Kidney Scientist Reveals What is Damaging Most People’s Kidneys
Summary
TLDRDr. Jacob Torres, a researcher at UCSB, shares insights on the broader aspects of metabolic health beyond the liver and mitochondria, emphasizing the kidneys' critical role. He explains that metabolism is the sum of cellular energy processes, with each organ system playing a part. While fatty liver and visceral fat are common concerns in poor metabolic health, Dr. Torres highlights kidney functions in metabolizing fats and regulating energy balance. The dialogue delves into how ketones can enhance kidney function, particularly in managing chronic conditions like polycystic kidney disease (PKD). This genetic disorder speeds kidney degeneration by forming cysts. Ketones offer potential benefits by supporting mitochondrial function and reducing inflammation. Additionally, dietary elements like oxalates may harm kidney health, yet strategies involving citrate and proper mineral intake could mitigate such damage. The discussion underscores the complexity of metabolism and organ interdependence.
Takeaways
- 🔋 Metabolism involves the energy processes of all organ systems, not just the liver and mitochondria.
- 💡 Every organ, including the kidneys, is crucial for maintaining metabolic health and energy balance.
- 🗣️ Cells communicate to maintain homeostasis, a concept central to understanding metabolism.
- 🦾 Ketones play a pivotal role by potentially improving kidney function, especially in genetic disorders like PKD.
- 🔍 PKD is characterized by uncontrolled cyst growth in kidneys, complicating chronic kidney disease (CKD).
- 🏃 Regular kidney function requires high energy, relying significantly on fatty acids and occasionally ketones.
- ⚠️ Oxalates, found in certain foods, can harm kidneys by forming hazardous crystals.
- 🥗 Strategies like calcium/citrate intake can prevent oxalate-induced damage in the kidneys.
- 🧠 Metabolic health requires a comprehensive understanding of how dietary choices affect various organ systems.
- ⚙️ Innovative formulations like KetoCitra might support kidney health by using ketones and citrate to prevent disease progression.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
Dr. Jacob Torus, a researcher at UC Santa Barbara, discusses the complexity of metabolism, highlighting that it's more than just energy production; it involves various organs and interactions among them. Instead of just focusing on organs like the liver, which plays a major role due to its regulation of fats and glucose, he emphasizes the importance of considering all organs due to metabolism's comprehensive role in maintaining homeostasis.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Metabolism acts as a homeostatic regulator, balancing signals among different cells. The communication between systems isn't binary; it involves a sensitization to Baseline levels which triggers cellular responses. While glucose is often highlighted as a key player in metabolic responses, other molecules like fats also contribute significantly. Even fasting acts as an important regulatory lever by affecting the homeostatic balance.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Addressing less-discussed organs like the kidneys, Dr. Torus points out that they consume a lot of energy due to their role in sodium and potassium regulation, thereby involving significant fat metabolism. They also regulate blood fatty acid levels by absorbing and releasing fatty acids as needed, which seems particularly critical in fasting states. Discussion also touches on whether fat or keto adaptation affects kidney function.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Dr. Torus suggests the possibility of 'fatty kidneys,' akin to fatty liver, which remain under-researched. He notes that while fatty droplets in organs are often viewed negatively due to associations with metabolic issues, they play crucial roles in energy regulation. Furthermore, mitochondria in kidneys are pivotal as they manage considerable fatty oxidation, using alternative cellular pathways for energy, especially under stress.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
The kidneys' energy-demanding role using fatty acids raises questions about their function in low-carb states. Torus hypothesizes potential effects on fluid regulation and muscle cramps. Low potassium levels, common in keto diets, alongside sodium glucose transporters in the kidneys, may influence these physiological aspects. He suggests that glucose might play a vital role in regulating homeostasis in low-carb scenarios.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Exploring ketones' impact, it's noted that kidneys are significant in ketone production even without dietary ketosis, second only to the liver. These ketones, produced mainly in fasting states, support kidney energy needs. The mechanisms include converting fatty acids to beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB), which the kidneys use for energy and systemic functions like increasing the glomerular filtration rate, thus improving kidney functions inherently.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Discussion on therapeutic aspects of ketones highlights their anti-inflammatory roles, particularly through the inhibition of the nlrp3 inflammasome and the modulation of macrophage activity. Such properties are beneficial in chronic conditions like polycystic kidney disease (PKD), where they impact mitochondrial function and inflammatory pathways, potentially slowing disease progression or preventing cyst formation post-injury.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
The talk reflects on Dr. Torus' research leading to the development of KetoCitra, a product combining BHB and citrate, showing potential in managing PKD by leveraging ketones' dual role in providing energy and reducing inflammation while preventing micro-crystal formation in kidneys, thus indicating broader applications even for general kidney health.
- 00:40:00 - 00:49:40
Discussion also touches on oxalates from dietary sources, their role in forming kidney stones, and the management of such deposits with citrate supplements. The damage from oxalates and other microcrystals, via free radical generation and inflammation, underscores the potential health benefits of interventions like KetoCitra for both PKD patients and broader populations interested in metabolic and kidney health.
Mind Map
Frequently Asked Question
What organs are essential for metabolic health?
The liver and mitochondria are often focused on, but other organs like the kidneys also play significant roles.
How do kidneys contribute to metabolic health?
Kidneys consume a lot of energy through fat metabolism and regulate blood fats, affecting overall metabolic health.
What role do ketones play in kidney health?
Ketones provide an energy source for kidneys and may help slow the progression of chronic kidney diseases.
How do oxalates affect the kidneys?
Oxalates can cause crystal formation in kidneys, potentially leading to injury and inflammation.
Can ketogenic diets harm kidneys?
While ketogenic diets have raised concerns about kidneys, research suggests ketones might actually support kidney function.
How does metabolism relate to organ systems?
Metabolism involves energy production and consumption processes occurring across all organ systems.
What are common molecules affecting metabolism?
Glucose and fats are primary contributors, but every molecule in the body plays a role in metabolism.
How do ketogenic diets improve kidney function?
They provide alternative energy sources and may reduce inflammation and cyst formation in conditions like PKD.
What is polycystic kidney disease (PKD)?
A genetic disorder causing cyst formation in kidneys, leading to chronic kidney disease.
What dietary strategies might support kidney health?
Consumption of calcium, citrate, and potassium can mitigate oxalate effects and support overall kidney function.
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CHAPTER 2: Anatomy, Posture, and Body Mechanics
- 00:00:00Dr Jacob torus you were a researcher
- 00:00:02over at University of California Santa
- 00:00:04Barbara you do a lot in the metabolic
- 00:00:05Health
- 00:00:07space let's talk some of the organs that
- 00:00:10we really look at generally speaking
- 00:00:12when we're looking at metabolic Health
- 00:00:14metabolic syndrome and whatnot I mean
- 00:00:15people focus on the liver they focus on
- 00:00:18the mitochondria in general but there's
- 00:00:20some other aspects that people might not
- 00:00:22be focusing on I mean can you give me
- 00:00:23sort of a big overhead overarching view
- 00:00:28of how some of these other organs might
- 00:00:29be involved in metabolic issues that
- 00:00:31people might not be thinking of yeah
- 00:00:34it's kind of that's a funny question I
- 00:00:35think CU you know everything is
- 00:00:37metabolism so metabolism is just the you
- 00:00:40know breakdown of energy energy and
- 00:00:42making energy making macro molecules
- 00:00:44like making proteins and carbohydrates
- 00:00:46and whatnot and so it's just the sum of
- 00:00:48of all the the reactions that are going
- 00:00:50on in the cell so every tissue
- 00:00:52participates in metabolism in some way
- 00:00:55so metabolic health is important to
- 00:00:57every single organ system and you know
- 00:00:59we focus on like particular systems
- 00:01:02themselves like you mentioned the liver
- 00:01:03because it's kind of the one that
- 00:01:05regulates the um you know fats in the
- 00:01:07body so we're like really concerned
