Convertible Bond Expert Breaks Down Why MicroStrategy Is Soaring | Richard Byworth

00:54:51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3oT_IevEGU

Summary

TLDRThe video highlights the unique financial strategies of MicroStrategy, focusing on how the company leverages its stock's volatility and Bitcoin holdings through convertible bonds. This approach allows the company to issue bonds at zero coupon rates, benefiting from high implied volatility. The narrative unfolds the misconception that MicroStrategy is similar to a Bitcoin ETF. Instead, it portrays the company's innovative approach to financial management and asset leveraging. MicroStrategy's method is seen as unusual in traditional finance, whereby they aim to increase Bitcoin per share and creatively utilize their balance sheet, which causes some analysts and investors to misunderstand their business model. The strategy exploits market volatility, potentially creating significant value for shareholders. However, risks exist, such as substantial Bitcoin value drops that could impair their strategic advantage. The video suggests that the evolving landscape of financial innovation, as exemplified by MicroStrategy, requires a reevaluation of traditional investment metrics, as the company's approach combines the dynamics of traditional finance with those peculiar to the cryptocurrency sector.

Takeaways

  • 🔍 MicroStrategy employs a unique strategy leveraging stock volatility and convertible bonds to acquire Bitcoin.
  • 📈 The company benefits from high implied volatility, allowing for advantageous bond pricing.
  • 🤔 MicroStrategy's approach contrasts with being a simple Bitcoin ETF due to active financial strategy.
  • 📊 Analysts may misunderstand the company's business model and its innovative financial management.
  • ⚠️ There is a potential risk if Bitcoin prices drop significantly, affecting financial stability.
  • 🔄 The strategy involves creative balance sheet utilization and increasing Bitcoin per share.
  • 💡 Convertible bonds at zero coupon rates are central to MicroStrategy’s financial advantage.
  • 🔧 The approach is akin to a Bitcoin refinery, transforming raw stock value into more profitable assets.
  • 💸 Buyers of these bonds are usually convertible bond arbitrage hedge funds seeking volatility advantages.
  • 🧐 Financial innovation at MicroStrategy challenges traditional investment evaluation metrics.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The speaker discusses a unique financial strategy involving continuous value creation to the company's balance sheet, considering it as a type of earnings for the company. The strategy is based on price-earnings (P/E) valuation and implies that if not considered as earnings, the stock is mispriced. This approach is illustrated with actions of a company executive, Michael Saylor, who radically transformed the company's valuation in one year.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Ledger sponsors this video, emphasizing their role in digital asset security over the past decade. They secure a significant portion of global crypto assets and have announced new products enhancing digital security interface through secure screens and proprietary software. Another sponsor, Mantra, focuses on a new blockchain catering to real-world and regulated digital assets. The host introduces Richard Byworth, discussing his extensive career in Finance, particularly in convertible bonds.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Richard Byworth shares his experience in the financial sector, describing his early career in the convertible bond market. He narrates his transition from proprietary trading to market making at a major financial institution, discussing career progression and challenges, including dealing with liquidity in the Japanese market. This experience eventually led him to pursue opportunities in hedge funds and building a robust sales career.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    The narrative continues with Richard's journey, including moving to Hong Kong to expand his business and dealing with financial challenges like negative interest rates and tight spreads. He later transitioned to the crypto industry with roles in financial services for a crypto mining company and eventually led it to become a publicly listed entity. He offers insights into managing a hedge fund-focused business dealing with convertible bonds, private equity, and litigation finance.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    The discussion unpacks the unique properties of convertible bonds, illustrating their pricing volatility and how they provide strategic financial opportunities. Michael Saylor's use of convertible bonds and issuing equity at a market premium to gather capital for Bitcoin investment is highlighted. The strategy capitalizes on the high volatility of both the company's stock and Bitcoin, considering long-term appreciation potential.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Richard explains the convertible bonds' mechanisms, including the interplay of interest rates, company credit, and stock volatility. Saylor leverages Bitcoin's volatility to achieve favorable outcomes, issuing zero-coupon bonds with high premiums, a strategy common in Japan's zero-interest environment. The discussion highlights how Saylor increases shareholder value by issuing stock at high premiums.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    The speaker clarifies convertible bonds' financial strategies, with emphasis on capturing premium and time value resulting from volatility and Delta changes. Convertible bond arbitrage traders manage these bonds, benefiting from Saylor's structured financings. The speaker explains how convertible bonds' structure allows favorable issuance even amidst volatility, impacting the stock without overt focus on conversion price until maturity.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Convertible bond arbitrage is further explored, illustrating how they maintain yield through trading volatility and Delta adjustments, managing significant financial exposure with market shifts. The conversation covers the logic of traders in maintaining neutral Delta while ensuring profits from significant volatility changes. The strategies discussed underline how convertible bonds are designed to capitalize on Saylor’s unique approach.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    The conversation investigates potential risks and claims on bitcoin holdings for fixed-income instruments in a liquidation scenario, clarifying that the bonds aren't directly collateralized by Bitcoin. The discussion reveals Saylor's strategy is influenced by goals of enhancing Bitcoin holdings aggressively through financings, despite market volatility and emerging competitors attempting similar strategies.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:54:51

    The episode explores market perceptions and the innovative approach Michael Saylor is employing, challenging traditional views of earnings by leveraging the asset base growth through strategic finance. This unique perspective mandates reevaluation of financial instruments reflecting company value beyond traditional metrics, altering market dynamics through strategic asset expansion and leveraging opportunities.

Show more

Mind Map

Video Q&A

  • What is the main financial strategy discussed in the video?

    The video discusses MicroStrategy's use of convertible bonds to leverage the volatility of their stock related to Bitcoin investments.

  • How does MicroStrategy benefit from stock volatility and convertible bonds?

    MicroStrategy uses the stock's high volatility to issue convertible bonds at zero coupon rates, allowing them to acquire more Bitcoin and create a positive balance sheet impact.

  • What misconceptions about MicroStrategy are mentioned in the video?

    A major misconception is that MicroStrategy is like a Bitcoin ETF, whereas they actively increase Bitcoin per share and manage their balance sheet creatively.

  • How does MicroStrategy's strategy differ from a traditional investment in Bitcoin?

    MicroStrategy's approach uses financial instruments to effectively leverage Bitcoin investments, allowing for strategic stock issuance and convertible bond benefits.

  • Why does the video suggest MicroStrategy is misunderstood?

    The company is misunderstood because their financial strategy combines traditional finance concepts with cryptocurrency, which may not be easily grasped by typical investors.

  • Who are the primary buyers of MicroStrategy’s convertible bonds?

    Mostly convertible bond arbitrage hedge funds purchase these bonds to benefit from the high implied volatility and potential price appreciation.

  • What role do interest rates play in the strategy discussed?

    Interest rates are crucial in determining the attractiveness of bonds, especially with zero coupon implications in a volatile stock market.

  • How might the value and strategy of MicroStrategy change if Bitcoin values drop significantly?

    If Bitcoin were to drop significantly, MicroStrategy could face challenges like liquidation risk, affecting their stock value and bondholder claims.

  • What comparison is made regarding MicroStrategy’s financial strategy?

    The strategy is compared to a refinery process for Bitcoin, transforming raw value into more profitable assets via sophisticated financial products.

  • What is a potential risk associated with MicroStrategy’s financial strategy?

    A potential risk is a significant drop in Bitcoin prices, which could devalue both their assets and stock, affecting overall financial stability.

