How to Think About Risk with Howard Marks

00:36:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXQBUSryfdM

Summary

TLDRIn "How to Think About Risk," Howard Marks delves into the nuanced understanding of risk in the investment realm. He stresses the importance of approaching risk evaluation from a thoughtful perspective rather than simply adhering to preset notions of risk. Marks argues that the ultimate test of an investor's prowess lies in their ability to adeptly manage risk, highlighting that risk is not synonymous with volatility. Instead, risk should be viewed as the probability of loss, a notion he believes is more aligned with real-world investing scenarios. Marks challenges the common academic reliance on volatility as the primary indicator of risk, suggesting it is merely a quantifiable aspect that does not comprehensively encapsulate the essence of risk. He posits that true understanding comes from recognizing the range of possible outcomes and the potential for loss within those. Throughout the discussion, Marks underscores the need for expert judgement over quantitative measures when assessing risk, pointing out the often misleading nature of expected values and probabilities, which don't always reflect reality. He emphasizes the idea of investing with a balanced strategy that prioritizes both potential for gains and defense against negative outcomes. Using metaphors like a traffic system without signs and insurance, Marks illustrates both the counterintuitive nature of risk and the necessity for continuous, mindset-driven risk management. Ultimately, the message is that knowledgeable and conscious risk-taking, underpinned by superior understanding of potential outcomes, is key to successful investing.

Takeaways

  • πŸ” Focus on 'how' to think about risk, not 'what' to think.
  • πŸ›‘οΈ Risk management is key, beyond just chasing returns.
  • πŸ“‰ Risk is not volatility; it's the probability of loss.
  • πŸ”€ Investing involves balancing multiple risks, not just aiming for high returns.
  • 🧩 Risk is partly unquantifiable and heavily reliant on expert judgment.
  • ⚠️ All asset quality doesn't mean less risk if prices are too high.
  • 🎲 Expect varied outcomes in investments, similar to games of chance.
  • πŸ“ˆ High returns do not inherently imply high risk, nor vice versa.
  • 🀝 Expert, qualitative judgment is crucial over quantitative data.
  • πŸš— Think of risk management like insurance - a constant necessity.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Howard Marks introduces the concept of risk, emphasizing that evaluating an investor's skill involves assessing the amount of risk taken to achieve returns. He examines different manager performances relative to market changes, emphasizing the importance of managing downside risks while capturing upside returns.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Marks explains that risk is not simply volatility, as traditionally measured by academics, but rather the probability of loss. He argues that risk cannot be quantified in advance and even post-outcome, raising questions about the nature of risk versus speculative outcomes.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Risk presents in various forms, and avoiding risk can lead to missed opportunities. Marks stresses the importance of understanding the type of risks present, like the risk of exiting the market at the wrong time, which he believes is crucial for successful investing.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Marks delves into philosophical thoughts on risk, referring to Peter Bernstein's insights about the unpredictable nature of risk and quoting GK Chesterton to illustrate how life and markets contain hidden uncertainties that may lead to unforeseen 'tail events.'

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    He discusses the future as a range of possibilities affected by risk, using backgammon analogies to explain that knowing probabilities doesn't equate to certainty of outcomes. This leads to a critique of relying solely on expected value, as real-life outcomes remain unpredictable.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Risk is counterintuitive and perverse, illustrated by the examples of traffic experiments and climbing gear. Marks explains that asset quality does not equate to lower risk; rather, risk is a function of price and perception, using market examples and his own investment experiences.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:36:10

    Marks emphasizes a new perspective on risk-return relationships. He critiques traditional linear models and presents his own model, suggesting successful investing involves understanding the probabilities of various outcomes and managing risk to achieve favorable returns.

Show more

Mind Map

Video Q&A

  • What is the main focus of Howard Marks' discussion?

    The main focus is on understanding and managing risk in investing, emphasizing how to think about risk.

  • Does Howard Marks equate risk with volatility?

    No, Marks argues that risk should not be equated with volatility.

  • What does Howard Marks believe is the true test of an investor's skill?

    Risk management and understanding are the true tests of an investor's skill.

  • How does Howard Marks describe risk at a basic level?

    He describes risk as the probability of loss.

  • What does Howard Marks say about the relationship between risk and return?

    He states that higher potential returns are expected to compensate for perceived higher risks, but they do not necessarily have to deliver those returns.

  • Is risk quantifiable according to Howard Marks?

    Marks believes risk is not quantifiable in advance and even remains partly unquantifiable after the fact.

  • How should risk be managed according to Marks?

    Risk should be managed continuously and with a balanced approach, taking into account the possibility of loss.

  • What is more important than buying a good asset according to Marks?

    Buying an asset at a good price is more important than the asset quality itself.

  • What does Marks say about the importance of expert judgement in risk assessment?

    Marks emphasizes that expert judgment is crucial in risk assessment rather than relying solely on quantitative measures.

  • What metaphor does Howard Marks use to explain risk management?

    He compares investing to driving a car with insurance, highlighting the need for constant preparedness for uncertainties.

