Understanding the EU Deforestation Regulation & the role of geospatial data | Geo for Good 2023
Summary
TLDRThe video covers a panel discussion on the European Union Deforestation Regulation (EUDR), where experts discuss its implications and challenges. The EUDR mandates that commodities sold in the EU must not be linked to deforestation after December 2020. The panelists emphasize the complexities of mapping and verifying supply chains, the need for transparent data and methodologies, and the integration of geospatial data for effective compliance. They highlight the necessity of collaborative efforts from various stakeholders to meet regulatory demands without hampering economic operations.
Takeaways
- ๐ฟ The EUDR targets deforestation-free supply chains for goods entering the EU.
- ๐บ๏ธ Mapping and transparency are critical for EUDR compliance.
- ๐ Deforestation risk assessment is key, focusing on land status post-2020.
- ๐ Geospatial data aids in monitoring land use changes and ensuring compliance.
- ๐ผ Companies face challenges in integrating and verifying supply chain data.
- ๐ The regulation impacts global trade dynamics, especially in commodities.
- ๐ ๏ธ Technology solutions are needed for tracking and transparency.
- ๐ค Collaboration among stakeholders is crucial for effective implementation.
- ๐ Transparent methodologies enhance credibility and compliance.
- โ๏ธ Ethical and economic considerations influence how the regulation is enforced.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
Alicia Sullivan introduces a panel discussing the EU Deforestation Regulation (EUDR) and its relevance to businesses selling into the EU. Starting in 2024, these companies must demonstrate their products weren't grown on deforested land post-December 2020. The session is divided into expert talks, a panel discussion, and audience questions.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Remi D'Annunzio outlines the compliance process for the EUDR, focusing on the responsibilities of operators to ensure products are deforestation-free and track geolocation data of farms. Discussions also cover regulation texts and FAQs published by the EU Commission to facilitate understanding.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Remi continues by detailing the benchmark system for assessing countries' risk levels: standard, low, or high. This determines the percentage of compliance information to be monitored by EU importing countriesโhigher percentages for high-risk countries. He also describes ongoing efforts for creating a digital public infrastructure with partners like USAID, WRI, and Google.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Tasso Azevedo emphasizes understanding the scope of application to ensure compliance with EUDR, especially for regions like Brazil's Cerrado where deforestation occurs on non-forest land as defined by the EUDR. He suggests adopting a regional, crop-specific risk classification approach and highlights land use change assessments and traceability challenges.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Tasso continues to explain methods for deforestation assessment and traceability using probabilistic tools. He presents ideas for mass balance control and property-wide assessments to simplify compliance, noting that precise tracking could be impractical.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Pierrick Rambaud of Louis Dreyfus Company describes the immense challenges in mapping supply chains and obtaining precise land geometries needed for EUDR compliance. He underscores the importance of standardization, accurate data gathering, and the high costs associated with using high-resolution imagery for deforestation risk assessment.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Bobby Pinter from NGIS discusses the role of geospatial tools like Tracemark in managing the complexities surrounding EUDR compliance, particularly the aggregation of commodity sources and ensuring deforestation-free certifications amid operational challenges among supply chains such as coffee.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Evan Tachovsky from WRI discusses the importance of digital public infrastructure, tailored applications, and community building to support the EUDR. He stresses the need for open infrastructures for global compliance and preventing unintended negative consequences while maintaining transparency in solutions.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
During the panel discussion, experts highlight gaps in compliance, ambiguities in regulations, and the necessity for transparency in methodologies used by commercial providers. They also emphasize the need for property-level assessments and simpler compliance and monitoring strategies to avert deforestation.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
Questions from the audience reveal concerns about the feasibility of current compliance strategies and transparency requirements. Panel experts discuss potential simplifications, such as focusing on property rather than plot-based assessments to realistically manage deforestation risks under the EUDR.
- 00:50:00 - 00:59:18
Audience concerns also focus on the regulation's approach to transparency and compliance processes, highlighting the need for industry-wide cooperation and clear guidance from regulatory bodies to streamline efforts in recognizing and preventing deforestation effectively.
Mind Map
Video Q&A
What is the EU Deforestation Regulation (EUDR)?
The EUDR is a regulation set to be implemented starting in 2024, requiring companies that sell goods into the EU to prove that these goods were not grown on land deforested after December 2020.
What are the main challenges in complying with the EUDR?
Main challenges include mapping supply chains accurately, integrating geospatial data for tracking deforestation, and establishing transparent reporting methodologies.
What role do commercial data providers play in EUDR compliance?
Commercial data providers offer tools and data sets for monitoring deforestation and risk assessment, but their methodologies need to be transparent and scientifically robust to be credible.
How is deforestation risk determined according to the EUDR?
Deforestation risk is determined by verifying if the land was forested in 2020 and ensuring that current commodities do not originate from newly deforested land. Precision in geospatial data is crucial.
What are "commodities" in the context of EUDR?
Commodities refer to the main goods like coffee, cocoa, or soybeans that are tracked for potential deforestation impacts according to legislation.
What happens if a product is found to be linked to deforestation?
If a product is linked to deforestation after 2020, it may be prevented from entering the EU market, potentially affecting the entire supply chain from that source.
What are the penalties for non-compliance with the EUDR?
Non-compliance could lead to shipping delays and detainment of goods by EU countries, as they have the right to stop containers for verification.
How does the EUDR impact global markets?
It could significantly alter how supply chains operate, potentially excluding deforestation-linked products from entering European markets and incentivizing sustainable practices.
Why is transparency important for EUDR compliance?
Transparency in methodologies and data used for compliance is crucial to ensure credibility and trust in the reported findings, facilitating smoother regulatory approval processes.
What technologies can assist in EUDR compliance?
Technologies like satellite imagery, blockchain for traceability, and digital platforms for data integration play integral roles in ensuring compliance.
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- 00:00:00[MUSIC PLAYING]
- 00:00:02
- 00:00:15ALICIA SULLIVAN: All right.
- 00:00:16Hey, everyone, I'm Alicia Sullivan.
- 00:00:17I'm a product manager on Earth Engine.
- 00:00:19And I'm really excited to have a panel, here, today,
- 00:00:22to talk about understanding the EU Deforestation
- 00:00:25Regulation and the Role of Geospatial Data.
- 00:00:28Can you all hear me OK?
- 00:00:30OK, great.
- 00:00:31Awesome.
- 00:00:33So we have an amazing panel, here,
- 00:00:35that are going to talk, here, very shortly--
- 00:00:37our experts across the space, both from industry,
- 00:00:41non-profits, et cetera.
- 00:00:44So to start with, I want to just really very briefly touch
- 00:00:47on the EUDR.
- 00:00:48I know Remi is going to be talking about this.
- 00:00:50But starting in 2024, companies that
- 00:00:53sell goods, into the European Union,
- 00:00:55are required to prove that these goods were not grown on land
- 00:00:58deforested after December of 2020,
- 00:01:00which is a very large commitment and things--
- 00:01:04and will be difficult for some companies to meet.
- 00:01:06So we're trying to work together to understand how we can help
- 00:01:11companies meet this compliance.
- 00:01:13And these organizations, that will be represented today,
- 00:01:16will be speaking to that.
- 00:01:18As part of the EUDR, there are seven key commodities
- 00:01:22that are--
- 00:01:22and their derivatives that are part of the legislation.
- 00:01:25You can see them up here.
- 00:01:27And the main industries that are impacted
- 00:01:29are, of course, consumer packaged goods,
- 00:01:32retail, furniture, automotive, et cetera.
- 00:01:36So real quickly, today's session,
- 00:01:38we're going to have three parts.
- 00:01:39We're going to hear from our experts.
- 00:01:41They'll have five minutes, each, to speak
- 00:01:42about their perspective.
- 00:01:45We're going to have a quick panel discussion.
- 00:01:47And then open up questions to the audience.
- 00:01:50So with that, let's get started.
- 00:01:52Remi, would you like to come on up.
- 00:01:55REMI D'ANNUNZIO: Thank you.
- 00:01:56Thank you, Alicia.
- 00:01:57Hi, everybody.
- 00:01:59So I'm going to give a really brief introduction to the EU
- 00:02:06Regulation Deforestation and the role
- 00:02:08that FAO is playing in it, somehow.
- 00:02:12I think my question was, what's known about the process
- 00:02:14to be compliant today and what's the role
- 00:02:16of Earth observation and data?
- 00:02:20So I try to put-- so first of all,
- 00:02:23the text of the regulation, itself,
- 00:02:25is fully public, fully available.
- 00:02:27And I encourage you to read it, because it's actually--
- 00:02:29it's long.
- 00:02:30But it's extremely detailed and extremely information-full.
- 00:02:34And there's also, associated to it, a regular,
- 00:02:37Frequently Asked Questions section,
- 00:02:39that is published by the European Commission, that
- 00:02:41is making it easier to read.
- 00:02:43And it's only 20 pages.
- 00:02:45So it really makes it simpler.
- 00:02:47So probably every-- if I have any answers
- 00:02:50to the questions that are asked today,
- 00:02:51I picked them up, already, in the FAQ.
- 00:02:53So I encourage you to read it.
- 00:02:56So I wanted to put some main compliance points.
- 00:03:00The first is the responsibility, on the regulation
- 00:03:04and compliance, is fully on the operators.
- 00:03:07It's not on the countries.
- 00:03:08It's not on the governments.
- 00:03:09It's on the operators that are proposing products
- 00:03:12into the market.
- 00:03:13
- 00:03:17Key things-- the deforestation, for the regulation,
- 00:03:24means conversions to agricultural land use.
- 00:03:27And degradation means conversions,
- 00:03:29of primary or naturally regenerated forests,
- 00:03:32into plantations.
- 00:03:33And that's that.
- 00:03:34And so you've seen all the agricultural commodities,
- 00:03:37they should not be deforestation--
- 00:03:40with any deforestation.
- 00:03:41And timber should not be with degradation.
