00:30:40
>> Steve: LAST FALL, ONTARIO'S
INDEPENDENT ADVISOR ON
CORRECTIONS REFORM ISSUED THE
00:30:43
SECOND OF TWO DETAILED REPORTS
RECOMMENDING FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE
TO THE HOW PROVINCE RUNS ITS
00:30:49
PRISON SYSTEM.
00:30:50
ONE OF THE POINTS HE FLAGGED FOR
ACTION WAS THE
OVER-REPRESENTATION OF
00:30:54
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN CUSTODY.
00:30:57
HOWARD SAPERS ISSUED THOSE
REPORTS.
00:30:59
PRIOR TO HIS ROLE ADVISING
ONTARIO ON CORRECTIONS REFORM,
HE WAS THE CORRECTIONAL
00:31:03
INVESTIGATOR OF CANADA.
00:31:04
ALSO WITH US TONIGHT TO CONSIDER
THIS ISSUE:
PAMELA PALMATER, CHAIR IN
00:31:08
INDIGENOUS GOVERNANCE AT RYERSON
UNIVERSITY.
00:31:12
WE ARE DELIGHTED TO HAVE BOTH OF
YOU BACK IN OUR STUDIO TONIGHT
FOR WHAT IS OBVIOUSLY A TIMELY
00:31:17
AND IMPORTANT CONVERSATION.
00:31:18
YOU BOTH KNOW THESE NUMBERS ALL
TOO WELL, BUT LET'S SHARE THEM
WITH OUR AUDIENCE.
00:31:23
SHELDON, BRING THESE UP, IF YOU
WOULD.
00:31:24
WHILE ONLY 3% OF CANADA'S
POPULATION IS INDIGENOUS, FULLY
27.4% OF OUR PRISON POPULATION
00:31:31
IS INDIGENOUS.
00:31:33
AND LET'S SHOW SOME MORE NUMBERS
NOW.
00:31:35
THIS IS IN THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO WHERE 2% OF THE
PROVINCE'S POPULATION IS
00:31:40
INDIGENOUS, BUT 13% OF ONTARIO'S
PRISON POPULATION IS INDIGENOUS,
AND 37.6% OF WOMEN IN FEDERAL
00:31:48
CUSTODY ARE INDIGENOUS.
00:31:53
THIS DISPROPORTIONATE
OVERINCARCERATION FOR INDIGENOUS
PEOPLE HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR
00:31:58
DECADES.
00:31:59
START US OFF.
00:31:59
YOU'VE STUDIED THIS INTENSELY.
00:32:01
WHY IS IT HAPPENING?
00:32:03
>> Howard Sapers: WELL,
THERE'S SO MANY REASONS.
00:32:05
THERE'S SO MANY REASONS.
00:32:06
WE CAN START WITH COLONIAL
CONTACT.
00:32:09
WE CAN START WITH COLONIALISM.
00:32:11
THESE ARE LINGERING EFFECTS OF
COLONIALISM.
00:32:14
THERE'S NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT.
00:32:15
WE OFTEN TALK ABOUT SYSTEMIC
DISCRIMINATION, BUT WHAT
SYSTEMIC DISCRIMINATION OFTEN
00:32:22
STARTS WITH ARE POLICIES AND
PROGRAMS AND LAWS THAT MAYBE
WEREN'T INTENDED TO BE RACIST OR
00:32:28
BIASED, BUT END UP IN THEIR
IMPLEMENTATION, AND SOMETIMES
THEY'RE EVEN RACE-DRIVEN.
00:32:34
AND SO WHAT WE HAVE IS WE HAVE A
POPULATION IN CANADA THAT HAS
SUFFERED LOSS OF CULTURE, LOSS
00:32:41
OF LANGUAGE, DISPOSSESSION FROM
LAND.
00:32:45
THEY'VE ACTUALLY -- THERE'S
ACTUALLY BEEN RACE-BASED
LEGISLATION.
00:32:52
AND IT'S NOT JUST CURRENT.
00:32:55
IT'S INTERGENERATIONAL.
00:32:58
SO YOU HAVE FAMILY TRAUMA, YOU
HAVE FAMILY DYSFUNCTION, YOU
HAVE COMMUNITY DYSFUNCTION, YOU
00:33:03
HAVE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE
REELING FROM SUICIDE OR FROM
ADDICTION OR FROM CHRONIC
00:33:08
UNEMPLOYMENT OR UNDEREMPLOYMENT
AND HOUSING SHORTAGES AND THOSE
COMMUNITIES DO NOT CREATE
00:33:11
HEALTHY INDIVIDUALS.
00:33:12
>> Steve: THAT MAY EXPLAIN --
PAMELA, LET ME GET YOU TO
AMPLIFY ON IT ANYWAY.
00:33:18
SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ASK,
WHY WOULD SOMETHING THAT MAY
HAVE HAPPENED 100 OR 200 YEARS
00:33:23
AGO HAVE AN IMPACT ON SOMEBODY
TODAY?
00:33:26
>> Pamela Palmater: THE SHORT
ANSWER TO THAT IS THAT IT'S
STILL HAPPENING TODAY.
00:33:30
INDIAN POLICY, SINCE ITS
CREATION, HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT
REMOVING INDIANS.
00:33:35
REMOVING INDIANS OUT OF THE WAY
FOR DEVELOPMENT, RAIL ROADS,
SETTLEMENTS, AND ALL THAT STUFF.
