Lila Abu Lughod - Muslim Women and the Freedom to Choose

00:58:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl6UtWc2OY4

Résumé

TLDRIn her talk, Professor Lila Abu-Lughod explores the complexities surrounding the concept of choice for Muslim women, particularly in relation to dress and marriage. She critiques the simplistic dichotomy that equates veiling with oppression and Western attire with freedom. Through ethnographic research conducted in a village in Egypt, Abu-Lughod illustrates how women's choices are often constrained by cultural, familial, and economic factors. She questions the universality of the 'freedom to choose' as enshrined in frameworks like the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW), arguing that such ideals must be understood within specific social contexts. Abu-Lughod emphasizes the importance of recognizing the diverse experiences of women and the need for a more nuanced understanding of agency, challenging common stereotypes and narratives surrounding Muslim women's rights.

A retenir

  • 👩‍🏫 Professor Lila Abu-Lughod is a leading voice in gender and Islamic studies.
  • 📚 Her research focuses on the relationship between culture, power, and women's rights.
  • 🧕 The notion of choice in dress is complex and culturally specific.
  • 🌍 Abu-Lughod critiques Western perceptions of Muslim women's attire.
  • 💬 She emphasizes the importance of understanding women's choices within their social contexts.
  • 📊 The UN Convention on Women's Rights (CEDAW) is questioned for its universal applicability.
  • 🔍 Abu-Lughod highlights the need for nuanced narratives about Muslim women's lives.
  • 🤝 Agency is often constrained by cultural and economic factors.
  • 📖 Ethnographic examples from Egypt illustrate the realities of women's choices.
  • ❓ The talk challenges stereotypes about Muslim women and their rights.

Chronologie

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The introduction of Professor Lila Buddhahood, a prominent figure in anthropology and gender studies, highlights her extensive work on gender, Islam, and women's rights in the Middle East, emphasizing her influential publications and academic roles.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Professor Buddhahood begins her talk by discussing the concept of choice for Muslim women, referencing a Pew survey on women's dress in Muslim countries, which reveals a complex relationship between cultural norms and personal freedom.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    She critiques the framing of women's dress choices in Western discourse, questioning the assumptions that equate veiling with oppression and unveiling with freedom, and highlights the need to understand the nuances of choice in different cultural contexts.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    The professor discusses the ideological politics surrounding women's dress, particularly in relation to secularism and freedom, and how these debates often overlook the voices and experiences of Muslim women themselves.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Buddhahood emphasizes the importance of understanding the everyday lives of women in specific communities, particularly in relation to marriage and the pressures surrounding it, challenging the notion that choice is always a straightforward concept.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    She shares insights from her fieldwork in a village in Upper Egypt, where women express their concerns about economic conditions and personal choices, illustrating the complexities of their lives beyond the simplistic narratives of choice and freedom.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    The talk delves into the significance of marriage in the lives of women, highlighting how cultural expectations and familial pressures shape their decisions, complicating the idea of freely choosing a partner.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Buddhahood presents a case study of a woman named Yamina, whose life story illustrates the challenges of navigating personal desires, familial obligations, and societal expectations in the context of marriage and motherhood.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    The professor critiques the dominant narratives that portray Muslim women as victims in need of saving, arguing that these narratives often ignore the agency and complexities of their lives, particularly in relation to faith and personal choice.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    She concludes by urging a reevaluation of how we understand choice, freedom, and agency in the lives of Muslim women, advocating for a more nuanced approach that recognizes the interplay of cultural values and individual experiences.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:58:39

    The talk ends with a call to question the simplistic dichotomy of choice versus coercion, emphasizing the need for deeper understanding and respect for the diverse experiences of women across different cultures.

Afficher plus

Carte mentale

Vidéo Q&R

  • What is the main topic of Professor Lila Abu-Lughod's talk?

    The main topic is the complexities of choice for Muslim women, particularly regarding dress and marriage.

  • What does Abu-Lughod critique about Western perceptions of Muslim women's dress?

