Why she left architecture.

00:52:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OamupgVE6Gk

Summary

TLDRDani, an architect based in Vancouver, interviews Evelyn, who has undergone several career transitions away from traditional architectural roles. Evelyn started in architecture but moved into strategic roles and currently works as a senior experience designer at Slack. They discuss Evelyn's journey, her educational pursuits (MBA and MPA), and her strategic roles, including her work with non-profits and architectural consulting firm MK Think. Evelyn provides advice for young architects on career flexibility and networking. The conversation touches on industry shifts, the importance of diversifying services in architecture, and the evolving role of architectural education and practice.

Takeaways

  • 👩‍💼 Evelyn's diverse career journey from architecture to strategic roles.
  • 🎓 Importance of education, including an MBA and MPA, for career growth.
  • 📈 Need for architecture firms to expand and diversify their services.
  • 🎙 Evelyn founded Practice of Architecture to help professionals adapt.
  • 🏢 Strategic thinking can lead to role expansion beyond traditional architecture.
  • 📝 Young architects advised to explore diverse career paths and network.
  • 🤝 Networking and informational interviews are vital for career shifts.
  • 🧠 Architects should develop strategic skills to stay relevant.
  • 📚 Traditional architectural education might need to adapt to industry shifts.
  • 🗣 Professionals encouraged to use their voice and seek firms that value their input.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Dani, an architect, introduces Evelyn, a guest with numerous career transitions in architecture, non-profits, and various leadership roles including at Slack and as a podcast founder.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Evelyn shares her career journey from childhood aspirations in architecture, realizing disconnection with building users, to working with non-profits and seeking more impact.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Her work with non-profits highlighted a common misperception about the role of architects, prompting her to pursue an MBA and MPA for better value articulation.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    After her MBA, she explored various consulting roles, leading her to strategic positions and eventually a senior designer role at Slack, while still valuing her architectural roots.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Discussing her MBA, Evelyn reflects on the lack of direction during her transition from architecture, taking a break to discover where her passions truly lay.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Her educational path was a mix of serendipity and intention, pursuing theoretical understanding in architecture, contributing to her broader career shifts.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Evelyn sees education as a critical foundation for problem-solving in architecture, advocating for more than just technical training.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    In Practice of Architecture, she explores alternative practices, demonstrating that even small firms can benefit from strategic, non-traditional roles in architecture.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    She gives advice to architecture students about leveraging networking and informational interviewing to explore varied career paths.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:52:54

    Evelyn concludes by highlighting the changing studio culture, the importance of voice in the architecture firm, and encouraging firms to adapt to new ideas.

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Mind Map

Video Q&A

  • Who is interviewed in the video?

    Evelyn, who has transitioned from being an architect to various strategic roles.

  • What is the main topic of the interview?

    The interview discusses career transitions, especially in architecture, and advice for young architects.

  • What career transitions has Evelyn made?

    She has transitioned from architecture to working with non-profits, obtaining an MBA and MPA, working in commercial real estate, and becoming a senior experience designer at Slack.

  • What is Practice of Architecture?

    It is an organization founded by Evelyn, aiming to help architects and practices find new growth ideas in a changing world.

  • What strategic role did Evelyn play at MK Think?

    She was a leader in the strategic studio, focusing on expanding the value architecture firms could offer beyond traditional roles.

  • What advice does Evelyn provide for young architects?

    She suggests exploring various interests and networking, even cold emailing professionals to learn about career paths.

  • How does Evelyn suggest architecture practices can evolve?

    By offering additional services beyond traditional architecture, being more involved in initial project stages, and adapting to new business models.

  • What educational background does Evelyn have?

    She completed an MBA and an MPA to bolster her strategic and public administration skills.

  • What was Evelyn's role at Slack?

    She works as a senior experience designer, utilizing her strategic skills.

  • Is the architectural industry's business model discussed?

    Yes, Evelyn describes it as potentially failing and suggests practices need to become more flexible and strategic.

