00:00:00
There must have been an ecosystem in place, for
you to facilitate this kind of economic activity
00:00:05
and that's where I think Kautilya’s framework
comes into play. His focus was primarily on
00:00:11
having economic development, being a driver for
peace and prosperity. Perhaps he understood in
00:00:18
Kaliyuga that, you probably need money more than
anything else or regions had and understanding of
00:00:25
the people's sense that economic development is
very important. Kautilya focused on meritocracy
00:00:29
that everyone had equal opportunity and all
positions of government had provided the idea of
00:00:35
incentive based labor contracts. So he understood
that people work only when you provide them
00:00:39
incentives and you provide incentives based on the
individuals needs. For example there's a quote it
00:00:46
says “The miser should be won over by means
of wealth, the proud man by offering respect,
00:00:51
the fool by flattery and learned are
won by fruitfulness”.
00:00:54
Thanks for inviting me to the Srijan foundation.
I am glad to give a presentation on the book that
00:01:08
I am working on Arthashastra. Just a couple of
things before we get into the presentation. The
00:01:15
first thing is, while we discuss Arthashastra, we
need to understand the context when it happened.
00:01:20
So a lot about Chanakya, I mean Kautilya’s
thoughts are related in that context. So
00:01:27
that's something we need to keep in mind.
The second thing is also in terms of the
00:01:33
nature of the text. If you really look with the
Arthashastra, it's very dense, it's very poetic
00:01:38
in nature and the way it's communicated is in
a very different format, compared to our prose,
00:01:46
that we are used to in today's times. So it
took a lot of time to first understand what
00:01:52
some aspects of the text are, though there are
translations and then making interpretations to
00:01:58
our current time. So that would involve you to,
kind of make some assumptions along the way. So
00:02:06
that's the second thing and the third thing is
I think, it's also important, you look at it
00:02:10
in a non-partisan manner, in a political manner
because often nowadays what happens is, you come
00:02:15
up with a preconceived notion and then you want
to jump over to reinforce that notion. If you
00:02:21
can kind of take that aside I am a political and
generally the view on just the text and then it
00:02:28
makes it far more fascinating, just to understand
Kautilya’s time, so that, so most of we starts,
00:02:34
independent compared to say what Srijan foundation
and other organizations have on the subject.
00:02:41
So this is a quick overview what you are going
to talk about. One is ancient India's economic
00:02:49
growth, I think that context has to be set,
before we go into the Kautilya’s framework.
00:02:54
Then the contours of Kautilya strong defense,
communal harmony and governance which was some
00:03:00
of the three key principles that he had and
then we go into economic development, taxation,
00:03:05
trade, landed resource, management labor and
ethics and then of course the conclusion.
00:03:11
So this context is important. If you
look at them, the global growth story,
00:03:18
over the past say thousand years, this provides an
overview of that. As you can see, Western nations
00:03:27
have been a forefront of global growth especially
for the last two to 200-300 years and if you look
00:03:34
at the quantity of GDP data obviously, it's far
higher in recent times and Industrial Revolution
00:03:43
was one of the key catalysts in the last 200-300
years to drive this growth, and obviously in the
00:03:50
21st century with digital systems coming in,
this is going to evolve further. Well these
00:03:57
are all common factoids, the question really is
how was ancient world's economic landscape. If
00:04:03
you really zoom into what we are talking about,
from Common Era beginning or AD till about 1700,
00:04:12
that's a phase which I think is very crucial to
our discussion and it's also important for us
00:04:18
to look at authentic research-based information,
rather than making anecdotal observation.
00:04:23
So, one of the major works on the world economies
by Angus Madison. He was an well-known economist.
00:04:31
He quartered the world economy a millennial
perspective in 2001. So that research basically
00:04:40
covers, the growth over a period of thousand
years and what, how the world can shaped in this
00:04:47
thousand years and some mammoth research, which
he completed in 2001 and his team continued it
00:04:54
till date. It's been updated, even though
he passed away in 2010, it's been updated
00:04:59
till now. So if you really look at the data from
the Common Era beginning all the way till 1700,
00:05:09
India and China were literally leading in GDP. In
the beginning phase, India was higher than China,
00:05:15
if you notice and then India retains eighteen
thousand, thousand five hundred. China comes
00:05:21
slightly higher than India and thousand six
hundred, China takes a jump compared to India,
00:05:26
in terms of GDP. But during this entire time
till 1700, where India again overshoots China,
00:05:34
but during this entire phase, if you look
the Western countries or Western Europe,
00:05:38
their contribution to global GDP was much
lower and you had a significant contribution
00:05:45
from India and China towards global GDP.
