Convertible Bond Expert Breaks Down Why MicroStrategy Is Soaring | Richard Byworth
Summary
TLDRThe video highlights the unique financial strategies of MicroStrategy, focusing on how the company leverages its stock's volatility and Bitcoin holdings through convertible bonds. This approach allows the company to issue bonds at zero coupon rates, benefiting from high implied volatility. The narrative unfolds the misconception that MicroStrategy is similar to a Bitcoin ETF. Instead, it portrays the company's innovative approach to financial management and asset leveraging. MicroStrategy's method is seen as unusual in traditional finance, whereby they aim to increase Bitcoin per share and creatively utilize their balance sheet, which causes some analysts and investors to misunderstand their business model. The strategy exploits market volatility, potentially creating significant value for shareholders. However, risks exist, such as substantial Bitcoin value drops that could impair their strategic advantage. The video suggests that the evolving landscape of financial innovation, as exemplified by MicroStrategy, requires a reevaluation of traditional investment metrics, as the company's approach combines the dynamics of traditional finance with those peculiar to the cryptocurrency sector.
Takeaways
- 🔍 MicroStrategy employs a unique strategy leveraging stock volatility and convertible bonds to acquire Bitcoin.
- 📈 The company benefits from high implied volatility, allowing for advantageous bond pricing.
- 🤔 MicroStrategy's approach contrasts with being a simple Bitcoin ETF due to active financial strategy.
- 📊 Analysts may misunderstand the company's business model and its innovative financial management.
- ⚠️ There is a potential risk if Bitcoin prices drop significantly, affecting financial stability.
- 🔄 The strategy involves creative balance sheet utilization and increasing Bitcoin per share.
- 💡 Convertible bonds at zero coupon rates are central to MicroStrategy’s financial advantage.
- 🔧 The approach is akin to a Bitcoin refinery, transforming raw stock value into more profitable assets.
- 💸 Buyers of these bonds are usually convertible bond arbitrage hedge funds seeking volatility advantages.
- 🧐 Financial innovation at MicroStrategy challenges traditional investment evaluation metrics.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The speaker discusses a unique financial strategy involving continuous value creation to the company's balance sheet, considering it as a type of earnings for the company. The strategy is based on price-earnings (P/E) valuation and implies that if not considered as earnings, the stock is mispriced. This approach is illustrated with actions of a company executive, Michael Saylor, who radically transformed the company's valuation in one year.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Ledger sponsors this video, emphasizing their role in digital asset security over the past decade. They secure a significant portion of global crypto assets and have announced new products enhancing digital security interface through secure screens and proprietary software. Another sponsor, Mantra, focuses on a new blockchain catering to real-world and regulated digital assets. The host introduces Richard Byworth, discussing his extensive career in Finance, particularly in convertible bonds.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Richard Byworth shares his experience in the financial sector, describing his early career in the convertible bond market. He narrates his transition from proprietary trading to market making at a major financial institution, discussing career progression and challenges, including dealing with liquidity in the Japanese market. This experience eventually led him to pursue opportunities in hedge funds and building a robust sales career.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
The narrative continues with Richard's journey, including moving to Hong Kong to expand his business and dealing with financial challenges like negative interest rates and tight spreads. He later transitioned to the crypto industry with roles in financial services for a crypto mining company and eventually led it to become a publicly listed entity. He offers insights into managing a hedge fund-focused business dealing with convertible bonds, private equity, and litigation finance.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
The discussion unpacks the unique properties of convertible bonds, illustrating their pricing volatility and how they provide strategic financial opportunities. Michael Saylor's use of convertible bonds and issuing equity at a market premium to gather capital for Bitcoin investment is highlighted. The strategy capitalizes on the high volatility of both the company's stock and Bitcoin, considering long-term appreciation potential.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Richard explains the convertible bonds' mechanisms, including the interplay of interest rates, company credit, and stock volatility. Saylor leverages Bitcoin's volatility to achieve favorable outcomes, issuing zero-coupon bonds with high premiums, a strategy common in Japan's zero-interest environment. The discussion highlights how Saylor increases shareholder value by issuing stock at high premiums.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
The speaker clarifies convertible bonds' financial strategies, with emphasis on capturing premium and time value resulting from volatility and Delta changes. Convertible bond arbitrage traders manage these bonds, benefiting from Saylor's structured financings. The speaker explains how convertible bonds' structure allows favorable issuance even amidst volatility, impacting the stock without overt focus on conversion price until maturity.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Convertible bond arbitrage is further explored, illustrating how they maintain yield through trading volatility and Delta adjustments, managing significant financial exposure with market shifts. The conversation covers the logic of traders in maintaining neutral Delta while ensuring profits from significant volatility changes. The strategies discussed underline how convertible bonds are designed to capitalize on Saylor’s unique approach.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
The conversation investigates potential risks and claims on bitcoin holdings for fixed-income instruments in a liquidation scenario, clarifying that the bonds aren't directly collateralized by Bitcoin. The discussion reveals Saylor's strategy is influenced by goals of enhancing Bitcoin holdings aggressively through financings, despite market volatility and emerging competitors attempting similar strategies.
- 00:45:00 - 00:54:51
The episode explores market perceptions and the innovative approach Michael Saylor is employing, challenging traditional views of earnings by leveraging the asset base growth through strategic finance. This unique perspective mandates reevaluation of financial instruments reflecting company value beyond traditional metrics, altering market dynamics through strategic asset expansion and leveraging opportunities.
Mind Map
Video Q&A
What is the main financial strategy discussed in the video?
The video discusses MicroStrategy's use of convertible bonds to leverage the volatility of their stock related to Bitcoin investments.
How does MicroStrategy benefit from stock volatility and convertible bonds?
MicroStrategy uses the stock's high volatility to issue convertible bonds at zero coupon rates, allowing them to acquire more Bitcoin and create a positive balance sheet impact.
What misconceptions about MicroStrategy are mentioned in the video?
A major misconception is that MicroStrategy is like a Bitcoin ETF, whereas they actively increase Bitcoin per share and manage their balance sheet creatively.
How does MicroStrategy's strategy differ from a traditional investment in Bitcoin?
MicroStrategy's approach uses financial instruments to effectively leverage Bitcoin investments, allowing for strategic stock issuance and convertible bond benefits.
Why does the video suggest MicroStrategy is misunderstood?
The company is misunderstood because their financial strategy combines traditional finance concepts with cryptocurrency, which may not be easily grasped by typical investors.
Who are the primary buyers of MicroStrategy’s convertible bonds?
Mostly convertible bond arbitrage hedge funds purchase these bonds to benefit from the high implied volatility and potential price appreciation.
What role do interest rates play in the strategy discussed?
Interest rates are crucial in determining the attractiveness of bonds, especially with zero coupon implications in a volatile stock market.
How might the value and strategy of MicroStrategy change if Bitcoin values drop significantly?
If Bitcoin were to drop significantly, MicroStrategy could face challenges like liquidation risk, affecting their stock value and bondholder claims.
What comparison is made regarding MicroStrategy’s financial strategy?
The strategy is compared to a refinery process for Bitcoin, transforming raw value into more profitable assets via sophisticated financial products.
What is a potential risk associated with MicroStrategy’s financial strategy?
A potential risk is a significant drop in Bitcoin prices, which could devalue both their assets and stock, affecting overall financial stability.