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Subtitles
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  • 00:00:00
    hi everyone thank you so much for
  • 00:00:02
    joining me today
  • 00:00:04
    my name is dani and i'm an architect
  • 00:00:05
    based in vancouver bc
  • 00:00:08
    have you ever felt stuck in your career
  • 00:00:11
    and
  • 00:00:11
    imagined yourself transitioning into a
  • 00:00:14
    completely
  • 00:00:15
    new path well my guest today
  • 00:00:18
    has done that several times
  • 00:00:22
    evelyn started her career in
  • 00:00:24
    architecture and
  • 00:00:25
    after becoming a licensed architect
  • 00:00:28
    transitioned
  • 00:00:28
    to working for an organization that
  • 00:00:30
    connects architects with non-profits
  • 00:00:33
    then she decided to go and get her mba
  • 00:00:36
    and her mpa
  • 00:00:38
    she worked as a strategic lead she
  • 00:00:41
    worked as a managing director for a
  • 00:00:43
    commercial real estate firm
  • 00:00:45
    and she now works as a senior experience
  • 00:00:48
    designer at slack
  • 00:00:50
    she is also the founder of practice of
  • 00:00:53
    architecture
  • 00:00:54
    and now their new podcast practice
  • 00:00:56
    disrupted
  • 00:00:58
    where they help people and practices
  • 00:00:59
    find new ideas for growth
  • 00:01:02
    in a world that is constantly changing
  • 00:01:06
    she's also the first female treasurer of
  • 00:01:08
    the aia nationals board
  • 00:01:10
    we are living in incredibly uncertain
  • 00:01:13
    times
  • 00:01:14
    but also very exciting times entire
  • 00:01:17
    industries are changing
  • 00:01:19
    traditional roles are being challenged
  • 00:01:22
    and job security is definitely
  • 00:01:24
    not guaranteed and job satisfaction is
  • 00:01:28
    more
  • 00:01:28
    nebulous than ever so in this interview
  • 00:01:32
    evelyn and i talk about her various
  • 00:01:35
    career transitions
  • 00:01:37
    some practical tips for young architects
  • 00:01:40
    and we also talk about the industry
  • 00:01:42
    and the need for architecture firms to
  • 00:01:45
    break out of the traditional method of
  • 00:01:47
    practice so that they can be
  • 00:01:49
    more relevant more involved and
  • 00:01:52
    more profitable it was very interesting
  • 00:01:57
    for me to hear her point of view
  • 00:01:59
    especially because i have been
  • 00:02:01
    questioning the direction of the
  • 00:02:02
    industry myself
  • 00:02:05
    as well as my own career path so
  • 00:02:08
    i hope you find it interesting so here
  • 00:02:11
    it is
  • 00:02:14
    could you just talk about your
  • 00:02:18
    career like all your career pivots
  • 00:02:21
    a little bit and
  • 00:02:22
    [Laughter]
  • 00:02:24
    and how long do you how long do you have
  • 00:02:28
    um well i i don't know i mean i think if
  • 00:02:31
    if anything i would hope that people
  • 00:02:34
    know that
  • 00:02:35
    a career is really a journey i was
  • 00:02:37
    always one of those individuals that
  • 00:02:39
    wanted to
  • 00:02:40
    be an architect i don't know ever since
  • 00:02:42
    i was in the fourth grade i was one of
  • 00:02:43
    those silly architects that knew like at
  • 00:02:45
    a super young age like
  • 00:02:46
    i want to be an architect without
  • 00:02:49
    knowing what an architect actually did
  • 00:02:51
    until i became an architect and i
  • 00:02:53
    realized
  • 00:02:54
    i was so disconnected from the end users
  • 00:02:57
    of our buildings
  • 00:02:59
    even though i was designing schools and
  • 00:03:01
    community centers
  • 00:03:03
    my time was spent more with this the
  • 00:03:06
    city
  • 00:03:06
    um and county staff we were working with
  • 00:03:09
    or
  • 00:03:10
    the school board than you know the
  • 00:03:13
    actual students
  • 00:03:14
    and the actual teachers and the people
  • 00:03:16
    in the community and
  • 00:03:19
    and that's where i wanted to spend my
  • 00:03:20
    time hearing those voices
  • 00:03:23
    because i felt that that was where i
  • 00:03:24
    could make the biggest impact so i
  • 00:03:26
    ultimately left architecture to go work
  • 00:03:29
    for a non-profit organization up here in
  • 00:03:31
    the bay area
  • 00:03:32
    called public architecture and manage a
  • 00:03:34
    program
  • 00:03:36
    which has it's now called the oneplus
  • 00:03:38
    program
  • 00:03:39
    but essentially was established pre-the
  • 00:03:42
    great recession
  • 00:03:44
    when architects were at our you know we
  • 00:03:46
    were doing really
  • 00:03:47
    well the economy is in a highest wing
  • 00:03:50
    and we're asking architects to give
  • 00:03:52
    one percent of their billable hours
  • 00:03:54
    towards the public good pro bono
  • 00:03:56
    which if you think about it collectively
  • 00:03:58
    would mean that it would be the biggest
  • 00:04:00
    pro bono design firm globally
  • 00:04:04
    uh so so the promise was super
  • 00:04:07
    interesting
  • 00:04:08
    but a lot of the architects were having
  • 00:04:10
    problems finding nonprofit organizations
  • 00:04:12
    to actually
  • 00:04:14
    serve and create projects with so
  • 00:04:17
    i was the first person to come on and
  • 00:04:20
    look at how do we create those
  • 00:04:22
    partnerships with nonprofit
  • 00:04:23
    organizations
  • 00:04:24
    and then i realized even myself as an
  • 00:04:27
    architect
  • 00:04:28
    um all other than unlicensed working
  • 00:04:30
    towards licensure
  • 00:04:31
    i was really ill-equipped
  • 00:04:34
    uh to talk about the value proposition
  • 00:04:37
    and i think
  • 00:04:38
    architects always talk about we need to
  • 00:04:40
    be much
  • 00:04:41
    better about how we talk about our value
  • 00:04:45
    and deliver because we're always
  • 00:04:46
    under pricing our services and people
  • 00:04:48
    don't understand our value
  • 00:04:49
    well i i felt that i wasn't
  • 00:04:53
    fully able to articulate that to the
  • 00:04:55
    nonprofit organizations
  • 00:04:56
    and it was clear that the nonprofit
  • 00:04:58
    organizations and the majority of the
  • 00:05:00
    public only felt
  • 00:05:02
    that you know architects are only needed
  • 00:05:05
    if you
  • 00:05:06
    have a new ground up building right not
  • 00:05:09
    necessarily
  • 00:05:10
    like architects can even rearrange your
  • 00:05:12
    space
  • 00:05:13
    to help get better operations and
  • 00:05:16
    processes
  • 00:05:17
    going or that by doing certain things to
  • 00:05:21
    your existing space
  • 00:05:22
    you actually could raise the potential
  • 00:05:25
    um
  • 00:05:26
    of donors and the amount that donors are
  • 00:05:29
    willing to give
  • 00:05:30
    just purely because you come off as more
  • 00:05:32
    professional and organized
  • 00:05:34
    in the way you present yourself so
  • 00:05:37
    i took that um notion and i went back to
  • 00:05:40
    school to get my mba
  • 00:05:42
    i ended up tagging on an mpa which is
  • 00:05:45
    public administration
  • 00:05:48
    because ultimately um the mba is much
  • 00:05:52
    more qualitative and i felt more
  • 00:05:54
    quantitative
  • 00:05:55
    and i felt that mpa is much more
  • 00:05:57
    qualitative and it was about
  • 00:05:59
    research methodology methodologies
  • 00:06:02
    used at the community level to gather
  • 00:06:04
    information and then use that data
  • 00:06:06
    to make decisions um at the civic level
  • 00:06:09
    and i figured that i could use that
  • 00:06:12
    to play out at a lot of different
  • 00:06:14
    various consulting posts
  • 00:06:17
    i landed at a consulting group called mk
  • 00:06:19
    think actually it's an architecture and
  • 00:06:20
    design group called mk think that had
  • 00:06:23
    a strategic studio as one of its core
  • 00:06:25
    competencies
  • 00:06:26
    and i led that for multiple years i
  • 00:06:29
    went to work with a firm a friend
  • 00:06:32
    actually
  • 00:06:33
    on the consultant side of workplace
  • 00:06:37
    experience consulting at several
  • 00:06:40
    different brokerages
  • 00:06:41
    with the same team our team moved
  • 00:06:43
    between brokerages
  • 00:06:44
    and then i ended up taking that
  • 00:06:47
    workplace experience and transitioning
  • 00:06:50
    it to slack
  • 00:06:51
    internally on the client side so that's
  • 00:06:54
    where i am now
  • 00:06:57
    right so a lot of pivots so
  • 00:07:02
    just to backtrack a little bit
  • 00:07:05
    when you went to do your mba because i
  • 00:07:08
    think there are quite a few
  • 00:07:10
    architects who want to pivot their
  • 00:07:12
    careers they go in and do their mba
  • 00:07:16
    did you have a clear idea of what you
  • 00:07:19
    what kind of job you wanted to do after
  • 00:07:22
    getting the mba
  • 00:07:23
    no i i mean that was that was an unusual
  • 00:07:25
    journey for me
  • 00:07:26
    too it sounds like i had an idea i
  • 00:07:29
    really didn't
  • 00:07:30
    i was but i was in a point in my life
  • 00:07:33
    where i didn't know what the what
  • 00:07:34
    the next step was i was really