View more video summaries

Get instant access to free YouTube video summaries powered by AI!
Subtitles
en
Auto Scroll:
  • 00:00:00
    this is something that no one has ever
  • 00:00:01
    seen before so you have to think about
  • 00:00:03
    it in slightly different ways and try to
  • 00:00:06
    understand what is really happening here
  • 00:00:08
    and it is a creating continuous value to
  • 00:00:11
    the balance sheet to the asset base
  • 00:00:14
    therefore in a way it's a type of
  • 00:00:16
    earnings for the company and then we
  • 00:00:19
    should perhaps be thinking about this on
  • 00:00:20
    a price earnings basis and maybe this is
  • 00:00:23
    why sailor is doing this as violently as
  • 00:00:26
    he can he wants to demonstrate to people
  • 00:00:29
    the value that he can add in a single
  • 00:00:32
    year right and if you're not thinking
  • 00:00:34
    about this as earnings then you're just
  • 00:00:35
    completely mispricing the stock because
  • 00:00:38
    he's completely changed the basis of the
  • 00:00:40
    value of the company in a single year
  • 00:00:42
    hey everyone this episode is sponsored
  • 00:00:44
    by Ledger for the past decade Ledger has
  • 00:00:46
    been the global leader in digital asset
  • 00:00:48
    security trusted to secure more than 20%
  • 00:00:50
    of the world's crypto assets celebrating
  • 00:00:52
    10 years of innovation Ledger is making
  • 00:00:54
    digital ownership more secure and
  • 00:00:56
    accessible with their latest products
  • 00:00:57
    Ledger stacks and Ledger Flex these
  • 00:01:00
    wallets feature the world's first secure
  • 00:01:01
    touch screens simplifying your digital
  • 00:01:03
    transactions while ensuring
  • 00:01:05
    uncompromising security through this
  • 00:01:07
    Ledger secure chip and proprietary OS
  • 00:01:10
    plus with The Ledger security key app
  • 00:01:12
    you can say goodbye to traditional
  • 00:01:13
    passwords and step up your digital
  • 00:01:15
    protection your entire crypto experience
  • 00:01:17
    got a whole lot easier ready to protect
  • 00:01:19
    your assets choose the most trusted name
  • 00:01:20
    and Hardware wallets Ledger and take
  • 00:01:22
    control of your digital Security today
  • 00:01:24
    at ledger.com all right back to the show
  • 00:01:27
    this episode is sponsored by Mantra the
  • 00:01:29
    Mantra train is is the purpose built
  • 00:01:30
    layer 1 blockchain designed for
  • 00:01:32
    tokenized real world assets and
  • 00:01:34
    regulated digital assets offering
  • 00:01:36
    scalable high performance architecture
  • 00:01:38
    positioned as the blockchain for
  • 00:01:39
    tokenized rwas mantra is onboarding
  • 00:01:42
    traditional financial institutions into
  • 00:01:44
    web3 join the ongoing OMG drop campaign
  • 00:01:46
    would be part of the future of regulated
  • 00:01:48
    digital assets
  • 00:01:49
    today all right welcome back to another
  • 00:01:52
    episode of on the margin and joining me
  • 00:01:54
    today is Richard byworth who is the
  • 00:01:56
    managing partner of C's capital and has
  • 00:01:58
    a long story career as a convertible
  • 00:02:00
    Bond uh salesman and Trader um very
  • 00:02:03
    historic career through a lot of
  • 00:02:05
    different Realms so I'm really excited
  • 00:02:06
    to get him on the show today we're going
  • 00:02:07
    to be chatting alling micro strategy and
  • 00:02:10
    just really starting to try to unpack
  • 00:02:11
    some of the more you know Advanced
  • 00:02:13
    mechanics behind the whole idea so
  • 00:02:15
    Richard it's really great to have you on
  • 00:02:16
    the show I listened to your your episode
  • 00:02:18
    a few weeks ago and I was just mind
  • 00:02:20
    blown to somebody who could really
  • 00:02:22
    explain these Dynamics so I just had to
  • 00:02:23
    get you on the show so it's great to
  • 00:02:24
    have you great Felix thanks for having
  • 00:02:27
    me always happy to chat about it I think
  • 00:02:29
    my strategy is is woefully misunderstood
  • 00:02:32
    by the majority of of people so happy to
  • 00:02:36
    try and articulate uh as much as
  • 00:02:38
    possible uh what is a fairly complicated
  • 00:02:41
    subject love it yeah I think that's a
  • 00:02:43
    great goal for today so to to set the
  • 00:02:46
    stage before we get into it all I would
  • 00:02:48
    just love to hear a little bit about
  • 00:02:49
    your history as I as I understand it you
  • 00:02:51
    worked at namura and you've been in the
  • 00:02:53
    convertible Bond industry for what feels
  • 00:02:55
    like many years and you have a pretty
  • 00:02:57
    good understanding so just love to hear
  • 00:02:58
    a bit more about your background and
  • 00:02:59
    also just like a quick one1 and what are
  • 00:03:01
    convertible bonds and how's that
  • 00:03:02
    different from traditional fixed income
  • 00:03:04
    instruments sure yeah so um I started my
  • 00:03:07
    career in London um I was desperate to
  • 00:03:11
    get on a trading desk and by luck just
  • 00:03:13
    sort of landed on the convertible Bond
  • 00:03:16
    desk um I didn't know anything about the
  • 00:03:18
    product uh before I landed there and
  • 00:03:21
    within two weeks I was trading a book uh
  • 00:03:23
    when my boss went on holiday and uh he
  • 00:03:27
    handed me the the market making book for
  • 00:03:29
    for these sort of small cap names in in
  • 00:03:32
    Japan where we had this rather unique uh
  • 00:03:36
    still remaining open outcry Market this
  • 00:03:38
    was in the early
  • 00:03:40
    2000s basically everybody would call up
  • 00:03:44
    all the other Banks and if you were the
  • 00:03:45
    first person to call them you'd get to
  • 00:03:47
    ask them a price and if they got you
  • 00:03:49
    first then they'd get to ask you a price
  • 00:03:51
    and so we called it this knock for knock
  • 00:03:53
    Market making and these Bonds were super
  • 00:03:55
    liquid basically the uh the market
  • 00:03:58
    makers were were were the only liquidity
  • 00:04:00
    and so we have you know if you didn't
  • 00:04:01
    know what was going on in this stock you
  • 00:04:03
    know like a let's say a metap planet
  • 00:04:06
    today if they've suddenly announced a
  • 00:04:07
    Bitcoin by and you haven't noticed it
  • 00:04:09
    then uh you know you're going to be
  • 00:04:11
    caught caught short or long uh in
  • 00:04:13
    something you don't want um but anyway
  • 00:04:16
    to cut a very long story short that's
  • 00:04:18
    where I cut my teeth um so I sort of
  • 00:04:20
    landed on this desk started learning
  • 00:04:23
    about convertible bonds and you know I
  • 00:04:25
    was discussing this with someone the
  • 00:04:27
    other day because a lot of people really
  • 00:04:28
    struggle with the payoff of a
  • 00:04:31
    convertible Bond and what it looks like
  • 00:04:33
    right everyone's talking about you know
  • 00:04:34
    these convertible Bond Arbitrage Traders
  • 00:04:36
    are aiming for the conversion price
  • 00:04:38
    that's just not true at all right you're
  • 00:04:41
    there for the volatility you're there to
  • 00:04:43
    take advantage of the fact that this
  • 00:04:46
    thing moves in particular in the case of
  • 00:04:48
    micro
  • 00:04:49
    strategy you want to make sure that
  • 00:04:51
    you're capturing as much of that
  • 00:04:54
    Arbitrage as possible so we can we can
  • 00:04:56
    talk about that but uh just to come back
  • 00:04:59
    to my my career so I I started as a
  • 00:05:02
    Trader um within the convertible Bond
  • 00:05:04
    space um in 2002 so two years later
  • 00:05:09
    namura namura bought a business from
  • 00:05:12
    another bank so prior to
  • 00:05:15
    2002 namura in London was basically a
  • 00:05:19
    proprietary trading shop like all the
  • 00:05:21
    Traders had hardly any client business
  • 00:05:25
    we were just trading our own risk on
  • 00:05:27
    behalf of the bank and so in 2002 they
  • 00:05:31
    started buying businesses from other
  • 00:05:33
    Banks they bought a derivative business
  • 00:05:34
    from meril Lynch they bought a
  • 00:05:36
    convertible Bond business from ING at
  • 00:05:39
    that point I then changed from more a
  • 00:05:41
    proprietary Trader into a market making
  • 00:05:45
    Trader and uh as a market maker this is
  • 00:05:48
    extremely frustrating because you come
  • 00:05:52
    from a position of saying I want that
  • 00:05:53
    Bond I want that on my book and then a
  • 00:05:56
    client comes along goes give me a price
  • 00:05:58
    in this Bond you give a two-way price
  • 00:05:59
    and he buys it off you and you're like I
  • 00:06:02
    need my position back guys come on you
  • 00:06:04
    know go go get it so it's it's a
  • 00:06:07
    slightly bit more frustrating and so I I
  • 00:06:09
    got to the point of saying you know what
  • 00:06:11
    I just need to join a hedge fund and so
  • 00:06:14
    at that point it was around the time
  • 00:06:17
    where the new team that had come in were
  • 00:06:19
    looking to expand the international
  • 00:06:21
    business into Tokyo obviously being
  • 00:06:24
    Amura we were very strong in in Tokyo uh
  • 00:06:27
    in anything that we tried to put our
  • 00:06:28
    hand to so it was very obvious that
  • 00:06:30
    you'd want to put a part of our team in
  • 00:06:32
    Tokyo and so I thought to myself well
  • 00:06:34
    that would be a great opportunity as a
  • 00:06:36
    sales guy to be facing some of these
  • 00:06:38
    hedge funds and show them how smart I am
  • 00:06:40
    and then i' join one of those hedge
  • 00:06:42
    funds and and go back to putting
  • 00:06:45
    convertible bonds on my my book and
  • 00:06:47
    trading them well it turns out I was a
  • 00:06:49
    better sales guy than I was a Trader and
  • 00:06:51
    so I ended up just building a career as
  • 00:06:53
    a sales guy and that sort of took off we
  • 00:06:56
    we ended up being um being one of the
  • 00:06:59
    number one houses or the number one
  • 00:07:00
    house I should say within a matter of
  • 00:07:02
    months uh of landing on the ground in
  • 00:07:05
    Tokyo uh unseating Goldman sacks at the
  • 00:07:08
    time um and then Leman happened so in
  • 00:07:11
    2008 um I ended up running all of the
  • 00:07:16
    derivative business as well as the