00:33:39
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FORCED
STERILIZATION, SCALPING LAWS,
THE MORE SEVERE KIND OF REMOVAL,
00:33:44
AND THEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS.
00:33:47
TAKING INDIANS, MOVING THEM OUT
OF THE WAY AND TRYING TO
ASSIMILATE THEM INTO THE BODY
00:33:51
POPULATION.
00:33:52
PRISONS HAVE BECOME ESSENTIALLY
THE NEW RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS.
00:33:55
THAT ARE PEOPLE THAT GO STRAIGHT
FROM FOSTER CARE RIGHT INTO
YOUTH CORRECTIONS, RIGHT INTO
00:33:59
PRISON.
00:34:00
IT'S A COMPLETE PIPELINE.
00:34:01
AND THEN THERE'S OTHER PEOPLE
THAT ARE IMPRISONED FOR
POLITICAL REASONS: PROTESTS,
00:34:07
DEFENDING LAND, DEFENDING WATER.
00:34:09
ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
00:34:09
IF ALL OF THOSE THINGS HAD
STOPPED 200 YEARS AGO, WE'D BE
WELL ON THE WAY TO HEALING.
00:34:14
>> Steve: BUT THEY HAVEN'T.
00:34:16
>> BUT THEY HAVEN'T STOPPED.
00:34:17
AND I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS VERY
DIRECT.
00:34:19
IT IS VERY RACIST.
00:34:20
AND WE'VE HAD NUMEROUS
COMMISSIONS AND INQUIRIES THAT
LOOKED AT JUSTICE WITH REGARDS
00:34:25
TO INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AND THEY
HAVE ALL CONCLUDED THAT THE
ISSUE IS RACISM.
00:34:29
>> Steve: WHY IS THE FEMALE
POPULATION GOING UP SO
SIGNIFICANTLY IN PRISONS?
00:34:34
>> WELL, I THINK HISTORICALLY
INDIGENOUS WOMEN HAVE ALWAYS
BEEN TARGETED.
00:34:38
SO THEY WERE TARGETED FOR THE
REMOVAL OF CHILDREN, SEXUALIZED
VIOLENCE BY POLICE OFFICERS, THE
00:34:43
VERY FIRST NORTHWEST POLICE, AND
ALSO FOR REMOVING OF CHILDREN,
MURDERED AND MISSING INDIGENOUS
00:34:50
WOMEN.
00:34:50
YOU'VE GOT THIS SCENARIO WHERE
INDIGENOUS WOMEN SUFFER TRIPLE
DISADVANTAGE.
00:34:58
DISABILITIES, BEING A WOMAN,
BEING INDIGENOUS.
00:35:00
ALL OF THOSE LAWS AND POLICIES
INCLUDING THE INDIAN ACT WHICH
STILL DISCRIMINATES AGAINST
00:35:05
THEM, HAVE NEVER BEEN ADDRESSED.
00:35:07
YOU SEE THIS BOOMING RATE OF
INDIGENOUS WOMEN AND LITTLE
GIRLS IN CORRECTIONS.
00:35:10
YOU SEE MURDERED AND MISSING
INDIGENOUS WOMEN.
00:35:14
HIGHER RATES OF SUICIDE.
00:35:15
HIGHER MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES.
00:35:17
AND THAT'S ALL BECAUSE THIS IS
ONGOING.
00:35:20
>> Steve: HOWARD, I'D LIKE YOU
TO EXPLAIN A TERM THAT MANY
PEOPLE WILL NOT KNOW, GLADUE,
00:35:29
G-L-A-D-U-E.
00:35:30
>> Howard Sapers: IT REFERS TO
A DECISION OF THE SUPREME COURT
OF CANADA AND IT'S NOW A COUPLE
00:35:33
DECADES SINCE THAT DECISION.
00:35:34
IN ESSENCE, THAT DECISION WAS
ABOUT A YOUNG WOMAN WHO WAS
CHARGED WITH A SERIOUS VIOLENT
00:35:39
CRIME, AND PREVIOUS TO HER
CONVICTION, THE CRIMINAL CODE OF
CANADA HAD BEEN AMENDED AND
00:35:44
JUDGES WERE INSTRUCTED TO TAKE
CONSIDERATION OF A NUMBER OF
FACTORS, INCLUDING FACTORS THAT
00:35:50
MIGHT BE PARTICULAR TO, IN THIS
CASE, AN ABORIGINAL YOUNG WOMAN.
00:35:58
HER SENTENCE WAS APPEALED AND IT
EVENTUALLY GOT TO THE SUPREME
COURT, AND THE SUPREME COURT
00:36:04
ISSUED SOME SIGNIFICANT GUIDANCE
ABOUT HOW YOU WOULD MAKE THAT
CRIMINAL CODE AMENDMENT
00:36:08
OPERATIONAL, THE KINDS OF THINGS
YOU SHOULD CONSIDER.
00:36:13
SO, IT WAS TO TAKE A NUMBER OF
CHARACTERISTICS INTO ACCOUNT:
THE LIFE HISTORY OF SOMEBODY
00:36:20
INTO ACCOUNT.
00:36:21
IT WASN'T A RACE-BASED DISCOUNT
ON A CONVICTION, WHICH WAS AN
OFFENSIVE WAY THAT SOME PEOPLE
00:36:27
TALKED ABOUT GLADUE.
00:36:28
IT WAS INSTRUCTION TO THE COURT
ON HOW TO APPLY THE LAW.
