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okay good afternoon this is Richard Shu
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host of Shu untied today I'm very
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pleased and thrilled to have with me as
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my guest Jake cing who's a partner at
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wtel lipon Jake welcome to the program
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thanks Richard thanks for having me now
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Jake you definitely have one of the more
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unusual undergraduate degrees I have
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come across and so I want to ask you it
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was a looks like a ree in mathematical
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econ but it sounds like it's probably
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mostly math tell me a little bit about
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why you chose that major and and so
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forth yeah sure it's um sort of a hybrid
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between math and you about half math
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half
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economics um when I was growing up I
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always liked math in high school um my
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dad actually was going for a PhD in math
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and ended up dropping out to become a
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corporate lawyer so so I followed a
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similar path um but I was never as as
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hardcore as he was he would be like
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reading math textbooks on on the beach
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on vacations when I was a kid uh I went
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to I went to Brown where you know it's
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sort of like make your own adventure um
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there's not a lot of course requirements
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so that that created flexibility to take
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what you were interested in uh and when
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I was a freshman I took class in
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microeconomics
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uh which I found fascinating and I took
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um I think it was an advanced Calculus
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class which you know that was sort of
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similar to what I've been studying um in
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high school and I discovered this vager
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that was out there that was sort of half
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math uh half economics and uh and and I
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ended up pursuing it it it was a great
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it was a great mix of both yeah well how
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far did your math side of the classes go
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how advanced did you get
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yeah uh it's a good question Advanced
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enough to know it was time to stop um I
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I took um I took linear algebra I took
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differential equations a couple
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statistics and econometric classes and
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then I took um this class real analysis
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which um which was um kind basically
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sort of the first really hardcore pure
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math class where it's just proof based
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yeah and you're essentially proving the
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the theorems that are the Bedrock of
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calculus yeah and and I found that class
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fascinating uh it I did come away with
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it thinking that was as far as I could
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as I could uh continue in pure math but
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it it it also actually in an odd way
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turned me on to um the law in some ways
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because it was a very analytic LLY
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rigorous um course it was probably the
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hardest class I've ever taken in you
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know any level of Education including
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law school you had to prove everything
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you took nothing for granted um and in
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some ways that that there's some
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similarities to um to sort of The
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Logical system that the law that the law
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strives to be um and so I found that to
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be a fascinating class that's that's as
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far as I took math and then on the
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economics side it was um I I took a lot
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of Economics classes they tended to be
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the more kind of quantitative or math
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oriented um classes so a lot of game
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theory a lot of advanced microeconomics
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econometrics TCH CL type classes I take
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it you didn't write any thesis or
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anything like that or any any thesis in
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college I didn't write I don't think I
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wrote one in college um yeah I wrote
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papers in law school but but yeah not in
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college yeah well when did you make the
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cut over to law school or when did you
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decide that you want to go to law
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school yeah it's a it's a good question
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I was um I think it was probably the
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summer after my um junior year of
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college I I spent a summer so I was I
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was interested in math and
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economics um and and but I was also
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interested in the law I took a class uh
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on Law and E economics at Brown and uh
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and I found that fascinating it was
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learning about how the law could impact
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economic ordering Financial transactions
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study things like the co theorem and
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which
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which the theory under the co theorem is
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that in a there are no transaction costs
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or externalities than um than the the
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distribution of legal rights
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um is irrelevant you know to that the
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parties will bargain for the ultimate or
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whatever is the fishing outcome then you
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look at you know how um that may not
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hold and there are transaction costs and
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so the law does in fact affect um
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economic efficiency so that got Meed in
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the law but but I I spent a summer um
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trying out a job in finance and I worked
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at at um what was then Merl Lynch in
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their m&a group uh in Investment Banking
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and it was a great job I had a ton of
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fun the most interesting thing that I
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did though was a defensive profile for a
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for a company that was we were
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evaluating the context of a possible
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hostile takeover offer and I found that
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what I was doing was really more legal
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work than it was kind of traditional
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Finance or Investment Banking work it
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was analyzing the company's Charter and
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bylaws looking at their take take over
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to defenses mapping out sequentially how
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a how a hostile approach might proceed
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and and what the what the responses
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could be to different Avenues of attack
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um so that that project really turned me
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on to um to to law school and then I and
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then I took the elad and decided to go
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to law school right out of college so
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before you made that decision what was
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your career what was your career goal or
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did you have one before
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that I I think at that point I was
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probably too young to really have a have
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a specific career goal in mind but you
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know I I thought um I thought Investment
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Banking would be interesting that you
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know again I'd like Finance I like
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Corporate Finance in college um it
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appealed to sort of the mathematical and
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and economic side of my
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education um
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and that's probably the path that I
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would have gone down had I not had I not
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gone to college uh to law school but uh
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but again after that summer experience I
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sort of decided law school was um was
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the right choice for me did your dad
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help you in that decision did you
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consult with him at all since he I asse
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he had been a corporate lawyer at this
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point in his career yeah yeah he was at
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that point still practicing he's retired
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now but um yeah I did and and he was
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very