  • 00:07:17
    convertible Bond distribution business
  • 00:07:19
    and then Futures and options and Delta 1
  • 00:07:21
    um and so in 2009 I moved to Hong Kong
  • 00:07:25
    um which is where the majority of the
  • 00:07:27
    clients were that I was facing um and I
  • 00:07:29
    started you know really building out
  • 00:07:32
    that business within by 2012 we were the
  • 00:07:35
    number one aurex derivative house as
  • 00:07:37
    well as the Japan derivative house so
  • 00:07:40
    that was a big win for us uh as we we
  • 00:07:43
    didn't manage to keep it for very long
  • 00:07:44
    but uh we uh by 2014 it was starting to
  • 00:07:48
    slip again and this was a point where
  • 00:07:50
    the result of negative interest or or
  • 00:07:53
    zero interest rates or negative interest
  • 00:07:54
    rates had started to really permeate
  • 00:07:57
    into the financial
  • 00:07:58
    system sprads had gone really tight it
  • 00:08:01
    was really hard to make money on all the
  • 00:08:03
    products uh that I was selling and so it
  • 00:08:05
    was just becoming more and more
  • 00:08:07
    frustrating um and so by 2017 I just
  • 00:08:11
    decided to to leave the bank I was going
  • 00:08:13
    to join a private private Equity Firm um
  • 00:08:17
    and in the end I was approached by a
  • 00:08:19
    crypto company that I was invested in
  • 00:08:21
    and they were mining uh ethereum in
  • 00:08:24
    China and so I joined this company to
  • 00:08:26
    help them build out Financial Services
  • 00:08:29
    ended up becoming CEO of the company we
  • 00:08:31
    sold the mining business we listed the
  • 00:08:32
    company on NASDAQ through a spa um and
  • 00:08:36
    uh that
  • 00:08:38
    um that process of dpack was a as a
  • 00:08:42
    whole three-hour podcast on its own but
  • 00:08:44
    uh basically at the end of 2021 binance
  • 00:08:47
    came along and they wanted to buy the
  • 00:08:48
    company because we had a lot of licenses
  • 00:08:50
    including the UK where they'd just been
  • 00:08:51
    kicked out by the FCA that was the point
  • 00:08:54
    where I said to the chairman and the
  • 00:08:55
    board I don't want to be involved with
  • 00:08:57
    binance step down and and we found
  • 00:09:00
    myself sitting on on the beach in Costa
  • 00:09:03
    Rica and got a call uh from uh Mark C's
  • 00:09:07
    at part of the family and CEO of C
  • 00:09:10
    capital and asked me if I'd I'd be
  • 00:09:12
    interested in joining to look after the
  • 00:09:15
    hedge fund business at CES Capital um
  • 00:09:17
    the hedge fund business at CES capital
  • 00:09:19
    is about $1.3 billion we do invest in
  • 00:09:21
    convertible Bond Arbitrage managers so
  • 00:09:24
    obviously that skill set of having
  • 00:09:26
    looked at managers over the years sort
  • 00:09:28
    of um is very helpful and and work with
  • 00:09:31
    them for a long time so yeah we as well
  • 00:09:34
    as uh hedge funds we do private equity
  • 00:09:37
    and litigation Finance as well so that's
  • 00:09:39
    another 500 million so in in total we're
  • 00:09:43
    about $1.8 billion do F awesome okay so
  • 00:09:46
    I feel like that paints a good picture
  • 00:09:47
    of of your background of understanding
  • 00:09:49
    the CT Bond business but also the crypto
  • 00:09:51
    business and how they both intersect the
  • 00:09:53
    perfect you know expression of that is
  • 00:09:55
    obviously micro strategy so you know the
  • 00:09:57
    the the secret sauce behind
  • 00:09:59
    you know what sailor is up to is the
  • 00:10:01
    convert bonds and what he can do there
  • 00:10:03
    so I would just love for you to unpack
  • 00:10:06
    what are the unique properties of
  • 00:10:07
    convertible bonds you know it's it's not
  • 00:10:09
    it's a relatively young product compared
  • 00:10:11
    to a lot of other you know products that
  • 00:10:13
    are out there so what are the unique
  • 00:10:14
    properties of it and why is that you
  • 00:10:17
    know the the secret sauce that micro
  • 00:10:19
    strategy has started to leverage um what
  • 00:10:21
    are the what are the reasons behind
  • 00:10:22
    those properties that make it you know
  • 00:10:23
    so great for him to issue so so
  • 00:10:26
    basically a convertible bond is priced
  • 00:10:28
    um on a number number of factors um so
  • 00:10:31
    it's priced based on interest rates it's
  • 00:10:33
    priced based on credit of the company so
  • 00:10:36
    credit worthiness of the company um it's
  • 00:10:39
    priced on the underlying stock where
  • 00:10:41
    that is and it's priced on the
  • 00:10:42
    volatility of that stock so all of those
  • 00:10:45
    things come together to contribute to
  • 00:10:47
    the pricing of a convertible Bond what
  • 00:10:49
    Sailors realized is because his stock is
  • 00:10:52
    so
  • 00:10:53
    volatile it allows him to price Bonds on
  • 00:10:57
    a zero coupon
  • 00:10:59
    with a massive
  • 00:11:00
    premium Now to to price a bond on a zero
  • 00:11:05
    coupon on a 55% premium I mean you would
  • 00:11:09
    basically need rates to be at zero I
  • 00:11:12
    mean the only place I'd ever seen that
  • 00:11:14
    before was in Japan where rates were at
  • 00:11:18
    zero for a very very long time and when
  • 00:11:21
    you combine that with a volatile stock
  • 00:11:23
    like a soft bank for example um then you
  • 00:11:26
    could you could end up with that level
  • 00:11:28
    of a premum but even that was very very
  • 00:11:31
    rare in a zero interest rate
  • 00:11:34
    environment the thing that sailor has is
  • 00:11:37
    this very high volatility because he's
  • 00:11:39
    basically sitting on the volatility of
  • 00:11:42
    Bitcoin adding leverage to that and
  • 00:11:45
    therefore getting even more
  • 00:11:47
    volatility and and so he's basically
  • 00:11:50
    just uh realized that this volatility is
  • 00:11:54
    what allows him to completely price a
  • 00:11:58
    ridiculous outome come for him and his
  • 00:12:00
    shareholders because what's he doing
  • 00:12:02
    he's selling stock not just at the
  • 00:12:05
    current rate which is what he's doing
  • 00:12:06
    with the eatm he's selling it at a
  • 00:12:09
    massive premium and then using that cash
  • 00:12:12
    to buy buy Bitcoin right and I think
  • 00:12:16
    this is the ultimate hack that he's
  • 00:12:19
    managed to find and obviously now we're
  • 00:12:20
    starting to see people start to
  • 00:12:22
    replicate it but he is now so far in the
  • 00:12:26
    lead this 42 billion 21 and 21 plan
  • 00:12:30
    uh that he launched I really I mean I
  • 00:12:31
    was blown away by that um it really was
  • 00:12:35
    something that I didn't think the market
  • 00:12:38
    could could handle in the way it did I
  • 00:12:40
    mean he went live with that 21 billion
  • 00:12:43
    AUM day one and the m and the stock went
  • 00:12:47
    up I mean it was absolutely phenomenal
  • 00:12:50
    when you had that level of dilution I
  • 00:12:52
    mean he was a at the time he was a $50
  • 00:12:54
    million 50 billion company and he issues
  • 00:12:57
    you know 40% ution in the stock now and
  • 00:13:01
    the stock goes up I mean that was the
  • 00:13:03
    point where I realized okay something
  • 00:13:06
    has shifted here like this is a
  • 00:13:09
    completely different Paradigm that we're
  • 00:13:11
    now in and he's operating on this new
  • 00:13:15
    glitch yeah so to come to come back to
  • 00:13:18
    your point about convertible bonds if
  • 00:13:20
    you think about what he's doing in the
  • 00:13:22
    stock he's let's say I use this example
  • 00:13:26
    on the other uh chat I had but I think
  • 00:13:28
    it's the simple one to just try and help
  • 00:13:30
    people understand if he's got $100 of
  • 00:13:34
    market cap in stock and he's got $30 of
  • 00:13:37
    Bitcoin he goes and issues another $100
  • 00:13:40
    of stock market cap becomes $200 but he
  • 00:13:43
    buys a $100 of Bitcoin he's suddenly
  • 00:13:47
    increased the r decreased the ratio the
  • 00:13:50
    multiplier on that Bitcoin so massively
  • 00:13:53
    ACC created value to shareholders all
  • 00:13:56
    right and this is the point the dilution
  • 00:13:59
    is a creative and this is what everybody
  • 00:14:02
    in financial markets is really
  • 00:14:04
    struggling to get their head around
  • 00:14:06
    right so as long as that multiple trades
  • 00:14:09
    there almost needs to be more multiple
  • 00:14:12
    right so so as long as he's got a
  • 00:14:13
    multiple there should be more multiple
  • 00:14:16
    it should just be going high but
  • 00:14:17
    obviously he's selling into it and
  • 00:14:19
    pushing it down but even if it goes back
  • 00:14:21
    down to a multiple of one he can do more
  • 00:14:24
    converts selling it again another
  • 00:14:27
    multiple so it everything that he's
  • 00:14:30
    doing continues to be a creative yeah so
  • 00:14:33
    it's really a very fascinating situation
  • 00:14:36
    that he's found himself in did I explain
  • 00:14:39
    enough on the convertible Bond or yeah
  • 00:14:41
    I'll um I'll just summarize one quick
  • 00:14:42
    thing and then dig in deeper on that
  • 00:14:44
    that question of of value acur because I
  • 00:14:46
    think it's very important but you know
  • 00:14:47
    effectively you know sailor has has two
  • 00:14:49
    options to basically raise Capital he
  • 00:14:51
    can either issue Equity at the market
  • 00:14:53
    like he'd mentioned but to do that he
  • 00:14:55
    generally speaking needs needs a premium
  • 00:14:58
    um to be able to issue into um versus
  • 00:15:01
    you know it's a lot harder to to issue
  • 00:15:03
    Equity when you're at a discount to nav
  • 00:15:05
    of of the Bitcoin so that's the one
  • 00:15:06
    route and then the other route is what
  • 00:15:08
    you just described which is the convert
  • 00:15:09
    bonds which you know depending on on
  • 00:15:11
    where they trade versus the conversion
  • 00:15:13
    price they can often you know if it's
  • 00:15:15
    below it trades more like a bond and
  • 00:15:16
    then if it trades you know closer or
  • 00:15:18
    above the you know conversion price it's
  • 00:15:19
    more like like Equity or like a call
  • 00:15:21
    option so based on that capital