00:36:32
AND SO WE NOW SEE THAT IF YOU'RE
THE SURVIVOR OF RESIDENTIAL
SCHOOL, IF YOU OR YOUR FAMILY
00:36:38
WERE INVOLVED IN THE '60s
SCOOP, IF YOUR ECONOMIC
PROSPECTS HAVE BEEN DIMINISHED
00:36:46
BECAUSE OF POLICIES THAT
AFFECTED YOUR ABILITY TO BUY
PROPERTY OR GAIN EMPLOYMENT,
00:36:51
ETC., ALL OF THESE DISADVANTAGES
SHOULD BE CONSIDERED --
>> Steve: THEY'RE ALL
00:36:58
MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES.
00:36:59
>> WELL, TO MAKE YOUR SENTENCE
REASONABLE, PROPORTIONATE, FAIR
AND JUST.
00:37:02
>> Steve: IS THAT HAPPENING?
00:37:03
>> NO.
00:37:04
>> Steve: WHY IS IT NOT
HAPPENING?
00:37:05
>> THERE'S BEEN LOTS OF PROBLEMS
WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION OF
GLADUE.
00:37:09
SO ONE IS, AS I SAY, THERE WAS A
REACTION.
00:37:11
THEY SAID, WAIT A MINUTE, WE
CAN'T GIVE PEOPLE A DISCOUNT ON
THEIR CRIME JUST BECAUSE THEY
00:37:15
HAPPEN TO BE INDIGENOUS.
00:37:16
THE OTHER THING IS THAT THERE
WAS LOTS OF TRAINING AND
ATTENTION PAID TO PEOPLE TO
00:37:21
GATHER THE GLADUE KIND OF
INFORMATION, TO GET THE PERSONAL
HISTORY DETAIL.
00:37:26
THERE WASN'T LOTS OF TRAINING
AND SUPPORT FOR HOW TO APPLY
THAT INFORMATION.
00:37:30
SO ONE THING THAT'S HAPPENED,
FOR EXAMPLE, IF I'M BEING
ASSESSED FOR THOSE GLADUE
00:37:36
FACTORS AND IT TURNS OUT IN MY
BACKGROUND IS FAMILY
DYSFUNCTION, SOME FAMILY
00:37:40
VIOLENCE, I'VE SUFFERED SOME
TRAUMA, I MAY HAVE SOME
HISTORIES OF ADDICTION OR SOME
00:37:44
OTHER ISSUES, THOSE VERY SAME
THINGS WHICH COULD BE TIED TO
COLONIAL HISTORY, THOSE VERY
00:37:51
SAME THINGS, ONCE YOU GET INTO
CORRECTIONS, DON'T BECOME
MITIGATING, THEY BECOME
00:37:56
AGGRAVATING.
00:37:57
THOSE SAME THINGS WHICH ARE
SUPPOSED TO BE PROTECTIVE IN
TERMS OF A GLADUE ANALYSIS IN
00:38:02
FACT ELEVATE MY RISK AS FAR AS
CORRECTIONS IS CONCERNED, THEY
BECOME RISK FACTORS, WHICH MEANS
00:38:06
I'M GOING TO BE HELD AT HIGHER
SECURITY, IT MEANS I'M GOING TO
SPEND MORE TIME IN CUSTODY
00:38:10
BEFORE RELEASE.
00:38:11
IT DIMINISHES MY CHANCES,
FRANKLY, OF HAVING ANY
REHABILITATIVE EFFECT OF MY
00:38:16
SENTENCE, AND IT DIMINISHES MY
CHANCES OF SUCCESS ONCE I AM
RELEASED INTO THE COMMUNITY.
00:38:21
>> Steve: HOW DISTRESSED ARE
YOU THAT THE GLADUE PRINCIPLES
ARE NOT BEING PUT IN PLACE?
00:38:29
>> Pamela Palmater: IT'S SO
FAR BEYOND THE LAW.
00:38:31
IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
00:38:32
IT VIOLATES THE CHARTER.
00:38:34
YOU HAVE A JUDGMENT FROM THE
SUPREME COURT WHICH WAS
CONFIRMED SAYING, LISTEN, YOU'VE
00:38:38
GOT TO FIND ALTERNATIVES TO
PRISON FOR PEOPLE WITH THESE
FACTORS, AND INSTEAD, DESPITE
00:38:44
BEING A CURE FOR DISCRIMINATION,
THEY ACTUALLY USE IT TO FURTHER
DISCRIMINATE AGAINST INDIGENOUS
00:38:49
PEOPLE, AND IT'S GETTING WORSE.
00:38:51
AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
00:38:52
SO SINCE GLADUE, PRISON RATES
HAVE INCREASED, NOT DECREASED.
00:38:57
BUT HERE'S THE ISSUE: WHO IS
ACCOUNTABLE TO THAT?
00:39:00
THE CHIEF OF POLICE ISN'T
ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE
OVER-POLICING AND RACISM AGAINST
00:39:05
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.
00:39:06
THE CHIEF JUSTICES AREN'T
ACCOUNTABLE.
00:39:09
WHAT'S THEIR PUNISHMENT IF THEY
OVERINCARCERATE PEOPLE?
00:39:12
AND THE POLITICIANS, IT'S NOT
EVEN ON THEIR PRIORITY LIST.