    She critiques the view that equates veiling with oppression and Western attire with freedom.

  • What examples does Abu-Lughod use to illustrate her points?

    She uses ethnographic examples from her research in a village in Egypt.

  • How does Abu-Lughod define 'freedom to choose'?

    She argues that 'freedom to choose' is not universally applicable and is shaped by social contexts.

  • What does Abu-Lughod say about the relationship between choice and power?

    She emphasizes that choices are often constrained by cultural, familial, and economic factors.

  • What is the significance of the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) in her talk?

    CEDAW is referenced as a framework that promotes women's rights to choose freely, but Abu-Lughod questions its applicability across different cultures.

  • What does Abu-Lughod suggest about the narratives surrounding Muslim women's rights?

    She suggests that these narratives often simplify complex realities and ignore the agency of women within their cultural contexts.

  • What is the impact of cultural perceptions on Muslim women's choices?

    Cultural perceptions can stigmatize Muslim women and rationalize interventions based on a misunderstanding of their lives.

  • How does Abu-Lughod's research challenge common stereotypes about Muslim women?

    Her research challenges the stereotype that Muslim women are universally oppressed and highlights their diverse experiences and agency.

  • What is the overall message of Abu-Lughod's talk?

    The overall message is the need for a nuanced understanding of choice and agency in the lives of Muslim women, recognizing the complexities of their social contexts.

