Dave Snowden and friends - Organizational Design - Part 4

00:48:47
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96qjz8rn8xU

摘要

TLDRThe fourth video in a series on organizational design and adaptive capacity discusses the importance of informal networks in learning and their role as critical sensor networks compared to formal networks. The conversation also examines types of organizational interventions, highlighting the need to remove temporary ones to prevent needless complexities. Adaptive capacity, initially related to climate change, is explored as a crucial trait for organizations facing disruption, emphasizing the need for continuous learning and flexible structures. The speakers touch on leadership's role in adaptive capacity, noting that leadership is often wrongly focused on decision-making instead of fostering emergent leadership from followers. The video reflects on the balance between robustness and resilience in organizational structures, critiquing overreliance on short-term fixes and rigid hierarchies, which can stifle necessary change. Concepts like the dual operating system are discussed for managing the need for stable and flexible systems. The conversation ends with insights on the importance of adaptive capacity in ensuring long-term organizational viability without depending excessively on external hiring or overly rigid designs.

心得

  • 🌐 Informal networks are key to organizational learning and act as sensor networks.
  • ⚙️ Interventions in organizations should focus on eliminating temporary, unnecessary methods.
  • 🌱 Adaptive capacity is linked to climate adaptability, crucial for handling disruptions.
  • 🔄 Leadership should enable emergent leadership rather than focus on decision-making.
  • 🏢 Hierarchy, although criticized, is essential for organization stability during crises.
  • 🔁 Continuous learning and skill development are vital for increasing adaptive capacity.
  • 📉 Overemphasis on short-term solutions can hinder long-term organizational adaptation.
  • 🏗️ Balance between resilience and robustness is needed for effective organizational design.
  • 📊 Professional management without sector knowledge can limit organizational flexibility.
  • 🔍 The dual operating system model suggests a balance between stable hierarchies and adaptable teams.

时间轴

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    In previous discussions, several topics were covered including informal versus formal networks and their impact on organizational learning as critical sensor networks. The conversations also delved into organizational design interventions, noting their ease of addition rather than removal, and the importance of getting rid of temporary interventions to prevent complexity. Discussions also included the hope-despair cycle in organizational design models, the Spotify example of evolving culture and its risks, and traps in organizational design. Hierarchy's role was examined, as well as leadership concepts focusing on followers creating leaders, and the realization that increased adaptive capacity should be a design goal.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    In today's session, the focus shifted to adaptive capacity, discussing its relevance inspired by climate change adaptability. Adaptive capacity in organizations involves continuous learning and capability development. The emphasis was on forming networks within organizations to leverage existing knowledge and adapt without needing external hires. The conversation also touched on the resilience versus robustness debate, and the problematic nature of adopting biological metaphors in organizational systems due to human complexity.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    The discussion covered contrasting definitions of resilience and robustness, emphasizing the importance of both qualities and their interaction within organizations. Debates around the concept of anti-fragility were situated in the context of organizations balancing dense informal networks with formal hierarchy to maintain resilience. The potential dangers of overemphasizing one approach at the expense of the other were highlighted, demonstrating the need for multiple interacting organizational structures to ensure resilience and functionality during stress.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    The dialogue turned towards organizational structure, exploring the idea of designing entities to be both resilient and robust. There was an analogy with children's bones growing stronger after fractures, and an argument that for systems to adapt, they must sometimes break and reassemble. The conversation continued into leadership and its role in adaptability, suggesting election-oriented tenures may enhance adaptive capacities by preventing the stagnation often caused by long-term leaders.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    A discussion emerged on the concept of graceful extensibility and adaptive capacity within networks. This part included insights into how organizations might become over-optimized for current conditions and lose adaptability. The challenge of convincing organizations to invest in adaptive capacity when stability might lead to over-optimization was highlighted. The idea that awareness across the entire network of approaching boundaries could influence adaptive potential was also suggested.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    The conversation continued to examine how crises alter energy costs and change systems. It was noted that systems, like organizations, need to be able to undergo significant phase shifts, sometimes requiring the ability to break and reconstruct so they can adapt effectively. An examination of current economic shifts was cited, implying a transformation in traditional retail models due to recent crises, revealing the importance of recognizing and adapting to new societal patterns.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    The importance of maintaining a balance between business efficiency and learning was discussed. Emphasis was placed on ensuring organizations do not become overly optimized, thus squandering opportunity for adaptive capacity. The debate touched on how often organizations are too lean, impacting their agility and ability to learn and adapt in different contexts. Attention was drawn to instances where over-focus on immediate efficiency detracts from building long-term resilient capabilities.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Discussions highlighted issues in organizational structuring, particularly how outsourcing and professional management affect adaptive capacity. The error in outsourcing mission-critical work was pointed out, suggesting a need for more dynamic structures. The conversations mentioned Toyota's model of long-term employment fostering adaptability, signaling a need for strategic retention of certain human resources to uphold organizational knowledge and capability.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:48:47

    Finally, the session concluded with acknowledgments of the complexity in creating practical approaches to enhance organizational adaptive capacity, acknowledging that many organizations fail to achieve a balance between competing needs and innovative adaptability. Despite this, the discussions served to highlight the importance of continuous learning and strategic leadership to foster environments that support sustained adaptability and resilience.

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思维导图

视频问答

  • What was discussed regarding informal and formal networks?

    The discussion highlighted the importance of informal networks in organizational learning and the different trust relationships in informal vs. formal networks.

  • What are the three types of interventions mentioned?

    The three types of interventions discussed are stable, plastic, and ephemeral. It's crucial to remove ephemeral interventions to avoid complexities.

  • What is the hope despair cycle in organizational design?

    It refers to a cycle in organizational design that begins with hope and ends in despair if focused only on destination without allowing emergence.

  • What risks are associated with copying organizational models like Spotify's?

    The risk is in applying a model snapshot that is constantly evolving, which may not work well in a different organization.

  • How does leadership impact adaptive capacity?

    Leadership should enable adaptive capacity but often focuses on decision-making rather than allowing followers to create leadership emergence.

  • What is the significance of adaptive capacity in the context of climate change?

    Adaptive capacity in this context refers to a system's ability to adjust to climate variability and extremes, applicable to organizational disruptions.

  • What is the relationship between adaptive capacity and continuous learning?

    Adaptive capacity requires a system where continuous learning and development of skills are prioritized to react to changes without hiring new staff.

  • How do large proportions of organizational learning occur?

    They occur primarily in informal networks, which act as critical sensor networks.

  • What role does hierarchy play in organizational design?

    While often demonized, hierarchy remains crucial for command and control during crises and to prevent chaos.

  • What is the primary challenge in increasing adaptive capacity?

    The challenge is creating structures that allow for adaptation without rigid frameworks that prohibit necessary change.