So we are looking at a period of almost seven
00:05:50
hundred years, where different rulers were there
in these countries. But there was something there,
00:05:57
which made them powerful or one of the top
countries in the world. So there are two lines of
00:06:03
argument here. One line is in those days because
of lack of production and lack of Industrial
00:06:09
Revolution, the population was a representative
economic activity. So the more people you had, the
00:06:15
more kind of economic activity that you have. So
that is one worldview that people interpret.
00:06:20
Another worldview is that, countries like India
and China had a lot of resources at that time, lot
00:06:26
of wealth, natural resources and that transferred
into this growth, during this period of time and
00:06:31
there was a system in place. My analysis basically
goes at the beginning of the Common Era and before
00:06:38
my understanding, this entire system is that, what
I feel is that, there must have been an ecosystem
00:06:44
in place, for you to facilitate this kind of
economic activity and that's where I think
00:06:48
Kautilya’s framework comes into play.
So, what was Kautilya’s major goal? His
00:06:59
fundamental approach was to ensure peace and
prosperity in the kingdom, at least the modern
00:07:07
Kingdom and that was one of the principal
goals that he had. But only difference is,
00:07:14
he wanted economic development to be the core that
facilitates this. So, he wanted to ensure that
00:07:21
unlike in ancient times, his focus was primarily
on having economic development being a driver for
00:07:29
peace and prosperity, perhaps he understood in
Kaliyuga, that you probably need money more than
00:07:35
anything else or regions had and understanding of
the people's sense that economic development is
00:07:41
very important. But on top of economic development
he had three fundamental pillars, which were core
00:07:48
to his understanding in the world. One was strong
defense capabilities as you can see; another is
00:07:53
communal harmony, which is again something
that was very, very important to Kautilya
00:08:00
and then strong and robust governance. So these
were three principles which Kautilya had.
00:08:06
So if you look at defense capabilities, for
example, he suggested building of ports,
00:08:12
he had a large army, diplomatic initiatives
and also setting up intelligence gathering and
00:08:16
analysis units. For example there are four
types of fighting units besides the strong
00:08:22
force. It had an infantry, a cavalry and chariot
divisions and an elephant divisions and there
00:08:27
are six different types of troops; in fact they
were called a Maulabala, bhrtabala, srenibala,
00:08:33
mitrabala, amitrabala and atavibala and it
also makes a distinction in the Arthashastra
00:08:39
between fighters in land and water. So there
is also an interpretation that in those days
00:08:45
there were defense equipment in the sea as well.
It also makes a case for strong foreign policy
00:08:53
through a six fold policy, which I think a lot of
people have covered in their early interpretations
00:08:58
about the Arthashastra and governing from
that standpoint of vijigishu which is a
00:09:03
protocol and how the expanding state.
So even if you are conquering, say, other
00:09:07
countries, what are some of the dynamic things
that you need to do, while doing that. So those
00:09:13
were some of the ideas, that he had and communal
harmony was one of the central points of Kautilya.
00:09:21
He made sure that irrespective of what religion
or what God, people worshiped there was communal
00:09:29
harmony at the base of whatever the king of the
kingdom did. So that was something he persisted
00:09:35
across board and there are many instances for
example he is again superstitious thinking,
00:09:40
there are many quotes in the Arthashastra where he
says specifically that there's no point looking at
00:09:44
the stars, you have to look at what is happening
on the ground, you and there are many instances
00:09:50
where he separates religion from the state, where
while he focuses on Dharma as a principle, but he
00:09:57
also makes an attempt to ensure that everyone
has given equal rights and equal treatment and
00:10:03
it was harmonious social framework that is one
of the base that Kautilya’s basically focused
00:10:09
on. Strong and robust common governance.
