The biggest mystery in science | Adam Frank and Lex Fridman
Résumé
TLDRThe discussion explores the idea of redefining the most significant scientific question from understanding the universe's origins to questioning what life is and what differentiates living beings from inanimate objects. The primary focus is on agency and what it means to be an autonomous agent. In rejecting reductionism, the conversation highlights the importance of experience in understanding life and the universe. Science, they argue, has a 'blind spot'—it often ignores the human experience and agency, key to unlocking deeper scientific mysteries such as consciousness, time, and quantum mechanics. The speakers propose that experience should be integrated into scientific inquiry, contrasting the rigid materialistic frameworks that tend to marginalize subjective experience. They critique scientific triumphalism and point out how rejecting the intrinsic value of experience leads to societal and philosophical dead ends. By reconsidering the agency, the discussion opens the possibility for a new conception of nature that embraces life's complexity and the interplay between organisms and their environment.
A retenir
- 🧬 Questioning the essence of life beyond scientific reductionism.
- 💡 Agency and autonomy as central challenges to traditional science.
- 🔍 The 'blind spot' in science ignoring human experience.
- 🌌 Blending science with insights from spirituality and philosophy.
- 🔄 Emphasizing experience in resolving scientific paradoxes.
- ⚖️ Critique of scientific triumphalism and materialistic views.
- 🤝 Responses to the crisis of meaning created by reductionism.
- 🚀 Potential of new theories integrating agency and information.
- 🧠 Phenomenology and experience in philosophical discussions.
- 📉 Experiences dismissed as epiphenomena questioned.
Chronologie
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The discussion begins with pondering the greatest possible scientific question, touching on topics like the universe before the Big Bang and the existence of alien civilizations. The emphasis is placed on understanding life and what differentiates living entities from non-living entities fundamentally, introducing the idea of agency and autonomy.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
The conversation explores the philosophical underpinnings of science, particularly the central thesis of the book "The Blind Spot," which argues that science overlooks the fundamental role of human experience. This oversight is metaphorically compared to an optic nerve blind spot, proposing that recognizing this could solve paradoxes in understanding consciousness and experience.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Further analysis is given to how historical scientific views have sidelined human experience, resulting in philosophical assumptions like reductionism, objectivity, and physicalism. Such perspectives contribute to a "crisis of meaning" in society, where science is either seen as triumphantly absolute or entirely dismissible, influenced by postmodernism, anti-science sentiment, and pseudo-science.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
The notion of experience being central to understanding science is proposed as a solution to the crisis of meaning, challenging purely materialistic or idealistic views. There's a discussion on how scientific progress might integrate human experience into its framework rather than exclude it as superstition or pseudo-science.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Acknowledging a crisis in current scientific narratives, particularly in physics and cosmology, the discussion critiques foundational physics' disconnection from empirical evidence. There's a hope for a new scientific approach that respects the role of agency and experience, altering how fundamental questions in physics, such as the nature of time and the interaction of agents with the world, are approached.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Using quantum mechanics as an example, the conversation proposes new interpretations that put experience at the heart of scientific inquiry, challenging ideas like many-worlds theory. The importance of experiments like Cubism, which integrate agency and information at the core of quantum mechanics, is highlighted.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
The dialogue shifts towards considering a new direction where agent-centered theories could inform our understanding of complex scientific phenomena. The potential for scientific revelations through acknowledging agency, experience, and autonomy, rather than reducing them to mere mechanical processes, is discussed.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Exploration continues into broader philosophical perspectives that include phenomenology and insights from non-Western philosophies. The discussion highlights that developing scientific rigor from a first- or second-person perspective can illuminate unique, potentially groundbreaking approaches to scientific inquiry.
- 00:40:00 - 00:46:58
The conversation culminates in considerations of whether machines can embody agency and the role of imitation in consciousness development. The dialogue briefly touches on ideas like 4E cognition, which suggest that cognition and agency are extended beyond the brain, involving embodiment in an environment, advocating for a holistic view of nature.
Carte mentale
Vidéo Q&R
What is considered the biggest scientific question discussed in the video?
The biggest scientific question is about understanding what life is and the fundamental difference between living beings and non-living objects like rocks.
How does the concept of agency differ from reductionist views?
Agency is about being an autonomous agent, which challenges reductionist views that life is simply a result of assembling chemicals.
What is the 'blind spot' in science according to the video?
The 'blind spot' refers to the overlooked aspect of experience and presence in science, which is crucial but often ignored due to the focus on materialistic and reductionist views.
How does the video relate science to human experience and spirituality?
The video suggests that understanding life and agency brings science closer to addressing elements of human experience and spirituality, which science tends to neglect.
Why is experience central to addressing scientific paradoxes?
Experience is central because ignoring it results in paradoxes and problems in science, such as those related to consciousness and the nature of time.
What is scientific triumphalism?
Scientific triumphalism is the belief that only scientific truths matter, discarding other forms of knowledge as irrelevant or unreal.
How do people respond to the crisis of meaning created by reductionist science?
Responses include scientific triumphalism, rejecting science as merely a power game, and resorting to pseudoscience.
What role do agency and information play in new scientific theories?
Agency and information are central to new theories, such as cubism in quantum mechanics, which suggests that these elements should be integrated into the heart of scientific inquiry.
Why might scientific approaches ignoring experience be seen as problematic?
Ignoring experience can lead to a crisis of meaning and undermine the balance needed in scientific exploration that incorporates human experience and agency.
Is the experience an illusion, according to the video's discussion?
The video challenges the idea that experience is an illusion, arguing that experience is not reducible and should be considered a fundamental aspect of reality.
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- 00:00:02it's an interesting thought experiment
- 00:00:04what is the biggest scientific question
- 00:00:06we can possibly answer you know some
- 00:00:08people might say about like what
- 00:00:09happened before the Big Bang like some
- 00:00:11big physics questions about the
- 00:00:14Universe I can see the argument for you
- 00:00:17know how many alien civilizations or if
- 00:00:19there's other life out there you want to
- 00:00:22speak to that a little bit like why why
- 00:00:24is the why is it the biggest question in
- 00:00:26your why is it number one in your top
- 00:00:28five or I I I've involved in this right
- 00:00:30you know I started off as a theoretical
- 00:00:31physicist I went into um computational
- 00:00:33astrophysics and Magneto hydrodynamics
- 00:00:35of star formation but I always you know
- 00:00:36I was a philosophy minor I always had
- 00:00:38these sort of bigger questions sort of
- 00:00:39floating around the back of my mind and
- 00:00:41what I've come to now is the most
- 00:00:43important question in the for physics is