  • 00:07:36
    struggling honestly internally
  • 00:07:38
    because i had wanted to be an architect
  • 00:07:40
    for so long and then
  • 00:07:42
    i felt personally i kind of felt a loss
  • 00:07:44
    of identity because i was like well if i
  • 00:07:46
    don't want to be an architect then what
  • 00:07:48
    do i want to be
  • 00:07:49
    um i was i was younger i didn't have a
  • 00:07:52
    family
  • 00:07:54
    i didn't have a boyfriend i had no
  • 00:07:56
    connections um
  • 00:07:58
    and i just kind of took the risk and
  • 00:08:01
    uh what i felt wasn't actually a much
  • 00:08:03
    needed break
  • 00:08:04
    um so i actually you know there's all of
  • 00:08:07
    these
  • 00:08:08
    there's even within the mba program
  • 00:08:10
    there's these groups
  • 00:08:11
    like the green building club or the real
  • 00:08:13
    estate development club or the building
  • 00:08:15
    tech club
  • 00:08:16
    and i i actually specifically just
  • 00:08:19
    it's like what if i just take a break
  • 00:08:21
    from architecture all together
  • 00:08:23
    and explore if anything
  • 00:08:26
    speaks to me um and it was actually
  • 00:08:29
    through that break that i realized i
  • 00:08:31
    needed to do something that aligned a
  • 00:08:33
    little bit more closely with
  • 00:08:35
    with architecture because i actually
  • 00:08:36
    missed it um
  • 00:08:39
    but but yeah i it's like if i were to
  • 00:08:43
    go do that now i think you know as a
  • 00:08:45
    mother
  • 00:08:46
    you know now married it's much harder
  • 00:08:50
    it would it would be much harder
  • 00:08:51
    honestly for me to make that decision to
  • 00:08:53
    do that
  • 00:08:54
    now um so it was kind of like a right
  • 00:08:57
    time right place
  • 00:08:58
    and i just took the risk and took on the
  • 00:09:00
    debt and
  • 00:09:01
    kind of just dove head in right where
  • 00:09:05
    you let serendipity guide you
  • 00:09:09
    i i did but i knew you know
  • 00:09:14
    and maybe maybe i was a bit naive but i
  • 00:09:16
    felt like
  • 00:09:17
    well at least the very least i come out
  • 00:09:20
    of this with an
  • 00:09:21
    mba um so i've got to be able to
  • 00:09:24
    use to leverage that into another role
  • 00:09:26
    somehow
  • 00:09:27
    um so i i felt like
  • 00:09:31
    you know i i wasn't just sitting around
  • 00:09:33
    doing nothing trying to figure out
  • 00:09:35
    what's next i felt like i was like
  • 00:09:37
    actively pursuing what's next
  • 00:09:39
    right so if you could have gone back
  • 00:09:42
    before you did your mark would you have
  • 00:09:46
    just done the mba um no so
  • 00:09:49
    so the and i think and maybe things are
  • 00:09:52
    all serendipity i do
  • 00:09:54
    think like i i think
  • 00:09:57
    luck there is a there is an amount of
  • 00:09:59
    luck and in life
  • 00:10:00
    um but as my husband has said multiple
  • 00:10:03
    times to me i think
  • 00:10:04
    i think like some of the things that we
  • 00:10:07
    find comes out of luck
  • 00:10:09
    it also happens out of good intention
  • 00:10:11
    and
  • 00:10:12
    planning ultimately um
  • 00:10:15
    so the reason why i went and got my mark
  • 00:10:18
    after i finished my brx it was a
  • 00:10:20
    post-professional
  • 00:10:21
    type of three-month
  • 00:10:24
    degree was because my beard was so
  • 00:10:28
    technical and i really wanted to
  • 00:10:32
    explore the theoretical side of
  • 00:10:33
    architecture i felt like there was
  • 00:10:35
    a lot of things going on in computer
  • 00:10:36
    graphics um or just computer modeling
  • 00:10:39
    that we weren't touching
  • 00:10:40
    when i in my undergrad and i didn't know
  • 00:10:43
    enough i mean how
  • 00:10:44
    how many people know in high school that
  • 00:10:48
    architecture programs are so different
  • 00:10:51
    um
  • 00:10:53
    i mean i i thought i knew a lot of this
  • 00:10:55
    a senior but i
  • 00:10:56
    like i knew enough to go and look for an
  • 00:10:58
    accredited program but i didn't realize
  • 00:11:00
    like
  • 00:11:01
    the huge swings in the differences in
  • 00:11:03
    curriculum that those accredited
  • 00:11:05
    programs could really provide you
  • 00:11:07
    um so i i did it because i wanted a
  • 00:11:10
    theater
  • 00:11:10
    like i just i felt like i was missing an
  • 00:11:13
    important part
  • 00:11:14
    of my education um and i wouldn't take
  • 00:11:18
    that back
  • 00:11:18
    because i actually did this incredible
  • 00:11:21
    um
  • 00:11:21
    scenario planning studio with natalia
  • 00:11:24
    devries
  • 00:11:24
    from mbr um nbr plus tv here tv
  • 00:11:28
    or nvrdb yes sorry within the mr
  • 00:11:32
    plus d program but natalie of nbr vd
  • 00:11:35
    um she she and michael speaks led this
  • 00:11:38
    scenario planning
  • 00:11:40
    studio which at a core was a lot of
  • 00:11:44
    how do you gather data to make decisions
  • 00:11:47
    on
  • 00:11:47
    a broader scale you know what type of
  • 00:11:49
    community
  • 00:11:50
    engagement do you need and it was
  • 00:11:53
    strategic planning so ultimately
  • 00:11:55
    if i like look at the arc of everything
  • 00:11:58
    i've done um like that was my favorite
  • 00:12:01
    studio throughout all
  • 00:12:03
    of my education um if i had realized
  • 00:12:06
    that sooner
  • 00:12:07
    i think i may have been able to actually
  • 00:12:09
    get to my career path
  • 00:12:11
    sooner um but it took me a while for me
  • 00:12:13
    to realize like that's the type of thing
  • 00:12:15
    that i actually want to be doing
  • 00:12:17
    so i mean hindsight no
  • 00:12:21
    i would have like if i had gone and done
  • 00:12:23
    my mba i would have missed out on that
  • 00:12:26
    very right it your path is kind of
  • 00:12:29
    interesting because i think a lot of
  • 00:12:30
    people find that
  • 00:12:31
    their br gets a little bit too
  • 00:12:33
    theoretical and it's not
  • 00:12:35
    technical enough so
  • 00:12:38
    yeah it's interesting that you went to
  • 00:12:40
    you went back to your mr
  • 00:12:42
    to get more of that theoretical
  • 00:12:43
    experience yeah
  • 00:12:45
    i also had this romantic notion of
  • 00:12:46
    wanting to be a teacher
  • 00:12:48
    that has never come to fruition so well
  • 00:12:50
    you're kind of a teacher now
  • 00:12:52
    because you're i guess doing all these
  • 00:12:54
    interviews
  • 00:12:55
    yeah thank you for that
  • 00:12:58
    [Music]
  • 00:13:00
    um so okay yeah that's interesting
  • 00:13:04
    so you because i think the
  • 00:13:07
    notion is that the
  • 00:13:10
    academics have to be more grounded in
  • 00:13:13
    reality the
  • 00:13:14
    um like architectural schooling has to
  • 00:13:16
    be more grounded in reality
  • 00:13:18
    um and be more relevant and it's
  • 00:13:21
    the academics i have to catch up with
  • 00:13:23
    the industry not
  • 00:13:24
    the other way around but yes i think i
  • 00:13:27
    mean that's an ongoing argument
  • 00:13:29
    right between academics and
  • 00:13:30
    practitioners i think
  • 00:13:32
    i think i mean for me the theoretical
  • 00:13:35
    side is more important because that's
  • 00:13:37
    where you learn
  • 00:13:39
    approaches to problem solving and that's
  • 00:13:41
    an implementation and execution and
  • 00:13:44
    and that's a little bit different than
  • 00:13:46
    um
  • 00:13:47
    i i i don't know so i um maybe we'll get
  • 00:13:51
    around to this
  • 00:13:52
    but the way we approach traditional
  • 00:13:53
    practice um
  • 00:13:55
    is is kind of failing i think
  • 00:13:58
    our profession a little bit like it's um
  • 00:14:01
    the business model is failing so i would
  • 00:14:03
    hate to see education
  • 00:14:06
    focus on purely creating people that can
  • 00:14:09
    create construction documents when
  • 00:14:12
    that's kind of the lowest denominator of
  • 00:14:14
    our value that we provide as architects
  • 00:14:16
    like i would much rather see education
  • 00:14:18
    producing
  • 00:14:19
    um interesting and unique problem
  • 00:14:21
    solvers and systemic thinkers because i
  • 00:14:23
    think that's where our value really is
  • 00:14:26
    right right and that's the work that
  • 00:14:28
    you're doing with
  • 00:14:29
    practice of architecture yeah
  • 00:14:32
    a little bit about that yeah of course
  • 00:14:35
    uh
  • 00:14:36
    so i i mean i i've been very i've been
  • 00:14:39
    come very public um about the need for
  • 00:14:43
    what i see traditional practice to
  • 00:14:44
    evolve i actually really enjoyed my time
  • 00:14:47
    at mk think because it provided a
  • 00:14:49
    unique platform as a strategic
  • 00:14:53
    thinker and as a leader one of the
  • 00:14:55
    leaders of the strategy group
  • 00:14:57
    um at a what i would consider a small to
  • 00:15:00
    medium-sized firm so
  • 00:15:02
    a lot of people when they think about
  • 00:15:04
    strategy
  • 00:15:05
    right they think like oh it's the
  • 00:15:06
    gentlers and the hk's and the perkins
  • 00:15:08
    and wills who can only