View more video summaries
- 00:00:00this is something that no one has ever
- 00:00:01seen before so you have to think about
- 00:00:03it in slightly different ways and try to
- 00:00:06understand what is really happening here
- 00:00:08and it is a creating continuous value to
- 00:00:11the balance sheet to the asset base
- 00:00:14therefore in a way it's a type of
- 00:00:16earnings for the company and then we
- 00:00:19should perhaps be thinking about this on
- 00:00:20a price earnings basis and maybe this is
- 00:00:23why sailor is doing this as violently as
- 00:00:26he can he wants to demonstrate to people
- 00:00:29the value that he can add in a single
- 00:00:32year right and if you're not thinking
- 00:00:34about this as earnings then you're just
- 00:00:35completely mispricing the stock because
- 00:00:38he's completely changed the basis of the
- 00:00:40value of the company in a single year
- 00:00:42hey everyone this episode is sponsored
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- 00:01:24at ledger.com all right back to the show
- 00:01:27this episode is sponsored by Mantra the
- 00:01:29Mantra train is is the purpose built
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- 00:01:49today all right welcome back to another
- 00:01:52episode of on the margin and joining me
- 00:01:54today is Richard byworth who is the
- 00:01:56managing partner of C's capital and has
- 00:01:58a long story career as a convertible
- 00:02:00Bond uh salesman and Trader um very
- 00:02:03historic career through a lot of
- 00:02:05different Realms so I'm really excited
- 00:02:06to get him on the show today we're going
- 00:02:07to be chatting alling micro strategy and
- 00:02:10just really starting to try to unpack
- 00:02:11some of the more you know Advanced
- 00:02:13mechanics behind the whole idea so
- 00:02:15Richard it's really great to have you on
- 00:02:16the show I listened to your your episode
- 00:02:18a few weeks ago and I was just mind
- 00:02:20blown to somebody who could really
- 00:02:22explain these Dynamics so I just had to
- 00:02:23get you on the show so it's great to
- 00:02:24have you great Felix thanks for having
- 00:02:27me always happy to chat about it I think
- 00:02:29my strategy is is woefully misunderstood
- 00:02:32by the majority of of people so happy to
- 00:02:36try and articulate uh as much as
- 00:02:38possible uh what is a fairly complicated
- 00:02:41subject love it yeah I think that's a
- 00:02:43great goal for today so to to set the
- 00:02:46stage before we get into it all I would
- 00:02:48just love to hear a little bit about
- 00:02:49your history as I as I understand it you
- 00:02:51worked at namura and you've been in the
- 00:02:53convertible Bond industry for what feels
- 00:02:55like many years and you have a pretty
- 00:02:57good understanding so just love to hear
- 00:02:58a bit more about your background and
- 00:02:59also just like a quick one1 and what are
- 00:03:01convertible bonds and how's that
- 00:03:02different from traditional fixed income
- 00:03:04instruments sure yeah so um I started my
- 00:03:07career in London um I was desperate to
- 00:03:11get on a trading desk and by luck just
- 00:03:13sort of landed on the convertible Bond
- 00:03:16desk um I didn't know anything about the
- 00:03:18product uh before I landed there and
- 00:03:21within two weeks I was trading a book uh
- 00:03:23when my boss went on holiday and uh he
- 00:03:27handed me the the market making book for
- 00:03:29for these sort of small cap names in in
- 00:03:32Japan where we had this rather unique uh
- 00:03:36still remaining open outcry Market this
- 00:03:38was in the early
- 00:03:402000s basically everybody would call up
- 00:03:44all the other Banks and if you were the
- 00:03:45first person to call them you'd get to
- 00:03:47ask them a price and if they got you
- 00:03:49first then they'd get to ask you a price
- 00:03:51and so we called it this knock for knock
- 00:03:53Market making and these Bonds were super
- 00:03:55liquid basically the uh the market
- 00:03:58makers were were were the only liquidity
- 00:04:00and so we have you know if you didn't
- 00:04:01know what was going on in this stock you
- 00:04:03know like a let's say a metap planet
- 00:04:06today if they've suddenly announced a
- 00:04:07Bitcoin by and you haven't noticed it
- 00:04:09then uh you know you're going to be
- 00:04:11caught caught short or long uh in
- 00:04:13something you don't want um but anyway
- 00:04:16to cut a very long story short that's
- 00:04:18where I cut my teeth um so I sort of
- 00:04:20landed on this desk started learning
- 00:04:23about convertible bonds and you know I
- 00:04:25was discussing this with someone the
- 00:04:27other day because a lot of people really
- 00:04:28struggle with the payoff of a
- 00:04:31convertible Bond and what it looks like
- 00:04:33right everyone's talking about you know
- 00:04:34these convertible Bond Arbitrage Traders
- 00:04:36are aiming for the conversion price
- 00:04:38that's just not true at all right you're
- 00:04:41there for the volatility you're there to
- 00:04:43take advantage of the fact that this
- 00:04:46thing moves in particular in the case of
- 00:04:48micro
- 00:04:49strategy you want to make sure that
- 00:04:51you're capturing as much of that
- 00:04:54Arbitrage as possible so we can we can
- 00:04:56talk about that but uh just to come back
- 00:04:59to my my career so I I started as a
- 00:05:02Trader um within the convertible Bond
- 00:05:04space um in 2002 so two years later
- 00:05:09namura namura bought a business from
- 00:05:12another bank so prior to
- 00:05:152002 namura in London was basically a
- 00:05:19proprietary trading shop like all the
- 00:05:21Traders had hardly any client business
- 00:05:25we were just trading our own risk on
- 00:05:27behalf of the bank and so in 2002 they
- 00:05:31started buying businesses from other
- 00:05:33Banks they bought a derivative business
- 00:05:34from meril Lynch they bought a
- 00:05:36convertible Bond business from ING at
- 00:05:39that point I then changed from more a
- 00:05:41proprietary Trader into a market making
- 00:05:45Trader and uh as a market maker this is
- 00:05:48extremely frustrating because you come
- 00:05:52from a position of saying I want that
- 00:05:53Bond I want that on my book and then a
- 00:05:56client comes along goes give me a price
- 00:05:58in this Bond you give a two-way price
- 00:05:59and he buys it off you and you're like I
- 00:06:02need my position back guys come on you
- 00:06:04know go go get it so it's it's a
- 00:06:07slightly bit more frustrating and so I I
- 00:06:09got to the point of saying you know what
- 00:06:11I just need to join a hedge fund and so
- 00:06:14at that point it was around the time
- 00:06:17where the new team that had come in were
- 00:06:19looking to expand the international
- 00:06:21business into Tokyo obviously being
- 00:06:24Amura we were very strong in in Tokyo uh
- 00:06:27in anything that we tried to put our
- 00:06:28hand to so it was very obvious that
- 00:06:30you'd want to put a part of our team in
- 00:06:32Tokyo and so I thought to myself well
- 00:06:34that would be a great opportunity as a
- 00:06:36sales guy to be facing some of these
- 00:06:38hedge funds and show them how smart I am
- 00:06:40and then i' join one of those hedge
- 00:06:42funds and and go back to putting
- 00:06:45convertible bonds on my my book and
- 00:06:47trading them well it turns out I was a
- 00:06:49better sales guy than I was a Trader and
- 00:06:51so I ended up just building a career as
- 00:06:53a sales guy and that sort of took off we
- 00:06:56we ended up being um being one of the
- 00:06:59number one houses or the number one
- 00:07:00house I should say within a matter of
- 00:07:02months uh of landing on the ground in
- 00:07:05Tokyo uh unseating Goldman sacks at the
- 00:07:08time um and then Leman happened so in
- 00:07:112008 um I ended up running all of the
- 00:07:16derivative business as well as the
- 00:07:17convertible Bond distribution business
- 00:07:19and then Futures and options and Delta 1
- 00:07:21um and so in 2009 I moved to Hong Kong
- 00:07:25um which is where the majority of the
- 00:07:27clients were that I was facing um and I
- 00:07:29started you know really building out
- 00:07:32that business within by 2012 we were the
- 00:07:35number one aurex derivative house as
- 00:07:37well as the Japan derivative house so
- 00:07:40that was a big win for us uh as we we
- 00:07:43didn't manage to keep it for very long
- 00:07:44but uh we uh by 2014 it was starting to
- 00:07:48slip again and this was a point where
- 00:07:50the result of negative interest or or
- 00:07:53zero interest rates or negative interest
- 00:07:54rates had started to really permeate
- 00:07:57into the financial
- 00:07:58system sprads had gone really tight it