So it basically had three basic traits, one is
00:10:14
provision of public infrastructure. He believed
that the state has to invest by building forts,
00:10:21
irrigation works or trade routes, new settlements
or building, new mines. So he believed that one of
00:10:27
the roles of the state, is to build infrastructure
for the people. So that was something that he was
00:10:33
contingent upon and interestingly he wanted to
promote economic growth, by removing barriers to
00:10:39
trade and business. This we will detail probably
later in the presentation. But trade was one of
00:10:45
the big components of economic activity in
those times, besides agriculture and cattle
00:10:50
farming. So he wanted to ensure that all kinds of
barriers are removed for trade, so that people can
00:10:59
trade from across various countries within the
kingdom as well as outside and more importantly,
00:11:06
if you notice there's a quote which says that
in the interest of prosperity if the country
00:11:11
king should remove, all obstructions to economic
activity and prevent loss of revenue to the state,
00:11:16
which basically means, he saw it is a big
revenue mobilizer for the kingdom.
00:11:22
Modern economic thinking promotes trade,
international trade and that something
00:11:29
probably he had as an ideated stage, at an
idea level.., even during Kautilya in times.
00:11:34
And again carrying in a clean corruption free
administration, he is very particular on holding
00:11:43
the law and fulfilling the needs of Raj Dharma
and also freedom of speech. So he focused a lot
00:11:50
on transparency and corruption free as well and
he also focused on freedom of speech. So he,
00:11:55
where citizens could get complete information on
the government or on the kingdom. So this could
00:12:02
be at some level at a conceptual similar to the
RTI where people could go to the government and
00:12:08
ask basic questions and governance and Kautilya
encouraged people within his administration, that
00:12:14
they should be open to what the questions from
the people on administration and also protection
00:12:20
of property rights and freedom of speech
was fundamental to his governance.
00:12:24
So coming to economic development… So there
are five components that were there during the
00:12:30
Kautilya’s time. I think a lot of it is relevant
even today. One was taxation, another was trade,
00:12:36
labor, land and ethics. So these were five key
components even during those times. I think
00:12:43
besides technology, because probably manufacturing
or the industries, I think more or less all these
00:12:50
companies still exist today in our civilization.
So if you really look at what are the growth
00:12:57
drivers as you can call it, one is Krishi,
which is basically agriculture. Like I mentioned
00:13:03
earlier, other is Pasupalya, it's basically
cattle lending. There is a lot of land available,
00:13:07
so cattle was and animals were used in these
lands and then Vanijya, which is trade.
00:13:14
So trade formed an important component, especially
for mining, in minerals, which is a component of
00:13:21
trade, which was important to transfer mines,
resources, gold and wealth across the country
00:13:28
within the modern kingdom as well as even
outside. So if you look at taxation…. so what
00:13:36
did Kautilya’s believe in taxation. He believed
that income tax is an institution of kingship went
00:13:43
together because obviously when you pay taxes,
it's a revenue stream for the government. So
00:13:49
the king, it was something that he wanted so
that he can redistribute that to the people,
00:13:53
for example, there's a court and he says well,
there's no order in society, they assigned to
00:13:57
the king one sixth part of the grains grown
by them and one tenth of other commodities and
00:14:02
money. The king then used these to save care
safeguard the welfare of the subjects.
00:14:06
So even during crisis, there were, there was
provisions and reasonable provisions to get
00:14:13
money from the people and he was also smart enough
to understand the limitation of Taxation. Kautilya
00:14:19
knew that, I mean he mentions that. For example,
the limitation of taxation is very limited,
00:14:24
I mean the power of taxation is limited because
if you raise it too much people get angry. If you
00:14:30
rely on it too much people get angry, and if you
increase it too much also beyond a point, people
00:14:36
get frustrated. So he understood that there needs
to be a balance and he mentions that you need to
00:14:41
balance your revenue that you can get from taxes
over a period of time. This is really interesting.
00:14:49
So they had something called a ‘Kara’, which is
basically a general income tax. So, one-sixth
00:14:55
of any income is a flat rate for all residents;
they had to pay 1/6 of the income on a flat rate,
00:15:02
which is similar to, if you really look at our
taxes about today. I mean 1/6 is about 15-20 %.