00:39:16
SO THIS CRISIS IS NOT BEING
GIVEN ANY KIND OF PRIORITY AND
NO ONE IS BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE
00:39:21
FOR THE LIVES THAT ARE LITERALLY
BEING DESTROYED.
00:39:23
>> Steve: IT'S OFTEN THE CASE
THAT IF TEN PEOPLE ARE IN
CHARGE, NOBODY'S IN CHARGE,
00:39:28
RIGHT?
00:39:28
SO IF A WHOLE BUNCH OF DIFFERENT
PEOPLE -- JUDGES, POLITICIANS,
POLICE OFFICERS, CONTINUE THE
00:39:35
LIST -- IF ALL OF THESE PEOPLE
HAVE A HAND IN ENSURING THAT
GLADUE HAPPENS, WHO'S ACTUALLY
00:39:41
RESPONSIBLE AT THE END OF THE
DAY FOR MAKING SURE THAT IT
DOES?
00:39:45
>> Howard Sapers: WHEN THE NEW
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS ELECTED,
THE PRIME MINISTER ISSUED SOME
00:39:49
MANDATE LETTERS.
00:39:50
AND THE MANDATE LETTER TO THE
MINISTER OF JUSTICE WAS REALLY
CLEAR: ADDRESS OVERINCARCERATION
00:39:56
OF INDIGENOUS MEN AND WOMEN.
00:39:58
WE ALSO AT THE SAME TIME WERE
DEALING WITH THE WAY FORWARD
RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE TRUTH
00:40:03
AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION.
00:40:05
AND SO COMMITMENTS HAD BEEN MADE
ABOUT NATION-TO-NATION
RECONCILIATION.
00:40:09
SO IT IS ACTUALLY ON THE
TABLE --
>> Steve: FOR THE MINISTER OF
00:40:14
JUSTICE.
00:40:14
>> AND IT IS A CURRENT POLITICAL
DISCUSSION.
00:40:20
BUT, AGAIN, THERE'S SOME
CHALLENGES.
00:40:23
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S
RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING THE
CRIMINAL LAW.
00:40:26
PROVINCIAL AND TERRITORIAL
GOVERNMENTS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR
IMPLEMENTING --
00:40:29
>> Steve: THERE YOU GO.
00:40:30
SPLIT JURISDICTION.
00:40:31
>> RIGHT.
00:40:32
SO YOU HAVE FEDERAL AND
PROVINCIAL JURISDICTIONS.
00:40:34
SO YOU'VE GOT ALL THE PROVINCES
AND TERRITORIES DEALING WITH
THIS IN A VERY DIFFERENT WAY.
00:40:38
>> Steve: PAMELA, I DO NEED TO
ASK YOU, THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE
IN CANADA TODAY IS AN INDIGENOUS
00:40:43
WOMAN.
00:40:44
AND I NEED TO ASK YOU WHETHER
YOU THINK SHE IS DOING WHAT SHE
NEEDS TO DO, BEING RESPONSIBLE
00:40:49
FOR THE THINGS SHE IS
RESPONSIBLE FOR, TO IMPROVE THE
SITUATION?
00:40:54
>> Pamela Palmater: SHE
HASN'T.
00:40:55
ON ANY JUSTICE FRONT, BUT
SPECIFICALLY WITH REGARD TO THE
OVERINCARCERATION OF PEOPLE.
00:40:58
THERE'S BEEN TALK ABOUT IT.
00:41:00
THERE'S BEEN SOME SYMPATHY FROM
HER ABOUT THE SITUATION.
00:41:03
BUT IN TERMS OF CONCRETE ACTION
TO REDUCE THOSE NUMBERS OR
PREVENT INCARCERATION TO BEGIN
00:41:10
WITH, NOTHING'S HAPPENING.
00:41:11
AND SADLY WHEN WE ADVOCATED AT
THE UNITED NATIONS OR ANY
INTERNATIONAL FORUM ON THESE
00:41:18
THINGS, HER REPRESENTATIVES SAY,
IT'S COMPLICATED, THERE'S
FEDERAL, PROVINCIAL, TERRITORIAL
00:41:23
GOVERNMENT, IT'S REALLY TOO
HARD.
00:41:24
AND THAT IN ITSELF LOOKS AT THE
PROBLEM.
00:41:27
FIRST NATIONS SHOULD BE IN
CHARGE OF THEIR OWN POLICING,
OWN JUSTICE, AND OWN CORRECTIONS
00:41:31
ISSUES, NOT THE FEDERAL AND
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENTS.
00:41:34
WHY WOULD WE CONTINUE TO ASK THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST RACIST
AGAINST US TO FIND THE
00:41:39
SOLUTIONS, WHEN THE SOLUTIONS
THEMSELVES ARE USED AGAINST US
AND MAKE THE SITUATION WORSE?
00:41:42
>> Steve: HAVE YOU MET WITH
THE JUSTICE MINISTER?
00:41:47
>> JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD?
00:41:50
NOT SINCE SHE'S BECOME MINISTER.
00:41:52
SHE MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT.
00:41:54
IT'S EASY TO PICK ON SOMEONE
LIKE STEPHEN HARPER WHO SAYS THE
WORST THINGS AND HIS GOVERNMENT
00:41:59
WAS VERY OUTRAGEOUS IN TERMS OF
FIRST NATIONS.
00:42:02
THE PUBLIC GOES, WOW, THAT'S
CRAZY.