- 00:03:46There is something around the geolocation.
- 00:03:48So what is compliant is that all the operators must submit
- 00:03:53the geolocation information, from each farm,
- 00:03:57from where any of the products that enter the market
- 00:03:59come from.
- 00:04:00That's relatively straightforward.
- 00:04:02One thing that is also very important
- 00:04:04is that it should be deforestation-free and legal
- 00:04:07as per the legislation of the country where it comes from.
- 00:04:10And this has not been tackled a lot yet.
- 00:04:13And the cutoff date, we talked about that.
- 00:04:16What's important to remember is that there is no commodity ban.
- 00:04:20There's no country ban, whatever the benchmarking
- 00:04:22system will be.
- 00:04:25There is a benchmarking system, which
- 00:04:29will be interesting to follow in the coming months,
- 00:04:33because it's not published yet.
- 00:04:34So we don't know, yet, what the list of countries
- 00:04:36that are considered standard, low, or high risk.
- 00:04:39But those countries that will be considered standard, low,
- 00:04:42or high risk will have, from the importers,
- 00:04:45from the European countries that get the compliance
- 00:04:48information to them--
- 00:04:51the products that come from standard countries
- 00:04:53will be monitored 3% of the compliance information.
- 00:04:59And the low risk will be lowered down to 1%.
- 00:05:02And high risk will be higher, to 9%.
- 00:05:04So it doesn't mean anything on the operators.
- 00:05:07It means something on the amount of data
- 00:05:09that will be checked by the importing countries.
- 00:05:12And it's important.
- 00:05:13And the European Commission has been trying
- 00:05:15to push the message on this.
- 00:05:17I don't know how long five minutes is.
- 00:05:19But--
- 00:05:20[LAUGHTER]
- 00:05:23--I have like another two minutes?
- 00:05:25ALICIA SULLIVAN: Yes.
- 00:05:25REMI D'ANNUNZIO: OK.
- 00:05:26I just wanted to really briefly talk about that.
- 00:05:28So I'm working in FAO, in the forestry division
- 00:05:31I'm technical lead on the Forest Data Partnership, which
- 00:05:35is funded by USAID and the US State Department,
- 00:05:38with WRI leading, FAO co-leading.
- 00:05:40And we have the immense chance to be partnering,
- 00:05:44with NASA surveyor inside, with Google and, in particular,
- 00:05:48with the Earth Engine team, and with Unilever,
- 00:05:51as a first partner.
- 00:05:53And within the Forest Data Partnership,
- 00:05:56we've been in contact with a dialogue platform called
- 00:06:01DIASCA, that is led by a German corporation and now
- 00:06:07the European Commission, talking about forest monitoring
- 00:06:10and traceability and legality schemes and solutions.
- 00:06:13And we have just received a green light
- 00:06:15to go ahead with the proposal for a digital public
- 00:06:19infrastructure prototype.
- 00:06:21That will be done in collaboration
- 00:06:23with AgStack, who have developed a asset registry.
- 00:06:26I can talk about what the asset registry means.
- 00:06:28But it's basically it's an index system based on the S2 index
- 00:06:32system from Google.
- 00:06:33And that provides basically unique GeoIDs.
- 00:06:36And they've asked us to basically construct
- 00:06:41that line of infrastructure to provide information,
- 00:06:46minimal information, that can be public
- 00:06:48and that can be completely open for anybody.
- 00:06:50And that will probably mean either third-party verification
- 00:06:52or importing countries to have tools,
- 00:06:54at hand, to verify the information that's
- 00:06:56coming in the line.
- 00:06:59I'll be happy to develop furthermore,
- 00:07:00but I just wanted to tell you that this
- 00:07:03is something that's ongoing.
- 00:07:04And more important than the money associated to it,
- 00:07:08what's important is that we've got the mandate, from the EC,
- 00:07:11to develop this, which is sometimes
- 00:07:13extremely tricky to have.
- 00:07:14So we're really happy to move this forward.
- 00:07:16And yeah, we're going to have a collaboration with
- 00:07:19[? Ground, ?] here, from Google, and with the team
- 00:07:22of [? Gino. ?] The AgStack solution, of course,
- 00:07:24is going to be powered by Earth Engine, somehow.
- 00:07:26And this is going to come with the mandate of DIASCA.
- 00:07:29So I'll finish here.
- 00:07:30And I'm really happy to go forward with the questions.
- 00:07:33[APPLAUSE]
- 00:07:38ALICIA SULLIVAN: All right.
- 00:07:40Tasso.
- 00:07:41TASSO AZEVEDO: Good.
- 00:07:42
- 00:07:45Four things-- these are the four things that we think
- 00:07:50will be key for us to contribute to this discussion using
- 00:07:58the tools that we are preparing.
- 00:08:00So first one is defining what's the scope of application.
- 00:08:04Because it refers to forests, basically, at this point,
- 00:08:08and so you have to check out where
- 00:08:10this will be really applied.
- 00:08:12The second is this whole thing about classifying the risk
- 00:08:16of the country or region.
- 00:08:17So we have kind of an idea of how this could be done,
- 00:08:23not just classifying the whole country
- 00:08:25but thinking on something different.
- 00:08:27Then, obviously, the land use change assessment post 2020.
- 00:08:32And one or two ideas for the traceability,
- 00:08:35which is not exactly what we are working, right now,
- 00:08:39but it can be used.
- 00:08:40Good.
- 00:08:41So for the applications?
- 00:08:45We did a quick view on this, which
- 00:08:48is you need to know where is the forest,
- 00:08:53right, according to the definition,
- 00:08:55in this case, the definition of FAO.
- 00:08:57I think later on, we will have non-wood--
- 00:09:01no, other woodlands, right?
- 00:09:03And then we still are missing the no wood environments,
- 00:09:08right?
- 00:09:09And so why this is important?
- 00:09:10Because, if you see this map, like in the middle,
- 00:09:14you have everything that was forest in 2020.
- 00:09:18In Brazil, we have the classification
- 00:09:21that would be equivalent to the FAO classification of forest.
- 00:09:24And the other one is everything else
- 00:09:26that is not considered forest but is native vegetation also.
- 00:09:30A lot of the Cerrado, for example,
- 00:09:32will be out of this definition.
- 00:09:34So 30% of the deforestation happens on that area.
- 00:09:41But 50% of the conversion for cropland, for example,
- 00:09:45is happening there.
- 00:09:47So basically, by this definition,
- 00:09:4950% of the deforestation or, as you
- 00:09:53say, loss of natural habitats for crops will be simply out.
- 00:10:01And most of the soybean, for example,
- 00:10:03would be out, because they are basically
- 00:10:04being converted in this area.
- 00:10:06So that's why it's very important
- 00:10:07to have this good definition of the scope.
- 00:10:12Second is the classification of risk.
- 00:10:15So there is two things that can be done.
- 00:10:18One is using the historical land cover, land use maps.
- 00:10:22And we have MapBiomas to track what happens
- 00:10:26on the last 10, 15 years or so.
- 00:10:28So you understand how much deforestation
- 00:10:31you have on those areas.
- 00:10:34So for example, in this case here, it's
- 00:10:37the crop land, in general, like in the Cerrado.
- 00:10:41So what you see there is that 35% of the increase
- 00:10:45in cropland, between 2010 and 2020, in the Cerrado,
- 00:10:49was actually on areas that were natural habitats before.
- 00:10:55And forest is the two parts up there.
- 00:11:00So this is a way to have an idea of how much deforestation
- 00:11:04you have on those areas.
- 00:11:06The other thing is that we have these Annual Deforestation
- 00:11:09Reports, which access the potential illegality
- 00:11:13of every single deforestation in Brazil on the last four years.
- 00:11:16So you can have an idea of how much commitments, with rules,
- 00:11:22you have on those areas.
- 00:11:24So for example, if you have an area where people are really
- 00:11:26following the law, if you say that you can't do something,
- 00:11:30it will not be done, right?
- 00:11:31That's more or less the idea.
- 00:11:33But if you are in a region that everybody
- 00:11:35is playing with illegality, you don't
- 00:11:38expect that they will just follow
- 00:11:40the rules because somebody said that they have to do it, right?
- 00:11:42So that's a good way to assess risk.
- 00:11:44And so I think that the way we should translate this
- 00:11:47is that you take a country, like Brazil, which is very big.
- 00:11:49It's not something that you say, look,
- 00:11:51Brazil is all in one place or another place.
- 00:11:53Actually, this varies a lot by crop and by region.
- 00:11:57So the way we see this is that this should evolve
- 00:12:01to something like crops products or commodities versus regions,
- 00:12:07for example.
- 00:12:08So if you take the Amazon, palm oil, cocoa, coffee, and rubber,
- 00:12:13it's definitely very low risk--
- 00:12:17definitely low risk.
- 00:12:19But wood, soy, and cattle will be very high risk.
- 00:12:23And if you go to the Cerrado, wood is not high risk.
- 00:12:26It would be like standard and so on.
- 00:12:29So the idea is that we should think about that a little bit
- 00:12:33more--
- 00:12:34
- 00:12:38with a little more detail than just, say,
- 00:12:41one country is one place and the other place.
- 00:12:44This is very important, for the incentive, for the people
- 00:12:47to do the right thing.
- 00:12:48Because if you put everybody together, in one spot,
- 00:12:51you make everyone complain.
- 00:12:53And if you say that these are different,
- 00:12:55you have those guys, that are kind of on the blue,
- 00:12:58they will be cheering, for the whole room, on the other side.
- 00:13:02So that's very important for the implementation.
- 00:13:04Yeah.
- 00:13:05This is for the land cover.
- 00:13:07So using the maps, the land cover,
- 00:13:10land use maps that we have, you can identify all change,
- 00:13:18for any direction and for the different types of crops
- 00:13:21or commodities, over the time, for each property, if you want.