00:15:08
It's somewhere there, I mean an average. It might
vary between countries and then there was a Bhaga,
00:15:15
which is a tax or income payable in cash.
So he understood the difference between what you
00:15:21
have in cash or some other denomination or Pana-s
which is the currency and what you had an asset in
00:15:31
terms of land and things like that. There's also a
concept of wealth tax in an indirect sense. So if,
00:15:37
Kautilya believe that if you had income beyond
a particular point, people who are extremely
00:15:42
wealthy also had to pay a certain amount of
tax to the state. He understood that too many,
00:15:50
too much concentration of wealth is also a
problem and then there's ideas of Bali which is
00:15:57
an occasional levy on the goods; Vyagi, which is
a sales tax, which Kautilya had for businesses and
00:16:05
the most interesting thing is this Udakabhaga,
which is like a water tax. So, for example,
00:16:11
let's say you have a house and it has a reservoir
next to house and use the reservoir for a lot of
00:16:16
purposes, say irrigation whatever it is, so he
imposed a water tax on that, so that people who,
00:16:23
are lucky to have natural resources, also kind of
paid back to the state compared to other people,
00:16:29
who don't have those resources. So these were
the type of taxes that was relevant then.
00:16:34
So if you really look at the different, say for
example, agriculture, I mean in farmers in India
00:16:44
nowadays are not taxed. But in those days it was
dependent on the produce of the land. So you say,
00:16:50
you are a rich farmer and you produce a lot of
produce, so then you had to give 1/6 of that to
00:17:02
the state and businesses and corporates were
also taxed. For example, if you really look
00:17:06
at the table that's being mentioned here, so
gold for example silver, gems were taxed at 50
00:17:13
Panas. Panas is like rupees. It's the currency
that was there during Kautilya’s time. Copper,
00:17:18
brass, perfumes were at 40, grain and liquids were
at 30, other craftsmen at 10, and wood bamboo and
00:17:25
earthware were at 5. So, these were fixed rates,
but they were also changing depending on time.
00:17:31
So he was here, the vision to keep changing the
taxes depending on the situation. If there's a
00:17:37
need for more, he would increase it giving certain
authorities, sometimes he would keep in the same,
00:17:43
that was flexible and then if you look at the
wealth tax, which I mentioned earlier.
00:17:47
So there's also quote which mentions that,
“he should demand a third or fourth part of
00:17:53
the grains in a region that's not depending on
rains and yields abundant crops according to
00:17:57
yield”. So again what we call as a graduated
tax, depending on income levels, was at a
00:18:04
conceptual level done by Kautilya at that time.
The difference was he is focused more on yields
00:18:10
and more on because most of the people were used
in, where the professions was an agriculture. So,
00:18:17
he used the concept yields to graduate the
tax. But as nowadays we do it based on income,
00:18:22
where there's a minimum income and beyond which
you start getting taxed. So at a conceptual level
00:18:30
he also probably had that vision as well.
Trade is something, it's probably one of the most
00:18:39
fascinating things which I have seen from the
Arthashastra. There example… there is a quote
00:18:45
which kind of mentions about how pearls could
be imported from Ceylon, a aloe from Burma,
00:18:52
woolen clothes from Nepal and furs and horses
from Gandhara. Gandhara which is today probably
00:18:57
Afghanistan and Vanayu from Arabia, Persia
and wine from Afghanistan and Scythia. I
00:19:03
mean this is probably a translation, but
the mood of the text is something similar,
00:19:07
which basically tells you that, there's a lot of
activity across board, across the region rather,
00:19:13
not just within modern India and the nature of
trade was basically defined by two key things.
00:19:21
One is high risk and high value goods and they had
high value goods as well, and he also believed in
00:19:28
the need for free and fair trading system and
high importance to imports and exports.
