what you're having,
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two things are going to happen.
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One, you're going to stop
thinking about success as possessions,
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such that once you have it,
you then say, "OK, well, now what?"
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Or you have the fear of saying,
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"I thought it was going
to be much more exciting,
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but the pursuit was actually
more exciting than the possession.
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Like, this was a race that I don't know
if it was worth running."
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The second thing,
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when you start thinking
about the activities
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as opposed to the possessions,
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the pleasure of the pursuit
and the pleasure of the activity
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now are aligned.
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So your success is not simply
that, like, momentary "I got it,"
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but it's that continual "I'm doing it."
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And that's a real different
perception of success.
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SU: I want to talk about a topic
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that comes up a lot,
certainly in medicine, but otherwise,
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and that is burnout.
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It's a really big issue
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in a culture that's, frankly,
obsessed with productivity.
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Some call this urgency culture.
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From your perspective,
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what are some of the habits
and practical steps
00:08:52
that people can take
to resist the pressure
00:08:55
that leads them to maybe overwork
in the first place,
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and can help them reconnect
with their core values
00:09:04
and their sense of purpose?
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IB: So burnout is a really tough thing
to talk about, because in one respect,
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you don't want to say that an individual
is responsible for their own burnout,
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because there's a lot of environmental
or situational factors.
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And if you don't recognize those factors,
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you're setting people up to fail.
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So that, I don't want to do.
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At the same time, if you say
the only way to alleviate burnout
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is to rely on the system to change,
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you may be waiting a really long time.
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So I just want to put that out there.
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And then let's talk about some
of the things you mentioned.
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So with regards to urgency culture,
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I think one of the things
that we really have to recognize
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is the difference
between urgency and importance.
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SU: Urgency and importance.
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IB: Yeah, I mean, urgency
requires immediate attention,
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but that doesn't mean
it's important, right?
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If you get an email saying
"In the next five minutes,
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you might have an opportunity
to meet someone
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that could be a potential intern,"
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that's urgent.
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And it may be important
to the potential intern,
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but it may not be important to you.
00:10:07
It's something to think about
in terms of, like,
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"Is the necessity to respond right away
based on how much weight it carries,
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or the time pressure
that's being imposed on you?"
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Something that's important
00:10:20
is a decision that's really significant
to how you're going to live your life.
00:10:25
But it doesn't mean it has to be urgent.
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Like, living a healthy lifestyle,
00:10:30
eating well, having regular
medical checkups
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may not be urgent.
00:10:34
I mean, I guess it depends
how much you procrastinate
00:10:36
in terms of making your calls
for those appointments.
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But they don't have to be urgent.
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But that doesn't mean
that they're not important.
00:10:44
So, in thinking about what we need to do,
00:10:49
it's easy to do the urgent thing
and check the box of completion,
00:10:53
and we all get the satisfaction
of "we've done it."
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But if we don't balance
what we need to do quickly
00:10:59
versus what we need to do
for the sake of our lives,
00:11:02
we're never going to end up
making the time
00:11:05
for those decisions of importance.
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Now, let's go to overwork.
00:11:09
So overworking has a lot
of different factors to it.
00:11:12
You could overwork
because you feel a self-pressure.
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Another way of saying that
00:11:17
is you could overwork
because you really like what you're doing.
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IB: For example, I think I might overwork.
SU: Yeah, I think you do.
00:11:23
IB: Yeah, but it's because the stuff
that I do every day at quote unquote work,
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and when I say quote unquote work,
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it's because, I have a bunch
of different things that I do,
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some of which are work
and some of which are volunteer --
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that's the stuff that I want to do anyway.
00:11:40
Like, I love helping people
think through hard challenges,
00:11:43
whether it's my neighbor,
a colleague or a student.
00:11:48
So the opportunity to do it
in the office versus out of the office,
00:11:54
like, one might be considered work
and one is just, like, what I love.
00:11:59
You may feel overworked
because not of self-pressure,
00:12:02
but because of pressure
from a boss, colleagues or friends,
00:12:05
or social aspects.
00:12:07
That's a very different type of pressure,
that's not about desire.
00:12:11
And that's a question of who's impacting
the decisions you make,
00:12:14
or whose opinions
do you value more, yours or others’.
00:12:20
That also speaks to metrics of success.
00:12:23
You may think that you're overworking
because you just don't value what you do,
00:12:28
so you're working too hard
because you just don't care about it,
00:12:31
or you don't see impact,
or it's not meaningful
00:12:33
or there's no room for growth.