- 00:08:01was really hard to make money on all the
- 00:08:03products uh that I was selling and so it
- 00:08:05was just becoming more and more
- 00:08:07frustrating um and so by 2017 I just
- 00:08:11decided to to leave the bank I was going
- 00:08:13to join a private private Equity Firm um
- 00:08:17and in the end I was approached by a
- 00:08:19crypto company that I was invested in
- 00:08:21and they were mining uh ethereum in
- 00:08:24China and so I joined this company to
- 00:08:26help them build out Financial Services
- 00:08:29ended up becoming CEO of the company we
- 00:08:31sold the mining business we listed the
- 00:08:32company on NASDAQ through a spa um and
- 00:08:36uh that
- 00:08:38um that process of dpack was a as a
- 00:08:42whole three-hour podcast on its own but
- 00:08:44uh basically at the end of 2021 binance
- 00:08:47came along and they wanted to buy the
- 00:08:48company because we had a lot of licenses
- 00:08:50including the UK where they'd just been
- 00:08:51kicked out by the FCA that was the point
- 00:08:54where I said to the chairman and the
- 00:08:55board I don't want to be involved with
- 00:08:57binance step down and and we found
- 00:09:00myself sitting on on the beach in Costa
- 00:09:03Rica and got a call uh from uh Mark C's
- 00:09:07at part of the family and CEO of C
- 00:09:10capital and asked me if I'd I'd be
- 00:09:12interested in joining to look after the
- 00:09:15hedge fund business at CES Capital um
- 00:09:17the hedge fund business at CES capital
- 00:09:19is about $1.3 billion we do invest in
- 00:09:21convertible Bond Arbitrage managers so
- 00:09:24obviously that skill set of having
- 00:09:26looked at managers over the years sort
- 00:09:28of um is very helpful and and work with
- 00:09:31them for a long time so yeah we as well
- 00:09:34as uh hedge funds we do private equity
- 00:09:37and litigation Finance as well so that's
- 00:09:39another 500 million so in in total we're
- 00:09:43about $1.8 billion do F awesome okay so
- 00:09:46I feel like that paints a good picture
- 00:09:47of of your background of understanding
- 00:09:49the CT Bond business but also the crypto
- 00:09:51business and how they both intersect the
- 00:09:53perfect you know expression of that is
- 00:09:55obviously micro strategy so you know the
- 00:09:57the the secret sauce behind
- 00:09:59you know what sailor is up to is the
- 00:10:01convert bonds and what he can do there
- 00:10:03so I would just love for you to unpack
- 00:10:06what are the unique properties of
- 00:10:07convertible bonds you know it's it's not
- 00:10:09it's a relatively young product compared
- 00:10:11to a lot of other you know products that
- 00:10:13are out there so what are the unique
- 00:10:14properties of it and why is that you
- 00:10:17know the the secret sauce that micro
- 00:10:19strategy has started to leverage um what
- 00:10:21are the what are the reasons behind
- 00:10:22those properties that make it you know
- 00:10:23so great for him to issue so so
- 00:10:26basically a convertible bond is priced
- 00:10:28um on a number number of factors um so
- 00:10:31it's priced based on interest rates it's
- 00:10:33priced based on credit of the company so
- 00:10:36credit worthiness of the company um it's
- 00:10:39priced on the underlying stock where
- 00:10:41that is and it's priced on the
- 00:10:42volatility of that stock so all of those
- 00:10:45things come together to contribute to
- 00:10:47the pricing of a convertible Bond what
- 00:10:49Sailors realized is because his stock is
- 00:10:52so
- 00:10:53volatile it allows him to price Bonds on
- 00:10:57a zero coupon
- 00:10:59with a massive
- 00:11:00premium Now to to price a bond on a zero
- 00:11:05coupon on a 55% premium I mean you would
- 00:11:09basically need rates to be at zero I
- 00:11:12mean the only place I'd ever seen that
- 00:11:14before was in Japan where rates were at
- 00:11:18zero for a very very long time and when
- 00:11:21you combine that with a volatile stock
- 00:11:23like a soft bank for example um then you
- 00:11:26could you could end up with that level
- 00:11:28of a premum but even that was very very
- 00:11:31rare in a zero interest rate
- 00:11:34environment the thing that sailor has is
- 00:11:37this very high volatility because he's
- 00:11:39basically sitting on the volatility of
- 00:11:42Bitcoin adding leverage to that and
- 00:11:45therefore getting even more
- 00:11:47volatility and and so he's basically
- 00:11:50just uh realized that this volatility is
- 00:11:54what allows him to completely price a
- 00:11:58ridiculous outome come for him and his
- 00:12:00shareholders because what's he doing
- 00:12:02he's selling stock not just at the
- 00:12:05current rate which is what he's doing
- 00:12:06with the eatm he's selling it at a
- 00:12:09massive premium and then using that cash
- 00:12:12to buy buy Bitcoin right and I think
- 00:12:16this is the ultimate hack that he's
- 00:12:19managed to find and obviously now we're
- 00:12:20starting to see people start to
- 00:12:22replicate it but he is now so far in the
- 00:12:26lead this 42 billion 21 and 21 plan
- 00:12:30uh that he launched I really I mean I
- 00:12:31was blown away by that um it really was
- 00:12:35something that I didn't think the market
- 00:12:38could could handle in the way it did I
- 00:12:40mean he went live with that 21 billion
- 00:12:43AUM day one and the m and the stock went
- 00:12:47up I mean it was absolutely phenomenal
- 00:12:50when you had that level of dilution I
- 00:12:52mean he was a at the time he was a $50
- 00:12:54million 50 billion company and he issues
- 00:12:57you know 40% ution in the stock now and
- 00:13:01the stock goes up I mean that was the
- 00:13:03point where I realized okay something
- 00:13:06has shifted here like this is a
- 00:13:09completely different Paradigm that we're
- 00:13:11now in and he's operating on this new
- 00:13:15glitch yeah so to come to come back to
- 00:13:18your point about convertible bonds if
- 00:13:20you think about what he's doing in the
- 00:13:22stock he's let's say I use this example
- 00:13:26on the other uh chat I had but I think
- 00:13:28it's the simple one to just try and help
- 00:13:30people understand if he's got $100 of
- 00:13:34market cap in stock and he's got $30 of
- 00:13:37Bitcoin he goes and issues another $100
- 00:13:40of stock market cap becomes $200 but he
- 00:13:43buys a $100 of Bitcoin he's suddenly
- 00:13:47increased the r decreased the ratio the
- 00:13:50multiplier on that Bitcoin so massively
- 00:13:53ACC created value to shareholders all
- 00:13:56right and this is the point the dilution
- 00:13:59is a creative and this is what everybody
- 00:14:02in financial markets is really
- 00:14:04struggling to get their head around
- 00:14:06right so as long as that multiple trades
- 00:14:09there almost needs to be more multiple
- 00:14:12right so so as long as he's got a
- 00:14:13multiple there should be more multiple
- 00:14:16it should just be going high but
- 00:14:17obviously he's selling into it and
- 00:14:19pushing it down but even if it goes back
- 00:14:21down to a multiple of one he can do more
- 00:14:24converts selling it again another
- 00:14:27multiple so it everything that he's
- 00:14:30doing continues to be a creative yeah so
- 00:14:33it's really a very fascinating situation
- 00:14:36that he's found himself in did I explain
- 00:14:39enough on the convertible Bond or yeah
- 00:14:41I'll um I'll just summarize one quick
- 00:14:42thing and then dig in deeper on that
- 00:14:44that question of of value acur because I
- 00:14:46think it's very important but you know
- 00:14:47effectively you know sailor has has two
- 00:14:49options to basically raise Capital he
- 00:14:51can either issue Equity at the market
- 00:14:53like he'd mentioned but to do that he
- 00:14:55generally speaking needs needs a premium
- 00:14:58um to be able to issue into um versus
- 00:15:01you know it's a lot harder to to issue
- 00:15:03Equity when you're at a discount to nav
- 00:15:05of of the Bitcoin so that's the one
- 00:15:06route and then the other route is what
- 00:15:08you just described which is the convert
- 00:15:09bonds which you know depending on on
- 00:15:11where they trade versus the conversion
- 00:15:13price they can often you know if it's
- 00:15:15below it trades more like a bond and
- 00:15:16then if it trades you know closer or
- 00:15:18above the you know conversion price it's
- 00:15:19more like like Equity or like a call
- 00:15:21option so based on that capital
- 00:15:23structure framework I want to follow up
- 00:15:25on this question of what you mentioned
- 00:15:26about um value acrel um obviously you
- 00:15:30know you mentioned that it's you know
- 00:15:32you issue 40% more like increase in
- 00:15:34equity and you're you're saying it's a
- 00:15:36creative and I think you're right that's
- 00:15:37the thing that people are having a lot
