Sandra Gilbert And Susan Gubar: American Women Writers

00:57:51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHKrGCgYkxg

Summary

TLDRThe video is a part of a series titled 'American Stories Inspiration Today,' featuring a discussion with Sandra M. Gilbert and Susan Gubar about their latest book "Still Mad: American Women Writers and the Feminist Imagination." The two literary scholars reflect on the progress and challenges of women from the 1950s to the present, discussing the impact of feminist literature on society and politics in America. They highlight key figures from the feminist movement and how their contributions, along with cultural changes over time, have shaped the feminist landscape today. Throughout the event, numerous influential women writers, politicians, and cultural figures are mentioned to contextualize the current and historical struggles for gender equality, demonstrating both triumphs and the enduring nature of certain challenges women still face in society.

Takeaways

  • πŸ“š The discussion revolves around feminist literature and its cultural impact.
  • πŸ‘©β€πŸŽ“ Sandra M. Gilbert and Susan Gubar lead the conversation.
  • πŸ•°οΈ Focuses on the progression of women's roles from the 1950s to the present.
  • πŸ“– The book "Still Mad" explores these themes extensively.
  • πŸ‘₯ Influential women writers, like Sylvia Plath and Toni Morrison, are discussed.
  • 🎭 Examines feminist imagination and its societal effects.
  • πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡Έ Women's political progress, including figures like Kamala Harris, is highlighted.
  • πŸ’‘ The session underscores ongoing societal barriers for women.
  • πŸ›οΈ Historical and modern feminist figures contribute to the conversation.
  • πŸ“ˆ Despite progress, many challenges from the past remain relevant today.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The discussion begins by highlighting the historical context of feminism and women's progress. The speakers reflect on the journey of women breaking barriers and question whether cultural changes have genuinely occurred, considering ongoing feelings of confusion and rebellion.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    The speakers provide an overview of notable figures and works in the feminist movement towards the late 20th century. They discuss how these figures expanded identity politics and introduced queer theory in response to societal issues, including the AIDS epidemic.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    The narrative progresses to the 21st century, focusing on various authors and public figures who have continued to push feminist ideals and address contemporary issues, including environmental threats and racial injustice, as illustrated through various works and public actions.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    The conversation transitions to significant political events and figures in recent history, expressing how women's political advancements have faced backlash and the intersection of feminism with broader social movements, culminating in Amanda Gorman's impactful poetry.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    The speakers tackle the challenges of historical women's roles in literature and how contemporary women writers have a more public presence, allowing them to be more direct and aggressive in their expression. They highlight ongoing struggles for equality, even amidst the progress.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    A nuanced look at the personal conflicts of 1950s women sheds light on how their ambition clashed with societal expectations. The speakers draw connections between historical and modern feminist literature, emphasizing the lasting difficulty of balancing personal and professional roles for women.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Engaging with audience questions, the speakers discuss the feminist movement's utopian aspirations and the historical rarity of gender-equal societies. They contrast past imagined societies with modern political progress, emphasizing the ongoing journey toward full equality.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Further examination of literary connections underscores how modern feminist writers are influenced by historical figures, illustrating how past and present interconnect in the struggle for gender equality, especially in political spheres.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    Delving into themes of grief in feminist literature highlights the personal nature of women's writings on loss, contrasting them with traditional male expressions, and discussing the role of emotion in feminist texts.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    The exploration of genre innovation in feminist literature underscores how modern authors, especially in graphic novels and transgender narratives, are redefining feminist dialogue and reaching broader audiences through creative means.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:57:51

    Concluding thoughts focus on the evolution of feminist thought, particularly in collaboration and literary voice, as well as acknowledging the vital contributions of women of color in shaping the feminist literary tradition. The speakers express ongoing challenges and hope for the future.

Show more

Mind Map

Video Q&A

  • Who are the main speakers in the video?

    Sandra M. Gilbert and Susan Gubar, literary scholars and co-authors.

  • What is the main focus of the video?

    The evolution of feminist literature and women's roles in society from the 1950s to present.

  • What book is discussed during the event?

    "Still Mad: American Women Writers and the Feminist Imagination" by Sandra M. Gilbert and Susan Gubar.

  • What era do the speakers primarily discuss in feminist history?

    From the 1950s through the present, encompassing the second wave of feminism.

  • How do the speakers view the progress made by women in society?

    They acknowledge significant progress but highlight ongoing challenges and societal barriers.

  • What themes are explored in the speakers' book?

    Feminist imagination, literature's impact on gender issues, and cultural changes over time.

  • What notable example of feminist literature is repeatedly mentioned?

    "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood.

  • How do the speakers interpret the second wave of feminism?

    As a coherent movement that has greatly influenced but not completely achieved gender equality.

  • According to the speakers, which notable public figure exemplifies modern feminism?

    Kamala Harris, for her historic role as Vice President of the United States.

  • What historical aspects influence the speakers' examination of feminism?

    They look at the relationships between past women writers and the current feminist landscape.