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  • 00:00:00
    hi I'm Howard marks and this is how to
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    think about
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    [Music]
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    risk the title of this class is how to
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    think about risk that's an important
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    title not what to think how to think the
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    first question is what is risk risk in
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    my opinion is the ultimate test of an
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    Investor's skill the return alone
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    doesn't tell you how good a job the
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    manager did the key question is you see
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    the return you must ask how much risk
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    did the manager bear to get that return
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    now let's look at this range of managers
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    what we posit is that the market is up
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    10% or down 10% now let's look at some
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    individual managers the first one is up
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    10 when the Market's up 10 and down 10
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    when the Market's down 10 ACC lishes
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    nothing you might as well have invested
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    in an index fund that emulates the
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    performance of the market no skill no
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    value added now let's look at the second
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    one up 20 when the market goes up 10
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    down 20 when the market goes down 10 no
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    skill no value added just a lot of
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    aggressiveness what about this one up
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    five when the Market's up 10 down five
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    when the Market's down 10 again no
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    selection ability no discernment no
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    value added just defensiveness you don't
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    need help in achieving that and you sure
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    shouldn't pay a lot for it but what
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    about the next one he or she is up 15
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    when the Market's up 10 and down 10 when
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    the Market's down 10 so in other words
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    Market type losses on the downside but
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    Superior gains on the upside value added
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    what I call asymmetry does better in the
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    good times than does poorly in the bad
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    times but what about this one and I
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    think this is the most interest I think
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    maybe it characterizes Me Maybe it char
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    izes oak tree to some extent up 10 when
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    the Market's up 10 down five when the
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    Market's down 10 so Market type gains in
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    the good times I personally think that
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    performing with the market when it does
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    well is good enough and that's almost
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    all the time nobody should have to beat
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    the market when it does well but if you
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    can do that and at the same time be
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    ready to decline less when the market
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    has it down spells I think that's
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    accomplishing something very
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    [Music]
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    important I believe that risk is not
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    volatility the academics developing
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    investment Theory largely at the
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    University of Chicago in the early 60s
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    just a couple of years before I got
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    there adopted volatility as their
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    measure of risk I believe they did so
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    largely because volatility is readily
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    quantifiable and nothing else is I think
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    volatility can be an indicator of the
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    presence of risk a symptom if you will
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    but it's not risk itself so if risk is
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    not volatility then what is it and in my
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    opinion and in the real world sense risk
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    is the probability of loss I think this
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    is what most people mean when they say
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    risk and I think that this is what
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    people demand compensation for if
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    they're going to Bear it uh nobody
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    sitting around at Oak Tree says well you
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    know uh we shouldn't make that
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    investment because it might be volatile
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    or uh because it might be volatile we
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    should demand a higher return no they
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    say that about the possibility of loss
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    we're not going to make that investment