- 00:01:08about it or glucose so you know it has
- 00:01:10these kind of like General markers that
- 00:01:12we are concerned with of energy but
- 00:01:14realistically every cell requires you
- 00:01:17know these molecules to make energy and
- 00:01:19perform their own metabolism and they're
- 00:01:20all talking to one another back and
- 00:01:22forth so I think that it's you know very
- 00:01:24simple to say is like all it's important
- 00:01:26to all systems and so if you zoom in on
- 00:01:28any one particular cellp type you're
- 00:01:30going to find a lot of interplay between
- 00:01:33the you know all these different systems
- 00:01:34talking to one another and that's really
- 00:01:36what metabolism is is that interplay
- 00:01:38interesting yeah I think people think
- 00:01:39metabolism they just think creating
- 00:01:41energy and that's it you know they don't
- 00:01:42think about the actual communication
- 00:01:44between this so what do you mean by
- 00:01:46communication between systems uh I mean
- 00:01:48obviously people are pretty familiar
- 00:01:50with fatty liver they're familiar with
- 00:01:52visceral fat they're familiar with that
- 00:01:54aspect of poor metabolic Health right
- 00:01:56but how does that play into these
- 00:01:58systems that are communicating with one
- 00:02:00another uh yeah so the way I always
- 00:02:02think about metabolism is it's it's a
- 00:02:04homeostatic regulator or it's always
- 00:02:06about homeostasis so finding that that
- 00:02:09like you know that balance between um
- 00:02:11signals right and so the way that cells
- 00:02:14work is they're not just these onoff
- 00:02:17systems where they like something comes
- 00:02:18in it's not binary not digital you know
- 00:02:20like we're kind of used to with
- 00:02:21computers and whatnot uh they're analog
- 00:02:24systems so a lot of inputs come in to
- 00:02:26create a like a a baseline level and
- 00:02:29it's it's a sensitization to that
- 00:02:31Baseline that kind of is what the cells
- 00:02:34are responding to so if you have a lot
- 00:02:36of glucose come in that change in
- 00:02:38glucose from Baseline is what the cell
- 00:02:40will then respond to it reaches some
- 00:02:42threshold and then that causes a signal
- 00:02:44and with if you have high glucose for a
- 00:02:46long time it has to move that that
- 00:02:48Baseline up so the homeostatic
- 00:02:50regulation is changed and so it's really
- 00:02:53just you know this inputs that come in
- 00:02:55are kind of detected against that
- 00:02:57Baseline and then the signal will out
- 00:02:59propagate depending on how far away from
- 00:03:01that Baseline it is and I would imagine
- 00:03:03that this signal can be disrupted in a
- 00:03:06lot of different Fashions not solely by
- 00:03:07glucose right I mean oh no it's every
- 00:03:09molecule is is performing this function
- 00:03:12yeah what uh I mean in your experience
- 00:03:14what are the more common ones obviously
- 00:03:15glucose is a big one because it's
- 00:03:17something that's you know talked about a
- 00:03:19lot and we see it a lot but I'm sure
- 00:03:21fats have a play here I'm sure specific
- 00:03:23types of saturated fats have a play I
- 00:03:25mean what what are some of the big ones
- 00:03:27the bigger levers that people could say
- 00:03:29okay yeah that has an impact on my
- 00:03:30metabolic Health yeah the the big levers
- 00:03:33of course like you mentioned glucose and
- 00:03:35fats are you know these are the energy
- 00:03:36molecules of course they have very big
- 00:03:38big they're big levers because they're
- 00:03:40the inputs that are constantly coming in
- 00:03:42um but you know like not eating is also
- 00:03:45a lever right because it's the exact
- 00:03:46it's the opposite of that effect and
- 00:03:48that's what causes the change in the
- 00:03:49homeostatic regulator as well it's
- 00:03:51either going too far in one way or too
- 00:03:53far in the other way and it's kind of
- 00:03:54that those are the interplay between
- 00:03:56them you know I don't want to get
- 00:03:57specific but yes there's many many molec
- 00:03:59UL that perform that function so the
- 00:04:01fats and the carbohydrates proteins
- 00:04:04those are all like the the macro
- 00:04:06molecules that we're very familiar with
- 00:04:07studying but realistically it's all of
- 00:04:10the substances that those are made out
- 00:04:11of are also playing that same role in
- 00:04:14regulation gotcha yeah so we start
- 00:04:16talking I mean you do a lot of research
- 00:04:18in the kidney realm yes this is very
- 00:04:21interesting to me I mean you don't hear
- 00:04:23the kidneys talked about a lot in the
- 00:04:25general I'm going to call it the
- 00:04:26metabolic sphere online right we've got
- 00:04:28people that talk about met Bic Health
- 00:04:30myself included and I know you know five
- 00:04:32six years ago I did some videos on you
- 00:04:34know the relationship with the ketogenic
- 00:04:37diet and and Kidney Health and that was
- 00:04:38about as far down the iceberg as I got
- 00:04:41but the more that I talk to people more
- 00:04:43that people talk to people from your lab
- 00:04:44I I start to understand okay there is a
- 00:04:46huge play with the kidneys and just our
- 00:04:49overall metabolic Health not just about
- 00:04:51you know your ability to filter an
- 00:04:53ability to pee I mean there's a lot more
- 00:04:55going on can you give me just like an
- 00:04:57overhead view of that and then we can
- 00:04:58double click on some stuff yeah I think
- 00:05:00it's funny it's uh you know what people
- 00:05:02like to rank the organ systems as the
- 00:05:04relative importance you know pretty all
- 00:05:06pretty Rel important they have like a
- 00:05:08you know each their own function um you
- 00:05:10know liver like you mentioned is very
- 00:05:12talked about with metabolism but the
- 00:05:14kidney is actually a very important part
- 00:05:16with overall metabolism it's and lot
- 00:05:18people don't know this but it actually
- 00:05:20consumes a lot of fat it's it's a very
- 00:05:22energy um very energy intensive organ
- 00:05:25because it does so much work all the
- 00:05:27time and specifically because it has to
- 00:05:29has theun function of the ATP a so the
- 00:05:32ATP Channel that's involved in sodium
- 00:05:34and potassium pumping it takes a lot of
- 00:05:37energy because it's always on and it is
- 00:05:39constantly um pulling ions out of a
- 00:05:42gradient so it takes a lot of energy so
- 00:05:44it's always running through through
- 00:05:46energy so it has a lot of mitochondria
- 00:05:48and it also is regulating the fat
- 00:05:50metabolism as well so you know for
- 00:05:53instance if you eat a very high-fat meal
- 00:05:55you have a lot of fatty acids in the
- 00:05:56blood the kidney actually will soak up a
- 00:05:58lot of those fatty acids into lipid
- 00:06:00droplets and then slowly release them
- 00:06:02back into circulation to kind of buffer
- 00:06:05the overall fat content of the blood so
- 00:06:07it's really interesting that is what
- 00:06:09does this is this accelerated in someone
- 00:06:11that's in a like a fasted State I mean
- 00:06:13as you have more you know liberation of
- 00:06:15fat so is it kind of regulating some of
- 00:06:17that yes it is wow that's wild so then
- 00:06:20if someone will
- 00:06:22say I want to go in a little bit of a
- 00:06:24different direction with this because
- 00:06:24it's interesting if someone would say
- 00:06:26fat adapted versus not fat adapted
- 00:06:28someone that is experienced with fasting
- 00:06:31versus not experienced with fasting or
- 00:06:33even the ketogenic diet or not
- 00:06:34experienced with the ketogenic diet like
- 00:06:35they don't have that level of Keto
- 00:06:37adaptation or fat adaptation does that
- 00:06:40change how the kidneys regulate can they
- 00:06:43is there enough of a communication to
- 00:06:45say hey these cells are pretty they have
- 00:06:47an affinity for fats or an affinity for
- 00:06:49ketones like is it going to regulate and
- 00:06:52liberate more does it communicate that
- 00:06:54way that's a good question I think that
- 00:06:56the the way that the the that the fat
- 00:06:58droplets are are happening in the kidney
- 00:07:00is just due to the amount of fat in the
- 00:07:02blood so if the serum concentration goes
- 00:07:04up then more fats will just end up in
- 00:07:06the in those um the kidney tissue so I
- 00:07:09don't know if there's like a specific
- 00:07:11regulator because that's not researched
- 00:07:12like the the data that I know about fat
- 00:07:15droplet accumulation and fatty acid
- 00:07:17regulation is very old old literature uh
- 00:07:20I don't know if anybody's actually
- 00:07:21looked at it now because now fat
- 00:07:22droplets are generally considered
- 00:07:24negative like they're not considered to
- 00:07:26be um something that's good it's a
- 00:07:28pathology a lot of times cuz it means
- 00:07:29fatty acids are very high in the blood
- 00:07:31so they end up getting pulled into the
- 00:07:32kidney or into the liver like with
- 00:07:34steatosis that kind of stuff so they end
- 00:07:36up being like negatively Associated but
- 00:07:39I think that they have a a positive
- 00:07:40function because the you know the the
- 00:07:42kidney needs fats to to operate so it's
- 00:07:45using those lipid droplets for energy or
- 00:07:47it's buffering the total fat in the
- 00:07:49blood so it has like this dual function
- 00:07:51under just normal conditions so is there