- 00:00:46what is life what the hell is the
- 00:00:47difference between a rock and a cell
- 00:00:49fundamentally and what I really mean by
- 00:00:51this this is where I'm going to go
- 00:00:52non-traditional um is that really the
- 00:00:55fundamental question that is the is
- 00:00:57agency what does it mean to be an
- 00:00:59autonomous agent how the hell does that
- 00:01:02happen you know it's so I'm not a
- 00:01:04reductionist I'm not somebody who's just
- 00:01:05like well you just put together enough
- 00:01:06chemicals and Bing Bang Boom and you
- 00:01:08know it suddenly appears there something
- 00:01:10really is going to demand a reconception
- 00:01:13of what nature itself is and so yeah
- 00:01:16black holes are super cool cosmology is
- 00:01:18super cool but really this question of
- 00:01:21of what is life especially from by
- 00:01:24viewing it from the inside uh because
- 00:01:26it's really about the verb to be right
- 00:01:28really what is the most what is the most
- 00:01:30impressing philosophical question Beyond
- 00:01:32science is the verb to be what is what
- 00:01:35is being right uh this is what Stephen
- 00:01:37Hawking said when he talked about what
- 00:01:39what puts the fire in the equations the
- 00:01:41fire right the fire is this this
- 00:01:43presence and this is where it touches
- 00:01:45things like you know whatever you want
- 00:01:46to say it the sacred spirituality
- 00:01:48whatever you want to talk about my first
- 00:01:49book was about science and and human
- 00:01:52spirituality um so it's like you know so
- 00:01:54this question of life what makes life as
- 00:01:57a physical system you know so different
- 00:02:00is is to me much because it's you know
- 00:02:02that's where being appears being doesn't
- 00:02:04appear out there right the only place
- 00:02:06that ever appears to any of us is us so
- 00:02:09you know I can do this kind of
- 00:02:11projection into this third person thing
- 00:02:12but nobody ever has that that God's eye
- 00:02:14view that's a story we tell this is
- 00:02:16where you know this between us is where
- 00:02:20the verb to be appears so this is
- 00:02:22something that you uh write about in the
- 00:02:24blind spot why science cannot ignore
- 00:02:27Human Experience sort of trying to pull
- 00:02:30the
- 00:02:31fire into the the process of uh uh
- 00:02:36science uh and it's a kind of critique
- 00:02:38of uh materialism can you explain the
- 00:02:40main thesis of this book yeah so the
- 00:02:42idea of the blind spot is that there is
- 00:02:44this
- 00:02:45thing uh that is Central to science so
- 00:02:49the blind we're using the blind spot as
- 00:02:50a metaphor right so the eye has an optic
- 00:02:52nerve and the optic nerve is what allows
- 00:02:54Vision to happen um so you can't have
- 00:02:57Vision without the optic nerve but
- 00:02:58actually you're blind to the op optic
- 00:03:00nerve there's a little hole in your
- 00:03:01vision where the optic nerve is and what
- 00:03:03we're saying is that science has
- 00:03:05something like this there is something
- 00:03:07that without which science would not be
- 00:03:10possible but that science the way it's
- 00:03:11been configured and actually when we
- 00:03:13mean the blind spot I'll get into
- 00:03:15exactly what I mean what it it is but
- 00:03:17it's not really science it is a it is a
- 00:03:20set of ideas that got glued on to
- 00:03:22science it's a metaphysics that got
- 00:03:24glued on science and so um what is that
- 00:03:26thing that is what is the blind spot
- 00:03:28it's experience it is presence and by
- 00:03:30experience people have to be very
- 00:03:32careful because I'm not talking about
- 00:03:33being an observer it's the you know
- 00:03:35there's lots of words for it there's
- 00:03:36direct experience there is um presence
- 00:03:40being um the life world within the
- 00:03:43philosophy called phenomenology there's
- 00:03:45the life world it's this sort of raw
- 00:03:47presence that you can't get away from
- 00:03:49until you die and then who the hell
- 00:03:50knows you know that like you know as
- 00:03:52long as you're around it's there and
- 00:03:54what we're saying is that that is the
- 00:03:56the way to say this that is the the
- 00:03:58precondition
- 00:04:00for the possibility of Science and the
- 00:04:03whole nature of science the way it has
- 00:04:05evolved is that it is purposely pushed
- 00:04:08that out it pushed that out so it could
- 00:04:10make progress um and that's fine for a
- 00:04:12certain class of problems uh but when we
- 00:04:15try to answer when we try and go deeper
- 00:04:18there's a whole other class of problems
- 00:04:19the nature of Consciousness the nature
- 00:04:21of time quantum mechanics that comes
- 00:04:24back to bite us and that if we don't
- 00:04:26learn how to take understand that that
- 00:04:29that is always the background that
- 00:04:31experience is always the background then
- 00:04:33we just end up with these paradoxes and
- 00:04:35pro these yoga that that require this
- 00:04:37intellectual yoga to get out of I think
- 00:04:38you give a bunch of examples of that
- 00:04:40like looking at temperature as a number
- 00:04:42there's a very sort of objective
- 00:04:44scientific way of looking at that and
- 00:04:45then there's the experience of the
- 00:04:46temperature and how you build the
- 00:04:48parable of temperature that we we call
- 00:04:50it so what what is the blind spot we use
- 00:04:52the term it's a constellation it's not
- 00:04:54just materialism it's a constellation of
- 00:04:56ideas that are all really sort of
- 00:04:57philosophical views they're not what
- 00:04:59sence says but because of the evolution
- 00:05:02of the history of Science and culture
- 00:05:04they got like pin the tail on the donkey
- 00:05:06they were sort of pinned on and to tell
- 00:05:08us that this is what science says so
- 00:05:10what is it one is reductionism that you
- 00:05:12are nothing but your nerve cells which
- 00:05:15are nothing but the chemistry which is
- 00:05:17nothing but you know all the way down to
- 00:05:19quirks that's it so that's reductionism
- 00:05:21the objective frame that science gives
- 00:05:23us this God's eye view this third person
- 00:05:25view of the world to view the world from
- 00:05:28the outside that that's what science you
- 00:05:29know bequeaths to us that view
- 00:05:31physicalism that everything in the world
- 00:05:33is basically made of stuff there's
- 00:05:36nothing else to talk about right that
- 00:05:38that's all there is and everything can
- 00:05:39be reduced to that and then also the
- 00:05:41reification of mathematics that
- 00:05:42mathematics is somehow more real than
- 00:05:45this and there's a bunch of other things
- 00:05:47but all these together what they all do
- 00:05:49is they end up pushing experience out
- 00:05:52and saying experience is an epiphenomena
- 00:05:54Consciousness I I don't I tend not to
- 00:05:55use the word Consciousness because it's
- 00:05:57I think it get you know it lead leads us
- 00:05:59in the wrong direction we should focus
- 00:06:01on experience because it's a verb kind
- 00:06:03of in a way it's verb it's verb so yeah
- 00:06:06and that this by being blind to that we
- 00:06:10end up with these paradoxes and problems
- 00:06:12that really not only block science but
- 00:06:15also have been detrimental to society as
- 00:06:16a whole especially where we're at right
- 00:06:18now so you you actually say that that
- 00:06:20from a perspective of detrimental
- 00:06:22society that there's a crisis of meaning
- 00:06:24and then would respond to that in a way
- 00:06:27that's counterproductive to these bigger
- 00:06:29questions scientific questions so the
- 00:06:31three ways the three responses you
- 00:06:33mentioned scientific uh
- 00:06:36triumphalism and then on the other side
- 00:06:38is rejecting science completely both on
- 00:06:40the left and the right I think the
- 00:06:42postmodernists on the left and the
- 00:06:44anti-establishment people on the right
- 00:06:46and then just pseudo science that kind
- 00:06:48of does this in between thing um can you
- 00:06:51just speak to those responses and to the
- 00:06:52crisis of meaning right right so the
- 00:06:54crisis of meaning is that you know on
- 00:06:57the one hand science wants to tell us
- 00:06:59that we're insignificant we're not
- 00:07:01important we're just you know biological
- 00:07:03machines um and uh you know so we're
- 00:07:05basically an insignificant part of the
- 00:07:07Universe on the other hand we also find
- 00:07:10ourselves being completely significant
- 00:07:12in cosmology we have to figure out how
- 00:07:14to look from the inside at cosmology