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    because the possibility of loss is too
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    high or because of the possibility of
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    loss we're going to demand a risk
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    premium in terms of the return this is
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    risk the possibility of loss now another
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    important question is is risk
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    quantifiable in advance and I believe
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    it's not like most things occurring in
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    the future risk cannot be anything
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    except a matter of opinion I was writing
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    my first memo about risk in 2006 I wrote
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    about my belief that risk is not
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    quantifiable in advance and then I hit
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    the return key and went on to the next
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    section and wrote something I had never
  • 00:04:28
    thought about before
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    my belief that risk is unquantifiable
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    even after the fact and I think this is
  • 00:04:35
    a fascinating topic uh you buy something
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    for a dollar and a year later you sell
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    it for $2 was it
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    risky and the interesting thing is that
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    you can't tell from the outcome a
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    profitable investment may or may not
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    have been risky was it a safe investment
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    that in the case of my example was sure
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    to double or was it a risky investment
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    where you got lucky in terms of the
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    outcome and as I say you can't tell from
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    the outcome the bottom line is to me
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    it's impossible to quantify risk in
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    advance or even in
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    hindsight the possibility of loss is not
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    the only form of risk there are lots of
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    forms of risk my last memo on the
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    general subject it's called risk
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    Revisited again and I talk in there
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    about 24 or 25 different forms of risk
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    some serious some facius some important
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    some less important and obscure but
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    still it comes in many forms the risk of
  • 00:05:45
    missing opportunities is another
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    important risk in other words if you
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    think about it the risk of not taking
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    enough risk another really important
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    form uh of risk I think one of the key
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    risks in investing is the chance of
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    being forced out at the bottom which is
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    a bigger mistake buying at the high and
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    seeing a decline or selling out at the
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    low and missing out on the recovery
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    clearly it's the ladder if you buy at a
  • 00:06:13
    high and you experience a decline if
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    you're able to hold throughout and not
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    lose your nerve the next high is usually
  • 00:06:23
    higher than the last High the fact that
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    you experienced a downward fluctuation
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    might have been uncomfortable for a
  • 00:06:29
    little while
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    but by the time the new high is achieved
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    you're you're you're back to to your
  • 00:06:35
    cost and more but if you sell at the
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    bottom and miss out on the subsequent
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    recovery that means you've gotten off
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    the track of investing and uh may never
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    get back on in my opinion selling at the
  • 00:06:49
    bottom it's the cardinal sin in
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    investing
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    [Music]
  • 00:07:00
    now I want to get a little philosophical
  • 00:07:02
    one of my great Heroes Peter Bernstein
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    probably the best thinker in a
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    philosophic sense and and a real
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    investment Sage who sadly passed away
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    around 2009 one said essentially risk
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    says we don't know what's going to
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    happen we walk every moment into the
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    unknown he said there's a range of
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    outcomes and we don't know where the
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    actual outcome is going to fall within
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    the range and often we don't know what
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    the range is so in other words we have
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    ignorance to varying degrees about what
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    the future holds and it is from this
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    ignorance uh that risk ensues if we knew
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    what was going to happen by definition
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    there would be no risk in the memo that