- 00:07:53such thing as a fatty kidney just like
- 00:07:55there's a fatty liver there must be I
- 00:07:57mean I assume so I assume under under
- 00:07:59pathological conditions you would
- 00:08:00probably see lipid droplets that are not
- 00:08:03just for energy because over time as
- 00:08:06metabolism gets um broken down like if
- 00:08:08somebody has a a defect in mitochondria
- 00:08:10they might accumulate these droplets and
- 00:08:13in and if they're not able to push them
- 00:08:14into mitochondri they actually go
- 00:08:16through another process that's um called
- 00:08:18Omega oxidation and into like a
- 00:08:20peroxisome so another organel in the
- 00:08:22cell that's can break down fats and that
- 00:08:25those can actually cause a lot of toxic
- 00:08:27byproducts and those are known to to
- 00:08:28show up in k disease after today's video
- 00:08:31I put a link down below for keto Citra
- 00:08:34keto Citra is the world's first and only
- 00:08:38nonprescription formula for the dietary
- 00:08:41management of polycystic kidney disease
- 00:08:44but also for some other potential
- 00:08:45chronic kidney conditions now the
- 00:08:47research comes out of the Willams Lab at
- 00:08:49a University of California Santa Barbara
- 00:08:51it's really interesting stuff
- 00:08:52essentially what they found is that
- 00:08:54there is a possibility that ketones can
- 00:08:57impact the progression of of chronic
- 00:09:00kidney disease and dietary intervention
- 00:09:02like a ketogenic diet can impact chronic
- 00:09:04kidney disease but what's interesting is
- 00:09:06beta hydroxy beate the main Ketone body
- 00:09:09and what is in keto Citra can provide
- 00:09:12the kidneys with an alternative fuel
- 00:09:14source this can take some of the stress
- 00:09:16off the kidneys and thereby potentially
- 00:09:19slow the progression of chronic kidney
- 00:09:21disease now additionally keto Citra also
- 00:09:23can bind to harmful dietary components
- 00:09:26so things that you might eat that would
- 00:09:28normally stress the kidneys it can B
- 00:09:29them and help get rid of them before
- 00:09:32they're actually absorbed making it so
- 00:09:35that there's less potential stress on
- 00:09:36the kidneys in the first place not to
- 00:09:38mention keto citric can also help stop
- 00:09:41the formation of what are called micr
- 00:09:42crystals these micr crystals can
- 00:09:44accumulate and ultimately lead to kidney
- 00:09:46stones so there's a multi-prong approach
- 00:09:48in which keto Citra is very fascinating
- 00:09:51helps with potential polycystic kidney
- 00:09:53disease it provides an additional fuel
- 00:09:55source for the kidneys themselves it may
- 00:09:58help the formation
- 00:09:59of the actual micr crystals that build
- 00:10:01up and turn into kidney stones and
- 00:10:03lastly it can help bind to harmful
- 00:10:05dietary components that can lead to
- 00:10:07kidney stress so I put a link down below
- 00:10:10and that is a 20% off discount link
- 00:10:12using Code Delow 20 for keto Citra so
- 00:10:17this is wild it's actually sincerely
- 00:10:19fascinating so does the kidney in
- 00:10:21essence from what you know does it
- 00:10:23operate almost as like a repository for
- 00:10:26those fats to drip them out or is it to
- 00:10:28say hey we need to bring levels down so
- 00:10:30is it or is it both sides of the think
- 00:10:32it's both so it can actually help
- 00:10:34regulate saying hey like if energy needs
- 00:10:37aren't met we need to you know release
- 00:10:38some or like I don't know if there's any
- 00:10:40literature on athletes in this
- 00:10:42particular case probably not but I mean
- 00:10:44it makes me wondering like okay training
- 00:10:46in a fasted State someone that's fat
- 00:10:48adapted okay like if you're you know you
- 00:10:50have a higher level of serum
- 00:10:51triglycerides and you're going to go
- 00:10:52ahead and like pull some into the
- 00:10:53kidneys and it's going to know how to
- 00:10:55release them based on intensity levels
- 00:10:58someone that has a like higher you know
- 00:11:00respiratory exchange rate or lower
- 00:11:01respiratory exchange rate at a higher
- 00:11:03intensity because they're better at
- 00:11:04using fats I don't yeah yeah you see
- 00:11:06you've already yeah this is why research
- 00:11:08is fascinating right because you get
- 00:11:10these questions come up like what is
- 00:11:11this actually doing like in practice and
- 00:11:13I haven't seen anything look like that
- 00:11:15because you'd have to do like a biopsy
- 00:11:18like you'd have to biopsy the kidney
- 00:11:19during these times to see it so it' be
- 00:11:21very hard to study without actually
- 00:11:23killing somebody or looking pulling the
- 00:11:26kidney out and looking at it so you
- 00:11:27could look at like um you know in
- 00:11:30animals it could be done potentially but
- 00:11:32it would be a very difficult study yeah
- 00:11:34yeah where does this you know start to
- 00:11:36come into play with someone that is
- 00:11:38maybe metabolically deranged or
- 00:11:41metabolically unhealthy like what does a
- 00:11:44healthy kidney do in this particular
- 00:11:46case versus an unhealthy kidney in this
- 00:11:49in this context yeah I think that just
- 00:11:51the normal normal way that the kidneys
- 00:11:53function is it's you know it's using a
- 00:11:54lot of fatty acids it's doing a lot of
- 00:11:57um you know a lot of sodium potass iium
- 00:11:59pumping like that's it you know it
- 00:12:01regulates all sorts of other solutes as
- 00:12:03well but it's just using that for energy
- 00:12:05cuz the mitochondria are such a big part
- 00:12:08of the kidney it's just able to do a lot
- 00:12:10of fatty acid oxidation so it's just
- 00:12:11burning through these fats under
- 00:12:14deranged conditions it means that these
- 00:12:15would be accumulate because there's
- 00:12:17mitochondrial damage and if that happens
- 00:12:19then you end up having to break down
- 00:12:21these fats in this alternative pathway
- 00:12:23and then those are all um oxidized you
- 00:12:26know compounds that come out of that and
- 00:12:28then those cause inflammation or they
- 00:12:30can they do a lot of other stuff too
- 00:12:32there's a lot of really interesting
- 00:12:33things that happen there depending on
- 00:12:34the type of fat that's getting oxidized
- 00:12:37in that pathway that is wild I mean
- 00:12:39think about so if someone is in a in a
- 00:12:41low carb State and this is going to
- 00:12:43sound tangential but it's going to come
- 00:12:44back okay someone's in a low carb State
- 00:12:47insulin levels are
- 00:12:49lower they're have a higher propensity
- 00:12:51for like muscle cramps things like that
- 00:12:54is there also a play with the kidneys
- 00:12:57there because I can speak from my own
- 00:12:59experience when I am very low carb I
- 00:13:01have a much higher propensity for muscle
- 00:13:04cramps and cramping in general so I
- 00:13:05would imagine there's some fluid
- 00:13:07regulation issue that's happening there
- 00:13:09and it doesn't matter how much salt I
- 00:13:11take in that doesn't just solve the
- 00:13:13issue right like the cramping will still
- 00:13:14happen because there's clearly you know
- 00:13:17some regulatory aspect that maybe is out
- 00:13:19of whack do things change in a low carb
- 00:13:22state with the kidneys or is it is it an
- 00:13:25energy you know there's so much more
- 00:13:27energy coming from a fat perspective
- 00:13:29effective can the kidneys say hey like
- 00:13:32our energy demand is so high that they I
- 00:13:34don't know if you get where I'm going
- 00:13:35with this yeah I I think what you're
- 00:13:36saying because like the you're talking
- 00:13:38about like I know when if you do like a
- 00:13:40ketogenic diet there's a tendency to get
- 00:13:42these cramps because of low sodium L
- 00:13:45potassium level like the disbalance
- 00:13:47between those twos and so I you know
- 00:13:49it's a good question I imagine there's
- 00:13:50probably a naturetic effect so you you
- 00:13:53know you're peeing out excess sodium
- 00:13:55that's like why you know adding sodium
- 00:13:57in is a big part of it I'm thinking
- 00:13:59about why that occurs I don't know
- 00:14:01exactly the mechanism of like why the
- 00:14:03carbohydrate part is important there but
- 00:14:05there is a sodium glucose transporter I
- 00:14:09mean that's what those the sglt
- 00:14:11Inhibitors are doing they're they're
- 00:14:13regulating that transport so I wonder if
- 00:14:15maybe there's a necessity for you know
- 00:14:18some glucose that's not being it's not
- 00:14:20doing the job it's supposed to do to
- 00:14:22help regulate the sodium pottassium
- 00:14:24balance that's actually interesting I
- 00:14:25don't know the answer to that one
- 00:14:27exactly yeah it's I mean I've thought
- 00:14:28about it lot because it's I find out
- 00:14:31though go back to the lab I'll figure it
- 00:14:33out I'm sure that's known I'm sure yeah
- 00:14:35it's I mean you think about like I have
- 00:14:37a history of kidney disease in my family
- 00:14:39so I uh my grandpa had one kidney his
- 00:14:42father had one kidney you know removed
- 00:14:44obviously and so I'm aware of that kind
- 00:14:46of stuff like when I'm I already have
- 00:14:49issues with fluid regulation to begin
- 00:14:51with I think I have I don't want to say
- 00:14:52have early stage kidney issues I don't
- 00:14:54but I've always been aware of that like
- 00:14:56my fluid regulation is a little bit off