- 00:15:38of difficulty wrapping their heads
- 00:15:40around um so that assumption does it
- 00:15:44require the assumptions of being
- 00:15:46positive on bitcoin and does it also
- 00:15:48require the assumption that it continues
- 00:15:50to go up in price in the future or can
- 00:15:52it still be a creative even if we you
- 00:15:55know go flat here if we go flat here in
- 00:15:57the multiple remains it's still
- 00:15:59accretive right you think back to that
- 00:16:01example I gave of 100 and 100 right it's
- 00:16:05whenever there's a premium to nav it's
- 00:16:08ACC creaive right and even if as I said
- 00:16:12that nav drops to one the multiplier on
- 00:16:15the nav drops to one he can still do the
- 00:16:18CB which is again net accretive there is
- 00:16:21obviously a third option he can do
- 00:16:23straight debt with no convertible uh
- 00:16:26strike price I think that if you if if
- 00:16:29you look at the way that the converts
- 00:16:31trade um it it's also important to just
- 00:16:34understand the way the payoff looks
- 00:16:36because a lot of people get their heads
- 00:16:39stuck around this conversion price and
- 00:16:42that is important at expiry it's not
- 00:16:45important now necessarily right so
- 00:16:49because of the volatility you end up
- 00:16:52with what we call in options terms you
- 00:16:54time value so the time value he's
- 00:16:57issuing a fiveyear piece of paper it's
- 00:17:00got a three-year put so essentially that
- 00:17:02pushes up your bond floor because the
- 00:17:04credit is only to three years that's
- 00:17:07where your credit risk is going to get
- 00:17:09tested is because he's got a put in it
- 00:17:11where you as an investor if par is like
- 00:17:1320 you can say you know what you you're
- 00:17:16going down the toilet I'll put those
- 00:17:17bonds back to you you got to pay me full
- 00:17:19full par price right so so that that put
- 00:17:23a there's a bit of a a stagger in the
- 00:17:25maturity curve of of the convertible
- 00:17:28Bond
- 00:17:29but forget about that for a moment just
- 00:17:31let's let's just talk about the payoff
- 00:17:33because I think it's it's really
- 00:17:34important for people to understand
- 00:17:37you've got the the bond floor right
- 00:17:39which is calculated based on the credit
- 00:17:42okay as I said the put will affect that
- 00:17:44so it pulls the bond floor higher
- 00:17:45because it's three-year paper rather
- 00:17:47than fiveyear paper right so you've got
- 00:17:49the bond floor and then you've got the
- 00:17:51payoff of the equity so as Equity goes
- 00:17:55up one the the price of the bond goes up
- 00:17:57one right so post the conversion price
- 00:18:00you've got this pay up sorry I'm in the
- 00:18:02wrong part of the camera angle so youve
- 00:18:04got the payoff going like this
- 00:18:05diagonally right so what happens though
- 00:18:10Pro like that's the payoff so that's
- 00:18:12what it looks like at maturity only at
- 00:18:15maturity I care about that conversion
- 00:18:17price prior to that you have what we
- 00:18:20call time value which creates a curve
- 00:18:23where the fair value pricing of the
- 00:18:25convertible bond is so it tails off and
- 00:18:27as you go lower and on the parity it
- 00:18:29will get almost to that Bond floor price
- 00:18:32right and then as you get close to the
- 00:18:35conversion price you have this huge
- 00:18:37amount of Premium between the the the
- 00:18:39value of the bond at par and the final
- 00:18:43sorry the trading price of the bond and
- 00:18:45that is the time value of that option
- 00:18:47and the time value of that option is so
- 00:18:49rich because it is so volatile his stock
- 00:18:53is so volatile so the market today is
- 00:18:56pricing his Bonds on like a 70 70
- 00:18:59implied volatility that is almost
- 00:19:02unheard of of a convertible bond for
- 00:19:05that type to uh term right because when
- 00:19:09you trade a one month or a three-month
- 00:19:11or a six-month option sure you're going
- 00:19:13to be fairly close to the actual realize
- 00:19:15today but you're always going to assume
- 00:19:18as that option gets longer that you will
- 00:19:19have with a very volatile stock you will
- 00:19:22you will have um a depletion of the
- 00:19:25volatility over time right that's just
- 00:19:28generally the way that the options will
- 00:19:30price as they get longer and longer
- 00:19:32dated so for a convertible bond to trade
- 00:19:35at 70 implied Vol is is absolutely
- 00:19:38insanity but it just shows you how
- 00:19:40volatile his stock is and how volatile
- 00:19:43everybody anticipates to be and I was
- 00:19:45just looking at the stock this morning
- 00:19:46it's down 5% bitcoin's down not even
- 00:19:512% and the stock's down 5% so five time
- 00:19:5516 roughly you're looking at that's sort
- 00:19:57of about a 90 Vol on the day I want to
- 00:20:00ask you super quick just to compare what
- 00:20:01you just explained to something people
- 00:20:03might be more familiar with
- 00:20:05which oh yeah there you go um if we can
- 00:20:07just compare that to something that
- 00:20:09people might be more familiar with like
- 00:20:10a black skulls model of like a call
- 00:20:12option or something like that so let me
- 00:20:14get see if I got this straight but what
- 00:20:15you're saying is that whereas with a
- 00:20:17call option you know the price of that
- 00:20:19option is is pretty reliant on the
- 00:20:21probability of it to expire in the money
- 00:20:23um so like where the Delta is relation
- 00:20:24to the strike price but you're saying
- 00:20:26that in the convertible Bond area
- 00:20:29it's it's it doesn't quite matter until
- 00:20:31we're at expiry is that what you're
- 00:20:32saying no sorry maybe I'm explaining it
- 00:20:35wrong of course the stock price is a is
- 00:20:37a factor when you're pricing right but
- 00:20:40what I'm saying is when I see these
- 00:20:42comments on Twitter everybody's like oh
- 00:20:44but you know the convertible Bond guys
- 00:20:46they're not going to sell any until we
- 00:20:47get to conversion price like no that
- 00:20:50that that's not what happens you you're
- 00:20:52already on an implied Delta IE and imp
- 00:20:55into the price already yeah exactly so
- 00:20:58it's already priced there and and
- 00:21:00because of that massive amount of
- 00:21:03volatility you just have this premium
- 00:21:04because it's fiveyear option um you know
- 00:21:08so it's very very long so you get this
- 00:21:10huge premium baked into the price itself
- 00:21:14got it okay okay that makes sense um
- 00:21:17cool so I want to talk a little bit
- 00:21:18about the people that are actually
- 00:21:20buying these convertible bonds um like
- 00:21:22you mentioned the last two insurances
- 00:21:24have been at 0% coupon so there's no
- 00:21:26coupon um so the big question is
- 00:21:29where is the yield coming from how are
- 00:21:31they getting it and how does it work
- 00:21:32that they actually get it okay so let
- 00:21:35let's go back to the basics of your
- 00:21:37average convertible Bond Arbitrage hedge
- 00:21:41fund right so guy gets a call from his
- 00:21:44investment banker in the morning uh
- 00:21:46micro strategies issue another
- 00:21:48convertible Bond right I'll stick it
- 00:21:50into my model I'll work it out okay
- 00:21:52that's the conversion price he's
- 00:21:53proposing that's the coupon he's
- 00:21:55proposing I factor my credit to be you
- 00:21:59know 600 basis points over rates so this
- 00:22:02is where I'm pricing the bond for etc
- 00:22:04etc so I'm putting all of these things
- 00:22:06into my model and I'm looking at it and
- 00:22:08the model's telling me well that's 60
- 00:22:11implied and I'm looking at all the other
- 00:22:13micro strategy converts and they're all
- 00:22:15trading at 70
- 00:22:16implied and I'm like call my banker back
- 00:22:19okay put me in for the full allocation
- 00:22:21right I want Max allocation on this Bond
- 00:22:24and this is what's happening across the
- 00:22:26street every time he's doing a convert
- 00:22:28because the minute he issues he's
- 00:22:30leaving enough on the table where the
- 00:22:31guys are like of course I want that
- 00:22:33right it's 60 Volve compared to a 70 Vol
- 00:22:36I think he issued at 60 volt last time
- 00:22:38it immediately traded up to 70 volt so
- 00:22:42that is a huge amount of profit almost
- 00:22:45day one all these convertible Bond guys
- 00:22:48so so their yield comes from the Vega
- 00:22:50increasing that's one thing that's
- 00:22:52what's pricing the bond cheap so to
- 00:22:54speak got it right so you get that kick
- 00:22:56in the Vega as you rightly out so the
- 00:22:59vager is is Big because it's a fiveyear
- 00:23:02piece of paper so it's it's fiveyear
- 00:23:04Vault so it's very impactful 10v points