  • 00:15:23
    structure framework I want to follow up
  • 00:15:25
    on this question of what you mentioned
  • 00:15:26
    about um value acrel um obviously you
  • 00:15:30
    know you mentioned that it's you know
  • 00:15:32
    you issue 40% more like increase in
  • 00:15:34
    equity and you're you're saying it's a
  • 00:15:36
    creative and I think you're right that's
  • 00:15:37
    the thing that people are having a lot
  • 00:15:38
    of difficulty wrapping their heads
  • 00:15:40
    around um so that assumption does it
  • 00:15:44
    require the assumptions of being
  • 00:15:46
    positive on bitcoin and does it also
  • 00:15:48
    require the assumption that it continues
  • 00:15:50
    to go up in price in the future or can
  • 00:15:52
    it still be a creative even if we you
  • 00:15:55
    know go flat here if we go flat here in
  • 00:15:57
    the multiple remains it's still
  • 00:15:59
    accretive right you think back to that
  • 00:16:01
    example I gave of 100 and 100 right it's
  • 00:16:05
    whenever there's a premium to nav it's
  • 00:16:08
    ACC creaive right and even if as I said
  • 00:16:12
    that nav drops to one the multiplier on
  • 00:16:15
    the nav drops to one he can still do the
  • 00:16:18
    CB which is again net accretive there is
  • 00:16:21
    obviously a third option he can do
  • 00:16:23
    straight debt with no convertible uh
  • 00:16:26
    strike price I think that if you if if
  • 00:16:29
    you look at the way that the converts
  • 00:16:31
    trade um it it's also important to just
  • 00:16:34
    understand the way the payoff looks
  • 00:16:36
    because a lot of people get their heads
  • 00:16:39
    stuck around this conversion price and
  • 00:16:42
    that is important at expiry it's not
  • 00:16:45
    important now necessarily right so
  • 00:16:49
    because of the volatility you end up
  • 00:16:52
    with what we call in options terms you
  • 00:16:54
    time value so the time value he's
  • 00:16:57
    issuing a fiveyear piece of paper it's
  • 00:17:00
    got a three-year put so essentially that
  • 00:17:02
    pushes up your bond floor because the
  • 00:17:04
    credit is only to three years that's
  • 00:17:07
    where your credit risk is going to get
  • 00:17:09
    tested is because he's got a put in it
  • 00:17:11
    where you as an investor if par is like
  • 00:17:13
    20 you can say you know what you you're
  • 00:17:16
    going down the toilet I'll put those
  • 00:17:17
    bonds back to you you got to pay me full
  • 00:17:19
    full par price right so so that that put
  • 00:17:23
    a there's a bit of a a stagger in the
  • 00:17:25
    maturity curve of of the convertible
  • 00:17:28
    Bond
  • 00:17:29
    but forget about that for a moment just
  • 00:17:31
    let's let's just talk about the payoff
  • 00:17:33
    because I think it's it's really
  • 00:17:34
    important for people to understand
  • 00:17:37
    you've got the the bond floor right
  • 00:17:39
    which is calculated based on the credit
  • 00:17:42
    okay as I said the put will affect that
  • 00:17:44
    so it pulls the bond floor higher
  • 00:17:45
    because it's three-year paper rather
  • 00:17:47
    than fiveyear paper right so you've got
  • 00:17:49
    the bond floor and then you've got the
  • 00:17:51
    payoff of the equity so as Equity goes
  • 00:17:55
    up one the the price of the bond goes up
  • 00:17:57
    one right so post the conversion price
  • 00:18:00
    you've got this pay up sorry I'm in the
  • 00:18:02
    wrong part of the camera angle so youve
  • 00:18:04
    got the payoff going like this
  • 00:18:05
    diagonally right so what happens though
  • 00:18:10
    Pro like that's the payoff so that's
  • 00:18:12
    what it looks like at maturity only at
  • 00:18:15
    maturity I care about that conversion
  • 00:18:17
    price prior to that you have what we
  • 00:18:20
    call time value which creates a curve
  • 00:18:23
    where the fair value pricing of the
  • 00:18:25
    convertible bond is so it tails off and
  • 00:18:27
    as you go lower and on the parity it
  • 00:18:29
    will get almost to that Bond floor price
  • 00:18:32
    right and then as you get close to the
  • 00:18:35
    conversion price you have this huge
  • 00:18:37
    amount of Premium between the the the
  • 00:18:39
    value of the bond at par and the final
  • 00:18:43
    sorry the trading price of the bond and
  • 00:18:45
    that is the time value of that option
  • 00:18:47
    and the time value of that option is so
  • 00:18:49
    rich because it is so volatile his stock
  • 00:18:53
    is so volatile so the market today is
  • 00:18:56
    pricing his Bonds on like a 70 70
  • 00:18:59
    implied volatility that is almost
  • 00:19:02
    unheard of of a convertible bond for
  • 00:19:05
    that type to uh term right because when
  • 00:19:09
    you trade a one month or a three-month
  • 00:19:11
    or a six-month option sure you're going
  • 00:19:13
    to be fairly close to the actual realize
  • 00:19:15
    today but you're always going to assume
  • 00:19:18
    as that option gets longer that you will
  • 00:19:19
    have with a very volatile stock you will
  • 00:19:22
    you will have um a depletion of the
  • 00:19:25
    volatility over time right that's just
  • 00:19:28
    generally the way that the options will
  • 00:19:30
    price as they get longer and longer
  • 00:19:32
    dated so for a convertible bond to trade
  • 00:19:35
    at 70 implied Vol is is absolutely
  • 00:19:38
    insanity but it just shows you how
  • 00:19:40
    volatile his stock is and how volatile
  • 00:19:43
    everybody anticipates to be and I was
  • 00:19:45
    just looking at the stock this morning
  • 00:19:46
    it's down 5% bitcoin's down not even
  • 00:19:51
    2% and the stock's down 5% so five time
  • 00:19:55
    16 roughly you're looking at that's sort
  • 00:19:57
    of about a 90 Vol on the day I want to
  • 00:20:00
    ask you super quick just to compare what
  • 00:20:01
    you just explained to something people
  • 00:20:03
    might be more familiar with
  • 00:20:05
    which oh yeah there you go um if we can
  • 00:20:07
    just compare that to something that
  • 00:20:09
    people might be more familiar with like
  • 00:20:10
    a black skulls model of like a call
  • 00:20:12
    option or something like that so let me
  • 00:20:14
    get see if I got this straight but what
  • 00:20:15
    you're saying is that whereas with a
  • 00:20:17
    call option you know the price of that
  • 00:20:19
    option is is pretty reliant on the
  • 00:20:21
    probability of it to expire in the money
  • 00:20:23
    um so like where the Delta is relation
  • 00:20:24
    to the strike price but you're saying
  • 00:20:26
    that in the convertible Bond area
  • 00:20:29
    it's it's it doesn't quite matter until
  • 00:20:31
    we're at expiry is that what you're
  • 00:20:32
    saying no sorry maybe I'm explaining it
  • 00:20:35
    wrong of course the stock price is a is
  • 00:20:37
    a factor when you're pricing right but
  • 00:20:40
    what I'm saying is when I see these
  • 00:20:42
    comments on Twitter everybody's like oh
  • 00:20:44
    but you know the convertible Bond guys
  • 00:20:46
    they're not going to sell any until we
  • 00:20:47
    get to conversion price like no that
  • 00:20:50
    that that's not what happens you you're
  • 00:20:52
    already on an implied Delta IE and imp
  • 00:20:55
    into the price already yeah exactly so
  • 00:20:58
    it's already priced there and and
  • 00:21:00
    because of that massive amount of
  • 00:21:03
    volatility you just have this premium
  • 00:21:04
    because it's fiveyear option um you know
  • 00:21:08
    so it's very very long so you get this
  • 00:21:10
    huge premium baked into the price itself
  • 00:21:14
    got it okay okay that makes sense um
  • 00:21:17
    cool so I want to talk a little bit
  • 00:21:18
    about the people that are actually
  • 00:21:20
    buying these convertible bonds um like
  • 00:21:22
    you mentioned the last two insurances
  • 00:21:24
    have been at 0% coupon so there's no
  • 00:21:26
    coupon um so the big question is
  • 00:21:29
    where is the yield coming from how are
  • 00:21:31
    they getting it and how does it work
  • 00:21:32
    that they actually get it okay so let
  • 00:21:35
    let's go back to the basics of your
  • 00:21:37
    average convertible Bond Arbitrage hedge
  • 00:21:41
    fund right so guy gets a call from his
  • 00:21:44
    investment banker in the morning uh
  • 00:21:46
    micro strategies issue another
  • 00:21:48
    convertible Bond right I'll stick it
  • 00:21:50
    into my model I'll work it out okay
  • 00:21:52
    that's the conversion price he's
  • 00:21:53
    proposing that's the coupon he's
  • 00:21:55
    proposing I factor my credit to be you
  • 00:21:59
    know 600 basis points over rates so this
  • 00:22:02
    is where I'm pricing the bond for etc
  • 00:22:04
    etc so I'm putting all of these things
  • 00:22:06
    into my model and I'm looking at it and
  • 00:22:08
    the model's telling me well that's 60
  • 00:22:11
    implied and I'm looking at all the other
  • 00:22:13
    micro strategy converts and they're all
  • 00:22:15
    trading at 70
  • 00:22:16
    implied and I'm like call my banker back
  • 00:22:19
    okay put me in for the full allocation
  • 00:22:21
    right I want Max allocation on this Bond
  • 00:22:24
    and this is what's happening across the
  • 00:22:26
    street every time he's doing a convert
  • 00:22:28
    because the minute he issues he's
  • 00:22:30
    leaving enough on the table where the
  • 00:22:31
    guys are like of course I want that
  • 00:22:33
    right it's 60 Volve compared to a 70 Vol
  • 00:22:36
    I think he issued at 60 volt last time
  • 00:22:38
    it immediately traded up to 70 volt so
  • 00:22:42
    that is a huge amount of profit almost
  • 00:22:45
    day one all these convertible Bond guys
  • 00:22:48
    so so their yield comes from the Vega
  • 00:22:50
    increasing that's one thing that's
  • 00:22:52
    what's pricing the bond cheap so to
  • 00:22:54
    speak got it right so you get that kick
  • 00:22:56
    in the Vega as you rightly out so the
  • 00:22:59
    vager is is Big because it's a fiveyear
  • 00:23:02
    piece of paper so it's it's fiveyear
  • 00:23:04
    Vault so it's very impactful 10v points
  • 00:23:07
    you know that could be seven eight% in
  • 00:23:11
    the bonds right so it's it's a huge
  • 00:23:13
    amount of value that's left on the table
  • 00:23:15