- 00:13:27So the deforestation specifically--
- 00:13:30I'm not talking about degradation
- 00:13:32but deforestation, specifically, since we have reports
- 00:13:35on every single deforestation, a report like this
- 00:13:38for every single deforestation that
- 00:13:40happens in Brazil, since January 2019,
- 00:13:44you can locate every deforestation
- 00:13:46on the properties.
- 00:13:47So basically, if you have a property,
- 00:13:50you would know if there is a deforestation there.
- 00:13:52And there is this question whether the application
- 00:13:55of the law is related to the area that you actually claim
- 00:13:58that you plant or the property.
- 00:14:00I must say the only way to make this
- 00:14:02happen is if you consider the property.
- 00:14:04That's the only way you can manage this properly.
- 00:14:08So if you have a deforestation, in the property, after 2020,
- 00:14:13sorry, you don't qualify for [INAUDIBLE]
- 00:14:16because it's too difficult to go beyond that
- 00:14:18in terms of control.
- 00:14:20Yeah.
- 00:14:20And so this is the report, how it does.
- 00:14:22And lastly, for the traceability,
- 00:14:27there is many things on traceability there.
- 00:14:29But, here, we're focusing on things
- 00:14:31that will help you, in large scale,
- 00:14:34to understand if the things make sense or not
- 00:14:36in terms of where the products come from.
- 00:14:42So the first thing is to estimate
- 00:14:43the potential production, of that commodity,
- 00:14:46in a specific property.
- 00:14:50So you check.
- 00:14:50You see the map.
- 00:14:51How much is the cropland that you have there?
- 00:14:53And then you can estimate, oh, it's between this and that,
- 00:14:56that you could have.
- 00:14:56So nobody can claim that they are selling, I don't know,
- 00:14:59five times what you could on that property.
- 00:15:01Because that's a legal property comparing to others,
- 00:15:04for example.
- 00:15:05And the other one is the viability
- 00:15:07of the product to get to a specific processing plant.
- 00:15:10So it's basically, say, you are here, and then
- 00:15:13the guy is saying that he is buying this property,
- 00:15:15from 500 kilometers away.
- 00:15:17This product?
- 00:15:18Forget it.
- 00:15:19That's totally unviable to bring this product
- 00:15:21to the other place.
- 00:15:22So you can kind of--
- 00:15:25And this is not just a radial, right?
- 00:15:27This is really the path.
- 00:15:29So it's finding paths that will give you mileage.
- 00:15:32And this is varied for infrastructure, distance,
- 00:15:34weather, and so on.
- 00:15:35So these are four ways in which we
- 00:15:38can contribute with geo, maps, and et cetera for this thing.
- 00:15:41And let's make it happen, because it makes a difference
- 00:15:44in terms of deforestation.
- 00:15:47[APPLAUSE]
- 00:15:50ALICIA SULLIVAN: All right.
- 00:15:51Now, Pierrick.
- 00:15:53
- 00:16:00PIERRICK RAMBAUD: Is it working?
- 00:16:01Yeah.
- 00:16:01Perfect.
- 00:16:02I would like to keep Tasso's energy,
- 00:16:03but, with this microphone, I will still
- 00:16:06be in contact with the sound.
- 00:16:08Pierrick Rambaud.
- 00:16:09So I'm working for LDC.
- 00:16:11I know that the crowd is mostly scientists in this conference.
- 00:16:13So before I start, who knows Louis Dreyfus Company
- 00:16:16in the room?
- 00:16:18OK, thank you very much.
- 00:16:19For all the people that doesn't know it,
- 00:16:20it makes my two first slides useful.
- 00:16:24So LDC is a French merchant, on agricultural goods,
- 00:16:30that started working in 1851, so long before I was born.
- 00:16:36We employ around 17,000 employees on 10 platforms.
- 00:16:40I will explain what platforms are, afterward.
- 00:16:43We shipped 80 million tons of commodity,
- 00:16:47on average, annually for a total net sales of $59.9 billion US--
- 00:16:53that's a lot of money--
- 00:16:54in more than 100 countries, over 6 geographic regions.
- 00:16:59So if there's one thing you need to remember,
- 00:17:01we are in the agricultural game for a long time.
- 00:17:04We sell lots of things everywhere.
- 00:17:08So platforms?
- 00:17:09So we have different platforms to actually structure
- 00:17:11the company.
- 00:17:12So some of them are actually commodities-- coffee,
- 00:17:14cotton, food and feed solutions, grains and oilseed, juice,
- 00:17:19rice, and sugar.
- 00:17:20And if you listen carefully to the other speakers,
- 00:17:22you realize that coffee and grains and oilseeds are
- 00:17:26actually-- focusing on EUDR--
- 00:17:29directly challenged by the regulation.
- 00:17:31We have transversal platforms, carbon solutions,
- 00:17:34and global markets, and freight, which
- 00:17:37is dealing with all the vessels that
- 00:17:39are shipping the commodities all over the world.
- 00:17:44This is, more or less, the workflow
- 00:17:46that we need to actually be compliant with EUDR.
- 00:17:49So if anyone, after my presentation,
- 00:17:52have a solution that is, at scale, at countries,
- 00:17:54for any countries and any commodities, please,
- 00:17:57come with us.
- 00:17:58We want you in our team.
- 00:17:59[LAUGHTER]
- 00:18:01So the first step is actually mapping your supply chain.
- 00:18:05That's the first real issue.
- 00:18:07Because mapping your supply chain
- 00:18:08means that you are actually aggregating
- 00:18:10national and partner databases.
- 00:18:12Everything is inconsistent.
- 00:18:14Everything is set differently, so you
- 00:18:17need to align all the metadata, make sure
- 00:18:19that it's actually describing what you want to see.
- 00:18:22And then you need to understand things that are actually
- 00:18:24not dealt by your company.
- 00:18:27So sometimes we bought things from someone else.
- 00:18:29And we need to understand his supply chain.
- 00:18:33Once you get your supply chain, you need to gather the plots.
- 00:18:36Because you know where the commodity is actually
- 00:18:38coming from.
- 00:18:39But you need to define the geometry.
- 00:18:41So as Remi was explaining, less than 4
- 00:18:42hectares, you need one point.
- 00:18:44More than 4 hectares, you need a polygon.
- 00:18:47So then a new nightmare starts.
- 00:18:49You're gathering, again, multiple inconsistent sources.
- 00:18:52What do we have?
- 00:18:53We have public database, cars and buses.
- 00:18:55We have geo-surveys.
- 00:18:57So we send people, on the field, to actually make
- 00:19:00the delineation of our geometries.
- 00:19:02And we have private providers that are just
- 00:19:04doing the same jobs for us.
- 00:19:06Once you get these geometries, you need to check them.
- 00:19:09Because you don't know.
- 00:19:11Are they the truth?
- 00:19:12Are they at the right place?
- 00:19:13Are they underwater bodies?
- 00:19:15You don't know at start.
- 00:19:17So first, you need to make these geometry assessments,
- 00:19:20making sure that they are actually describing the plot.
- 00:19:23And then you also need to check if the geometry in, itself, is
- 00:19:29making sense.
- 00:19:29So anyone that has actually dealt with geometry
- 00:19:32knows that a geometry can be broken.
- 00:19:35Like you track, with a GPS, the coordinates of your field.
- 00:19:39And for some reasons, the GPS just go backward from one point
- 00:19:43to another.
- 00:19:43And boom, your geometry is broken.
- 00:19:45And you cannot perform any analysis anymore.
- 00:19:48So all these checks need to be performed.
- 00:19:50You have your geometries.
- 00:19:52And now you start doing real Earth observation.
- 00:19:54So you need to identify what type of satellite imagery
- 00:19:59are actually useful for this analysis.
- 00:20:02So step one is to leverage public data sets,
- 00:20:05so that we can perform risk assessments, to know which
- 00:20:08countries or which administrative areas are
- 00:20:10actually higher risk.
- 00:20:11And this is where we will do the due diligence.
- 00:20:14And for that, it's still unclear what level of precision
- 00:20:18we need to reach.
- 00:20:19So we don't know if public data sets are sufficient.
- 00:20:21We don't know if we need to use some very high resolution data
- 00:20:24even for the risk assessment.
- 00:20:26So that's an open question.
- 00:20:27And the FAQ of the regulation will reopen soon.
- 00:20:30And that's the type of question that we will ask again.
- 00:20:34We also have questions about the revisiting period,
- 00:20:37because, if you have some commodities that
- 00:20:39are changing, from one year to another,
- 00:20:40you also need to remap your polygon.
- 00:20:43So you need to redo the analysis all over again.
- 00:20:47Identify satellite imagery-- you have your imagery.
- 00:20:50You have your plot.
- 00:20:51And now you're starting to do actual image analysis.
- 00:20:54So you have a field that has been analyzed in your risk
- 00:20:58assessment workflow.
- 00:21:00And it's flagged red.
- 00:21:02There is deforestation according to the forest
- 00:21:04data set, that you are using, for the cutting date.
- 00:21:08We don't want to discard all the fields that
- 00:21:11are set to red on a 10 meter resolution data set.
- 00:21:14Because if we do so, we will lose countless smallholders
- 00:21:18that will be flagged as deforested.
- 00:21:20So there we need to use very high resolution data,
- 00:21:23to perform a real change detection algorithm,
- 00:21:26to really understand if something
- 00:21:27happened on this field.
- 00:21:28And the problem with this very step
- 00:21:31is that the data, that we are using,
- 00:21:35are actually flagging, more or less, half of the fields
- 00:21:37that we are actually analyzing.
- 00:21:39So it means that half of the fields in the world
- 00:21:41need to be mapped with very high resolution data.
- 00:21:43And we need to perform this change detection algorithm
- 00:21:47on half of the fields in the world.
- 00:21:49So our problem, now, is really a commercial problem.
- 00:21:52Because the pricing of doing such an analysis
- 00:21:55is simply prohibitive, even for us, LDC,
- 00:21:58that is one of the big players in the agricultural market.
- 00:22:01So that's one huge issue that is not yet completely answered.