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Sous-titres
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Défilement automatique:
  • 00:00:00
    let me tell you about our distinguished
  • 00:00:01
    speaker professor Lila Buddhahood is the
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    Joseph L button Weiser professor of
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    social science at Columbia University
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    where she teaches anthropology and
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    Gender Studies she's a former director
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    of the Institute for Research women and
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    gender the Center for the study of
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    social difference and the Middle East
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    Institute all at Columbia a leading
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    voice in the debates over about gender
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    Islam and global feminist politics
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    I lost my spot where is it
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    there's a good point - okay here we go
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    her books and articles have been
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    translated into 14 languages her
  • 00:00:39
    scholarship strongly ethnographic has
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    focused on the relationship between
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    cultural forms and power the politics of
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    knowledge and representation of the Arab
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    and Muslim worlds and the dynamics of
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    gender and the question of human and
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    women's rights in the Middle East her
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    award-winning books include veiled
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    sentiments honor and poetry and a
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    Bedouin Society writing women's world's
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    Bedouin stories remaking women feminism
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    and modernity in the Middle East and
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    dreams of nationhood the politics of
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    television in Egypt her most recent book
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    do Muslim women need saving was
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    published by Harvard University Press in
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    2013
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    the title of her talk is Muslim women
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    and the freedom to choose please join me
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    in welcoming professor liya
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    [Applause]
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    thank you so much that was so nice and I
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    have the freedom to choose to change my
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    title I noticed sorry
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    you know you never know quite what
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    you're gonna do until you do it and I
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    realized that wasn't quite right what I
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    sent along time ago so thank you so much
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    all for coming for co-sponsoring for the
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    lovely introduction and this isn't the
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    first time I've spoken at MSU and I
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    can't remember where I was the last time
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    but it was a wonderful experience but
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    I'm really glad to be back so I guess
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    I'll just start so I called this
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    actually Muslim women and the right to
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    choose freely and so I'll just start
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    with this that in January 2014 just as I
  • 00:02:24
    was leaving for Egypt to go visit the
  • 00:02:26
    village that I've been working in for
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    the last 20 years or so the Pew
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    foundation reported on an opinion survey
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    that have been conducted by University
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    of Michigan researcher in various Muslim
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    countries about what was the most
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    appropriate form of dress for women in
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    public and women's dress and the
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    majority of the you can still see right
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    yeah a majority of respondents had
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    selected from a set of these cartoon
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    images at the wonderful woman wearing a
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    headscarf for a job and the only
  • 00:02:58
    countries in which a majority had
  • 00:03:00
    selected women with her hair showing was
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    to return in Lebanon so what's the
  • 00:03:05
    significance of these choices is
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    supposed to be self-evident yes so the
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    next day a Lebanese satirist who I love
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    to follow tweeted a mock version of the
  • 00:03:17
    poll under the headline let me try to
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    get you that one yeah an Arab University
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    ran this fascinating poll about what is
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    most appropriate for American women to
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    wear in public and the survey purported
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    to compare the votes of people in
  • 00:03:33