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  • 00:00:02
    all right and welcome back everyone this
  • 00:00:06
    is the fourth in a series of
  • 00:00:08
    conversations and I have actually
  • 00:00:10
    prepared some notes today with great
  • 00:00:13
    thanks to Toby Sinclair whose dumbest
  • 00:00:15
    the service of writing up a bit of what
  • 00:00:18
    we've been talking about which is great
  • 00:00:21
    because none of us could remember so
  • 00:00:25
    yeah the three conversations before
  • 00:00:28
    today some of the topics that we've
  • 00:00:29
    covered have been informal versus formal
  • 00:00:32
    networks so the fact that a large
  • 00:00:35
    proportion of organizational learning
  • 00:00:37
    occurs in the informal networks these
  • 00:00:40
    become critical sensor networks and
  • 00:00:43
    there's a different relationship to
  • 00:00:44
    trust in the informal versus formal
  • 00:00:46
    networks we've talked about the nature
  • 00:00:49
    of organization design interventions and
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    the fact that it's easier to add
  • 00:00:54
    interventions to assistance than it is
  • 00:00:57
    to remove them so in effect it's easier
  • 00:00:59
    to scale that it is Tedesco talked about
  • 00:01:03
    three types of interventions stable
  • 00:01:05
    plastic ephemeral and a key note there
  • 00:01:09
    is to be really careful that you get rid
  • 00:01:12
    of the the ephemeral or the temporary
  • 00:01:15
    time-bound interventions that you're
  • 00:01:17
    making otherwise they'll just stay in
  • 00:01:19
    the system and the concertina effect
  • 00:01:22
    where you make a really complex and
  • 00:01:25
    they'd have to blow it up later we've
  • 00:01:28
    talked about hope despair cycle the as
  • 00:01:31
    is to be organizational design model
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    which is destination focused and has
  • 00:01:36
    origins in cybernetics and how that
  • 00:01:40
    basically creates a cycle that's
  • 00:01:42
    negative alternatively it's alternative
  • 00:01:46
    used to start from from principles and
  • 00:01:48
    allow things to emerge we've spoken
  • 00:01:50
    about the Spotify example both how that
  • 00:01:53
    culture emerged over time and also the
  • 00:01:56
    risks in copying a model or a snapshot
  • 00:01:58
    of a model that is constantly changing
  • 00:02:01
    and trying to apply that snapshot
  • 00:02:04
    somewhere else but we also spoken about
  • 00:02:08
    how into interactions or connections are
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    really the key with some example
  • 00:02:14
    in organizational scaffolding and also
  • 00:02:16
    in the work of Matt Skelton and Manuel
  • 00:02:19
    pace in team topologies we've talked
  • 00:02:22
    about some of the traps in
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    organizational design including
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    designing in a silo being destination
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    focused using recipes or play books
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    which and send you in a direction of
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    homogenize a ssin the risk of being
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    abstracted from context in design of
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    conflicting goals and of the utilization
  • 00:02:43
    paradox we spoke about hierarchy which
  • 00:02:48
    is becoming increasingly demonized but
  • 00:02:50
    has a real role to play in
  • 00:02:52
    organizational design that's an
  • 00:02:54
    important constraint without hierarchy
  • 00:02:56
    you don't have a chain of command in a
  • 00:02:59
    crisis and also importantly Mavericks
  • 00:03:01
    don't emerge we spent some time on
  • 00:03:04
    leadership particularly around the
  • 00:03:06
    concept of how followers create leaders
  • 00:03:08
    as opposed to leaders creating followers
  • 00:03:11
    we've spoken about the idea that some
  • 00:03:13
    leaders falsely think productivity is
  • 00:03:16
    decision-making in their roles and that
  • 00:03:18
    in a crisis perhaps consult consultation
  • 00:03:21
    is an inhibiting constraint rather than
  • 00:03:23
    enabling the strengths and finally we
  • 00:03:26
    touched on adaptive capacity which is
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    basically the idea that the aim of all
  • 00:03:31
    designs should be to increase the
  • 00:03:33
    adaptive capacity of the organization so
  • 00:03:35
    we're looking for fluid structures that
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    are allow adaptation to adaptation in
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    design to changing circumstances
  • 00:03:44
    so that's been the last three what we
  • 00:03:47
    spoke about talking about today is
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    continuing on the theme of adaptive
  • 00:03:51
    capacity which has brought a fair bit of
  • 00:03:55
    interest and also moving into some
  • 00:03:57
    practical examples from our collective
  • 00:03:59
    experience we covered some ground under
  • 00:04:05
    its but I wrote some I I took some of
  • 00:04:10
    the same notes I'm not gonna read them
  • 00:04:12
    out but the adaptive capacity is
  • 00:04:13
    something that really does sort of
  • 00:04:15
    intrigue me and how we could apply that
  • 00:04:17
    in organizations it seems to have come
  • 00:04:20
    from climate change or at least its
  • 00:04:22
    origins is in how how we adapt based
  • 00:04:26
    upon climate
  • 00:04:27
    jain's one of the definitions here's
  • 00:04:28
    adaptive capacity is the ability of a
  • 00:04:30
    system to adjust a climate change
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    including climate variability and
  • 00:04:34
    extremes to moderate potential damages
  • 00:04:36
    to take advantages of opportunities or
  • 00:04:38
    to cope with consequences well if you
  • 00:04:41
    just remove the words climate change and
  • 00:04:43
    or just remove the word climate and just
  • 00:04:46
    leave it as change or disruption then
  • 00:04:49
    that really puts us in the the current
  • 00:04:51
    condition with the the global pandemic
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    and all the other sort of challenges and
  • 00:04:56
    organization has the issue for me is
  • 00:04:58
    that most organizations see adaptive
  • 00:05:01
    capacity meaning they've got staff or
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    they've got some contract with a
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    consulting company and they they pull
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    people from some virtual bench that they
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    don't have to maintain if they need
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    additional people to do work or
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    different skill sets my reading of
  • 00:05:18
    adaptive capacity I'm here to learn more
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    than anything is that we need to ensure
  • 00:05:23
    people are in a continuous learning
  • 00:05:26
    organization a continuous in
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    continuously developing new skills and
  • 00:05:30
    capabilities and continuing to practice
  • 00:05:33
    their existing skills and capabilities
  • 00:05:35
    and that they're able to reform and
  • 00:05:37
    adjust and pull from different parts of
  • 00:05:39
    the organization to respond to
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    disruptions or chaos or other changes
  • 00:05:45
    that they without having to sort of go
  • 00:05:47
    and hire in new people and it seems that
  • 00:05:51
    the networks within the organization
  • 00:05:53
    those sort of loosely connected networks
  • 00:05:56
    and even those sort of extended networks
  • 00:05:58
    seem to be the way to leverage this so
  • 00:06:01
    that's my understanding
  • 00:06:03
    I think I think it also raises the whole
  • 00:06:06
    resilient robustness debate and then
  • 00:06:09
    you've got to deal with the Talib stuff
  • 00:06:11
    about anti fragile which is problematic
  • 00:06:14
    in his own right and I think you've also
  • 00:06:17
    then got the issue about whether you can
  • 00:06:19
    take the biological methods and
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    metaphors over because I think if you
  • 00:06:23
    look at the original stuff honesty comes
  • 00:06:25
    from Holland and Gundersen originally
  • 00:06:27
    this stuff in a biological system the
  • 00:06:30
    feedback mechanisms and caused
  • 00:06:31