- 00:22:06And if you done everything, you know what field is actually
- 00:22:09deforested, what field is not deforested,
- 00:22:12you still have one step to actually manage,
- 00:22:15which is taking action.
- 00:22:16Because, OK, we know that this field is deforested.
- 00:22:18But what is going to happen to this farmer?
- 00:22:20So we have different options.
- 00:22:22The first one, of course, is just discard this farmer
- 00:22:26from the EU market, which leads to a segregation issue.
- 00:22:31When the goods are actually coming to the mills
- 00:22:33or to the crushing plants, you need
- 00:22:35to segregate it from the rest, so
- 00:22:36having a pile of bags of coffee that
- 00:22:39are EU compliant and another one that is EU non-compliant.
- 00:22:42And that's one of the key issue that we are
- 00:22:44facing within our supply chain.
- 00:22:47And we are still asking the European Commission
- 00:22:50if there will be any mitigation solutions so that farmers that
- 00:22:54have been removed from the European market
- 00:22:57could re-enter this market by performing some extra work
- 00:23:02replanting, regrowing on their deforested fields.
- 00:23:06So again, anyone that has this, please come to me.
- 00:23:09I will be super happy to discuss.
- 00:23:11
- 00:23:14[APPLAUSE]
- 00:23:17BOBBY PINTER: Yeah.
- 00:23:18Thank you.
- 00:23:19So I'm not going to pretend we have that,
- 00:23:21but that is the direction I think we are going is NGIS.
- 00:23:24So hopefully, I'll take everything
- 00:23:26you've seen, just now, and provide it
- 00:23:27in the context of a story on how we're
- 00:23:29trying to work with our customers and partners.
- 00:23:31So NGIS is an organization that's
- 00:23:33been partnered with Google for over 10 years.
- 00:23:35NGIS is an Australian geospatial consultancy.
- 00:23:38A lot of the work that we do, really,
- 00:23:40in partnership with Google, is focusing
- 00:23:42on making sure that Earth Engine and other geospatial tools
- 00:23:44are reaching customers and especially our joint customers.
- 00:23:47So there's really three areas in which
- 00:23:49we're partnered with Google.
- 00:23:50I'll go through these, fairly briefly,
- 00:23:51because we've got a lot to cover on the EUDR side.
- 00:23:53So we really think about solutions
- 00:23:55co-development and go-to-market.
- 00:23:56How do we take Earth Engine and some of these core technologies
- 00:23:58and bring them into the kinds of systems and workflows
- 00:24:01that organizations can use?
- 00:24:02We're also a Cloud Build, Sell & Service Partner.
- 00:24:04Not necessarily relevant to all of you in the room,
- 00:24:06but the idea is that we know what
- 00:24:07we're doing with Google Cloud, and we like to use as much
- 00:24:09of Google Cloud, as possible, in our solutions.
- 00:24:11And finally, we really think about ourselves
- 00:24:13as being aligned to Google's one gigaton goal.
- 00:24:15So we invest in some of the programs,
- 00:24:17like the Google Earth Engine Publisher
- 00:24:18Program, which you may have seen me present on,
- 00:24:20earlier, yesterday, and just other of these kinds
- 00:24:23of initiatives and really how we're partnering with Google.
- 00:24:25So a little bit about us and the things that we build.
- 00:24:28I'll be spending all of my time, really,
- 00:24:29today talking about Tracemark.
- 00:24:30And the idea is, really, in partnership with Google--
- 00:24:33and, actually, we are the implementation partner
- 00:24:35for some of the partnership work between Google and Unilever.
- 00:24:38Some of the work, that we're trying to accomplish,
- 00:24:39is around how do we actually build out
- 00:24:41those kinds of systems that were just
- 00:24:43explained in so much detail for these types of organizations.
- 00:24:45But I'm going to spend my time really
- 00:24:47talking about the complexities that organizations might face.
- 00:24:49And I'm going to use coffee as my main example.
- 00:24:51So a little bit about coffee.
- 00:24:53This is a space where I work in, quite frequently.
- 00:24:56So this is kind of close to my heart.
- 00:24:57But coffee is normally exported from a country of origin.
- 00:25:00It's normally processed.
- 00:25:01It's an unroasted bean.
- 00:25:02For those of you who are coffee nerds,
- 00:25:04this is often called a green bean or something else
- 00:25:05like that.
- 00:25:06So a coffee purchaser will purchase
- 00:25:08a number of different beans produced by farmers.
- 00:25:10And they're thinking about things like taste, quality,
- 00:25:12and varietal.
- 00:25:12
- 00:25:15Sorry, I skipped a slide there for a sec.
- 00:25:17So when you think about coffee, there's
- 00:25:19things like single origin, which you may have heard about.
- 00:25:21And there's other things like coffee blends.
- 00:25:22And I've made up this entire diagram,
- 00:25:24so don't assume this means anything in particular.
- 00:25:26But the idea is it's really comprised
- 00:25:28of a number of different beans that
- 00:25:29are trying to create a consistency and a flavor
- 00:25:31profile.
- 00:25:31If you're buying a bag of beans from the store,
- 00:25:33you want it to taste roughly the same every time.
- 00:25:35However, that's a challenge.
- 00:25:36We have smallholder farmers.
- 00:25:38There's hundreds of thousands of various coffee farmers, who
- 00:25:41might be in an overall ecosystem,
- 00:25:42so each lot, even if it's the same SKU,
- 00:25:45is going to have beans from different locations.
- 00:25:48And then roasting is normally done in a country of origin.
- 00:25:50So there's this massive aggregation problem.
- 00:25:52So if a company is buying a large number of beans
- 00:25:55and they're thinking about, OK, we've got a silo
- 00:25:57or we've got some other way of containing these beans that's
- 00:26:00thousands of pounds, that might be from thousands of locations.
- 00:26:03And when we think about that in the context EU deforestation,
- 00:26:05this really represents a sizable challenge.
- 00:26:08So really, the two parts of the deforestation regulation--
- 00:26:10this has been covered, already, a little bit now--
- 00:26:12is there's these two requirements that we're focused
- 00:26:15on--
- 00:26:15the geolocation of the plots of land and then
- 00:26:17also ensuring, that there's conclusive
- 00:26:18and verifiable information, that the products are
- 00:26:21deforestation-free.
- 00:26:21You've heard a lot about that, so no need
- 00:26:23to elaborate further.
- 00:26:24But in our opinion, this really highlights
- 00:26:26the crux of the problem, especially for an organization.
- 00:26:28They have to perform due diligence
- 00:26:30by combining their transactional data,
- 00:26:32around what beans are roasted as part of a given lot,
- 00:26:35where and when are those beans sourced within the supply
- 00:26:37chain, and then, also, those sustainability
- 00:26:40facts and insights around deforestation risk
- 00:26:42and other risks and social risks,
- 00:26:44really, around the ability to produce beans there.
- 00:26:47So I think this really highlights
- 00:26:48what we see as the problem.
- 00:26:49If your due diligence statement, for example,
- 00:26:51covers 10,000 pounds of beans, and it turns out
- 00:26:55that one of those sources is no good,
- 00:26:58many of these organizations are saying,
- 00:26:59we may have to just throw out the entire 10,000 pounds.
- 00:27:02Because the way that the regulation is written
- 00:27:04is, unless you can properly keep that verified,
- 00:27:07we're talking about either massive loss,
- 00:27:09recall in some scenarios-- very costly scenarios
- 00:27:12that organizations are looking at to say,
- 00:27:13this is quite serious how business will be run,
- 00:27:16the risk of having to go through these very expensive
- 00:27:19operational challenges.
- 00:27:20Entirely unrelated to the science, itself, just how would
- 00:27:23an organization pull back 10,000 pounds of beans
- 00:27:26or throw out entire shipping containers worth of beans.
- 00:27:29This is the scope and the magnitude
- 00:27:31of the business challenge.
- 00:27:32So we see our opportunity as saying,
- 00:27:34take this amazing scientific community and the other folks,
- 00:27:36who are, here, working on what is the definition of forest,
- 00:27:39how do we know what deforestation is and isn't, and
- 00:27:42bring some of that complexity in a way that's
- 00:27:44a little bit simpler for these organizations
- 00:27:46to bring together.
- 00:27:47So helping them focus on how do we
- 00:27:49take our transactional data, our view of the problem,
- 00:27:52and then marry that with the science and the sustainability
- 00:27:54insights that we're bringing together.
- 00:27:56So some of the areas that we're focused on, today.
- 00:27:58As mentioned, we're working with Unilever.
- 00:28:00So we're doing a lot in the palm oil related space.
- 00:28:02We're in fairly advanced conversations across a number
- 00:28:05of these different commodities.
- 00:28:06This is an evolving problem.
- 00:28:07There is a lot of things that we're bringing today,
- 00:28:10in how we work and partner with organizations
- 00:28:12to create UIs and dashboards and take advantage of that science.
- 00:28:15But we see ourselves, over the next year,
- 00:28:17really making sure that this effort is done, in partnership,
- 00:28:19both on the science side, around making sure we're bringing
- 00:28:22in the right map layers and the data products
- 00:28:24that you've already heard about, for the last 10 or so minutes.
- 00:28:26But then making sure that we work with enterprises
- 00:28:28around-- how will you actually take this data
- 00:28:30and make it useful and hopefully avoid
- 00:28:31some of these really negative business
- 00:28:33outcomes that we've spent some time on already.
- 00:28:35So thank you so much for the time.
- 00:28:36I'm looking forward to more conversation.
- 00:28:38[APPLAUSE]
- 00:28:43EVAN TACHOVSKY: Hey, everybody.
- 00:28:44My name is Evan Tachovsky.
- 00:28:45I'm the global director of the Data Lab at WRI.
- 00:28:48I'm a data scientist by training.
- 00:28:49I'm not a policy person.
- 00:28:51So I'm going to talk to you, today, a little bit about what
- 00:28:52we can do, as a technical community,
- 00:28:54to support all of this important work you've seen here.