- 00:23:07you know that could be seven eight% in
- 00:23:11the bonds right so it's it's a huge
- 00:23:13amount of value that's left on the table
- 00:23:15then and then if the guys who want to
- 00:23:19trade it and go well 70 Vol is still
- 00:23:21cheap for you know a stock that's moving
- 00:23:25around intraday often at 100 50 Vol
- 00:23:29right so I want to keep it and I want to
- 00:23:32trade the gamma right so the gamma is
- 00:23:35the trade sorry the change of Delta
- 00:23:38every
- 00:23:391% so as the stock goes up let's say 20%
- 00:23:44in a single day if gamma is
- 00:23:480.5% then your Delta is going to change
- 00:23:5110% right which means at that point
- 00:23:54where you're hitting 10% up you have 10%
- 00:23:58additional exposure to micro
- 00:24:01strategy right I was on the phone to a
- 00:24:03convertible Bond AR Trader after I did
- 00:24:06that podcast the other day just to sort
- 00:24:07of understand what he's going through
- 00:24:10with all of this and he's like Rich I've
- 00:24:12become a dgen crypto Trader I thought I
- 00:24:14thought I was a cbab guy like I'm just
- 00:24:17trading crypto like a dgen now he said
- 00:24:19it's insane he said I go to the bathroom
- 00:24:22if I haven't tightened up all my deltas
- 00:24:24and at least left some limits I can come
- 00:24:27back and have millions ions of dollars
- 00:24:28of exposure this stuff is whipping
- 00:24:31around like crazy I mean he's got the
- 00:24:33bit de bonds the the um Marathon bonds
- 00:24:37the the micro strategy bonds so he's
- 00:24:40yeah as I said and to your point as you
- 00:24:42say there you know they're not trying to
- 00:24:44take on directional exposure Delta
- 00:24:46exposure right it's a gamma thing for
- 00:24:47them so if if price shoots up they're
- 00:24:51shorting right that's where the that's
- 00:24:52where the big short interest comes from
- 00:24:53is these guys are trying to St delta
- 00:24:55neutral right exactly right exactly
- 00:24:58right haven't modeled it so I don't know
- 00:24:59what the gamar is but you know a big
- 00:25:01move like that you're going to get a lot
- 00:25:02of selling coming in from the CB guys
- 00:25:05that said all the other CBS that he's
- 00:25:08already issued are so far in the money
- 00:25:11there's no Delta change happening is
- 00:25:13they're already on like a 95 Delta right
- 00:25:16so it goes up another 10% maybe they go
- 00:25:19to a 96 Delta yeah but it's money call
- 00:25:23right it's just like yeah exactly
- 00:25:26exactly so those bonds he just issued
- 00:25:28those are the ones where there's this
- 00:25:31big significant move in gamma oh sorry
- 00:25:33in Delta each time right so you know
- 00:25:36those are the ones that are creating the
- 00:25:39the selling or the buying to the
- 00:25:41downside so this is you know if you if
- 00:25:43you think about what happens when you
- 00:25:45have a lot of options in a market you
- 00:25:48you generally see a decline in the
- 00:25:50volatility because the guys trading the
- 00:25:52gamma are essentially cushioning the
- 00:25:54moves right they're selling is it
- 00:25:57getting over over over strong and
- 00:25:59they're buying back is it's it's getting
- 00:26:01oversold I'm glad he brought up that
- 00:26:03idea of if volatility dampens because I
- 00:26:05want to ask you about the ability for
- 00:26:07for sailor to issue these at the um at
- 00:26:10the coupons that he is doing obviously
- 00:26:12you know when he started this there was
- 00:26:13a lot of yeah like senior converts that
- 00:26:16were you know priced at like
- 00:26:192.25 8.75% so above
- 00:26:22zero if VA if implied Vol started to
- 00:26:25come back lower um would he have less
- 00:26:29ability to issue at zero would that be
- 00:26:31dependent on it yeah I mean just to be
- 00:26:34clear it's it's realizable so it's
- 00:26:36what's actually happening in his stock
- 00:26:38implied Vol is is where the the the
- 00:26:41convertible bonds are pricing so they're
- 00:26:43pricing H the the implicit the thing
- 00:26:46that that is is hard to well the thing
- 00:26:48that needs to be calculated to find out
- 00:26:50the price is essentially the the
- 00:26:52volatility so it's like what volatility
- 00:26:54is the price of this CB implying right
- 00:26:58so it's the realized V if realized Vault
- 00:27:00drops as you say it is going to impede
- 00:27:02his ability to continue issuing zero
- 00:27:05zero coupon uh convertible bonds hey
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- 00:28:40they're shaping the finance of tomorrow
- 00:28:42and then my next question is just around
- 00:28:43like claim on the Bitcoin and and value
- 00:28:46Cel as well because you know as we
- 00:28:48discuss this it feels like and you know
- 00:28:50this is something the critics may bring
- 00:28:51up is that effectively Sailors using you
- 00:28:55know people that don't understand these
- 00:28:56Dynamics who just buy the Equity is
- 00:28:58basically exit liity for the convert
- 00:29:00Bond guys to be able to you know Harvest
- 00:29:02this gamma and this in this yield so my
- 00:29:04question is um you know if you're an if
- 00:29:07you're an equity holder how do how do
- 00:29:09you see that claim on on on the Bitcoin
- 00:29:12um but obviously with respect to you
- 00:29:15know these fix fixed income instruments
- 00:29:16they're not secured by the Bitcoin or
- 00:29:18anything like that so I'm just wondering
- 00:29:20like in a in a potential you know when
- 00:29:21you when you are in fixed income worlds
- 00:29:23you're always thinking about what does
- 00:29:24it things look like during a liquidation
- 00:29:25scenario so during a liquidation
- 00:29:27scenario
- 00:29:28where does the claim on the Bitcoin
- 00:29:30reside in basically is my question so I
- 00:29:33think none of the converts have any
- 00:29:35claim on the Bitcoin um so that is not a
- 00:29:40collateralization option he's literally
- 00:29:42just pricing these on the volatility of
- 00:29:44the underlying stock right but as his
- 00:29:47Bitcoin stock gets bigger and bigger and
- 00:29:49more important then obviously that
- 00:29:51provides some level of credit Clarity to
- 00:29:54the convertible Bond Traders because
- 00:29:56they're like okay you know they they
- 00:29:59might not have a claim on the Bitcoin
- 00:30:00but they do have a claim on micro
- 00:30:01strategy so in in the event that there
- 00:30:04is a uh a bankruptcy um then he would
- 00:30:09end up selling the Bitcoin but the only
- 00:30:11event that there would potentially be a
- 00:30:13bankruptcy is when he can't you know pay
- 00:30:16pay things anymore he can't pay the
- 00:30:17coupons or he can't pay off the debt
- 00:30:20that means that Bitcoin is reversed
- 00:30:22quite violently and we're in a bit of a
- 00:30:24a dire situation with Bitcoin so if you
- 00:30:28basically try and map out where does
- 00:30:30this go wrong it's basically Bitcoin
- 00:30:34having some level of failure and and
- 00:30:37dropping below 80% from where we are
- 00:30:40today so so long as you're a Bitcoin
- 00:30:42Maxi um I think you're fairly
- 00:30:44comfortable owning micro strategy stock
- 00:30:48and my view very strongly is that this
- 00:30:50mnav should be actually trading a lot
- 00:30:53higher than one and a half two but it's
- 00:30:55going to trade it's going to struggle to
- 00:30:58keep premium while he's smashing the ATM
- 00:31:01to the degree that he is I mean there
- 00:31:03there seems to be a level of urgency
- 00:31:05with sailor's behavior I'm intrigued as
- 00:31:06to what you think like I never imagined
- 00:31:10he would have done this amount of the
- 00:31:12ATM by this stage I mean it's absolutely
- 00:31:17crazy to to think of how much he's
- 00:31:19actually raised I haven't done the math
- 00:31:21since this morning based on his latest
- 00:31:23purchase but I think we've got to be
- 00:31:25getting close to 10 billion of the ATM
- 00:31:27already done yeah it feels like you know
- 00:31:30obviously the the the first level
- 00:31:32assumption is oh you know bitcoin's up
- 00:31:33and he you know his premium's up so you
- 00:31:35know he can issue buns but I wonder if
- 00:31:37it's more to do with just where implied
- 00:31:38ball is sitting and just the ability to
- 00:31:41uh to issue into that well the implied
- 00:31:43ball is affecting or the the realized
- 00:31:46Vol is affecting the convertible Bond
- 00:31:48pricing I I'm so I'm talking about the
- 00:31:51premium to na here oh okay yeah so I'm
- 00:31:56like I think that that should go higher
- 00:31:59um I think that you know S&P inclusion
- 00:32:01being on the horizon um NASDAQ Etc all
- 00:32:05this passive flow money that could come
- 00:32:08into micro strategy I think also the the
- 00:32:11fact that no one can catch him even if