- 00:14:58I've always been prone to cramping and
- 00:14:59in a lot of ways the ketogenic diet was
- 00:15:03helping me with overall fluid balance I
- 00:15:05was finding that I was like better
- 00:15:08because when I would with the exception
- 00:15:09of cramping under extreme conditions but
- 00:15:10that was something that I was just had a
- 00:15:12higher propensity at intense you high
- 00:15:15intensities then I would cramp more but
- 00:15:16generally speaking I wasn't urinating
- 00:15:19quite as much uh like once things
- 00:15:21stabilized and normally on a ketogenic
- 00:15:23diet like you find people start to you
- 00:15:24know there's less carbohydrates so
- 00:15:26there's going to be less water retention
- 00:15:28so people are usually peeing being a lot
- 00:15:29more especially with insulin levels
- 00:15:30being low so I've kind of found that
- 00:15:33that low carb State helps me regulate a
- 00:15:35little bit more but there's also some
- 00:15:38interplay between and I know like some
- 00:15:40of the stuff you've seen in in your lab
- 00:15:42as well with kidney function low carb
- 00:15:45States and also the effect of ketones
- 00:15:48themselves on the kidneys can you kind
- 00:15:50of give me an overview on that you want
- 00:15:52to know about ketones in the kidneys
- 00:15:53specifically yeah well okay CU you got a
- 00:15:55lot of people first of all a lot of
- 00:15:56people that think that being in ketosis
- 00:15:58is bad for the kidneys oh yeah which I
- 00:16:01found in my research over the last you
- 00:16:02know decade definitely or at least does
- 00:16:06not seem to be the case yeah but how do
- 00:16:09ketones affect the kidneys both positive
- 00:16:11and potentially negative yeah I think
- 00:16:13that they I think you're you talking
- 00:16:15about the keto acidosis issue I think
- 00:16:17that that's always been the like kind of
- 00:16:19the issue with when we talk about
- 00:16:20ketones is is the association of Keto
- 00:16:23acidosis which is the you know the
- 00:16:24metabolic state of when you're
- 00:16:26overproducing ketones even though
- 00:16:28there's High high glucose and high fatty
- 00:16:30acids in the blood that's like we see
- 00:16:32with diabetes so that's usually when
- 00:16:33ketones are bad because they're causing
- 00:16:35a um acidification of the blood and all
- 00:16:38sorts of other negative things but under
- 00:16:40normal conditions like I mentioned the
- 00:16:42the kidney is a very energy it's a very
- 00:16:44energy demanding organ so it uses fatty
- 00:16:47acids predominantly um at least parts of
- 00:16:50it so you know the kidney is divided in
- 00:16:52this like um you know what they call the
- 00:16:54nefron and so you have like a an input
- 00:16:56which is called the Glarus and things
- 00:16:58get filtered through that and then you
- 00:16:59have like a a part that goes down and
- 00:17:01then back up and then back around to
- 00:17:03make urine and each part of that that
- 00:17:05tubule has different types of cells that
- 00:17:07line it so some cells are more dependent
- 00:17:10on fatty acids that are further up on
- 00:17:12the at the beginning because they're
- 00:17:13doing a lot of the pumping and then
- 00:17:15later down they might be doing more
- 00:17:16passive collection so they don't have
- 00:17:18the same requirements and it turns out
- 00:17:20that like the upper part of those cells
- 00:17:22are actually making BHB so they're
- 00:17:25making ketones and then the ones at the
- 00:17:27bottom can use it
- 00:17:29and there's actually um changes in
- 00:17:31concentration along the nefron of BHP so
- 00:17:35you know the weird thing about nephrons
- 00:17:36is they're controlling like what solutes
- 00:17:39are in them because they're that's how
- 00:17:40you pull water out or pull um sodium and
- 00:17:42other solutes out it's changing the
- 00:17:44concentration as it goes down so you're
- 00:17:46kind of like getting more concentrated
- 00:17:48and then you come back up and then
- 00:17:49there's the concentration is changing
- 00:17:51and so it's this this is the that's why
- 00:17:53it takes so much energy is because
- 00:17:54you're trying to create a gradient and
- 00:17:55it turns out that like these cells are
- 00:17:57like making BHP it's going down and
- 00:17:59coming around and there's actually a
- 00:18:01mechanism to pull BHB back across the
- 00:18:05the the nefron because there's like a
- 00:18:07place it's a junction between the Glarus
- 00:18:10at the top and then the late nefron and
- 00:18:13that pulls it back in and it actually
- 00:18:15can increase the flow of things going
- 00:18:17through it because it's kind of
- 00:18:19perpetual energy device it's like a
- 00:18:21weird yeah it's using energy though it
- 00:18:22uses sodium to do this so it needs a
- 00:18:24needs energy put in to do it but then
- 00:18:27that that kind of increases is um the
- 00:18:29GFR or the glomular filtration rate
- 00:18:31that's how fast things are going through
- 00:18:33there it can kind of like increase that
- 00:18:34flow so ketones actually have a role in
- 00:18:37that function as well um so it's like
- 00:18:40one of the just things it does and so it
- 00:18:42looks like different parts of the nefron
- 00:18:44might be responding differently to
- 00:18:46ketones and that's just the um you know
- 00:18:49a very surface level thing right because
- 00:18:50ketones also have all these other
- 00:18:52functions so they you know they're they
- 00:18:54do more than energy I think that's
- 00:18:55always the big thing that's hard you
- 00:18:56know a lot people to understand is they
- 00:18:58really focus on that energy part which
- 00:18:59is a really important function but in
- 00:19:01the kidney it's likely that these other
- 00:19:03functions are more are probably more
- 00:19:05relevant than just the energy because
- 00:19:06they use fatty acids so much so if
- 00:19:09someone is even not in a dietary
- 00:19:11ketogenic State these nephrons are still
- 00:19:14producing BHB correct wow so it's just
- 00:19:17it's such a such an aerobic system that
- 00:19:20it's just like yeah it's actually the
- 00:19:22second um Ketone producing organ so the
- 00:19:25liver is like the primary organ that's
- 00:19:27like making the ketones during during
- 00:19:29fasting then the the kidneys is the
- 00:19:31second organ that makes ketones the most
- 00:19:33but those ketones that are produced in
- 00:19:35the kidneys are not liberated into the
- 00:19:36bloodstream are they localized they
- 00:19:38probably are and yeah they're probably
- 00:19:39because they're getting pulled back in
- 00:19:40through there's a transporter that
- 00:19:42specifically is for um you know the
- 00:19:44called monoc carox carboxilate so
- 00:19:47anything that looks like a ketone that
- 00:19:49has that same structure will get pulled
- 00:19:51back in and those are making a way into
- 00:19:53bloodstream I don't know what what
- 00:19:54amount it's quite a bit though it's I
- 00:19:56think there's this has been done many
- 00:19:58years ago in dogs they figured this out
- 00:20:00like how much of the kidney contributes
- 00:20:03to to the Ketone production it's not
- 00:20:05insignificant it's it's a very large
- 00:20:07amount jeez that's wild so it just if
- 00:20:09someone is in a nutritional ketogenic
- 00:20:12state do they potentially I don't know
- 00:20:14if there's any research on this become
- 00:20:16even more efficient at producing those
- 00:20:18in the kidney because we know that we've
- 00:20:20seen that like the liver becomes more
- 00:20:21efficient you know you just develop in
- 00:20:23the beginning when someone is doing say
- 00:20:25a ketogenic diet it's like they they
- 00:20:27start producing a almost too much in the
- 00:20:29way of ketones you have a bunch showing
- 00:20:30up at least in the urine and some you
- 00:20:32it's you have extra and then eventually
- 00:20:34you kind of find this efficiency and
- 00:20:36that's usually just because you're
- 00:20:37producing it more efficiently so do you
- 00:20:38notice that in the kidneys as well I
- 00:20:40don't know because that hasn't been I
- 00:20:42haven't seen a research looking at that
- 00:20:44specifically I would assume so just
- 00:20:46because of adaptation purposes like why
- 00:20:48wouldn't it get better at it you know
- 00:20:50probably the protein expression of those
- 00:20:52particular enzymes would go up that's
- 00:20:53just a really that's another one of
- 00:20:55those homeostatic regulator things yeah
- 00:20:57so I imagine they would Happ yeah I find
- 00:20:59that super fascinating and you probably
- 00:21:01don't know the answer to this but I'm
- 00:21:03say because this is where my brain is
- 00:21:04going I find it interesting because okay
- 00:21:06it's say someone
- 00:21:08becomes keto adapted or they develop
- 00:21:10this efficiency and then they cycle off
- 00:21:13of a ketogenic diet and they've
- 00:21:16potentially retained some of that
- 00:21:17efficiency where these nephrons are
- 00:21:19still able to produce high amount of
- 00:21:21keton ketones potentially increasing
- 00:21:23kidney function even in the absence of
- 00:21:26dietary ketosis I would think so I think
- 00:21:29that that's like a pretty pretty well
- 00:21:31established function like whenever you
- 00:21:32gain adaptations you generally don't
- 00:21:34lose all your adaptations just in you
- 00:21:36know you know with exercise you know you
- 00:21:39work out a lot you stop working out for