  • 00:15:10
    afford kind of the overhead to pay for
  • 00:15:12
    strategists and researchers
  • 00:15:14
    mk-pink was this medium-sized firm that
  • 00:15:17
    really made strategy its core competency
  • 00:15:20
    um and the revenue it brought in was on
  • 00:15:24
    par
  • 00:15:24
    if not above i i feel what the
  • 00:15:26
    architects brought in
  • 00:15:28
    partly because we could even just charge
  • 00:15:29
    more from an hourly rate perspective
  • 00:15:32
    um so it's a good model of how we can
  • 00:15:36
    evolve traditional practice
  • 00:15:38
    even at a smaller scale and
  • 00:15:41
    and expand our services and raise our
  • 00:15:44
    value and have more touch points with
  • 00:15:45
    our clients
  • 00:15:46
    and i think it's a model that more
  • 00:15:49
    architecture firms need to
  • 00:15:50
    follow to remain relevant and to to be
  • 00:15:54
    i i hear a lot of architects talk about
  • 00:15:56
    how you know they want to be
  • 00:15:58
    you know the first person that a client
  • 00:16:01
    picks like picks up the phone with when
  • 00:16:03
    when they need to discuss something
  • 00:16:05
    about business or intricacies or
  • 00:16:08
    they want to be that go-to knowledge
  • 00:16:09
    asset uh
  • 00:16:11
    and we we swim in such a narrow lane
  • 00:16:15
    that it's hard for clients to fully
  • 00:16:17
    understand
  • 00:16:18
    um that we have other capabilities until
  • 00:16:21
    we start actively participating in other
  • 00:16:23
    areas
  • 00:16:25
    right trying to get the architect more
  • 00:16:27
    into the phase
  • 00:16:28
    zero right right so i guess a long story
  • 00:16:31
    short now i'll get off my soapbox
  • 00:16:33
    was that practice of architecture was
  • 00:16:34
    kind of founded to help
  • 00:16:37
    architects think more about the other
  • 00:16:39
    services that they can be providing
  • 00:16:41
    to really bring in examples from other
  • 00:16:44
    industries about how we can
  • 00:16:46
    even change our approaches to business
  • 00:16:50
    development
  • 00:16:51
    marketing what are some of the examples
  • 00:16:56
    um okay so and i don't know hopefully
  • 00:16:59
    this is not a replay
  • 00:17:00
    of of a previous um
  • 00:17:04
    of a previous comment i made in another
  • 00:17:07
    interview but
  • 00:17:08
    um a good example would be for instance
  • 00:17:11
    i've seen a lot more architects
  • 00:17:14
    advertising on instagram right now
  • 00:17:17
    and when you click through a lot of them
  • 00:17:19
    i actually reached out every time this
  • 00:17:20
    happened i reached out to them directly
  • 00:17:22
    when you they click through a lot of
  • 00:17:24
    them you just land on their website
  • 00:17:27
    um which is great i mean i guess you're
  • 00:17:29
    you're
  • 00:17:30
    engaging your your numbers on your
  • 00:17:32
    website
  • 00:17:34
    going up but you're not getting paid um
  • 00:17:36
    on the amount of clicks that you get on
  • 00:17:37
    your website
  • 00:17:38
    right so anytime that you do not put a
  • 00:17:41
    contact form
  • 00:17:43
    um in front of that click or or just
  • 00:17:46
    after that click
  • 00:17:47
    it's like an opportunity it's a it's a
  • 00:17:48
    lost lead right like that was a person
  • 00:17:50
    who
  • 00:17:51
    you got interested in but you didn't do
  • 00:17:53
    anything to capture
  • 00:17:54
    their information um so even simple
  • 00:17:58
    things like that where if you click on
  • 00:18:00
    every single arc like
  • 00:18:01
    other instagram ad i'm sure you get it
  • 00:18:04
    you know
  • 00:18:04
    here's five quick tips to download even
  • 00:18:07
    your
  • 00:18:07
    name and email address so it's i mean
  • 00:18:11
    even something as small as that is
  • 00:18:12
    something that i think we can learn from
  • 00:18:15
    right yeah i think the whole um
  • 00:18:18
    marketing through online is
  • 00:18:20
    fairly new to a lot of firms and they
  • 00:18:23
    still have this notion that
  • 00:18:24
    it's word of mouth or which is a really
  • 00:18:28
    big part of how you get clients but
  • 00:18:30
    word of mouth or reference and they
  • 00:18:32
    don't really take the time to
  • 00:18:35
    advertise or learn how to advertise in
  • 00:18:38
    these
  • 00:18:39
    different different media streams
  • 00:18:43
    yeah and then there's simple things that
  • 00:18:45
    um
  • 00:18:47
    so the architecture from that worked for
  • 00:18:49
    for a long time we were still doing time
  • 00:18:50
    cards in excel
  • 00:18:52
    like there's just simple things that you
  • 00:18:53
    can automate so it's just not as tedious
  • 00:18:56
    of a process
  • 00:18:56
    and then you can use that time um on
  • 00:18:59
    other things
  • 00:19:00
    uh to to build your business so
  • 00:19:03
    so those are those are like the more
  • 00:19:04
    simple things the more interest the
  • 00:19:06
    harder things
  • 00:19:07
    is just you know how do you look at your
  • 00:19:09
    addition like your current talent pool
  • 00:19:11
    and your current clients and identify
  • 00:19:15
    um potential services that you could be
  • 00:19:18
    selling
  • 00:19:18
    above and beyond what you're doing right
  • 00:19:20
    now
  • 00:19:22
    so one of the things that you were
  • 00:19:26
    selling at
  • 00:19:27
    mmk mtk i think
  • 00:19:30
    mk think was
  • 00:19:33
    strategizing on how you can use the
  • 00:19:36
    spaces rather than just doing the
  • 00:19:38
    construction
  • 00:19:40
    it was it was um and we did we did get
  • 00:19:43
    into operations and processes in some
  • 00:19:45
    instances but
  • 00:19:46
    um it was i would say with strategic
  • 00:19:48
    consulting and that sometimes you even
  • 00:19:50
    go
  • 00:19:51
    to the large consulting firms for um but
  • 00:19:54
    it's around the health environment
  • 00:19:56
    so like one project that i wasn't
  • 00:19:59
    directly
  • 00:20:01
    um directly put on but
  • 00:20:04
    it's one of the more interesting ones to
  • 00:20:06
    tell is
  • 00:20:08
    that we were working with the san
  • 00:20:10
    francisco unified school district
  • 00:20:12
    so a lot of students for instance rely
  • 00:20:14
    on
  • 00:20:16
    school for their their food
  • 00:20:19
    so they were looking at you know how
  • 00:20:22
    what
  • 00:20:22
    what is the cost on the district
  • 00:20:25
    versus the gain to the the children
  • 00:20:29
    um to to one provide an additional meal
  • 00:20:33
    so can they do breakfast and lunch
  • 00:20:35
    and then how do they
  • 00:20:38
    create what are the operational
  • 00:20:40
    processes based on
  • 00:20:42
    their current facilities to provide
  • 00:20:45
    like a good health healthy
  • 00:20:48
    alternative meals so we
  • 00:20:51
    so the group went in and they took
  • 00:20:53
    account of every single piece of kitchen
  • 00:20:55
    equipment
  • 00:20:56
    and every school that had a kitchen
  • 00:20:59
    and then they set up like how do you
  • 00:21:01
    where do we need to centralize the
  • 00:21:03
    kitchen for san francisco unified
  • 00:21:05
    district
  • 00:21:06
    and based on the equipment available at
  • 00:21:09
    the other kitchens how far do we need to
  • 00:21:11
    par-cook the food
  • 00:21:12
    before we deliver it on-site and how do
  • 00:21:15
    we optimize
  • 00:21:16
    kind of our delivery stream to save the
  • 00:21:19
    most money
  • 00:21:19
    as we can so we can serve the most
  • 00:21:21
    students so that
  • 00:21:23
    that was i mean it's space related but
  • 00:21:25
    it also has like a social justice
  • 00:21:28
    overlay to it and it was you know
  • 00:21:29
    serving the community so
  • 00:21:32
    so that was the type of strategic work
  • 00:21:34
    that um we were involved in
  • 00:21:37
    so was that completely separated from
  • 00:21:39
    the construction work or did that
  • 00:21:41
    eventually funnel in the or was that a
  • 00:21:44
    method of funneling in the
  • 00:21:45
    architectural work um so it
  • 00:21:50
    i would say so the strategic work we
  • 00:21:52
    consider we considered
  • 00:21:53
    strategy a strategic studio so sometimes
  • 00:21:57
    it led to construction work
  • 00:21:58
    sometimes it didn't but at any rate it
  • 00:22:02
    always
  • 00:22:03
    provided us to not provide us provided
  • 00:22:05
    us an opportunity to expand
  • 00:22:08
    the different clients that we were
  • 00:22:09
    working with um
  • 00:22:12
    we we didn't end up on the
  • 00:22:14
    implementation side of that one
  • 00:22:16
    there was um i'm i'm still working on
  • 00:22:20
    and off i have
  • 00:22:21
    a long-standing uh partnership with uc
  • 00:22:24
    hastings that i
  • 00:22:25
    established when i was at mk think and
  • 00:22:28
    i am still doing work for them this
  • 00:22:31
    you know with them to this day but
  • 00:22:33
    essentially we did
  • 00:22:35
    the long-range strategic plan for their
  • 00:22:38
    campus
  • 00:22:39
    and the cfo is keeping me on to make
  • 00:22:41
    sure that we implement
