00:00:00
do you think
00:00:01
that this Grace this
00:00:04
omnipotence this love and charity of the
00:00:09
Old Testament
00:00:11
God is
00:00:14
expressed in the instances where he
00:00:17
commands the complete
00:00:19
obliteration of entire nations of people
00:00:22
including the women and the children and
00:00:24
even the
00:00:25
animals uh in
00:00:28
multiple at multiple points throughout
00:00:30
the history of the uh Israelites trying
00:00:33
to conquer their Holy Land which is
00:00:36
promised them by God such that if
00:00:37
anybody is already living there they're
00:00:40
driven out and if they refused to leave
00:00:42
they're chased out and they're killed
00:00:44
and then they come back and they kill
00:00:46
the women and the children
00:00:48
um do you think
00:00:50
that this is the same graceful loving
00:00:54
God that's issuing these
00:00:57
commands no instead I think you got to
00:01:00
read very
00:01:01
carefully first point do I allow God to
00:01:04
judge in my culture that's unacceptable
00:01:08
and yet the Bible insists God does have
00:01:09
the right to
00:01:10
judge second
00:01:13
point is exaggeration being used is
00:01:16
hyperbole being used in a lot of those
00:01:19
passages yes it is because clearly
00:01:22
obviously many of those people who were
00:01:23
supposedly all wiped out appear in the
00:01:26
next book so you know that they weren't
00:01:27
all wiped out thirdly you look at at the
00:01:30
archaeological evidence for Jericho and
00:01:32
I and you begin to realize those were
00:01:34
probably smaller fortresses yes Rahab
00:01:37
was in there as a prostitute but those
00:01:39
were not just families and and women and
00:01:42
children those were fortresses that were
00:01:44
protecting the families that lived out
00:01:47
in the countryside around them next
00:01:49
point is I think that there is not the
00:01:52
emphasis on
00:01:53
individualism in the Old Testament that
00:01:56
we have in our culture Y and yet the
00:01:59
more we struggle
00:02:00
with through children of Alcoholics and
00:02:02
realize that there are real consequences
00:02:03
that stretch down through the
00:02:05
generations and I think the Old
00:02:06
Testament does present a picture that we
00:02:09
are more interconnected than we as
00:02:10
American individualists would like to
00:02:12
admit and when God judges a people group
00:02:15
yes some innocent people are swept along
00:02:17
in the judgment and that bugs me I don't
00:02:20
like that and yet that is part of I
00:02:24
think what the Bible is talking about
00:02:25
when it says we're created in the image
00:02:27
of God meaning that we do have free will
00:02:29
which means there are consequences to my
00:02:31
decisions that affect my
00:02:33
children that affect my grandchildren
00:02:36
we're more interconnected than we would
00:02:38
like to admit so no those children are
00:02:40
not being punished for anything they did
00:02:43
wrong but yes they're born into a cursed
00:02:45
messed up world and there are
00:02:46
consequences to that I mean I benefited
00:02:48
from going to Davidson College and a lot
00:02:50
of people sacrificed to put Davidson
00:02:52
together you benefited from going to
00:02:54
Oxford University and there are a lot of
00:02:56
people who have over many years given
00:02:58
sacrificially to build that so there are
00:03:00
real consequences that stretch down
00:03:02
through the generations of our decisions
00:03:05
and also the Bible never says that those
00:03:07
children and all those people go to
00:03:09
Eternity separate from God I'm convinced
00:03:11
that we will see those children in
00:03:12
heaven if they were killed before an age
00:03:15
of accountability so the justice of God
00:03:19
will ultimately Triumph yeah but do I
00:03:22
have problems with the text yes of
00:03:24
course I have problems with the text I
00:03:25
don't understand it exactly I don't
00:03:28
understand what God is doing exactly
00:03:30
there why he says that kind of thing but
00:03:32
I'm also convinced that hyperbole is
00:03:34
being used and I think that's a very