00:12:35
So of course you're overworking --
00:12:37
you're having diminishing marginal
utility, every hour that you spend.
00:12:41
Who cares?
00:12:43
And this is, I think,
the real crux of it --
00:12:47
you may think you're overworking
00:12:48
because you're actually not making
room for the other things that you value.
00:12:52
So just as an interesting story,
in one of my moral leadership classes,
00:12:57
the students went around,
after introducing themselves --
00:13:00
because I make them
introduce themselves all the time --
00:13:03
and they asked themselves the question
00:13:05
"If you had an extra hour in the day,
what would you spend it doing?"
00:13:10
And they all talked
about what they'd spend it doing on.
00:13:14
And I said, "Do you know
what that question really represents?"
00:13:17
And they're like, "Yeah,
00:13:18
if I have an extra hour
in the day, what would I do."
00:13:21
And I said, "No, what it really represents
00:13:24
is 'What do you think you're not spending
enough time on that you wish you were.'"
00:13:29
Because wanting that extra hour
isn't just to say
00:13:31
"I would do the exact same thing
I'm doing now, but more of it."
00:13:34
It's "What do I feel like I'm missing?"
00:13:37
So, we can't give ourselves an extra hour,
00:13:39
but what we can do
is reprioritize really thoughtfully.
00:13:43
SU: You really highlight the need
for intentional living
00:13:47
in everything you've said.
00:13:49
And this leads me to my next question,
which is, you know,
00:13:51
in my work with End Well and as a doctor
who's cared for dying people,
00:13:57
I've really had the privilege of learning
from those nearing the end of their lives,
00:14:02
and their experiences have really
profoundly shaped my perspective
00:14:06
on what truly matters.
00:14:08
I've witnessed how reflecting
on our own mortality
00:14:11
can allow us to be more present,
00:14:14
reminding us to prioritize
meaningful connections
00:14:17
and live with purpose,
00:14:18
rather than letting fear
or maybe busyness dictate our lives.
00:14:24
I know this is something
that I struggle with.
00:14:27
What kinds of tools do you give people
00:14:29
to help them live with greater
intentionality and purpose
00:14:32
in their day-to-day lives,
00:14:34
given that we all have limited time?
00:14:37
IB: You can use all the tools
that I've already mentioned,
00:14:40
in terms of asking
those types of questions,
00:14:42
thinking about importance and urgency,
learning how to prioritize,
00:14:45
having clarity or clarifying
what exactly the issue is.
00:14:48
Like, you can't give
a medical intervention
00:14:51
unless you know what the diagnosis is.
00:14:53
Otherwise, you're just, you know,
throwing darts at a dartboard.
00:14:57
But there is one maxim that I really love.
00:14:59
Like, I just I love this maxim,
because it hits everything for me.
00:15:05
So there's this story
in the Babylonian Talmud,
00:15:09
which is a Jewish religious text,
00:15:11
where Rabbi Eliezer says that you should
repent one day before you die.
00:15:16
And that's not the maxim,
because that's crazy.
00:15:20
I mean, in a good way.
00:15:22
What is amazing to me about it
is his students then come to him and say,
00:15:28
"How do you know when you're going to die?
00:15:30
Like, I need to time this right.
00:15:32
So if I know when I'm going to die,
then I can plan my day.
00:15:35
But if I never know
when I'm going to die, like,
00:15:37
your statement means nothing to me."
00:15:40
And then -- this is what I imagine,
there's no, like, description of it --
00:15:44
but when I close my eyes,
00:15:45
I imagine him having
that smirk or that smile
00:15:48
of, like, "Oh, students, I have you now."
00:15:51
And he says, "No, of course.
00:15:53
All the more so,
00:15:55
you should repent today,
lest you die tomorrow."
00:16:00
What I love about that is it totally
changes what we think about,
00:16:04
in terms of repentance.
00:16:06
Like, when we think about repentance,
00:16:07
we usually think
about we did something wrong,
00:16:10
and we have to return
to a status quo ante.
00:16:12
Like, we've lost something
and we need to say "I'm sorry,"
00:16:16
but you don't live every day
thinking you're going to die tomorrow,
00:16:21
saying, "What did I do wrong today
so I can fix it?"
00:16:25
Like, that's not what he means,
because that would be inapplicable.