    different US states for a range of
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    images and they had chose I had to
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    choose from a blonde cheerleader
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    cowgirl and these people in funny hats a
  • 00:03:46
    statue of liberty and 44 allegedly 44%
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    selected the woman in the revealing
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    dress whose hat was covered with dollar
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    signs so the point of the satire of
  • 00:04:00
    course was to expose the absurdity of
  • 00:04:02
    this obsession with women's dress and to
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    sort of uncover to use that some of what
  • 00:04:09
    lay behind it which are anxieties about
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    in the West about the hijab Islam
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    various forms of covering that are
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    linked to very deadly fantasies about
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    freedom and choice I think and a graph
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    reproduced in the same Pew report
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    exposes this assumption perfectly should
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    women be able to choose their own
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    clothing this is the real survey not the
  • 00:04:37
    Mach one it's absurd too but the graph
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    shows that in various Muslim majority
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    countries you know how they responded to
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    this question and a large proportion
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    agreed that women should choose be able
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    to choose what they wore and if you read
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    in the article it sort of puzzled the
  • 00:04:54
    findings puzzled the researchers because
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    the idea that women should choose what
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    they wear came not just from Tunisia
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    Lebanon Turkey where they don't cover
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    their hair and didn't think that was the
  • 00:05:04
    most appropriate but from Saudi Arabia
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    where they do whether on the other end
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    of the extreme of covering so the
  • 00:05:15
    majority of people had thought the most
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    appropriate form of dress was the face
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    veil so the framing of the study I think
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    reveals common views in Europe in the
  • 00:05:25
    United States the veiling is somehow
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    connected to questions of choice and
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    freedom the researcher sort of said
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    these forms of dress were for him
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    representative of certain values going
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    from the extreme of conservatism
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    fundamentalism religious phantom esse
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    and the most covered to secularism
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    modernity freedom aligned
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    with the last one so the debates about
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    banning in Europe about banning head
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    scarfs or face veils which I'm sure you
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    all know about and last summer the to do
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    about the so-called bikini on French
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    beaches alongside general worries about
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    Muslims and the Asia and North America
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    that we see intensifying all around us
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    now all turn on this question of choice
  • 00:06:15
    our Muslim women veiling out of choice
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    or is this form of dress of dark sign of
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    coercion by patriarchal men by
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    patriarchal religions by patriarchal
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    religion you know authoritarian States
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    should women be allowed to choose what
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    they wear or in two states that want to
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    protect certain values and individual
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    freedoms secular executor values or the
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    security of others have the right to
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    tell women what they can and cannot wear
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    what they should can be legislate what
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    they wear our liberal protections of
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    freedom of religion relevant to what
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    women wear or do threats of certain
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    civilizational values puns Trump Trump
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    some groups right to express themselves
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    or some women's rights to wear whatever
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    they want so the the value of freely
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    choosing which I used in my title my new
  • 00:07:13
    title is enshrined in the UN Convention
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    on the elimination of all forms of
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    discrimination against women or SEDOL as
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    it's known often known as the women's
  • 00:07:23
    Bill of Rights and different articles
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    guarantee women's equal rights to choose