    then and then if the guys who want to
  • 00:23:19
    trade it and go well 70 Vol is still
  • 00:23:21
    cheap for you know a stock that's moving
  • 00:23:25
    around intraday often at 100 50 Vol
  • 00:23:29
    right so I want to keep it and I want to
  • 00:23:32
    trade the gamma right so the gamma is
  • 00:23:35
    the trade sorry the change of Delta
  • 00:23:38
    every
  • 00:23:39
    1% so as the stock goes up let's say 20%
  • 00:23:44
    in a single day if gamma is
  • 00:23:48
    0.5% then your Delta is going to change
  • 00:23:51
    10% right which means at that point
  • 00:23:54
    where you're hitting 10% up you have 10%
  • 00:23:58
    additional exposure to micro
  • 00:24:01
    strategy right I was on the phone to a
  • 00:24:03
    convertible Bond AR Trader after I did
  • 00:24:06
    that podcast the other day just to sort
  • 00:24:07
    of understand what he's going through
  • 00:24:10
    with all of this and he's like Rich I've
  • 00:24:12
    become a dgen crypto Trader I thought I
  • 00:24:14
    thought I was a cbab guy like I'm just
  • 00:24:17
    trading crypto like a dgen now he said
  • 00:24:19
    it's insane he said I go to the bathroom
  • 00:24:22
    if I haven't tightened up all my deltas
  • 00:24:24
    and at least left some limits I can come
  • 00:24:27
    back and have millions ions of dollars
  • 00:24:28
    of exposure this stuff is whipping
  • 00:24:31
    around like crazy I mean he's got the
  • 00:24:33
    bit de bonds the the um Marathon bonds
  • 00:24:37
    the the micro strategy bonds so he's
  • 00:24:40
    yeah as I said and to your point as you
  • 00:24:42
    say there you know they're not trying to
  • 00:24:44
    take on directional exposure Delta
  • 00:24:46
    exposure right it's a gamma thing for
  • 00:24:47
    them so if if price shoots up they're
  • 00:24:51
    shorting right that's where the that's
  • 00:24:52
    where the big short interest comes from
  • 00:24:53
    is these guys are trying to St delta
  • 00:24:55
    neutral right exactly right exactly
  • 00:24:58
    right haven't modeled it so I don't know
  • 00:24:59
    what the gamar is but you know a big
  • 00:25:01
    move like that you're going to get a lot
  • 00:25:02
    of selling coming in from the CB guys
  • 00:25:05
    that said all the other CBS that he's
  • 00:25:08
    already issued are so far in the money
  • 00:25:11
    there's no Delta change happening is
  • 00:25:13
    they're already on like a 95 Delta right
  • 00:25:16
    so it goes up another 10% maybe they go
  • 00:25:19
    to a 96 Delta yeah but it's money call
  • 00:25:23
    right it's just like yeah exactly
  • 00:25:26
    exactly so those bonds he just issued
  • 00:25:28
    those are the ones where there's this
  • 00:25:31
    big significant move in gamma oh sorry
  • 00:25:33
    in Delta each time right so you know
  • 00:25:36
    those are the ones that are creating the
  • 00:25:39
    the selling or the buying to the
  • 00:25:41
    downside so this is you know if you if
  • 00:25:43
    you think about what happens when you
  • 00:25:45
    have a lot of options in a market you
  • 00:25:48
    you generally see a decline in the
  • 00:25:50
    volatility because the guys trading the
  • 00:25:52
    gamma are essentially cushioning the
  • 00:25:54
    moves right they're selling is it
  • 00:25:57
    getting over over over strong and
  • 00:25:59
    they're buying back is it's it's getting
  • 00:26:01
    oversold I'm glad he brought up that
  • 00:26:03
    idea of if volatility dampens because I
  • 00:26:05
    want to ask you about the ability for
  • 00:26:07
    for sailor to issue these at the um at
  • 00:26:10
    the coupons that he is doing obviously
  • 00:26:12
    you know when he started this there was
  • 00:26:13
    a lot of yeah like senior converts that
  • 00:26:16
    were you know priced at like
  • 00:26:19
    2.25 8.75% so above
  • 00:26:22
    zero if VA if implied Vol started to
  • 00:26:25
    come back lower um would he have less
  • 00:26:29
    ability to issue at zero would that be
  • 00:26:31
    dependent on it yeah I mean just to be
  • 00:26:34
    clear it's it's realizable so it's
  • 00:26:36
    what's actually happening in his stock
  • 00:26:38
    implied Vol is is where the the the
  • 00:26:41
    convertible bonds are pricing so they're
  • 00:26:43
    pricing H the the implicit the thing
  • 00:26:46
    that that is is hard to well the thing
  • 00:26:48
    that needs to be calculated to find out
  • 00:26:50
    the price is essentially the the
  • 00:26:52
    volatility so it's like what volatility
  • 00:26:54
    is the price of this CB implying right
  • 00:26:58
    so it's the realized V if realized Vault
  • 00:27:00
    drops as you say it is going to impede
  • 00:27:02
    his ability to continue issuing zero
  • 00:27:05
    zero coupon uh convertible bonds hey
  • 00:27:08
    everyone this episode is sponsored by
  • 00:27:10
    Ledger for the past decade Ledger has
  • 00:27:12
    been the global leader in digital assets
  • 00:27:14
    security trusted to secure more than 20%
  • 00:27:16
    of the world's crypto assets celebrating
  • 00:27:18
    10 years of innovation Ledger is making
  • 00:27:20
    digital ownership more secure and
  • 00:27:22
    accessible with their latest products
  • 00:27:23
    Ledger stacks and Ledger Flex these
  • 00:27:25
    wallets feature the world's first secure
  • 00:27:27
    touchcreen simplifying your digital
  • 00:27:29
    transactions while ensuring
  • 00:27:31
    uncompromising security through this
  • 00:27:33
    Ledger secure chip and proprietary OS
  • 00:27:35
    plus with The Ledger security key app
  • 00:27:38
    you can say goodbye to traditional
  • 00:27:39
    passwords and step up your digital
  • 00:27:41
    protection your entire crypto experience
  • 00:27:43
    got a whole lot easier ready to protect
  • 00:27:44
    your assets choose the most trusted name
  • 00:27:46
    and Hardware wallets Ledger and take
  • 00:27:48
    control of your digital Security today
  • 00:27:50
    at ledger.com all right back to the show
  • 00:27:53
    today's episode is brought to you by
  • 00:27:54
    Mantra chain Mantra Chain's Manet has
  • 00:27:57
    officially launched marking a major
  • 00:27:58
    milestone in their journey to become the
  • 00:28:00
    go-to platform for tokenized real world
  • 00:28:02
    assets designed as a specialized real
  • 00:28:05
    world asset layer one blockchain Mantra
  • 00:28:07
    chain paves the way for traditional
  • 00:28:09
    financial institutions to enter the web
  • 00:28:11
    3 space seamlessly and secure with a
  • 00:28:13
    high performance infrastructure that can
  • 00:28:14
    handle both permissionless and
  • 00:28:16
    permission applications Mantra is
  • 00:28:18
    setting the standard as the home of real
  • 00:28:20
    world assets plus they're making waves
  • 00:28:22
    with big Partnerships like their $500
  • 00:28:24
    million project with mag group and the
  • 00:28:27
    new collaboration with with the xan bank
  • 00:28:29
    and the UAE montra chain is all about
  • 00:28:31
    building a compliant scalable future for
  • 00:28:33
    asset tokenization ready to explore the
  • 00:28:35
    feature of asset tokenization visit
  • 00:28:37
    Mantra chain. learn more and see how
  • 00:28:40
    they're shaping the finance of tomorrow
  • 00:28:42
    and then my next question is just around
  • 00:28:43
    like claim on the Bitcoin and and value
  • 00:28:46
    Cel as well because you know as we
  • 00:28:48
    discuss this it feels like and you know
  • 00:28:50
    this is something the critics may bring
  • 00:28:51
    up is that effectively Sailors using you
  • 00:28:55
    know people that don't understand these
  • 00:28:56
    Dynamics who just buy the Equity is
  • 00:28:58
    basically exit liity for the convert
  • 00:29:00
    Bond guys to be able to you know Harvest
  • 00:29:02
    this gamma and this in this yield so my
  • 00:29:04
    question is um you know if you're an if
  • 00:29:07
    you're an equity holder how do how do
  • 00:29:09
    you see that claim on on on the Bitcoin
  • 00:29:12
    um but obviously with respect to you
  • 00:29:15
    know these fix fixed income instruments
  • 00:29:16
    they're not secured by the Bitcoin or
  • 00:29:18
    anything like that so I'm just wondering
  • 00:29:20
    like in a in a potential you know when
  • 00:29:21
    you when you are in fixed income worlds
  • 00:29:23
    you're always thinking about what does
  • 00:29:24
    it things look like during a liquidation
  • 00:29:25
    scenario so during a liquidation
  • 00:29:27
    scenario
  • 00:29:28
    where does the claim on the Bitcoin
  • 00:29:30
    reside in basically is my question so I
  • 00:29:33
    think none of the converts have any
  • 00:29:35
    claim on the Bitcoin um so that is not a
  • 00:29:40
    collateralization option he's literally
  • 00:29:42
    just pricing these on the volatility of
  • 00:29:44
    the underlying stock right but as his
  • 00:29:47
    Bitcoin stock gets bigger and bigger and
  • 00:29:49
    more important then obviously that
  • 00:29:51
    provides some level of credit Clarity to
  • 00:29:54
    the convertible Bond Traders because
  • 00:29:56
    they're like okay you know they they
  • 00:29:59
    might not have a claim on the Bitcoin
  • 00:30:00
    but they do have a claim on micro
  • 00:30:01
    strategy so in in the event that there
  • 00:30:04
    is a uh a bankruptcy um then he would
  • 00:30:09
    end up selling the Bitcoin but the only
  • 00:30:11
    event that there would potentially be a
  • 00:30:13
    bankruptcy is when he can't you know pay
  • 00:30:16
    pay things anymore he can't pay the
  • 00:30:17
    coupons or he can't pay off the debt
  • 00:30:20
    that means that Bitcoin is reversed
  • 00:30:22
    quite violently and we're in a bit of a
  • 00:30:24
    a dire situation with Bitcoin so if you
  • 00:30:28
    basically try and map out where does
  • 00:30:30
    this go wrong it's basically Bitcoin
  • 00:30:34
    having some level of failure and and
  • 00:30:37
    dropping below 80% from where we are
  • 00:30:40
    today so so long as you're a Bitcoin
  • 00:30:42
    Maxi um I think you're fairly
  • 00:30:44
    comfortable owning micro strategy stock
  • 00:30:48
    and my view very strongly is that this
  • 00:30:50
    mnav should be actually trading a lot
  • 00:30:53
    higher than one and a half two but it's
  • 00:30:55
    going to trade it's going to struggle to
  • 00:30:58