- 00:28:56So many of you will actually work
- 00:28:58on projects and organizations and teams that work directly
- 00:29:00on EUDR.
- 00:29:01But many more of you will build technology or train people,
- 00:29:04train students, and work with others who will go on
- 00:29:07to carry on this legacy.
- 00:29:08And so I wanted to talk a little bit
- 00:29:09about what we can do, as a community,
- 00:29:10to actually make sure that we have
- 00:29:12the geospatial infrastructure tools
- 00:29:15and support to actually implement and follow
- 00:29:16through on this.
- 00:29:17So at WRI, of course, we have teams that produce data layers,
- 00:29:21teams that produce platforms, and teams that work directly
- 00:29:24with a number of companies in similar ways
- 00:29:26that others described here.
- 00:29:28But when we think about the next generation of tools,
- 00:29:30there are three things that we're actually
- 00:29:31shifting towards.
- 00:29:32So the first is not just platforms but open
- 00:29:35infrastructure.
- 00:29:36This is key and was highlighted in Remi's.
- 00:29:38The digital public infrastructure
- 00:29:40to enable a whole bunch of other platforms to work
- 00:29:43is more important than just the success of one platform.
- 00:29:47When you get into this, we have, I
- 00:29:48think, a strong view coming from the startup space
- 00:29:51that someone has to win the market.
- 00:29:52When you think about all the problems
- 00:29:54we're highlighting here, there isn't just one market.
- 00:29:56There's a million sort of submarkets
- 00:29:59and problems and areas.
- 00:30:01And so it's going to take a number of different solutions,
- 00:30:03solutions built, here, in Silicon Valley, but also
- 00:30:06solutions built in the global South.
- 00:30:08And our infrastructure, we believe,
- 00:30:10is what's needed to unlock that.
- 00:30:12So very specifically what does that mean?
- 00:30:13That means work today on foundational models
- 00:30:16is incredibly important for geospatial.
- 00:30:18Because those models will be what
- 00:30:20is needed for others, who maybe don't have access
- 00:30:22to the scale of compute or the training,
- 00:30:24to actually build models that work for their communities.
- 00:30:27And so if you're working on a foundational model,
- 00:30:29today, or you're working towards those efforts,
- 00:30:31you're helping us and future us work toward compliance
- 00:30:33with the EUDR.
- 00:30:34The second thing is we believe we're
- 00:30:37going more towards tailored apps and very specific use cases.
- 00:30:42I think in the Geo for Good community
- 00:30:43and the general Data for Good community,
- 00:30:46we've come from a place of big platforms.
- 00:30:48We have one at WRI.
- 00:30:49We have this thing called Resource Watch they're actually
- 00:30:50in the process of winding down and decommissioning.
- 00:30:53500 data sets, a million map layers, gidgets,
- 00:30:57gizmos everywhere, and the usage isn't there.
- 00:30:59I'll tell you honestly, the usage isn't there.
- 00:31:02Where is the usage?
- 00:31:03A very simple platform called GFW Pro,
- 00:31:06which is a version of our GFW that's
- 00:31:08made for the needs, the specific needs of commodity firms.
- 00:31:11And it's extremely simple in the functionality.
- 00:31:13It allows an API interface for folks
- 00:31:15to give us data on points, get back various information
- 00:31:18from GFW.
- 00:31:19And then there are other functionalities.
- 00:31:20But it's very simply focused on this.
- 00:31:22And the uptake we see with that is massive.
- 00:31:25Similarly, on the other end of the spectrum,
- 00:31:27we have a mobile application called Forest Watcher.
- 00:31:29And Forest Watcher is meant to put this information
- 00:31:31in the hands of people who are frontline forest
- 00:31:33defenders, journalists who might be investigating things,
- 00:31:36totally the other end of the spectrum from big consumer good
- 00:31:38companies.
- 00:31:39And that works for them, because it's in the size and shape
- 00:31:42and really tailored to their needs.
- 00:31:44Get some of the same information that folks
- 00:31:46are getting on GFW Pro but in a totally different package,
- 00:31:49totally different usability, and totally different languages,
- 00:31:52and a whole bunch of other things
- 00:31:53that actually make it really accessible.
- 00:31:54The third thing that we think is important,
- 00:31:56that we're shifting more towards,
- 00:31:57is community building and support.
- 00:32:00This law doesn't work and isn't equitable without actually
- 00:32:03building communities of folks, on the ground,
- 00:32:05who are benefiting from this regulation.
- 00:32:08This is in addition to being a massive important experiment
- 00:32:11for climate, this is one of the biggest economic experiments
- 00:32:14in the world.
- 00:32:15We're going into every supply chain, people's livelihoods,
- 00:32:18and changing things, significantly.
- 00:32:20And if we don't empower communities
- 00:32:22to understand this law, to understand their own data,
- 00:32:24to understand the things that we'll be asking them for,
- 00:32:27as a global community of people who
- 00:32:28work for big companies, people who work for big organizations,
- 00:32:31they'll be left out.
- 00:32:32And as the geospatial community, we
- 00:32:34have a profound tradition of making things better.
- 00:32:36But we also have made things worse.
- 00:32:39Way back in grad school, I did a lot of work
- 00:32:40on redlining in the US.
- 00:32:42And you see that applications of risk frameworks and things
- 00:32:45that are meant entirely perfectly in good stead.
- 00:32:49Redlining, here, in the US, was a sort of insurance framework.
- 00:32:52It's very straightforward.
- 00:32:54You need to have insurance.
- 00:32:55And so we need frameworks for that.
- 00:32:56But that led to unintended consequences of generations
- 00:32:59of disenfranchisement.
- 00:33:01And if we don't empower communities,
- 00:33:02we don't train communities and support communities,
- 00:33:04we're at risk of being well-intentioned but ultimately
- 00:33:07ending up with outcomes that I don't think anyone in this room
- 00:33:09would want.
- 00:33:09And so those three things--
- 00:33:11of course, we have the same sort of stuff
- 00:33:13we've always done at WRI.
- 00:33:14We publish reports, build tools.
- 00:33:16But increasingly shifting to public infrastructure,
- 00:33:19tailored apps, very specific things,
- 00:33:21and then building and supporting communities
- 00:33:22are where we're going.
- 00:33:23And I'm so excited to do that with all of you.
- 00:33:25So thanks.
- 00:33:26[APPLAUSE]
- 00:33:29ALICIA SULLIVAN: All right.
- 00:33:31Big thank you for everyone who spoke.
- 00:33:34So now we're going to-- and we go until 2:45, correct?
- 00:33:39OK, good.
- 00:33:40So let me find my notes, here.
- 00:33:42
- 00:33:46So we're going to have a panel.
- 00:33:47We're going to have a panel discussion.
- 00:33:49Where is my cursor?
- 00:33:50
- 00:33:55Oh, sorry, my cursor ran away.
- 00:34:00There it is.
- 00:34:02OK.
- 00:34:04Yeah.
- 00:34:06Why don't you guys come on up here.
- 00:34:07And we can have a quick discussion,
- 00:34:10and then we'll go to audience questions.
- 00:34:13And there's another microphone, there, on the table.
- 00:34:15PIERRICK RAMBAUD: Should I bring one?
- 00:34:17ALICIA SULLIVAN: Yeah.
- 00:34:17Or you guys can stand up here, either way.
- 00:34:19[LAUGHS] Awesome.
- 00:34:21Awesome.
- 00:34:21Awesome.
- 00:34:22
- 00:34:25That's totally fine.
- 00:34:28All right, so there's also another microphone, over there,
- 00:34:31on the table.
- 00:34:32Maybe, Remi, you can grab that.
- 00:34:35Great.
- 00:34:37REMI D'ANNUNZIO: Releasing a Marvel movie.
- 00:34:39ALICIA SULLIVAN: I know.
- 00:34:39I know.
- 00:34:40Thank you for being flexible, here.
- 00:34:42All right, so I have some questions.
- 00:34:45But I'm also happy to, if you guys have other questions
- 00:34:47for each other or things like that, that come up
- 00:34:50in the course of discussion, I'm happy to go off script a bit,
- 00:34:52as well.
- 00:34:53So the first question I have is, where
- 00:34:55do you think the biggest gap is, now, for companies
- 00:34:58that need to comply with this regulation?
- 00:35:00And I'd love for Pierrick and maybe Bobby to start with that.
- 00:35:03
- 00:35:06PIERRICK RAMBAUD: Is it?
- 00:35:07Yes, it's working.
- 00:35:09Biggest gap within this regulation, for us,
- 00:35:13is, A, the identification of the field geometries.
- 00:35:19That's the most difficult part.
- 00:35:21There are many data sets available with geometries
- 00:35:24that are predefined.
- 00:35:25And usually, they are actually always related
- 00:35:27to farms, farms that actually grow different commodities.
- 00:35:31And the EU regulation is commodity-based.
- 00:35:33So once you have--
- 00:35:35I was talking about CAR previously.
- 00:35:37So CAR is referencing all the farms in Brazil.
- 00:35:41Correct me if I'm wrong.
- 00:35:43And this is farm-related.
- 00:35:44So if you're growing different commodities,
- 00:35:46but you only actually want to get the specific delineation
- 00:35:50for soy, you need to go to this CAR number,
- 00:35:53split it again, manually or automatically,
- 00:35:56and identify each crop that exists within this field.
- 00:36:00And that's great, because Brazil have CAR.
- 00:36:03But there are many countries that have nothing.
- 00:36:05And there you're all alone with Earth observation
- 00:36:08automatic tools trying to find the fields within the forest.
- 00:36:11Because coffee is a shaded commodity.
- 00:36:14And it grows within other trees.
- 00:36:16So it looks exactly like forest.
- 00:36:18So that's the main gap for us.
- 00:36:22BOBBY PINTER: Yeah, I would say it's
- 00:36:24the same exact thing that we think about and we talk about.