  • 00:22:42
    successfully against that long-range
  • 00:22:44
    strategic plan um
  • 00:22:46
    so i've been on the client side in that
  • 00:22:49
    case and i'm selecting the architects to
  • 00:22:51
    build
  • 00:22:52
    or are part of the architect selection
  • 00:22:54
    um and helping
  • 00:22:55
    the university do programming and
  • 00:22:57
    planning um
  • 00:22:58
    and now we're supporting them on wave
  • 00:23:00
    binding and signage
  • 00:23:02
    uh because they have a very they have a
  • 00:23:05
    distributed urban campus they have
  • 00:23:07
    it's an urban campus with multiple
  • 00:23:08
    different buildings um
  • 00:23:11
    so yeah we're finding lots of different
  • 00:23:12
    ways to support them strategically that
  • 00:23:14
    doesn't necessarily always end up with a
  • 00:23:16
    building
  • 00:23:17
    and there there will always be um the
  • 00:23:20
    architects that one
  • 00:23:21
    don't consider me an architect anymore
  • 00:23:24
    which
  • 00:23:25
    took me which is i feel hurtful but i'll
  • 00:23:28
    get over it
  • 00:23:29
    but but too um because i i
  • 00:23:32
    very much consider what i'm doing like
  • 00:23:34
    still architecturally related i
  • 00:23:36
    i draw from my architectural background
  • 00:23:37
    a lot but two i think
  • 00:23:39
    you know there will be those individuals
  • 00:23:41
    that like if i'm not building
  • 00:23:42
    doing a building i'm not an architect um
  • 00:23:45
    and to that i i just have to say
  • 00:23:47
    um you know again these opportunities
  • 00:23:50
    provide additional value to your clients
  • 00:23:53
    they will be calling you
  • 00:23:55
    when they don't need a building um which
  • 00:23:57
    means that they will absolutely be
  • 00:23:58
    calling you when they do need a building
  • 00:24:00
    but
  • 00:24:00
    if you know if we're such a relationship
  • 00:24:03
    based
  • 00:24:05
    um service provider then these
  • 00:24:07
    opportunities are really expanding those
  • 00:24:08
    relationships
  • 00:24:10
    yeah and i think even at a smaller scale
  • 00:24:13
    i was just speaking to
  • 00:24:14
    um an architect who oh that's the video
  • 00:24:18
    that i posted in the women in
  • 00:24:19
    architecture group it was the architect
  • 00:24:21
    who works with indigenous communities
  • 00:24:23
    and um he's a sole proprietor but even
  • 00:24:26
    he's very involved in like the initial
  • 00:24:29
    stages of the project where they're
  • 00:24:30
    trying to get funding
  • 00:24:32
    where they're trying to strategize on
  • 00:24:34
    how they can
  • 00:24:35
    build up their like employment
  • 00:24:40
    employment rates in the community and
  • 00:24:43
    doesn't necessarily translate into an
  • 00:24:45
    architectural project but
  • 00:24:47
    like it's a part of his services he
  • 00:24:49
    doesn't really market it that way but
  • 00:24:51
    you know it is and um it sometimes leads
  • 00:24:55
    to architectural work sometimes
  • 00:24:57
    it doesn't but yeah it seems like um
  • 00:25:01
    being able to be a part of that
  • 00:25:05
    decision making process right in the
  • 00:25:08
    beginning
  • 00:25:08
    is where architects should all
  • 00:25:12
    want to go right i mean if you're in
  • 00:25:15
    that position then you're usually
  • 00:25:17
    actually the one setting the like
  • 00:25:19
    helping set the budget
  • 00:25:20
    you know for a capital campaign um
  • 00:25:23
    and and quite frankly i actually like
  • 00:25:25
    being on
  • 00:25:27
    on the client side and being the one
  • 00:25:29
    who's hiring the architects
  • 00:25:30
    because then i can i can take that and i
  • 00:25:32
    can say like okay um
  • 00:25:34
    i i end up reaching out to a lot of
  • 00:25:36
    architects who actually don't
  • 00:25:37
    make it who aren't selected to build our
  • 00:25:39
    products and slack and just say
  • 00:25:42
    um you know the next interview you go in
  • 00:25:45
    to here's kind of five to seven tips
  • 00:25:48
    that you might want to consider
  • 00:25:49
    and that's that's different to your
  • 00:25:52
    approach to really make you stand out
  • 00:25:54
    um can you can you talk about those tips
  • 00:25:58
    um okay well get super high level i i
  • 00:26:01
    mean i think this is the most obvious
  • 00:26:02
    one
  • 00:26:03
    because i've been i've been the
  • 00:26:04
    diversity hire that people drag along
  • 00:26:08
    to interview right but if you are going
  • 00:26:10
    to so blatantly do that make sure that
  • 00:26:12
    those individuals actually have a voice
  • 00:26:14
    in the presentation
  • 00:26:16
    and they're not just like a pretty face
  • 00:26:18
    that's sitting and smiling
  • 00:26:19
    throughout the presentation so that
  • 00:26:22
    would be like a really
  • 00:26:23
    really easy one but sometimes like a
  • 00:26:26
    principle is not going to change
  • 00:26:28
    that internally like i feel like
  • 00:26:32
    um the individual got that got dragged
  • 00:26:34
    along
  • 00:26:35
    could probably not say that to the
  • 00:26:37
    principal of the firm
  • 00:26:38
    which is with as much impact as i could
  • 00:26:41
    as a potential client
  • 00:26:42
    saying you you didn't show
  • 00:26:45
    us the value of your team because you
  • 00:26:47
    didn't let your entire team speak
  • 00:26:49
    um so i feel like as
  • 00:26:52
    as a as somebody who's hiring the
  • 00:26:54
    architects i almost um
  • 00:26:56
    i'm giving the principal the business
  • 00:26:58
    case right for
  • 00:26:59
    changing what they're doing versus the
  • 00:27:02
    internal person struggling saying i
  • 00:27:03
    really wish i could have a voice
  • 00:27:05
    you know during these interviews
  • 00:27:08
    right um do you have any
  • 00:27:11
    tips for architecture students who are
  • 00:27:14
    in school right now because i feel like
  • 00:27:16
    the industry is
  • 00:27:17
    changing so much especially with kovid
  • 00:27:20
    that
  • 00:27:21
    i think a lot of people are going to
  • 00:27:23
    have to be equipped with skills
  • 00:27:25
    outside of architecture but they're
  • 00:27:27
    skills that are not really
  • 00:27:29
    defined so yeah
  • 00:27:33
    how would you um yeah i mean i
  • 00:27:37
    it's it's so tears
  • 00:27:40
    um i would
  • 00:27:45
    i would um as a student i think
  • 00:27:50
    um people always want to talk to
  • 00:27:53
    students
  • 00:27:53
    and help guide careers right or
  • 00:27:56
    help students figure out the next path
  • 00:27:59
    this was even true
  • 00:28:00
    in my late 20s when i went back to
  • 00:28:02
    school and i would just say like hi and
  • 00:28:04
    you know i'd reach out to people and say
  • 00:28:05
    hi i'm an mba student i would really
  • 00:28:07
    like to learn more about your path
  • 00:28:09
    like would you like do you mind
  • 00:28:11
    connecting
  • 00:28:12
    like i would say a little bit more what
  • 00:28:15
    i'm
  • 00:28:16
    more specifically interested in learning
  • 00:28:17
    about somebody's path and then
  • 00:28:19
    ask for like a 10 to 15 minute phone
  • 00:28:21
    call which usually
  • 00:28:23
    in the best case scenario always turned
  • 00:28:25
    into a half hour or hour long phone call
  • 00:28:27
    um but i think if you're if you're kind
  • 00:28:31
    of struggling with how do i
  • 00:28:32
    use these skills i'm getting in
  • 00:28:34
    architecture school and where do i want
  • 00:28:35
    to end up
  • 00:28:36
    and if it's not necessarily in
  • 00:28:37
    traditional practice like now is your
  • 00:28:39
    opportunity
  • 00:28:40
    to kind of create an identity on a
  • 00:28:43
    network like linkedin and kind of just
  • 00:28:45
    cold email people that you are
  • 00:28:48
    interested
  • 00:28:48
    in learning a bit more about how they
  • 00:28:52
    got there
  • 00:28:53
    there's so many new jobs and fields that
  • 00:28:57
    come
  • 00:28:57
    that have opened up i think in the like
  • 00:28:59
    in the
  • 00:29:00
    you know in the last 10 years that
  • 00:29:04
    you will find that a lot of people that
  • 00:29:06
    are in these positions i'm like one
  • 00:29:08
    might be
  • 00:29:08
    um like data data visualization like
  • 00:29:12
    even if you think about
  • 00:29:13
    if you think about um kind of how
  • 00:29:17
    like even the elections right um
  • 00:29:20
    how much more data you see on television
  • 00:29:23
    screens right now about like where
  • 00:29:25
    elections are headed how the vote's
  • 00:29:26
    going
  • 00:29:27
    um versus how people just usually talked
  • 00:29:30
    to that data before so there's
  • 00:29:32
    there's been this whole new data vis
  • 00:29:35
    career that's taken off um
  • 00:29:39
    and and that's happened i think you know
  • 00:29:42
    with
  • 00:29:43
    like that's really accelerated within
  • 00:29:44
    the last five years so people
  • 00:29:46
    that are in that field right now are
  • 00:29:49
    relatively new to the field themselves
  • 00:29:51
    so like here's a great opportunity to
  • 00:29:53