- 00:32:14micro stoed at their board meeting you
- 00:32:18know next week or this I think it's this
- 00:32:20week isn't it is if they announce it
- 00:32:23that they're going to start buying
- 00:32:24Bitcoin they're never going to buy
- 00:32:25Bitcoin with their entire balance sheet
- 00:32:27and even if they did I don't think
- 00:32:29they'd ever managed to acquire as much
- 00:32:31Bitcoin as sailor has got so but the
- 00:32:35point I was making is he seems to be
- 00:32:36just urgently trying to get as much
- 00:32:39Bitcoin as he possibly can so you know I
- 00:32:43think this is what's interesting is
- 00:32:45obviously what's holding the the
- 00:32:46multiplier down um because he just keeps
- 00:32:49selling into it every week um but I'd
- 00:32:53I'd be intrigued as to your uh your view
- 00:32:56on that there was a lot of discussion
- 00:32:57about when the Bitcoin ETFs came out
- 00:32:59whether that would you know remove the
- 00:33:02premium to nav right because you know
- 00:33:03there's there's some theories that the
- 00:33:06reason for that premium is is due to the
- 00:33:09ability for you know some of these
- 00:33:11certain deaths to be able to buy like a
- 00:33:13you know a you know license security
- 00:33:16Equity um and it's a bit more
- 00:33:18complicated for obviously like spot
- 00:33:20Bitcoin and and even more so or lesso
- 00:33:22for the the Bitcoin ETF so what I find
- 00:33:25really interesting is that we have the
- 00:33:27Bitcoin spot ETFs now we even have the
- 00:33:30options on them as well and yet we
- 00:33:32haven't seen that premium come lower so
- 00:33:34obviously you know it's not it can't be
- 00:33:36that hey because I thought you know you
- 00:33:39know decent probability that when those
- 00:33:41options launch and especially the ETFs
- 00:33:43launch that we would see that come back
- 00:33:44down to zero but we haven't so I don't
- 00:33:46really know well this is exactly what I
- 00:33:48thought and I think I think sailor
- 00:33:51probably thought it as well to some
- 00:33:52degree yeah so maybe he was rushing and
- 00:33:54he's just like oh I got to get
- 00:33:55these out of
- 00:33:56here but I think what what has changed
- 00:33:59in sailor's mind is he's had a
- 00:34:00realization that and he talks about it
- 00:34:03now he talks about micr strategy as
- 00:34:05being a Bitcoin Refinery company and you
- 00:34:08know that he's taking the oil and
- 00:34:10refining it into usable instruments and
- 00:34:13I think this is is really interesting
- 00:34:15basically it's probably a bit of a
- 00:34:17stretch to call it Refinery but he's
- 00:34:19he's running a treasury management
- 00:34:21company he's leveraging the capital
- 00:34:22markets to get even more Bitcoin and if
- 00:34:25you take a step back and go okay if I
- 00:34:28could
- 00:34:29myself issue future equity in my
- 00:34:33performance right could I and use that
- 00:34:37to buy Bitcoin would I want to do that
- 00:34:39today rather than wait until I've earn
- 00:34:41that money yeah definitely if I could
- 00:34:45borrow money and buy more Bitcoin and
- 00:34:48borrow money on fiveyear debt right
- 00:34:51would I want to do that and buy Bitcoin
- 00:34:54yes I absolutely would certainly on an
- 00:34:56LTV of like 20 right which is I think
- 00:34:59what he's at today versus the market cap
- 00:35:03so when you put all that together you go
- 00:35:05hang on this is just an amazing way to
- 00:35:08add leverage into
- 00:35:11Bitcoin without doing it in a way that
- 00:35:13is gonna just cost you and bleed you
- 00:35:15like a a leveraged Bitcoin ETF would
- 00:35:19because they're just using options right
- 00:35:21so this is actually a very sophisticated
- 00:35:24way for you as an average investor to
- 00:35:27get leverage into Bitcoin and and to
- 00:35:31keep growing your Bitcoin stack and I
- 00:35:33think and fast forwarding what you can
- 00:35:35actually get as your Bitcoin stack and
- 00:35:38that's the point as well is like you
- 00:35:40know that by adding micro strategy
- 00:35:42you're going to increase the amount of
- 00:35:44Bitcoin per share every year so that's
- 00:35:48way better than an ETF so it definitely
- 00:35:52deserves to trade on a premium and then
- 00:35:54you know the other thing that we've sort
- 00:35:56of I've been trying to to debate with
- 00:35:58with Equity people is well okay sure
- 00:36:01it's not earnings that he's producing
- 00:36:03but it is increasing the asset base
- 00:36:07right which is what earnings essentially
- 00:36:10end up doing to a company so if you just
- 00:36:15kind of say okay forget about the fact
- 00:36:16that it's not technically
- 00:36:18earnings and this is money hitting the
- 00:36:21asset base why is this not the same
- 00:36:23thing and therefore why should I not
- 00:36:25apply a multiple to earnings and
- 00:36:29therefore you can see this a lot lot
- 00:36:31higher right you know if he's earned $40
- 00:36:35million of new assets this year in terms
- 00:36:40of that uh that accretive
- 00:36:43dilution than you know 40 million on a
- 00:36:46multiplier of of or sorry price earnings
- 00:36:49of 40 billion sorry on a price earnings
- 00:36:52of of 20 well then that's an $800
- 00:36:54billion company yeah those are the
- 00:36:56underlying assumptions between you know
- 00:36:58some of these metrics that they've come
- 00:36:59out like with Bitcoin yield and Bitcoin
- 00:37:01per share right like what are those
- 00:37:02about because I feel like you know it's
- 00:37:04obviously not a yield bearing instrument
- 00:37:06so what do they mean by that when they
- 00:37:07say that was that's exactly it that's
- 00:37:09the increase in the in the Bitcoin per
- 00:37:11share so so that's that's him saying you
- 00:37:15hold your Bitcoin you hold your micro
- 00:37:17strategy share one share every year
- 00:37:20we're increasing that this year we've
- 00:37:22increased it by 60% or whatever the
- 00:37:24Bitcoin yield is that's hugely accre to
- 00:37:28the shareholder again right so then if
- 00:37:30you take that 60 and you go okay that's
- 00:37:32earnings right then you can forward
- 00:37:35extrapolate what I was saying before
- 00:37:37rather than you know people go yeah but
- 00:37:39it's not earnings you're like okay okay
- 00:37:41fine but where do earnings end up
- 00:37:44earnings end up on the balance sheet as
- 00:37:45new assets so this is essentially a way
- 00:37:48to consider that this could be earnings
- 00:37:51and therefore back to my point if you if
- 00:37:54he goes and does another series of ATMs
- 00:37:57next year and and Carries On at the rate
- 00:38:00he's going I mean he's going to be
- 00:38:01adding a 100 billion of new Bitcoin in a
- 00:38:04single year I mean that is turning that
- 00:38:08company even on a 10 PE into a trillion
- 00:38:11dollar
- 00:38:12company so where do you put the
- 00:38:14multiplier right yeah you got to rethink
- 00:38:16them yeah you you can't just go okay
- 00:38:19this is just a slightly better than the
- 00:38:22ETF no no this is a very different ball
- 00:38:25game now we're talking about have
- 00:38:27modeled much in terms of liquidation
- 00:38:30risk quote unquote other than saying you
- 00:38:32know if Bitcoin goes down 80% there
- 00:38:34could be some issues you know sailor has
- 00:38:36already ridden a pretty significant draw
- 00:38:38down though it wasn't quite as levered
- 00:38:39at the time obviously of course but they
- 00:38:41have been through that at least once um
- 00:38:43you know just looking at the current
- 00:38:45like annual interest expenses you know
- 00:38:47correct me if I'm wrong but I have like
- 00:38:4834.6 million roughly a year have you
- 00:38:51modeled out how you think or or how they
- 00:38:54might be thinking about you know that
- 00:38:55interest coverage um in terms terms of
- 00:38:57potential liquidation risk or something
- 00:38:59or what could happen and how much of the
- 00:39:01traditional software business revenues
- 00:39:03cover that interest expense I haven't
- 00:39:05modeled it or spent time on it in any
- 00:39:07particular detail but what I do know is
- 00:39:10that last time I looked at the numbers
- 00:39:12they the revenues from the software
- 00:39:14business were just about covering all of
- 00:39:17the interest rate expenses and obviously
- 00:39:19the more he can issue at zero coup on
- 00:39:21and he will be those bonds that he's got
- 00:39:24at 2.25 you said and 0.875
- 00:39:28yeah he's going to be calling them as
- 00:39:29soon as he possibly can he's going to
- 00:39:31call all of them but that that's
- 00:39:33probably something also to mention for
- 00:39:35people to understand is that there is
- 00:39:37this soft cool feature in all of these
- 00:39:40bonds which means after a certain period
- 00:39:42of time if the if the price of the stock