00:03:36
important thing for instance when I was
00:03:38
in high school we used to say we're
00:03:39
going to kill yeah the opposing team
00:03:41
that we're going to play that weekend
00:03:43
not meaning we're literally going to
00:03:44
kill them and and the whole idea of in
00:03:47
in the Hebrew Herm h eem of clearing out
00:03:51
these people from the promised land the
00:03:53
whole idea that God had given them 400
00:03:55
over 400 years to repent and they had
00:03:57
chosen not to and now God clears them
00:03:59
out out you know I I think it's a
00:04:02
complex issue more complex than the
00:04:04
person would allow it to be who just
00:04:06
says I just can't believe that God would
00:04:07
do something like that like what what
00:04:09
kind of instruction had these people
00:04:12
been given you know like the people of I
00:04:13
the people of Jericho the Canaanites I
00:04:15
mean did they have you Jewish prophets
00:04:18
coming to them and saying you should
00:04:19
repent of your way or were they just
00:04:21
sort of expected to work it out on their
00:04:22
own fascinating question I'm not sure I
00:04:26
do not know obviously they have
00:04:28
consciences we all have conscien yeah
00:04:30
and when you study ethics from around
00:04:32
the world it's amazing that it seems
00:04:34
we're all like reading off the same
00:04:35
sheet music and there's more research
00:04:38
coming out too on just how bad these
00:04:40
people groups sure right right I'm
00:04:42
seeing more of this child sacrifice can
00:04:44
exactly it just gets worse year like how
00:04:46
bad is it gonna get and so but the
00:04:48
second one have you wrestled with this
00:04:50
being a really culturally conditioned
00:04:52
question oh
00:04:53
Absolut the Chinese don't don't struggle
00:04:56
with this one yeah I've talked to people
00:04:58
of other cultures and I've brought up
00:05:00
like that's totally fine that God judges
00:05:02
in that kind of way it's so much worse
00:05:04
cuz it's it's not just like culturally
00:05:05
relative like I'm I'm a moral
00:05:07
anti-realist I don't believe
00:05:08
in moral values right so like you know
00:05:12
what could I possibly be be meaning here
00:05:14
it's but I don't wrestle with it because
00:05:17
my my job here isn't to say that this is
00:05:19
wrong my my job is to say something like
00:05:21
what Lincoln said of slavery if if uh if
00:05:24
this isn't wrong then nothing is wrong
00:05:25
you know if there is such a thing as
00:05:27
objective morality I find it very I mean
00:05:28
look we just condemn
00:05:30
the Canaanites in part for you know they
00:05:32
were killing
00:05:34
children that's exactly what God ordered
00:05:36
the Israelites to do when they came into
00:05:38
their nation and and we say okay well
00:05:39
these people were sinful idolatrous and
00:05:43
they should have repented well the same
00:05:44
is true of the Israelites they were
00:05:46
sinful they were idolatrous and yet they
00:05:48
had the benefit of having the prophet of
00:05:50
God come to them with literal stone
00:05:52
tablets telling them what to do and even
00:05:54
then it took them a few tries to get
00:05:56
right the Canaanites didn't have that MH
00:05:58
and yet were in the Israelites are
00:06:00
sinful they get a prophet who comes and
00:06:02
sets them straight when the Canaanites
00:06:03
are sinful they get obliterated they get
00:06:06
exterminated they get chased out just
00:06:08
the same way the Israelites were at
00:06:10
first the hands of the Assyrians and
00:06:12
then the Babylonians true but it was
00:06:13
wrong for the Assyrians to do that it
00:06:14
was wrong for the Babylonians to do that
00:06:17
yeah but the Old Testament insists that
00:06:19
that was part of God's judgment on the
00:06:21
Israelites for them doing the child
00:06:23
sacrifice Temple prostitution
00:06:26
idolatry God you know so it's not it's
00:06:29
God
00:06:30
it gets often it gets back to does God
00:06:32
have the right to judge yes he judged
00:06:33
the Canaanites but then remember a few
00:06:36
hundred years later he judged the Jews