    catastrophic failure but human beings
  • 00:06:34
    seem to have a capacity to go through a
  • 00:06:35
    phase shift in a catastrophe and change
  • 00:06:38
    identity structures
  • 00:06:40
    and so I think we got to be careful on
  • 00:06:42
    the straightforward biological metaphor
  • 00:06:44
    here because I think humans are you know
  • 00:06:47
    set more more more complex in that sense
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    and a lot of this is term definition
  • 00:06:53
    mm-hmm it's it's the poem is the poem I
  • 00:06:57
    got we tell it which is I remember said
  • 00:07:02
    this is just before I got blocked and
  • 00:07:04
    joined a company involved in slamming
  • 00:07:05
    Wardley in several Nobel Prize winners
  • 00:07:07
    and I said you know from my point of
  • 00:07:09
    view auntie fragile is a type of
  • 00:07:11
    resilience and we've known about it for
  • 00:07:13
    50 or 60 years symbiosis is an example
  • 00:07:15
    yeah which is not to say you're wrong is
  • 00:07:18
    just to say I would use the terms
  • 00:07:20
    differently because I think the
  • 00:07:21
    resilient robust thing but Talabani
  • 00:07:24
    wants acolytes yeah but I think the the
  • 00:07:26
    key definition for me is a system which
  • 00:07:29
    is robust survives unchanged a system
  • 00:07:32
    which is resilient survives with
  • 00:07:34
    continuity of identity over time and for
  • 00:07:38
    me a system which survives better by you
  • 00:07:41
    know responding to stress or failure is
  • 00:07:44
    one type of resilience yeah but it's not
  • 00:07:47
    the only type of resilience and over
  • 00:07:50
    focus on it can actually be quite
  • 00:07:51
    dangerous and for humans the interaction
  • 00:07:54
    between the informal and the formal is
  • 00:07:56
    key so I come back to the thing if you
  • 00:07:59
    have a dense informal network and
  • 00:08:01
    everybody is within two degrees of
  • 00:08:02
    separation of everybody else that's
  • 00:08:05
    really good news but if you don't also
  • 00:08:06
    have a formal hierarchy it's really bad
  • 00:08:08
    news so you need multiple interacting
  • 00:08:12
    types of organizational structure to
  • 00:08:14
    create the resilience because you need a
  • 00:08:16
    lot of room you need an awful lot of
  • 00:08:18
    redundancy in the system and and the
  • 00:08:20
    more you focus on resilience the more
  • 00:08:22
    redundancy you need the less exploited
  • 00:08:25
    if you can be the more you focus and
  • 00:08:27
    robustness the less redundancy you need
  • 00:08:30
    in the system you say that was the thing
  • 00:08:33
    you were coming up with terminology say
  • 00:08:34
    I wonder if the the would be very
  • 00:08:37
    carefully ER with you in Thailand but
  • 00:08:39
    whether or not the the issue of anti
  • 00:08:42
    fragile ease is the book and the content
  • 00:08:45
    and and I've read it and I've seen many
  • 00:08:47
    many reviews of it I think the concept
  • 00:08:50
    have been anti-fur a July in the in the
  • 00:08:53
    in the
  • 00:08:54
    definition that you don't want a fragile
  • 00:08:56
    organization that's susceptible to
  • 00:08:58
    impact and changes and breaks down very
  • 00:09:01
    quickly when there's some sudden change
  • 00:09:03
    so I think the the concept have been
  • 00:09:05
    anti fragile is this idea of being
  • 00:09:08
    robust and again this is definitions my
  • 00:09:11
    understanding of robustness is that if
  • 00:09:13
    something happens your organization can
  • 00:09:16
    resist it or either way resiliency or
  • 00:09:19
    being resilient means that you can
  • 00:09:21
    respond to it and overcome it if it
  • 00:09:23
    happens whereas if you're a boss it
  • 00:09:26
    doesn't impact you which you know for
  • 00:09:28
    example I don't want the collar on my or
  • 00:09:30
    the steering wheel of my car to recover
  • 00:09:32
    quickly from failure I want it to be
  • 00:09:35
    fragile yeah the car as a whole is
  • 00:09:38
    therefore resilient and I think this
  • 00:09:40
    trouble with privilege in one term over
  • 00:09:43
    all the other terms rather than
  • 00:09:44
    recognizing you need variations on this
  • 00:09:48
    so what we're saying is we need
  • 00:09:50
    organizations to both be resilient and
  • 00:09:52
    robust new things break which don't
  • 00:09:56
    recover I mean think that's part of the
  • 00:09:58
    problem if you have an over rigid
  • 00:09:59
    hierarchy you know with too many layers
  • 00:10:01
    it can't break when it needs to break so
  • 00:10:07
    there's an ability to reassemble very
  • 00:10:10
    quickly with a different form which I
  • 00:10:11
    would is part of resilience and if your
  • 00:10:14
    existing structures can't break then
  • 00:10:16
    actually you can't reform see that's the
  • 00:10:20
    analogy of a child's bones if a child
  • 00:10:23
    breaks a bone and it is fragile because
  • 00:10:26
    it's it's a child's bone but then it
  • 00:10:29
    grows back more robust and actually
  • 00:10:32
    that's a great analogy for leadership
  • 00:10:34
    but then how do we achieve that with
  • 00:10:36
    leadership when leadership clearly fails
  • 00:10:39
    at some point in many organizations we
  • 00:10:42
    see that right now we needed to be able
  • 00:10:44
    to break and then reform even stronger
  • 00:10:47
    the challenge is this how do you stop
  • 00:10:50
    those people who be difficult role
  • 00:10:53
    though I did when I did the subdomain
  • 00:10:56
    models on cannabic one of the things we
  • 00:10:58
    we did on the chaos space is we said if
  • 00:11:01
    you face an unimaginable situation to
  • 00:11:04
    which you haven't got a response it's
  • 00:11:06
    better to recognize it and
  • 00:11:08
    that again so it's not that you may want
  • 00:11:11
    them to recover it's also you may want
  • 00:11:13
    to part the system to fail completely
  • 00:11:14
    and if the system continues after it's
  • 00:11:18
    after it's necessary failure point it
  • 00:11:20
    may prevent the change coming through in
  • 00:11:22
    time how about the concept you see
  • 00:11:27
    making me think because of all the
  • 00:11:28
    challenges we got in the u.s. at the
  • 00:11:30
    moment how do you what about the idea of
  • 00:11:32
    business leaders you know it's a weird
  • 00:11:35
    term but these executives in business
  • 00:11:37
    being elected for terms and only allowed
  • 00:11:40
    to serve one or two terms so you know
  • 00:11:44
    you've got this guy called Dave again
  • 00:11:49
    you come in we've talked about this
  • 00:11:50
    before
  • 00:11:50
    yeah you're focused on methods based on
  • 00:11:53
    social optimism and the assumption is
  • 00:11:54
    all about individuals if you have a crew
  • 00:11:57
    let's come back to where we started on
  • 00:11:58
    this stuff you can have different pilots
  • 00:12:00
    there's always a pilot but the different
  • 00:12:03
    person can be doing it that's that's
  • 00:12:05
    what that's a resilient system yeah but
  • 00:12:09
    also I think there's a there's a reason
  • 00:12:10
    why when you look at the top
  • 00:12:12
    organizations in the world a common
  • 00:12:17
    thing that you'll see is that the
  • 00:12:18
    founder still has something to do with
  • 00:12:20
    the organization so whether it's Amazon
  • 00:12:22
    whether it's Microsoft whether it's
  • 00:12:26
    Tesla whether it's berkshire hathaway
  • 00:12:30
    that coming constant involvement from
  • 00:12:35
    someone who's has got kind of a vision
  • 00:12:39
    and a need that exceeds a management to
  • 00:12:42
    seems to be a pattern for success over
  • 00:12:48
    maybe the short term CEO he's got like
  • 00:12:50
    an even focus or or a resume building
  • 00:12:53
    focus it's also the issue about do you
  • 00:12:57
    go for consensus building on consensus
  • 00:12:59
    build so in innovation consensus is
  • 00:13:02
    bloody dangerous yeah and again it's is
  • 00:13:05
    this how do you manage different things
  • 00:13:07
    in different spaces there are different
  • 00:13:09
    roles
  • 00:13:09
    I mean Pope Arthur Prada me God is a
  • 00:13:12
    universe and one of the reasons why one
  • 00:13:14
    of these wrong because he's trying to
  • 00:13:15
    create another universal now you
  • 00:13:19
    Universal I think I mean I'm coming back
  • 00:13:25
    to the biological makes a fool Dave I
  • 00:13:27
    think these um so a very interesting
  • 00:13:29
    article I came across recently is by a
  • 00:13:33
    guy called David woods who talks about
  • 00:13:36
    this notion of graceful extensibility I
  • 00:13:39
    don't know if you've come across it but
  • 00:13:41
    Alicia is your arrow actually introduced
  • 00:13:44
    me to do this last year in this I think
  • 00:13:48
    the other thing is they're different