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um he's always been very um Sur
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supportive but also not not pushing me
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in any One Direction and I think he he
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he wanted me to explore different career
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paths and he obviously you know spent a
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lot of time with investment bankers and
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many of them are former lawyers
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especially kind his generation that was
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more common um career trajectory to go
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from law to into Investment Banking um
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so I think you know he he was
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encouraging both the trying other things
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and then when I ultimately decided that
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law school um you know made sense he was
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very supportive of that too did you ever
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talk math with your
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dad
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um it's been a long time but uh he we I
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I will I will confess to getting maybe a
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little bit of help from him in that real
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analysis class you know 20 years ago he
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he was at a different level I mean he he
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he has a masters in pure math he was
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yeah he was doing a PhD before he
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dropped out so you know he he was um
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he's kind of like a math freak I was
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just good at math but not exceptional
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yeah um but yeah we would it's been a
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long time but back in the day we we
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would occasionally talk talk proofs yeah
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that's pretty funny what just as the
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side what was do you know what his PhD
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was or what was his what was his field
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of specialty yeah his specialty was uh
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was algebra abstra
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yeah yeah interesting now I think I read
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on your bio you had one of the highest
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gpas or something in your major in your
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college is that is that what GPA was
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that is that record still hold
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today um yeah it was well I had I had a
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4.0 GPA I don't think it's a record
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because I think that other people it's a
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shared record I guess so um so it yeah
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it it probably hasn't been beaten
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because it because
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unless they introduced a different
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grading system it couldn't be beaten but
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I don't think I held it uniquely um and
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you know it was brown so it it's kind of
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like everything was a little wishy-washy
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yeah there probably thousands of
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people who hold it but uh no I like I
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really like school I mean it it I like I
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like law school too
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um I've always just loved uh being a
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student well compared to you know doing
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math and econ what did did you find law
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school you know easy different I mean
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what was your something very easy to
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adjust to or was it kind of difficult at
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first yeah it
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um I I didn't find it easy but but I I
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would say I thought my training was
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actually quite helpful maybe
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counterintuitively for law school and I
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also took history classes and political
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science classes so it's you know I
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didn't only take kind of quantitative
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classes but um I I think there are
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actually a lot of similarities between
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between math and maybe even pure math
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especially and the law and it's not a
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Perfect Analogy by any means but there's
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a
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certain a few respects one just
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Precision I mean Precision is critically
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important in both math and the law right
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in math you know if you you don't get
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any credit in in higher math for getting
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to the right answer if you miss a step
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in the proof you have you really have to
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hit you know your your reasoning and
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your the progression of your logic has
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to be um has to be perfect and you know
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in the law every word matters um the
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process for how you reach a result
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matters you know in a in a negotiation
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you know in um in drafting an agreement
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U so I think the Precision is sort of is
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common between the two
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and and then just this this idea of sort
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of being a logical system I mean you
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know math is all about logic and uh and
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the law strives to be a logical system I
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mean it it breaks down and it and it
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fails in its efforts but you know that
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that is kind of what the law uh aspires
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to and so I think that um just the
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analytical rigor of the two you know I
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think it I think sh a lot of
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similarities in that um and so I think
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the training was helpful obviously
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there's a lot more reading in law school
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than you know than in than in math and
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economics classes so you kind of need to
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get comfortable with with that volume of
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you know of um reading words instead of
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numbers and symbols yeah but uh but I
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yeah it wasn't it was a pretty smooth
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adjustment for me well you've obviously
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had a very successful career as a lawyer
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I take your you're pleased with your
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career decision it was a good decision
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to switch to
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law uh I think it's been the right
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decision for me um you know it's it's
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been a great career so far and you know
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I've got a long ways to go hopefully uh
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but uh yeah and look it's not like I sit
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here you know um accessing my old math
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textbooks but but I do think that some
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of those skills you know have proved
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even directly relevant in my practice I
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mean I do corporate law m&a and it's
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it's not uncommon for you know it's not
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real analysis but but for for
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mathematical issues and financial issues
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to come up in our transactions and
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having some facility and fluency with
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that I think has been very helpful
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whether it's a purchase price adjustment
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provision in a in a contract that can
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get fairly complicated it usually
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converting you know what what might be a
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formula to words in a contract um you
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know or a working capital dispute um you
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know in in certain transactions so I
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think having having that background has
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been has been helpful to me yeah I was
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going to say do you do anything else on
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the side or any other hobbies that maybe
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scratch that mathematical itch for
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you not much to be honest with you
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anymore I mean I um I have
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I have two and a half-year-old twins so
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most of my hobbies have have gone out
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the door for for the last few years um
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we uh I spend most of my free time
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hanging out with them and my and my wife
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yeah totally get it well Jake this has
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been a fascinating conversation I really
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appreciate you're taking the time as a
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fellow science math guy myself it's
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always interesting to hear a story about
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somebody how how they go into law and uh
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yours was especially interesting so
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thank you so much absolutely thanks so
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much for having me this is Richard Shu
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and Jake cing thanks
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