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  • 00:00:00
    mantras of bygone day still ringing our
  • 00:00:02
    ears we've come a long way professor
  • 00:00:05
    we're shattering glass ceilings we can
  • 00:00:07
    have it all we're leaning in and the
  • 00:00:10
    culture's changing
  • 00:00:11
    but is the culture really changing if it
  • 00:00:14
    is why are we and so many of our friends
  • 00:00:16
    still mad
  • 00:00:17
    matt is in the sense of enraged matters
  • 00:00:20
    in the sense of madden confused or
  • 00:00:24
    rebellious
  • 00:00:25
    maybe if you come a long way you
  • 00:00:27
    encounter territorial backlash
  • 00:00:29
    maybe if you shatter glass ceilings you
  • 00:00:31
    have to walk on broken glass
  • 00:00:34
    maybe if you lean in you topple over
  • 00:00:37
    [Music]
  • 00:00:42
    thanks for joining this event in the
  • 00:00:43
    series american stories inspiration
  • 00:00:46
    today presented by american ancestors
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    new england historic genealogical
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    society the boston public library porter
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    square books and the gbh forum network
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    all of us behind the scenes are
  • 00:00:58
    delighted you're with us tonight in the
  • 00:01:00
    land of history looking at women and
  • 00:01:03
    literature america from a female
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    perspective
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    on your screen is the schedule for our
  • 00:01:09
    hour-long event featuring professors
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    sandra m gilbert and susan gubar with
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    their just released book still mad
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    american women writers and the feminist
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    imagination turning quickly to
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    introductions of our featured writers
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    sandra m gilbert is a distinguished
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    literary critic poet and professor
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    emerita at the university of california
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    davis she is joining us tonight from
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    berkeley california professor gilbert
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    most recently published a collection of
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    poems called judgment day with susan
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    gubar she co-authored the mad woman in
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    the attic a finalist for the pulitzer
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    prize in 1980 my co-host christian will
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    share more about tonight's authors uh
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    kristen over to you
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    thank you margaret good to be here with
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    you and with david and with our partners
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    at the gbh forum network hello and
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    welcome i'm kristen maddy from the
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    boston public library i'd like to share
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    just a quick bit of information about
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    professor susan bubar susan gubar is an
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    acclaimed memoirist literary critic and
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    professor emerita at indiana university
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    and the author most recently of late
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    life love a memoir
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    in addition to being the co-author of
  • 00:02:25
    the mad woman in the attic as margaret
  • 00:02:27
    mentioned she along with professor
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    sandra gilbert co-edited the norton
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    anthology of literature by women
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    in 2012 the pair were awarded the ivan
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    sandro lifetime achievement award by the
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    national book critic circle
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    professor gubar is coming to us tonight
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    from bloomington indiana we'll welcome
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    them both in in a moment we're so glad
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    they're here with us margaret back to
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    you
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    moving right along sandra and susan
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    again it is such an honor to welcome you
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    to our humble series here in boston and
  • 00:02:59
    cambridge um you are superstars in the
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    academic world and among all of us who
  • 00:03:04
    thoughtfully read literature
  • 00:03:06
    particularly women's literature
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    we can't wait to hear from you over to
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    you for some history about your work
  • 00:03:11
    together and american women writers
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    thank you so very much for having us for
  • 00:03:18
    inviting us it feels kind of mystic too
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    during the last two decades of the 20th
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    century the work of andrew andrea
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    dwarken on your left gloria anzaldua in
  • 00:10:36
    the center and toni morrison on the
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    right elaborated upon identity politics
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    transnationalism
  • 00:10:44
    and intersectionality as did adrian rich
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    dwarken in her battle against
  • 00:10:49
    pornography
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    fans will do it in the concept of
  • 00:10:52
    mestiza consciousness morrison in her
  • 00:10:55
    prize-winning novel beloved as well as
  • 00:10:58
    her critical publications on race and
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    gender and rich in essays and poems
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    about being part jewish or split at the
  • 00:11:06
    root
  • 00:11:08
    by the 90s feminist academics like eve
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    sedgwick and judith butler were
  • 00:11:13
    responding to the homophobia fueled by
  • 00:11:16
    the aids epidemic to enlist feminists in
  • 00:11:19
    defending the rights of gay men
  • 00:11:22
    in the process they generated queer
  • 00:11:24
    theory as well as much of the language
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    we now use about non-binary genderqueer
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    or transgender people
  • 00:11:34
    in the same decade the poet anne carson
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    dramatized the painful engendering of
  • 00:11:39
    erotic romance while postmodern
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    entertainers think of madonna and
  • 00:11:44
    transsexual authors for instance leslie
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    feinberg and kate bornstein sought to
  • 00:11:50
    dismantle outbound gender binaries but
  • 00:11:53
    by the end of the 90s feminists radical
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    liberal straight gay black chicano
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    postcolonial post-structuralist
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    post-modernist were splintered in an
  • 00:12:03
    american culture that lumped them all
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    together and demonized them as in the
  • 00:12:07
    infamous words of rush limp for
  • 00:12:10
    feminazis
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    not pictured here are the women who
  • 00:12:13
    joined in this backlash against feminism
  • 00:12:17
    so it's a real relief to land in the
  • 00:12:19
    21st century with alice and bechtel and
  • 00:12:22
    eve ensler who now calls herself v
  • 00:12:26
    in her graphic novels fun home and are
  • 00:12:28
    you my mother
  • 00:12:30
    bechtel explores the impact of the
  • 00:12:32
    second wave on parents born before it
  • 00:12:35