- 00:21:40a few weeks it doesn't just go away or a
- 00:21:42few months you know and you might lose a
- 00:21:44lot of what you gain but you still have
- 00:21:45like some adaptations like structural
- 00:21:47things like bone density and stuff they
- 00:21:49don't just go away that's a good point
- 00:21:51yeah similar I think so for kidneys and
- 00:21:53just for the and for the sake of people
- 00:21:54that are watching and listening I mean
- 00:21:56even even from the sake of like
- 00:21:58mitochondri density it's like it doesn't
- 00:21:59that doesn't just go away you know
- 00:22:01really quick so if you do a lot of
- 00:22:03aerobic exercise or you go through a
- 00:22:05training block for a couple of years
- 00:22:06where you've established really good
- 00:22:08metabolic health and mitochondrial
- 00:22:09Health it's not like that just
- 00:22:10disappears overnight like you've
- 00:22:12retained some of those adaptations and
- 00:22:14it's going to take time the only reason
- 00:22:15I say that is just so that this doesn't
- 00:22:17sound completely Greek to people when
- 00:22:18they're thinking like what adaptations
- 00:22:20are we talking about in the kidneys yeah
- 00:22:21I I just published um one of the figures
- 00:22:24in my most recent publication was
- 00:22:26showing that mitochondrial number goes
- 00:22:29up so just we're able to count you know
- 00:22:31look at the copy number of DNA and the
- 00:22:33in the kidneys and we were able to show
- 00:22:35that with BHB that the mitochondrial
- 00:22:38number increases really yeah do you have
- 00:22:41you noticed that same thing uh or is
- 00:22:44there any research on exercise and
- 00:22:46mitochondrial density in the kidneys not
- 00:22:48that I can find but I imagine it has to
- 00:22:50has to happen yeah I'd have to look for
- 00:22:52it my mind is actually pretty blown
- 00:22:55because it's like I just have never
- 00:22:56thought of you know it obious L makes
- 00:22:58sense when it's spelled out for you you
- 00:23:01look at this you're like of course it
- 00:23:02makes sense but I've never thought of
- 00:23:03the kidneys as this metabolic arm as
- 00:23:06such right like okay like you're
- 00:23:07exercising it's good for your muscles
- 00:23:09it's good for your heart it's good for
- 00:23:10the mitochondria here but you don't
- 00:23:12think about how it's improving like
- 00:23:13these independent organ systems and and
- 00:23:16whatnot so where in this place could
- 00:23:20let's say someone's not doing a
- 00:23:21ketogenic diet because we have a lot of
- 00:23:23people that watch and listen that do not
- 00:23:25follow that or have never done it are
- 00:23:27there ways to get similar effects like
- 00:23:31even the use of exogenous ketones or
- 00:23:34forms of Ketone salts or monoesters or
- 00:23:36anything like that does that have an
- 00:23:38impact if someone will say Okay I want
- 00:23:40to have this effect of ketones on my
- 00:23:43kidneys uh but I don't necessarily want
- 00:23:45to do a ketogenic diet like is there a
- 00:23:47plate there yeah I think so and all I
- 00:23:50have is information from you know animal
- 00:23:52research that I've done so I know that
- 00:23:55there is an effect similar to that so I
- 00:23:57just presented a poster recently at the
- 00:23:59aps conference down in went to Long
- 00:24:01Beach a few weeks ago and that was what
- 00:24:03one of the things I was presenting on
- 00:24:05was the effects of timered feeding and
- 00:24:08periodic fasting and then showing that
- 00:24:11we were able to give BHB to the the
- 00:24:13animals and recapitulate a lot of those
- 00:24:16findings so we a lot of the same things
- 00:24:18that happened from the fasting also
- 00:24:20could happen from BHB as well look like
- 00:24:22very similar effects and it means that
- 00:24:25we don't know like all the effects of
- 00:24:26fasting or all the effects that are the
- 00:24:28same but many of the ones that we're
- 00:24:30looking at in our we're studying a
- 00:24:31disease model you know I study
- 00:24:33polycystic kidney disease so
- 00:24:35specifically I'm looking at um primary
- 00:24:37outcomes of that disease model and a lot
- 00:24:39of them are are recreated by BHB so I
- 00:24:43think that there is a potential for you
- 00:24:44know to have
- 00:24:45bhpv supplement or somebody could use it
- 00:24:48and have a lot of the same effects and I
- 00:24:50know I mean even though polycystic
- 00:24:52kidney disease is a very niched piece to
- 00:24:55talk about I think it illustrates
- 00:24:58potential that ketones may have because
- 00:25:00it's just the tip of the iceberg right
- 00:25:02it's just like where there has been some
- 00:25:03niched research there can you explain
- 00:25:06how polycystic kidney disease and the
- 00:25:08relationship with ketones there can you
- 00:25:09explain what polycystic kidney disease
- 00:25:11is that's proba a good place to start
- 00:25:12and how ketones have that effect on them
- 00:25:14or have an effect on them yeah so I'll
- 00:25:16call it PKD it's just easier to say so
- 00:25:18PKD is a a a genetic form of chronic
- 00:25:22kidney disease and so chronic kidney
- 00:25:24disease is this Progressive disorder
- 00:25:26everybody has chronic kidney disease
- 00:25:27just how fast do you progress right some
- 00:25:29people progress much faster so we're all
- 00:25:31going to die eventually I think and you
- 00:25:33know one of the reasons is because
- 00:25:35kidney function just you know over time
- 00:25:37gets worse and worse because it's just
- 00:25:39life is hard you know you have to deal
- 00:25:40with a lot of stuff as a kidney um so
- 00:25:42chronic kidney disease is like that
- 00:25:44acceleration so some event occurs like
- 00:25:46an injury to the kidney and then um you
- 00:25:49end up with like a lot of scarring so
- 00:25:51fibrosis or Lo and that causes loss of
- 00:25:53kidney function a little bit at a time
- 00:25:55and over time that kind of builds up and
- 00:25:57then you have fewer and those nephrons
- 00:25:59to actually do the filtering and then it
- 00:26:01it it becomes harder and harder to for
- 00:26:03your kidneys to function and then you
- 00:26:05know the the end of the that course is
- 00:26:07um renal failure so you end up with
- 00:26:10endstage renal disease and you need a
- 00:26:11kidney transplant that's kind of the end
- 00:26:13and polycystic kidy disease it's a
- 00:26:15genetic form of that that that progress
- 00:26:18so there's a a rap more rapid
- 00:26:20progression because of the genetic
- 00:26:22component so people will you know live
- 00:26:25their life not knowing they have
- 00:26:26polycystic kidney disease and then at
- 00:26:28some point they end up you know finding
- 00:26:30out that hey my kidney function is
- 00:26:32declining but the reason it's happening
- 00:26:34is because they're they're accumulating
- 00:26:35these large cysts on their kidney and
- 00:26:38they're starting to replace the normal
- 00:26:40healthy tissue and then that's the loss
- 00:26:42of the nefron so they get the chronic
- 00:26:44kidney disease phenotype where they're
- 00:26:46just slowly progressing as these cyst
- 00:26:48start to accumulate on the kidney so
- 00:26:51that's kind of like the the relationship
- 00:26:53between the two it's just a genetic form
- 00:26:55of chronic kidney disease is is the way
- 00:26:56to think about it okay so it's just yeah
- 00:26:59almost an accelerated in a way
- 00:27:01accelerated aging even though it's not
- 00:27:02actual aging so cyst formation that I
- 00:27:05mean anybody can make cysts in their in
- 00:27:07their kidneys that's part of the like
- 00:27:09the research is understanding like what
- 00:27:11are cysts why are they being formed um
- 00:27:13because some individuals you know will
- 00:27:15go to get a a scan of their kidneys and
- 00:27:18they'll be a cyst or or whatnot and
- 00:27:20they'll be like why why did this happen
- 00:27:22it's and it seems to be an injur
- 00:27:23response so it's some sort of repair
- 00:27:26that you know maybe you need to wall off
- 00:27:28an area that there's something that the
- 00:27:29kidney can't deal with so it makes a
- 00:27:31cyst around it and it can't it no longer
- 00:27:33can like deal with it has no other
- 00:27:35mechanism to deal with it so it makes
- 00:27:36these cysts and so it's probably
- 00:27:38something like that that's probably just
- 00:27:39some abent injured response that's in
- 00:27:41PKD do uh I mean in the case of not in
- 00:27:44the case of PKD but if someone's just
- 00:27:46developing a cyst is that usually that
- 00:27:48cyst is there or do they eventually go
- 00:27:50away or usually they stick around yeah I
- 00:27:52think that's the issue with is they
- 00:27:54don't usually do not go back they once
- 00:27:55you have the cyst there's you kind of
- 00:27:57just stays there it might get smaller or
- 00:27:59larger but it's um it'll just kind of
- 00:28:01stay in one spot but I mean for all
- 00:28:03intents and purposes when you develop a
- 00:28:04cyst I mean that is a portion sometimes
- 00:28:07I'll be at a small percentage of kidney
- 00:28:10function that you essentially lose yes
- 00:28:11you lose some portion of it because
- 00:28:13there the cyst comes from the the nefron
- 00:28:15itself so the cells one of the cells
- 00:28:17inside that nefron will then start to
- 00:28:20propagate and then it makes it like a
- 00:28:22clone of it makes that cyst interesting
- 00:28:24and then it just kind of pinches itself
- 00:28:26off and then now you've have that nefron