00:06:38
first at the hands of the Assyrians and
00:06:39
then the Babylonians so I I wanted to
00:06:40
talk about the hyperbole thing right
00:06:42
because maybe we're not talking about
00:06:44
killing everybody maybe or obviously not
00:06:47
because they Ur in the next book to to
00:06:50
but okay so for example uh in the
00:06:53
destruction of I um 12,000 people fell
00:06:59
that day all the people of I that's
00:07:01
what's said uh in the Book of Joshua now
00:07:04
maybe all the people of I is like an
00:07:06
exaggeration but 12,000 people it's
00:07:09
pretty specific it'd be a weird thing to
00:07:11
be doing as hyperbole right we have a
00:07:12
number of people 12,000 people we know
00:07:15
it's men we know it's women we know it's
00:07:16
children are slaughtered we know that
00:07:18
that's not hyperbole we know that
00:07:19
thousands of men were killed we know
00:07:23
that it I should I should qu I don't
00:07:26
want to get this wrong perhaps we should
00:07:27
um look at the text yes so in
00:07:30
um in Joshua chapter 8 when Israel had
00:07:34
finished killing all of the men of eye
00:07:36
in the fields and in the wilderness
00:07:38
where they had chased them and when
00:07:40
every one of them had been put to the
00:07:41
sword all of the Israelites returned to
00:07:44
I and killed those who were in it 12,000
00:07:47
people fell that day 12,000 men and
00:07:49
women fell that day all the people of I
00:07:51
so we know that women are being killed
00:07:52
non-combatants being killed we know that
00:07:54
there are thousands of them we also know
00:07:56
that there were people who had left
00:07:58
they'd run into the world Wilderness
00:07:59
they were out of the promised land but
00:08:01
the Israelites chased after them and
00:08:03
killed them in the wilderness and it
00:08:04
says all of them were put to the sword
00:08:06
maybe that's an exaggeration maybe that
00:08:07
some of them ran away maybe all of the
00:08:09
ones that they captured were put to the
00:08:11
sword but some of them managed to
00:08:12
actually run away and those are the
00:08:14
people who show up in the next chapter
00:08:15
but it's only because you know for want
00:08:17
of trying that they managed to survive
00:08:19
but maybe it is just hyperbole but we
00:08:21
know that 12,000 people were killed we
00:08:22
know that the Israelites then turned
00:08:23
around after killing the fleeing
00:08:25
combatants came back into the City and
00:08:27
killed who's left well who's left
00:08:29
the women the children the
00:08:31
disabled so even if there's some
00:08:34
hyperbole being involved here in terms
00:08:35
of the the complete destruction maybe
00:08:37
it's not a genocide but it certainly
00:08:40
still seems to be the kind of military
00:08:42
practice which if done today would see
00:08:44
you know condemnation and and a lot more
00:08:48
from you the United Nations um in 1
00:08:52
Samuel
00:08:54
um there's this again I I should read
00:08:56
the text to to be sure and and I do have
00:08:59
it have it written down
00:09:03
um this is the destruction of the
00:09:05
amalekites god issues the command now go
00:09:08
attack the amalekites and totally
00:09:10
destroy all that belongs to them do not
00:09:11
spare them put to the death men and
00:09:13
women children and infants cattle and
00:09:16
sheep camels and donkeys of course this
00:09:20
can't be literal because it's not just
00:09:22
the camels and sheeps and the donkeys oh
00:09:24
but you can leave the you know you can
00:09:25
leave the pigs or whatever sure this is
00:09:28
sort of like slightly rhetorical
00:09:30
language but it's very clear like leave
00:09:32
alive nothing that breathes kill the men
00:09:34
kill the women kill the kill the animals
00:09:36
kill the cattle and in fact when Saul
00:09:40
decides at the end of the battle to keep
00:09:42
alive the king take him as a hostage and
00:09:44
also keeps alive some of the animals to
00:09:47
sacrifice to to to slaughter as a
00:09:49
sacrifice to God what happens he's
00:09:53
condemned and and and God says the
00:09:56
scripture says that God regretted that