- 00:39:46is a certain amount above the strike
- 00:39:49price he can go to all the bond holders
- 00:39:52and do what is called a soft call so
- 00:39:55it's it's basically his call to say I
- 00:39:58want you to either convert your bonds or
- 00:40:02I'm buying those bonds back from you at
- 00:40:04par now par obviously he's got a a 30%
- 00:40:09premium to par they're trading at 30%
- 00:40:11premium to par because they're 30% of
- 00:40:12the money at least so what what they
- 00:40:15tend to do is price in a soft call after
- 00:40:18a period of time where you will have had
- 00:40:20that time Decay decrease a certain
- 00:40:22amount and they tend to price it at a at
- 00:40:24a level where the options guys have at
- 00:40:26least managed to make uh make their
- 00:40:29money right so after a certain amount of
- 00:40:33time they become callable for him which
- 00:40:35means he can say okay I'm calling those
- 00:40:37bonds if you don't convert I get to buy
- 00:40:39them back at par where they par is
- 00:40:42already at 130 so par means 100 so he'd
- 00:40:46be buying them back off them at at a
- 00:40:48discount of 30 points so of course they
- 00:40:50convert they convert straight away right
- 00:40:53which means that debt is suddenly
- 00:40:55removed from his balance sheet you get
- 00:40:57new share
- 00:40:58issuances those shares collapse into the
- 00:41:01Delta so there's no impact on the on the
- 00:41:04share price because it's new Shares are
- 00:41:06issued there's that short that short is
- 00:41:08collapsed by the convert Bond Bond
- 00:41:11holders into that short right and that's
- 00:41:15really interesting so the reason the
- 00:41:17upside like if you just think about a
- 00:41:19normal payoff di diagram the reason the
- 00:41:22upside is s un limit is because it gets
- 00:41:24called but you know just turns into
- 00:41:26Equity so you still have that UPS versus
- 00:41:27like AA a traditional you know callable
- 00:41:30Bond when that gets called like the
- 00:41:32upside is capped right because you don't
- 00:41:34actually get anything out of that right
- 00:41:36you're talking about a cable straight
- 00:41:38Bond yeah with no yeah yeah yeah yeah I
- 00:41:42mean of of course if it doesn't have a a
- 00:41:44cool option in it then there's there's
- 00:41:46no ability to to convert it into the
- 00:41:49stock but that's the thing they convert
- 00:41:50it into the stock if they want they can
- 00:41:52keep running it very unlikely by the way
- 00:41:54that a convertible Bond AR guy would
- 00:41:57keep running it he just converts
- 00:41:59straight into the stock Nets out his
- 00:42:00position he's out right ready for the
- 00:42:03next one please Michael let's go which
- 00:42:06is exactly what will happen so he has
- 00:42:09this this captive
- 00:42:11Market but I think to your earlier the
- 00:42:14earlier part of the question what can go
- 00:42:15wrong I think if we had an 80% draw down
- 00:42:19in Bitcoin obviously then get to a point
- 00:42:22where the amount the value of the
- 00:42:24Bitcoin is the same value of the
- 00:42:27outstanding debt I think you then run
- 00:42:29the risk that we trade at a discount to
- 00:42:31a
- 00:42:32Navy um and so that obviously um gets
- 00:42:37quite hairy uh for an investor so it's
- 00:42:40something that people need to pay
- 00:42:41attention to like this is leverage
- 00:42:44upside it's also leverage downside
- 00:42:46obviously you know there's a lot of
- 00:42:48speculation right now on this idea of
- 00:42:50being included in either like the NASDAQ
- 00:42:52or or the S&P how do you view the
- 00:42:54probabilities of that occurring and how
- 00:42:55much do you think of that as like big
- 00:42:57into where the price has gone recently
- 00:42:58and also potentially that premium I I
- 00:43:01would just like to say that I'm probably
- 00:43:02not qualified to to make a a view on
- 00:43:05this I don't know much about index
- 00:43:07inclusion rules in the United States uh
- 00:43:10but what I would say is that from my
- 00:43:12understanding um Tesla uh was um
- 00:43:16obviously not included for some time and
- 00:43:19I think that a part of that was it had
- 00:43:22run up very quickly and people thought
- 00:43:25or the people making the vote on the
- 00:43:26index
- 00:43:27uh team had some view that you know
- 00:43:30perhaps it could draw back down again
- 00:43:32and then you know they're they're
- 00:43:34rotating straight back out again so I
- 00:43:36think what what the the team that will
- 00:43:40make this decision will be deciding will
- 00:43:43be a number of inputs and it won't
- 00:43:45necessarily be a slam dunk for sailor
- 00:43:47because he's got there so quickly and
- 00:43:50they probably want to see a few rounds
- 00:43:53of um of potential index inclusions and
- 00:43:56him always being on the ticket uh for
- 00:44:00for him to make it that's that's that's
- 00:44:03what I hear from people way smarter than
- 00:44:05me about index inclusion okay so
- 00:44:06circling back on everything that we've
- 00:44:08talked about thus far you started the
- 00:44:09show by saying that micro strategy is
- 00:44:11one of the most misunderstood Financial
- 00:44:14assets and instruments around so after
- 00:44:16everything we talked about how would you
- 00:44:18summarize is like the the biggest
- 00:44:19misconception of everything we've talked
- 00:44:21about thus far I think the earliest one
- 00:44:24is is basically an ETF and I still see
- 00:44:26people make that comment so like that's
- 00:44:29a really bad misconception as we've
- 00:44:32we've discussed because he's always
- 00:44:34aiming to add to bitcoin per share so if
- 00:44:37you're an ETF if you're a holder of an
- 00:44:39ETF you're essentially just bleeding
- 00:44:41because you're you're paying the fee out
- 00:44:42of your shareholding every year um you
- 00:44:46know there's a there's an ETF in in SW
- 00:44:50in Sweden listed in Sweden it charges
- 00:44:52you a two and a half% fee annually on
- 00:44:55the Bitcoin it holds so so you're just
- 00:44:58bleeding 2.5% out of your shareholding
- 00:45:01the value of your shareholding every
- 00:45:03year with mic strategy is the opposite
- 00:45:06so you're getting more Bitcoin per share
- 00:45:08he's charging you no fee um so it's
- 00:45:11secretive as as we've discussed many
- 00:45:13times so I think that's the number one
- 00:45:16misconception and I hear it all the time
- 00:45:17why wouldn't you just buy
- 00:45:19ibit like it's it's so different uh from
- 00:45:23ibit you know he is literally leveraging
- 00:45:27violently leveraging the capital markets
- 00:45:29to get as much Bitcoin as he possibly
- 00:45:31can think back to that example of you as
- 00:45:34an individual saying how can I bring
- 00:45:36forward my future earnings on some sort
- 00:45:39of equity of Felix right I would love to
- 00:45:42be able to forward sell that and buy
- 00:45:44Bitcoin with that right but you can't
- 00:45:47but Micro strategy can by selling their
- 00:45:49stock right same with the with the debt
- 00:45:52I can borrow money in the form of either
- 00:45:54convertible or straight debt right no
- 00:45:57one no one as an individual can do that
- 00:46:01unless they're worth billions most
- 00:46:03likely and you know their bank loves
- 00:46:05them and will always lend them money um
- 00:46:07but I it's certainly not true of me and
- 00:46:09I'm sure it's not true of the majority
- 00:46:11of people um that you can't just go to
- 00:46:13your bank and go can you just let me 50
- 00:46:15million bucks to to buy some Bitcoin um
- 00:46:18it's not going to happen so I think
- 00:46:21there's that aspect of basically using
- 00:46:24sailor as your way of increasing your
- 00:46:27Bitcoin Holdings now of course if
- 00:46:29Bitcoin goes lower there is a chance
- 00:46:32that you get all that detraction and so
- 00:46:34you end up with less Bitcoin than you
- 00:46:36could have had than if you spent you
- 00:46:38know 10 grand on bitcoin versus 10 grand
- 00:46:41on micr strategy stock right so there is
- 00:46:45of course this this thing to understand
- 00:46:47that and this is where of course all the
- 00:46:50the the people that are being negative
- 00:46:51about his stock pointing to for them
- 00:46:53they see absolutely zero value in that
- 00:46:55premium so and the minute you say well
- 00:46:59you know what about earnings and why
- 00:47:02can't we attribute some level of price
- 00:47:03earnings to this then they oh of course
- 00:47:05it's not earnings you an idiot it's like
- 00:47:07well it's not earnings I get that but
- 00:47:09where do earnings end up as I said
- 00:47:11previously it's like they end up on your
- 00:47:13balance sheet they end up as Assets in
- 00:47:14the company or potentially as a dividend
- 00:47:16paid so that's exactly what he's doing