- 00:07:17we're always The Observers we're at the
- 00:07:18center of this you know uh collapsing
- 00:07:21wavefront of light um you know quantum
- 00:07:23mechanics it really comes in it comes in
- 00:07:25you know the measurement problem just
- 00:07:27puts us front and center we've spent 100
- 00:07:29some people spent 100 years trying to
- 00:07:30ignore the measurement part of the
- 00:07:31measurement problem so on the one hand
- 00:07:33we're insignificant and on the other
- 00:07:34hand we're Central so which one is it
- 00:07:37right uh and so this all comes from not
- 00:07:40understanding actually the foundational
- 00:07:41role of experience this inability we
- 00:07:44can't it's we can't do science without
- 00:07:46already being present in the world we
- 00:07:48can't reduce uh what happens in science
- 00:07:51to some sort of formal it's a lot of it
- 00:07:53is about we love our formal systems you
- 00:07:55know our mathematics and and we're
- 00:07:57substituting that's one of the things
- 00:07:58that we there's two philosophers we
- 00:08:00really like or Heroes one is um herel
- 00:08:03who is a mathematician who invented
- 00:08:06phenomenology and the other is um
- 00:08:08Whitehead who's one of the greatest
- 00:08:09mathematicians of the 20th century and
- 00:08:12herro came up with this idea of the
- 00:08:14surreptitious substitution part of the
- 00:08:16blind spot is substituting a formal
- 00:08:18system a calculus of you know data for
- 00:08:21actual experience that that's more
- 00:08:23important than and so let me just do
- 00:08:25before I go to those three responses
- 00:08:27let's just do the parable of temperature
- 00:08:29because I think it'll people can it'll
- 00:08:30help them understand what we
- 00:08:32mean so think about uh degrees celi
- 00:08:36right we kind of have in the modern
- 00:08:38scientific culture we live in we think
- 00:08:39like oh yeah degrees Celsius they're out
- 00:08:41there Universe it's you know the the
- 00:08:43molecular cloud in space is 10 degrees
- 00:08:45you know Kelvin um the way we got there
- 00:08:49is we've forgotten how that idea is
- 00:08:52rooted in experience right we started
- 00:08:54off with science by we had the exper the
- 00:08:57subjective experience of hot and cold I
- 00:08:58feel hot I you I feel cold you feel hot
- 00:09:01you feel cold science was this process
- 00:09:03of trying to extract from those
- 00:09:06experiences what uh Michelle bitbol
- 00:09:08philosopher calls the structural
- 00:09:09invariance the things that like we could
- 00:09:11both kind of do agree on so you know we
- 00:09:14figured out like oh we could make a
- 00:09:15gradiated little cylinder that's got
- 00:09:17mercury in it and that you know uh hot
- 00:09:20things will be higher in that you know
- 00:09:22on that gradiated cylinder cold things
- 00:09:23will be lower and we can both kind of
- 00:09:25figure out what we're going to agree on
- 00:09:27our standards for that um and then we
- 00:09:30have thermometry yay we have a way of
- 00:09:31sort of like having a structural
- 00:09:33invariant of this sort of very personal
- 00:09:36uh experience of hot or cold and then
- 00:09:38from that we can come up with
- 00:09:39thermodynamics Etc and then we end up as
- 00:09:42at the bottom of you know at the end of
- 00:09:44that with this idea of like every day I
- 00:09:46wake up and I check my phone and I'm
- 00:09:47like oh it's going to be you know 60
- 00:09:48degrees out great and we start thinking
- 00:09:50that 60 Dees is more real than hot and
- 00:09:53cold that thermodynamics the whole
- 00:09:55formal structure of thermodynamics is
- 00:09:57more real than the basic experience of
- 00:10:00hot and cold that it came from you know
- 00:10:03it required that bodily experience that
- 00:10:07also not just me you I have to tell you
- 00:10:09know it's part of my communication with
- 00:10:10you cold today isn't it right that from
- 00:10:13that basic irreducible experience of
- 00:10:16being in the world you know with
- 00:10:18everything that involves I developed
- 00:10:20degrees Celsius but then I forgot about
- 00:10:23I forgot the experience so that's called
- 00:10:24the Amnesia of experience so that's what
- 00:10:27we mean by the you know how the blind
- 00:10:30spot emerges how we end up how science
- 00:10:32purposely pushes experience out of the
- 00:10:34way so it can make progress but then it
- 00:10:36forgets that experience was important so
- 00:10:40where does this show up why is this uh
- 00:10:41you know what are the responses to
- 00:10:43trying to get this back in and where
- 00:10:44where where this crisis of meaning
- 00:10:46emerge so scientific triumphalism is the
- 00:10:48idea that only the only thing that's
- 00:10:50true for us are scientific truths right
- 00:10:53unless it can be codified in a formal
- 00:10:55system and represented as data you know
- 00:10:57captured in some kind of scientific
- 00:10:59causal uh uh Network it doesn't even
- 00:11:02exist right and any anything else that's
- 00:11:04not part of it part that can be
- 00:11:07formalized in that way is an epip
- 00:11:08phenomena it's not real so you know
- 00:11:11scientific triumphalism is this response
- 00:11:14to to the m you know the weirdness of
- 00:11:17you know I could call it the mystery the
- 00:11:18weirdness of experience by kind of just
- 00:11:19ignoring it completely so there's no
- 00:11:21other truth you know art music you know
- 00:11:25human spirituality it's all actually
- 00:11:27reducible just to neuro you know neural
- 00:11:29correlates uh so that's one way that
- 00:11:32it's been dealt with the other way is
- 00:11:33this sort of right you've got on the on
- 00:11:34the uh postmodern you know the left
- 00:11:37academic left you get this thing like
- 00:11:38science is just a game you know it's
- 00:11:40just a game by from from that the
- 00:11:42powerful come up with um which is also
- 00:11:44not true science is totally potent and
- 00:11:46requires an account for what is
- 00:11:48happening uh so that's another way to
- 00:11:50push sort of science away um or respond
- 00:11:52to it the denial science denial that
- 00:11:54happens that's also another way of of
- 00:11:57sort of you know not understanding
- 00:12:00the balance that science is trying that
- 00:12:01we need to establish with experience and
- 00:12:04then there's just pseudo science which
- 00:12:05wants to sort of say like oh you know
- 00:12:07the New Age movement or whatever which
- 00:12:09wants to have you know wants to deal
- 00:12:11with experience by kind of elevating it
- 00:12:13in this weird pseudo spiritual way or
- 00:12:15you know so that doesn't have the rigor
- 00:12:17of science um so you know all of these
- 00:12:19ways all of these responses we have this
- 00:12:22difficulty about experience we need to
- 00:12:25understand how experience fits into the
- 00:12:27web of meaning um
- 00:12:29and we don't really have an accurate we
- 00:12:31don't have a good way of doing it yet
- 00:12:32and the point of the book was to
- 00:12:33identify very clearly how the problem
- 00:12:36manifests what the problem is and what
- 00:12:38its effects are in the various sciences
- 00:12:40and by the way we should mention that uh
- 00:12:43at least the the first two responses
- 00:12:46they kind of feed each other there's a
- 00:12:48just to observe the scientific Community
- 00:12:51those who sort of gravitate a little B
- 00:12:53towards
- 00:12:54the scientific triumphalism they there's
- 00:12:58an arrogance that builds in the human
- 00:13:01soul if I mean it has to do with phds it
- 00:13:04has to do with sitting on an academic
- 00:13:06Throne all all those things and the
- 00:13:08natur the human nature with the Egos and
- 00:13:10so on it builds and of course that
- 00:13:12nobody likes arrogance and so the those
- 00:13:14that reject science that the arrogance
- 00:13:16is fuel for the people that reject
- 00:13:18science I absolutely agree it just goes
- 00:13:20back and and it just is this divide that
- 00:13:22builds yeah no that was a problem like
- 00:13:23when you saw so like I said you know my
- 00:13:24first book was about science and human
- 00:13:26spirituality so I was trying to say that
- 00:13:28like you know science is actually if we
- 00:13:30look at what happens in human
- 00:13:32spirituality not religion religion is
- 00:13:33about politics right but about you know
- 00:13:35for the entire history of the species
- 00:13:37we've we've had this experience of for a
- 00:13:39better lack of a better word the
- 00:13:40sacredness I'm not connecting this God
- 00:13:43or anything I'm just saying this
- 00:13:44experience of like the more and then you