  • 00:13:49
    kinds of adaptive capacity so you know
  • 00:13:53
    the the essence of this that I really
  • 00:13:55
    find really interesting is is they talk
  • 00:13:57
    about an organism and being fit for its
  • 00:14:02
    for its for it for its context to its
  • 00:14:04
    ecosystem and when you're almost in the
  • 00:14:07
    middle of of your she calls it an
  • 00:14:09
    adaptive space David woods this other
  • 00:14:12
    other language for it but when you're in
  • 00:14:13
    the middle of that adaptive space you're
  • 00:14:15
    kind of adapting your adaptive capacity
  • 00:14:17
    is around adapting for things that you
  • 00:14:20
    could plan for things that's quite
  • 00:14:21
    familiar but you can start approaching
  • 00:14:24
    the boundary of your adaptive space
  • 00:14:28
    where you almost need to start you need
  • 00:14:30
    to switch to a different form of
  • 00:14:32
    adaptive capacity where you're more able
  • 00:14:34
    to deal with surprise for example and
  • 00:14:39
    extend across that boundary to explore
  • 00:14:42
    it address and Possible's and there's an
  • 00:14:44
    inherent tension because the the
  • 00:14:46
    resources that you need to invest almost
  • 00:14:49
    to optimize for the current context that
  • 00:14:52
    you're in that your fitful it's
  • 00:14:55
    completely different to the resources
  • 00:14:56
    that you need when you're approaching
  • 00:14:57
    this boundary and these things are in
  • 00:15:00
    tension and one of the things that I
  • 00:15:02
    find quite interesting is where they
  • 00:15:04
    talk about if if you're especially in a
  • 00:15:06
    in a networked organization if the
  • 00:15:10
    awareness that you're approaching this
  • 00:15:12
    boundary is not salient to enough of the
  • 00:15:15
    nodes and the network or it's not not
  • 00:15:17
    enough of them are experiencing it they
  • 00:15:20
    resist making the investment for that
  • 00:15:22
    kind of capacity and I think we can see
  • 00:15:25
    that so our organizations that have
  • 00:15:27
    almost become to fit their over
  • 00:15:29
    optimized for the current context and in
  • 00:15:32
    trying to
  • 00:15:33
    that optimality we're reducing the the
  • 00:15:37
    resources that we need to be able to
  • 00:15:39
    deal with unexpected events or do you
  • 00:15:42
    know in Dave's language almost to
  • 00:15:43
    transform to UM I think the other thing
  • 00:15:46
    that I find interesting is in the in the
  • 00:15:48
    eco ecosystem resilience literature they
  • 00:15:51
    talk about regime shifts I think it's
  • 00:15:55
    just a different you know name almost
  • 00:15:56
    sort of phase shift but it's this idea
  • 00:15:59
    of small variables that we're not
  • 00:16:02
    necessarily monitoring creating what
  • 00:16:06
    looks like sudden tipping points but
  • 00:16:08
    actually if we knew what do what we were
  • 00:16:10
    looking for we could have seen it coming
  • 00:16:12
    now so how do we you know the way that
  • 00:16:15
    we prepare for some of these regime
  • 00:16:17
    shifts in the way that we create
  • 00:16:20
    adaptive capacity when we are kind of in
  • 00:16:22
    the middle of a most stable ecosystem
  • 00:16:25
    are completely different so I find that
  • 00:16:27
    quite interesting you know the the
  • 00:16:29
    tensions that that we need to navigate
  • 00:16:30
    how resources get allocated our drive
  • 00:16:34
    for optimization and efficiency when
  • 00:16:37
    things are stable undermines our ability
  • 00:16:39
    to adapt when things suddenly change I
  • 00:16:44
    think that that could be a really
  • 00:16:46
    interesting area for us to explore just
  • 00:16:51
    some of what listening to you Sonja but
  • 00:16:53
    also listen to what Dave was saying you
  • 00:16:56
    know I go back to some of the the stuff
  • 00:16:58
    I read that kata wrote some years ago
  • 00:17:00
    about what he used to call a dual
  • 00:17:02
    operating system because Dave stone
  • 00:17:04
    about crew resource management which is
  • 00:17:06
    this ability the organization to sort of
  • 00:17:09
    form and reform continuously based upon
  • 00:17:11
    its needs and and and what its going to
  • 00:17:13
    respond to but then we don't know lose
  • 00:17:16
    the hierarchy altogether because the
  • 00:17:18
    hierarchy with no hierarchy is you
  • 00:17:20
    saying in a crisis in chaos we have no
  • 00:17:22
    leadership and we have no way of
  • 00:17:24
    responding the network just tends to
  • 00:17:26
    bump into each other and get stressed so
  • 00:17:28
    Carter used to talk about a dual
  • 00:17:29
    operating system where you've got the
  • 00:17:31
    sort of network of teams which is you
  • 00:17:33
    CRM sort of idea but you still got a a
  • 00:17:36
    reasonable hierarchy to stop the lunatic
  • 00:17:38
    asylum
  • 00:17:39
    because we have to pay bills make sure
  • 00:17:41
    people's human resource needs are taken
  • 00:17:43
    care of and that type of thing and and I
  • 00:17:45
    started to draw a picture think
  • 00:17:47
    well you know whether it's Coty's model
  • 00:17:49
    or something different whether we could
  • 00:17:51
    have this this capacity which is a CRM
  • 00:17:54
    based system which is a network of teams
  • 00:17:56
    and then the hum the hierarchical side
  • 00:17:59
    where we need something whether that
  • 00:18:00
    could move into much more of an elective
  • 00:18:02
    model where you don't get your narcissus
  • 00:18:05
    who retain power for 25 years and drive
  • 00:18:08
    the ship how they want to drive it you
  • 00:18:10
    know iceberg right ahead pour on more
  • 00:18:12
    coal head towards it which is what we
  • 00:18:15
    see and so whether or not we can move to
  • 00:18:18
    because he is frozen well I might I
  • 00:18:33
    might add something so we we did some
  • 00:18:35
    crude research with some of our
  • 00:18:37
    customers very crude a little while ago
  • 00:18:41
    just looking at the number of value
  • 00:18:43
    governance roles so project management
  • 00:18:48
    coordination scheduling kind of the
  • 00:18:52
    roles that help value flow through a
  • 00:18:55
    matrix organization as opposed to the
  • 00:18:58
    number of value creation roles which are
  • 00:19:01
    the roles that you kind of put together
  • 00:19:03
    in a project or or in a cross-functional
  • 00:19:08
    team to to create value and we kind of
  • 00:19:13
    came up with this silly index that we
  • 00:19:14
    use nowadays called organizational BMI
  • 00:19:18
    which is basically the the ratio kind of
  • 00:19:23
    with that crude research we found that
  • 00:19:25
    the organizations that seem to be doing
  • 00:19:27
    things well we're running in about one
  • 00:19:29
    to five or better so one one value
  • 00:19:33
    government's relative about five value
  • 00:19:35
    creating rules and we've worked with
  • 00:19:38
    customers that have kind of almost up to
  • 00:19:43
    1 to 2 or 1 to 3 so you basically got
  • 00:19:48
    these poor people who are sitting there
  • 00:19:49
    trying to create value but they're
  • 00:19:51
    spending all their days
  • 00:19:54
    filling in status reports or or doing
  • 00:19:58
    timesheets or report
  • 00:20:00
    to some master that is obsessively there
  • 00:20:03
    to help them create value but is
  • 00:20:05
    actually taking them away from the very
  • 00:20:07
    function that they're asked to do and I
  • 00:20:12
    think this kind of being a bit of an
  • 00:20:13
    industry that's emerged about that but
  • 00:20:15
    what off what I've tended to find is
  • 00:20:17
    that as that ratio goes up the rigidity
  • 00:20:21
    of the organization the inflexibility
  • 00:20:24
    the inability to deliver value goes up
  • 00:20:28
    as well and coming back to what you were
  • 00:20:31
    saying so I mean it's it's kind of like
  • 00:20:34
    and some of it was into one of the
  • 00:20:36
    earlier conversations it's kind of like
  • 00:20:38
    it's very easy to add that capacity
  • 00:20:41
    because you can always say look I made a
  • 00:20:42
    project manager to do the business case
  • 00:20:44
    for the stuff that we haven't started
  • 00:20:45
    yet or I need to I'm running behind I
  • 00:20:48
    need to bring a scheduler in but it's
  • 00:20:50
    really hard to pull that out of the
  • 00:20:53
    system once it's in there but it just
  • 00:20:55
    becomes a perceived need I suppose
  • 00:20:59
    that's one of the reasons why I'm
  • 00:21:00
    particularly concerned about the
  • 00:21:02
    acquisition of disciplined agile by the
  • 00:21:05
    PMI because I've always said that if
  • 00:21:08
    you've got a vested interest in not
  • 00:21:10
    changing which the people in the project
  • 00:21:13
    management community do then you're not
  • 00:21:16