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    I mentioned before risk Revisited again
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    there's a great quote uh that I got from
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    a Peter Bernstein memo and I thought it
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    was so important that I took it over
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    word for word in my memo it's from GK
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    Chesterton who was a English uh writer
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    and he said the following and I'm going
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    to give it to you word for word uh
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    because it's so important the real
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    trouble with this world of ours is not
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    that it is an unreasonable world or even
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    that it is a reasonable one the
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    commonest kind of trouble is that it is
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    nearly reasonable but not quite life is
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    not an
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    illogicality yet it is a trap for
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    logicians it looks just a little more
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    mathematical and regular than it is its
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    exactitude is obvious but its
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    inexactitude is hidden its wildness lies
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    in weight in other
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    words we know what's likely to
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    happen we know the other things that
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    probably could happen instead
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    we have little appreciation for the
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    things that are highly unlikely to
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    happen but could and these are what we
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    call in modern day terms the uh tail
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    events my friend Rick kanaine once said
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    that 96% of financial history has
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    occurred within two standard deviations
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    but everything interesting has happened
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    outside of two standard deviations
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    that's the wild part
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    [Music]
  • 00:09:32
    so now let me try in a slightly
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    philosophical sense to reflect to you
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    how I think about risk how I think you
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    might consider risk through four basic
  • 00:09:45
    points number one there was a professor
  • 00:09:48
    at the London Business School who said
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    risk means more things can happen then
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    will happen for most events that lie in
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    the future there are a number of things
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    that could occur we don't know which one
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    it will be that's where the risk comes
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    in more things can happen then will
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    happen number two as a result of that
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    the future should be viewed not as a
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    fixed outcome that's destined to happen
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    and capable of being predicted but as a
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    range of possibilities and hopefully
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    because you have some insight into their
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    respective likelihoods as a probability
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    distribution the most likely the less
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    likely the unlikely but not impossible
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    number three it's important to accept
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    that even when you know the
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    probabilities that doesn't mean you know
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    what's going to happen uh this is uh
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    something that I think many people fail
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    to grasp I play a lot of back gamon and
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    a lot of my examples uh on risk and
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    uncertainty uh come from the game of
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    back gamut which is played with a pair
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    of dice and when you roll your pair of
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    dice
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    we know exactly in advance what the
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    probabilities are each die has six sides
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    there are 36 possible combinations of
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    the six sides we know how many of them
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    for example will add up to seven and
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    seven is the most likely single outcome
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    1 16 25 34 43 52 61 there are six
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    possibilities out of the
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    36 that will give you a seven that's the
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    most likely outcome uh six out of 36
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    that's 16.7% probability now what if
  • 00:11:34
    instead you want to know about a six
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    well with a six there are five
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    possibilities five possibilities out of
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    36 that's a little less than a seventh
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    and then when you get down to uh the
  • 00:11:46
    number two is's only one one one one out
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    of 36 and for the number 12 only one 66