- 00:13:46know with the new atheist movement you
- 00:13:48got people saying that like anybody who
- 00:13:50feels that is an idiot you know they
- 00:13:53just can't handle the hardcore science
- 00:13:56when in fact their views of the world
- 00:13:58are so denuded of they can't even see
- 00:14:01the role that experience plays and how
- 00:14:03they came up with their formal systems
- 00:14:04you know and experience fundamentally is
- 00:14:06weird you know mysterious it's like it's
- 00:14:08it's you know kind of goes down forever
- 00:14:10in some sense there is always more so
- 00:14:12yeah that arrogance then just if you're
- 00:14:14telling everybody who's not hardcore
- 00:14:16enough to do the you know standard model
- 00:14:18of cosmology that they're idiots that's
- 00:14:20not going to bode well for your you know
- 00:14:21the advance of your project so you're
- 00:14:23proposing at least to consider the idea
- 00:14:26that experience is a is fundamental
- 00:14:29experience is Not Just an Illusion that
- 00:14:31emerges from the set of quirks that
- 00:14:34there could be something about the
- 00:14:36conscious experience of the world that
- 00:14:37is like at the core of reality yeah but
- 00:14:41I wouldn't do it I wouldn't because you
- 00:14:42know there's pan psychism right which
- 00:14:44wants to say that's all the way there
- 00:14:46psychism is like that's literally one of
- 00:14:48the laws of physics is see what all
- 00:14:51those do is like just the idea of say
- 00:14:53like physicalism versus idealism which
- 00:14:55are kind of the two philosophical
- 00:14:56schools you can go with physicalism says
- 00:14:58all that exists is physical idealism
- 00:15:00says all that exists is mind we're
- 00:15:02actually saying look both of these to
- 00:15:04take either of those positions is
- 00:15:06already to project out into that third
- 00:15:08person view right and that third person
- 00:15:11view we want to really emphasize is a
- 00:15:14fiction it's a useful fiction when
- 00:15:16you're doing science right if I want to
- 00:15:17do like you know the the Newtonian
- 00:15:19physics of billiard balls on a pool
- 00:15:21table great I don't want to have to
- 00:15:23think about experience at all right but
- 00:15:25you know if I'm asking deeper questions
- 00:15:27I can't ignore the fact that there
- 00:15:29really is no third person view and that
- 00:15:31any story I tell about the world is
- 00:15:34coming from it's not just first person
- 00:15:37but it's literally because I I'm going
- 00:15:38to argue that experience always involves
- 00:15:40all of us experience always originates
- 00:15:42out of a community that you know you're
- 00:15:45always telling those stories from the
- 00:15:48the perspective of already existing of
- 00:15:50already being in experience so whatever
- 00:15:53account we want to give is of the world
- 00:15:56is going to have to take that as IR
- 00:15:58experience as being irreducible and the
- 00:16:00irreducible starting point so ultimately
- 00:16:03like we don't have an answer like that's
- 00:16:04when people are like well what are you
- 00:16:05suggesting as the alternative it's like
- 00:16:07look that's the good work of the next
- 00:16:08science to come well our job was to
- 00:16:10point out the problem with this but what
- 00:16:12we would argue with is and we're
- 00:16:14thinking about the next book is this is
- 00:16:15really going to require a new conception
- 00:16:17of nature right that doesn't sort of
- 00:16:20jump right to that third person that
- 00:16:22fictional third person view and somehow
- 00:16:24figures out how to do science
- 00:16:26recognizing that it always starts from
- 00:16:28EXP experience it always starts from
- 00:16:30this field of experience or or in
- 00:16:32phenomenology the word is the life world
- 00:16:34that you're embedded in you can't unemed
- 00:16:36yourself from it so how do you do so so
- 00:16:39the one of the the things that Whitehead
- 00:16:41said was you you know we have to avoid
- 00:16:42the bifurcation of Nature and what he
- 00:16:45meant by that is the bifurcation into
- 00:16:46like sort of scientific Concepts
- 00:16:49wavelength you know think about like the
- 00:16:50seeing a sunset you can say like oh look
- 00:16:52it's just wavelengths you know and
- 00:16:54scattering particles and your experience
- 00:16:56of the redness the actual experience of
- 00:16:58the redness and the all the other things
- 00:16:59it's not just red there's no qualia
- 00:17:01there's no pure redness everything
- 00:17:03that's happening in the experiential
- 00:17:04part is just an epip phenomena it's just
- 00:17:06you know brain States whatever he said
- 00:17:08you can't do that they're just they're
- 00:17:10both real they're both accounts they're
- 00:17:12both they both need to be integrated and
- 00:17:15so that required I think a really a
- 00:17:17different conception of what we mean by
- 00:17:18nature is it something like
- 00:17:22incorporating in the physics in the
- 00:17:24study of nature The Observer the
- 00:17:26experiencing Observer or is that still
- 00:17:28also from a third person I think that
- 00:17:30that's what we have to figure out right
- 00:17:32and so actually you know a great place
- 00:17:33to think about this is quantum mechanics
- 00:17:34right because one of the things we're
- 00:17:35arguing is like look in the in the
- 00:17:38chapter that I wrote on because it was I
- 00:17:40wrote this with Evan Thompson who's a
- 00:17:42wonderful philosopher and Marcelo gazer
- 00:17:44who's a theoretical physicist um when I
- 00:17:46was writing the chapter on the origin of
- 00:17:47the blind spot like you know sort of
- 00:17:49what how this emerged out of History my
- 00:17:52the subheader was like well it made
- 00:17:53sense at the time because it did you
- 00:17:55know it really there was a reason why
- 00:17:57people adopted this third person God's
- 00:17:59eye deterministic view this view of sort
- 00:18:02of like yeah the perfect Clockwork of
- 00:18:04the universe yeah totally made sense but
- 00:18:06by the time you got to the beginning of
- 00:18:07the 20th century science itself was
- 00:18:09telling you like eh and no place does
- 00:18:12this appear more than in quantum
- 00:18:13mechanics right quantum mechanics slams
- 00:18:17you with the idea that the of the
- 00:18:19measurement problem you know uh the most
- 00:18:22important thing about quantum mechanics
- 00:18:23is you have a dynamical equation the
- 00:18:26schroer equation which you know you put
- 00:18:27in like we talked about before you have
- 00:18:29initial conditions and now you got a
- 00:18:30differential equation and you crank out
- 00:18:32the differential equation and it makes
- 00:18:33predictions for the future right exactly
- 00:18:35like Newtonian physics or its higher
- 00:18:37versions of the lrange or hamiltonians
- 00:18:41but then this other thing happens where
- 00:18:42it's like oh by the way as soon as you
- 00:18:44look at it as soon as the measurement is
- 00:18:46made I have a whole another set of rules
- 00:18:49for you you know that's the born what we
- 00:18:50call the born
- 00:18:51Rule and I was telling you right from
- 00:18:53the beginning that measurement matters
- 00:18:56right so when you're asking like how
- 00:18:58will we do this Quant mechanics is
- 00:19:00actually pointing to how to do it so you
- 00:19:02know there's been all these different
- 00:19:03interpretations of the quantum mechanics
- 00:19:05many of them try to pretend the
- 00:19:07measurement problem isn't there go to
- 00:19:08enormous lengths like the uh the many
- 00:19:11worlds interpretation literally
- 00:19:12inventing an infinite number of
- 00:19:14unobservable parallel universes to avoid
- 00:19:17the thing that quantum mechanics is
- 00:19:18telling them which is that measurements
- 00:19:20matter and then you get something like
- 00:19:22cubism which is I'm going to advocate
- 00:19:24for is a new interpretation of quantum
- 00:19:25mechanics which puts the born rule at
- 00:19:28the center right right instead of like
- 00:19:29focusing on the Schrodinger equation and
- 00:19:31the weird things that come out of it
- 00:19:32like Schrodinger's Cat and all that
- 00:19:34other stuff it says no no actually the
- 00:19:35real mystery is the born rule let's
- 00:19:38think about the born Rule and like you
- 00:19:40said that puts the agent the agent and
- 00:19:43information at the center of the whole
- 00:19:46thing so that's not a thing you're
- 00:19:47trying to get rid of that's that's a
- 00:19:49thing you're trying to integrate at the
- 00:19:50center of the thing in quantum mechanics
- 00:19:52it becomes super obvious but maybe this