    going to change and a job for agile to
  • 00:21:20
    work effectively and for organizations
  • 00:21:22
    to be adaptive you need to strip out a
  • 00:21:26
    fair bit of that coordination costs and
  • 00:21:28
    that governance cost in order to let
  • 00:21:31
    value flow more easily yeah but there
  • 00:21:34
    are whole set of things we need to look
  • 00:21:35
    at on this all right so one is we need
  • 00:21:39
    to look at what happened in the 80s 90s
  • 00:21:40
    in that we switch from lifetime
  • 00:21:42
    employment so if you had people who
  • 00:21:45
    served an apprentice model through the
  • 00:21:47
    company they could be trusted to make
  • 00:21:48
    decisions because they knew people
  • 00:21:50
    they'd grown up in it is what I used to
  • 00:21:52
    call the matron case yeah so can't let
  • 00:21:55
    the matron picked up on all of the
  • 00:21:56
    pieces the other systems didn't because
  • 00:21:58
    she grown up in the hospital she knew
  • 00:22:00
    everybody knew everything it wasn't
  • 00:22:01
    explicit what happened in the 80s 90s as
  • 00:22:05
    we started to move people on to
  • 00:22:06
    short-term employment we started to
  • 00:22:08
    employ them for that we took an
  • 00:22:09
    engineering metaphor so it's now very
  • 00:22:13
    difficult for an organization to
  • 00:22:15
    delegate because you haven't build the
  • 00:22:17
    tacit and implicit knowledge and
  • 00:22:18
    connections for delegation to work and
  • 00:22:21
    that that's part of my problem without
  • 00:22:23
    all people there's no point in just
  • 00:22:25
    allocating to people just because
  • 00:22:26
    they're people you know they haven't got
  • 00:22:29
    the social infrastructure a role to
  • 00:22:30
    handle it which is why the bureaucracy
  • 00:22:33
    creeps in alright so I think that you
  • 00:22:37
    know that's a balancing act and we've
  • 00:22:38
    got to rethink that one in terms of the
  • 00:22:41
    way we build trust into processes
  • 00:22:44
    between diverse people rather than into
  • 00:22:46
    individuals so in a modern organization
  • 00:22:50
    I would never delegate to a person I
  • 00:22:52
    would delegate to a process or a
  • 00:22:53
    combination of people right and that
  • 00:22:57
    that becomes a as a way of rethinking
  • 00:22:59
    that right I think the other thing which
  • 00:23:02
    is interested in David woods is is the
  • 00:23:04
    whole point about graceful extensibility
  • 00:23:06
    is defined to avoid a system becoming
  • 00:23:08
    brittle that's his key dichotomy and you
  • 00:23:11
    can see the engineering metaphors coming
  • 00:23:14
    in because he sees integrate these
  • 00:23:15
    integrated systems engineering in
  • 00:23:17
    background so I'm actually thinking
  • 00:23:20
    human systems and I'll come back to our
  • 00:23:22
    starters sometimes systems need to be
  • 00:23:24
    brittle because they need to break early
  • 00:23:29
    and so for example if I take my trekking
  • 00:23:32
    poles this is a real case from the
  • 00:23:34
    weekend all right
  • 00:23:36
    the really expensive bit is the carbon
  • 00:23:39
    fiber pole so the tips are designed so
  • 00:23:42
    if you get twisted the tips will break
  • 00:23:44
    off because they're cheaper to replace I
  • 00:23:47
    mean they're designed to be brittle yeah
  • 00:23:50
    and I think we need to do that in
  • 00:23:52
    organisations we need to design some
  • 00:23:55
    structures which actually break
  • 00:23:57
    automatically if they face a context
  • 00:23:59
    they weren't designed for okay and I
  • 00:24:02
    think we keep having this belief in
  • 00:24:04
    continuity which is actually what's
  • 00:24:06
    dangerous so you could are not getting
  • 00:24:09
    mystical here and Nigel's arrived back
  • 00:24:12
    so I've got to be yeah you handled
  • 00:24:15
    tension you know Texan attitude to
  • 00:24:17
    religion I'm now going to be sensitive
  • 00:24:19
    about because I know he's likely to
  • 00:24:21
    exclude me from all sorts of
  • 00:24:23
    conversations if I don't pay attention
  • 00:24:25
    to it but
  • 00:24:26
    this concept of rebirth yeah and it's
  • 00:24:31
    quite interesting you look at symbiotic
  • 00:24:33
    species like Portuguese man-of-war or or
  • 00:24:36
    or species likes lima models which are
  • 00:24:38
    fascinating which can change from animal
  • 00:24:41
    to vegetable based on context it's the
  • 00:24:44
    ability to become something different
  • 00:24:46
    which is one of one of the key features
  • 00:24:49
    of resilience
  • 00:24:50
    yeah and that requires Britain oh it
  • 00:24:53
    requires us not to use engineering
  • 00:24:55
    metaphors but also to recognize this
  • 00:24:58
    long term human context so in light of
  • 00:25:00
    what I was making and Toyota used to
  • 00:25:02
    have this yeah what lifetime employment
  • 00:25:04
    does is it means you can delegate
  • 00:25:07
    because you know that somebody knows
  • 00:25:08
    people in those things in those process
  • 00:25:10
    you can have less bureaucracy the minute
  • 00:25:12
    you get rid of lifetime employment and
  • 00:25:14
    you just employed people based on skills
  • 00:25:16
    which is where our job is particularly
  • 00:25:18
    with the whole certification scam you
  • 00:25:20
    end up with more controls because
  • 00:25:22
    there's no naturally evolved process
  • 00:25:24
    which gives you trust
  • 00:25:25
    I should there's a case study for that
  • 00:25:27
    and talking about adaptive capacity my
  • 00:25:29
    entire internet connection died some now
  • 00:25:32
    connected via my cellular service and
  • 00:25:35
    then I couldn't add to switch computers
  • 00:25:37
    as well for some reason one computer
  • 00:25:38
    would work with the cell and it's funny
  • 00:25:40
    that Dave was talking about rebirth as I
  • 00:25:42
    came back there's an inference there but
  • 00:25:44
    you know how is a loom a for you one of
  • 00:25:50
    these days Nigel but on the Toyota think
  • 00:25:53
    that's a real truth ik so in the 70 we
  • 00:25:55
    had to oil crises in the 70s and Dave
  • 00:25:58
    and I are old enough to remember those
  • 00:25:59
    in the UK when gasoline was sort of
  • 00:26:02
    worth more than gold literally but at
  • 00:26:06
    that time Toyota got rid of a bunch of
  • 00:26:08
    people they they know are most companies
  • 00:26:10
    they sort of pruned when the inevitable
  • 00:26:13
    recession loomed because of the oil
  • 00:26:15
    crises and everybody was scrambling for
  • 00:26:18
    money and then it was over of course
  • 00:26:20
    within a year or two I mean these things
  • 00:26:21
    come and they go and then what they
  • 00:26:24
    found was they were not able to recover
  • 00:26:26
    as quickly because Toyota's way of
  • 00:26:30
    working I've described it before as a
  • 00:26:32
    cult I don't mean that in the in the
  • 00:26:34
    worst
  • 00:26:34
    connotations of the word but it's a
  • 00:26:37
    system in which it takes years to become
  • 00:26:39
    a
  • 00:26:40
    expert in years to understand it in and
  • 00:26:43
    if you suddenly rip out a big chunk of
  • 00:26:46
    it you can't just shove some people with
  • 00:26:48
    a bit of paper it's a two day
  • 00:26:49
    certificate back in and it all recovers
  • 00:26:51
    it takes years of understanding it's a
  • 00:26:53
    whole philosophy your whole way of being
  • 00:26:55
    the whole culture is the way we behave
  • 00:26:57
    the way you do things and and if you
  • 00:27:00
    suddenly disrupt that in a way that is
  • 00:27:03
    catastrophic
  • 00:27:04
    it takes a long recovery period and so
  • 00:27:07
    the lifetime unemployment thing tends to
  • 00:27:09
    be more of a Japanese thing but the
  • 00:27:12
    basics of it of have having people there
  • 00:27:15
    who know your systems long-term and can
  • 00:27:17
    be adaptive if there is a cut if there
  • 00:27:20
    is a crisis and actually in the 2008
  • 00:27:23
    whenever it was 2006 seven eight
  • 00:27:25
    recession that led into sort of 2010
  • 00:27:28
    onwards when that started to her up and
  • 00:27:31
    Toyota was able to adapt they didn't
  • 00:27:33
    fire any of their permanent members of
  • 00:27:35
    staff they were able to adapt repurpose
  • 00:27:37
    them retrain them rescale them or reuse
  • 00:27:40
    them in some of the way even down to
  • 00:27:41
    community projects the downside of that
  • 00:27:44
    of course is that Toyota is a heavy
  • 00:27:46
    staff or organization away from the
  • 00:27:49
    manufacturing floor when you get into
  • 00:27:51
    the offices and the sort of non
  • 00:27:53
    manufacturing parts it is about 85%
  • 00:27:56
    outsource which means that they can keep
  • 00:28:00
    their employees their team members
  • 00:28:02