  • 00:11:55
    one out of 36 both of those are about a
  • 00:11:57
    3% probability of happening so we know
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    exactly what the probability
  • 00:12:02
    distribution looks like uh uh we know
  • 00:12:05
    what's the most likely the other likely
  • 00:12:08
    possibilities and the unlikely
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    possibilities we still don't know what's
  • 00:12:12
    going to happen so knowing the
  • 00:12:14
    probabilities does not eliminate the
  • 00:12:16
    uncertainty I work with a professor at
  • 00:12:19
    Warden named Chris gsy and the way he
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    put it to me one time we live in the
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    sample not the universe in other words
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    the universe statistics
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    like I just explained for the dice
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    determine the things that could happen
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    and maybe their possibility but we live
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    in the sample we only have one outcome
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    and therein lies the uncertainty a great
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    way to think about this is on Super Bowl
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    morning in 2016 they had a former
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    football player on uh and he said what I
  • 00:12:54
    thought was one of the smartest things
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    about uh probability I had ever heard
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    this game was Denver versus Carolina and
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    Carolina was heavily favored and they
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    asked him who he thought would win and
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    he said the following Carolina wins
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    eight times out of 10 this could be one
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    of the two now this gives you the UN the
  • 00:13:16
    essence of probability and the essence
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    of risk uh most people if they hear that
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    something's 80% likely to happen they
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    say well then I guess we know what's
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    going to happen I guess they might might
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    as well not play the game no 80% likely
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    means that the other team should win one
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    game out of five so have to play the
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    game because we have to figure out which
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    game this will be and that leads to
  • 00:13:42
    number four I take Dimson statement that
  • 00:13:46
    uh risk means more things can happen
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    than will happen and I turn it
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    over even though many things can happen
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    only one will thus the expected value
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    the probability weighted average of the
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    possible outcomes which is the basis on
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    which people make uh many decisions it
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    can be irrelevant they take each outcome
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    they multiply it by the probability they
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    add them up and they get the expected
  • 00:14:13
    outcome and many people will say well
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    we're going to take the course of action
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    that has the highest expected value but
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    sometimes the expected value isn't even
  • 00:14:23
    among the possibilities now this sounds
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    highly counterintuitive but think about
  • 00:14:27
    this let's consider a course of action
  • 00:14:31
    which has four possible outcomes 2 4 6
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    and 8 and let's say that we conclude
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    that each of those four is equally
  • 00:14:41
    likely to happen so what we do is we
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    take each one 2 4 6 8 we multiply it by
  • 00:14:48
    25% the possibility of it happening and
  • 00:14:51
    we add it together and in this case the
  • 00:14:54
    the expected value of 2 468 is five but
  • 00:14:58
    five can can't happen remember I said
  • 00:15:01
    the outcomes can be 2 4 6 and eight so
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    it I'm I'm only going through this to
  • 00:15:06
    show you the possible fallacy of
  • 00:15:08
    expected value there's another problem
  • 00:15:10
    with expected value because even though
  • 00:15:12
    course of action a can have a higher
  • 00:15:15
    expected value than course of action B
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    course of action a may include some
  • 00:15:19
    possibilities that you just can't live
  • 00:15:22
    with maybe course of action a uh
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    includes some remote possibility that
  • 00:15:28
    you lose all youry money and even though
  • 00:15:30
    it's highly unlikely you you may say I
  • 00:15:32
    just don't want to contemplate that so
  • 00:15:34
    you don't take a you take b instead
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    which has a slightly lower expected
  • 00:15:38
    value uh but without the risk of
  • 00:15:47
    Ruin now moving on a little bit to to
  • 00:15:50
    talk about the character of risk I think
  • 00:15:53
    it's interesting to note that risk is
  • 00:15:55
    counterintuitive they did an experiment
  • 00:15:57
    in the town of draon Holland they took
  • 00:16:00
    away all the traffic lights traffic
  • 00:16:02
    signs and Road markings what do you
  • 00:16:05
    think happened to the level of accidents
  • 00:16:07
    and
  • 00:16:08
    fatalities it went down how could it
  • 00:16:11
    possibly have gone down when all the
  • 00:16:14
    road AIDS were gone and the answer is
  • 00:16:16
    people said oh there are no more traffic
  • 00:16:19
    signs traffic lights or Road markings
  • 00:16:22
    I'd better drive more carefully on the
  • 00:16:24
    other hand Jill fredson is uh an expert
  • 00:16:28
    on a avalanches and uh she said that
  • 00:16:32
    better gear is created every year which
  • 00:16:35
    makes it easier and more feasible to to
  • 00:16:39
    climb and yet the risk the number of
  • 00:16:43
    fatalities and accidents in Climbing