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    freely their professions and their
  • 00:07:32
    partners and these ideals rest on a
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    confidence that we can know what a free
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    choice is the rest they rest on a
  • 00:07:39
    conviction that freedom to choose is the
  • 00:07:42
    ultimate good but I want to trouble
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    today with you the idea that we can know
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    what when a choice is freely made who
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    gets to determine whether an act or a
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    form of dress was freely chosen or not
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    and is there a pattern to whose choices
  • 00:08:00
    are more likely to be perceived as free
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    so political theorists and
  • 00:08:05
    you know like Nicholas rose and Wendy
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    brown have had a lot to say about choice
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    and the heavy ideological politics of
  • 00:08:13
    freedom and a wonderful analysis of
  • 00:08:17
    secular discourse as it emerged in May
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    you heated European debates about Bork
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    eyes or face coverings Wendy Brown for
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    example pointed out the strange double
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    standard at work in talk about women we
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    seem to have very tolerant views of
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    Western women's desires for debilitating
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    shoes expensive clothes cosmetics costly
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    plastic surgery while we have intolerant
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    views of Muslim women's clothing
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    the former understood as of course
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    arising from individual women's free
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    choice and she comments and this is a
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    long quote apologies I won't do this
  • 00:08:54
    again but you know we need Wendy Brown
  • 00:08:57
    political theorist here it's such a
  • 00:08:59
    brilliant article so quote to sustain
  • 00:09:02
    the conviction that Western women choose
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    their attire while Islamic women are
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    coerced into theirs requires ignoring
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    one how conditions of choice are
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    organized and how choice itself is a
  • 00:09:14
    norm is normatively produced - how
  • 00:09:18
    subjects can be dominated through choice
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    a concern that stretches from Plato to
  • 00:09:22
    Mill Marcus to Foucault makuu says
  • 00:09:25
    excuse me and three how subjects can
  • 00:09:28
    choose against their freedom or equality
  • 00:09:30
    an argument for which we can draw on
  • 00:09:32
    Hobbes Tufts AFC freud and not only the
  • 00:09:36
    Marquee decide and for above all the
  • 00:09:39
    idea that Western women choose while
  • 00:09:41
    Islamic women are coerced ignores the
  • 00:09:43
    extent to which all choice is
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    conditioned by as well as implicated
  • 00:09:47
    with power and the extent to which
  • 00:09:49
    choice itself is an impoverished account
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    of freedom especially political freedom
  • 00:09:55
    so I'm an anthropologist I'm not a
  • 00:09:57
    political theorist so that's the last
  • 00:09:59
    you'll hear a political theory and so I
  • 00:10:01
    want to look instead at the everyday
  • 00:10:04
    lives of everyday lives to evaluate
  • 00:10:08
    these the adequacy of our everyday
  • 00:10:10
    assumptions about choice and this
  • 00:10:13
    valuation of choice and I'm going to ask
  • 00:10:15
    you to think with me whether the loaded
  • 00:10:18
    terms of debate the in public talk about
  • 00:10:20
    Muslim women makes sense when we try to
  • 00:10:23
    understand particular women's lives in a
  • 00:10:25
    particular community in a particular
  • 00:10:28
    part of the Muslim world and even just
  • 00:10:32
    in relation to two very charged matters
  • 00:10:35
    not just veiling but which I've talked
  • 00:10:38
    about a little bit so far but also
  • 00:10:40
    marriage a second important area in
  • 00:10:43
    which the ideal of freely choosing in
  • 00:10:46
    CEDAW has been established as an
  • 00:10:48
    International Women's right or norm and
  • 00:10:51
    I'm sure you're all probably most of you
  • 00:10:56
    are aware of but kind of huge moral
  • 00:10:58
    panic that's going on these days and in
  • 00:11:01
    the industry of international
  • 00:11:03
    intervention and development sort of
  • 00:11:06
    over the last decade around the girl the
  • 00:11:08
    child child marriage forced marriage so
  • 00:11:14
    I want to sort of ask you and help me
  • 00:11:17
    think about this given that we all live
  • 00:11:19
    in embedded in social socially and
  • 00:11:24
    historically specific conditions and
  • 00:11:26
    circumstances what does it mean to
  • 00:11:29
    actually freely choose can freely
  • 00:11:35
    choosing be the basis for judgments of
  • 00:11:38
    relative value of different rights
  • 00:11:41
    different civilizations so let's go to
  • 00:11:45
    the village in Upper Egypt that is where
  • 00:11:48
    I've been working for the last few
  • 00:11:50
    decades last couple of decades and the
  • 00:11:52
    big news when I went back just after
  • 00:11:54
    seeing that Pew poll about appropriate
  • 00:11:57
    forms of women's dress the big news in
  • 00:12:00
    the village when I went back right after
  • 00:12:02
    that was among the women and the girls
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    was not that survey because they didn't
  • 00:12:07
    know about the survey and would have
  • 00:12:08
    laughed - they hadn't heard about it but
  • 00:12:11
    they wanted to talk about a lot of big
  • 00:12:12
    changes that were going on in Egypt and
  • 00:12:15
    in the village about the political
  • 00:12:17
    situation that how it had changed since
  • 00:12:19
    the hopeful early days of the revolution
  • 00:12:21
    in 2011 that it succeeded in removing
  • 00:12:25
    the longtime president not only
  • 00:12:27
    it was gonna be worth but I noticed that
  • 00:12:30
    women were all busy busy talking with