00:42:05
NOW THIS GOVERNMENT CAN TROT OUT
AN INDIGENOUS WOMAN AND SAY, OH,
LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE DOING.
00:42:09
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
OVERINCARCERATION, AND NOT DO
ANYTHING.
00:42:13
SO WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO THE
PUBLIC?
00:42:15
THE PUBLIC'S LIKE, WELL, IF
SHE'S NOT CONCERNED, MAYBE WE
SHOULDN'T BE CONCERNED.
00:42:19
SO IT MAKES OUR ADVOCACY ROLE
MUCH HARDER AND IT'S ALREADY
HARD TO GET ATTENTION FOR PEOPLE
00:42:24
IN PRISON.
00:42:25
>> Steve: I KNOW YOU'RE NOT A
POLITICIAN AND I KNOW YOU LOVE
TO STAY AWAY FROM PARTISAN
00:42:30
POLITICS, BUT ...
00:42:31
I MEAN, PAMELA HAS RAISED A
CURIOUS ISSUE HERE.
00:42:34
IS THERE A WAY OUT OF THIS
SOMEHOW?
00:42:37
>> Howard Sapers: I THINK
THERE ARE SEVERAL WAYS OUT OF
THIS.
00:42:39
I WAS GOING TO SAY SEVERAL WAYS
FORWARD, BECAUSE OF COURSE I'M
THINKING ABOUT THE TRUTH AND
00:42:44
RECONCILIATION COMMISSION.
00:42:45
JUSTICE MURRAY SINCLAIR DID A
WONDERFUL JOB OF GIVING US A
FRAMEWORK THAT WE CAN RELY ON,
00:42:52
WE CAN LOOK AT.
00:42:54
I HAVE SEEN SOME MOVEMENT
FORWARD.
00:42:56
I HAVE SEEN INITIATIVES IN THE
WORK I'M DOING IN ONTARIO, FOR
EXAMPLE.
00:43:02
IN THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT'S
COMMITMENT IN TERMS OF
RESPONDING TO THE TRUTH AND
00:43:06
RECONCILIATION COMMISSION.
00:43:07
I HAVE SEEN SOME MOVEMENT
FORWARD EVEN IN THE CORRECTIONAL
SERVICE OF CANADA.
00:43:12
THERE ARE LITTLE GLIMMERS OF
HOPE.
00:43:13
SOME SECTIONS THAT WERE SPECIFIC
TO INDIGENOUS MEN AND WOMEN IN
THE FEDERAL LAW THAT GOVERNS
00:43:19
CORRECTIONS, WE'RE SEEING A
SLIGHT INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF
PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING RELEASED
00:43:24
UNDER WHAT'S CALLED SECTION 84,
WHICH IS ABOUT BEING RELEASED TO
AN INDIGENOUS COMMUNITY.
00:43:29
WE'RE SEEING RENEWED DISCUSSIONS
ABOUT CREATING MORE HEALING
LODGE SPACE.
00:43:33
>> Steve: THAT'S ENCOURAGING.
00:43:35
A LITTLE BIT.
00:43:35
>> YEAH, THERE'S THESE GLIMMERS
THAT MAKE ME HOPEFUL.
00:43:39
>> Steve: LET ME TRY ONE THING
WITH YOU, PAMELA.
00:43:41
YOU JUST SAID A SECOND AGO IT
MAKES NO SENSE TO HAVE, IN YOUR
VIEW, THE MOST RACIST
00:43:46
INSTITUTIONS IN OUR SOCIETY IN
CHARGE OF ALL OF THIS.
00:43:49
>> Pamela Palmater: MM-HMM.
00:43:50
>> Steve: I UNDERSTAND HOW, IF
AN INDIGENOUS PERSON IS ALLEGED
TO HAVE COMMITTED A CRIME TEN
00:43:54
HOURS FROM THIS STUDIO IN
UNCEDED TERRITORY IN A MUCH MORE
REMOTELY -- REMOTE PART OF
00:44:01
ONTARIO, I GET THAT.
00:44:05
THERE'S NO ANALOGOUS INDIGENOUS
POLICE FORCE IN DOWNTOWN OTTAWA
OR DOWNTOWN TORONTO.
00:44:10
SO IF AN INDIGENOUS PERSON
COMMITS A CRIME IN EITHER OF
THOSE TWO PLACES, TO WHOM ARE
00:44:15
THEY SUPPOSED TO BE TURNED OVER,
IF NOT THE CURRENT RACIST SYSTEM
YOU ABHOR?
00:44:20
>> EXACTLY.
00:44:21
THE PROBLEM IS THOSE SYSTEMS
AREN'T IN PLACE, THEY HAVEN'T
BEEN ALLOWED TO BE IN PLACE.
00:44:26
YOU DO SEE TRIBAL POLICE FORCES
ON SOME FIRST NATIONS, YOU SEE
TRIBAL COURTS IN THE UNITED
00:44:32
STATES AND CANADA THAT OPERATE
WITH PHENOMENAL SUCCESS.
00:44:34
WHY THAT HASN'T BEEN REPLICATED
ACROSS THE COUNTRY IS A QUESTION
FOR BOTH THE JUSTICE MINISTER
00:44:39
AND THE PRIME MINISTER --
>> Steve: COULD THAT BE DONE
IN BIG CITIES?
00:44:43
>> IT COULD BE DONE.
00:44:44
OF COURSE IT COULD BE DONE.