    employed because they can shed 85
  • 00:28:05
    percent of the workforce but that does
  • 00:28:07
    have some consequences because it means
  • 00:28:09
    a lot of these people don't care about
  • 00:28:11
    the Toyota way of doing things nor do
  • 00:28:13
    they ever take the time to learn it or
  • 00:28:15
    become skilled in it and so you end up
  • 00:28:18
    seeing the organization as my
  • 00:28:19
    observations run more like a traditional
  • 00:28:23
    large corporate organization and it
  • 00:28:26
    doesn't have all the values and
  • 00:28:28
    behaviors and capabilities that you see
  • 00:28:31
    on the production floor which is where
  • 00:28:32
    they make the vehicles this is a
  • 00:28:35
    balancing act isn't it I think that's
  • 00:28:37
    what organizations didn't do so we saw
  • 00:28:39
    the same with outsourcing yeah hand over
  • 00:28:41
    your whole computing to somebody all
  • 00:28:43
    right and then discover what service
  • 00:28:45
    level contracts really mean yeah and it
  • 00:28:48
    was actually one of the motivations when
  • 00:28:50
    connecting was originally created as I
  • 00:28:51
    was going back over the history
  • 00:28:53
    recently right was where I was working
  • 00:28:55
    on the next generation outsourcing
  • 00:28:57
    strategy and it was kind of like and I
  • 00:29:00
    was saying to IBM which IBM didn't like
  • 00:29:02
    it was one of my run-ins with Jimmy yeah
  • 00:29:04
    we need to withdraw from outsourcing
  • 00:29:07
    mission-critical work because that needs
  • 00:29:10
    to stay in the company yeah and they're
  • 00:29:13
    going to realize the error and we're
  • 00:29:14
    going to get a reverse process so you
  • 00:29:17
    need to create these much more fluid
  • 00:29:19
    structures and it's what's the balance
  • 00:29:21
    all right so if I was dealing with
  • 00:29:25
    something saying core manufacturing yeah
  • 00:29:28
    you probably want quite long-term
  • 00:29:29
    employment whereas uni-level accountants
  • 00:29:32
    know right
  • 00:29:33
    and it's it's getting there is
  • 00:29:36
    understanding this both Allen type
  • 00:29:38
    approach rather than either all type
  • 00:29:40
    approach and again part of the problem
  • 00:29:42
    with agile is that a bunch of bloody
  • 00:29:44
    extremists you have everything of
  • 00:29:47
    everything which has happened in is why
  • 00:29:48
    they keep producing buddy you know to to
  • 00:29:51
    column charts in which everything evil
  • 00:29:54
    is on the left and everything glorious
  • 00:29:56
    and wonderful and brightest is on the
  • 00:29:58
    right and it's they don't realize it
  • 00:30:01
    they need both yeah yeah I saw your
  • 00:30:03
    comments on one or two of those that
  • 00:30:04
    popped up the other day and I just hit
  • 00:30:07
    never I see them all right
  • 00:30:08
    trying to drive them by division its
  • 00:30:12
    politics in general though both sides
  • 00:30:16
    neither side exists people knew their
  • 00:30:19
    theology I mean monarchy ISM which is
  • 00:30:22
    he's actually the most dominant heresy
  • 00:30:25
    in the history of Christianity and it
  • 00:30:27
    still applies in the states in the u.s.
  • 00:30:29
    he's kind of belief that everything is
  • 00:30:31
    either absolutely bad are absolutely
  • 00:30:33
    good and you know it's it's a common
  • 00:30:37
    belief and it's a really scary one the
  • 00:30:39
    u.s. does that to great great aplomb by
  • 00:30:43
    the way whether it's bad or good they do
  • 00:30:46
    it to extreme excess he seems like the
  • 00:30:50
    UK Europe has this balance of equally
  • 00:30:52
    bad or good but in the u.s. you're
  • 00:30:54
    either incredibly bad or incredibly good
  • 00:30:56
    there's no happy medium which seems to
  • 00:30:59
    be a challenge at the moment in
  • 00:31:02
    societies interesting challenges we can
  • 00:31:04
    set up an old virgin Seon crusade
  • 00:31:06
    to deal with organizational design and
  • 00:31:09
    if you know your history you'll know
  • 00:31:11
    that that can be quite a cruel process
  • 00:31:13
    as they topped off in my prime when I
  • 00:31:18
    was talking about Cotter and jewel
  • 00:31:20
    operating systems which I'm sure Dave
  • 00:31:23
    was pleased I got chopped off in the
  • 00:31:25
    middle of that where did that lead us
  • 00:31:27
    did we come up with any sort of
  • 00:31:29
    practical approaches for organizations
  • 00:31:33
    trying to achieve a capacity that is
  • 00:31:35
    truly adaptive I don't think we we
  • 00:31:41
    really got there or so fast Nigel I am
  • 00:31:45
    we were waiting for you to get to that
  • 00:31:47
    level of convergence but I think what we
  • 00:31:49
    were we were talking about well we did
  • 00:31:52
    plan one of the things that Dave said
  • 00:31:53
    that I wanted to just explore a bit more
  • 00:31:55
    is this notion of designing something to
  • 00:31:59
    be brittle and to break you know almost
  • 00:32:02
    at the right moment when it is required
  • 00:32:05
    and I I just thought for the record I I
  • 00:32:09
    don't really from what I've read of
  • 00:32:12
    Woods's work I don't think that he is
  • 00:32:15
    really talking about things persisting
  • 00:32:18
    necessarily it's about adapting to be
  • 00:32:22
    fit to an entirely new context so to my
  • 00:32:24
    mind that also then includes this idea
  • 00:32:27
    of rebirth for transforming but one of
  • 00:32:29
    the things that's really interesting
  • 00:32:30
    there in terms of designing something
  • 00:32:32
    that is that is designed almost to break
  • 00:32:36
    or that is designed to be brittle at the
  • 00:32:38
    right time I think something else that's
  • 00:32:40
    really interesting is is if you see an
  • 00:32:43
    organization as a network so as a you
  • 00:32:48
    know as a distributed network there's
  • 00:32:51
    also this notion of because adaptive
  • 00:32:53
    capacity and I think this is where we
  • 00:32:54
    ended with jab last time which I I'm
  • 00:32:56
    really sad that he's not here but
  • 00:32:58
    adaptive capacity I think he he said
  • 00:33:01
    it's like a budget you know you can run
  • 00:33:02
    out of it and so there's this Woods
  • 00:33:06
    talks about this idea of it becoming
  • 00:33:08
    saturated and in a network there's also
  • 00:33:12
    this idea of reciprocity so maybe you
  • 00:33:16
    know so I guess one of the things that
  • 00:33:17
    I'm curious about is if you do this
  • 00:33:20
    find something to break or you design
  • 00:33:21
    brittleness there's something that needs
  • 00:33:25
    to be sacrificed there and it might be
  • 00:33:27
    that one unit in the network is able to
  • 00:33:31
    almost bolster the adaptive capacity of
  • 00:33:34
    a neighbor but you know this so there's
  • 00:33:37
    a there's an interesting leadership
  • 00:33:39
    aspect to this as well is you know if
  • 00:33:40
    you are almost in that coordinating role
  • 00:33:43
    how do you choose where the sacrifice
  • 00:33:48
    needs to happen where the brittleness
  • 00:33:49
    will be built-in and I think the other
  • 00:33:57
    thing is you know when you are in a
  • 00:33:59
    stable ecosystem if you want to call it
  • 00:34:01
    that and people can't really see the
  • 00:34:02
    need for it how do you convince people
  • 00:34:07
    that that you know that there's a need
  • 00:34:10
    for it you know they're all these it
  • 00:34:11
    seems like multiple tensions and both
  • 00:34:14
    ends as David said I mean tangled
  • 00:34:18
    tangled networks all their networks you
  • 00:34:22
    know and I think the level of
  • 00:34:23
    entanglement changes saturation which is
  • 00:34:26
    something his paper doesn't pick up on
  • 00:34:28
    yeah so if you if you change that the
  • 00:34:32
    type of entanglement you get a greater
  • 00:34:34
    capacity to absorb things all right
  • 00:34:36
    the other thing is that I disagree we
  • 00:34:38
    drove on this but we can get on to it I
  • 00:34:40
    don't think there's a limited budget
  • 00:34:41
    okay I think it's the same issue as
  • 00:34:44
    knowledge right knowledge isn't a
  • 00:34:46
    limited quantity is not that once you've
  • 00:34:48
    used it up it out flows it's just you
  • 00:34:51
    reach a point where you have to get
  • 00:34:53
    literal phase shift and the phase shift
  • 00:34:54
    concept is key and that's why I'm saying
  • 00:34:58
    the degree of brittleness is important
  • 00:35:00
    so the system has to be able to go
  • 00:35:01
    through a significant phase shift which
  • 00:35:04
    actually in a crisis quite interest what
  • 00:35:07
    happens in the crisis is the energy
  • 00:35:09
    costs have changed drops significantly
  • 00:35:12
    because the context has made people
  • 00:35:15