    and daughters born after it
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    in multiple performances of her
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    celebrated plague the vagina monologues
  • 00:12:43
    as in her subsequent global campaign one
  • 00:12:45
    million rising enzler or v sought to
  • 00:12:48
    raise consciousness about ongoing
  • 00:12:51
    violence against women
  • 00:12:53
    in 2008 susan stryker brought out her
  • 00:12:57
    transgender history and in 2016
  • 00:13:00
    maggie nelson
  • 00:13:02
    maggie nelson's the argonauts won the
  • 00:13:03
    national critics circle award both
  • 00:13:06
    reflect the rise of transgender studies
  • 00:13:09
    and the prominence of trans as well as
  • 00:13:11
    non-binary advocates
  • 00:13:16
    at the same time feminist writers were
  • 00:13:19
    aligning themselves with activists
  • 00:13:20
    against ongoing racial injustice and
  • 00:13:23
    ongoing environmental threats to the
  • 00:13:25
    planet claudia rankin's citizen makes
  • 00:13:28
    black lives matter while n.k jemisin's
  • 00:13:31
    broken earth trilogy describes the
  • 00:13:34
    suffering inflicted by cataclysmic
  • 00:13:36
    climate changes like what we're seeing
  • 00:13:38
    now after the acceleration of global
  • 00:13:40
    warming
  • 00:13:41
    as the metoo movement evolved patricia
  • 00:13:44
    lockwood's memoir priest daddy and
  • 00:13:46
    rebecca solman's essays protested what
  • 00:13:49
    sonar called mansplaining in a society
  • 00:13:52
    that continued to be ruled by patriarchs
  • 00:13:54
    often vicious in their subjugation of
  • 00:13:56
    women
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    beyonce is probably the most famous
  • 00:14:01
    example
  • 00:14:02
    of the growing impact of feminism on
  • 00:14:04
    american popular culture today
  • 00:14:07
    especially in her movie homecoming which
  • 00:14:09
    repeatedly quotes audrey lord tony
  • 00:14:11
    morrison and other pioneers of black
  • 00:14:14
    feminism
  • 00:14:16
    also a celebrity margaret atwood whose
  • 00:14:18
    handmaid's tale was reinvented as a tv
  • 00:14:21
    series at the start of the trump
  • 00:14:23
    administration
  • 00:14:24
    composed its hopeful sequel the
  • 00:14:26
    testaments to suggest that sisterhood is
  • 00:14:29
    still powerful enough to bring about a
  • 00:14:32
    better world
  • 00:14:33
    the feminist imagination continues to
  • 00:14:36
    rely on dystopian and utopian fantasies
  • 00:14:42
    while the second wave was going through
  • 00:14:44
    a revival in the 21st century with such
  • 00:14:47
    political figures as alexandria arcasia
  • 00:14:50
    cortes and stacy abrams herself a
  • 00:14:52
    novelist by the way
  • 00:14:54
    many were they were organizing the
  • 00:14:57
    disenfranchised to secure their rights
  • 00:14:59
    under the law
  • 00:15:02
    and they were doing this while nancy
  • 00:15:04
    pelosi was the most powerful woman in
  • 00:15:07
    american politics second in line of
  • 00:15:09
    succession to the presidency like many
  • 00:15:12
    of her colleagues pelosi wore a white
  • 00:15:14
    suit when she tore up trump's state of
  • 00:15:17
    the union speech before television
  • 00:15:19
    cameras to honor the white-clad
  • 00:15:21
    suffragists who fueled her anger and
  • 00:15:24
    paved the path to rebellion
  • 00:15:27
    after the shocking defeat of hillary
  • 00:15:29
    clinton in 2016 it was especially
  • 00:15:31
    wonderful to celebrate the triumph of
  • 00:15:33
    vice president kamala harris in 2020 the
  • 00:15:36
    first woman to rise to such prominence
  • 00:15:39
    as well as first lady dr jill biden the
  • 00:15:42
    first first lady to continue pursuing a
  • 00:15:45
    professional career out of the white
  • 00:15:47
    house
  • 00:15:48
    of course there was backlash against
  • 00:15:50
    them all most shockingly on january 6
  • 00:15:54
    when toxic masculinity and proto-fascism
  • 00:15:58
    raged through washington dc
  • 00:16:01
    did the glass ceilings feminists had
  • 00:16:03
    shattered issue in the broken windows of
  • 00:16:05
    the capitol
  • 00:16:07
    will mad women
  • 00:16:08
    angry women always spawn mad men
  • 00:16:12
    we managed to evade such a gloomy
  • 00:16:14
    conclusion when 22 year old
  • 00:16:16
    african-american
  • 00:16:18
    african-american amanda gorman recited a
  • 00:16:21
    poem on the inaugural stage
  • 00:16:23
    we will not be turned around she
  • 00:16:25
    declared or interrupted by intimidation
  • 00:16:30
    all the women of the feminist movement
  • 00:16:33
    who met marched struggled and brought a
  • 00:16:36
    new order into being help teach her
  • 00:16:38
    those words and now would echo them
  • 00:16:42
    so margaret and kristen i gather you
  • 00:16:44
    have some questions and we look forward
  • 00:16:46
    to hearing them
  • 00:16:48
    we uh we have so many questions i hope
  • 00:16:50
    we can squeeze them all in and we're
  • 00:16:52
    going to work very hard at that um that
  • 00:16:54
    was really a tremendous review of
  • 00:16:57
    influential american women really
  • 00:16:59
    enjoyed your powerpoint and you uh most
  • 00:17:01
    of them writers but you slipped in so
  • 00:17:03
    many others the powerful beyonce um
  • 00:17:06
    among the writers there we have stuff
  • 00:17:08
    studied all of us so many of their works
  • 00:17:11
    um we've read and re-read them
  • 00:17:14
    you make me want to go back and read
  • 00:17:15
    more for sure um i really enjoyed your
  • 00:17:19
    book still mad um i it's highlighted and
  • 00:17:22
    dog-eared and i know everybody in the
  • 00:17:24
    audience is going to do the same uh one
  • 00:17:26
    of them
  • 00:17:27
    it's really
  • 00:17:28
    a treasure
  • 00:17:29
    thank you thank thank you for making
  • 00:17:31
    that effort and doing that um again and
  • 00:17:34
    we want you to do it again in 20 years
  • 00:17:35
    so we're going to stick around for that
  • 00:17:37
    please
  • 00:17:39
    keeping on right yes please please you
  • 00:17:42
    of all people um one of the many things
  • 00:17:44
    that struck me about it though was um
  • 00:17:47
    that you really do go back in time and
  • 00:17:49
    refer back to a lot of other women
  • 00:17:51
    writers um in the past um emily bronte
  • 00:17:54
    born in 1818 sarah orange jewett born in
  • 00:17:58
    1849 charlotte perkins gilman gertrude
  • 00:18:00
    stein virginia woolf who was so very
  • 00:18:03
    critical of victorian england i know a
  • 00:18:05
    lot of that is in the mad women in the
  • 00:18:07
    attic but can you tell me how these
  • 00:18:09
    women writers america
  • 00:18:11
    connect to the american women writers
  • 00:18:13
    that you are talking about in your
  • 00:18:15
    presentation and in the book you really
  • 00:18:17
    go through time back and forth
  • 00:18:19
    well as virginia woolf put it women we
  • 00:18:22
    think through our four mothers when we
  • 00:18:25
    are writers and i think many of these
  • 00:18:27
    women writers were thinking through
  • 00:18:28
    these form for their foremothers uh ann
  • 00:18:30
    carson for example was obsessed with
  • 00:18:33
    emily bronte in her brilliant poem the
  • 00:18:35
    glass essay
  • 00:18:36
    and uh i
  • 00:18:38
    i personally have a theory that some of
  • 00:18:40
    james tiptree's work was was really a
  • 00:18:43
    riff on charlotte perkins gilman's
  • 00:18:44
    utopian herland
  • 00:18:47
    um
  • 00:18:48
    and i know that susan has a lot of
  • 00:18:50
    thoughts yeah alison bechtel
  • 00:18:52
    well alison bechtel is definitely
  • 00:18:54
    thinking back through her literary
  • 00:18:56
    mother virginia woolf
  • 00:18:58
    um in
  • 00:18:59
    a lot of her graphics she draws pictures
  • 00:19:02
    of to the lighthouse and of maps that
  • 00:19:04
    wolf herself drew
  • 00:19:06
    um
  • 00:19:08
    on the structure of of to the lighthouse
  • 00:19:10
    allison bechtel who created the bechtel
  • 00:19:13
    list
  • 00:19:14
    um which is a a test with
  • 00:19:17
    not really whether a movie is feminist
  • 00:19:19
    but whether it's friendly to women a
  • 00:19:21
    movie has to have two women talking to
  • 00:19:23
    each other about something other than a
  • 00:19:26
    man that's the bechtel list and she gets
  • 00:19:28
    that idea i'm sure from from uh virginia
  • 00:19:32
    woolf who basically said that we need
  • 00:19:34
    more stories about two women working
  • 00:19:36
    together in a laboratory
  • 00:19:38
    so they are thinking back as sanji said
  • 00:19:41
    through their precursors through their
  • 00:19:43
    ancestors
  • 00:19:45
    and they find enormous energy in the
  • 00:19:47
    earlier texts so that for example one
  • 00:19:49
    last example claudia rankine
  • 00:19:52
    is writing citizen in the 21st century
  • 00:19:55
    in a dialogue with zora neale hurston
  • 00:19:57
    who produced her work in 20s
  • 00:20:00
    right and even and even judy chicago who
  • 00:20:02
    was a who was an artist
  • 00:20:04
    and not a writer it materializes this in
  • 00:20:08
    the in the dinner party with all of
  • 00:20:09
    those plates representing women for all