- 00:28:27is dead ends and then you have a cyst
- 00:28:30that kind of is off of the side to it
- 00:28:32and then with polycystic kidney disease
- 00:28:33that's just happening at just kind of a
- 00:28:35rapid almost genetic mutated rate yes
- 00:28:37it's happening um very quickly and and I
- 00:28:40think with our research you know the
- 00:28:41research that I've been doing in our lab
- 00:28:43is that um it's kind of we think that
- 00:28:46injury is the real culprit it's not the
- 00:28:49genetic component alone it's you need
- 00:28:51another thing to happen a triggering
- 00:28:54event to to initiate the cyst gotcha so
- 00:28:57where does BHB potentially play to this
- 00:29:00is it just making it more efficient for
- 00:29:03the kidney to operate with less function
- 00:29:06so the way it plays in is there's many
- 00:29:09many facets here so the the main thing
- 00:29:11is that PKD is is not just a this
- 00:29:14disease of of um of this one mutation
- 00:29:17well there many mutations I'll just say
- 00:29:19there lots of different things that can
- 00:29:20cause it but um it also causes
- 00:29:22mitochondrial dysfunction so you have a
- 00:29:26change in the morphology of mitochondria
- 00:29:28and then you have a loss total loss of
- 00:29:30the number of mitochondria and you have
- 00:29:31a shift over to glycolysis is like the
- 00:29:34primary Energy System that this is
- 00:29:37happening and the reason um you know
- 00:29:39that's like kind of like an injury
- 00:29:41response all cells kind of do this under
- 00:29:44injury um systems is because of
- 00:29:46inflammation so if you have an
- 00:29:47inflammatory response cells kind of
- 00:29:50switch over to this glucose mechanism
- 00:29:53that's just kind of like a normal thing
- 00:29:54that happens um but the cells never kind
- 00:29:56of go out of that so they stay in that
- 00:29:58state and they kind of propagate
- 00:30:00inflammation and it keeps more and more
- 00:30:02inflammation occurs over time and that's
- 00:30:04what causes I think a lot of the injury
- 00:30:06and then the cyst formation and BHB or
- 00:30:09ketones in like I guess we'll talk I'll
- 00:30:11talk about primary like BHB is that it
- 00:30:14can have a lot of anti-inflammatory
- 00:30:15effects and so they um it does this
- 00:30:18through a variety of ways and one of
- 00:30:20them is that it can you know affect
- 00:30:22macrofagos so maccrage is the white
- 00:30:24blood cells that are um you know
- 00:30:26surveiling the kidney they kind of go
- 00:30:27around they're a big part of the
- 00:30:29inflammatory response they seem to be
- 00:30:31really really critical for progression
- 00:30:33of PKD and so BHB can actually affect
- 00:30:37their switching so they have have
- 00:30:40different modes that they can exist in
- 00:30:42so they can exist in kind of like a uh
- 00:30:44surveilling mode and then like a very
- 00:30:46active repair or injury mode and BHB
- 00:30:50affects that switch between the two so
- 00:30:52it's it's acting on immune cells in that
- 00:30:54way it acts on all immune cells in
- 00:30:55different ways but specifically macro
- 00:30:58stages so that can stop progression that
- 00:31:00way and then you have a mitochondrial
- 00:31:03effect so it could be helping with you
- 00:31:05know kind of making it easier to make
- 00:31:07energy through mitochondria it also
- 00:31:09seems to have some effects on um
- 00:31:11changing the cell over to fatty acid
- 00:31:14metabolism by interacting with
- 00:31:16particular proteins that are called
- 00:31:18transcription factors and they kind of
- 00:31:20turn on the genes that are involved in
- 00:31:22fatty acid metabolism so those also seem
- 00:31:24to go down in kidney disease chronic
- 00:31:26kidney disease or PKD and it can
- 00:31:29actually like turn that those like those
- 00:31:31on genetically so then they start to be
- 00:31:33expressed more so talking like par P yes
- 00:31:37exactly so that's I mean it's just so
- 00:31:40funny because people I've just seen it
- 00:31:42been being in the keto world for you
- 00:31:43know over a decade just you know oh
- 00:31:46don't do that it's going to be bad for
- 00:31:47your kidneys and I'm just kind of like
- 00:31:48almost laughing on the inside because
- 00:31:49it's like this is one of the better
- 00:31:51things it's probably one of the better
- 00:31:53things yeah so yeah from the
- 00:31:54inflammatory standpoint I mean you've
- 00:31:56done a lot of research just BHB in the
- 00:31:58first
- 00:32:00place is it mainly in lrp3 inflammosome
- 00:32:03is that kind of the the effect there you
- 00:32:05know about BHB also inhibits the nlrp3
- 00:32:08inflammosome then yeah so is that is
- 00:32:10that the switching that you're kind of
- 00:32:11talking about there or a different
- 00:32:12element so that's a different thing yes
- 00:32:15but that's another big part of it that's
- 00:32:17that would be in the cells of the kidney
- 00:32:20so the epithelial cells that those that
- 00:32:22would be very important there got it
- 00:32:24because the nlrp and thre if people
- 00:32:26aren't familiar that that's the
- 00:32:28initiator for like the um is and beta c
- 00:32:31yeah all that c base pathway that's
- 00:32:33involved in kind of like
- 00:32:34pro-inflammation secreting the cyto
- 00:32:36kindes that then activate the
- 00:32:38inflammatory response in cells nearby
- 00:32:40and BHB directly inhibits the nlrp3 so
- 00:32:43it prevents that Downstream Cascade and
- 00:32:46so that alone will stop the like
- 00:32:49progression of injury that's one thing
- 00:32:51in the macras is they actually have a
- 00:32:54receptor um it's called GPR 109a it's a
- 00:32:57it's a a receptor for VHB this is a
- 00:32:59receptor exists on many different cells
- 00:33:01but in the macras specifically this
- 00:33:02seems to be really important for the
- 00:33:04type switching effect interesting yeah
- 00:33:07is that uh the effect of what is it uh
- 00:33:09it's a hard word to say beta hydroxy
- 00:33:12bation oh yeah bation that's the easy
- 00:33:15way to say yeah when you start getting
- 00:33:17so that's a different that is a
- 00:33:18different thing so I know that was
- 00:33:20something that was where you're almost
- 00:33:20starting to develop an affinity where it
- 00:33:22can kind of use that so I guess my
- 00:33:24question with this is where I'm
- 00:33:26interested for years and years in the
- 00:33:28world of Keto I was always interested in
- 00:33:31the anti-inflammatory effect right and
- 00:33:33even in my like early years of probably
- 00:33:35being a little too Cavalier with how I
- 00:33:36would talk about things you know I kind
- 00:33:38of thought there was this like
- 00:33:39overarching anti-inflammatory effect but
- 00:33:42is it pretty localized when you kind of
- 00:33:44see that happening as far as like the
- 00:33:46inflammosome is concerned like is it
- 00:33:48you're not just getting this General
- 00:33:49Cascade of reduced systemic inflammation
- 00:33:51in the body is it kind of happening in
- 00:33:54essence where you need it no it's I
- 00:33:56think that what you're describing is the
- 00:33:58reason that it would reduce it
- 00:34:00systemically cuz it's you're you're
- 00:34:02targeting the pathway that causes the
- 00:34:04release of cyto kindes and cyto kindes
- 00:34:07are they go into the circulation and
- 00:34:08they go in the tissue surrounding it and
- 00:34:10they just kind of make their way
- 00:34:12throughout the body so if you inhibit
- 00:34:14the the cells that are secreting those
- 00:34:16things then you can inhibit Global
- 00:34:18inflammation as well because you're just
- 00:34:20blocking the source so it it does both
- 00:34:23functions it is well I mean cuz you hear
- 00:34:25it when you talk to people right I mean
- 00:34:27it's like sometimes it's in the low carb
- 00:34:30space people come under attack a lot
- 00:34:33when they talk about like hey I felt so
- 00:34:35much better there's probably a million
- 00:34:37reasons why people feel better when they
- 00:34:38go on a ketogenic diet or when they just
- 00:34:40reduce the processed foods out of their
- 00:34:42diet in general but you know when people
- 00:34:44have metabolic issues and they have
- 00:34:47chronic inflammation and they see those
- 00:34:49numbers change and they feel different I
- 00:34:51mean it's hard to deny that right it's
- 00:34:52so um but specifically in the kidney
- 00:34:56level I mean how long does it typically
- 00:34:59take for someone to start to
- 00:35:01see pathological differences I mean like
- 00:35:03if they're actually like introducing
- 00:35:06ketogenic diet into the life or they're
- 00:35:07using some form of you know Ketone salts
- 00:35:10or whatnot is it a pretty quick thing
- 00:35:12pretty quick change that's a good
- 00:35:14question um I would think it's probably
- 00:35:17pretty quick I think that there's
- 00:35:19there's no reason to think that this
- 00:35:21signaling would events wouldn't start
- 00:35:22happening pretty rapidly I mean there's
- 00:35:24going to be differences of course
- 00:35:25between animals and humans I don't I
- 00:35:27know that like they've done research on
- 00:35:29like metabolic Health in people and
- 00:35:31seeing that within a few weeks of people
- 00:35:33that are like sedentary that don't have
- 00:35:35you know have very poor metabolic Health
- 00:35:37that they put them on like exercise
- 00:35:39regimens and are like you know
- 00:35:41increasing aerobic work they like see
- 00:35:43changes already happening because the