    prepared to do things differently and
  • 00:35:16
    you can see that on a micro level on day
  • 00:35:19
    to day basis you know you get people
  • 00:35:21
    fighting firm I mean I'm not making a
  • 00:35:23
    judgment call here but you get trade
  • 00:35:25
    unions who when the factory is about to
  • 00:35:27
    be closed down suddenly become very
  • 00:35:29
    cooperative on changing pension schemes
  • 00:35:31
    whereas previously were threatened they
  • 00:35:33
    were
  • 00:35:34
    threaten to strike over them yeah so
  • 00:35:36
    human systems have this capacity to
  • 00:35:38
    change their entanglement which changes
  • 00:35:42
    a saturation if I'm using woods terms
  • 00:35:44
    yeah and sometimes that's a break and
  • 00:35:48
    reconstruction now we're going through a
  • 00:35:51
    lot of that in industry at the moment
  • 00:35:53
    I'm in the high street I'm in the UK I'm
  • 00:35:55
    not sure about the states yet all right
  • 00:35:57
    but the high street in the UK is not
  • 00:35:59
    going to come back in terms of the big
  • 00:36:02
    stores because but interesting the small
  • 00:36:05
    stores may survive better at the small
  • 00:36:09
    specialist one so we could see a
  • 00:36:10
    resurrection of high street shopping a
  • 00:36:12
    destruction of out of town you know and
  • 00:36:15
    you know that those are sort of patents
  • 00:36:18
    society needs to be aware of but an
  • 00:36:21
    unwillingness to let go is one of the
  • 00:36:24
    reasons things don't change for us to
  • 00:36:25
    know which is were always continue to
  • 00:36:29
    draw my picture here which is back to
  • 00:36:32
    the sort of our idea that Cotter had
  • 00:36:34
    floated some years ago is that if you've
  • 00:36:37
    got this sort of crew that can be a
  • 00:36:41
    continuous Learning Network where
  • 00:36:44
    they're where we've got continuous
  • 00:36:45
    investment in learning into one of your
  • 00:36:47
    earlier points David and a low
  • 00:36:49
    conversation we need generalists not
  • 00:36:51
    specialists and we seem to have shoe on
  • 00:36:53
    the selves into a world of specialists
  • 00:36:55
    where we've got mono skilled employees
  • 00:36:58
    mono skilled team members where we need
  • 00:37:01
    people with multiple skills and able to
  • 00:37:03
    go across a range of different sort of
  • 00:37:07
    disciplines so we need this sort of
  • 00:37:09
    heavily or Tamannaah are heavily
  • 00:37:12
    autonomous but this this network of
  • 00:37:13
    teams that can constantly reform in this
  • 00:37:16
    crew resource management way which we
  • 00:37:19
    have a continuous investment in learning
  • 00:37:21
    in this learning organization is what is
  • 00:37:23
    what Toyota call it that can respond and
  • 00:37:27
    reform adaptively depending upon what
  • 00:37:29
    the demand is that called upon them and
  • 00:37:32
    then in the hierarchy side to create
  • 00:37:34
    that fragility to create that that that
  • 00:37:37
    that brittleness in that rebirth then
  • 00:37:39
    we've got to have some sort of elected
  • 00:37:40
    or elective type of leadership where as
  • 00:37:43
    a CEO CEO doesn't become a CEO
  • 00:37:47
    for decades or the because what ends up
  • 00:37:50
    happening then is you end up and I've
  • 00:37:53
    experienced this with narcissistic power
  • 00:37:55
    centers that will not make decisions
  • 00:37:59
    that need to be made and will not change
  • 00:38:01
    their direction because they're single
  • 00:38:03
    mindedly this sort of fixation bias and
  • 00:38:05
    what they want to achieve and no matter
  • 00:38:07
    how great we make the capability in the
  • 00:38:10
    organization that capability can't
  • 00:38:12
    function because the leadership
  • 00:38:14
    constrains it or inhibits it in a way
  • 00:38:17
    that prevents it from being adaptive how
  • 00:38:21
    you're bringing Cotter into this because
  • 00:38:23
    kata has the famous eight stages which
  • 00:38:25
    are terribly linear which involve vision
  • 00:38:29
    vision communication and execution so
  • 00:38:31
    it's kind of like added 1970s strategy
  • 00:38:34
    and I don't know why everybody takes it
  • 00:38:35
    seriously anymore so you're honestly I'm
  • 00:38:38
    think I'm not seeing so what is it
  • 00:38:40
    no it just ease it was just this concept
  • 00:38:43
    of a dual operating system where you've
  • 00:38:45
    got the hierarchy looking after the
  • 00:38:48
    needs that hierarchy is needed for and
  • 00:38:51
    then you've got this network of teams
  • 00:38:53
    which what he army of volunteers which
  • 00:38:57
    people from the hierarchy who
  • 00:38:58
    voluntarily put themselves into the
  • 00:39:00
    network for this adaptive capability now
  • 00:39:03
    that's as far as I take the analogy or
  • 00:39:05
    as far as I take the metaphor it's just
  • 00:39:08
    that idea that we need both but one
  • 00:39:12
    becomes an inhibiting constraint to the
  • 00:39:15
    other because this never changes the
  • 00:39:17
    hierarchy is pretty rigid and fixed
  • 00:39:20
    sometimes for decades but for many many
  • 00:39:23
    years so it doesn't matter about the
  • 00:39:24
    fluidity and the capability within the
  • 00:39:27
    network the hierarchy is constraining it
  • 00:39:30
    or inhibiting it with an inhibiting
  • 00:39:32
    constraint and it's that bit I'm
  • 00:39:34
    thinking of a way to get rid of nothing
  • 00:39:36
    is to look at what's the unit of
  • 00:39:37
    analysis so if the unit of analysis is
  • 00:39:40
    the system or the organization that I
  • 00:39:42
    think that's problematic if on the other
  • 00:39:45
    hand the unit of analysis is for example
  • 00:39:47
    constraints then it becomes less
  • 00:39:49
    problematic because you manage the
  • 00:39:52
    constraints and that gives freedom for
  • 00:39:54
    emergence which is kind of where we're
  • 00:39:55
    going with complexity theory in
  • 00:39:57
    organizations now stop talking about the
  • 00:40:00
    system as a whole
  • 00:40:01
    and start to identify constraints change
  • 00:40:03
    constraints see what happens
  • 00:40:05
    have constraints which a brittle have
  • 00:40:07
    constraints which you know fluid and so
  • 00:40:10
    on yeah and I think part of the problem
  • 00:40:12
    is and it comes back to the engineering
  • 00:40:14
    metaphor issue right yeah an engineer is
  • 00:40:17
    a constantly designing a whole system
  • 00:40:19
    and that's one of the other problems
  • 00:40:20
    with software it's kinda like and this
  • 00:40:22
    is where we came on scaffolding at one
  • 00:40:24
    point right is you're you're trying to
  • 00:40:27
    create designs which doesn't require you
  • 00:40:30
    to know the end point and which are
  • 00:40:33
    doesn't require you to work out what the
  • 00:40:35
    optimal structure is you want the system
  • 00:40:37
    to work that out for yourself and I
  • 00:40:40
    haven't got I mean if I was a Talib I
  • 00:40:42
    would now produce a catch phrase a book
  • 00:40:44
    cover and produce a best-selling book
  • 00:40:46
    comprising ninety percent invective and
  • 00:40:48
    tempers and novelty around that concept
  • 00:40:51
    that it's not anti fragile it's
  • 00:40:54
    something different I think you know
  • 00:40:58
    just tacking on to what you were saying
  • 00:41:00
    about you know electing people for
  • 00:41:03
    limited periods you know into the
  • 00:41:05
    hierarchy you know I think some of just
  • 00:41:11
    speaking from our political context some
  • 00:41:13
    of our biggest problems comes from they
  • 00:41:14
    because then people act with a very
  • 00:41:17
    short term view you know they've got
  • 00:41:19
    this for years in mind you know a new
  • 00:41:21
    person comes in they reinvent everything
  • 00:41:23
    you know so I think it it's very much a
  • 00:41:26
    contextual I think it would it would
  • 00:41:28
    differ from context to context but I
  • 00:41:31
    don't know if that would necessarily
  • 00:41:35
    solve the problem I think and the other
  • 00:41:38
    thing is this this idea of a learning
  • 00:41:40
    organization or this you know continuous
  • 00:41:43
    learning this brings us back to that
  • 00:41:45
    inherent tension between efficiency and
  • 00:41:48
    optimizing for your present kind of
  • 00:41:51
    context and success versus creating this
  • 00:41:54
    resilience or adaptive capacity or
  • 00:41:56
    whatever we're calling it because in
  • 00:41:58
    most of the companies where I work
  • 00:41:59
    people have no time to learn you know
  • 00:42:02
    all of the in event the these
  • 00:42:04
    organizations they make udemy available
  • 00:42:06
    to everybody and you know they've got
  • 00:42:08
    all these wonderful things up on the
  • 00:42:09