00:09:59
he made Soul King he regretted that he
00:10:01
made Soul King because he didn't follow
00:10:02
his command what command didn't he
00:10:04
follow that after wiping out the
00:10:06
amalekites he refused to also kill all
00:10:09
of the animals and he kept the king
00:10:10
alive as a hostage and that was enough
00:10:12
for God to say I regret that I ever made
00:10:14
Soul King because he didn't follow my
00:10:15
commands and so I understand that there
00:10:18
may be some hyperbole involved here but
00:10:20
in the case where Saul is punished
00:10:21
specifically not for killing all of the
00:10:23
animals it's hard for me to imagine like
00:10:25
how much scope there is for hyperbole
00:10:26
here in terms of um yeah undermining the
00:10:30
criticism that we are talking about the
00:10:32
slaughter of innocent people here it
00:10:35
shows the importance and just how clear
00:10:39
God wants to make it that Israelites are
00:10:42
to be set apart and a holy people and so
00:10:46
whether it's an ant or a soldier all the
00:10:50
way down we see with sinful human
00:10:53
beings just how easy it is for them to
00:10:56
slip
00:10:57
into prostitution but more so getting a
00:11:00
herum more so whatever this might be and
00:11:02
slip into a similation of some sort with
00:11:04
other
00:11:05
civilizations and so God has to act in
00:11:07
this kind of way however extreme it
00:11:09
seems to show them whether it's achin
00:11:11
later on in Acts chapter 5 for example
00:11:14
the Temptation and how quick this
00:11:16
happens it's such a slippery slope where
00:11:17
God is saying here's the line and we
00:11:20
have to do away with any level of
00:11:22
Temptation you talked about Temptation
00:11:23
earlier we know how easy is it to fall
00:11:25
prey to Temptation This is another thing
00:11:27
with University students and older
00:11:28
people the all they want to talk about
00:11:29
is Temptation and how easy it is to fall
00:11:31
typically into like porn addiction and
00:11:33
these kinds of things very similar to
00:11:34
what's going on there in terms of you
00:11:36
have to kill off any and everything
00:11:39
that's going to cause Temptation because
00:11:40
you are God's holy chosen people okay
00:11:43
well whoa isn't that really ethnocentric
00:11:46
does isn't that a big issue still I
00:11:48
don't see that in my mind because I
00:11:50
believe what's going on in the Old
00:11:52
Testament with the Israelite people is
00:11:54
probably the most exclusive inclusivity
00:11:58
you could ever
00:12:00
imagine which is God is this God of the
00:12:03
Israelites who are holy people who are
00:12:04
not supposed to mix at all even with an
00:12:06
animal of people of another civilization
00:12:09
so that's how exclusive they are but how
00:12:11
inclusive in the sense of they're a
00:12:14
light to all the nations and eventually
00:12:16
it's going to come through the Son of
00:12:18
God Jesus Christ who is literally
00:12:21
Samaritan child woman all the oppressed
00:12:23
people groups and zakus like we talked
00:12:26
about earlier Luke chapter 19 and SAR
00:12:27
tree who attacks probably very well
00:12:30
so it's a light to All Nations and that
00:12:33
separateness that word holy and
00:12:35
righteousness he takes so seriously and
00:12:37
so extreme I wish it wasn't that extreme
00:12:40
but it Stacks up to me it also makes
00:12:41
sense seeing how powerful human
00:12:43
Temptation really is and how hard it is
00:12:46
to restrain yourself do do you believe
00:12:49
that to be clear do do you believe that
00:12:52
innocent children were
00:12:55
killed by Israelites on the command of
00:12:58
God
00:13:01
think it's a historical fact I believe
00:13:03
that innocent children were killed by
00:13:05
Israeli bombs and they happen to be
00:13:08
Palestinians part of Hamas maybe or
00:13:10
Hezbollah I believe that there are
00:13:13
consequences to human decisions that
00:13:15
stretch down through the generations and
00:13:17
then impact a lot of innocent people and
00:13:19
I think we're a little naive if we think
00:13:21