00:44:45
YOU COULDN'T GET MUCH WORSE THAN
THE CURRENT TORONTO POLICE
FORCE.
00:44:48
YOU'VE GOT LOTS OF ISSUES AROUND
DEATHS IN POLICE CUSTODY FOR
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, THINGS LIKE
00:44:53
STARLIGHT TOURS, SEXUALIZED
VIOLENCE THAT'S HAPPENING ALL
ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND THAT'S
00:44:57
NOT BEING ADDRESSED, BOTH IN
TERMS OF POLICING AND IN
CORRECTIONING, ONCE YOU'RE IN
00:45:01
THE INSTITUTION.
00:45:02
>> Steve: LET ME DO ONE MORE
THING WITH HOWARD THEN ON THIS.
00:45:06
CAN YOU IMAGINE RECOMMENDING TO
THE GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO THAT
IT CREATE A PARALLEL POLICE
00:45:11
SERVICE, RUN, STAFFED, ORGANIZED
BY INDIGENOUS PEOPLE,
SPECIFICALLY TO TREAT ALLEGED
00:45:19
CRIMES PERPETRATED BY INDIGENOUS
PEOPLE?
00:45:23
>> Howard Sapers: STEVE, I
THINK THE ANSWER IS, YES,
AMONGST MANY OTHER THINGS.
00:45:32
WHETHER WE WOULD NEED A METRO
TORONTO INDIGENOUS POLICE
DEPARTMENT OR NOT, I DON'T KNOW.
00:45:37
BECAUSE THERE'S ALSO BEEN SOME
TREMENDOUS FAILURES IN TERMS OF
CREATING PARALLEL SYSTEMS.
00:45:46
BUT WE CAN INNOVATE.
00:45:47
WE CAN INNOVATE AROUND THINGS
LIKE BETTER APPLICATION OF
GLADUE WITHIN THE EXISTING
00:45:53
STRUCTURE.
00:45:54
WE CAN INNOVATE AROUND CREATING
INDIGENOUS PROGRAM AND POLICY
DIVISIONS, DEPARTMENTS, CULTURAL
00:45:59
AWARENESS TRAINING.
00:46:01
WE CAN HAVE A BETTER LEGAL AND
ACCOUNTABILITY FRAMEWORK TO MAKE
SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY
00:46:04
DOING WHAT THEY'VE SAID IN THEIR
MISSION AND MANDATE STATEMENTS.
00:46:09
SO THERE'S LOTS THAT WE CAN
DO --
>> Steve: SHORT OF WHAT I
00:46:14
JUST --
>> SHORT OF THAT.
00:46:15
BUT I WOULD SAY, LET'S LOOK
AT -- LET'S LOOK AT ALL THE
OPTIONS, BECAUSE THE STATUS QUO
00:46:21
IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.
00:46:22
SO LET'S BE INNOVATIVE, LET'S BE
CREATIVE, AND LET'S NOT BE
DEFENSIVE.
00:46:26
>> Steve: HERE IS, YOU ALL
REMEMBER MICHAEL BRIAN, HE USED
TO BE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF
00:46:28
ONTARIO.
00:46:30
HE RECENTLY WAS DECLARED THE
00:46:33
HEAD OF THE CANADIAN CIVIL
LIBERTIES ASSOCIATION, AND
HERE'S WHAT HE HAD TO WRITE IN
00:46:36
THE TORONTO STAR AS TO WHAT
WE'RE DISCUSSING TONIGHT.
00:47:33
>> Steve: THAT'S AN
ALTERNATIVE IDEA.
00:47:36
COULD THAT WORK, PAM?
00:47:40
>> Pamela Palmater: I MEAN, WE
DON'T KNOW -- WE HAVEN'T TRIED
IT.
00:47:43
BUT I'VE ALWAYS BEEN A
PROPONENT, NOT OF MANDATORY
MINIMUM SENTENCES WHICH MAKES
00:47:47
THE SITUATION WORSE, BUT
MANDATORY ALTERNATIVES.
00:47:52
WHY COULDN'T THERE BE FOR A
CATEGORY OF OFFENCES AT A
MINIMUM MANDATORY ALTERNATIVES
00:47:57
TO MAKE IT COMPLETELY ILLEGAL
FOR YOU TO IMPRISON SOMEONE FOR
STEALING FOOD FROM A GROCERY
00:48:04
STORE OR DRIVING A STOLEN CAR TO
TAKE A CHILD TO A MEDICAL
TREATMENT.
00:48:09
THERE ARE SO MANY CONDITIONS ON
WHICH THERE SHOULD BE LEGALLY
MANDATORY ALTERNATIVES AND I
00:48:13
THINK SOME VARIATION OF THAT IS
A POSSIBILITY.
00:48:15
>> Steve: HOWARD?
00:48:16
>> Howard Sapers: WELL,
SURE -- THE IRONIC THING IS THAT
AS YOU WERE READING THAT, I'M
00:48:21
THINKING THAT THE CRIMINAL CODE
ALREADY SAYS THAT INCARCERATION
IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE LAST
00:48:25
RESORT.
00:48:25
FOR YOU, FOR ME, FOR AN
INDIGENOUS MAN OR WOMAN.
00:48:29
FOR ANYBODY.
00:48:30
INCARCERATION IS SUPPOSED TO BE
THE LAST RESORT.