    keep premium while he's smashing the ATM
  • 00:31:01
    to the degree that he is I mean there
  • 00:31:03
    there seems to be a level of urgency
  • 00:31:05
    with sailor's behavior I'm intrigued as
  • 00:31:06
    to what you think like I never imagined
  • 00:31:10
    he would have done this amount of the
  • 00:31:12
    ATM by this stage I mean it's absolutely
  • 00:31:17
    crazy to to think of how much he's
  • 00:31:19
    actually raised I haven't done the math
  • 00:31:21
    since this morning based on his latest
  • 00:31:23
    purchase but I think we've got to be
  • 00:31:25
    getting close to 10 billion of the ATM
  • 00:31:27
    already done yeah it feels like you know
  • 00:31:30
    obviously the the the first level
  • 00:31:32
    assumption is oh you know bitcoin's up
  • 00:31:33
    and he you know his premium's up so you
  • 00:31:35
    know he can issue buns but I wonder if
  • 00:31:37
    it's more to do with just where implied
  • 00:31:38
    ball is sitting and just the ability to
  • 00:31:41
    uh to issue into that well the implied
  • 00:31:43
    ball is affecting or the the realized
  • 00:31:46
    Vol is affecting the convertible Bond
  • 00:31:48
    pricing I I'm so I'm talking about the
  • 00:31:51
    premium to na here oh okay yeah so I'm
  • 00:31:56
    like I think that that should go higher
  • 00:31:59
    um I think that you know S&P inclusion
  • 00:32:01
    being on the horizon um NASDAQ Etc all
  • 00:32:05
    this passive flow money that could come
  • 00:32:08
    into micro strategy I think also the the
  • 00:32:11
    fact that no one can catch him even if
  • 00:32:14
    micro stoed at their board meeting you
  • 00:32:18
    know next week or this I think it's this
  • 00:32:20
    week isn't it is if they announce it
  • 00:32:23
    that they're going to start buying
  • 00:32:24
    Bitcoin they're never going to buy
  • 00:32:25
    Bitcoin with their entire balance sheet
  • 00:32:27
    and even if they did I don't think
  • 00:32:29
    they'd ever managed to acquire as much
  • 00:32:31
    Bitcoin as sailor has got so but the
  • 00:32:35
    point I was making is he seems to be
  • 00:32:36
    just urgently trying to get as much
  • 00:32:39
    Bitcoin as he possibly can so you know I
  • 00:32:43
    think this is what's interesting is
  • 00:32:45
    obviously what's holding the the
  • 00:32:46
    multiplier down um because he just keeps
  • 00:32:49
    selling into it every week um but I'd
  • 00:32:53
    I'd be intrigued as to your uh your view
  • 00:32:56
    on that there was a lot of discussion
  • 00:32:57
    about when the Bitcoin ETFs came out
  • 00:32:59
    whether that would you know remove the
  • 00:33:02
    premium to nav right because you know
  • 00:33:03
    there's there's some theories that the
  • 00:33:06
    reason for that premium is is due to the
  • 00:33:09
    ability for you know some of these
  • 00:33:11
    certain deaths to be able to buy like a
  • 00:33:13
    you know a you know license security
  • 00:33:16
    Equity um and it's a bit more
  • 00:33:18
    complicated for obviously like spot
  • 00:33:20
    Bitcoin and and even more so or lesso
  • 00:33:22
    for the the Bitcoin ETF so what I find
  • 00:33:25
    really interesting is that we have the
  • 00:33:27
    Bitcoin spot ETFs now we even have the
  • 00:33:30
    options on them as well and yet we
  • 00:33:32
    haven't seen that premium come lower so
  • 00:33:34
    obviously you know it's not it can't be
  • 00:33:36
    that hey because I thought you know you
  • 00:33:39
    know decent probability that when those
  • 00:33:41
    options launch and especially the ETFs
  • 00:33:43
    launch that we would see that come back
  • 00:33:44
    down to zero but we haven't so I don't
  • 00:33:46
    really know well this is exactly what I
  • 00:33:48
    thought and I think I think sailor
  • 00:33:51
    probably thought it as well to some
  • 00:33:52
    degree yeah so maybe he was rushing and
  • 00:33:54
    he's just like oh I got to get
  • 00:33:55
    these out of
  • 00:33:56
    here but I think what what has changed
  • 00:33:59
    in sailor's mind is he's had a
  • 00:34:00
    realization that and he talks about it
  • 00:34:03
    now he talks about micr strategy as
  • 00:34:05
    being a Bitcoin Refinery company and you
  • 00:34:08
    know that he's taking the oil and
  • 00:34:10
    refining it into usable instruments and
  • 00:34:13
    I think this is is really interesting
  • 00:34:15
    basically it's probably a bit of a
  • 00:34:17
    stretch to call it Refinery but he's
  • 00:34:19
    he's running a treasury management
  • 00:34:21
    company he's leveraging the capital
  • 00:34:22
    markets to get even more Bitcoin and if
  • 00:34:25
    you take a step back and go okay if I
  • 00:34:28
    could
  • 00:34:29
    myself issue future equity in my
  • 00:34:33
    performance right could I and use that
  • 00:34:37
    to buy Bitcoin would I want to do that
  • 00:34:39
    today rather than wait until I've earn
  • 00:34:41
    that money yeah definitely if I could
  • 00:34:45
    borrow money and buy more Bitcoin and
  • 00:34:48
    borrow money on fiveyear debt right
  • 00:34:51
    would I want to do that and buy Bitcoin
  • 00:34:54
    yes I absolutely would certainly on an
  • 00:34:56
    LTV of like 20 right which is I think
  • 00:34:59
    what he's at today versus the market cap
  • 00:35:03
    so when you put all that together you go
  • 00:35:05
    hang on this is just an amazing way to
  • 00:35:08
    add leverage into
  • 00:35:11
    Bitcoin without doing it in a way that
  • 00:35:13
    is gonna just cost you and bleed you
  • 00:35:15
    like a a leveraged Bitcoin ETF would
  • 00:35:19
    because they're just using options right
  • 00:35:21
    so this is actually a very sophisticated
  • 00:35:24
    way for you as an average investor to
  • 00:35:27
    get leverage into Bitcoin and and to
  • 00:35:31
    keep growing your Bitcoin stack and I
  • 00:35:33
    think and fast forwarding what you can
  • 00:35:35
    actually get as your Bitcoin stack and
  • 00:35:38
    that's the point as well is like you
  • 00:35:40
    know that by adding micro strategy
  • 00:35:42
    you're going to increase the amount of
  • 00:35:44
    Bitcoin per share every year so that's
  • 00:35:48
    way better than an ETF so it definitely
  • 00:35:52
    deserves to trade on a premium and then
  • 00:35:54
    you know the other thing that we've sort
  • 00:35:56
    of I've been trying to to debate with
  • 00:35:58
    with Equity people is well okay sure
  • 00:36:01
    it's not earnings that he's producing
  • 00:36:03
    but it is increasing the asset base
  • 00:36:07
    right which is what earnings essentially
  • 00:36:10
    end up doing to a company so if you just
  • 00:36:15
    kind of say okay forget about the fact
  • 00:36:16
    that it's not technically
  • 00:36:18
    earnings and this is money hitting the
  • 00:36:21
    asset base why is this not the same
  • 00:36:23
    thing and therefore why should I not
  • 00:36:25
    apply a multiple to earnings and
  • 00:36:29
    therefore you can see this a lot lot
  • 00:36:31
    higher right you know if he's earned $40
  • 00:36:35
    million of new assets this year in terms
  • 00:36:40
    of that uh that accretive
  • 00:36:43
    dilution than you know 40 million on a
  • 00:36:46
    multiplier of of or sorry price earnings
  • 00:36:49
    of 40 billion sorry on a price earnings
  • 00:36:52
    of of 20 well then that's an $800
  • 00:36:54
    billion company yeah those are the
  • 00:36:56
    underlying assumptions between you know
  • 00:36:58
    some of these metrics that they've come
  • 00:36:59
    out like with Bitcoin yield and Bitcoin
  • 00:37:01
    per share right like what are those
  • 00:37:02
    about because I feel like you know it's
  • 00:37:04
    obviously not a yield bearing instrument
  • 00:37:06
    so what do they mean by that when they
  • 00:37:07
    say that was that's exactly it that's
  • 00:37:09
    the increase in the in the Bitcoin per
  • 00:37:11
    share so so that's that's him saying you
  • 00:37:15
    hold your Bitcoin you hold your micro
  • 00:37:17
    strategy share one share every year
  • 00:37:20
    we're increasing that this year we've
  • 00:37:22
    increased it by 60% or whatever the
  • 00:37:24
    Bitcoin yield is that's hugely accre to
  • 00:37:28
    the shareholder again right so then if
  • 00:37:30
    you take that 60 and you go okay that's
  • 00:37:32
    earnings right then you can forward
  • 00:37:35
    extrapolate what I was saying before
  • 00:37:37
    rather than you know people go yeah but
  • 00:37:39
    it's not earnings you're like okay okay
  • 00:37:41
    fine but where do earnings end up
  • 00:37:44
    earnings end up on the balance sheet as
  • 00:37:45
    new assets so this is essentially a way
  • 00:37:48
    to consider that this could be earnings
  • 00:37:51
    and therefore back to my point if you if
  • 00:37:54
    he goes and does another series of ATMs
  • 00:37:57
    next year and and Carries On at the rate
  • 00:38:00
    he's going I mean he's going to be
  • 00:38:01
    adding a 100 billion of new Bitcoin in a
  • 00:38:04
    single year I mean that is turning that
  • 00:38:08
    company even on a 10 PE into a trillion
  • 00:38:11
    dollar
  • 00:38:12
    company so where do you put the
  • 00:38:14
    multiplier right yeah you got to rethink
  • 00:38:16
    them yeah you you can't just go okay
  • 00:38:19
    this is just a slightly better than the
  • 00:38:22
    ETF no no this is a very different ball
  • 00:38:25
    game now we're talking about have
  • 00:38:27
    modeled much in terms of liquidation
  • 00:38:30
    risk quote unquote other than saying you
  • 00:38:32
    know if Bitcoin goes down 80% there
  • 00:38:34
    could be some issues you know sailor has
  • 00:38:36
    already ridden a pretty significant draw
  • 00:38:38
    down though it wasn't quite as levered
  • 00:38:39
    at the time obviously of course but they
  • 00:38:41
    have been through that at least once um
  • 00:38:43
    you know just looking at the current
  • 00:38:45
    like annual interest expenses you know
  • 00:38:47
    correct me if I'm wrong but I have like
  • 00:38:48
    34.6 million roughly a year have you
  • 00:38:51
    modeled out how you think or or how they
  • 00:38:54
    might be thinking about you know that
  • 00:38:55
    interest coverage um in terms terms of
  • 00:38:57
    potential liquidation risk or something
  • 00:38:59
    or what could happen and how much of the