  • 00:20:11
    the criticism that was leveled at her
  • 00:20:14
    including a plate on emily dickinson
  • 00:20:16
    right it wasn't emily dickinson played i
  • 00:20:18
    mean i personally don't like the design
  • 00:20:20
    of it but there wasn't emily dickinson
  • 00:20:22
    played and there were a number of you
  • 00:20:24
    know
  • 00:20:25
    important women plates in the in the in
  • 00:20:28
    the dinner party there was a sojourner
  • 00:20:30
    truth play
  • 00:20:31
    which is problematic
  • 00:20:33
    did you say who adrian rich
  • 00:20:36
    who does adrian rich think of as her
  • 00:20:37
    mother do you think i mean you have a
  • 00:20:39
    quote here that she was enraged by
  • 00:20:41
    history and that's of course you know
  • 00:20:43
    maybe history with a big age not you
  • 00:20:46
    know women's history but did she look
  • 00:20:48
    back to anybody addressing she does in a
  • 00:20:50
    lot of her poems she looks back a lot to
  • 00:20:52
    mary wollstonecraft and she also looks
  • 00:20:54
    back to emily dickinson
  • 00:20:56
    very much so and she looks back to
  • 00:20:58
    charlotte bronte yeah she wrote a
  • 00:21:00
    brilliant essay about charlotte bronte
  • 00:21:02
    also like virginia woolf she was very
  • 00:21:04
    very interested in education for women
  • 00:21:06
    so she wrote an essay on women's college
  • 00:21:09
    just the way a room of one's own is a
  • 00:21:11
    meditation on what it would mean to have
  • 00:21:12
    a college for women
  • 00:21:15
    that's wonderful well we have david
  • 00:21:16
    coming on here with a question um any
  • 00:21:18
    moment uh and he's gonna take us even
  • 00:21:21
    further back into history um david go
  • 00:21:23
    ahead welcome sure thank you um i'm
  • 00:21:26
    honored to to be able to ask a question
  • 00:21:28
    um the 19th century women writers were
  • 00:21:32
    much more politically and culturally
  • 00:21:34
    invisible
  • 00:21:35
    than their male counterparts and and you
  • 00:21:38
    talk a lot in mad women in the attic is
  • 00:21:41
    is that they wrote because writing was
  • 00:21:43
    literally the only way they had to get
  • 00:21:45
    their word out they weren't they weren't
  • 00:21:47
    public figures uh the women in this book
  • 00:21:51
    uh by contrast um while some of them are
  • 00:21:54
    politicians most of them
  • 00:21:57
    were not
  • 00:21:59
    but they were able to be very active and
  • 00:22:01
    public and have forum for their ideas
  • 00:22:04
    and their arguments um so did that i'm
  • 00:22:07
    curious two things one did that make
  • 00:22:09
    writing less important as a tool for
  • 00:22:12
    protest
  • 00:22:13
    uh and two um did it when they did write
  • 00:22:16
    did it make them
  • 00:22:18
    uh able to use literature as more
  • 00:22:20
    directly and aggressively uh to make
  • 00:22:23
    their to to uh vent their uh rage and uh
  • 00:22:28
    then then the women in the 19th century
  • 00:22:30
    who had to be more subtle and indirect
  • 00:22:32
    in the way that they used writing
  • 00:22:34
    absolutely women in the 20s
  • 00:22:36
    sorry
  • 00:22:37
    very good question because the 19th
  • 00:22:40
    century
  • 00:22:41
    um the anger we say is basically in the
  • 00:22:44
    attic it's concealed inside the attic
  • 00:22:47
    and it has to be decoded in in order to
  • 00:22:50
    make it
  • 00:22:51
    visible because there's so much anxiety
  • 00:22:54
    about talking about anger these women
  • 00:22:56
    who were writing as you say were in the
  • 00:22:58
    private sphere whereas the 20th century
  • 00:23:01
    women are in the public sphere as
  • 00:23:03
    journalists as singers as playwrights
  • 00:23:05
    they're outside the home as well as
  • 00:23:07
    inside the home well well even as poets
  • 00:23:11
    uh women had women were on stage i mean
  • 00:23:14
    andrea and rich did countless readings
  • 00:23:16
    sylvia plath read for the for the bbc
  • 00:23:18
    they recorded in the harvard library um
  • 00:23:21
    you know these women were very public
  • 00:23:23
    but also i just want to suggest that one
  • 00:23:26
    of the distinctions between the mad
  • 00:23:28
    woman and still mad is that the mad
  • 00:23:30
    woman is close readings of texts that
  • 00:23:32
    were very intricately layered and often
  • 00:23:35
    full of secrets
  • 00:23:36
    while still mad is more like a political
  • 00:23:39
    analysis and a sweeping historical
  • 00:23:42
    account of
  • 00:23:44
    how these women both in the public and
  • 00:23:46
    the private sphere made their voices
  • 00:23:48
    heard
  • 00:23:50
    and that's how we begin with a
  • 00:23:52
    politician with hillary clinton and we
  • 00:23:53
    end with the politician
  • 00:23:55
    uh nancy pelosi right so your point
  • 00:23:58
    about anger being so much more direct it
  • 00:24:00
    doesn't need to be un decoded by us it's
  • 00:24:04
    it's right there so we're interested in
  • 00:24:07
    how do we trace what the angle was aimed
  • 00:24:10
    at and how they coped with it and how it
  • 00:24:12
    shaped the political movement namely the
  • 00:24:14
    second wave of feminism you could say
  • 00:24:16
    that anger took the escalator down out
  • 00:24:19
    of the attic or went down the stairs and
  • 00:24:21
    out into the parlor and then out into
  • 00:24:23
    the front yard and then across the
  • 00:24:25
    street and into the city into the polis
  • 00:24:31
    good questions great question
  • 00:24:34
    uh i want to move forward in time a
  • 00:24:36
    little bit from there um
  • 00:24:38
    to
  • 00:24:39
    you there's a line in your book that
  • 00:24:41
    talks about quote the extraordinary
  • 00:24:43
    confusion of the 1950s for young women
  • 00:24:46
    at that time the conformity of that
  • 00:24:49
    decade i'm so curious about if you could
  • 00:24:52
    just talk a little bit more about what
  • 00:24:53
    it did to the literature and to the
  • 00:24:56
    women um of that time you called sylvia
  • 00:24:58
    plath the
  • 00:24:59
    oxymoron which i loved
  • 00:25:03
    so tell us
  • 00:25:05
    in a sense an incarnation of the
  • 00:25:08
    problems of the 50s she was she was
  • 00:25:10
    brought up to be as ambitious as a boy
  • 00:25:13
    um she had a brother who was was not
  • 00:25:16
    valued above her she was
  • 00:25:20
    was encouraged at smith college to to
  • 00:25:23
    follow her star
  • 00:25:24
    she was ferociously ambitious but her
  • 00:25:28
    ferocious ambition also included an
  • 00:25:31
    ambition to be feminine and to be
  • 00:25:33
    successful as a girl and i mean as a
  • 00:25:36
    girl as a girl dating going being
  • 00:25:38
    invited to the yale junior prom for
  • 00:25:40
    example earlier she made paper dolls of
  • 00:25:43
    you know fantastic figures dressed up
  • 00:25:45
    like vogue models
  • 00:25:47
    and the the the the oxymoronic nature of
  • 00:25:50
    that the way in which she was both
  • 00:25:52
    feminine and feminist without even
  • 00:25:55
    knowing the word feminism
  • 00:25:57
    was in a way
  • 00:25:59
    it fuels her greatest poems like daddy
  • 00:26:02
    for example the rage at the patriarchy
  • 00:26:05
    but it also in a way destroyed her
  • 00:26:07
    because when her marriage fell apart she
  • 00:26:10
    had wanted to be a triple threat woman
  • 00:26:11
    and now she had failed
  • 00:26:13
    and one of the things that she was
  • 00:26:14
    brought up to believe she should be
  • 00:26:16
    successful at marriage
  • 00:26:18
    so
  • 00:26:20
    i think the 50s is the place where we
  • 00:26:22
    see the contradiction between ambition
  • 00:26:25
    and artistry on the one hand
  • 00:26:27
    and
  • 00:26:29
    the desire for a conventional life a
  • 00:26:32
    husband uh children
  • 00:26:34
    and the need to want to have it both
  • 00:26:37
    want to have it all and how difficult
  • 00:26:39
    that is in the 50s given the structure
  • 00:26:41
    of the culture and how difficult
  • 00:26:43
    unfortunately it still is today for many
  • 00:26:45
    women
  • 00:26:48
    yeah you mentioned
  • 00:26:49
    the cauldron of the 50s in the cauldron
  • 00:26:52
    of the 50s was brewing the 1970s
  • 00:26:55
    uh which is just such a great um visual
  • 00:26:59
    uh
  • 00:27:00
    so i think we're going to start to move
  • 00:27:02
    on to some other questions um kristen i
  • 00:27:04
    think you're there and um
  • 00:27:07
    ladies thank you so much and i'll be
  • 00:27:08
    back and kristen over to you for some
  • 00:27:11
    more more questioning great thank you so
  • 00:27:13
    much margaret and now we're going to
  • 00:27:15
    start to hear from some of our audience
  • 00:27:17
    members we got a lot of great questions
  • 00:27:19
    with the registration form and chris
  • 00:27:22
    stan from
  • 00:27:23
    oregon asks are women positioned to
  • 00:27:26
    transform civilization or have we been
  • 00:27:29
    so disempowered for so long
  • 00:27:32
    that we have no control so i'll toss
  • 00:27:34
    that over to both of you to to answer
  • 00:27:37
    that and then we'll hear from some more
  • 00:27:39
    audience members
  • 00:27:40
    i think in a way that question goes to