    see like how did you identify that
  • 00:29:55
    career path
  • 00:29:56
    you know what actually led you there
  • 00:29:58
    what steps did you need to take and just
  • 00:30:00
    just be be the inquisitive student that
  • 00:30:02
    you already are
  • 00:30:03
    and and ask those questions and i think
  • 00:30:05
    by asking a lot of questions
  • 00:30:07
    you'll get to answers about your own
  • 00:30:09
    career sooner
  • 00:30:12
    i think you also mentioned in the
  • 00:30:15
    other interview with joanne that it's
  • 00:30:18
    like if you are looking for a career
  • 00:30:21
    pivot it's really
  • 00:30:22
    hard to get a job just by like cold
  • 00:30:24
    resume
  • 00:30:25
    it's usually through networking
  • 00:30:28
    and yeah i mean i think it's always
  • 00:30:31
    especially within
  • 00:30:32
    the tech world i i mean i was extremely
  • 00:30:34
    lucky but i think it's
  • 00:30:36
    it's always easier to get a referral
  • 00:30:39
    with from from somebody within the
  • 00:30:41
    company than it is to do
  • 00:30:43
    like the cold email so um
  • 00:30:46
    so if you have these informational
  • 00:30:48
    interviews and then something comes up
  • 00:30:51
    like in their company and you haven't
  • 00:30:53
    even reached out to a person for like
  • 00:30:55
    six months
  • 00:30:55
    i think it's it's easy enough to say you
  • 00:30:57
    know i really enjoyed our conversation
  • 00:30:59
    it was aspirational i saw this interview
  • 00:31:01
    i saw this opening that i
  • 00:31:03
    saw pop up on your career site and i
  • 00:31:06
    just wanted to let you know that i was
  • 00:31:07
    as applying if you could put in a good
  • 00:31:09
    word for me that would be wonderful
  • 00:31:10
    and um i'd like to find out more
  • 00:31:13
    about it could you redirect me to the
  • 00:31:15
    hiring manager or
  • 00:31:16
    would you be willing to have a like have
  • 00:31:18
    a conversation
  • 00:31:20
    um it just and this is true of
  • 00:31:22
    architecture firms too
  • 00:31:24
    right um so even if you don't want to
  • 00:31:26
    leave traditional practice which
  • 00:31:28
    there are definitely people who want to
  • 00:31:30
    stay stay in it and
  • 00:31:31
    and are like i was never a good designer
  • 00:31:34
    there's definitely good designers who i
  • 00:31:35
    think
  • 00:31:36
    need to stay in architecture um
  • 00:31:39
    but um even then like you could do these
  • 00:31:42
    same informational interviews
  • 00:31:43
    with with architecture firms and you'll
  • 00:31:45
    actually find that principles are much
  • 00:31:47
    more accessible
  • 00:31:49
    again when you're coming from the point
  • 00:31:50
    of like i'm a student i've seen your
  • 00:31:52
    work on this i see
  • 00:31:54
    your talk your article can i get 10 to
  • 00:31:56
    15 minutes of your time
  • 00:31:57
    um so just think about like what an
  • 00:32:00
    impact that leaves then
  • 00:32:01
    when later you are going through the
  • 00:32:03
    recruiting team and you you can say hey
  • 00:32:05
    i talked to your principal
  • 00:32:06
    earlier about your firm and this is what
  • 00:32:08
    i'm really excited about
  • 00:32:10
    so yeah right
  • 00:32:13
    right and what about
  • 00:32:17
    um so i think a lot of people
  • 00:32:20
    you also talked about cleaning up your
  • 00:32:23
    google presence
  • 00:32:24
    making sure that everything that's on
  • 00:32:26
    there is what you want people to see
  • 00:32:29
    yeah i mean and it's i'm not saying that
  • 00:32:32
    you shouldn't have
  • 00:32:34
    a political voice even in this climate
  • 00:32:37
    but i just think
  • 00:32:38
    that you should be aware of everybody
  • 00:32:41
    reading that and that
  • 00:32:42
    um uh i mean even the things that we're
  • 00:32:45
    doing at the aia
  • 00:32:47
    and even our statement are our stronger
  • 00:32:49
    statement that came out regarding black
  • 00:32:51
    lives matter
  • 00:32:52
    and um it
  • 00:32:56
    it's device or you know it's it's
  • 00:32:58
    dividing
  • 00:32:59
    right we we did not bring the entire
  • 00:33:02
    membership along with that statement so
  • 00:33:05
    so just know that um
  • 00:33:09
    just be aware that what you say may turn
  • 00:33:12
    some people off um and if you're okay
  • 00:33:15
    with that then
  • 00:33:16
    by all means like use your voice
  • 00:33:20
    um but but if you're if you're not okay
  • 00:33:23
    with
  • 00:33:24
    with being judged on what you're saying
  • 00:33:26
    out in public then just don't say it out
  • 00:33:28
    in public
  • 00:33:28
    right right what about if you have a
  • 00:33:33
    um i think a lot of people have like a
  • 00:33:35
    side
  • 00:33:36
    side income side hustle and
  • 00:33:40
    let's say their web page leads straight
  • 00:33:42
    to that
  • 00:33:43
    which might not correlate
  • 00:33:46
    exactly with like where they want to go
  • 00:33:48
    with their careers
  • 00:33:50
    right um how
  • 00:33:53
    what do you think about that interesting
  • 00:33:56
    one i mean i've
  • 00:33:58
    i've always been very public about my
  • 00:33:59
    side hustles
  • 00:34:02
    um i've i've been i wrote i started
  • 00:34:04
    writing back in
  • 00:34:06
    oh i don't know 2004 before writing for
  • 00:34:09
    a blog was actually a thing
  • 00:34:11
    um
  • 00:34:15
    and i but i've always i don't know i've
  • 00:34:16
    always been very clear but i've also
  • 00:34:18
    been very clear because i
  • 00:34:20
    want whomever i work with to
  • 00:34:24
    to appreciate the fact that i'm engaged
  • 00:34:27
    there
  • 00:34:28
    um but again like i i
  • 00:34:31
    i think i think you just have to realize
  • 00:34:33
    the people you are attracting and the
  • 00:34:35
    people
  • 00:34:36
    you might be um discouraging with
  • 00:34:38
    whatever you put out there
  • 00:34:40
    um and know that you know and
  • 00:34:43
    there's definitely firms that are going
  • 00:34:44
    to be like you can't have a side hustle
  • 00:34:47
    so the truth of it is one i would not
  • 00:34:50
    want to work for those
  • 00:34:51
    firms but like two like they would very
  • 00:34:53
    quickly find out
  • 00:34:54
    um and they would probably just not
  • 00:34:56
    pursue me either so i
  • 00:34:58
    i i mean i guess i would just say like
  • 00:35:01
    be honest and true to who you are and
  • 00:35:03
    realize what you're putting out there
  • 00:35:04
    and
  • 00:35:05
    and who that attracts and who that
  • 00:35:07
    scares away so
  • 00:35:09
    and eventually you'll find the right
  • 00:35:11
    match that appreciates
  • 00:35:13
    you for who you are yeah hopefully i
  • 00:35:15
    mean i think i think there is the
  • 00:35:17
    ability for all of us to craft
  • 00:35:18
    to craft that i also think like um
  • 00:35:23
    i definitely had those jobs where it was
  • 00:35:25
    just just a job and i needed an income
  • 00:35:28
    um and that's okay like i learned from
  • 00:35:30
    those two so
  • 00:35:32
    um you know sometimes you end up there
  • 00:35:36
    but it's any any job you're in is
  • 00:35:39
    is only temporary until you're ready
  • 00:35:40
    until you find the next thing
  • 00:35:43
    so manage your expectations around that
  • 00:35:45
    as well
  • 00:35:47
    well can you talk about that a little
  • 00:35:49
    bit like your transition phase
  • 00:35:51
    i think you wrote up um an article
  • 00:35:55
    um pretty recently about um william
  • 00:35:58
    bridges this book
  • 00:35:59
    dropship oh yeah that was that was one
  • 00:36:01
    of our so that was one of our
  • 00:36:03
    collaborators on um practice of
  • 00:36:05
    architecture so i didn't write that
  • 00:36:06
    laura weiss actually wrote that
  • 00:36:08
    right okay um well did you did you read
  • 00:36:12
    it
  • 00:36:12
    did you read it oh i read the article i
  • 00:36:14
    haven't actually haven't read
  • 00:36:16
    the book i mean the interesting thing
  • 00:36:18
    about laura though is
  • 00:36:19
    um she she is a generation so i'm
  • 00:36:23
    generation x i would say she's a
  • 00:36:25
    generation older
  • 00:36:27
    than me and she made her last career
  • 00:36:30
    pivot
  • 00:36:30
    just within the last year so if
  • 00:36:34
    i guess the biggest lesson there is that
  • 00:36:36
    like it's you're never
  • 00:36:37
    it's never too late in your right right
  • 00:36:41
    even if you have given all of this time
  • 00:36:45
    to you know a profession we've i've been
  • 00:36:49
    talking to a lot of people about
  • 00:36:52
    one thing that architects and
  • 00:36:53
    particularly they struggle with is like
  • 00:36:55
    they're
  • 00:36:56
    we we see our career especially if you
  • 00:36:58
    go into traditional practice it's this
  • 00:37:00
    very linear path right
  • 00:37:02
    like everyone's focused on you should
  • 00:37:03
    get your license then once you get your
  • 00:37:04
    license you must be on this some
  • 00:37:07
    somewhere on the partner principal
  • 00:37:09
    partner check
  • 00:37:10
    um i think that's kind of detrimental