00:16:29
What he means about repentance
00:16:31
is returning to the aspirational
and ideal self that you have
00:16:37
in terms of your own, like, self picture.
00:16:39
Like, it's asking yourself
"Is this the life I should be living?
00:16:44
Is there something more?
00:16:45
Am I taking life for granted,
or am I giving it everything that I have?"
00:16:50
It's a very different view of repentance.
00:16:52
It's a return to what you want to be
and who you want to become,
00:16:57
as opposed to a return to what you were,
00:16:59
simply because you used to be that.
00:17:01
SU: Hm, I love that.
00:17:03
I want to touch on community,
00:17:05
because we often think of success
as an individual achievement.
00:17:10
What role, from your perspective,
do community and relationships play
00:17:14
in an understanding of what it means
to live a truly fulfilling life?
00:17:19
IB: That's a really good question,
because it's a really hard question.
00:17:22
I think a lot of times,
when we think about community,
00:17:25
whether that's, you know,
society, neighborhoods,
00:17:27
definitely organizations and companies,
00:17:30
we tend to reify culture and community,
00:17:33
meaning that we think that it's something
over and above or outside
00:17:40
who we are as individuals, right?
00:17:42
But oftentimes, when you think
about community,
00:17:44
you think about culture, right?
00:17:46
Culture is a set
of expectations that we have,
00:17:48
given the interactions that we've had,
like, all of us, right?
00:17:53
Meaning culture is made up
of the behaviors of individuals.
00:17:57
So you can change culture
00:17:59
by changing the behaviors
of the individuals around you.
00:18:02
So when you think about,
like, the role of community,
00:18:05
I want to start really small first.
00:18:07
Like, when you have an achievement
or a success, who do you call?
00:18:13
Who do you share it with?
00:18:15
Now, you don't have to tell me,
00:18:16
but I can imagine everyone in this room
00:18:19
knows someone
or has that person that they call,
00:18:22
which means that if you want
to share your successes,
00:18:26
then you realize
how social of a being you are.
00:18:30
There's a big difference
between having a success
00:18:33
and having someone
to share that success with.
00:18:36
Once you also realize that whole aspect
of sharing and sociality
00:18:40
goes into the final product,
00:18:41
you know that it goes all the way through.
00:18:43
So the problem that we really have
00:18:46
is not necessarily the sharing
of the experience.
00:18:49
We always want to share the experience.
00:18:52
It's thinking about if we share
the success or the credit of it,
00:18:58
it somehow takes away
from our credit of it.
00:19:01
Almost as if success
and achievement is a zero-sum game.
00:19:05
Like, if I say I did this
and someone else did this also,
00:19:10
well, then I did a 50 percent, 75 percent.
00:19:12
I didn't do it wholly, right?
00:19:14
But if success and recognition
of success is a positive-sum game,
00:19:19
sharing success and credit
with someone doesn't take away,
00:19:24
because it's not a matter of,
like, a fixed or a finite amount,
00:19:29
then community is all the more important,
00:19:32
because you're not against the community.
00:19:35
The community not only supports you
and you support it,
00:19:38
but you're deeply embedded
within the other people's lives
00:19:42
with whom you live.
00:19:44
SU: We have an experiential
activity, right?
00:19:48
Ira, you have a really great way
of helping us reframe
00:19:52
how to connect to each other
in a value-led way.
00:19:55
And I want you to share this exercise
with our audience and lead us through it.
00:20:00
So everybody, get ready.
00:20:03
(Laughter)
00:20:04
IB: Sure. So oftentimes, when we think
about who we are and what we do,
00:20:09
and how we present ourselves to the world,
00:20:11
we typically introduce ourselves
through our job, or our family roles,
00:20:16
or through our community involvement.
00:20:18
We'll say, "Hi, I'm Ira. I'm an ethicist."
00:20:20
"What is an ethicist? I have no idea."
00:20:22
Or "Hi, I'm Shoshana, I'm a doctor."
00:20:25
"Oh, I know what that is,
so I don't have to say more."
00:20:29
But oftentimes, when we think
about identifying ourselves
00:20:32
by the roles that we have,
00:20:34
whether they're social or communal,
whether they're family roles,
00:20:37
whether they're job roles,
00:20:39
you both rely on assumptions
of "OK, everyone knows what that is."
00:20:44
But you also hide so much.