that we can go into Iraq
00:13:23
or fight a desert storm and no innocent
00:13:26
people are going to be killed um it's
00:13:28
it's one of of the tragedies of War
00:13:30
which is a result of the sinful human
00:13:32
heart but but suppose you know the
00:13:35
Israeli government said leave alive
00:13:37
nothing that breathes kill kill the
00:13:39
soldiers but then once you've done that
00:13:40
turn around go back kill the women kill
00:13:42
the children kill their animals because
00:13:45
this land is yours mhm I think that
00:13:47
people would would would wouldn't be
00:13:50
satisfied yep on falling back on the
00:13:53
defense hey this is the consequence of
00:13:54
War this is what happens I think people
00:13:56
would say okay but the fundamental rule
00:14:00
of just War which I'm told is sort of
00:14:03
stems out of the Christian tradition is
00:14:06
you know proportionate response and and
00:14:09
yes and I agree with you okay but here
00:14:11
but here's another
00:14:13
problem God told
00:14:15
Abraham to take Isaac up on Mount Mariah
00:14:19
and sacrifice his
00:14:21
son now if someone interprets that as
00:14:23
being God's laying down wise principles
00:14:26
for good parenting there idiot sure yeah
00:14:30
that is not what Genesis chapter 2 is
00:14:32
communicating God gave Abraham a very
00:14:35
specific command and it was not to give
00:14:38
an example of wise parenting it was
00:14:41
Abraham who's number one in your heart
00:14:43
is it going to be God or is it going to
00:14:44
be your son who you going to build your
00:14:47
future on your son or me similarly what
00:14:51
Israel does there in the Old Testament
00:14:54
is not examples of just War Theory no it
00:14:58
is unique example of God using a
00:15:01
theocracy and we don't live in a
00:15:03
theocracy we don't have a theocracy in
00:15:04
Israel now we're definitely not a
00:15:06
theocracy in the United States or in UK
00:15:08
God using a theocracy to carve out a
00:15:11
land that he brings then Messiah into
00:15:13
that's a one-time deed because you're
00:15:15
absolutely right it is not an example of
00:15:17
just war no way MH I recoil at that as
00:15:21
you do I'm sure yeah because of course
00:15:23
the difference in this case is that you
00:15:24
have the orders from the top the top man
00:15:28
mm it's sort of if there is some
00:15:30
extraordinary circumstance in which this
00:15:31
kind of otherwise morally condemnable
00:15:33
Behavior can be justified you better
00:15:37
have the authority to know that you're
00:15:38
making the right decision and in this
00:15:39
case you know the Christian will be able
00:15:41
to say that they did have that Authority
00:15:43
but I mean it's it's a struggle you know
00:15:47
yes it is we're talking
00:15:48
about the intentional killing of
00:15:51
non-combatant children here we're talk
00:15:54
and and I read this text as a land
00:15:57
dispute I read in
00:16:00
Deuteronomy where God gives instructions
00:16:03
when you march uh up onto a city to
00:16:06
attack it like in in in the in the broad
00:16:08
sense um when you march up to attack a
00:16:11
city make its people an offer of peace
00:16:14
if they accept and open their Gates all
00:16:16
the people in it shall be subject to
00:16:18
forced labor and shall work for you some
00:16:20
peace if they refuse to make peace and
00:16:23
engage you in battle which you know
00:16:25
isn't entirely unreasonable given what
00:16:26
the terms of Peace are lay waste lay
00:16:29
siege that City when the Lord your God
00:16:32
delivers it into your hand put to the
00:16:33
sword all the men in it as for the women
00:16:36
the children and the livestock and
00:16:37
everything else in the city you may take
00:16:39
these as plunder for yourselves and you
00:16:41
may use the plunder the Lord gives you
00:16:43
from your enemies this is how you are to
00:16:45
treat the cities that are at a distance
00:16:47
from you and do not belong to the
00:16:49
Nations nearby women and children being
00:16:51
described as plunder plunder that can be
00:16:53
used because God has given them to you
00:16:55