00:19:32
If you really look at what philosophy, he had
on trade, it's quite interesting. One is… he
00:19:41
believed that it was a revenue accumulating
mechanism, which means, trade gave money to
00:19:46
the state and he believed that more trade that
will give more revenue to the state. So that was
00:19:52
something is promoting. The interesting thing
is, he preferred imports, far more than exports
00:19:58
that's contrary into how we evolved now a days,
where the focus is more on being competitive in
00:20:05
exports and but he for some unique reason,
probably Kautilya believe that the resources
00:20:13
that you get from outside, the more and more if we
could accumulate and then give it for his people,
00:20:17
then it also adds probably a kind of a value to
his people. So he preferred imports and gave a
00:20:26
lot of exemptions for high value imports like gems
and gold and things like that and also believe in
00:20:33
the potential for exports, greater economies
of scale, that's another thing he believed
00:20:37
in getting large quantities of trade, not small
quantities. He wanted to do it big and he believed
00:20:43
that had to be a focus and high and low value
goods were also included as part of this.
00:20:50
There was a trade structure in place, for example,
there was the Panyadhaksha which is basically
00:20:57
the superintendent of trade. So this person
basically controls, like the officer in charge
00:21:03
of trade through the Mauryan kingdom and he, and
Kautilya basically says that he is given a lot
00:21:11
of responsibilities. One issue is fixing price of
commodities, after looking at investment capital
00:21:16
and duties and things like that and then he was
also intervenes with a shortage of commodities and
00:21:23
in terms of and here an acute sense of demand and
supply in the market according to the Arthashastra
00:21:29
and the row, there's also team which kind of
surveyed for these inputs which is reported to the
00:21:36
Panyadhaksha. So there's a team of surveyors who
could go around in the countryside to understand
00:21:41
what the demand is and give him a sense so that
he can take a call. So all the state control
00:21:48
trade was within his domain and it determines
how, how they are produced immediately outside
00:21:53
the country. So basically it's a combination of
what the RBI would do nowadays compared and also
00:22:00
what's a the Ministry of Commerce might do.
So the Panyadhaksha had a lot of power in this
00:22:06
sense because he controlled the most dominant part
of the economy. So he was a superintend of trade
00:22:12
and then there was a some Sansthadhaksha, which
basically looks it's consumer interest. So in
00:22:16
terms of, say your products, whether they are good
quality, quality control whether you are cheating
00:22:22
you in terms of goods from other countries.
So he did a quality check he also ensured that
00:22:27
secondhand goods were not, duties were limited
on them. So he was in charge of doing a quality
00:22:39
check and all this and a Sulkadhyaksa, which
was is the superintendent of customs. So this
00:22:44
is the person who's the border of the kingdom
and here ensure that custom duties and imports
00:22:50
and exports were all taken care and the excise
duties and indigenous products were also taken
00:22:54
care. So these were duties and tariffs which were
their existing during that time, sell feeling in
00:22:59
an indirect, in a different terminology,
but some amount was given for this.
00:23:04
So list of articles include a wide range from
flowers, fruits, diamonds and pearls as well.
00:23:14
On the other hand, exemptions duties included
secret things. So goods associated with high,
00:23:20
with gifts, imports of arms of all kinds, jewels
and grains were duty free. So this is where your,
00:23:26
his name is emphasis on imports, is seen more
because these products were given duty-free during
00:23:34
that time and they range from, for example, 1/5
of the products value to 125th of the value and
00:23:40
the tariffs were build in percentage depending on
the nature of goods. Again, he had the vision to
00:23:46
vary the tariffs according to goods and did that
in a very structured manner. So that the demand
00:23:53
for a particular product does not go too high
or does not go too low because of the tariffs,
00:23:58
and another fascinating thing is internal trade
was very prevalent during that time as much as
00:24:04
external trade. So even today, for example, if you
take modern India, different states of different
00:24:10
regulations for you to do business. So perhaps the
GST tries to simplify it, but because of all the
00:24:18
regulations, various state’s internal trade is
not as effective compared to, perhaps, external
00:24:26
trade, where it's far more systematic.
So, what Kautilya believed is the internal trade
00:24:31
had to be as per will and as external trade.
So, for example, barriers were removed, they
00:24:37
moved in Sarthas, which is basically caravans,
internally. But safety was a big issue in those
00:24:44
days because you had all these law and order
problems. So they were, for example, there was
00:24:52
internal security the lot, lot of focus was given
and road cess called Vartani was established. So
00:24:59
that is basically insurance for it, for caravans.