00:20:47
Like, if I say, "Hi, I'm Ira, I'm a dad,"
00:20:51
you're like, "Great. I know you have kids,
but do I know if you like them?
00:20:55
Are you good with them?
Do you spend time with them?
00:20:58
Like, do they know who you are?"
00:21:01
All of that is hidden, right?
00:21:03
Where, if I told you, "Hi, I'm a dad,
00:21:07
but what that means for me
is I love spending time with my children,
00:21:11
but most importantly,
00:21:12
what I love is showing them how to love
the things that they do love
00:21:18
so that they're fully invested
in how they live their life,"
00:21:22
you know so much more
about how I teach my children,
00:21:26
probably the activities we do together.
00:21:28
You might think about, like,
what our relationship is, and so forth.
00:21:32
Like, it just tells more
when you think about the activities
00:21:35
than you do about simply the roles.
00:21:39
It also does one more thing.
00:21:41
It reminds me of what I do
and what I care about.
00:21:44
So it's not simply just a projection
outward, it's a reminder inward.
00:21:49
So we're going to do this as an activity.
00:21:52
Instead of introducing yourselves
to the people who you sit next to
00:21:56
based on your roles,
00:21:58
take a minute,
00:21:59
and think about what activities
or interests light you up,
00:22:02
or how would you describe your character
and the way you show up in the world,
00:22:05
or what beliefs or values guide you
in facing challenges and opportunities,
00:22:11
and then introduce yourself
and see how that goes.
00:22:14
(Overlapping chatter)
00:22:21
IB: Alright, so now that we all
introduced ourselves,
00:22:24
we're going to just do
a real quick show of hands.
00:22:27
So let me ask a quick question.
00:22:30
In introducing yourself this way,
00:22:34
how much more open were you
to not only share with somebody else,
00:22:40
but to allow that other person
to share back with you?
00:22:43
Raise your hand.
00:22:45
How many of you were like,
"Nope, I'm not doing this"?
00:22:48
(Laughter)
00:22:49
OK, cool. So I will tell you,
00:22:50
I did this exercise with a bunch
of senior leaders and executives,
00:22:56
and one executive told me, afterwards,
that he had, like, a board meeting,
00:23:01
and it's a new board.
00:23:02
And he was a little nervous
and figured, "You know what?
00:23:05
I'm going to not do my regular spiel.
00:23:07
I'm going to do what you said,
even though it sounds crazy,
00:23:10
and let's just see what happens."
00:23:11
And he said that the feeling in the room,
before he introduced himself,
00:23:15
was very stiff,
00:23:17
and in a way that almost put him
on the defensive.
00:23:20
It was just super closed off,
00:23:21
because it expected the formality
of the scripts they were always used to.
00:23:26
And when he broke the script,
people became human again, right?
00:23:31
So one thing that I suggest
00:23:33
is scripts are good,
they set expectations.
00:23:36
Scripts are also really good to break,
because you can see what lies underneath.
00:23:40
SU: Last question, Ira.
00:23:42
If you could change one thing
00:23:44
about the way that we think
about living a meaningful life,
00:23:47
what would that be?
00:23:50
IB: Meaning and finding meaning
00:23:52
is an active, rather
than a passive endeavor.
00:23:55
Like, let's not wait and think
about how meaning can come to us.
00:24:00
Let's search it out.
00:24:02
Let's find it in a way
that's exploratory and creative.
00:24:07
There's one thing
that I really like to tell people,
00:24:10
partly because it's funny,
but mostly because it's true.
00:24:13
I like to tell people
to think about new ways of being,
00:24:17
or new ideas or new actions,
00:24:21
as clothes that you're trying on
just to see how they fit.
00:24:26
Like, oftentimes, when we're thinking
about "What can I change?"
00:24:29
the very notion of the idea of change
00:24:33
makes us feel like we have to commit
to it before we even try it,
00:24:37
like buying clothes from Amazon
with no return policy.
00:24:41
(Laughter)
00:24:43
But if you can try things on
and see how they fit,
00:24:47
then you could see
if you're comfortable in it,
00:24:49
if you like it.
00:24:50
And then, you'll be able
to see better options,
00:24:53
because you'll have more choices
available to you.
00:24:55
That's how you can squeeze
meaning out of your life.
00:24:58
SU: OK. I always learn
so much from you, Ira.
00:25:02
Thank you so much for this conversation.
00:25:04
IB: No, thank you.
SU: Thank all of you.
00:25:06
(Applause)