as plunder but of course those are the
00:16:58
people who you're attacking not because
00:16:59
they're in the promised land and it's
00:17:01
just well it's look we gave them a
00:17:03
chance to leave what are we supposed to
00:17:05
do this is God's chosen no these are
00:17:06
these are other cities because it goes
00:17:09
on however in the cities of the Nations
00:17:11
the Lord your God is giving you as an
00:17:14
inheritance do not leave alive anything
00:17:16
that breathes completely destroy them
00:17:18
the Hittites the amorites the Canaanites
00:17:20
and lists you know the
00:17:23
jitesh has commanded you otherwise they
00:17:25
will teach you to follow all detestable
00:17:27
things that they do in worshiping their
00:17:28
God
00:17:30
and you will sin against the Lord your
00:17:31
God so clearly what you're saying about
00:17:33
them being these detestable characters
00:17:34
and God is issuing his judgment must be
00:17:36
true here because it's saying like
00:17:37
otherwise if you don't destroy them
00:17:39
completely you know they will they will
00:17:41
teach you their ways you will fall into
00:17:42
sin but this idea of you know marching
00:17:47
up to a city and even if they accept you
00:17:51
they're going to become you know your
00:17:52
your indentured servants and if they
00:17:55
don't then you may take the women and
00:17:57
children as plunder and you may use use
00:17:59
the plunder the Lord gives you but of
00:18:01
course if you're marching into a city of
00:18:02
one of the Nations that you've been
00:18:03
promised by God oh then don't leave live
00:18:05
anything that breathes kill all of the
00:18:06
children kill all of the women I
00:18:09
mean I it's the difference there in
00:18:12
other words about like the the people in
00:18:14
the inherited lands and the people
00:18:15
outside of it tells me that the the
00:18:18
explanation for why these people need to
00:18:19
be completely and utterly destroyed is
00:18:22
because this is our land you know we
00:18:25
want this land seems to be and when I
00:18:28
when I read about somebody intentionally
00:18:30
driving out or killing nations of people
00:18:33
so that they can sort of essentially
00:18:35
ethnically cleanse a land I don't know
00:18:37
what else to call that other than a
00:18:39
genocide but it's still eventually the
00:18:41
point is to welcome them in and it's not
00:18:43
like they're going to sit in the land
00:18:44
flowing with milk and honey forever and
00:18:47
again be God's chosen people and that's
00:18:49
it so that's one secondly we're reading
00:18:53
this again from our 21st century
00:18:56
judeo-christian lens so your outrage and
00:18:59
indignation over this is entirely
00:19:01
Christian that's why the Bible is self-
00:19:03
critiquing which I love about it thirdly
00:19:07
putting to the sword even women and
00:19:09
children as messed up as that sounds
00:19:11
many would say that that was actually
00:19:13
more gracious in that time period than
00:19:15
other civilizations who rape they're
00:19:19
raped the rest of their lives right and
00:19:21
just horrific things that are
00:19:22
unimaginable to us so that's another
00:19:25
really important thing to remember and
00:19:26
then I lastly the one one you got to
00:19:29
wrestle with is okay so in an ancient
00:19:31
near Eastern culture you're looking for
00:19:34
God to act in a very Humane kind of way
00:19:37
all right to what extent and what extent
00:19:39
does free will come into play as well
00:19:41
not just not just the evil heart of
00:19:44
humankind but how exactly do you want to
00:19:46
play God because I want to play God too
00:19:48
in those passages but what does that
00:19:50
look like what specifically does that
00:19:53
look like watch the full conversation
00:19:54
with cliff and Stewart by clicking the
00:19:56
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00:19:58
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00:20:00
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00:20:02
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00:20:04
see you in the next one