  • 00:27:42
    the heart of the feminist project
  • 00:27:45
    because what feminists want to do
  • 00:27:47
    is to transform culture so that women
  • 00:27:50
    are no longer subordinated
  • 00:27:52
    and subjugated by men
  • 00:27:54
    one of the one of the central strains in
  • 00:27:56
    feminist writing is utopian and
  • 00:27:58
    dystopian writing dystopias often
  • 00:28:01
    reflect the world that we live in or
  • 00:28:03
    make it seem even worse like in the
  • 00:28:05
    handmaid's tale
  • 00:28:06
    and utopias uh such as of um charlotte
  • 00:28:10
    perkins gilman's herland or james
  • 00:28:12
    tiptree junior's
  • 00:28:14
    houston houston do you hear
  • 00:28:16
    i really imagine a world that is
  • 00:28:19
    successfully empowered by women and
  • 00:28:22
    powered by women
  • 00:28:23
    so um
  • 00:28:25
    the feminist project is really to do
  • 00:28:27
    that it is to transform the world so
  • 00:28:30
    that women
  • 00:28:31
    are equally powerful
  • 00:28:34
    so that women can
  • 00:28:36
    enroll so that women can rule the world
  • 00:28:39
    or can co-rule the world with men
  • 00:28:42
    you want to comment on that susan
  • 00:28:44
    because i think that's certainly an
  • 00:28:45
    important part of the feminist
  • 00:28:47
    imagination
  • 00:28:48
    um i think in politics and struggle of
  • 00:28:52
    the second wave many women
  • 00:28:54
    don't want to rule the world and they
  • 00:28:57
    don't want to be saviors and they don't
  • 00:28:59
    but they do want equality
  • 00:29:02
    and that's all i'm saying they want to
  • 00:29:03
    co-rule the world yeah
  • 00:29:05
    and they
  • 00:29:06
    and they want i i think when when i when
  • 00:29:09
    i hear you know i i just think that many
  • 00:29:12
    some women of course have always
  • 00:29:14
    believed that there are goddesses or
  • 00:29:16
    that there are saviors nobody has used
  • 00:29:18
    the word savior here
  • 00:29:19
    yeah
  • 00:29:20
    but i think in the imagination of
  • 00:29:22
    certainly in the literary imagination we
  • 00:29:24
    see the importance of
  • 00:29:26
    imagining a best place a utopia and a
  • 00:29:30
    worst place
  • 00:29:32
    and the worst place has everything to do
  • 00:29:34
    in the feminist imagination with male
  • 00:29:36
    domination with tyranny with
  • 00:29:38
    subordination and with violence against
  • 00:29:40
    women i totally agree with that
  • 00:29:44
    thank you for that
  • 00:29:46
    we have welcomed some of our audience
  • 00:29:49
    members here to join us around on the
  • 00:29:51
    virtual stage and i'd like to invite
  • 00:29:54
    camille to pose her first question
  • 00:29:57
    so camille over to you and thank you for
  • 00:30:00
    your question
  • 00:30:05
    thank you thanks for this presentation i
  • 00:30:08
    like your idea of not dominating but
  • 00:30:10
    when do you see full equality
  • 00:30:14
    justice ginsburg said it would be when
  • 00:30:17
    there were nine women on the supreme
  • 00:30:19
    court
  • 00:30:20
    so how do you see that
  • 00:30:22
    and thank you again for your
  • 00:30:24
    presentation and for inviting us
  • 00:30:27
    i was just going to say that i was just
  • 00:30:29
    going to vote ginsburg on nine women on
  • 00:30:31
    the supreme court but i would also say
  • 00:30:34
    when kamala harris would not be vice
  • 00:30:36
    president but president
  • 00:30:38
    i mean ours is one of the one of the
  • 00:30:40
    only industrial uh countries or one of
  • 00:30:42
    one of the
  • 00:30:43
    you know
  • 00:30:44
    one of the only countries that has not
  • 00:30:46
    ever had a woman later
  • 00:30:49
    many many other countries have women
  • 00:30:51
    presidents just the way other countries
  • 00:30:53
    have health care systems right so it
  • 00:30:55
    would be very nice if our country could
  • 00:30:57
    have uh a woman at the at the top of the
  • 00:31:00
    pyramid not to rule and dominate but to
  • 00:31:03
    join in the ruling of the world at the
  • 00:31:06
    moment there are you know like how many
  • 00:31:08
    women in the senate
  • 00:31:10
    and and
  • 00:31:11
    susan remember the the problem about
  • 00:31:13
    bathrooms for women and enough bathrooms
  • 00:31:15
    they didn't have enough bathrooms when
  • 00:31:17
    women started going to the senate there
  • 00:31:18
    was like no women's bathroom in the
  • 00:31:20
    senate
  • 00:31:21
    and then that was really very not until
  • 00:31:23
    very late in the 20th century was there
  • 00:31:26
    were there women bathrooms
  • 00:31:28
    i the the sad underlying story here is
  • 00:31:31
    that when we look back on the long haul
  • 00:31:33
    of history
  • 00:31:35
    we don't have many examples of truly
  • 00:31:39
    equal societies
  • 00:31:41
    there are myths about matriarchies and
  • 00:31:44
    there are uh legends about
  • 00:31:47
    equal societies
  • 00:31:50
    but there are very few historical
  • 00:31:54
    actual evidences of
  • 00:31:56
    fully equi full equality gender equality
  • 00:31:59
    in the history
  • 00:32:01
    of humankind so in that sense i think
  • 00:32:04
    that underlying sanchez's point before
  • 00:32:06
    this is a utopian hope
  • 00:32:09
    that is it's it's a hope it's a hope to
  • 00:32:11
    establish something that hasn't really
  • 00:32:13
    had a historical precedent
  • 00:32:17
    oh but what is unprecedented is that is
  • 00:32:20
    the transformation of society from the
  • 00:32:22
    from the uh from the 19th century to the
  • 00:32:25
    beginning of the 21st century we would
  • 00:32:27
    not be on this we would not be in these
  • 00:32:30
    in the zoom
  • 00:32:31
    in this zoom box
  • 00:32:33
    um
  • 00:32:34
    we would not be wearing wearing
  • 00:32:36
    pantsuits we would not be doing most of
  • 00:32:38
    the things that we do if we were living
  • 00:32:40
    200 years ago oh i mean there has never
  • 00:32:43
    been there has never been a historical
  • 00:32:45
    moment when women could speak in public
  • 00:32:47
    as we can speak in public
  • 00:32:50
    what you're saying is that you see signs
  • 00:32:53
    of progress right but we don't see
  • 00:32:56
    we don't see models in the past of the
  • 00:32:59
    full equality that we aim for
  • 00:33:02
    no we don't see models in the past
  • 00:33:03
    except in the in the in the products of
  • 00:33:06
    the of the female imagination of the
  • 00:33:08
    right
  • 00:33:09
    right right where women from from
  • 00:33:11
    charlotte uh from christine to pisan
  • 00:33:13
    through charlotte perkins gilman were
  • 00:33:15
    imagining utopias in which women
  • 00:33:18
    were able to express themselves and to
  • 00:33:20
    be powerful
  • 00:33:21
    christina pisona in the 14th century
  • 00:33:23
    wrote the city of ladies in which the it
  • 00:33:26
    was a women's educational institution
  • 00:33:28
    but also a kind of republic of women
  • 00:33:30
    and charlotte perkins gilman of course
  • 00:33:32
    produced her land in the late 19th early
  • 00:33:35
    20th century
  • 00:33:36
    and now in a way
  • 00:33:39
    with all of those women in in congress
  • 00:33:41
    wearing white pad suits as nancy pelosi
  • 00:33:44
    tore up the state of the union speech we
  • 00:33:47
    were beginning to see in reality
  • 00:33:49
    something like what people had only
  • 00:33:51
    dreamt of in the 19th century it was it
  • 00:33:53
    really happened we really saw it
  • 00:33:57
    yeah
  • 00:33:59
    great thank you so much for that um
  • 00:34:01
    thank you camille for your question for
  • 00:34:03
    sharing with us
  • 00:34:05
    kelly you are next what's your question
  • 00:34:08
    thank you
  • 00:34:09
    thank you for your beautiful book and
  • 00:34:11
    for this wonderful conversation i'm
  • 00:34:13
    really delighted to be part of it um
  • 00:34:16
    i have like many people i expect have
  • 00:34:19
    been thinking and reading a lot about
  • 00:34:21
    grieving and grief
  • 00:34:23
    and how we express grief
  • 00:34:25
    in joan didion's two books about the
  • 00:34:27
    loss of her husband and her daughter she
  • 00:34:29
    expresses her the grief at her loss but
  • 00:34:32
    also her longing and yearning and
  • 00:34:34
    wishing to bring them back to life which
  • 00:34:37
    she does in a way by writing about them
  • 00:34:40
    have you seen the themes of grief and
  • 00:34:42
    yearning as part of the feminist writing
  • 00:34:45
    tradition
  • 00:34:46
    or common to the lived experience of the
  • 00:34:48
    writers you've studied
  • 00:34:50
    i would like to respond to that um by
  • 00:34:53
    saying that i have studied allergy women
  • 00:34:56
    allergies written by women and by men
  • 00:34:58
    and i noticed that there is a really
  • 00:35:00
    distinctive difference um until actually
  • 00:35:03
    things change a little bit in the 20th
  • 00:35:05
    century but in women's poetry
  • 00:35:08
    about about loss as in gideon's books
  • 00:35:11
    and as in countless memoirs by by women
  • 00:35:13
    who are grieving losses uh
  • 00:35:16
    women are much more personal
  • 00:35:21
    tactile almost
  • 00:35:23
    i mean like the shoes right that the
  • 00:35:25