- 00:36:27I think the challenge, especially from a larger
- 00:36:29organization perspective, is normally
- 00:36:31there's a number of different tiers in their supply chain.
- 00:36:34And they may have certain relationships
- 00:36:35to a certain point.
- 00:36:36And then they expect that their suppliers have
- 00:36:38to go talk to their suppliers.
- 00:36:40And you get this very convoluted game of telephone.
- 00:36:42And as you were mentioning, it's not necessarily
- 00:36:45a remote sensing solvable problem in all cases.
- 00:36:48Like there isn't going to be some capability that
- 00:36:50allows us to know.
- 00:36:51Just because I can see that it's a farm,
- 00:36:53from space, does not mean I know who they sell to.
- 00:36:56What happens when it goes into a shipping container
- 00:36:59or to some other facility?
- 00:37:00How does it actually reach those points in the supply chain?
- 00:37:03So the linkages is a big problem.
- 00:37:05I think the other part is going to be
- 00:37:06around the balancing of what is seen
- 00:37:11as a little bit of security and IP
- 00:37:13especially around sharing some of these sourcing locations.
- 00:37:16There's a bit of a dynamic shift that
- 00:37:19needs to happen in terms of engagement,
- 00:37:21with farmers and with those who are actually
- 00:37:23maintaining these areas.
- 00:37:25It's very difficult, right now, because you ask questions
- 00:37:27that they either don't understand why they're
- 00:37:29answering or they don't see enough value in answering
- 00:37:31some of the questions.
- 00:37:32Many companies have their own processes and certifications
- 00:37:35and surveys.
- 00:37:36So you're saying, how much effort
- 00:37:38do I have to go through in order to actually follow or check
- 00:37:42all the boxes in someone's various checklists?
- 00:37:44And it's a big administrative burden
- 00:37:46especially for these smaller organizations.
- 00:37:49So there's a bit of a dynamic shift
- 00:37:50that I think we're trying to contend against there.
- 00:37:53
- 00:37:55TASSO AZEVEDO: Two things--
- 00:37:56I think one thing is, as I said before, I
- 00:38:00don't think this will be solved if we
- 00:38:02try to do parcel by parcel.
- 00:38:04It has to be the property.
- 00:38:07Anything else would be just a guess, because you say, oh,
- 00:38:11you can clear-cut the forest, here,
- 00:38:12for this crop that is not--
- 00:38:14If the objective of the law is to stop deforestation,
- 00:38:19I mean, it's not a question.
- 00:38:21This parcel, here, is for soybean.
- 00:38:23There's no new deforestation.
- 00:38:25But I keep clear-cutting this for other crops.
- 00:38:28It makes no sense.
- 00:38:31I mean you can even take this as a decision.
- 00:38:33Say for your control, you say, well,
- 00:38:36I'm simply considering the property,
- 00:38:38because it's much safer than trying to find out the plot.
- 00:38:41So I think this could be--
- 00:38:42The other thing about the chain of custody,
- 00:38:44I think there is a lot of lessons,
- 00:38:47from the whole process of FSC certification, because we
- 00:38:51spent 30 years, almost, like building up this thing.
- 00:38:53And the end result of that is the only way to do it
- 00:38:57is mass balance.
- 00:38:59We will not find a way to do it, like tracking
- 00:39:01every truck and et cetera.
- 00:39:04And actually, this will not help the objective.
- 00:39:08If our objective is really the deforestation,
- 00:39:11than a simple mass balance control by region
- 00:39:15will help us to get through.
- 00:39:18At least, on the beginning, just make
- 00:39:20something that is simple mass balance.
- 00:39:23And these two things are very important.
- 00:39:25Because, as much as we make this complicated,
- 00:39:28we have an argument to postpone the beginning.
- 00:39:33Because we will arrive at the end of 2024,
- 00:39:35people will say, oh, it's impossible to do it.
- 00:39:37Postpone.
- 00:39:38So we have to do something that is much more simple to start.
- 00:39:43And then, OK, we can start.
- 00:39:45And then we go and kind of a lock-in as we go on with this.
- 00:39:50ALICIA SULLIVAN: That's really interesting.
- 00:39:52And I'm wondering maybe, Remi, would the EU Commission
- 00:39:57be open to taking an approach, like Tasso was describing,
- 00:40:01that is a little bit more of a step towards the way
- 00:40:05that the regulation is written today?
- 00:40:07
- 00:40:10REMI D'ANNUNZIO: So first thing, maybe the really long term
- 00:40:16objective of the European Commission
- 00:40:18is to eliminate deforestation.
- 00:40:19But at the moment, the only objective
- 00:40:20of the European Commission is to prevent
- 00:40:22products that are deforestationary to enter
- 00:40:24the EU market.
- 00:40:25And they don't really care what's
- 00:40:26going to happen otherwise.
- 00:40:27And to be honest, there's a lot of collateral damage
- 00:40:30that's going to happen on some commodities,
- 00:40:32just because of the definition.
- 00:40:33And shaded crops, let's just be clear, coffee, cocoa--
- 00:40:38because the main aspect of the definition on deforestation
- 00:40:42is the change on land use.
- 00:40:44So you enter forest, if it's classified as a forest.
- 00:40:48You enter it.
- 00:40:49You enter any crop in it, it's considered deforestation.
- 00:40:52And that cannot enter the market anymore.
- 00:40:54That's done.
- 00:40:54So my first advice would be to actually
- 00:40:57look at economists and legal people,
- 00:41:00because there's a lot of those products
- 00:41:02that we have to go to other markets.
- 00:41:04Because, I think, that's going to be
- 00:41:05a reality in December 2024.
- 00:41:13I think there is definitely a stepwise approach that's
- 00:41:16going to happen.
- 00:41:19There's a lot of specifications that are not existing yet.
- 00:41:23So it's still an ongoing process.
- 00:41:27What you mentioned around Cerrado
- 00:41:29is something that is already considered.
- 00:41:31They already consider including other wooded lands
- 00:41:34in the upcoming iterations, next year, of the regulation.
- 00:41:38So they do have that stepwise approach in mind.
- 00:41:44And what can I say?
- 00:41:46No.
- 00:41:47Yeah.
- 00:41:49I think we should be very conscious that, I think,
- 00:41:52the EC wanted to target the big bulk of deforestation
- 00:41:57associated to agricultural development.
- 00:41:59They want to prevent that to enter the market
- 00:42:02and took some decisions to make it relatively clear in terms
- 00:42:05of semantics and definitions.
- 00:42:08And because of that, there will be
- 00:42:10collateral damage on markets.
- 00:42:12And there will be some change in the supply chains.
- 00:42:15ALICIA SULLIVAN: Thank you very much.
- 00:42:16REMI D'ANNUNZIO: I imagine you want this one.
- 00:42:17ALICIA SULLIVAN: Yes, please.
- 00:42:19PIERRICK RAMBAUD: So just to jump on the definition problem,
- 00:42:24there is one issue that, as a private company,
- 00:42:28we cannot actually handle, which is the definition of what was
- 00:42:31forest in 2020.
- 00:42:33There are hundreds of data sets that
- 00:42:35are defining what is forest, what is non-forest.
- 00:42:38Most of them are actually not defining
- 00:42:40what's forest and non-forest but what
- 00:42:41is tree and not-tree-- so back again, palm trees, coffee,
- 00:42:44cocoa.
- 00:42:45But at the moment, the European Commission has not said,
- 00:42:49this data set is the truth.
- 00:42:50And all the others, you can use them,
- 00:42:52but they are just helping you building your forest
- 00:42:57probability mask.
- 00:42:58So as long as we don't really know which is the reference
- 00:43:02data set-- and I'm not sure that they will actually select one--
- 00:43:06every private company will select his provider,
- 00:43:09will select his data set, and send,
- 00:43:11to the EU, due diligence report that will
- 00:43:14be based on different sources.
- 00:43:16And that's an inconsistency that we
- 00:43:18don't know how the European Commission will actually
- 00:43:20handle.
- 00:43:21[LAUGHTER]
- 00:43:22REMI D'ANNUNZIO: Can I just say that I'm pretty sure they
- 00:43:25won't.
- 00:43:25I'm pretty sure they will not take any responsibility
- 00:43:28in saying this is the data set to use.
- 00:43:30You have to know that.
- 00:43:32And yes, you're right.
- 00:43:34Until then and as long as the regulations are going to be on,
- 00:43:37it's going to be your responsibility
- 00:43:39to provide the due diligence.
- 00:43:40And then that's going to be their problem to verify.
- 00:43:44TASSO AZEVEDO: Just to be honest,
- 00:43:46it doesn't really matter.
- 00:43:47ALICIA SULLIVAN: It's a great question.
- 00:43:49TASSO AZEVEDO: Because it's like 80%.
- 00:43:51I mean, if we can tackle 80%, 90% of the problem,
- 00:43:54that's done.
- 00:43:55Right?
- 00:43:56You don't have to be guaranteed that this will be like 100%.
- 00:43:59So if you have your map, your reference, and it's working,
- 00:44:03maybe there will be an error, here or there.
- 00:44:07Just we have to think about the scale of the problem.
- 00:44:10PIERRICK RAMBAUD: That's good for you.
- 00:44:11We are fine now.
- 00:44:13REMI D'ANNUNZIO: No, no.
- 00:44:14No, no, no, what I'm saying is like, if the regulation says
- 00:44:16that your map is fine, whatever.
- 00:44:18The map that you present is fine.
- 00:44:20I mean, what I'm saying is that, for the objective, it's fine.
- 00:44:24It's fine that you have different maps.
- 00:44:26Because the different maps will not be so different.
- 00:44:28They will be different.
- 00:44:29There will be things here and there.
- 00:44:31And for the big thing, think of the big picture.
- 00:44:34Basically, we have 4 million hectares
- 00:44:37of deforestation every year.
- 00:44:38Those commodities are representing 80% of them.
- 00:44:40If we solve 80%, I mean we take down 60% of the deforestation.