    walls like we're learning and people are
  • 00:42:12
    doing the
  • 00:42:13
    jobs of three or four people because you
  • 00:42:15
    know they let people go and they've got
  • 00:42:16
    hiring freezes so when must we learn I
  • 00:42:20
    think you know that is so we've stripped
  • 00:42:22
    all of the slack out of our
  • 00:42:24
    organizations and I think and you know
  • 00:42:28
    this kind of brings me back to the point
  • 00:42:29
    is when things are going well and we're
  • 00:42:31
    on this heavily this focus on on
  • 00:42:34
    effectiveness and cost-cutting etcetera
  • 00:42:36
    etcetera how do we maintain this and so
  • 00:42:40
    that we don't strip all the the the
  • 00:42:44
    slack out so that we do maintain you
  • 00:42:47
    know some kind of space for people that
  • 00:42:51
    you learn it's a true you yeah I mean
  • 00:42:54
    you've come hit on the key points and I
  • 00:42:56
    wrote something about this a few months
  • 00:42:57
    ago about being too lean and the fact
  • 00:43:00
    that people have abused what lean
  • 00:43:02
    actually means and there's this whole
  • 00:43:03
    nonsense debate about TPS and lean being
  • 00:43:06
    different things and actually inside
  • 00:43:08
    Toyota we talked we talked about lean we
  • 00:43:11
    use the word lean all the time so it
  • 00:43:12
    tends to be the people have never worked
  • 00:43:14
    a Toyota seem to have a problem with the
  • 00:43:16
    term but the reality of it is is that we
  • 00:43:19
    we use lean as a way that you just
  • 00:43:21
    described to remove people and to push
  • 00:43:24
    the burden to offshore somewhere whether
  • 00:43:27
    it was China or India or wherever some
  • 00:43:30
    other country which was lower cost for
  • 00:43:32
    manufacturing but we didn't have
  • 00:43:34
    resilient or a bus supply chains and we
  • 00:43:36
    didn't create that that cait that that
  • 00:43:39
    sort of resilience and robustness in
  • 00:43:40
    organizations where we are and I was
  • 00:43:42
    talking to an organization the other day
  • 00:43:44
    where their major clients people in
  • 00:43:47
    America
  • 00:43:48
    yeah they have no capacity in America
  • 00:43:51
    because everything has to be kept in
  • 00:43:52
    another country to keep the cost down
  • 00:43:53
    and then as soon as you disrupt the
  • 00:43:56
    supply chain of the logistics you
  • 00:43:57
    suddenly can't supply your customers so
  • 00:43:59
    your customers now in a mess and you're
  • 00:44:01
    in a mess because this whole thing was
  • 00:44:03
    too brittle there was no to use the term
  • 00:44:06
    again adaptive capacity was no way they
  • 00:44:08
    could adapt to that so when we came to
  • 00:44:10
    lean and I heard a phrase that was
  • 00:44:12
    coined in the UK Dave by somebody been
  • 00:44:15
    interviewed called economic sovereignty
  • 00:44:17
    where you know this was more looking at
  • 00:44:20
    a country level where basically or
  • 00:44:23
    countries are now having to sort of look
  • 00:44:25
    at local sort of eken
  • 00:44:27
    vyx sovereign tree rather than the sort
  • 00:44:28
    of global picture which is where they're
  • 00:44:31
    having elmerita some of my notes are
  • 00:44:32
    scribbling on this the other day because
  • 00:44:33
    what's happened is the just-in-time
  • 00:44:36
    mentality was just too late and and
  • 00:44:40
    actually if people study Kanban
  • 00:44:41
    correctly and study what oh no did then
  • 00:44:44
    we're talking about having sufficient
  • 00:44:45
    buffer in the system to meet the
  • 00:44:48
    just-in-time demand not eliminate all
  • 00:44:50
    the buffer which is what everybody did
  • 00:44:52
    and shove it 5,000 miles away and then
  • 00:44:55
    assume that was never gonna be any
  • 00:44:57
    fragility in that supply chain which of
  • 00:44:59
    course has now been proven so but this
  • 00:45:02
    whole mentality of we're too busy to
  • 00:45:04
    learn were too busy being busy to do
  • 00:45:06
    anything else has this nonsense has got
  • 00:45:08
    to stop and what this working from home
  • 00:45:10
    has taught us is that a lot of the stuff
  • 00:45:13
    we used to do in offices which had no
  • 00:45:16
    value isn't being done right now because
  • 00:45:19
    we haven't got the capability to do all
  • 00:45:22
    this wasteful nonsense so what are we
  • 00:45:24
    going to do when all this pandemic so
  • 00:45:26
    we're all going to shuffle back to the
  • 00:45:27
    office and then continue with all this
  • 00:45:29
    wasteful crap we used to do before or
  • 00:45:32
    we're gonna recognize that a lot of that
  • 00:45:33
    bureaucracy and red tape we're
  • 00:45:35
    inhibiting constraints and now we're
  • 00:45:37
    still focusing on enabling constraints
  • 00:45:39
    and actually repurposing that capability
  • 00:45:41
    but if people think that they can take a
  • 00:45:43
    you know get a certificate in one skill
  • 00:45:45
    and that will serve them well for the
  • 00:45:47
    rest of their life and their
  • 00:45:49
    organization's life they're delusional
  • 00:45:51
    they really need to be investing in
  • 00:45:53
    continuous learning and the whole Toyota
  • 00:45:56
    engineer model if you look at the chief
  • 00:45:57
    engineer model these over a period of
  • 00:45:59
    years they do every every type of job in
  • 00:46:02
    the entire lifecycle of that product
  • 00:46:05
    that they're going to be a chief
  • 00:46:06
    engineer for but we don't seem to do
  • 00:46:09
    that in other parts of the organization
  • 00:46:10
    Dave if there's another related issue
  • 00:46:13
    here which is the danger of professional
  • 00:46:15
    management in some areas so the example
  • 00:46:20
    I often give is by going to an American
  • 00:46:22
    Hospital the the guy in charge of the
  • 00:46:24
    hospital or the woman in charge of the
  • 00:46:25
    hospital generally comes in wearing the
  • 00:46:27
    white coat having been on the wards
  • 00:46:29
    because they're all doctors if I go into
  • 00:46:31
    a British Hospital yeah and the
  • 00:46:33
    advantage is I can go in without her
  • 00:46:35
    getting a bill that if we go back for
  • 00:46:37
    the moment
  • 00:46:39
    basically the manager is wearing a suit
  • 00:46:42
    surrounded by half a dozen
  • 00:46:43
    administrators because they've gone down
  • 00:46:46
    a professional management route and the
  • 00:46:48
    Americans very sensible they have lots
  • 00:46:50
    of people like a lien in the fence TV
  • 00:46:52
    series and I think we don't do enough
  • 00:46:55
    for that it was always a joke - one of
  • 00:46:57
    the reasons the British car industry
  • 00:46:58
    failed even in the German ownership is
  • 00:47:01
    in German German industry they assume
  • 00:47:03
    the chief engineer will be the chief
  • 00:47:04
    executive officer so when that in
  • 00:47:07
    Britain they assumed the chief
  • 00:47:08
    accountant was the chief executive
  • 00:47:10
    officer so when a chief engineer came in
  • 00:47:12
    nobody took him seriously
  • 00:47:13
    that was my remembering the Uni part
  • 00:47:16
    explaining that to me so I think that
  • 00:47:18
    and it comes back to his issue there are
  • 00:47:19
    some things where in order to be
  • 00:47:21
    effective you have to know things and
  • 00:47:23
    this is my about adaptation of Fulani we
  • 00:47:26
    always know more than we can say we will
  • 00:47:28
    we'll say more than we can write down
  • 00:47:29
    and that's kind of a spectrum and where
  • 00:47:33
    you are on that actually is critical to
  • 00:47:35
    organizational design so that there are
  • 00:47:38
    some things without a 10 or 15 year of
  • 00:47:40
    friendship you just can't make the
  • 00:47:42
    decisions you just can't do it
  • 00:47:43
    yeah or you'll create artificial
  • 00:47:45
    processes around them yes so that kind
  • 00:47:48
    of brings us to the end of the time box
  • 00:47:50
    I'm not sure we're necessarily got into
  • 00:47:53
    some of the practical aspects that I was
  • 00:47:55
    hoping because let me tell you any even
  • 00:48:05
    number software releases are usually
  • 00:48:07
    shitty and not very good releases are
  • 00:48:11
    ever any good so this is probably an
  • 00:48:13
    example of those even number and they
  • 00:48:16
    mean hours after wash mountains where
  • 00:48:18
    I've suffered near fatal injury I feel
  • 00:48:20
    this is there I will be alright so thank
  • 00:48:26
    you so much Pete almond being
  • 00:48:27
    misgendered I haven't hopefully we're
  • 00:48:29
    getting back for the next one yeah take
  • 00:48:32
    care of yourselves and yeah particularly
  • 00:48:35
    you Nigel in the States at the moment
  • 00:48:37
    must be Coulson
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