- 00:19:54same kind of uh thing should be
- 00:19:58incorporated in in
- 00:20:01every uh layer of of study of nature
- 00:20:04absolutely that's exactly it so you know
- 00:20:06one of the things that's really
- 00:20:07interesting to me so I'm I'm you know I
- 00:20:08have a project I'm part of a big project
- 00:20:10uh that Chris fuks and jacqu spaner on
- 00:20:13cubism so I've been part of that and
- 00:20:14what I've been Amazed by is the language
- 00:20:17they use so what's cool about cubism is
- 00:20:19it comes from Quantum information Theory
- 00:20:21it's a pretty modern version of thinking
- 00:20:23about quantum mechanics and it's always
- 00:20:25about um you have an agent who makes a
- 00:20:30an action on the world and then the
- 00:20:32information they get from that action
- 00:20:34through the the experiment that's the
- 00:20:36action on the world updates their priors
- 00:20:38updates their their you know their
- 00:20:40basian that's why it's called cubism
- 00:20:41Quantum basian ISM updates how the
- 00:20:44information they've gotten from the
- 00:20:45world now this turns out to be kind of
- 00:20:48the same language that we're using in a
- 00:20:50project that's about the physics of life
- 00:20:53where um we have a grant from the uh
- 00:20:55Templeton Foundation to look at semantic
- 00:20:57information and the role of semantic
- 00:20:59information in living systems like cells
- 00:21:01so you know we have Shannon information
- 00:21:03which is a probability distribution that
- 00:21:05tells you you know basically how much
- 00:21:07surprise there is in a in a message
- 00:21:09semantic information focuses on meaning
- 00:21:12right focuses on and and a very simple
- 00:21:15way just like what is how much of the
- 00:21:17information that I'm that the agent you
- 00:21:19know the Critter is getting from the
- 00:21:21world actually has uh helps it survive
- 00:21:25right that's the most basic idea of
- 00:21:27meaning right we can get all f opical
- 00:21:28about meaning but this is it does it
- 00:21:30help me stay alive or not and the whole
- 00:21:32question of agency and autonomy that
- 00:21:36occurs in this setting of just asking
- 00:21:38about how do cells move up a a chemical
- 00:21:40gradient to get more food kind of has
- 00:21:43the same feel the same you know sort of
- 00:21:45architecture as what's going on in
- 00:21:47quantum mechanics so I think what you
- 00:21:48said is exactly it how do we bring this
- 00:21:50sort of recognition that there's always
- 00:21:54us the agent or life the agent
- 00:21:57interacting with the world uh and
- 00:21:59drawing in both giving information and
- 00:22:01passing information back as a way of of
- 00:22:04doing science doing hardcore science
- 00:22:05with experiments but never forgetting
- 00:22:08that agency which also means experience
- 00:22:10in some sense is at the center of the
- 00:22:11whole thing so you think that could be
- 00:22:13something like cubism Quantum
- 00:22:17bism that creates a theory like a Nobel
- 00:22:21prize winning Theory sort of
- 00:22:23like hardcore real theories that put the
- 00:22:27agent at the center yes that's what
- 00:22:28we're looking for I think that is really
- 00:22:30that's the exciting part and it's a move
- 00:22:32you know the scientific triumphalist
- 00:22:33thing says you know you understand why
- 00:22:36people love this like I have these
- 00:22:38equations and these equations represent
- 00:22:40you know there's this platonic idea that
- 00:22:42they are you know they exist eternally
- 00:22:45on their own it's kind of Quasi
- 00:22:46religious right it's sort of like
- 00:22:48somehow look these equations are the
- 00:22:50you're reading the mind of God but this
- 00:22:52other approach to me is just as exciting
- 00:22:54because what you're saying is there's us
- 00:22:56and the world they are in able right
- 00:22:59it's always us and the world and what
- 00:23:01we're now finding about is this kind of
- 00:23:03co-creation this this interaction you
- 00:23:06know between the agent and the world
- 00:23:08such that these powerful laws of physics
- 00:23:11that need an account like in no way am I
- 00:23:13saying these laws aren't important these
- 00:23:14laws are amazing but they need an
- 00:23:16account but not an account that strips
- 00:23:19you know that turns the experience turns
- 00:23:22the agent into just a you know an epip
- 00:23:25phenomena that it pushes the agent out
- 00:23:27and makes it seem as if the agent not
- 00:23:28the most important part of the story so
- 00:23:30if you pull on this
- 00:23:32thread and say there's a whole
- 00:23:34discipline born of this putting the
- 00:23:36agent as the primary thing in a theory
- 00:23:39in a physics theory like how is it
- 00:23:42possible it just like breaks the whole
- 00:23:44thing open so there's this whole effort
- 00:23:46of uh you know um unifying general
- 00:23:49relativity and quantum mechanics of like
- 00:23:51coming up with a theory of everything
- 00:23:53what if these are
- 00:23:55like the the tip of the iceberg
- 00:23:59what what if the the agent thing is like
- 00:24:02really important so you know listen that
- 00:24:05that would be like kind of my dream uh
- 00:24:07I'm not going to be the one to do it
- 00:24:08because I'm not smart enough to do it uh
- 00:24:10but you know Marcelo and I have for a
- 00:24:12while have been sort of critical of
- 00:24:14where foundational physics has been for
- 00:24:16a while with strength Theory I've spent
- 00:24:18my whole life listening to talks about
- 00:24:20strength Theory real soon you know um
- 00:24:23and it's gotten ever more
- 00:24:26disconnected from you know data
- 00:24:29observations there were people talking
- 00:24:31for a while that it's post empirical uh
- 00:24:34and you know I want always wanted to
- 00:24:35write a paper or an article that was
- 00:24:37like SM physicists have been smoking
- 00:24:38their own stash right there's this way
- 00:24:40we've gotten used to like you know you
- 00:24:42have to out weird the other person like
- 00:24:44my theory has 38 dimensions and my
- 00:24:46theory has 22 Dimensions but it's got
- 00:24:48you know uh you know psychedelic
- 00:24:51squirrels in it and so there's been a
- 00:24:53problem there's a problem I'm I don't
- 00:24:54need to tell you there's a crisis in
- 00:24:56physics or there's a crisis in cosmology
- 00:24:58other people have used that that's been
- 00:24:59the the headline on Scientific American
- 00:25:02stories so there clearly another
- 00:25:04Direction has to be found and maybe it
- 00:25:06has nothing to do with this but I I
- 00:25:09suspect
- 00:25:11that because so many times the agent or
- 00:25:14the the the having to deal with the the
- 00:25:17view from the inside or the the the role
- 00:25:19of agency like when it comes to time
- 00:25:22thinking that you can replace the block
- 00:25:24Universe with the actual experience of
- 00:25:27time you know clocks don't tell time we
- 00:25:30use clocks to tell time so it maybe that
- 00:25:32even like the fundamental nature of time
- 00:25:34can't be viewed from the outside that
- 00:25:35there's a a new physics theory that is
- 00:25:38going to come from that comes from this
- 00:25:40agential informational computational
- 00:25:43view um I don't know but that's kind of
- 00:25:45what I I I think it would be fertile
- 00:25:49ground to explore yeah like time is
- 00:25:51really interesting one this time is
- 00:25:54really important to us humans what is
- 00:25:56time yeah that's a right what is time so
- 00:25:59the way we have tended to view it is
- 00:26:01we've taken this is what when heral
- 00:26:02talks about the syruptitious
- 00:26:04substitution we've taken Einstein's
- 00:26:07beautiful powerful formal system for
- 00:26:11viewing time and
- 00:26:13we substituted that for the actual
- 00:26:16experience of time right so the block
- 00:26:18Universe where like next Tuesday is
- 00:26:20already written down you know it's in
- 00:26:22the block un the four dimensional
- 00:26:23Universe all events are already there uh
- 00:26:25which is very potent for making certain
- 00:26:27kinds of predictions within the sort of
- 00:26:29you know the scientific framework but
- 00:26:32you know it is not lived time and uh you
- 00:26:35know this was pointed out to Einstein
- 00:26:37and he eventually recognized it very
- 00:26:39famous meeting between HRI burkson who
- 00:26:42was a the most famous philosopher of
- 00:26:43like the you know 20 early 20th century
- 00:26:46and Einstein where Einstein was giving a
- 00:26:48talk on relativity and burkson whose
- 00:26:50whole thing was about time and was about