- 00:44:45That's an amazing achievement that we can have
- 00:44:48forced by one small market.
- 00:44:50Because comparably, the market is not even that big.
- 00:44:53But companies your size will have
- 00:44:55to apply the same kind of practices whatever
- 00:44:59market you go, because, if you go to the higher tier,
- 00:45:02it will happen.
- 00:45:03So I think this is like a--
- 00:45:04yeah.
- 00:45:05So--
- 00:45:06ALICIA SULLIVAN: I guess this is a somewhat nice segue
- 00:45:08into another question I had for the panel.
- 00:45:11What role do you see commercial data or solutions providers
- 00:45:14in supporting companies to meet this regulation?
- 00:45:16And as a follow-up question, what
- 00:45:19degree of scientific scrutiny and transparency do you think
- 00:45:22will be needed from those commercial providers?
- 00:45:25And maybe, Evan, do you want to start with that?
- 00:45:27EVAN TACHOVSKY: Sure, go to the non-commercial person, too.
- 00:45:29[LAUGHTER]
- 00:45:30So we have a saying at WRI, when do know when to stop.
- 00:45:34And we stop when the major consultancies come in
- 00:45:37as a general rule.
- 00:45:38And so if a major consulting firm
- 00:45:40feels there's enough market, enough standardization, enough
- 00:45:42kind of thing there, you probably
- 00:45:44don't actually need us.
- 00:45:45Now, in this case, I think that's partially true
- 00:45:47but partially not true in that I think
- 00:45:49there will be a lot of providers who step up
- 00:45:51to serve EUDR compliance.
- 00:45:53But to Tasso's point, the big picture
- 00:45:55is deforestation, globally, and the climate crisis.
- 00:45:58And so we will still need global data layers.
- 00:46:01We will still need people actually monitoring
- 00:46:03and reporting on how this whole EUDR ecosystem plays out
- 00:46:07in the big picture.
- 00:46:08Is there just displacement?
- 00:46:09Or is there sort of massive economic failure
- 00:46:12in certain places that actually increases famines or something
- 00:46:15like that?
- 00:46:15There's a bigger picture out there.
- 00:46:16And EUDR is part of a system that's changing.
- 00:46:19And so I think, on our picture, we would say,
- 00:46:21we still monitor the globe.
- 00:46:22We still build these global data layers that
- 00:46:24are meant to be open, transparent,
- 00:46:25and help scientists, help policymakers,
- 00:46:27help journalists understand how the world is changing.
- 00:46:30Specifically on the point around commercial data providers,
- 00:46:32I think it's incredible to harness
- 00:46:35the innovation of the private sector working
- 00:46:37toward this problem.
- 00:46:38And I think we see more and more of that every day.
- 00:46:40I think we also see a lot of folks who do not
- 00:46:42stop to document their work.
- 00:46:43And if they did stop to document their work,
- 00:46:46I think a lot of the buyers would be less than excited
- 00:46:48about the results of that documentation.
- 00:46:50And so I would encourage everyone, who is,
- 00:46:52of course, a scrupulous actor and doing amazing stuff,
- 00:46:55document it even if it's only internal
- 00:46:56and your legal team won't let you release it.
- 00:46:58But write that down.
- 00:47:00What are these definitions?
- 00:47:02What is this data?
- 00:47:02How have we tested it?
- 00:47:04What are the accumetrics we're reporting?
- 00:47:07Have we almost red-teamed that process?
- 00:47:10And even it's just for you, in your soul,
- 00:47:12to know that you're selling something good,
- 00:47:14it's important to have that documented.
- 00:47:15And then it would be amazing if more people released these,
- 00:47:18either through publication or simply through greater
- 00:47:20transparency.
- 00:47:21And I think, in our experience, as a nonprofit offering
- 00:47:24products in this market, we get people
- 00:47:27coming to us because of that, because of the transparency.
- 00:47:30I don't think that will always be the case.
- 00:47:32I hope that the bar will go up.
- 00:47:33And we won't, maybe, in the future,
- 00:47:35even need to offer products for companies in this way.
- 00:47:38But people are coming to us because of the transparency,
- 00:47:40because we can show everyone all of the code.
- 00:47:42Because we can actually walk people through that.
- 00:47:44And startups won't always be able to do that,
- 00:47:46because you're competing for certain things.
- 00:47:48But the more we can emulate that, as a community,
- 00:47:51I think the better off we'll be.
- 00:47:52ALICIA SULLIVAN: Awesome.
- 00:47:53Does anyone else want to add?
- 00:47:54PIERRICK RAMBAUD: Yeah.
- 00:47:55Sure.
- 00:47:55So I cannot agree more.
- 00:47:58Please let me know what you're doing.
- 00:47:59When you're a private provider, and you're coming to a company
- 00:48:02and saying, we can manage your problem,
- 00:48:04but you're not explaining your methodology,
- 00:48:06we cannot really use your solution.
- 00:48:08Because the issue that we have of definition,
- 00:48:10the only solution that we can have
- 00:48:12is transparency, transparency on your methodology.
- 00:48:15Because if we can send your due diligence report and say,
- 00:48:18this is the methodology that has been
- 00:48:20used to perform the due diligence report, then at least
- 00:48:23we are on the safe side when we are talking to the European
- 00:48:26Commission.
- 00:48:26If it's a black box, they have all the reason not
- 00:48:29to trust you.
- 00:48:29And we have all the reason not to work with you.
- 00:48:33ALICIA SULLIVAN: Awesome.
- 00:48:34I want to-- this is a great--
- 00:48:35AUDIENCE: What does the regulation
- 00:48:37say about the transparency?
- 00:48:38ALICIA SULLIVAN: Yeah.
- 00:48:39Thank you, Brady.
- 00:48:40AUDIENCE: What does the regulation
- 00:48:41say about transparency?
- 00:48:42[LAUGHTER]
- 00:48:44Say it.
- 00:48:44
- 00:48:47Like this is potentially a huge data
- 00:48:49set for academics, watchdog groups, everything.
- 00:48:52Will they have access to it or only
- 00:48:54if there is actors that want to make it transparent?
- 00:48:57Or is there something in the regulation about being open?
- 00:48:59ALICIA SULLIVAN: Are you asking about
- 00:49:01the specific due diligence reports or the data layers?
- 00:49:04AUDIENCE: No, even the data that was going into that.
- 00:49:06What is the--
- 00:49:06ALICIA SULLIVAN: Remi, do you want to?
- 00:49:07REMI D'ANNUNZIO: I'm happy to answer to that.
- 00:49:09So the regulation says that all the information that
- 00:49:11will be disclosed will be centralized
- 00:49:13through an information system, which is not yet
- 00:49:16completely defined.
- 00:49:17That is supposed to come in December 2023.
- 00:49:19So watch out.
- 00:49:21[LAUGHTER]
- 00:49:22And as per the--
- 00:49:25I don't know, it's a principle of the EU.
- 00:49:26All the data that will be inside this will be fully public.
- 00:49:29It will be fully anonymized and fully public.
- 00:49:31But that's going to be only the information that
- 00:49:33is disclosed by the operators.
- 00:49:34So the operators will disclose their fields
- 00:49:38and the information from all those fields.
- 00:49:42And it will be there with the associated information
- 00:49:47on deforestation.
- 00:49:49So this is going to be public.
- 00:49:50And this is going to be fully out there.
- 00:49:52AUDIENCE: So the polygons are available, but it's anonymized?
- 00:49:54REMI D'ANNUNZIO: Yes.
- 00:49:57That's what the regulation says.
- 00:49:59ALICIA SULLIVAN: Well, and also, as part of the due diligence,
- 00:50:01the operators, I believe, do have
- 00:50:02to say what method they used, what data set, et cetera,
- 00:50:05in order to prove their due diligence to the risk
- 00:50:09assessment.
- 00:50:10So I don't know that they have to actually submit
- 00:50:12that particular data set, but they have to at least reference
- 00:50:15it and how they got to that.
- 00:50:17REMI D'ANNUNZIO: If I understand correctly,
- 00:50:19the thing about the polygons is that you
- 00:50:20have 100 polygons related to whatever is a company.
- 00:50:23What you will not see is who is the holder of that polygon.
- 00:50:28ALICIA SULLIVAN: The operator.
- 00:50:29TASSO AZEVEDO: You just know that you have them
- 00:50:32as a reference from something that comes.
- 00:50:34So I think that's the anonymization
- 00:50:36that we are talking about.
- 00:50:37REMI D'ANNUNZIO: Yes, that's it.
- 00:50:40So the reports will be--
- 00:50:44I don't know if all the reports will be available, but yeah,
- 00:50:47probably.
- 00:50:48But the database, itself, will just
- 00:50:50contain those geometries and the associated
- 00:50:53risk of deforestation.
- 00:50:55ALICIA SULLIVAN: Gotcha.
- 00:50:56BOBBY PINTER: Good to know though, as well,
- 00:50:58that some of the due diligence statements
- 00:51:00will have to reference other due diligence statements.
- 00:51:02So you'll get this kind of cascading set of due diligence
- 00:51:05statement problem, which I think a lot of the work that we'll
- 00:51:09end up doing will be actually rather
- 00:51:11operational and procedural.
- 00:51:13In my place in the market, it's going
- 00:51:14to be, like, I don't hope to make any model layers, myself,
- 00:51:17personally.
- 00:51:18I would rather that I'm pulling from one
- 00:51:20that's well peer-reviewed, that's recognized.
- 00:51:22And there's going to be a lot of work on what
- 00:51:24was the process we followed.
- 00:51:26Because if it turns out that there's no deforestation,
- 00:51:28it's fairly simple.
- 00:51:29But if you're not sure or if there's a high enough risk,
- 00:51:32like, oh, boy.
- 00:51:33The process that you're going to have to go through?
- 00:51:36I think there's going to be a lot of strange cost benefit
- 00:51:37analysis.