00:48:32
AND IN FACT THE SENTENCING
PROVISIONS THAT WERE CHALLENGED
IN GLADUE ARE KIND OF LIKE THE
00:48:38
PROVISIONS THAT MICHAEL BRYANT
IS TALKING ABOUT.
00:48:40
SO WE ALREADY HAVE A LEGAL
FRAMEWORK THAT WOULD ALLOW US TO
DO EXACTLY THAT.
00:48:45
WHETHER IT WOULD BE ENHANCED
WITH A CRIMINAL CODE AMENDMENT
OR NOT, I CAN'T SAY.
00:48:48
I CAN TELL YOU THAT IT DIDN'T
WORK SIMPLY BY AMENDING THE
CODE, DIDN'T WORK.
00:48:53
SIMPLY BY ISSUING A SUPREME
COURT JUDGMENT DIDN'T WORK.
00:48:57
SO IT'S SOMETHING DEEPER IN THE
SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE TO DO.
00:49:01
>> Steve: CHANGING HEARTS AND
MINDS AND CULTURE AND ALL OF
THAT.
00:49:06
>> CHANGING HEARTS AND MINDS AND
CULTURE AND ALL OF THAT.
00:49:08
THAT SHOULD PROBABLY BE THE
TITLE OF THIS SHOW.
00:49:14
I'VE JUST GIVEN A COUPLE OF
REPORTS, AS YOU MENTIONED, WITH
LOTS OF DISCUSSION ABOUT
00:49:18
CHANGING POLICY AND CREATING NEW
LAW.
00:49:20
THAT'S IMPORTANT.
00:49:21
THAT'S FOUNDATIONAL STUFF.
00:49:22
BUT UNLESS YOU CHANGE ATTITUDES,
UNLESS YOU GIVE THE SYSTEM BACK
THE DISCRETION IT'S SUPPOSED TO
00:49:27
HAVE, AS PAM WAS TALKING ABOUT,
ELIMINATING MANDATORY MINIMUMS,
GIVING COURTS THE KIND OF
00:49:32
DISCRETION THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO
HAVE SO JUSTICE CAN TRULY BE
INDIVIDUALIZED, PROPORTIONATE
00:49:38
AND RATIONAL, ALL THE CRIMINAL
CODE AMENDMENTS IN THE WORLD
AREN'T GOING TO CHANGE THINGS.
00:49:41
>> Steve: IN OUR REMAINING
MOMENTS HERE, LET'S DO WHAT YOU
HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO DO YET.
00:49:46
I'M GOING TO PUT YOU IN THE
MINISTER OF JUSTICE'S OFFICE FOR
THAT ONE-ON-ONE MEETING AND
00:49:50
YOU'RE GOING TO SAY TO HER:
MINISTER, HERE IS THE FIRST
THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO MAKE AN
00:49:55
IMPROVEMENT ON THIS
DISPROPORTIONATE SITUATION WHERE
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE ARE
00:49:59
DRAMATICALLY OVERREPRESENTED IN
OUR PRISON.
00:50:01
WHAT ARE YOU TELLING HERE?
00:50:02
>> Pamela Palmater: YOU HAVE
TO DRAMATICALLY FUND THE
ALTERNATIVES.
00:50:05
THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY JUDGES
SAY I HAVE TO PUT THIS PERSON IN
PRISON IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO
00:50:10
MONEY AT THE ABORIGINAL
COMMUNITY OR ANYWHERE ELSE TO
HAVE THE ALTERNATIVES, THERE'S
00:50:14
NO SUPPORT, NO MECHANISMS.
00:50:16
THEY NEED TO CLEAN HOUSE IN
TERMS OF POLICING AND
CORRECTIONS, AND I MEAN CLEAN
00:50:20
HOUSE.
00:50:20
ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF
SEXUAL VIOLENCE, RACISM AND ALL
OF THAT STUFF, THAT TOTALLY
00:50:26
NEEDS TO BE DONE.
00:50:27
AND THEY NEED TO PUT THESE
ISSUES IN THE HANDS OF FIRST
NATIONS WHERE THEY CAN AND WHERE
00:50:31
THERE ARE FIRST NATIONS THAT ARE
WILLING.
00:50:33
IF THEY DID THOSE THREE THINGS,
THERE WOULD BE A MARKABLE
DIFFERENCE IN ADDITION TO DOING
00:50:39
A GENDER BASED ANALYSIS OF THE
CURRENT SYSTEM THAT'S BROKEN.
00:50:42
>> Steve: HOWARD, I'M GOING TO
MAKE SORT OF THE SAME DEAL WITH
YOU.
00:50:45
WHEN YOU WRITE YOUR TWO REPORTS,
YOU OBVIOUSLY GIVE THEM TO THE
MINISTER RESPONSIBLE.
00:50:49
DID YOU GO IN AND GIVE A
BRIEFING TO CABINET OR ANYTHING
LIKE THAT?
00:50:53
>> Howard Sapers: I TALK TO
WHOEVER WHO WILL LISTEN.
00:50:55
THE NICE THING ABOUT THE JOB I'M
DOING RIGHT NOW IS I'VE REALLY
BEEN INVITED INTO THOSE
00:51:00
DISCUSSIONS.
00:51:01
I'M ACTUALLY VERY HOPEFUL.