- 00:26:52duration he wanted to separate the
- 00:26:54scientific image of time the map
- 00:26:58of time from the actual terrain which he
- 00:27:01used the word duration like we humans
- 00:27:04where where duration for us is full it's
- 00:27:06it's sort of um it's stretched out it's
- 00:27:08got a little bit of the past a little
- 00:27:09bit of the future a little bit of the
- 00:27:10present music is the best example right
- 00:27:12you're hearing music you're both already
- 00:27:14anticipating what's going to happen and
- 00:27:16you you know remembering what's going on
- 00:27:19there's a kind of phenomenal structure
- 00:27:22there which is is different from the
- 00:27:26representation of time that you have
- 00:27:27with the formal mathematics and what uh
- 00:27:29you know the way we would look at this
- 00:27:32is that the problem with the
- 00:27:32syruptitious substitution the problem
- 00:27:34with the blind spot is it says oh no no
- 00:27:37the formal system is time but really the
- 00:27:39only place time appears is with us right
- 00:27:42where we're time you know so having a
- 00:27:44theory that actually could start with us
- 00:27:47you know and then stretch out into the
- 00:27:48universe rather than imposing this
- 00:27:50imaginary third person view back on us
- 00:27:54you know could that's a route towards a
- 00:27:57different way of approaching the whole
- 00:27:58problem I just wonder who is the
- 00:27:59Observer I mean defying what the agent
- 00:28:01is right in any kind of frame is
- 00:28:05difficult is difficult right and so that
- 00:28:07but that's the good work of the science
- 00:28:08ahead of us right what so what happened
- 00:28:10with this idea of the structural
- 00:28:11invariance I was talking about so you
- 00:28:12know we start with experience which is
- 00:28:14irreducible there's no atoms of
- 00:28:15experience right it's a whole um and we
- 00:28:18go through the whole process which is a
- 00:28:19communal process by the way there's a
- 00:28:21philosopher Robert cre who talks about
- 00:28:22the workshop that starting in like the
- 00:28:241700s 1600s we developed this communal
- 00:28:28uh uh space to work in sometimes it was
- 00:28:31literally a physical space a laboratory
- 00:28:33where these ideas would be pulled apart
- 00:28:35refined argued over and then validated
- 00:28:38and we went to the next step so this
- 00:28:40idea of pulling out from experience
- 00:28:42these thinner abstract structural
- 00:28:45invariance the things that we could
- 00:28:47actually do science with and it's kind
- 00:28:49of like we call it an ascending spiral
- 00:28:50of abstraction right so the problem with
- 00:28:54the way we do things now is we take that
- 00:28:57those distractions which came from
- 00:28:59experience and then with something like
- 00:29:01you
- 00:29:02know a computational model of
- 00:29:05Consciousness or experience we think we
- 00:29:06can put it back in like you literally
- 00:29:08pulled out these super thin things these
- 00:29:11abstractions you know neglecting
- 00:29:13experience because that's the only way
- 00:29:15to do science and then you think somehow
- 00:29:16oh I'm G to put I'm going to jam
- 00:29:18experience back in and and you know have
- 00:29:20a an explanation for experience so do
- 00:29:22you think it's possible to show that
- 00:29:23something like Free Will is quote
- 00:29:25unquote real if you integrate experience
- 00:29:28back into this physics into the physics
- 00:29:30model of the world what I would say is
- 00:29:32that free will is is a given and that's
- 00:29:35the thing about experience right so one
- 00:29:36of the things that Whitehead said I
- 00:29:37really love this quote he says it's not
- 00:29:39the job of either science or philosophy
- 00:29:42to account for the concrete it's the job
- 00:29:44to account for the abstract the the
- 00:29:48concrete what's happening between us
- 00:29:50right now is just given you know it's
- 00:29:52just it's presented to us every day it's
- 00:29:54presented to if you want an explanation
- 00:29:56fine but the explanation actually does
- 00:29:58doesn't add anything to it right so that
- 00:30:00Free Will in some sense is the nature of
- 00:30:02being an agent right to be an agent
- 00:30:04agency and autonomy are sort of the two
- 00:30:06things that are you know that they're
- 00:30:08they're equivalent and so in some sense
- 00:30:10to be an agent is to be autonomous and
- 00:30:12so then the question really to ask is
- 00:30:14can you have an account for agency and
- 00:30:17autonomy that captures aspects of its
- 00:30:22it's arising in the world or the way it
- 00:30:23and the world sort of co- arise um but
- 00:30:26the idea you know the reason why argue
- 00:30:28about free will often is because we
- 00:30:29already have this blind spot view that
- 00:30:31the world is deterministic because of
- 00:30:33our equations which themselves we treat
- 00:30:35the equations as if they're more real
- 00:30:37than experience you know and the
- 00:30:39equations are a paler you know they
- 00:30:42don't Corral experience they are a
- 00:30:44thinner you know representation as we
- 00:30:46like to say don't confuse the map for
- 00:30:48the terrain what's happening between us
- 00:30:50right now in this you know all the
- 00:30:52weirdness of it that's the terrain the
- 00:30:54map is what I can write down on
- 00:30:55equations and then in the workshop do
- 00:30:57experiments on super powerful needs an
- 00:31:00account but experience overflows that
- 00:31:03what if the experience is an illusion
- 00:31:05like how how do we know what if the
- 00:31:08agency that we experience is an illusion
- 00:31:11an illusion looking from where like
- 00:31:13right because that already requires to
- 00:31:15to take that stance is you've already
- 00:31:16pushed yourself into that third person
- 00:31:18view right and so what we're saying is
- 00:31:21that's a that third person view which
- 00:31:22now you're going to say like oh I've got
- 00:31:23a whole other set of entities of
- 00:31:26ontological entities meaning you know
- 00:31:28things that I think exist in God's
- 00:31:30living room in spite you know that are
- 00:31:32independent of me and the community of
- 00:31:35living things I'm part of so you're
- 00:31:37pushing it elsewhere this just like
- 00:31:39there's a stack of turtles is
- 00:31:41probably if if this experience The Human
- 00:31:44Experience is an illusion maybe there's
- 00:31:46an
- 00:31:47observer for whom it's not an illusion
- 00:31:49so you always have to find an observer
- 00:31:50somewhere yeah right and that's where
- 00:31:52that's why you know fundamentally the
- 00:31:53the blind spot the especially the
- 00:31:55scientific triumphalist part is is
- 00:31:57following religious impulse you know
- 00:31:59it's wanting the God's eye view and you
- 00:32:01know what's really interesting and when
- 00:32:03we think about this and the way this
- 00:32:04gets talked about especially publicly
- 00:32:06you know there's a line of philosophical
- 00:32:08inquiry that this language gets couched
- 00:32:11in and it is actually a pretty it's only
- 00:32:14one version of philosophy right so it is
- 00:32:18pretty much what we call the analytic
- 00:32:19tradition right um but there's even in
- 00:32:21Europe in the or or in the western
- 00:32:23tradition in the you know for Western
- 00:32:25what we'll call Western philosophy
- 00:32:26there's phenomenology heral and Iger and
- 00:32:29meru panti which took an entirely
- 00:32:31different track they were really
- 00:32:32interested in the structure of
- 00:32:34experience they spent all their time
- 00:32:35trying to understand trying to develop a
- 00:32:37language that could kind of climb into
- 00:32:39the circle that is experience right you
- 00:32:42experience you're not going to be able
- 00:32:43to start with axioms and work your way
- 00:32:44to it it's it's given so you have to
- 00:32:46kind of jump in and then try and find a
- 00:32:48language to account for its structure
- 00:32:51but then so that that has not been part
- 00:32:53of this discussion about you'll never
- 00:32:55good luck finding a YouTube video where
- 00:32:58someone you know a famous scientist is
- 00:33:00talking about science from a
- 00:33:02phenomenological point of view even
- 00:33:03though it's a huge branch of philosophy
- 00:33:06and then you get the philosophies that
- 00:33:07occurred from other cores of
- 00:33:09civilization right so there's the
- 00:33:11there's the Western core out of which
- 00:33:13comes the Greeks and the you know the
- 00:33:14judeo Christian Islamic tradition but
- 00:33:17then you get India and you get Asia and