  • 00:39:01
    traditional software business revenues
  • 00:39:03
    cover that interest expense I haven't
  • 00:39:05
    modeled it or spent time on it in any
  • 00:39:07
    particular detail but what I do know is
  • 00:39:10
    that last time I looked at the numbers
  • 00:39:12
    they the revenues from the software
  • 00:39:14
    business were just about covering all of
  • 00:39:17
    the interest rate expenses and obviously
  • 00:39:19
    the more he can issue at zero coup on
  • 00:39:21
    and he will be those bonds that he's got
  • 00:39:24
    at 2.25 you said and 0.875
  • 00:39:28
    yeah he's going to be calling them as
  • 00:39:29
    soon as he possibly can he's going to
  • 00:39:31
    call all of them but that that's
  • 00:39:33
    probably something also to mention for
  • 00:39:35
    people to understand is that there is
  • 00:39:37
    this soft cool feature in all of these
  • 00:39:40
    bonds which means after a certain period
  • 00:39:42
    of time if the if the price of the stock
  • 00:39:46
    is a certain amount above the strike
  • 00:39:49
    price he can go to all the bond holders
  • 00:39:52
    and do what is called a soft call so
  • 00:39:55
    it's it's basically his call to say I
  • 00:39:58
    want you to either convert your bonds or
  • 00:40:02
    I'm buying those bonds back from you at
  • 00:40:04
    par now par obviously he's got a a 30%
  • 00:40:09
    premium to par they're trading at 30%
  • 00:40:11
    premium to par because they're 30% of
  • 00:40:12
    the money at least so what what they
  • 00:40:15
    tend to do is price in a soft call after
  • 00:40:18
    a period of time where you will have had
  • 00:40:20
    that time Decay decrease a certain
  • 00:40:22
    amount and they tend to price it at a at
  • 00:40:24
    a level where the options guys have at
  • 00:40:26
    least managed to make uh make their
  • 00:40:29
    money right so after a certain amount of
  • 00:40:33
    time they become callable for him which
  • 00:40:35
    means he can say okay I'm calling those
  • 00:40:37
    bonds if you don't convert I get to buy
  • 00:40:39
    them back at par where they par is
  • 00:40:42
    already at 130 so par means 100 so he'd
  • 00:40:46
    be buying them back off them at at a
  • 00:40:48
    discount of 30 points so of course they
  • 00:40:50
    convert they convert straight away right
  • 00:40:53
    which means that debt is suddenly
  • 00:40:55
    removed from his balance sheet you get
  • 00:40:57
    new share
  • 00:40:58
    issuances those shares collapse into the
  • 00:41:01
    Delta so there's no impact on the on the
  • 00:41:04
    share price because it's new Shares are
  • 00:41:06
    issued there's that short that short is
  • 00:41:08
    collapsed by the convert Bond Bond
  • 00:41:11
    holders into that short right and that's
  • 00:41:15
    really interesting so the reason the
  • 00:41:17
    upside like if you just think about a
  • 00:41:19
    normal payoff di diagram the reason the
  • 00:41:22
    upside is s un limit is because it gets
  • 00:41:24
    called but you know just turns into
  • 00:41:26
    Equity so you still have that UPS versus
  • 00:41:27
    like AA a traditional you know callable
  • 00:41:30
    Bond when that gets called like the
  • 00:41:32
    upside is capped right because you don't
  • 00:41:34
    actually get anything out of that right
  • 00:41:36
    you're talking about a cable straight
  • 00:41:38
    Bond yeah with no yeah yeah yeah yeah I
  • 00:41:42
    mean of of course if it doesn't have a a
  • 00:41:44
    cool option in it then there's there's
  • 00:41:46
    no ability to to convert it into the
  • 00:41:49
    stock but that's the thing they convert
  • 00:41:50
    it into the stock if they want they can
  • 00:41:52
    keep running it very unlikely by the way
  • 00:41:54
    that a convertible Bond AR guy would
  • 00:41:57
    keep running it he just converts
  • 00:41:59
    straight into the stock Nets out his
  • 00:42:00
    position he's out right ready for the
  • 00:42:03
    next one please Michael let's go which
  • 00:42:06
    is exactly what will happen so he has
  • 00:42:09
    this this captive
  • 00:42:11
    Market but I think to your earlier the
  • 00:42:14
    earlier part of the question what can go
  • 00:42:15
    wrong I think if we had an 80% draw down
  • 00:42:19
    in Bitcoin obviously then get to a point
  • 00:42:22
    where the amount the value of the
  • 00:42:24
    Bitcoin is the same value of the
  • 00:42:27
    outstanding debt I think you then run
  • 00:42:29
    the risk that we trade at a discount to
  • 00:42:31
    a
  • 00:42:32
    Navy um and so that obviously um gets
  • 00:42:37
    quite hairy uh for an investor so it's
  • 00:42:40
    something that people need to pay
  • 00:42:41
    attention to like this is leverage
  • 00:42:44
    upside it's also leverage downside
  • 00:42:46
    obviously you know there's a lot of
  • 00:42:48
    speculation right now on this idea of
  • 00:42:50
    being included in either like the NASDAQ
  • 00:42:52
    or or the S&P how do you view the
  • 00:42:54
    probabilities of that occurring and how
  • 00:42:55
    much do you think of that as like big
  • 00:42:57
    into where the price has gone recently
  • 00:42:58
    and also potentially that premium I I
  • 00:43:01
    would just like to say that I'm probably
  • 00:43:02
    not qualified to to make a a view on
  • 00:43:05
    this I don't know much about index
  • 00:43:07
    inclusion rules in the United States uh
  • 00:43:10
    but what I would say is that from my
  • 00:43:12
    understanding um Tesla uh was um
  • 00:43:16
    obviously not included for some time and
  • 00:43:19
    I think that a part of that was it had
  • 00:43:22
    run up very quickly and people thought
  • 00:43:25
    or the people making the vote on the
  • 00:43:26
    index
  • 00:43:27
    uh team had some view that you know
  • 00:43:30
    perhaps it could draw back down again
  • 00:43:32
    and then you know they're they're
  • 00:43:34
    rotating straight back out again so I
  • 00:43:36
    think what what the the team that will
  • 00:43:40
    make this decision will be deciding will
  • 00:43:43
    be a number of inputs and it won't
  • 00:43:45
    necessarily be a slam dunk for sailor
  • 00:43:47
    because he's got there so quickly and
  • 00:43:50
    they probably want to see a few rounds
  • 00:43:53
    of um of potential index inclusions and
  • 00:43:56
    him always being on the ticket uh for
  • 00:44:00
    for him to make it that's that's that's
  • 00:44:03
    what I hear from people way smarter than
  • 00:44:05
    me about index inclusion okay so
  • 00:44:06
    circling back on everything that we've
  • 00:44:08
    talked about thus far you started the
  • 00:44:09
    show by saying that micro strategy is
  • 00:44:11
    one of the most misunderstood Financial
  • 00:44:14
    assets and instruments around so after
  • 00:44:16
    everything we talked about how would you
  • 00:44:18
    summarize is like the the biggest
  • 00:44:19
    misconception of everything we've talked
  • 00:44:21
    about thus far I think the earliest one
  • 00:44:24
    is is basically an ETF and I still see
  • 00:44:26
    people make that comment so like that's
  • 00:44:29
    a really bad misconception as we've
  • 00:44:32
    we've discussed because he's always
  • 00:44:34
    aiming to add to bitcoin per share so if
  • 00:44:37
    you're an ETF if you're a holder of an
  • 00:44:39
    ETF you're essentially just bleeding
  • 00:44:41
    because you're you're paying the fee out
  • 00:44:42
    of your shareholding every year um you
  • 00:44:46
    know there's a there's an ETF in in SW
  • 00:44:50
    in Sweden listed in Sweden it charges
  • 00:44:52
    you a two and a half% fee annually on
  • 00:44:55
    the Bitcoin it holds so so you're just
  • 00:44:58
    bleeding 2.5% out of your shareholding
  • 00:45:01
    the value of your shareholding every
  • 00:45:03
    year with mic strategy is the opposite
  • 00:45:06
    so you're getting more Bitcoin per share
  • 00:45:08
    he's charging you no fee um so it's
  • 00:45:11
    secretive as as we've discussed many
  • 00:45:13
    times so I think that's the number one
  • 00:45:16
    misconception and I hear it all the time
  • 00:45:17
    why wouldn't you just buy
  • 00:45:19
    ibit like it's it's so different uh from
  • 00:45:23
    ibit you know he is literally leveraging
  • 00:45:27
    violently leveraging the capital markets
  • 00:45:29
    to get as much Bitcoin as he possibly
  • 00:45:31
    can think back to that example of you as
  • 00:45:34
    an individual saying how can I bring
  • 00:45:36
    forward my future earnings on some sort
  • 00:45:39
    of equity of Felix right I would love to
  • 00:45:42
    be able to forward sell that and buy
  • 00:45:44
    Bitcoin with that right but you can't
  • 00:45:47
    but Micro strategy can by selling their
  • 00:45:49
    stock right same with the with the debt
  • 00:45:52
    I can borrow money in the form of either
  • 00:45:54
    convertible or straight debt right no
  • 00:45:57
    one no one as an individual can do that
  • 00:46:01
    unless they're worth billions most
  • 00:46:03
    likely and you know their bank loves
  • 00:46:05
    them and will always lend them money um
  • 00:46:07
    but I it's certainly not true of me and
  • 00:46:09
    I'm sure it's not true of the majority
  • 00:46:11
    of people um that you can't just go to
  • 00:46:13
    your bank and go can you just let me 50
  • 00:46:15
    million bucks to to buy some Bitcoin um
  • 00:46:18
    it's not going to happen so I think
  • 00:46:21
    there's that aspect of basically using
  • 00:46:24
    sailor as your way of increasing your
  • 00:46:27
    Bitcoin Holdings now of course if
  • 00:46:29
    Bitcoin goes lower there is a chance
  • 00:46:32
    that you get all that detraction and so
  • 00:46:34
    you end up with less Bitcoin than you
  • 00:46:36
    could have had than if you spent you
  • 00:46:38
    know 10 grand on bitcoin versus 10 grand
  • 00:46:41
    on micr strategy stock right so there is
  • 00:46:45
    of course this this thing to understand
  • 00:46:47
    that and this is where of course all the
  • 00:46:50
    the the people that are being negative
  • 00:46:51
    about his stock pointing to for them
  • 00:46:53
    they see absolutely zero value in that
  • 00:46:55
    premium so and the minute you say well
  • 00:46:59
    you know what about earnings and why
  • 00:47:02
    can't we attribute some level of price
  • 00:47:03