  • 00:16:45
    doesn't go down how can that be
  • 00:16:48
    obviously counterintuitive people see
  • 00:16:51
    that better gear is being invented and
  • 00:16:54
    they say Well since we have better gear
  • 00:16:56
    we can do riskier things and the level
  • 00:16:59
    of accidents and fatalities is
  • 00:17:02
    maintained even in in spite of the
  • 00:17:04
    arrival of better gear so if you think
  • 00:17:08
    about those two examples you realize
  • 00:17:10
    that the risk of an activity doesn't
  • 00:17:12
    just lie in the activity in itself but
  • 00:17:15
    importantly in how the participants
  • 00:17:18
    approach it the degree of risk present
  • 00:17:22
    in a
  • 00:17:22
    market or in an investment doesn't come
  • 00:17:26
    just from the market or the investment
  • 00:17:29
    but how people participate in that
  • 00:17:32
    investment and if they conclude that the
  • 00:17:36
    market has become safer they may say
  • 00:17:39
    that that frees them to do riskier
  • 00:17:41
    things and that's why I believe that
  • 00:17:44
    risk is low when investors behave
  • 00:17:48
    prudently and High when they don't just
  • 00:17:51
    as risk is counterintuitive I believe
  • 00:17:53
    that risk is perverse as I said the
  • 00:17:57
    riskiest thing in the world is the
  • 00:17:58
    belief that there's there's no risk a
  • 00:18:00
    high level of risk Consciousness on the
  • 00:18:02
    other hand tends to mitigate risk so
  • 00:18:04
    when people say well that's really risky
  • 00:18:06
    if they take a a cautious approach then
  • 00:18:08
    it becomes safe as an asset declines in
  • 00:18:12
    price most people say oh it's risky look
  • 00:18:14
    how it's falling but with the lower
  • 00:18:17
    price it actually becomes less risky as
  • 00:18:19
    an asset appreciates most people say
  • 00:18:22
    that's a great asset look how well it's
  • 00:18:24
    doing but the rising price makes it
  • 00:18:26
    riskier so again pervert
  • 00:18:29
    and this perversity is one of the main
  • 00:18:31
    things that render most people incapable
  • 00:18:34
    of understanding risk I think it's
  • 00:18:36
    important to grasp a concept risk is
  • 00:18:40
    hidden and risk is deceptive loss is
  • 00:18:44
    what happens when risk the potential for
  • 00:18:48
    loss collides with negative events you
  • 00:18:51
    know Buffett says everything the
  • 00:18:53
    greatest and he said that uh it's only
  • 00:18:55
    when the tide goes out that we find out
  • 00:18:57
    who's been swimming naked
  • 00:18:59
    uh it's only in times of testing that
  • 00:19:02
    investors and their strategies uh are
  • 00:19:05
    examined uh for the risk they really
  • 00:19:08
    held an example of that I wrote in my
  • 00:19:11
    book The most important thing uh those
  • 00:19:14
    of us who live in California as I did at
  • 00:19:16
    the time our houses might contain a
  • 00:19:19
    construction flaw but if all is well
  • 00:19:23
    that flaw sits there for year after year
  • 00:19:25
    and doesn't produce any loss it's only
  • 00:19:29
    when the earthquakes occur that the
  • 00:19:31
    house is tested and the flaws are
  • 00:19:33
    disclosed and the risk the potential for
  • 00:19:36
    loss turns into actual loss so similarly
  • 00:19:41
    an investment can be risky but if it
  • 00:19:43
    only exists in salutary environments it
  • 00:19:47
    may look like a winter for a long time
  • 00:19:50
    and it may look safe for a long time the
  • 00:19:52
    fact that an investment is susceptible
  • 00:19:55
    to a risk that occurs extremely rarely
  • 00:19:58
    uh what I call an improbable disaster
  • 00:20:01
    what Nasim Nicholas TB called The Black
  • 00:20:03
    Swan in his excellent book The
  • 00:20:06
    infrequency of loss can make it appear
  • 00:20:10
    that the investment is safer than it
  • 00:20:12
    really is and of course that's an
  • 00:20:15
    entirely risky uh conclusion so uh the
  • 00:20:19
    infrequency with which uh risk turns
  • 00:20:22
    into loss uh can be deceptive uh and
  • 00:20:25
    cause people to underrate the risk
  • 00:20:27
    involved in an activ
  • 00:20:29
    [Music]
  • 00:20:35
    one of the most important things for
  • 00:20:37
    every investor to learn is that risk is
  • 00:20:40
    not a function of asset quality this too
  • 00:20:43
    sounds counterintuitive there's a belief
  • 00:20:46
    that high quality assets are safe and
  • 00:20:48
    lowquality assets are risky I believe
  • 00:20:51
    quite the opposite a high quality asset
  • 00:20:54
    can be priced so high that it's risky I
  • 00:20:58
    came to to work in this industry in
  • 00:20:59
    September of 1969 the banks at that time
  • 00:21:03
    and I was hired by one of them engaged
  • 00:21:06
    in what was called nifty50 investing
  • 00:21:08
    they invested in what were considered to
  • 00:21:10
    be the 50 best and fastest growing
  • 00:21:12
    companies in America companies so good
  • 00:21:15
    that nothing bad could ever happen and
  • 00:21:18
    there was no price too high for their
  • 00:21:19
    stocks and if you bought those great
  • 00:21:22
    companies the day I got to work in
  • 00:21:24
    September of 1969 and if you held their
  • 00:21:27
    stocks tenaciously for the next five
  • 00:21:29
    years you lost more than 90% of your
  • 00:21:31
    money because the prices paid were just
  • 00:21:34
    too high and unsustainable and roughly
  • 00:21:37
    half of those companies did run into
  • 00:21:40
    serious fundamental problems their
  • 00:21:42
    quality alone or their perceive quality
  • 00:21:45
    did not impart to them the safety that
  • 00:21:48
    people thought it would and in fact
  • 00:21:50
    because people thought they were so safe
  • 00:21:52
    they bid them up to prices which in fact
  • 00:21:54
    made them risky on the other hand a
  • 00:21:57
    lowquality asset can be cheap enough to
  • 00:21:59
    be safe again this seems
  • 00:22:02
    counterintuitive and maybe even perverse
  • 00:22:05
    when I left the world of equities in
  • 00:22:08
    1978 I was asked by City Bank to start
  • 00:22:11
    their activity in high yield bonds and
  • 00:22:14
    now I was investing in the lowest
  • 00:22:16
    quality uh public companies in America
  • 00:22:20
    and making money steadily and safely the
  • 00:22:23
    ju toos of these events taught me an
  • 00:22:26
    important lesson uh that I want to share
  • 00:22:28
    sh with you uh so that you don't have to
  • 00:22:31
    learn it firsthand my conclusion was
  • 00:22:35
    it's not what you buy it's what you pay
  • 00:22:37
    and investment success doesn't come from
  • 00:22:39
    buying good things but from buying
  • 00:22:40
    things well and if you don't know the
  • 00:22:43
    difference you have to study up um there
  • 00:22:47
    are no assets that are so good that they
  • 00:22:51
    can't become overpriced and
  • 00:22:54
    dangerous there are very few assets that
  • 00:22:57
    are so bad that they can't be cheap
  • 00:23:00
    enough to be attractive as Investments
  • 00:23:03
    so this is a a simple concept it sounds
  • 00:23:08
    like to me but I hope you'll spend a lot
  • 00:23:10
    of time thinking about its
  • 00:23:13
    [Music]
  • 00:23:19
    consequences now let's talk for a while
  • 00:23:21
    about the relationship between risk and