00:51:03
AND I WOULD SUPPORT WHAT PAM
JUST SAID ABOUT THOSE THREE
THINGS, BUT I WOULD ACTUALLY
00:51:08
GATHER MY CABINET COLLEAGUES
TOGETHER, AND I WOULD GET THE
MINISTERS RESPONSIBLE FOR
00:51:14
HOUSING AND HEALTH AND EDUCATION
AND SOCIAL SERVICES AND
EMPLOYMENT DEVELOPMENT AND
00:51:18
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, I'D SAY,
HEY, GUYS, I WOULD REALLY LIKE
TO SEE MYSELF OUT OF A JOB AS
00:51:23
THE MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR
CORRECTIONS.
00:51:25
SO WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO TO
STEM THE FLOW?
00:51:30
ONCE SOMEBODY'S DEEPLY ENMESHED
IN A SYSTEM, THAT THEY HAVE A
CRIMINAL CONVICTION AND THEY'RE
00:51:35
IN A JAIL OR PRISON IN THIS
COUNTRY, IT'S TOO LATE.
00:51:38
THE SINGLE BIGGEST PREDICTOR
THAT YOU'LL BE IN JAIL IS THAT
YOU HAD A PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE IN
00:51:43
JAIL.
00:51:43
SO LET'S STEM THE FLOW.
00:51:44
AND REALLY, WHAT WE KNOW WORKS
IS WE KNOW THAT THE KIND OF
SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
00:51:52
INITIATIVES --
>> Steve: JUST EXPLAIN WHAT
THAT MEANS.
00:51:54
IF YOU'RE IN THIS FICTITIOUS
MEETING, YOU'RE GOING TO THE
MINISTER OF HEALTH AND SAYING
00:51:59
THIS IS HOW YOU, MINISTER OF
HEALTH, CAN PREVENT A
DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBERS OF
00:52:03
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE ENDING UP IN
OUR JAILS?
00:52:06
>> TREAT IT LIKE A
00:52:10
EARLY INTERVENTION FOR YOUNG
CHILDREN, PARTICULARLY THOSE
WHERE THEIR FAMILIES ARE AT RISK
00:52:14
BECAUSE OF THEIR ECONOMIC STATUS
OR BECAUSE OF INTERGENERATIONAL
TRAUMA WITHIN THAT FAMILY.
00:52:22
WE'VE ALREADY IDENTIFIED THOSE
FAMILIES.
00:52:23
BUT WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW IS,
AGAIN, WE'RE SPLITTING THEM UP.
00:52:26
THE CHILDREN GO INTO CHILDREN'S
AID AND THE PARENTS END UP GOING
TO JAIL.
00:52:29
>> Steve: PAMELA, LET ME GIVE
YOU THE LAST WORD ON THIS LAST
QUESTION.
00:52:33
HOW UNITED IN YOUR VIEW IS THE
INDIGENOUS WORLD IN THIS COUNTRY
ON THE ISSUES WE'VE BEEN TALKING
00:52:38
ABOUT HERE?
00:52:40
>> Pamela Palmater:
OVERINCARCERATION?
00:52:41
LIKE I SAID, IN EVERY VENUE,
OVERINCARCERATION GETS ALMOST
THE LOWEST PRIORITY BECAUSE
00:52:46
WE'RE TRYING TO DEAL WITH OTHER
CRISIS ISSUES LIKE KIDS IN CARE
AND HOUSING AND WATER AND ALL OF
00:52:50
THESE THINGS, LACK OF EDUCATION,
LACK OF ACCESS TO LAND AND
TREATY RIGHTS WHICH ARE ALL ROOT
00:52:56
CAUSES FOR WHAT HAPPENS IN THE
VERY END, OVERINCARCERATION.
00:52:59
BUT I THINK AMONGST THE PEOPLE
WHO WORK IN THIS AREA, THERE'S A
LARGE DEGREE OF CONSENSUS
00:53:04
AROUND, THIS ISN'T WORKING.
00:53:05
WE NEED TO TAKE CONTROL, OR AT
LEAST SOME ASPECT OF CONTROL,
AND WE NEED TO ADDRESS, LIKE
00:53:10
WHAT HOWARD WAS SAYING, ROOT
CAUSES.
00:53:12
TWO THIRDS OF PEOPLE IN
PRISON -- TWO THIRDS -- HAD SOME
FORM OF CONTACT WITH FOSTER
00:53:16
CARE, CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES.
00:53:17
WE ARE LITERALLY CREATING A
PIPELINE TO PRISON.
00:53:19
PEOPLE LIKE CINDY BLACKSTOCK
HAVE SUED THE GOVERNMENT,
THE GOVERNMENT REFUSES TO
00:53:24
ADDRESS THAT ISSUE, SO IT'S
GUARANTEEING
NO MATTER WHAT JUSTICE DOES WITH
00:53:28
ITS INTERNAL INITIATIVES THAT
THAT PIPELINE WILL CONTINUE.
00:53:31
WE NEED TO ADDRESS ALL OF THOSE
FEEDER GROUPS THAT GO TO PRISON.
00:53:36
>> Steve: I WANT TO THANK BOTH
OF YOU FOR COMING ONTO TVO
TONIGHT AND SHINING A LIGHT ON
00:53:39
THIS MOST URGENT PROBLEM.
00:53:49
HOWARD SAPERS, THE INDEPENDENT
ADVISER ON CORRECTIONS REFORM
TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO
00:53:51
PAMELA PALMATER, FROM RYERSON
UNIVERSITY HERE IN TORONTO.
00:53:52
THANKS SO MUCH.
00:53:52
BOTH: THANK YOU.