    pair of shoes with which that book
  • 00:35:27
    starts and and the shoes go back
  • 00:35:29
    actually to jacob's room by virginia
  • 00:35:31
    woolf where jacob dies her protagonist
  • 00:35:34
    died dies in the in the first world war
  • 00:35:36
    and his mother picks up a pair of shoes
  • 00:35:39
    and says what will i do with them and in
  • 00:35:41
    the year of magical thinking gideon
  • 00:35:42
    picks up her husband's shoes and says
  • 00:35:44
    boy i need to keep him because he might
  • 00:35:46
    come back and need them now men don't
  • 00:35:48
    write that way about grief until maybe
  • 00:35:50
    during the 20th century they are
  • 00:35:52
    influenced by women's writing i mean
  • 00:35:54
    this this influence the dynamics go two
  • 00:35:56
    ways in in grief writing um
  • 00:35:59
    but it is really true that
  • 00:36:02
    going back almost to classical great
  • 00:36:04
    culture women went into the woods
  • 00:36:06
    and howled like the bakay for example
  • 00:36:10
    but men spoke on the public stage with
  • 00:36:13
    extremely controlled rhetoric so the
  • 00:36:15
    classic pastoral elegy for example was
  • 00:36:18
    by a male poet
  • 00:36:20
    of
  • 00:36:21
    mourning for the loss of of of another
  • 00:36:24
    man
  • 00:36:24
    uh and women didn't write that kind of
  • 00:36:26
    stuff they wrote about the loss of
  • 00:36:28
    babies the loss of husbands and they
  • 00:36:30
    wrote personally and and various i say
  • 00:36:33
    very almost tactilely um
  • 00:36:35
    but then in the 20th century men start
  • 00:36:37
    writing more like women so they've been
  • 00:36:39
    influenced by by a kind of female
  • 00:36:41
    tradition here
  • 00:36:43
    i would like to add that
  • 00:36:45
    where i see grief in in the feminist
  • 00:36:48
    tradition
  • 00:36:49
    is in uh kate millet and
  • 00:36:52
    and andrea dwarken and to a certain
  • 00:36:54
    extent gloria anzaldua all of whom are
  • 00:36:57
    writing about the difficulties of women
  • 00:37:01
    who are suffering domestic battery abuse
  • 00:37:05
    domestic violence um millet mourns uh
  • 00:37:10
    met women who have been killed by their
  • 00:37:12
    husbands
  • 00:37:13
    and it and has written some really grief
  • 00:37:16
    drenched
  • 00:37:18
    books on um
  • 00:37:20
    on what male dominance means in a
  • 00:37:23
    personal individual level i also think
  • 00:37:25
    we should
  • 00:37:26
    mention that didion plays a rather
  • 00:37:28
    equivocal role in still mad um because
  • 00:37:32
    uh one of the themes we trace in still
  • 00:37:34
    mad
  • 00:37:35
    is the um
  • 00:37:36
    the voices of women who are
  • 00:37:39
    anti-feminists and didion to some extent
  • 00:37:42
    falls into that rubric in the 70s she
  • 00:37:45
    seems to associate feminism with the
  • 00:37:47
    victimization of women rather than as a
  • 00:37:50
    protest against the victimization of
  • 00:37:52
    women
  • 00:37:52
    so we have we have a sort of she she
  • 00:37:55
    plays an equivocal role
  • 00:37:58
    thank you for that
  • 00:38:00
    sharon
  • 00:38:01
    your question
  • 00:38:03
    okay um thanks so much for having me and
  • 00:38:06
    hello susan and sandra i've heard
  • 00:38:09
    sandra read her poetry in the bay area
  • 00:38:11
    when i used to live there
  • 00:38:13
    so um my question i was fascinated by
  • 00:38:15
    gene reese's novel
  • 00:38:17
    wide sargasso sea which gave such a
  • 00:38:20
    sympathetic view of bertha a mad woman
  • 00:38:23
    in the attic of charlotte bronte's novel
  • 00:38:25
    jane eyre and i wondered what what do
  • 00:38:28
    you think she and charlotte might say to
  • 00:38:30
    each other about the character if they
  • 00:38:32
    could meet
  • 00:38:36
    andrew
  • 00:38:37
    i said i think charlotte would be
  • 00:38:38
    scandalized
  • 00:38:40
    i don't know i think she would be
  • 00:38:41
    completely scandalized by the idea of
  • 00:38:43
    giving birth a voice
  • 00:38:45
    um she just she can't imagine birth as
  • 00:38:48
    real i mean bertha is so uh physically
  • 00:38:52
    other so racially other
  • 00:38:54
    so
  • 00:38:55
    madly other and yet the same as
  • 00:38:58
    animalistic and yet at the same time
  • 00:39:00
    she's everything that that
  • 00:39:02
    jane and charlotte herself have been
  • 00:39:05
    taught to repress
  • 00:39:06
    and but we know that they she hasn't
  • 00:39:09
    been repressed because she is there she
  • 00:39:10
    is in the attic raging away
  • 00:39:12
    and ultimately burning the house down
  • 00:39:14
    and leveling the playing field for
  • 00:39:17
    rochester and jane
  • 00:39:19
    so um
  • 00:39:20
    i i think that she would be scandalized
  • 00:39:22
    by by chain reasons i agree it's very
  • 00:39:24
    brilliant of jane reese however to go
  • 00:39:26
    back into the past and give birth a
  • 00:39:28
    voice
  • 00:39:30
    because jean raised herself new knew the
  • 00:39:31
    caribbean and so she was she could write
  • 00:39:34
    about that and she could really she
  • 00:39:37
    could really go to the bottom of it she
  • 00:39:38
    could go to the orange to the original
  • 00:39:41
    place where bertha came from and give it
  • 00:39:43
    a kind of reality
  • 00:39:45
    that that i think is quite wonderful
  • 00:39:48
    i
  • 00:39:49
    yeah i i think she would have been
  • 00:39:51
    scandalized
  • 00:39:55
    thank you so much and peter over to you
  • 00:39:57
    for your question
  • 00:40:00
    great thank you and uh thank you sandra
  • 00:40:02
    and susan it's a pleasure to see you uh
  • 00:40:04
    really appreciate your all your work and
  • 00:40:06
    really excited about what you'll be
  • 00:40:07
    doing even further beyond beyond today
  • 00:40:09
    um you've already touched on one of my
  • 00:40:11
    favorite authors it's more of a sort of
  • 00:40:13
    a current or contemporary writer which
  • 00:40:14
    is alison bechtel um who fascinates me
  • 00:40:17
    not just by the story she tells but that
  • 00:40:19
    she's a graphic novelist so she's
  • 00:40:20
    working in a slightly different medium
  • 00:40:23
    so that's that's where i like to direct
  • 00:40:24
    my question it's sort of the current
  • 00:40:26
    environment and how you see that in the
  • 00:40:28
    broader context of what you're talking
  • 00:40:29
    about another example might be um uh
  • 00:40:33
    there's a terrific actually comic book
  • 00:40:34
    written by an american woman uh kelly
  • 00:40:36
    sue deconic called planet um which
  • 00:40:40
    is very femme centric and very exciting
  • 00:40:41
    and i'm also thinking of carmen maria
  • 00:40:43
    machado who wrote in the dream house
  • 00:40:45
    which is a it's a tough subject it's
  • 00:40:47
    about an abusive relationship but it's
  • 00:40:48
    done in a very imaginative imaginative
  • 00:40:50
    way that sort of breaks through the
  • 00:40:52
    traditional style so my question to you
  • 00:40:54
    is to you both is how do you see the the
  • 00:40:56
    present day
  • 00:40:57
    transgender or gender rights authors uh
  • 00:41:00
    situated within the the longer feminist
  • 00:41:03
    literary tradition
  • 00:41:05
    i think that the transgender
  • 00:41:07
    conversation starts in the 80s and 90s
  • 00:41:10
    oddly enough with lesbian separatists
  • 00:41:13
    who are
  • 00:41:14
    objecting to trans women as men who are
  • 00:41:18
    going to the women's festivals that are
  • 00:41:20
    supposed to be only for women and
  • 00:41:22
    transgressing
  • 00:41:23
    and trying to you know hone in on
  • 00:41:25
    women's territory uh
  • 00:41:28
    and and that
  • 00:41:30
    that unfortunate response to trans women
  • 00:41:33
    got a big response in the 90s when trans
  • 00:41:36
    people started speaking up for
  • 00:41:38
    themselves
  • 00:41:39
    so you see people like um
  • 00:41:42
    well sandy stone uh writing a manifesto
  • 00:41:47
    trans women
  • 00:41:49
    um
  • 00:41:50
    that's in the 90s and leslie feinberg
  • 00:41:52
    writing a novel about a he she character
  • 00:41:55
    and i see that trans writers are
  • 00:41:57
    increasingly carving out a place for
  • 00:42:00
    themselves um the auth and and they're
  • 00:42:03
    doing so you mentioned
  • 00:42:05
    genres that are innovative like the
  • 00:42:07
    graphic novel they're doing so in
  • 00:42:09
    innovative genres that like the graphic
  • 00:42:11
    novel are trying to cross a divide
  • 00:42:13
    between being sophisticated
  • 00:42:15
    theoretically about thinking about
  • 00:42:17
    draen's identity
  • 00:42:18
    and culture at the same time
  • 00:42:21
    reaching out to a popular broad audience
  • 00:42:24
    that will enjoy the book
  • 00:42:26
    or the work so for example the recent tv
  • 00:42:29
    show pose was written by a woman who is
  • 00:42:32
    a trans woman and who's written several
  • 00:42:35
    memoirs about being trans and um
  • 00:42:38
    and she's very interested in thinking
  • 00:42:41
    theoretically about trans identity but
  • 00:42:43
    she also wants to reach a broad audience
  • 00:42:46
    and i think i think tv starting with
  • 00:42:48
    transparent going to pose has played a
  • 00:42:51