- 00:33:19they developed their own they were
- 00:33:20highly complex societies that developed
- 00:33:22their own responses to these questions
- 00:33:25and they for reasons because they had
- 00:33:27contemp of practice they were very
- 00:33:29focused on like direct trying to like
- 00:33:31directly probe attention and experence
- 00:33:34they asked questions in ways that the
- 00:33:36West never really did phenomenology kind
- 00:33:38of started it but you know there's
- 00:33:40there's philosophers like um narina and
- 00:33:42vasu bondu and they're like the Plato
- 00:33:45and the you know Aristotle of you know
- 00:33:47sort of those philosophies and they were
- 00:33:49really focused on experience in the west
- 00:33:51I think maybe because we had uh the
- 00:33:54judeo-christian tradition where we
- 00:33:56already had this kind of God who was
- 00:33:58going to be the frame on which you could
- 00:33:59always point to that frame the in the uh
- 00:34:02the Traditions that came from the
- 00:34:04classical philosophies of Indian Asia
- 00:34:07they started always with they wanted to
- 00:34:08know about experience their whole
- 00:34:10philosophies and their logic and their
- 00:34:12their argumentation was based on I've
- 00:34:15got this experience I can't get out of
- 00:34:17this experience how do I reason from it
- 00:34:19so I think there's like a lot of other
- 00:34:21philosophical traditions that we could
- 00:34:22draw from you know not like slavishly we
- 00:34:24don't have to become Buddhists to do it
- 00:34:26but there are Traditions that really
- 00:34:27tried to work this out in a way that the
- 00:34:30Western Traditions just didn't but
- 00:34:32there's also the Practical fact that uh
- 00:34:35is difficult to build a logical system
- 00:34:37on top of experience it's difficult to
- 00:34:39have the rigor of science on top of
- 00:34:41experience and so
- 00:34:43it's as science advances we might get
- 00:34:45better and better like the same is it's
- 00:34:47very difficult to have any kind of
- 00:34:49mathematical or kind of scientific rigor
- 00:34:51to uh uh why complexity emerges from
- 00:34:57simple rules and simple objects sort of
- 00:34:59the Santa Fe questions yeah I think but
- 00:35:01I think we can do it I think there's
- 00:35:03aspects of it I mean as long as you're
- 00:35:04never trying to like this is what
- 00:35:06experience is like I think that's kind
- 00:35:07of the where we you know you're never
- 00:35:08going to have a causal account of
- 00:35:12experience because it's just given but
- 00:35:13you can do lots about and that's what
- 00:35:15the good work is is to how do I approach
- 00:35:18this how do I approach this in a way
- 00:35:19that's rigorous that I can do
- 00:35:20experiments with also um but so for
- 00:35:22example I was just reading this
- 00:35:23beautiful paper that was talking about
- 00:35:25in the you know this is what we're ING
- 00:35:27with our semantic information too causal
- 00:35:30closure love this idea right the idea
- 00:35:33that so we talked about autop poesis a
- 00:35:35while back right the idea that living
- 00:35:37systems are um they are self-creating
- 00:35:40and self-maintaining so the the membrane
- 00:35:43cell membrane is a great example of this
- 00:35:44right the cell membrane you can't have a
- 00:35:46cell without a cell membrane the cell
- 00:35:48membrane lets stuff through keeps other
- 00:35:51stuff out right but the cell membrane is
- 00:35:53part of the processes and it's a product
- 00:35:57of the the processes that the cell
- 00:35:59membrane needs right in some sense the
- 00:36:02cell me cell membrane creates itself so
- 00:36:05there's this strange it's always with
- 00:36:07life there's always this strange Loop
- 00:36:09and so somehow figuring out how to jump
- 00:36:10into that strange Loop is you know the
- 00:36:13science that's ahead of us and so this
- 00:36:14idea of causal closure accounting for
- 00:36:17how the you know we talk about like um
- 00:36:20uh downward causation right so
- 00:36:23reductionism says everything only
- 00:36:24depends on the micro State everything
- 00:36:26just depends on the atoms right that's
- 00:36:27it you don't really if you know if you
- 00:36:29know the lran for the standard model
- 00:36:31you're done you know of course in
- 00:36:33principle you need God's computer but
- 00:36:34fine you know in you know in principle
- 00:36:36it could be done colossal closure and
- 00:36:39there's I was just reading this great
- 00:36:40paper that sort of argues for this
- 00:36:42there's ways in which using Epsilon
- 00:36:44machines and all this Machinery from
- 00:36:46information theory that you can see ways
- 00:36:49in which the system can organize itself
- 00:36:52so that it decouples from the micro
- 00:36:54States now the macro State fundamentally
- 00:36:57no longer needs the micro state for its
- 00:36:59own description its own account of the
- 00:37:01laws whether that paper is true or not
- 00:37:03it's an example of heading down that
- 00:37:05road there's also Robert rosen's work he
- 00:37:07was a theoretical biologist who he was
- 00:37:10you know he talked about closure to
- 00:37:11efficient cause that that living systems
- 00:37:14you know are organizationally closed are
- 00:37:17are causally closed so that they don't
- 00:37:19depend anymore on the micro State and he
- 00:37:21made he had a proof which is very
- 00:37:22contentious nobody knows if it's you
- 00:37:24know some argue it's true some argue
- 00:37:25it's not but he said that because of
- 00:37:28this living systems are not Church
- 00:37:30Turing complete they cannot be
- 00:37:33represented as formal systems so you
- 00:37:35know in that way they're not axioms
- 00:37:37they're not living systems will not be
- 00:37:39axioms they can only be partially
- 00:37:41captured by algorithms now again people
- 00:37:44fight back and forth about whether or
- 00:37:45not his proof was you know is is valid
- 00:37:47or not but I'm saying I'm giving you
- 00:37:48examples of like you know when you when
- 00:37:51you see the blind spot when you
- 00:37:53acknowledge the blind spot it opens up a
- 00:37:55whole other class of kinds of scientific
- 00:37:57investigations you know the book we
- 00:37:59thought was going to be really heretical
- 00:38:01right you know obviously you know most
- 00:38:03most public facing scientists are very
- 00:38:05sort of in that especially scientific
- 00:38:07Triumph so we were just like waiting you
- 00:38:09know waiting for the fight and then the
- 00:38:10review from science came out and it was
- 00:38:12like totally Pro yeah they was very
- 00:38:16positive we're like oh my God you know
- 00:38:19and then a review came out in nature
- 00:38:20physics and it was totally positive and
- 00:38:23then a review came out in the Wall
- 00:38:24Street Journal cuz we kind of criticized
- 00:38:27not capitalism but we criticized sort of
- 00:38:29all industrial economies for that they
- 00:38:30were sort of had been touched by the
- 00:38:32blind spot socialism communism doesn't
- 00:38:34matter these extractive you know had
- 00:38:36sort of had that sort of view that the
- 00:38:38world is just reducible to you know uh
- 00:38:41resources The Wall Street Journal gave
- 00:38:43us a great review so I feels like
- 00:38:45there's actually out there there is some
- 00:38:48among working scientists in particular
- 00:38:49there is some dissatisfaction with this
- 00:38:52triumphalist View and a recognition that
- 00:38:53we need to shift something in order to
- 00:38:56like jump past these hurdles that we've
- 00:38:58been arguing about forever and we're not
- 00:39:01you know we sort of stuck in a Vortex
- 00:39:03well it is I mean I think there is a
- 00:39:04hunger to acknowledge that there's an
- 00:39:06elephant in the room like that we're
- 00:39:07just
- 00:39:08removing the agent like it's everyone is
- 00:39:11doing it and it's like yeah yeah we
- 00:39:13there's a the the experience and then
- 00:39:16there's the third
- 00:39:17person perspective on the world right
- 00:39:20and so to man science from a applying
- 00:39:24scientific riger from a firstperson
- 00:39:26perspective is very difficult I mean
- 00:39:28it's fascinating I think we can do it
- 00:39:30because it's also the thing you know
- 00:39:31what's really interesting is it's I
- 00:39:32think it's not just first person it's
- 00:39:34first and second right because science
- 00:39:37because when so like one idea is that we
- 00:39:39you know the idea that oh science gives
- 00:39:41us this objective third person view
- 00:39:43that's one way of talking about
- 00:39:45objectivity there's a whole other way is
- 00:39:46that I do the experiment you do the