They say, you are going from Delhi to Chandigarh,
00:25:05
for example, between these two points, there
was a road cess, Vartani which is paid. So,
00:25:11
it's more like an insurance. So between these two
points and you move the goods from one point or
00:25:15
another there's any problem with the goods, the
state or the insurance guy will repay everything,
00:25:20
if there's a problem. So there was a kind of
an insurance, kind of a system which is working
00:25:28
during that time in an informal set up and also
standardization of weights and measures used in
00:25:34
trade. So lots of currency and denominations were
standardized across the kingdom, So it's easier
00:25:39
for people to go from one state to another in
terms of transactions and things like that.
00:25:44
So land is another big chunk of activity in those
times. So most of the land belong to the state
00:25:55
unless you had leased out the farmers after a
detailed background check. The state provided
00:26:01
incentives, I mean the subsidies that we have
today, say whether it's a farm loan waiver or
00:26:08
some form of subsidies that the state gives free,
whether it's rice or wheat. They also had similar
00:26:16
incentives to help people, with seeds cattle and
sometimes even cash to boost their standard of
00:26:22
living, cash being the Panas that I spoke about
the local currency. Sunyavinesha which is one of
00:26:28
the main goals of the government is occupy and
restore unoccupied land because lots of land
00:26:33
which is unoccupied. But the another interesting
thing is, even though the state owns the mines,
00:26:38
this clearly mentioned that, say for example,
you find a treasure where I live, the treasure
00:26:45
actually belongs to the person who's living there.
So they provided incentives for people to use the
00:26:49
land of the state and they had a share, sharing
agreement, so that people use it in legitimate
00:26:58
manner and build business on it.
Not all land was controlled by the state
00:27:02
and that's why the concept of private sector comes
into play. There is no mention of… private sector
00:27:09
is not there in Arthashastra. But it also mentions
there are some lands which were not controlled by
00:27:17
a state, which I think we can fairly assume
it's not controlled by the state. There's
00:27:21
some private party there controlling it. So if
you look at private ownership like I mentioned,
00:27:29
the land doesn't belong to Sithyadhaksha which
is the head of the home, say home secretary or
00:27:38
someone who's overseeing the land process, and is
believed to be belonging to the private sector,
00:27:45
Samaharta, which is like the Ministry of
Corporate Affairs is believed to be in
00:27:48
charge of monitoring private lands.
They had gopas and sthanika to provide
00:27:52
support which means they had a team, which
basically ensured monitoring of these lands
00:27:56
whether they were taken care and things like
that.…. also process of selling a particular
00:28:01
piece of land. So land auctions in a unique
form used to take place where they used to
00:28:08
have a process and get people together, to
sell land in a public kind of an auction,
00:28:14
kind of a set up. Sethubanda again another
interesting concept is irrigation networks which
00:28:20
is constructed by the straight for agriculture. So
the state makes an attempt to construct irrigation
00:28:26
networks and it also gives private irrigation
networks. So there were irrigation networks
00:28:32
which belong to private entities, who used it
for their oversight. But on top of all this,
00:28:38
state had an oversight even on the private sector
and monitored all the agriculture is produced by
00:28:44
the Statistics Department. So they had a team
of civil surveyors going to all these areas,
00:28:48
who could something similar to what we have in
terms of statistics to pass Central Statistics
00:28:55
Office perhaps, something similar to that. But at
a conceptual level that was also there during that
00:29:03
time, for surveying and things like that.
Labor is another component, one of the scholars
00:29:13
and the subject mentions that he found the right
mix. Mr. Balbir singh finds the right mix of job
00:29:19
security servings and sanctions, to address the
issue moral hazards. They are very innovative
00:29:25
thing that at least for those times. Kautilya
focused on meritocracy, that everyone had equal
00:29:32
opportunity and all positions of the government
had provided the idea of incentive based labor
00:29:36
contracts. So he understood that people work
only when you provide them incentives and you
00:29:42
provide incentives based on the individual’s
needs, for example, there's a quote. It says,
00:29:47
“The miser should be won over by means of wealth,
the proud man by offering respect, the fool by
00:29:53
flattery and learned and won by fruitfulness”.