    very interesting role in that
  • 00:42:53
    i'd like to say something too about the
  • 00:42:55
    use of the graphic novel or the comic
  • 00:42:57
    book genre which is what i thought you
  • 00:42:59
    were addressing when you asked about
  • 00:43:01
    bechtel i mean that is that is really
  • 00:43:04
    interesting for women to be doing that
  • 00:43:06
    that was comics as you know was such a
  • 00:43:09
    macho genre i mean captain from captain
  • 00:43:12
    marvel onward and superman and batman
  • 00:43:15
    that comic book genre is so and even
  • 00:43:17
    even you know
  • 00:43:18
    sort of more high-level ones like
  • 00:43:20
    ostrich or tanta in france which were
  • 00:43:23
    more like our graphic novels you know
  • 00:43:25
    more slightly less comic booky in our
  • 00:43:28
    sense so it's really wonderful to see
  • 00:43:30
    that these women began invading that
  • 00:43:32
    genre and that bechtel made such a great
  • 00:43:35
    use of of the genre and just taking it
  • 00:43:38
    over for for a feminist and a lesbian
  • 00:43:42
    to discuss her life in the world um i
  • 00:43:45
    don't know whether anybody knows but
  • 00:43:46
    patricia high smith who i do not think
  • 00:43:49
    of as a feminist once worked as a comic
  • 00:43:52
    book writer
  • 00:43:53
    she wrote the uh she didn't she didn't
  • 00:43:55
    do the um the pictures but she wrote the
  • 00:43:58
    dialogue and it sounds like you know
  • 00:44:00
    that peter and i think that it
  • 00:44:02
    influenced her i mean if you you want to
  • 00:44:04
    read patricia highsmith with a new sort
  • 00:44:06
    of insight you might think that
  • 00:44:08
    uh the
  • 00:44:10
    mr ripley came out of not only the mind
  • 00:44:13
    of a very strange woman but also from
  • 00:44:16
    the comic book tradition
  • 00:44:18
    thank
  • 00:44:20
    you thank you very much for your answers
  • 00:44:24
    sunder and susan and thank you very much
  • 00:44:26
    to our guest questioners from the
  • 00:44:28
    audience
  • 00:44:29
    um we really appreciate that you joined
  • 00:44:30
    us you are brave to come on with us and
  • 00:44:33
    um we thank you for sharing those
  • 00:44:36
    and now over to margaret and david thank
  • 00:44:39
    you
  • 00:44:40
    uh david and i have a few last questions
  • 00:44:42
    that are percolating around here um
  • 00:44:44
    david i can start with one or you could
  • 00:44:47
    however
  • 00:44:48
    sure i'll i have a question um
  • 00:44:52
    it's so it's so much more common to see
  • 00:44:56
    collaboration
  • 00:44:58
    in academia or in books among in in
  • 00:45:01
    science
  • 00:45:03
    and less you know i can look back on the
  • 00:45:05
    shelf that's behind me that i just
  • 00:45:07
    pulled mad woman off the attic off of
  • 00:45:09
    and i don't think i'll find a single
  • 00:45:10
    book that's written by two people
  • 00:45:13
    um except yours
  • 00:45:15
    how how do you
  • 00:45:17
    you you did it 40 years ago and you did
  • 00:45:19
    it now how was working together in this
  • 00:45:21
    type of academic project for the two of
  • 00:45:23
    you
  • 00:45:24
    well we often say that 40 years ago or
  • 00:45:27
    45 years ago when we started the mad
  • 00:45:29
    woman in the attic that we wouldn't have
  • 00:45:31
    dared to do it without each other it was
  • 00:45:33
    such an ambitious and such a kooky idea
  • 00:45:35
    that there was a female literary
  • 00:45:37
    tradition i mean what what what what
  • 00:45:40
    what had we drunk what had we smoked um
  • 00:45:43
    so i think it did take uh a certain kind
  • 00:45:46
    of solidarity uh at that time i don't
  • 00:45:49
    know if sanji will agree but that it was
  • 00:45:51
    a great solace to know that we we were
  • 00:45:53
    too and that we agreed and that we could
  • 00:45:55
    help each other out in those days we
  • 00:45:58
    would very often ride together in the
  • 00:45:59
    same room with two pens and two
  • 00:46:02
    notebooks
  • 00:46:03
    or two laptops and that's not possible
  • 00:46:05
    any longer
  • 00:46:08
    but nonetheless it's very it's very
  • 00:46:10
    useful it's very comforting and the
  • 00:46:12
    other thing that i would say is that um
  • 00:46:16
    i've thought a lot about that a
  • 00:46:18
    collaboration and what collaboration
  • 00:46:20
    means and i thought about other
  • 00:46:21
    collaborations like for example on this
  • 00:46:23
    collaboration with chester coleman so
  • 00:46:25
    that is to men in the in humanities um
  • 00:46:29
    and and odin himself made the point that
  • 00:46:31
    what emerges out of such a partnership
  • 00:46:33
    is a
  • 00:46:34
    unique collaborative voice
  • 00:46:37
    i think that was particularly true with
  • 00:46:38
    the mad woman that we we would say
  • 00:46:40
    things like well nobody this is the way
  • 00:46:42
    we say it
  • 00:46:44
    and and the we was this collab
  • 00:46:46
    collaborative we who would say or argue
  • 00:46:49
    something in a certain way when we did
  • 00:46:51
    our own separate work
  • 00:46:52
    we i'm i think sure we were both
  • 00:46:54
    influenced but by what we had done
  • 00:46:56
    together but but this collaborative
  • 00:46:58
    voice that comes out of working together
  • 00:47:01
    is is hard-won and it's also a kind of
  • 00:47:05
    uh a protective shell in a way
  • 00:47:09
    yeah
  • 00:47:10
    yeah
  • 00:47:11
    so it to be more
  • 00:47:13
    prosaic about it and usually we'll
  • 00:47:15
    divide authors for example
  • 00:47:17
    but then
  • 00:47:18
    after we've done drafted on different
  • 00:47:21
    authors we work very closely together
  • 00:47:23
    now it's usually on on the phone
  • 00:47:26
    because we we live so far apart and we
  • 00:47:28
    can't travel
  • 00:47:30
    and we go over every single sentence
  • 00:47:32
    together every single sentence the idea
  • 00:47:34
    is that you should not be able to tell
  • 00:47:36
    that there's a voice change
  • 00:47:39
    from section to section or author to
  • 00:47:41
    author
  • 00:47:43
    and that we fully own all of the book
  • 00:47:47
    right
  • 00:47:50
    that's fast that leads to some
  • 00:47:51
    quarreling that does lead to some
  • 00:47:53
    quarreling oh that's true that's true
  • 00:47:57
    uh uh and one topic that i think you
  • 00:48:00
    both agree on um but and i have a
  • 00:48:02
    question on that is um
  • 00:48:04
    you know you're you discussed a sort of
  • 00:48:07
    overarching evolution of feminism from
  • 00:48:10
    1950 to 2020 uh and i i'm
  • 00:48:14
    interested as to why you see that still
  • 00:48:17
    as a second wave
  • 00:48:19
    um could it would would others say it's
  • 00:48:22
    a third and a fourth wave what makes
  • 00:48:24
    this one long second wave feminism
  • 00:48:28
    others would say there is a a a third
  • 00:48:30
    wave and others still would say there's
  • 00:48:33
    a fourth wave
  • 00:48:35
    we think about the long first wave from
  • 00:48:38
    seneca falls
  • 00:48:40
    all the way to the granting of the vote
  • 00:48:43
    and we think
  • 00:48:44
    it's got a certain kind of coherence as
  • 00:48:46
    a first wave and the second wave it
  • 00:48:48
    seems to us partly because of something
  • 00:48:50
    we we touched on before
  • 00:48:53
    is also got a coherence in part because
  • 00:48:56
    the kinds of problems that
  • 00:48:58
    lorraine hansberry and sylvia plath and
  • 00:49:00
    adrian rich and
  • 00:49:02
    the 50s writers were facing that is for
  • 00:49:05
    example
  • 00:49:06
    the contradiction between domesticity
  • 00:49:09
    and ambition between childbearing and
  • 00:49:11
    childbearing and poetic
  • 00:49:15
    desire that these had not been solved a
  • 00:49:18
    part of the second wave was very very
  • 00:49:21
    convinced that women had to have control
  • 00:49:24
    over their own bodies
  • 00:49:27
    that issue has clearly not been solved
  • 00:49:29
    and health care is still an enormous
  • 00:49:31
    problem for many many women in america
  • 00:49:34
    today so the issues still are obdurate
  • 00:49:37
    as they're ongoing
  • 00:49:41
    i mean a certain in a certain profound
  • 00:49:43
    sense
  • 00:49:44
    in terms of what women confront
  • 00:49:47
    when they when they
  • 00:49:48
    attempt to act on their ambitions
  • 00:49:51
    very little has changed
  • 00:49:53
    i can remember students coming into my
  • 00:49:54
    office and saying you know we've come a
  • 00:49:56
    long way professor
  • 00:49:58
    and i would have to say well come back
  • 00:50:00
    in 20 years when you have a child and
  • 00:50:03
    are trying to struggle to find child
  • 00:50:05
    care and
  • 00:50:06
    and to put things together with your
  • 00:50:08
    your career ambitions and your job at
  • 00:50:10
    the law firm come back and tell me that
  • 00:50:12
    again
  • 00:50:13
    you know because it's still terribly
  • 00:50:16
    difficult yeah yeah no we we've all been
  • 00:50:19
    there and we we feel that and it is
  • 00:50:21
    still the same you're absolutely right
  • 00:50:23
    um and the last question here um
  • 00:50:27
    the women's movement has been accused of
  • 00:50:30
    being racist