  • 00:23:23
    return this is one of the most important
  • 00:23:25
    of all the topics when I got to
  • 00:23:27
    University of Chicago The Chicago School
  • 00:23:30
    of theory with regard to investment had
  • 00:23:32
    just been developed mostly between 62
  • 00:23:35
    and 64 and I arrived in ' 67 and there
  • 00:23:39
    was a graphic that we saw all the time
  • 00:23:43
    it shows uh return on the vertical axis
  • 00:23:46
    risk on the horizontal axis and an
  • 00:23:48
    upward sloping line to the right we call
  • 00:23:51
    that a positive correlation one goes up
  • 00:23:54
    the other goes up as well now most
  • 00:23:56
    people would look at that graphic and
  • 00:23:59
    say well that means two things that uh
  • 00:24:02
    riskier assets have higher returns and
  • 00:24:06
    if you want to make more money the way
  • 00:24:07
    to do it is to take more risk I think
  • 00:24:10
    that's a terrible formulation very
  • 00:24:12
    simply if it were true that riskier
  • 00:24:14
    assets produce higher returns then they
  • 00:24:16
    wouldn't be riskier would they so that
  • 00:24:19
    can't be the right
  • 00:24:20
    explanation what the upward sloping line
  • 00:24:23
    the positive correlation means is that
  • 00:24:26
    Investments that are perceived as being
  • 00:24:28
    risky have to be perceived as offering
  • 00:24:32
    higher returns to induce people to make
  • 00:24:34
    those Investments that makes perfect
  • 00:24:36
    sense the only thing is they don't have
  • 00:24:39
    to deliver and it's from the possibility
  • 00:24:41
    that the projected returns will not be
  • 00:24:44
    delivered that the risk ensues when you
  • 00:24:48
    look at the old graph the linearity of
  • 00:24:51
    the relationship between risk and return
  • 00:24:55
    implies a Dependable relationship and
  • 00:24:58
    I've always felt that that was
  • 00:25:00
    misleading I was never happy uh when I
  • 00:25:03
    got out into the real world and and and
  • 00:25:05
    had to live with the consequences and so
  • 00:25:08
    I developed my own version of that chart
  • 00:25:12
    I took some little bell-shaped
  • 00:25:14
    probability distributions and I turned
  • 00:25:16
    them on their side and I superimpose
  • 00:25:19
    them on the same line it's the same
  • 00:25:21
    underlying line just now with some
  • 00:25:23
    embellishment with the old graph as you
  • 00:25:26
    moved from left to right the risk
  • 00:25:28
    increased and the return increased but
  • 00:25:31
    with this new graft As you move from
  • 00:25:32
    left to right the expected return
  • 00:25:34
    increases just as it did in the old one
  • 00:25:37
    but at the same time the range of
  • 00:25:39
    possibilities becomes wider and the
  • 00:25:41
    worst outcomes become worse that's risk
  • 00:25:45
    this is the way to think about the risk
  • 00:25:48
    return
  • 00:25:49
    [Music]
  • 00:25:54
    relationship so now let's talk a little
  • 00:25:57
    more about how risk should be handled
  • 00:26:00
    what determines investment success and
  • 00:26:03
    the best way I have uh to communicate
  • 00:26:06
    this to you in my opinion is like the
  • 00:26:10
    act of pulling one Lottery Ticket the
  • 00:26:13
    outcome from a bowl full of lottery
  • 00:26:16
    tickets the full range of possible
  • 00:26:19
    outcomes as Dimson said we're going to
  • 00:26:21
    have one outcome there could be many
  • 00:26:24
    outcomes and the outcome that occurs
  • 00:26:26
    never amounts in my opinion
  • 00:26:28
    to anything but one ticket pulled from
  • 00:26:31
    among the many in my opinion Superior
  • 00:26:35
    investors have a better sense for the
  • 00:26:38
    tickets in the bowl for What proportion
  • 00:26:42
    of them are winners and What proportion
  • 00:26:44
    of them are losers than do most other
  • 00:26:46
    people that's what makes them Superior
  • 00:26:49
    and thus they have a better grasp of
  • 00:26:53
    whether it's worth participating in a
  • 00:26:55
    any given Lottery and how heavily to bet
  • 00:26:59
    now how should each of us deal with risk
  • 00:27:03
    I think that risk is best assessed
  • 00:27:05
    through subjective judgment since risk
  • 00:27:07
    cannot be measured gauging it has to be
  • 00:27:09
    the province of subject matter experts
  • 00:27:13
    and I'm clearly uh jist on the subject
  • 00:27:16
    of
  • 00:27:17
    quantification I believe imprecise
  • 00:27:19
    qualitative expert opinion about the
  • 00:27:22
    probability of
  • 00:27:23
    loss is far more useful than precise but
  • 00:27:27
    largely irrelevant numbers concerning
  • 00:27:29
    past and projected volatility so what is
  • 00:27:34
    the essence of risk management Peter
  • 00:27:36
    Bernstein again my my hero he said
  • 00:27:41
    because of the existence of risk things
  • 00:27:44
    are going to be different from what we
  • 00:27:46
    expect from time to time how well are we
  • 00:27:50
    prepared to deal when it's different
  • 00:27:53
    this is a great formulation there's no
  • 00:27:56
    challenge dealing with the events when
  • 00:27:59
    they turn out as we expected the
  • 00:28:01
    question is are we prepared for when
  • 00:28:04
    they don't turn out as expected
  • 00:28:07
    according to Bernstein risk just means
  • 00:28:09
    things are uncertain good things can
  • 00:28:11
    happen as well as bad things but I think
  • 00:28:14
    the definition of risk should emphasize
  • 00:28:17
    the bad things and thus I would say risk
  • 00:28:20
    is the possibility that from the range
  • 00:28:22
    of Uncertain outcomes an unfavorable one
  • 00:28:26
    will be the one that materialize izes it
  • 00:28:29
    can consist of suffering a permanent
  • 00:28:31
    loss of capital when bad things happen
  • 00:28:33
    it can also consist of missing out on
  • 00:28:35
    gains when good things happen these
  • 00:28:37
    things have to be balanced let's say you
  • 00:28:40
    think that if you buy something today
  • 00:28:41
    there's a one-third chance it'll be down
  • 00:28:43
    in six or 12 months what will you do
  • 00:28:46
    about that risk many people will say
  • 00:28:48
    well I just wouldn't buy it but what do
  • 00:28:50
    you do about the other 2third the chance
  • 00:28:53
    that it'll be up in 6 to 12 months how
  • 00:28:55
    do you balance the two risks and you
  • 00:28:57
    know in the real world we can't make
  • 00:28:59
    decisions in one dimension we basically
  • 00:29:02
    have to balance I think that risk is
  • 00:29:04
    something that should be dealt with uh
  • 00:29:06
    constantly continuously not
  • 00:29:09
    sporadically that's why I Bridal when I
  • 00:29:12
    hear this formulation is this a risk on
  • 00:29:14
    Market or a risk off Market remember
  • 00:29:17
    risk produces loss when bad things
  • 00:29:20
    happen and that's when we need risk
  • 00:29:22
    control but I believe we never know when
  • 00:29:25
    bad things will happen and thus when
  • 00:29:28
    risk control will be needed I think the
  • 00:29:30
    right model for thinking about whether
  • 00:29:32
    we need risk control isn't American
  • 00:29:35
    football is soccer in American football
  • 00:29:38
    the team with the ball has the offense
  • 00:29:40
    on the field they have four tries to go