So here a sense of understanding of different
00:29:57
types of people and how to motivate them to had
incentives and that was kind of, one of his key
00:30:05
traits and salaries were again provided according
to graded skills. So for example, the highest
00:30:10
grade was provided about 4000 to 48000 Panas, say
for example, in a civil service one of the higher
00:30:16
grades they might whatever the salary range, so
they had a like a segregation, the middle grade
00:30:22
was given about two fifty three thousand Panas.
The lowest grade is about 60 to 120 Panas.
00:30:26
But the interesting thing is, in the lowest
grade, because there is a sense of discussion
00:30:32
in the Arthashastra where Kautilya talks about the
concept of minimum wage, it had a very conception
00:30:39
level. He says below going a particular for
employees, you can't go below a particular point,
00:30:44
that is flexible though, most of the time that
is a mention over 60 Panas. So I mentioned that,
00:30:51
that amount is flexible and that can
be varied. So the concept of minimum
00:30:56
wage that we have in the West, for example,
the United States, so what eight dollars,
00:31:01
eight or nine dollars minimum wage. Now they are
trying to increase it. So at that level he also
00:31:07
understood that people can't be paid beyond a
lower point and he had a benchmark for that and
00:31:12
that was negotiable and that was interesting
because he understood that because of other
00:31:16
factors because of inflation or other factors
this could all, this also needs to be changed,
00:31:21
not a fixed kind of a notion and he believed in
moral motivation as a driver of labor efficiency,
00:31:26
which is again an interesting concept because
he believed that if people who are honest and
00:31:30
people had good moral fiber, modern moral ethics
that could cause them to be more productive, that
00:31:37
then the labor becomes more efficient. When you
go and do a particular activity, you are honest,
00:31:43
you do the activity properly and then you come out
there's no corruption no none of all that.
00:31:47
So he believed in the moral motivation as
well as a driver of efficiency. And the idea
00:31:54
of labor contracts, there is, for example,
a quote which says “the agreement between a
00:31:58
laborer and one hiring him must be public. The
laborer should be paid wages as agreed upon. If
00:32:03
there is no prior agreement laborer should be
paying accordance with the nature of the work,
00:32:06
time spent on his customary rates”. So this is
a translated version of one of the translations
00:32:12
where he mentions the some level of understanding
an agreement has to be done between the laborer
00:32:18
and the employer and that has to be transparent,
so that it also shows that he also focused on
00:32:26
the rights of the laborer and put to some extent
protected it as well with big companies and like I
00:32:36
mentioned earlier the concept of minimum wage was
something that I think. It's been explored in the
00:32:42
Arthashastra or at least spoken about and there's
also focus on skill based workforce, for example,
00:32:50
there were camps or at least agricultural skill
development schemes, which he kind of thought
00:32:56
about he believed that skill based labor force is
something very important. So skills were core to
00:33:02
his way of developing the social framework.
Lastly what ethics? He firmly believed in the
00:33:12
rule of law governed by the rule of law, which
alone can guarantee security of life from the
00:33:16
welfare of people. It's in turn dependent on
the self-discipline. It's also important that
00:33:21
he believes that the king, the person who's
ruling the country, needed to have a ethical
00:33:25
framework far higher than normal people because he
believed that the king had to lead by an example,
00:33:31
and he had to obey law and he had to be well
versed in a wide range of things including
00:33:38
scholarly work as well as other types of
work and that was the benchmark here.
00:33:44
Yogakshema was one of the focuses of Kautilya. I
mean he could call it Lokakshama or yogakshema.
00:33:52
But essentially global welfare who irrespective
of the citizenry in the country, even if some
00:33:58
foreigner comes in, they were given equal, if
not better treatment during that phase time,
00:34:03
because he believed that, he did not
believe more in the concept of nation,
00:34:08
national identities. He believed in being open
to everyone and focused on using education. In
00:34:16
those days of Vedas and other sources as a tool
to enhance ethics and public discourse and also
00:34:22
made a conscious effort to reduce the influence
of superstition, which I mentioned earlier,
00:34:26
promoted honest conduct, governance and
honest conduct is a single most important
00:34:33
governance tool during the Kautilya phase and
obviously he believed fairness and society was
00:34:41
integral to economic prosperity as well.