- 00:47:19so why could we not just sort of think
- 00:47:22about it in a different way this is
- 00:47:23something that no one has ever seen
- 00:47:25before so you have to think about it in
- 00:47:27slightly different ways and try to
- 00:47:29understand what is really happening here
- 00:47:31and it is a creating continuous value to
- 00:47:34the balance sheet to the asset base
- 00:47:37therefore in a way it's a type of
- 00:47:39earnings for the company and then we
- 00:47:42should perhaps be thinking about this on
- 00:47:43a price earnings basis and maybe this is
- 00:47:46why sailor is doing this as violently as
- 00:47:49he can he wants to demonstrate to people
- 00:47:52the value that he can add in a single
- 00:47:55year right and if you're you're not
- 00:47:57thinking about this as earnings then
- 00:47:58you're just completely mispricing the
- 00:48:00stock because he's completely changed
- 00:48:02the basis of the value of the company in
- 00:48:04a single year and that's essentially
- 00:48:08what an amazing earnings year would do
- 00:48:11so maybe he's acting in this very
- 00:48:14violent way in order to try and
- 00:48:16establish that base of saying you need
- 00:48:19to give me a PE that's such a great
- 00:48:21point because you know to your to your
- 00:48:22point like the only reason it doesn't
- 00:48:23show up in an income statement is just
- 00:48:25because of how we decided to ruct income
- 00:48:27statements right but to your point where
- 00:48:29does that income go it goes on to
- 00:48:31retained earnings or as a dividend so
- 00:48:32it's just instead of just showing up in
- 00:48:34an income statement which is just
- 00:48:35arbitrarily what we decided are things
- 00:48:37that show up there it just goes on the
- 00:48:39balance sheet that's really interesting
- 00:48:42I'm just thinking out loud with you now
- 00:48:43and just sort of extrapolating that I
- 00:48:45think that could potentially be an
- 00:48:47explanation of why sailor is moving as
- 00:48:50aggressively he is so in 2025 people are
- 00:48:53like oh my God this guy has just added
- 00:48:57so much value to this
- 00:48:59company right we're thinking about this
- 00:49:02wrong and suddenly it's just this wakeup
- 00:49:05moment for the whole market and then the
- 00:49:07mnav goes through the roof yeah
- 00:49:10something I meant to ask you but didn't
- 00:49:12get a chance to earlier was just around
- 00:49:13the the levered micro strategy ETFs and
- 00:49:15your thoughts on those because you know
- 00:49:17classic Financial world you take a good
- 00:49:19thing and then you you start to depress
- 00:49:22it a little bit and uh I don't know if
- 00:49:24you're ever like a vault Trader but I
- 00:49:25was messing around there in the days of
- 00:49:27like when XIV blew up and it just kind
- 00:49:28of reminds me of these things so curious
- 00:49:30your thoughts on on the impact of those
- 00:49:32lever ETFs well I was a derivative
- 00:49:34Trader and I was a convert Trader which
- 00:49:37you know very similar types of things
- 00:49:39and for me when I look at those products
- 00:49:42I'm like you
- 00:49:44unfortunately you know it having traded
- 00:49:46options if you're not arbing if you're
- 00:49:49not gamma trading those options with the
- 00:49:52richness of the price of the
- 00:49:54implied you are believe leading to death
- 00:49:58right and we we all know that short
- 00:50:00dated options unless you get the
- 00:50:03direction right first time you are going
- 00:50:06to just bleed to death so I I really
- 00:50:10don't trade the options and I would not
- 00:50:12touch those products because those
- 00:50:14products are built through basically
- 00:50:17going long very high gearing options
- 00:50:20which are short dat you know options out
- 00:50:23of the money they'll be building a curve
- 00:50:25so that they can participate and then
- 00:50:27rolling out the strikes and and doing
- 00:50:30all of that but yeah for me that unless
- 00:50:33you want to trade it for maybe two or
- 00:50:35three days and you're like I'm very sure
- 00:50:38that bitcoin's gonna have an absolute
- 00:50:40flyer and micro strategy is going to do
- 00:50:422x that and then you know mstu or
- 00:50:45whichever one is the two or 3x ends up
- 00:50:47doing you know two or 3x times that then
- 00:50:50sure you know if you have a particular
- 00:50:53view over a three-day period yes but but
- 00:50:56even holding over a weekend you're
- 00:50:58bleeding to death right Monday morning
- 00:51:00you come in there's no free lunch yeah I
- 00:51:03I I mean I for my personal I feel that
- 00:51:08micro strategy is is more than enough uh
- 00:51:13volatility yeah yeah agreed and if you
- 00:51:15want more vol I don't know like like you
- 00:51:16said I'd we prefer to just do my own
- 00:51:18leverage in options than try to just
- 00:51:20bleed out on a lever DTF and I know
- 00:51:23that's my perspective for all the lever
- 00:51:24dtfs you know you see you compare like
- 00:51:26the 3x cues or something like that and
- 00:51:28you know the tracking error is just a
- 00:51:30mess yeah it's because it's because of
- 00:51:33the cost of of transacting these options
- 00:51:35but also as you say it's that bleed
- 00:51:37which is just horrific to deal with if
- 00:51:39you get your timing wrong like that's
- 00:51:41the thing with with with options if
- 00:51:44you're not camera hedging them you've
- 00:51:46got to get your timing absolutely spot
- 00:51:48on certainly for the short dated any
- 00:51:50closing thoughts there overall on the
- 00:51:52whole micro strategy world and and your
- 00:51:54thoughts on where this goes for the next
- 00:51:5612 months before we wrap up look I think
- 00:51:58it's an absolutely fascinating stock I
- 00:52:00think it is changing the whole Paradigm
- 00:52:02of markets I think that we will see more
- 00:52:05and more companies announce the Bitcoin
- 00:52:08strategy because of the success he's
- 00:52:10happening he's having I'm paying close
- 00:52:13attention to other early movers in
- 00:52:16specific markets I think meta planet is
- 00:52:19is someone to watch obviously uh
- 00:52:22employing a very similar strategy to
- 00:52:25micro strategy I mean I mean what
- 00:52:26they've taken it from 20 million to 500
- 00:52:29million and now you know obviously if
- 00:52:33they get to a billion then they're start
- 00:52:34going to start to attract much larger
- 00:52:36investors and then they can also have
- 00:52:39their own flywheel I mean they're
- 00:52:41trading I think about a five times
- 00:52:44multiple um but I think that that is
- 00:52:46demonstrative of of the growth that they
- 00:52:49can potentially have versus uh micro
- 00:52:51strategy in terms of just accreting much
- 00:52:54faster that lower rate which we've
- 00:52:56already seen um so yeah look I I think
- 00:53:00this is a really fascinating space to be
- 00:53:03watching I I'm not giving anyone any
- 00:53:05investment advice of course um but I do
- 00:53:08think that that premium to nav uh should
- 00:53:11expand as people understand more and
- 00:53:13more that this is a way to be thinking
- 00:53:16of earnings coming into the balance
- 00:53:18sheet rather than okay it's not
- 00:53:20technically earnings so I'm not going to
- 00:53:22count it as earnings as you said um I
- 00:53:25think that that is potentially a
- 00:53:28fascinating way to be thinking about
- 00:53:30this and it puts the stock a lot higher
- 00:53:32but of course there's downside if
- 00:53:34Bitcoin starts crashing this Stock's
- 00:53:37going to crash a lot harder you will see
- 00:53:39that uh premium Tav probably drop to one
- 00:53:42as things get really hairy and uh and
- 00:53:45maybe even a discount well said look
- 00:53:48Richard it was great to finally get you
- 00:53:49on the show um where can folks go if
- 00:53:51they want to hear more about your your
- 00:53:52thoughts and and amings like any good
- 00:53:55Finance Pro I'm on LinkedIn um and so
- 00:53:58LinkedIn under my own name I think
- 00:54:00there's only one Richard byworth based
- 00:54:03in Switzerland certainly um and then on
- 00:54:06Twitter I'm Richard byworth um so all
- 00:54:10one word so easy to find awesome all
- 00:54:14right well thanks for joining us that
- 00:54:15was really fascinating for me thanks one
- 00:54:17more thing I should say Felix is I I
- 00:54:19have my own podcast slightly different
- 00:54:22it's not designed to be a Bitcoin
- 00:54:23podcast it's designed to be a podcast
- 00:54:25looking at various different issues with
- 00:54:27the world that's called sees the future
- 00:54:30syz that's on YouTube Spotify Apple Etc
- 00:54:34so I'd love to have people come join me
- 00:54:36there as well yeah love it all right
- 00:54:39thanks Richard thanks Felix
- 00:54:44[Music]
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