    earnings to this then they oh of course
  • 00:47:05
    it's not earnings you an idiot it's like
  • 00:47:07
    well it's not earnings I get that but
  • 00:47:09
    where do earnings end up as I said
  • 00:47:11
    previously it's like they end up on your
  • 00:47:13
    balance sheet they end up as Assets in
  • 00:47:14
    the company or potentially as a dividend
  • 00:47:16
    paid so that's exactly what he's doing
  • 00:47:19
    so why could we not just sort of think
  • 00:47:22
    about it in a different way this is
  • 00:47:23
    something that no one has ever seen
  • 00:47:25
    before so you have to think about it in
  • 00:47:27
    slightly different ways and try to
  • 00:47:29
    understand what is really happening here
  • 00:47:31
    and it is a creating continuous value to
  • 00:47:34
    the balance sheet to the asset base
  • 00:47:37
    therefore in a way it's a type of
  • 00:47:39
    earnings for the company and then we
  • 00:47:42
    should perhaps be thinking about this on
  • 00:47:43
    a price earnings basis and maybe this is
  • 00:47:46
    why sailor is doing this as violently as
  • 00:47:49
    he can he wants to demonstrate to people
  • 00:47:52
    the value that he can add in a single
  • 00:47:55
    year right and if you're you're not
  • 00:47:57
    thinking about this as earnings then
  • 00:47:58
    you're just completely mispricing the
  • 00:48:00
    stock because he's completely changed
  • 00:48:02
    the basis of the value of the company in
  • 00:48:04
    a single year and that's essentially
  • 00:48:08
    what an amazing earnings year would do
  • 00:48:11
    so maybe he's acting in this very
  • 00:48:14
    violent way in order to try and
  • 00:48:16
    establish that base of saying you need
  • 00:48:19
    to give me a PE that's such a great
  • 00:48:21
    point because you know to your to your
  • 00:48:22
    point like the only reason it doesn't
  • 00:48:23
    show up in an income statement is just
  • 00:48:25
    because of how we decided to ruct income
  • 00:48:27
    statements right but to your point where
  • 00:48:29
    does that income go it goes on to
  • 00:48:31
    retained earnings or as a dividend so
  • 00:48:32
    it's just instead of just showing up in
  • 00:48:34
    an income statement which is just
  • 00:48:35
    arbitrarily what we decided are things
  • 00:48:37
    that show up there it just goes on the
  • 00:48:39
    balance sheet that's really interesting
  • 00:48:42
    I'm just thinking out loud with you now
  • 00:48:43
    and just sort of extrapolating that I
  • 00:48:45
    think that could potentially be an
  • 00:48:47
    explanation of why sailor is moving as
  • 00:48:50
    aggressively he is so in 2025 people are
  • 00:48:53
    like oh my God this guy has just added
  • 00:48:57
    so much value to this
  • 00:48:59
    company right we're thinking about this
  • 00:49:02
    wrong and suddenly it's just this wakeup
  • 00:49:05
    moment for the whole market and then the
  • 00:49:07
    mnav goes through the roof yeah
  • 00:49:10
    something I meant to ask you but didn't
  • 00:49:12
    get a chance to earlier was just around
  • 00:49:13
    the the levered micro strategy ETFs and
  • 00:49:15
    your thoughts on those because you know
  • 00:49:17
    classic Financial world you take a good
  • 00:49:19
    thing and then you you start to depress
  • 00:49:22
    it a little bit and uh I don't know if
  • 00:49:24
    you're ever like a vault Trader but I
  • 00:49:25
    was messing around there in the days of
  • 00:49:27
    like when XIV blew up and it just kind
  • 00:49:28
    of reminds me of these things so curious
  • 00:49:30
    your thoughts on on the impact of those
  • 00:49:32
    lever ETFs well I was a derivative
  • 00:49:34
    Trader and I was a convert Trader which
  • 00:49:37
    you know very similar types of things
  • 00:49:39
    and for me when I look at those products
  • 00:49:42
    I'm like you
  • 00:49:44
    unfortunately you know it having traded
  • 00:49:46
    options if you're not arbing if you're
  • 00:49:49
    not gamma trading those options with the
  • 00:49:52
    richness of the price of the
  • 00:49:54
    implied you are believe leading to death
  • 00:49:58
    right and we we all know that short
  • 00:50:00
    dated options unless you get the
  • 00:50:03
    direction right first time you are going
  • 00:50:06
    to just bleed to death so I I really
  • 00:50:10
    don't trade the options and I would not
  • 00:50:12
    touch those products because those
  • 00:50:14
    products are built through basically
  • 00:50:17
    going long very high gearing options
  • 00:50:20
    which are short dat you know options out
  • 00:50:23
    of the money they'll be building a curve
  • 00:50:25
    so that they can participate and then
  • 00:50:27
    rolling out the strikes and and doing
  • 00:50:30
    all of that but yeah for me that unless
  • 00:50:33
    you want to trade it for maybe two or
  • 00:50:35
    three days and you're like I'm very sure
  • 00:50:38
    that bitcoin's gonna have an absolute
  • 00:50:40
    flyer and micro strategy is going to do
  • 00:50:42
    2x that and then you know mstu or
  • 00:50:45
    whichever one is the two or 3x ends up
  • 00:50:47
    doing you know two or 3x times that then
  • 00:50:50
    sure you know if you have a particular
  • 00:50:53
    view over a three-day period yes but but
  • 00:50:56
    even holding over a weekend you're
  • 00:50:58
    bleeding to death right Monday morning
  • 00:51:00
    you come in there's no free lunch yeah I
  • 00:51:03
    I I mean I for my personal I feel that
  • 00:51:08
    micro strategy is is more than enough uh
  • 00:51:13
    volatility yeah yeah agreed and if you
  • 00:51:15
    want more vol I don't know like like you
  • 00:51:16
    said I'd we prefer to just do my own
  • 00:51:18
    leverage in options than try to just
  • 00:51:20
    bleed out on a lever DTF and I know
  • 00:51:23
    that's my perspective for all the lever
  • 00:51:24
    dtfs you know you see you compare like
  • 00:51:26
    the 3x cues or something like that and
  • 00:51:28
    you know the tracking error is just a
  • 00:51:30
    mess yeah it's because it's because of
  • 00:51:33
    the cost of of transacting these options
  • 00:51:35
    but also as you say it's that bleed
  • 00:51:37
    which is just horrific to deal with if
  • 00:51:39
    you get your timing wrong like that's
  • 00:51:41
    the thing with with with options if
  • 00:51:44
    you're not camera hedging them you've
  • 00:51:46
    got to get your timing absolutely spot
  • 00:51:48
    on certainly for the short dated any
  • 00:51:50
    closing thoughts there overall on the
  • 00:51:52
    whole micro strategy world and and your
  • 00:51:54
    thoughts on where this goes for the next
  • 00:51:56
    12 months before we wrap up look I think
  • 00:51:58
    it's an absolutely fascinating stock I
  • 00:52:00
    think it is changing the whole Paradigm
  • 00:52:02
    of markets I think that we will see more
  • 00:52:05
    and more companies announce the Bitcoin
  • 00:52:08
    strategy because of the success he's
  • 00:52:10
    happening he's having I'm paying close
  • 00:52:13
    attention to other early movers in
  • 00:52:16
    specific markets I think meta planet is
  • 00:52:19
    is someone to watch obviously uh
  • 00:52:22
    employing a very similar strategy to
  • 00:52:25
    micro strategy I mean I mean what
  • 00:52:26
    they've taken it from 20 million to 500
  • 00:52:29
    million and now you know obviously if
  • 00:52:33
    they get to a billion then they're start
  • 00:52:34
    going to start to attract much larger
  • 00:52:36
    investors and then they can also have
  • 00:52:39
    their own flywheel I mean they're
  • 00:52:41
    trading I think about a five times
  • 00:52:44
    multiple um but I think that that is
  • 00:52:46
    demonstrative of of the growth that they
  • 00:52:49
    can potentially have versus uh micro
  • 00:52:51
    strategy in terms of just accreting much
  • 00:52:54
    faster that lower rate which we've
  • 00:52:56
    already seen um so yeah look I I think
  • 00:53:00
    this is a really fascinating space to be
  • 00:53:03
    watching I I'm not giving anyone any
  • 00:53:05
    investment advice of course um but I do
  • 00:53:08
    think that that premium to nav uh should
  • 00:53:11
    expand as people understand more and
  • 00:53:13
    more that this is a way to be thinking
  • 00:53:16
    of earnings coming into the balance
  • 00:53:18
    sheet rather than okay it's not
  • 00:53:20
    technically earnings so I'm not going to
  • 00:53:22
    count it as earnings as you said um I
  • 00:53:25
    think that that is potentially a
  • 00:53:28
    fascinating way to be thinking about
  • 00:53:30
    this and it puts the stock a lot higher
  • 00:53:32
    but of course there's downside if
  • 00:53:34
    Bitcoin starts crashing this Stock's
  • 00:53:37
    going to crash a lot harder you will see
  • 00:53:39
    that uh premium Tav probably drop to one
  • 00:53:42
    as things get really hairy and uh and
  • 00:53:45
    maybe even a discount well said look
  • 00:53:48
    Richard it was great to finally get you
  • 00:53:49
    on the show um where can folks go if
  • 00:53:51
    they want to hear more about your your
  • 00:53:52
    thoughts and and amings like any good
  • 00:53:55
    Finance Pro I'm on LinkedIn um and so
  • 00:53:58
    LinkedIn under my own name I think
  • 00:54:00
    there's only one Richard byworth based
  • 00:54:03
    in Switzerland certainly um and then on
  • 00:54:06
    Twitter I'm Richard byworth um so all
  • 00:54:10
    one word so easy to find awesome all
  • 00:54:14
    right well thanks for joining us that
  • 00:54:15
    was really fascinating for me thanks one
  • 00:54:17
    more thing I should say Felix is I I
  • 00:54:19
    have my own podcast slightly different
  • 00:54:22
    it's not designed to be a Bitcoin
  • 00:54:23
    podcast it's designed to be a podcast
  • 00:54:25
    looking at various different issues with
  • 00:54:27
    the world that's called sees the future
  • 00:54:30
    syz that's on YouTube Spotify Apple Etc
  • 00:54:34
    so I'd love to have people come join me
  • 00:54:36
    there as well yeah love it all right
  • 00:54:39
    thanks Richard thanks Felix
  • 00:54:44
    [Music]
Tags
  • MicroStrategy
  • convertible bonds
  • financial strategy
  • Bitcoin
  • stock volatility
  • asset leveraging
  • market innovation
  • investment misconceptions
  • financial management
  • cryptocurrency