So in summary what we have just looked at over a
00:34:48
period of half an hour, is that if you look at all
these various boxes we look at taxation in trade,
00:34:56
land, labor and ethics in taxation, I spoke
about something similar to an income tax,
00:35:01
similar to a corporate tax, we spoke about more
or less in inheritance tax or wealth tax which is
00:35:08
there and then in trade we spoke about governance
structures, import duties and there is export
00:35:14
duties and there is in land. We again spoke about
land rights and ownership, which is what our land
00:35:20
bill is, all about for people and private land
ownership as well and statistics department,
00:35:28
ministry of statistics, in terms of land and in
terms of labor, we spoke about labor contracts,
00:35:33
the minimum wage and also skill based workforce
and ethics, obviously a freedom of expression in
00:35:39
governance, which comes through say mechanisms
like the RTI and honors governance and also
00:35:46
promotion of best practices in government.
So in conclusion, I think these are the elements
00:35:52
that some aspects that I have covered which are
there in my book, which I hope to publish next
00:35:58
year. But there's a far more information available
in terms of content. But the question is how do
00:36:05
you extract the content, and do a correlation
to contemporary times, and if you look at it,
00:36:15
most of it as broad references because the way the
texts shape, it's so dense that it takes a lot of
00:36:21
time to, kind of, make those references and pull
together Kautilya’s thought process and it's still
00:36:29
a work in progress and in fact I have gone to a
level, going worse by worse in some of the cases
00:36:36
too, to see the translations because translation
becomes another, I mean, I think most of you would
00:36:42
kind of understand the complexity, because how do
you translate a word like Dharma for example. You
00:36:49
call it righteousness, do you call it truth, you
call it way of life, do you call it you know Raj
00:36:55
Dharma, you call it a lifestyle… So there are
multiple connotations when it comes to entities
00:37:02
and some of the Western translations
might not get the grasp of this.
00:37:07
So some of our own older translations might not
give you the full depth of it. So going through
00:37:15
the things with gurus, and trying to understand it
and then, and try to make a framework out of it,
00:37:22
the problem I would call with the entire setup is,
you don't really have frameworks like what we have
00:37:31
today. It's more of a set of ideas perhaps
in those times, it was something or others,
00:37:37
there's, there's, there's a locker key or
something into those texts which could give
00:37:41
you that. But perhaps in those times, those
ideas were good enough. So the frameworks is
00:37:47
or the establishing frameworks probably the
next challenge, but it's fascinating to note
00:37:53
that a lot of the ideas that we have today how
emanated during the time and probably they had,
00:38:00
it's all there in part of the text. I don't want
to go which came earlier and into that jargon,
00:38:05
but just understanding this gives me a lot
of pleasure and I think we should be also
00:38:10
cognizant of this overall, but anyways
this that's about it and thanks.
00:38:16
Just one more thing on the acknowledgments. I just
wanted to thank obviously the, the main text the
00:38:25
Kautilya’s Arthashastra on by R Shyama Sastry
is a fantastic translation. It was in nineteen,
00:38:32
early nineteenth century Mr. Kangle and Mr.
professor Balbir singh Suhag brilliant book
00:38:38
and the Contours of World Economy, that's a must
read anything for folks. Here if you can catch a
00:38:44
copy of Angus medicines and Arthashastra
and Niti Shastra. Another thing is that,
00:38:49
a lot of the content in Arthashastra comes from
Niti Shastra and Nyaya Shastra. So there's a lot
00:38:55
of overlap with the Dharma Shastra as well and
it's a sequence of 14-15 chapters which have kind
00:39:02
of evolved over time. So if you really want to
know this, you have to go into others scriptures
00:39:08
and then bring back into content and ‘Corporate
Life in Ancient India’ by Majumdar, is also a good
00:39:13
source. But just like to thank all of them. I am
just trying to use these and as well as try some
00:39:21
of my own interpretations in my book and hopefully
you guys buy the book and read it next year.