  • 00:37:14
    to to career building over the long term
  • 00:37:17
    because because then we forget like
  • 00:37:19
    there's other opportunities and then we
  • 00:37:22
    we we get in our own way because we're
  • 00:37:24
    like we've committed
  • 00:37:25
    so much time to this path like like how
  • 00:37:29
    could i ever step off of it
  • 00:37:31
    yeah you have to design your careers
  • 00:37:35
    as much as you you know design the
  • 00:37:37
    project absolutely
  • 00:37:41
    um sorry um so
  • 00:37:45
    just to go back to that transition face
  • 00:37:48
    a little bit so
  • 00:37:48
    in that article she um
  • 00:37:52
    they're talking about the
  • 00:37:56
    the crosswalk right and
  • 00:37:59
    as soon as you leave the sidewalk people
  • 00:38:01
    just want to get to the other side
  • 00:38:03
    but i think what uh bridges was saying
  • 00:38:06
    is that like you
  • 00:38:08
    want to try to stay and that yeah that
  • 00:38:10
    was a great metaphor
  • 00:38:11
    so can you talk a little bit about like
  • 00:38:14
    what that
  • 00:38:15
    phase of your life was like that
  • 00:38:17
    experience yeah i mean
  • 00:38:19
    so this happened recently actually i um
  • 00:38:22
    and i've been half public about it um
  • 00:38:25
    and and you know what my people at
  • 00:38:27
    slacknow so i recently joined a coaching
  • 00:38:30
    program
  • 00:38:31
    it is a five-figure
  • 00:38:34
    investment on my part to grow
  • 00:38:37
    the practice of architecture so for me
  • 00:38:42
    i had to sit with this decision for two
  • 00:38:44
    to three weeks um to really kind of
  • 00:38:46
    decide like is that something i
  • 00:38:48
    i want to take um you know and
  • 00:38:52
    and i was like i was questioning my own
  • 00:38:55
    ability to ever make that
  • 00:38:56
    like make back that money that i'm now
  • 00:38:58
    asking my family
  • 00:39:00
    to give up um so
  • 00:39:03
    so so yeah like that was like the
  • 00:39:05
    stepping off point right
  • 00:39:06
    but i decided to go for it and i'm all
  • 00:39:09
    in it
  • 00:39:10
    and i um we have a forthcoming
  • 00:39:13
    partnership announcement that we're
  • 00:39:16
    announcing later today
  • 00:39:17
    that like like like that so the class
  • 00:39:21
    the business coaching class already put
  • 00:39:22
    me in this new mindset
  • 00:39:24
    um that's going to accelerate my ability
  • 00:39:27
    to make
  • 00:39:28
    meaningful impact in the practice of
  • 00:39:29
    architecture um if i had just like tried
  • 00:39:31
    to do it on my own
  • 00:39:33
    um but but yeah it was a it was a
  • 00:39:36
    it was not a decision that i took
  • 00:39:38
    lightly and it was one that involved
  • 00:39:41
    my husband and our finances and where we
  • 00:39:43
    were and what we would have to
  • 00:39:45
    move around or postpone because of this
  • 00:39:49
    decision
  • 00:39:50
    so yeah i imagine decisions like that
  • 00:39:53
    get harder and harder
  • 00:39:54
    as you get
  • 00:39:58
    older in your life yeah make all the
  • 00:40:01
    tough decisions now when you're younger
  • 00:40:03
    i'm just kidding no i mean i am grateful
  • 00:40:05
    for having such a supportive
  • 00:40:07
    husband um but but yeah like that
  • 00:40:11
    like the stepping off part is always the
  • 00:40:13
    hardest i think
  • 00:40:14
    um yeah but also like after i got over
  • 00:40:18
    the hump and we committed i'm
  • 00:40:19
    i'm fully committed to making that money
  • 00:40:23
    back for my family
  • 00:40:25
    that's definitely a motivator
  • 00:40:29
    your husband's just like watching over
  • 00:40:31
    you and you do the work
  • 00:40:33
    i know before he was like why are you
  • 00:40:34
    staying up till 2 a.m like doing this
  • 00:40:36
    practice of architecture that isn't
  • 00:40:37
    making
  • 00:40:38
    up like really any money and now he's
  • 00:40:41
    like you better stay up until 2am
  • 00:40:45
    no just he's not like that but it
  • 00:40:47
    definitely was an internal mindset
  • 00:40:49
    like shift like um yeah right right well
  • 00:40:52
    i think
  • 00:40:54
    like you've already found a successful
  • 00:40:56
    career path in tech
  • 00:40:58
    and but you're coming back to
  • 00:41:00
    architecture and
  • 00:41:01
    and trying to help architects find um
  • 00:41:04
    their path and helping them expand their
  • 00:41:09
    vision of what they could do so i like i
  • 00:41:11
    love that
  • 00:41:12
    and i i really appreciate that well i do
  • 00:41:15
    love architects so that's
  • 00:41:17
    that's never been an issue with me it's
  • 00:41:18
    just how we
  • 00:41:20
    how we do business i want more
  • 00:41:22
    architects to be successful
  • 00:41:26
    and you're on the um board at the aia
  • 00:41:29
    as well right i am um i joke that i'm
  • 00:41:32
    often the fly on the wall
  • 00:41:34
    like the the one non non-traditional
  • 00:41:36
    architects
  • 00:41:37
    on on the very small national board um
  • 00:41:39
    i'm actually
  • 00:41:40
    the treasurer right now and um i'm
  • 00:41:43
    you know i'm in trying to refocus us in
  • 00:41:46
    terms of like
  • 00:41:47
    you know how how do we find you know
  • 00:41:49
    whether other partnerships that we can
  • 00:41:51
    create what are other
  • 00:41:52
    mechanisms that we can use to drive
  • 00:41:54
    revenue as a
  • 00:41:56
    as a membership organization that
  • 00:41:58
    doesn't so heavily rely
  • 00:42:00
    on our members paying to be a part of it
  • 00:42:02
    um
  • 00:42:03
    so and especially at times like this
  • 00:42:06
    so so that's i mean that's kind of
  • 00:42:10
    where my my focus is um
  • 00:42:13
    being there in addition to just being an
  • 00:42:15
    active participating member
  • 00:42:17
    so they are they on board with this new
  • 00:42:21
    approach to practice um like um
  • 00:42:25
    i mean no i like no but they don't they
  • 00:42:28
    don't have
  • 00:42:29
    to be right i i was i was voted on by my
  • 00:42:33
    peers
  • 00:42:34
    i also ran unopposed because no one i
  • 00:42:37
    mean honestly no one wants to be a
  • 00:42:38
    treasurer
  • 00:42:40
    um and this is not a fun year to be a
  • 00:42:42
    treasurer
  • 00:42:44
    nor is next year i actually think next
  • 00:42:45
    year is going to be much harder for us
  • 00:42:47
    so nor is next year going to be a fun
  • 00:42:48
    year to be a treasurer
  • 00:42:52
    but i see it as a strategic opportunity
  • 00:42:55
    there are definitely people that respect
  • 00:42:58
    my different point of view whether or
  • 00:43:01
    not they're willing to change their
  • 00:43:02
    practice
  • 00:43:04
    to to follow what i'm saying and to
  • 00:43:08
    is i'm equally respectful of
  • 00:43:11
    what what they need to do um and what
  • 00:43:14
    they think they need to do
  • 00:43:15
    to to continue um but
  • 00:43:18
    but should they ever want to change i
  • 00:43:20
    will be here to help and support them
  • 00:43:24
    why do you think that the role of the
  • 00:43:26
    architect is so
  • 00:43:29
    um entrenched in traditional practice
  • 00:43:33
    i oh there's so much um
  • 00:43:38
    yeah wow that's like a huge like
  • 00:43:42
    we could spend all like an entire
  • 00:43:43
    afternoon i think i'm packing that one
  • 00:43:45
    um i i think it's just
  • 00:43:49
    i mean a lot of it i think has to do
  • 00:43:50
    with this age-old apprenticeship
  • 00:43:52
    model of like how how we
  • 00:43:56
    go through leadership transition in our
  • 00:43:58
    firms or actually how we don't go
  • 00:43:59
    through leadership transition in
  • 00:44:01
    our firms um a lot of it is
  • 00:44:06
    a lot of it i think is just even um
  • 00:44:09
    the culture the studio culture that we
  • 00:44:12
    came out of
  • 00:44:13
    um so on on a podcast actually
  • 00:44:16
    coming up on practice disrupted in
  • 00:44:20
    in a few weeks we talked to two
  • 00:44:23
    past aias so american institute of
  • 00:44:26
    architecture student leaders
  • 00:44:28
    who actually co like codified
  • 00:44:31
    um like kind of a
  • 00:44:34
    uh they could they codified studio
  • 00:44:37
    culture
  • 00:44:38
    or like the rights of the student in
  • 00:44:40
    studio culture
  • 00:44:42
    into the nab the national architecture
  • 00:44:44
    now i'm getting like too deep in this
  • 00:44:46
    the national architecture accreditation
  • 00:44:48
    board um
  • 00:44:51
    like the the requirements to become an
  • 00:44:54
    accredited program
  • 00:44:55
    and it's been interesting it wasn't it's
  • 00:44:58
    an interesting it was an interesting
  • 00:44:59
    conversation to me because i
  • 00:45:01
    what i learned out of that is that my
  • 00:45:04
    experience in studio
  • 00:45:05
    has been very different than the
  • 00:45:08
    experience
  • 00:45:10
    of students coming out of studio today
  • 00:45:13
    like my studio was much and
  • 00:45:16
    and the whole thing that drove studio
  • 00:45:18
    culture was the fact that
  • 00:45:19
    you know a student's life was lost