- 00:35:46the proteins they start to change they
- 00:35:48start to be made really quickly they're
- 00:35:50involved in like doing your metabolic um
- 00:35:52Machinery so I could see pretty rapidly
- 00:35:55that that would make it would make sense
- 00:35:57that they would to start to improve so
- 00:35:59yeah I don't have a direct I don't know
- 00:36:00like an answer like this many days or
- 00:36:02that but it's it's makes a lot of sense
- 00:36:04that it would happen very rapidly and as
- 00:36:06far as a there's a company called Santa
- 00:36:08Barbara nutrients that's done some work
- 00:36:11with this right I mean it's taken some
- 00:36:12of the research and it's kind of applied
- 00:36:14it in more of a practical application
- 00:36:15and I think that is first of all can you
- 00:36:17tell me a little bit about that what
- 00:36:20variation because I know it's it's using
- 00:36:21Ketone salts but I don't know if it's in
- 00:36:23a specific mineralized form that is
- 00:36:25specific for the kidneys yeah um first
- 00:36:28you a little bit about it but also just
- 00:36:30how it works yeah so yeah we started
- 00:36:33Center Robert nutrients because of some
- 00:36:35the research that I've been doing um you
- 00:36:37know at UCSB we've found that com
- 00:36:41combining a couple of other projects
- 00:36:43together to you know into one Mega
- 00:36:45project was was a good idea so I you
- 00:36:47know 2019 I had the paper on the ketosis
- 00:36:50and PKD that was the the one paper that
- 00:36:53we showed that when we gave bet hydroxy
- 00:36:56berate to the animals and that in that
- 00:36:58study that had prevented the progression
- 00:37:00of PKD and then we had another paper
- 00:37:02where we looked at microcrystal
- 00:37:04formation in kidneys accelerating PKD so
- 00:37:08we knew that if you give citrate to
- 00:37:11animals you can prevent the progression
- 00:37:13of PKD that was a very old literature
- 00:37:15that I was working off of there but we
- 00:37:16just have a mechanism and so we took
- 00:37:19those findings from those two papers and
- 00:37:21put them together to combine beta
- 00:37:23hydroxy berate and citrate together and
- 00:37:26we're we're hypothesized that that if we
- 00:37:27had them together that maybe we could
- 00:37:29lower the amount that you would have to
- 00:37:30give them in order to create like a
- 00:37:32synergistic effect and that paper got
- 00:37:35published last in December so I worked
- 00:37:37on that for quite a while but that
- 00:37:39during that time we had a patent we had
- 00:37:41a patent with UCSB and then we have a
- 00:37:44license to commercialize that that
- 00:37:46patent so we made keto Citra and keto
- 00:37:48Citra has been on the market for a few
- 00:37:50years now and it's formulated to have
- 00:37:53beta hydroxy berate and citrate together
- 00:37:56and so the ratio is based off of the the
- 00:37:58research that we did in the lab um and
- 00:38:02the idea is that we have no sodium
- 00:38:04because we sodium is involved in um you
- 00:38:07know worsening a progression at least in
- 00:38:09a lot of a lot of Studies have been done
- 00:38:10with PKD and we use calcium magnesium
- 00:38:14and potassium um potassium is is in
- 00:38:17there because that's you know very
- 00:38:19important for kidney function it's
- 00:38:21actually potassium is like I think
- 00:38:23woefully under under supplemented people
- 00:38:26usually have very low potassium
- 00:38:28when they actually need much more than
- 00:38:29they than they think they do um
- 00:38:32magnesium and the calcium are in there
- 00:38:34because those can Bine to um compounds
- 00:38:37in the in the gut that can cause kidney
- 00:38:40stones like oxalate that's a big one or
- 00:38:42phosphate so we think that those are
- 00:38:44kind of like able to prevent the
- 00:38:46formation of of these these crystals in
- 00:38:48the kidney and uh together you know the
- 00:38:51idea is that not only that they they
- 00:38:54provide Alkali base so phb is a salt so
- 00:38:57the salt will um increase the amount of
- 00:39:00um Alkali in the in the urine so that'll
- 00:39:03raise urine pH as well to prevent
- 00:39:05Crystal formation so all those things
- 00:39:07together are kind of and you know it has
- 00:39:08BHB and citrate citrate also binds to
- 00:39:11calcium in the in the urine so that
- 00:39:13prent you know the crystal formation so
- 00:39:15we have kind of like all these different
- 00:39:16approaches and then the BHB has all the
- 00:39:18mechanisms like I was talking about
- 00:39:19before plus many more that are
- 00:39:21undiscovered but it seems to be like
- 00:39:23those together caused the a synergistic
- 00:39:26effect in the animal models gotcha so
- 00:39:28originally it was I mean it was really
- 00:39:29sought out to be something for PKD in
- 00:39:33the first place I mean really just but
- 00:39:35is there an application uh potentially
- 00:39:37independent of that just for General
- 00:39:38Kidney Health I think so I I I might be
- 00:39:41biased but it's I think as a inventor I
- 00:39:44think it's I think it has the
- 00:39:46application just because um potassium
- 00:39:49has already been shown to be beneficial
- 00:39:51to kidneys on its own I think there's
- 00:39:53there's lots of research on just just
- 00:39:55supplementing potassium chloride as a as
- 00:39:57being beneficial for kidneys so that
- 00:39:59data already is plentiful lot people
- 00:40:02know that um the other part of it is The
- 00:40:04Alkali so if you just removed all the
- 00:40:06other ideas by just adding Alkali and
- 00:40:09potassium alone already would be
- 00:40:11significantly improving Kidney Health on
- 00:40:13them by themselves when you add Alkali
- 00:40:16to to kidneys you actually increase the
- 00:40:19amount of nadh that can be produced
- 00:40:21because you're changing the the barrier
- 00:40:24you're you're lowering the barrier to
- 00:40:25making more energy by increasing The
- 00:40:27Alkali in the in the cells so there's a
- 00:40:30lot of interesting research that's been
- 00:40:32shown that where you just add like
- 00:40:33bicarbonate to cells and they start to
- 00:40:35make like tons of more um in ADH really
- 00:40:38yeah just because of that alone so add
- 00:40:41increasing The Alkali in the in the
- 00:40:43urine is already good like that's
- 00:40:44already a good thing and then you add on
- 00:40:46top the um you know the prevention of
- 00:40:48microcrystals which I think we're all
- 00:40:50making these crystals like that's just
- 00:40:52part of the kidney's job is to filter
- 00:40:54and make the and um you know get rid of
- 00:40:57these solutes in there in that process
- 00:41:00you're going to make some of these
- 00:41:01crystals so having citrate available
- 00:41:03should just prevent that from being an
- 00:41:05issue so you'll prevent kidney injury on
- 00:41:07itself and then the BHB has all of these
- 00:41:11functions that are just like I mean
- 00:41:12they're very numerous so I think that
- 00:41:14there's no reason not to believe that
- 00:41:15that would have benefit in just normal
- 00:41:17kidneys I mean I don't see why not yeah
- 00:41:19you're getting I mean you're getting
- 00:41:20almost the energetic benefit the
- 00:41:22anti-inflammatory benefit the potential
- 00:41:25less injure effect right just by Ian so
- 00:41:28is the crystals themselves that actually
- 00:41:29have an injur effect did they yeah so
- 00:41:31the crystals have they have a few
- 00:41:34different ways that they cause injury
- 00:41:35and they they have um you there's
- 00:41:37there's probably a receptor for oxalate
- 00:41:40I haven't seen nobody knows exactly what
- 00:41:42it is but it probably has a receptor
- 00:41:43specifically that that causes the effect
- 00:41:46that causes a lot of free radical damage
- 00:41:48because it just blasts of free radicals
- 00:41:50as soon as that thing gets gets uh makes
- 00:41:52contact with cells and it activates the
- 00:41:54inflammosome and then has all of these
- 00:41:56effects of causing two wheel dilation
- 00:41:59and kidney injury just on itself just
- 00:42:01the the the crystal itself um so yeah I
- 00:42:04think that that's a that's a big thing I
- 00:42:06want to come back to to oxalates in just
- 00:42:08a second because that's something that
- 00:42:09people talk about a lot but I I went
- 00:42:11ahead I put a link down below for keto
- 00:42:13Citra as well so I mean and where can
- 00:42:15people where can people find it in
- 00:42:16addition to the link that's down below
- 00:42:18if this is something if they were
- 00:42:19looking for it yeah Santa Barbara
- 00:42:20nutrients.com is our our website that's
- 00:42:23where you can find it cool I'll link out
- 00:42:24to all that stuff down below so you guys
- 00:42:26can check it out um and again like it's
- 00:42:29something that well for what it's worth
- 00:42:32too there's also just the flat out
- 00:42:34effect of exogenous ketones that you
- 00:42:36would get out of this too so even if you
- 00:42:37were looking at it saying like hey this
- 00:42:39like Kidney Health isn't necessarily my
- 00:42:41focus maybe it's a secondary Focus there
- 00:42:43still the effect of having you know
- 00:42:45actually a non-salt form of BHB which is
- 00:42:47actually kind of nice because I know
- 00:42:48some people want to take exogenous
- 00:42:50ketones but they don't necessarily like
- 00:42:51a th000 milligram of sodium or something
- 00:42:52like that right so yeah um okay coming