- 00:51:38And I think there's some points around exclusion
- 00:51:40and segregation that were mentioned, as well.
- 00:51:42Like what's it going to be worth to go and figure out
- 00:51:45is there deforestation in this area?
- 00:51:47You may reach a point where you're saying, well,
- 00:51:49we're only sourcing a couple hundred pounds of product.
- 00:51:52Am I going to go pay for a satellite tasking?
- 00:51:55There's going to be these weird numbers
- 00:51:57that organizations get to.
- 00:51:59And to the point earlier, there's
- 00:52:01a lot of economic ramifications.
- 00:52:03I think part of where this ecosystem should go
- 00:52:05is, like, I hope to not see myself
- 00:52:06as being in the compliance industry.
- 00:52:09I think there's a hope, here, that it's
- 00:52:10going to be a little bit more of how are we both reshaping
- 00:52:14supply chains, in a positive sense,
- 00:52:15but also thinking a lot about what are the underlying
- 00:52:19economics of these areas.
- 00:52:21By moving supply chains away, what does that actually mean?
- 00:52:25I'd like to see private actors and companies
- 00:52:29taking some of that intentionality
- 00:52:31into that approach.
- 00:52:32I think a lot about, for example,
- 00:52:33the stranded asset problem, where someone's, like,
- 00:52:35oh, we sold away a particularly expensive or carbon-intensive
- 00:52:41part of our business.
- 00:52:42Someone still bought it.
- 00:52:43It didn't really-- it didn't poof out of existence, right?
- 00:52:46And I think those are the kinds of activities
- 00:52:48that it's probably on this community, in a certain sense,
- 00:52:51to say, how do we make sure that we just don't have
- 00:52:53some super companies that can just exclude parts
- 00:52:56of the market or change their supply chains in a way that
- 00:52:58leave a lot of groups behind.
- 00:52:59ALICIA SULLIVAN: All right, guys,
- 00:53:01we have five minutes left.
- 00:53:02I know we have at least two more questions.
- 00:53:04Brady?
- 00:53:05AUDIENCE: Yeah.
- 00:53:05Hi.
- 00:53:06I was wondering-- I have two questions.
- 00:53:08One was, when you're talking about deforestation risk,
- 00:53:11is it at the point of planting, is it during the process,
- 00:53:15is it at sowing?
- 00:53:16Are you calculating the risk of deforestation
- 00:53:19even before any of these processes actually start?
- 00:53:23And at what resolution are you measuring?
- 00:53:26How do you say that a 3 meter or 50 centimeter
- 00:53:29resolution map of deforestation, and some other company does
- 00:53:33a coarser resolution versus a finer resolution--
- 00:53:35how do you even say this better than this?
- 00:53:39Like is there even an uncertainty marking in any way?
- 00:53:42And the next question I have is, is there
- 00:53:44any concept of something like blockchain monitoring of food
- 00:53:48traceability?
- 00:53:49People have tried this approach, where, at every step,
- 00:53:53there is a monitoring that goes in,
- 00:53:55in terms of auditors, in terms of where the food actually
- 00:53:58comes from, apart from doing high level risk
- 00:54:02assessment from satellites.
- 00:54:03I was just curious.
- 00:54:04
- 00:54:07REMI D'ANNUNZIO: OK.
- 00:54:08On the information that needs to come?
- 00:54:11At the moment, the only real information
- 00:54:14was, the 31st of December 2020, was your field forest or not?
- 00:54:19That's the only information you actually need to provide.
- 00:54:22Because you say, hey, this is my field.
- 00:54:25Here, is where I grow my crop.
- 00:54:27So if this is where my crop is and this was forest in 2020,
- 00:54:30I deforested-- end of the story.
- 00:54:33There is no real specification.
- 00:54:36There's specification on the field precisions.
- 00:54:39And I think it's something around 3 meters.
- 00:54:42But there are no other specifications
- 00:54:44on what type of data, on what you need to do.
- 00:54:47It's just like you have to make a due diligence on whether you
- 00:54:51deforested or not.
- 00:54:52And in the end, it boils down to, was it forest in 2020.
- 00:54:56If it was, it's untouchable forever.
- 00:54:59And if it was not forest in 2020, there is still somehow,
- 00:55:03in 2025 maybe in 2026, where we're going to have regrowth,
- 00:55:06you're going to still have to prove
- 00:55:07that it was not deforested.
- 00:55:09So it didn't grow into a forest.
- 00:55:11But that's the only thing that's interesting.
- 00:55:13So we don't even actually need information on deforestation.
- 00:55:15We need information on status of forest,
- 00:55:17which is why it's so important to have
- 00:55:19the difference between crops that
- 00:55:23look like forests and forest.
- 00:55:26AUDIENCE: But it's not continuous monitoring.
- 00:55:28So you don't have to-- you just have to say,
- 00:55:302020, it was not forest.
- 00:55:32And we're good for the next 10 years.
- 00:55:34We don't have to report on this every year or every month
- 00:55:37or something?
- 00:55:37REMI D'ANNUNZIO: Unclear.
- 00:55:37Unclear.
- 00:55:38PIERRICK RAMBAUD: You will actually
- 00:55:39need to report if the plot has changed crop.
- 00:55:43AUDIENCE: OK.
- 00:55:43PIERRICK RAMBAUD: So that's the first thing.
- 00:55:45Then, when you were asking, when should we
- 00:55:47check if it's actually deforested or not,
- 00:55:50don't forget that there's cattle in the list.
- 00:55:52And they are actually born, grown,
- 00:55:54and killed in different places.
- 00:55:56So plants are point of growth and harvesting,
- 00:56:00but, for cattle, that's a bit different.
- 00:56:01And when you are speaking about definition,
- 00:56:05so there's definition on the geometry.
- 00:56:08So it needs to use six digits for the GPS coordinates.
- 00:56:12But there is no other specification.
- 00:56:14So if you want to do a triangle, with three points,
- 00:56:16with six digits, apparently it works.
- 00:56:19ALICIA SULLIVAN: I think there was one more question.
- 00:56:22And we only have two minutes.
- 00:56:23So I wanted to get to that real quick.
- 00:56:25AUDIENCE: I just wanted to ask about--
- 00:56:27you spoke about anonymizing polygons.
- 00:56:30And I'm thinking, well, you can't really anonymize it.
- 00:56:33If it's got a lat and long, you know where it is.
- 00:56:36And the farmers might not want to tell you
- 00:56:40where their plots are.
- 00:56:42And how do you deal with those sorts of issues?
- 00:56:46TASSO AZEVEDO: Yeah, if they can't tell,
- 00:56:47they will not be able to sell, obviously.
- 00:56:49But I think the question is like it simply
- 00:56:52makes absolutely no sense that this is done by plot.
- 00:56:56That's not how deforestation happens.
- 00:56:58If we go, deforestation is growing every year.
- 00:57:00So if you take a typical farm in Mato Grosso, for example,
- 00:57:04for soybean, you have 200 hectares of one plot.
- 00:57:08100 hectares were deforested before 2020
- 00:57:13another one was after.
- 00:57:15And then this is the plot.
- 00:57:16What do you expect that he goes and say,
- 00:57:18oh, now I have two plots.
- 00:57:19This plot, here, I can sell to Europe.
- 00:57:23This other plot, I can't sell to Europe.
- 00:57:24It's completely ridiculous.
- 00:57:26It makes absolutely no sense to make that.
- 00:57:28So it's kind of--
- 00:57:29[LAUGHTER]
- 00:57:29I think that those things--
- 00:57:31no, it's very simple.
- 00:57:32It's very a practical topic.
- 00:57:35There is no way that you will be able to separate it.
- 00:57:37No way.
- 00:57:38There is no way.
- 00:57:38Nobody will harvest things and separate in two trucks
- 00:57:41and things like this.
- 00:57:42
- 00:57:44In practical terms, what will happen is
- 00:57:46you have to work in properties.
- 00:57:48Otherwise you always run on the risk
- 00:57:50that you have this contamination and so on.
- 00:57:52REMI D'ANNUNZIO: But I think this is
- 00:57:53why they make it complicated.
- 00:57:54I think their initial goal was to actually prevent
- 00:57:57deforestation to happen.
- 00:57:58And it's so complicated.
- 00:57:59As Bobby was saying, if you don't deforest,
- 00:58:01if you don't have deforestation, here and then here,
- 00:58:04then you're fine.
- 00:58:05And this is basically supply chains
- 00:58:07that don't have deforestation will be good to go.
- 00:58:11Supply chains that are associated with deforestation
- 00:58:14will not enter the market, because it's so complex,
- 00:58:16and it's so risky that they will not do it.
- 00:58:19If there is any risk--
- 00:58:20there was one thing I wanted to finish on.
- 00:58:22If there's any risk of suspicion on any part of the shipments,
- 00:58:25it says that the country receiving
- 00:58:27have the right to stop the containers for three days.
- 00:58:30If we think about how much it's going
- 00:58:33to cost to have ships waiting for verification to come?
- 00:58:38And if there is no verification, then they
- 00:58:40have the right to prolong.
- 00:58:41It's a deterring mechanism.
- 00:58:43ALICIA SULLIVAN: Yeah.
- 00:58:44No, it definitely is.
- 00:58:45And we are out of time.
- 00:58:46But I can tell that this is a very hot topic.
- 00:58:48[LAUGHTER]
- 00:58:49I am very glad that we had this amazing discussion.
- 00:58:53So I'd encourage you all, if you're
- 00:58:55interested in getting into the next level tech session, about
- 00:58:59commodity mapping and understanding
- 00:59:00the current state of that, that is happening at 3 o'clock
- 00:59:03in the same room.
- 00:59:05And please give a big round of applause to our panelists.
- 00:59:08[APPLAUSE]
- 00:59:10[MUSIC PLAYING]
- 00:59:15
- EUDR
- deforestation
- supply chain
- geospatial data
- compliance
- regulation
- sustainability
- traceability
- commodities
- deforestation-free