  • 00:50:31
    uh i do wonder what your thoughts are on
  • 00:50:35
    women of color um
  • 00:50:37
    and their experience of feminism uh were
  • 00:50:40
    they not a vanguard in many ways um what
  • 00:50:44
    are your thoughts on that topic yeah i
  • 00:50:46
    think this was one of the most
  • 00:50:48
    surprising things to ask because we have
  • 00:50:50
    always heard um
  • 00:50:52
    it's almost uh platitude that the second
  • 00:50:54
    wave was driven by white middle-class
  • 00:50:56
    women
  • 00:50:57
    but what we found that
  • 00:51:00
    we found is that the literary women who
  • 00:51:02
    played such a prominent role in
  • 00:51:04
    providing words and tactics to the
  • 00:51:06
    second movement to the women the
  • 00:51:08
    activists in the second in the second
  • 00:51:09
    wave
  • 00:51:10
    they were the black women women of color
  • 00:51:13
    played an enormously innovative and
  • 00:51:16
    early role and they were not middle
  • 00:51:18
    class they were not white they were
  • 00:51:20
    and they were working on their own
  • 00:51:22
    ethnicity and their own racial issues in
  • 00:51:24
    in tandem with their feminist issues so
  • 00:51:27
    considerably lord i mean consider audrey
  • 00:51:29
    lord as a sort of epitome of all that
  • 00:51:32
    yeah absolutely becomes a great theorist
  • 00:51:34
    of feminism even while she's also a poet
  • 00:51:38
    and a lesbian and a black activist yeah
  • 00:51:41
    yeah
  • 00:51:42
    absolutely and also i would say lorraine
  • 00:51:45
    hansberry who was talking about the
  • 00:51:47
    misery of being a housewife way before
  • 00:51:50
    betty friedan i would say nina simone
  • 00:51:53
    who i don't think has ever been really
  • 00:51:54
    put in this context
  • 00:51:56
    before but some of her songs are
  • 00:51:58
    revolutionary about the difficulties
  • 00:52:01
    that black women have establishing an
  • 00:52:03
    identity on their own from and by
  • 00:52:06
    themselves rather than having to inhabit
  • 00:52:08
    categories and names foisted on them
  • 00:52:11
    her story her song some of her songs are
  • 00:52:13
    revolutionary
  • 00:52:15
    but don't forget about toni morrison who
  • 00:52:18
    said she was so set out as a writer to
  • 00:52:20
    write about the person that she thought
  • 00:52:22
    was at the bottom of the totem pole a
  • 00:52:24
    little black girl
  • 00:52:26
    in the bluest eye i mean and and she
  • 00:52:29
    really she really changed the world in a
  • 00:52:31
    way by writing that book and then going
  • 00:52:32
    on to right and you see with her how you
  • 00:52:35
    know the black power movement in the
  • 00:52:37
    civil rights movement
  • 00:52:38
    they spawn let's say a slogan like black
  • 00:52:41
    is beautiful and then morrison takes it
  • 00:52:44
    up in the novel to say what does that
  • 00:52:46
    mean to a black little girl who's who
  • 00:52:48
    wants to have blue eyes because she
  • 00:52:50
    thinks blue eyes are beautiful
  • 00:52:54
    so you see the ways in which the the
  • 00:52:55
    black power movement civil rights
  • 00:52:57
    movement
  • 00:52:58
    our worked by toni morrison through a
  • 00:53:01
    feminist lens to understand a young
  • 00:53:03
    girl's socialization into an extremely
  • 00:53:05
    debilitating ideology
  • 00:53:10
    but she also retrieved a great deal of
  • 00:53:12
    black history in the black book and
  • 00:53:14
    absolutely arson was you know she was
  • 00:53:16
    retrieving black history even while she
  • 00:53:18
    was giving voice to the voiceless
  • 00:53:21
    yes absolutely
  • 00:53:25
    so many people to thank for all the work
  • 00:53:27
    that's been done to where we are right
  • 00:53:29
    now and particularly you two tonight um
  • 00:53:31
    that was really fascinating um i want to
  • 00:53:34
    thank you both and also our brave and
  • 00:53:36
    brilliant audience members i learned so
  • 00:53:38
    much and the learning continues as we do
  • 00:53:41
    for all our american inspiration author
  • 00:53:43
    events and american stories inspiration
  • 00:53:46
    today we are going to ask um these
  • 00:53:48
    authors to share a reading or some
  • 00:53:50
    reflection from the book so they are
  • 00:53:53
    gratefully going to
  • 00:53:55
    thankfully going to indulge us in that
  • 00:53:57
    so um over to you i think sandra you're
  • 00:54:00
    first is that right yes i'm just going
  • 00:54:02
    to read two paragraphs from a section
  • 00:54:04
    that begins glass ceilings and broken
  • 00:54:07
    glass
  • 00:54:08
    mantras of bygone days still ringing our
  • 00:54:11
    ears we've come a long way professor
  • 00:54:14
    we're shattering glass ceilings we can
  • 00:54:16
    have it all we're leaning in and the
  • 00:54:18
    culture's changing
  • 00:54:20
    but is the culture really changing if it
  • 00:54:22
    is why are we and so many of our friends
  • 00:54:25
    still mad matt is in the sense of
  • 00:54:27
    enraged matters in the sense of madden
  • 00:54:31
    confused or rebellious
  • 00:54:34
    maybe if you come a long way you
  • 00:54:35
    encounter territorial backlash maybe if
  • 00:54:38
    you shatter glass ceilings you have to
  • 00:54:40
    walk on broken glass
  • 00:54:42
    maybe if you lean in you topple over
  • 00:54:46
    four decades have gone by since we
  • 00:54:47
    opened our first co-authored book the
  • 00:54:49
    mad woman in the attic but the question
  • 00:54:52
    is a pen a metaphorical penis we were
  • 00:54:54
    attempting to examine the century's long
  • 00:54:56
    identification of authority with
  • 00:54:58
    masculinity in order to excavate female
  • 00:55:01
    literary traditions
  • 00:55:03
    now we find ourselves mulling over a
  • 00:55:05
    related question as we seek to
  • 00:55:07
    understand the gender implications of
  • 00:55:09
    american politics
  • 00:55:11
    in this presumably more liberated moment
  • 00:55:13
    when quite a few women have come forward
  • 00:55:15
    as serious candidates for the presidency
  • 00:55:18
    we nevertheless find ourselves asking
  • 00:55:20
    must the president have a penis
  • 00:55:24
    after the 2016
  • 00:55:26
    election second wave feminism had
  • 00:55:28
    evidently both triumphed and failed
  • 00:55:32
    as the extraordinary women's march
  • 00:55:34
    revealed many were angry at the failure
  • 00:55:36
    but also puzzled by how it could have
  • 00:55:38
    happened during a time of so many
  • 00:55:40
    achievements
  • 00:55:42
    we were baffled too
  • 00:55:44
    the why of this book
  • 00:55:46
    because we are still mad we seek to
  • 00:55:48
    understand feminism's past and present
  • 00:55:51
    in order to strengthen its future
  • 00:55:54
    the 2016 election
  • 00:55:57
    proves that women and men must learn
  • 00:55:59
    over and over again what our generation
  • 00:56:01
    started to learn and teach in the 60s
  • 00:56:04
    its aftermath also confirms that
  • 00:56:07
    feminists today have begun channeling
  • 00:56:09
    the rebellious rage of the mad woman we
  • 00:56:11
    studied
  • 00:56:12
    a female figure incensed by patriarchal
  • 00:56:15
    structures that have proven to be
  • 00:56:18
    shockingly obdurate
  • 00:56:22
    well thank you both very much uh in the
  • 00:56:25
    land of family study i have been
  • 00:56:27
    watching my colleagues at the
  • 00:56:29
    genealogical society working very hard
  • 00:56:31
    to make sure lives women's lives and
  • 00:56:33
    backgrounds are not lost as we make our
  • 00:56:36
    family trees and that women
  • 00:56:38
    live in the past and live in the future
  • 00:56:41
    it's so important so thank you for your
  • 00:56:44
    amazing work shining light on women's
  • 00:56:46
    lives and literature um david do you
  • 00:56:48
    want to say something something more
  • 00:56:50
    about the book
  • 00:56:51
    um i'll i'll just say that it's it's
  • 00:56:54
    such an it's such an honor to
  • 00:56:56
    be able to talk with the two of you
  • 00:56:58
    that you know who sat on my shelf for so
  • 00:57:00
    long and i'm i'm in love with this new
  • 00:57:02
    book i think it's a fantastic way to
  • 00:57:07
    take what you wrote in the 70s and and
  • 00:57:09
    and make it important
  • 00:57:11
    40 something years later
  • 00:57:13
    and everyone of course will want to own
  • 00:57:15
    this book and
  • 00:57:17
    portersquarebooks.com is where you will
  • 00:57:19
    get it uh and if you want the signed one
  • 00:57:22
    you'll put in that coupon code but i'm
  • 00:57:24
    just honored to be a part of this and
  • 00:57:26
    thank you both so very much
  • 00:57:28
    thank you so much
  • 00:57:30
    thank you so much
  • 00:57:33
    thank you very much sandra and susan
  • 00:57:35
    thank you margaret thank you david thank
  • 00:57:37
    you to our producers at form network and
  • 00:57:40
    thank you to our audience members
  • 00:57:41
    especially the brave ones who came on
  • 00:57:43
    here with us with the questions
  • 00:57:45
    [Music]
Tags
  • Feminism
  • Literature
  • Women Writers
  • Gender Equality
  • Cultural Change
  • American History
  • Second Wave Feminism
  • Feminist Imagination
  • Women's Roles
  • Social Progress