- 00:42:56back to OIC acid or oxalates for a
- 00:42:58second M I know this might not be your
- 00:43:01wheelhouse but there's a lot of people
- 00:43:03obviously you've got the carnivore
- 00:43:04community that is very anti- oxalates m
- 00:43:08is the evidence strong or is it really
- 00:43:11really in its infancy when it comes down
- 00:43:12to consuming oxalates and how those can
- 00:43:16impact your kidneys and in turn have an
- 00:43:19effect on Ross and whatnot oh it's the
- 00:43:22the data is out it's definitely not good
- 00:43:24really yeah oxalate is is terrible for
- 00:43:26your kidneys yeah so even coming from
- 00:43:28like just raw vegetables kind of thing
- 00:43:30like that yeah any s oxalates a you know
- 00:43:34it's the kidneys have evolved and such I
- 00:43:37mean we've all evolved to deal with
- 00:43:38oxalate because oxalate is just this
- 00:43:41it's can't get rid of it because it's
- 00:43:43the it's when you take all the carbon
- 00:43:45you take carbon you take want to get
- 00:43:46energy out of it you strip all the
- 00:43:48electrons out of it and when you're done
- 00:43:50with it you end up with an oxalate
- 00:43:51skeleton like and so this thing is just
- 00:43:54around like it's just been around for as
- 00:43:56long as there's been humans thing has
- 00:43:57been getting created so all the systems
- 00:43:59of the body have have had to deal with
- 00:44:01this thing so we have all these
- 00:44:02different mechanisms of dealing with
- 00:44:04oxid so citrate one of it's probably
- 00:44:06evolved to help with that function as
- 00:44:08well the kidneys is just pumping out
- 00:44:10citrate all the time it pumps out these
- 00:44:12other um there's another compound called
- 00:44:15osteopontin that's like it's just
- 00:44:17putting it into the into the urine all
- 00:44:18the time because that binds a lot of
- 00:44:20these crystals and stuff so we have all
- 00:44:22these mechanisms to kind of deal with
- 00:44:23crystals all the time and normally I
- 00:44:26think we probably existed with um some
- 00:44:29bacteria that ate oxalate so we probably
- 00:44:31didn't have the same effect in the past
- 00:44:33but since you know antibiotic use and
- 00:44:36all sorts of other things all soil
- 00:44:38bacteria seem to be kind of depleted
- 00:44:39from our microbiome so you know we kind
- 00:44:42of are exposed to more oxalate than we
- 00:44:44probably should be and then that's yeah
- 00:44:46so that's so oxalates are for sure a
- 00:44:48problem like they're definitely a thing
- 00:44:50and preventing their their um you know
- 00:44:53the crystal formation is almost
- 00:44:54certainly going to be beneficial yeah so
- 00:44:56even for just the effect of okay let's
- 00:44:59say you're someone that eats a lot of
- 00:45:00spinach you consume a lot of ox like
- 00:45:02consuming citrate can actually help with
- 00:45:04that correct so does a lot of the and
- 00:45:07this maybe outside of your wheelhouse
- 00:45:09I'm curious if we could almost film
- 00:45:10another topic on this all together
- 00:45:12but oxalates is the main driving
- 00:45:15negative impact of them does it start in
- 00:45:18the kidneys I mean is that where and
- 00:45:20then the kind of the reactive oxygen
- 00:45:21species that drives up from there so is
- 00:45:23it really a kidney Centric issue where
- 00:45:26most of the literatur
- 00:45:27no oxalates are everywhere they go all
- 00:45:29over the place they end up in the
- 00:45:31connective tissue they end up in the
- 00:45:33thyroid they end up all over the place
- 00:45:35so they just they can just show up in
- 00:45:37tissues and make crystals anywhere so
- 00:45:40they can be in the kidney because that's
- 00:45:41like kind of the place that you know
- 00:45:43kidney stones or people know about
- 00:45:44kidney stones so most of the research on
- 00:45:47oxalate is like kind of focused on
- 00:45:48kidneys but there's a lot I mean there
- 00:45:51they're everywhere yeah so cook your
- 00:45:53vegetables yeah cook your vegetables or
- 00:45:55you have some calcium with the
- 00:45:57with it if you're that's wild man I mean
- 00:45:59that's because like it's so it's nice to
- 00:46:01hear it from someone that is well versed
- 00:46:03in this because I feel like the more
- 00:46:05that people that are not scientifically
- 00:46:08minded talk about it the more people
- 00:46:10kind of want to tune it out and also
- 00:46:13just when you have people that fear
- 00:46:16Monger or vegetables it makes it
- 00:46:18difficult to want to believe them in the
- 00:46:19first place when you think but when you
- 00:46:21actually okay well there's practical
- 00:46:22ways that you can sort of reduce this
- 00:46:24you know oxalate buildup um I mean
- 00:46:27that's just wild that's so so calcium or
- 00:46:30or citrate along with it can make a
- 00:46:31difference does does cooking actually
- 00:46:34break it down no you can't break down
- 00:46:35oxalate so you can break down phytic
- 00:46:37acid but not oxalate yeah oxalate is
- 00:46:39just inert essentially yeah it can
- 00:46:42survive in just like sediment and stuff
- 00:46:44it's just these little crystals are they
- 00:46:46just heat heat they don't break down
- 00:46:48from heat or anything yeah they're
- 00:46:49really hard to get rid of how do you I
- 00:46:51mean is citrate like the only way you
- 00:46:52get rid of them and how do you actually
- 00:46:53excrete them can you ever get rid of
- 00:46:55them well the citrate binds to the
- 00:46:56calcium part so it just prevents them
- 00:46:59kind of clustering into crystals yeah
- 00:47:01you can't get rid of the oxalate
- 00:47:03necessarily so like if you have a if you
- 00:47:05have calcium with your your meal and you
- 00:47:08have free oxalate then the free oxalate
- 00:47:10will bind to the calcium and then you
- 00:47:12can just kind of poop it out so it just
- 00:47:14never kind of makes its way into the
- 00:47:15body that's the that's one strategy but
- 00:47:17if they're free oxalate then it will
- 00:47:19just diffuse and make its way into the
- 00:47:21blood and then now your kidneys have to
- 00:47:23deal with it so like if you get a
- 00:47:25spinach has a lot of free oxalate yeah
- 00:47:28it's a lot do you happen to know again
- 00:47:30this may not be your wheelhouse but
- 00:47:31while we're talking about this I mean
- 00:47:33what uh so there's a difference between
- 00:47:35having high oxalate content and free
- 00:47:37oxalate content is that yes there's
- 00:47:39because there's the so the soluble and
- 00:47:40the insoluble oxalate are different okay
- 00:47:43so the plants you know they they they
- 00:47:45use oxalate crystals for defense
- 00:47:47purposes some some plants do some of
- 00:47:49them use it for like just storing
- 00:47:50calcium so like they have no bones so
- 00:47:52they got to have a way to store calcium
- 00:47:54so they'll they'll frequently have these
- 00:47:56like s like phytic acid phytic acid
- 00:47:58binds magnesium and so that's why people
- 00:48:00are worried about like you're going to
- 00:48:01suck all your minerals out well the
- 00:48:02plant's using it for you know holding
- 00:48:04onto minerals and for defense and so
- 00:48:07it's the same thing with the oxalates so
- 00:48:09you end up with these soluble oxalates
- 00:48:10which are the free versions that kind of
- 00:48:13easily make their way into the blood and
- 00:48:14then you have the you know the crystalin
- 00:48:16form that are the insoluble stuff so the
- 00:48:19research on this is actually kind of
- 00:48:21annoying because there's no there's no
- 00:48:23real like good table like here's all the
- 00:48:26stuff that exist um so I talked to Sally
- 00:48:29Norton she's a oxalate she's like the
- 00:48:31oxalate Queen she like like like I made
- 00:48:34a video with her because she's just
- 00:48:35that's all she talks about is oxalates
- 00:48:37like her her whole thing and um she's
- 00:48:39actually put together some you know all
- 00:48:41the resources that had like the
- 00:48:43different T different tables of oxy
- 00:48:45containing foods and had it in one place
- 00:48:48and like referenced all these things
- 00:48:49it's really nice like it's a it's it's
- 00:48:51worth finding but it's it's not good
- 00:48:54because the food companies are the ones
- 00:48:56that are looking at the oxil is not not
- 00:48:58like independent people researching this
- 00:49:00stuff so they have all these values all
- 00:49:01over the place so people have to go by
- 00:49:04whatever that has and some things have
- 00:49:05never been tested or looked at yeah or
- 00:49:07just hard to decipher for the lay person
- 00:49:09in the first place they don't really
- 00:49:10know what they're looking at yeah is
- 00:49:12there uh and I don't want to you know
- 00:49:14put you into a corner of making a claim
- 00:49:15but is there is there an element of Keto
- 00:49:18Citra that could help with oxalates as
- 00:49:20well I mean just this the tra and stuff
- 00:49:22well that's that's why we put the
- 00:49:23calcium and the Magnesium yeah those are
- 00:49:25bind to oxalates um in you know in the
- 00:49:27food and in the gut and hopefully they
- 00:49:29won't get absorbed I mean that's the
- 00:49:31that's why one of the things we're
- 00:49:33hoping will happen yeah yeah well Dr
- 00:49:35Torres I appreciate it man thank you
- 00:49:37very much well thanks than talking to
- 00:49:39you
- metabolic health
- kidneys
- metabolism
- ketones
- chronic kidney disease
- oxalates
- inflammation
- energy regulation
- PKD
- nutrition