  • 00:45:21
    staying up
  • 00:45:22
    48 hours you know getting in a car
  • 00:45:25
    accident
  • 00:45:26
    like preparing for finals not to say
  • 00:45:30
    that's not funny anymore but but i mean
  • 00:45:32
    not to say that that
  • 00:45:33
    i mean honestly not to say that that
  • 00:45:35
    isn't happening anymore but i do
  • 00:45:37
    feel be because because our because
  • 00:45:40
    architects
  • 00:45:42
    um architectural schools are still
  • 00:45:43
    referred to as lighthouses on campuses
  • 00:45:46
    but um but there is
  • 00:45:49
    like but the the student the i feel like
  • 00:45:52
    the studio culture that students are
  • 00:45:54
    graduating out of
  • 00:45:55
    right now are is much more collaborative
  • 00:45:57
    and less competitive
  • 00:45:59
    than the studio culture that i graduated
  • 00:46:01
    out of
  • 00:46:02
    and the studio culture that i graduated
  • 00:46:04
    with perpetuates
  • 00:46:06
    this firm culture of we can't share
  • 00:46:08
    anything with our peers
  • 00:46:10
    we can't share anything with even people
  • 00:46:13
    in our firm until they're quote unquote
  • 00:46:14
    ready
  • 00:46:15
    or they've like gone through this rite
  • 00:46:17
    of passage
  • 00:46:18
    um that's really kind of held us in this
  • 00:46:21
    traditional practice model
  • 00:46:23
    uh whereas like you know i see a lot of
  • 00:46:26
    i see a lot of collaboration and a
  • 00:46:29
    bigger entrepreneurial
  • 00:46:31
    spirit coming out of the next generation
  • 00:46:34
    um
  • 00:46:35
    but i also see them struggling because
  • 00:46:37
    they're going into
  • 00:46:38
    these firms with firm leaders that
  • 00:46:40
    graduated
  • 00:46:42
    in my studio culture so if we can get
  • 00:46:44
    through that dynamic
  • 00:46:46
    then hopefully we can come out on the
  • 00:46:48
    other side
  • 00:46:49
    but it's it's just like it's just like a
  • 00:46:51
    weird dynamic happening
  • 00:46:53
    right now that's um and there's just a
  • 00:46:55
    lot of older leadership still in firms
  • 00:46:57
    that's just
  • 00:46:58
    perpetuating um kind of
  • 00:47:01
    what they grew out of yeah that's
  • 00:47:05
    just one of like so many reasons why we
  • 00:47:08
    can't get out of traditional practice
  • 00:47:10
    but yeah and it's changing now too with
  • 00:47:13
    covet
  • 00:47:14
    um everything has moved online yeah
  • 00:47:17
    absolutely
  • 00:47:18
    yeah i don't know what's going to happen
  • 00:47:19
    to that collaborative studio culture
  • 00:47:22
    yeah it'll be interesting to see
  • 00:47:24
    although i do i just talked to a friend
  • 00:47:27
    who they're actually creating a virtual
  • 00:47:29
    space
  • 00:47:30
    um for for students
  • 00:47:34
    not a kid like it's not dissimilar from
  • 00:47:36
    second life for like
  • 00:47:39
    the academic perspective and like studio
  • 00:47:43
    so cool so i there's definitely
  • 00:47:46
    like people out there that are pushing
  • 00:47:48
    kind of
  • 00:47:49
    um even where we're headed from a
  • 00:47:51
    digital practice standpoint
  • 00:47:53
    right i don't know if you've heard of um
  • 00:47:55
    seth godin's
  • 00:47:56
    alt mba i have yeah
  • 00:47:59
    and so their model is like
  • 00:48:03
    everyone who's in the class is
  • 00:48:05
    participating like everyone has their
  • 00:48:07
    webcam turned on
  • 00:48:09
    so that it is really like being in a
  • 00:48:12
    classroom because
  • 00:48:13
    you know it doesn't work if you just
  • 00:48:15
    play a recording
  • 00:48:16
    or just do a one-way zoom call right
  • 00:48:19
    right absolutely um and
  • 00:48:22
    you even see this happening in firms
  • 00:48:24
    more right like we had video
  • 00:48:26
    conferencing
  • 00:48:27
    capabilities so long ago but even even
  • 00:48:29
    in go to meetings and zoom
  • 00:48:31
    like rarely would anybody actually turn
  • 00:48:33
    on their video cameras
  • 00:48:34
    so like you know so the pandemic has
  • 00:48:37
    kind of perpetuated at least
  • 00:48:39
    at least seeing everyone's face like on
  • 00:48:42
    the other end of a video conference
  • 00:48:44
    rather than
  • 00:48:45
    the agenda or just the presentation that
  • 00:48:47
    you're presenting
  • 00:48:49
    and the way that people are learning is
  • 00:48:51
    very different too
  • 00:48:52
    yeah absolutely i think it's going to
  • 00:48:54
    democratize architecture
  • 00:48:57
    hopefully yeah that would be a good
  • 00:49:00
    thing
  • 00:49:01
    yeah yeah and it kind of goes back to
  • 00:49:05
    you talking about your role as a teacher
  • 00:49:08
    right i mean i think like what you're
  • 00:49:11
    doing with the podcast and the videos i
  • 00:49:13
    think that's
  • 00:49:14
    probably like a more effective way of
  • 00:49:17
    teaching
  • 00:49:17
    younger people in some ways than like
  • 00:49:19
    the role of the studio instructor
  • 00:49:24
    that's i i mean i appreciate that view
  • 00:49:27
    so thank you um
  • 00:49:30
    yeah i i mean i've never really looked
  • 00:49:32
    at myself that way maybe
  • 00:49:34
    maybe i should but i i've definitely
  • 00:49:36
    especially now tried to make myself
  • 00:49:37
    available for people that have had
  • 00:49:39
    questions about career switching and
  • 00:49:41
    um and just my own path and and
  • 00:49:44
    and the next steps that they should take
  • 00:49:48
    sorry okay do you have any final tips
  • 00:49:51
    for
  • 00:49:52
    young architects um
  • 00:49:55
    no just just hang in there i get i don't
  • 00:49:58
    know hang in there
  • 00:50:00
    so one of the one of the things that i
  • 00:50:02
    really
  • 00:50:03
    um love about my current employer um
  • 00:50:06
    and by no me no means am i trying to
  • 00:50:09
    commercialize this
  • 00:50:10
    but um what so one of the things
  • 00:50:13
    that so slack orientation for one was
  • 00:50:17
    it's like a it's like a half week long
  • 00:50:19
    event
  • 00:50:20
    um we're also on boarding like 20 new
  • 00:50:22
    people a week
  • 00:50:23
    like like which coming from an
  • 00:50:26
    architectural world like i can't
  • 00:50:27
    imagine a firm on 20 people a week
  • 00:50:31
    um so we have a very intense orientation
  • 00:50:34
    program but one of the things that they
  • 00:50:35
    say
  • 00:50:36
    the first day that resonates that i wish
  • 00:50:38
    more architecture firms would say
  • 00:50:41
    um and if they aren't saying it to you
  • 00:50:43
    um
  • 00:50:44
    i hope it doesn't silence your voice at
  • 00:50:46
    all is that you
  • 00:50:47
    your life experiences makes you a
  • 00:50:50
    contributor from day one
  • 00:50:52
    so speak up um
  • 00:50:55
    have a voice have an opinion um if you
  • 00:50:58
    find yourself at a firm that doesn't
  • 00:51:01
    allow you to do that then maybe you
  • 00:51:03
    haven't landed at the right firm and you
  • 00:51:05
    should
  • 00:51:06
    take that into consideration um
  • 00:51:09
    but uh but there are definitely firms
  • 00:51:12
    out there
  • 00:51:12
    there that are that are willing to give
  • 00:51:14
    you a voice from day one and i think
  • 00:51:16
    that's important
  • 00:51:17
    i'm i learn a lot from
  • 00:51:20
    from the younger people that i talk to
  • 00:51:22
    it's sad to think that i'm on the older
  • 00:51:23
    end
  • 00:51:24
    of things these days but um yeah i i
  • 00:51:26
    learned it a lot and respect
  • 00:51:28
    respect that so i appreciate the
  • 00:51:31
    incoming generation and the voice that
  • 00:51:33
    they bring to the table
  • 00:51:35
    yeah and i think it's also the strength
  • 00:51:37
    of the firms from the older generation
  • 00:51:39
    to
  • 00:51:40
    um be more dynamic and change to
  • 00:51:45
    the way that younger people are doing
  • 00:51:46
    things so what did you think about the
  • 00:51:49
    interview
  • 00:51:50
    i would really love to hear your
  • 00:51:51
    thoughts in the comments
  • 00:51:53
    uh you can find resources and really
  • 00:51:56
    insightful articles
  • 00:51:57
    at www.practiceofarchitecture.com
  • 00:52:01
    and you can also listen to their podcast
  • 00:52:04
    practice disrupted
  • 00:52:06
    where they interview industry leaders
  • 00:52:08
    and
  • 00:52:09
    explore technology and cultural shifts
  • 00:52:13
    getting you to think about how you can
  • 00:52:14
    adjust your career
  • 00:52:16
    and your your practice to some of these
  • 00:52:20
    emerging trends practice of architecture
  • 00:52:23
    also just recently launched a
  • 00:52:25
    career assist program with an
  • 00:52:27
    organization called teal
  • 00:52:29
    where they help people wanting to
  • 00:52:32
    transition into
  • 00:52:33
    new career roles if you enjoy this video
  • 00:52:37
    please leave me a thumbs up and i would
  • 00:52:40
    really love to hear your thoughts
  • 00:52:42
    in the comments below so that's it for
  • 00:52:45
    today
  • 00:52:46
    and i'll see you in the next one
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