  • 00:29:43
    10 yards if they go 10 yards they get
  • 00:29:45
    four more tries to go 10 more yards and
  • 00:29:47
    if they can keep doing it they
  • 00:29:49
    eventually score but if the team doesn't
  • 00:29:52
    go 10 yards in four tries the referee
  • 00:29:55
    Blows the Whistle the ball goes over to
  • 00:29:58
    to the other team and they try to go 10
  • 00:30:00
    yards in four tries in the opposite
  • 00:30:02
    direction so we have two teams switching
  • 00:30:05
    between offense and defense changing
  • 00:30:07
    Personnel when there are stoppages that
  • 00:30:10
    has nothing to do with the real world
  • 00:30:12
    the right model as I say is what the
  • 00:30:15
    rest of the world calls football the
  • 00:30:18
    same 11 people mostly play the whole
  • 00:30:21
    game nobody tells you when to be on
  • 00:30:23
    offense or defense and there are very
  • 00:30:26
    few stoppages in which to adjust tactics
  • 00:30:29
    and and
  • 00:30:31
    Personnel that's the real world in
  • 00:30:34
    investing one of the key decisions is
  • 00:30:36
    when to be on offense when to be on
  • 00:30:38
    defense how much to allocate to each of
  • 00:30:41
    those but nobody tells you when to do it
  • 00:30:43
    and nobody stops the game to give you
  • 00:30:45
    time I think the best model for
  • 00:30:48
    investing and risk management is
  • 00:30:51
    automobile insurance we all drive we all
  • 00:30:54
    have cars we all have insurance on our
  • 00:30:56
    cars but I don't think of us get to the
  • 00:30:58
    end of a year and say I wish I hadn't
  • 00:31:00
    had Insurance because I didn't have an
  • 00:31:03
    accident we like having insurance for
  • 00:31:05
    the safety it give us regardless of
  • 00:31:08
    whether or not we have an accident in a
  • 00:31:10
    particular year I think about the
  • 00:31:12
    intelligent bearing of risk for profit
  • 00:31:15
    back in 1981 I was interviewed by one of
  • 00:31:18
    the first cable networks and uh the
  • 00:31:21
    reporter said to me how can you invest
  • 00:31:23
    in high yield bonds when you know some
  • 00:31:25
    of them are going to go bankrupt and for
  • 00:31:28
    some reason I was able to come up with
  • 00:31:29
    the right answer on the spot I said the
  • 00:31:32
    most conservative companies in America
  • 00:31:34
    are the life insurance companies how can
  • 00:31:36
    they Ure people's lives when they know
  • 00:31:38
    they're all going to die and I think
  • 00:31:40
    it's an interesting question but the
  • 00:31:41
    life insurance company is number one
  • 00:31:44
    taking a risk that it's aware of they're
  • 00:31:46
    not shocked when somebody dies that's
  • 00:31:48
    the way it goes number two they take a
  • 00:31:51
    risk they can analyze and when I was a
  • 00:31:53
    young man and got my first insurance
  • 00:31:54
    policy they sent a doctor to my house to
  • 00:31:56
    see if I was healthy number three they
  • 00:31:58
    take a risk that can be Diversified so
  • 00:32:01
    no life insurance companies insure just
  • 00:32:04
    smokers or just people who live in on
  • 00:32:07
    the San Andreas fault or just
  • 00:32:09
    skydivers just young people or just old
  • 00:32:11
    people they have a mix a diversified
  • 00:32:13
    portfolio and they take a risk that
  • 00:32:16
    they're well paid to Bear they figure
  • 00:32:18
    out the probability of what they're
  • 00:32:20
    going to have to pay you based on
  • 00:32:21
    Actuarial assumptions they allow some
  • 00:32:24
    windage for the uncertainty and then
  • 00:32:26
    they charge you a premium we do the same
  • 00:32:28
    we take credit risk that we're aware of
  • 00:32:31
    we analyze it we take a risk that we can
  • 00:32:33
    diversify we have large numbers of
  • 00:32:35
    Holdings in every portfolio which
  • 00:32:38
    respond to different factors and it's a
  • 00:32:40
    risk we're well paid to Bear we get
  • 00:32:42
    What's called the risk premium or a
  • 00:32:44
    yield premium to take the risk of
  • 00:32:46
    default so the bottom line is that I
  • 00:32:48
    believe risk is kept under control in
  • 00:32:51
    Superior portfolios that's one of the
  • 00:32:53
    things that Superior investors do highly
  • 00:32:56
    skilled investors assemble portfolio
  • 00:32:58
    that will produce good returns if things
  • 00:32:59
    go as expected and resist declines if
  • 00:33:03
    they don't this asymmetry is in my
  • 00:33:07
    opinion the critical element the
  • 00:33:10
    Cornerstone of superior investing
  • 00:33:12
    assembling a portfolio that incorporates
  • 00:33:14
    risk control along with the potential
  • 00:33:17
    for gains is a great accomplishment but
  • 00:33:20
    it's often a hidden accomplishment
  • 00:33:22
    because risk only turns into loss
  • 00:33:26
    occasionally When the tide go goes out
  • 00:33:29
    but The Prudent investor and hopefully
  • 00:33:32
    his or her clients knows that risk is
  • 00:33:35
    being controlled even at times when it
  • 00:33:38
    doesn't come to the surface so I think
  • 00:33:41
    that risk is something to be managed and
  • 00:33:44
    controlled but not avoided risk control
  • 00:33:48
    is indispensable risk avoidance is not
  • 00:33:51
    an appropriate goal in investing Will
  • 00:33:53
    Rogers said you've got to go out on a
  • 00:33:55
    limb sometimes because that's where the
  • 00:33:57
    fruit is I think and my experience tells
  • 00:34:00
    me from watching others that risk
  • 00:34:03
    avoidance equates to return
  • 00:34:06
    avoidance intelligent bearing of risk
  • 00:34:09
    should be able to enable us to make good
  • 00:34:13
    returns with the risk under
  • 00:34:15
    [Music]
  • 00:34:21
    control so what's the bottom line of all
  • 00:34:25
    that
  • 00:34:26
    foregoing you shouldn't expect to make
  • 00:34:28
    money without bearing risk you shouldn't
  • 00:34:31
    expect to make money just for bearing
  • 00:34:33
    risk risk is best handled on the basis
  • 00:34:36
    of accurate subjective judgments made by
  • 00:34:39
    experienced expert investors who
  • 00:34:42
    emphasize risk
  • 00:34:44
    Consciousness the great challenge in
  • 00:34:46
    investing is to limit uncertainty and
  • 00:34:49
    still maintain substantial potential for
  • 00:34:52
    gains and in conclusion I'll just say
  • 00:34:55
    that outstanding investors are out
  • 00:34:57
    standing for the simple reason that they
  • 00:35:00
    have a
  • 00:35:01
    superior sense for the probability
  • 00:35:04
    distribution that governs future events
  • 00:35:07
    the tickets in the bowl and for whether
  • 00:35:09
    the potential return compensates for the
  • 00:35:13
    risks that lurk in the distribution's
  • 00:35:16
    unattractive left-and tail this is what
  • 00:35:19
    enables them to achieve the asymmetry
  • 00:35:22
    that characterizes Superior investors
  • 00:35:25
    participating strongly in the game GS
  • 00:35:27
    when there are gains and avoiding many
  • 00:35:30
    of the losses when there are losses I
  • 00:35:33
    hope the foregoing discussion will help
  • 00:35:35
    you be among
  • 00:35:37
    [Music]
  • 00:35:56
    them for
Tags
  • risk
  • investment
  • management
  • volatility
  • probability
  • loss
  • returns
  • strategy
  • expert judgement
  • Howard Marks