- 00:39:47experiment we talk to each other we
- 00:39:49agree on methods and we both get the
- 00:39:51same result that is a very different way
- 00:39:53of thinking about objectivity and it
- 00:39:56acknowledges that you know when we talk
- 00:39:59about agents agency and individuality
- 00:40:02are flexible right so there's a great
- 00:40:03paper speaking of Santa Fe by David
- 00:40:05krackow where they looked at sort of
- 00:40:07information theoretic measures of
- 00:40:08individuality and what you find is it's
- 00:40:10actually pretty fluid like my liver cell
- 00:40:13is an individual but really it's part of
- 00:40:15the liver and my liver is you know a
- 00:40:17separate system but really it's part of
- 00:40:18me but I'm so I'm an individual yay but
- 00:40:21actually I'm part of a society like and
- 00:40:23I I couldn't be me without the entire
- 00:40:26community of say language users right I
- 00:40:28wouldn't even be able to frame any
- 00:40:30questions and the my community of
- 00:40:32language users is part of ecosystems
- 00:40:35right that are alive that I am a part of
- 00:40:37a lineage of this is like Sarah Walker
- 00:40:38stuff and then that those ecosystems are
- 00:40:41part of the biosphere right we're never
- 00:40:43separable as opposed to this very
- 00:40:45atomizing the triumphalist science view
- 00:40:48is want like boltman brains you're just
- 00:40:49a brain floating in the space you know
- 00:40:52yeah there's a fascinating degree to
- 00:40:55which uh a is fluid like you are an
- 00:40:58individual but you and I talking is the
- 00:41:01kind of individual yeah and
- 00:41:04then uh the person listening to this
- 00:41:07right now is also an individual I mean
- 00:41:09that's a weird thing too that's a weird
- 00:41:10thing right because there's like there's
- 00:41:11a broadcast nature too this is why
- 00:41:14information theoretic so so the idea
- 00:41:16that we're pursuing now which I get
- 00:41:18really excited about is this idea of
- 00:41:19information architecture right or
- 00:41:22organization informational organization
- 00:41:24because you know right physicalism is
- 00:41:25like everything's atoms but you know
- 00:41:27Kant recogn Kant is apparently the one
- 00:41:29who came up with the word organism cuz
- 00:41:31he recognized that life has a weird
- 00:41:33organization that would see specifically
- 00:41:35different from machines and so this idea
- 00:41:38that how do we engage with the idea that
- 00:41:43organization which is often I can be
- 00:41:45cast in information theoretic terms uh
- 00:41:48or computational terms even is sort of
- 00:41:51it's not really quite physical right
- 00:41:53it's it's embodied in physical you know
- 00:41:55in the physical has to instantiate in
- 00:41:56the physical but it also has this other
- 00:41:58realm of of design you know and some not
- 00:42:01design like intelligent design but
- 00:42:03there's a you know organization itself
- 00:42:05is is a relationship of constraints and
- 00:42:07information flow and I think again
- 00:42:08that's an entirely new interesting way
- 00:42:11that we might get a very different kind
- 00:42:12of science that would flow out of that
- 00:42:14so going back to content
- 00:42:17organism versus
- 00:42:20machine so I showed you uh a couple of
- 00:42:24uh Leed robots very cool is it possible
- 00:42:27for machines to to have agency I would
- 00:42:30not discount that possibility um I think
- 00:42:33it you know there's no reason I would
- 00:42:37say that it's impossible that machines
- 00:42:39could whatever it manifests that strange
- 00:42:41Loop that we're talking about that autop
- 00:42:43poesis um I don't think there's a reason
- 00:42:46to say it can't happen in uh in a in
- 00:42:50Silicon I think whatever it would it
- 00:42:52would be very different from us like the
- 00:42:53idea that it would be like oh it would
- 00:42:55be just like us but now it's
- 00:42:56instantiated I think it might have very
- 00:42:58different kind of experiential nature um
- 00:43:01I don't think I don't think what we have
- 00:43:03now like the llms are really there um
- 00:43:07but uh but I yeah I I I I'm not going to
- 00:43:10say that it's not possible I wonder how
- 00:43:12far you can get with imitation which is
- 00:43:14essentially what llms are doing so
- 00:43:16imitating humans and I I wouldn't
- 00:43:18discount either the possibility that
- 00:43:21through imitation you can
- 00:43:22achieve uh what you call Consciousness
- 00:43:25or uh agency or the ability to have
- 00:43:28experience I think for most us humans
- 00:43:30they think oh that's just fake that's
- 00:43:32copying but there's some degree to which
- 00:43:35us we humans are just copying each other
- 00:43:38we just are really good imitation
- 00:43:40machines come from babies we were born
- 00:43:42in this world and we're just learning to
- 00:43:43imitate each other and through the
- 00:43:45imitation and the tension in the
- 00:43:47disagreements in the imitations we uh
- 00:43:50gain personality perspective all that
- 00:43:52kind of stuff yeah I think so I I you
- 00:43:55know it's possible right it's possible
- 00:43:57but I think probably the view I'm
- 00:43:58advocating would say that one of the
- 00:44:01most important parts of agency is
- 00:44:05there's something called E4 E4 the E4
- 00:44:07theory of Co cognition embodiment
- 00:44:10inaction embedding and there's another
- 00:44:12one extension but so the idea is that
- 00:44:15you actually have to be in a body which
- 00:44:18is itself part of an environment that is
- 00:44:22the physical nature of it and of the of
- 00:44:25the extension in with other living
- 00:44:27systems as well is essential so that's
- 00:44:31why I think the llms are not gonna the
- 00:44:33it's not just imitation it's going to
- 00:44:35require this goes to the brain in the
- 00:44:36vat thing I did a an article about the
- 00:44:38brain in the vat which was really Evans
- 00:44:39I was reporting on Evans where they did
- 00:44:41the brain in the vat argument but they
- 00:44:43said look in the end actually the only
- 00:44:44way to actually get a real brain in the
- 00:44:45vat is actually to have a brain in a
- 00:44:46body and if it could be a robot body you
- 00:44:49know but you still need a brain in the
- 00:44:50body so I don't think llms will get
- 00:44:52there because they can't you know you
- 00:44:54really need to be embedded in a world at
- 00:44:56least that's the e four idea the E4 the
- 00:44:594E approach to cognition argues that
- 00:45:01cognition does not occur solely in the
- 00:45:02head but is also embodied embedded
- 00:45:05enacted and extended by way of extra
- 00:45:09cranial processes and structures the
- 00:45:12very much
- 00:45:13invogue 4E cognition has received
- 00:45:16relatively few critical evaluations this
- 00:45:18is a paper by reflecting on two uh
- 00:45:20recent collections this article reviews
- 00:45:22the 4E Paradigm with a view to uh
- 00:45:25assessing the strengths and weaknesses
- 00:45:27it's fascinating I mean yeah there the
- 00:45:28branches of what is cognition extends
- 00:45:32far and it could go real far right
- 00:45:34there's a great um story about an
- 00:45:36interaction between Jonas Sul who is
- 00:45:39very much a reductionist you know the
- 00:45:40great biologist and um Gregory baton who
- 00:45:43was a cyberneticist and uh Bateson
- 00:45:45always loved to poke people and he said
- 00:45:46to sulk he said you know where's your
- 00:45:48mind and you know Suk went up here and
- 00:45:51Bon said no no no out here and what he
- 00:45:54really meant was this extended idea it's
- 00:45:56not just Within your cranium to be to be
- 00:45:59to have experience you know experience
- 00:46:01in some sense is not a thing you have it
- 00:46:04is a thing you do right it's a you
- 00:46:06almost perform it in a way which is why
- 00:46:09both actually having a body but having
- 00:46:11the body itself be in a world with other
- 00:46:14bodies is from this perspective is
- 00:46:17really important and it's very
- 00:46:18attractive to me and you know seeing
- 00:46:19again if we're really going to do
- 00:46:20science with them we're going to have to
- 00:46:21like have these ideas crash up against
- 00:46:23data you know crash up against we can't
- 00:46:25just armchair it you know or or you know
- 00:46:27or quarter you know couch quarterbacking
- 00:46:30it um but I think there's a lot of
- 00:46:31possibility here it's a very radically
- 00:46:33different way of looking at uh at at
- 00:46:36what we mean by Nature
- agency
- experience
- science
- philosophy
- reductionism
- quantum mechanics
- life
- consciousness
- materialism
- blind spot