  • 00:12:32
    each other preparing themselves for the
  • 00:12:34
    upcoming referendum on the new
  • 00:12:36
    constitution there's a lot very high
  • 00:12:38
    turnout for voting even though the main
  • 00:12:41
    concerns they had asked people living in
  • 00:12:44
    this village as women as girls was about
  • 00:12:47
    the economic situation and the kind of
  • 00:12:52
    disaster the deaths disastrous decline
  • 00:12:54
    in tourism and this is an area that
  • 00:12:56
    depends heavily on tourism so there's
  • 00:12:58
    not there's no everybody scared to go so
  • 00:13:03
    that means nobody has jobs they were
  • 00:13:06
    really struggling so that's what they
  • 00:13:08
    were really concerned about the
  • 00:13:09
    referendum the economic situation so
  • 00:13:12
    forth but they also wanted to talk about
  • 00:13:14
    changes in the personal and everyday
  • 00:13:16
    worlds that we had shared over the years
  • 00:13:18
    and in particular they want to talk
  • 00:13:20
    about many weddings that have taken
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    place as my last visit and most of the
  • 00:13:26
    newly married couples were of this
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    younger generation those who'd be in the
  • 00:13:31
    playmates of my children when we first
  • 00:13:33
    went to the village so these are the
  • 00:13:35
    kids that so here's a picture of the
  • 00:13:38
    village yeah a beautiful part of it just
  • 00:13:42
    outside the village and here's my kids
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    when we first bought they actually when
  • 00:13:48
    they were 3 months old but this was one
  • 00:13:50
    of the many times we lived there so
  • 00:13:52
    these were their friends who are now my
  • 00:13:54
    kids are 24 they were now getting
  • 00:13:57
    married so it was their weddings so we
  • 00:13:59
    known them all their life so I was
  • 00:14:01
    treated to the tours tours of the couple
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    new couples homes that were you know and
  • 00:14:06
    they have these display cases I'm sure
  • 00:14:08
    some of you know about it you know
  • 00:14:09
    brimming with full sets of China
  • 00:14:12
    knickknacks glassware you know bonbon
  • 00:14:15
    trays there's a kind of regulation stuff
  • 00:14:18
    every bride has to have and they all
  • 00:14:21
    have it and so you don't have to look at
  • 00:14:23
    it'll never be touched for 50 years is
  • 00:14:26
    it going to just like that but you have
  • 00:14:28
    to have it and they hadn't their parents
  • 00:14:31
    had worked incredibly hard to save up
  • 00:14:33
    for all this stuff they borrowed money
  • 00:14:34
    so that they could buy the washing
  • 00:14:36
    machine the fridge
  • 00:14:39
    the thing would need for their lives
  • 00:14:40
    together as a couple and including the
  • 00:14:43
    kind of teddy bears that were sitting on
  • 00:14:44
    the hope the beds of the hope in the
  • 00:14:47
    children's room that they were hoping
  • 00:14:49
    you know to fill so they had these
  • 00:14:52
    pitches immaculate kitchens complete
  • 00:14:54
    with fridges and stoves but barely
  • 00:14:56
    touched because for many years a young
  • 00:15:00
    couple will eat with the parents anyway
  • 00:15:02
    in the main household so they had these
  • 00:15:05
    lovely kitchens and then we went with
  • 00:15:08
    parents so that's for the first few
  • 00:15:10
    years of married life and the bride
  • 00:15:13
    would produce this wedding album shyly
  • 00:15:16
    but proudly and these were all
  • 00:15:18
    professionally done in the studio on the
  • 00:15:22
    wedding day and considered that's my
  • 00:15:26
    daughter with her best friend there
  • 00:15:27
    later oh here's one of the young couples
  • 00:15:30
    so we know right you know I saw her born
  • 00:15:39
    anyway so but dressed up for their
  • 00:15:42
    engagement picture that was so here so
  • 00:15:44
    it doesn't come out that well but this
  • 00:15:45
    is the kind of albums they have so large
  • 00:15:50
    format photos husband and why you know
  • 00:15:52
    groom and bride
  • 00:15:54
    you know lean these sometimes leaning on
  • 00:15:56
    the shoulder this the couple you know
  • 00:15:58
    side by side in the background in their
  • 00:16:01
    rented outfits he has two rented suit
  • 00:16:04
    she has a rented wedding dress and this
  • 00:16:09
    these portraits make the most you can't
  • 00:16:11
    actually recognize any of the girls
  • 00:16:13
    because of the makeup but it's the
  • 00:16:15
    obligatory makeup and the sequence and
  • 00:16:18
    you can see all of this so and they're
  • 00:16:20
    all variations on a theme sometimes
  • 00:16:22
    starry nights sometimes the local scene
  • 00:16:24
    sometimes European scenes and some of
  • 00:16:26
    the couples that I knew hadn't known
  • 00:16:28
    each other really much before they
  • 00:16:31
    married and some had known each other
  • 00:16:33
    all their lives and you know so there
  • 00:16:35
    but it was a generic form so you don't
  • 00:16:38
    know if these people actually the first
  • 00:16:40
    time they touched or they were you know
  • 00:16:42
    loved each other but all this is erased
  • 00:16:45
    in the album's because this is the
  • 00:16:47
    standard form so let me come back to the
  • 00:16:49
    issue of dress which you see here
  • 00:16:51
    it was interesting that several of the
  • 00:16:52
    women remarked as we looked at the
  • 00:16:54
    photos and there are many different
  • 00:16:56
    kinds of photos of weddings the decision
  • 00:16:58
    of some women to cover their hair and I
  • 00:17:02
    could see that they here like here she
  • 00:17:05
    wears bridal veil but under it is a kind
  • 00:17:07
    of mmm
  • 00:17:09
    modified ketchup and some more so but
  • 00:17:13
    some didn't cover their hair and they
  • 00:17:15
    had spaghetti strapp wedding gowns but
  • 00:17:18
    she has the body as it's called the like
  • 00:17:20
    spandex lastly a thing that you wear
  • 00:17:22
    under the revealing clothes so there
  • 00:17:26
    were lots of variations home had
  • 00:17:27
    elaborate hair do some covered their
  • 00:17:29
    hair like this and I was kind of
  • 00:17:32
    surprised to see some of the ones with
  • 00:17:33
    their hair uncovered in the spaghetti
  • 00:17:34
    straps because this is normally people
  • 00:17:37
    do cover their hair and wear modest
  • 00:17:40
    clothing just ordinary stuff even though
  • 00:17:43
    it can be fashionable in blue jeans and
  • 00:17:45
    tunic tops and things like that but it's
  • 00:17:47
    still modest but as people always
  • 00:17:49
    explain to me when we looked at these
  • 00:17:50
    photos and especially when I would kind
  • 00:17:52
    of notice the ones in the spaghetti
  • 00:17:53
    strap a little bit here they would say
  • 00:17:55
    you know it's a bride chooses what she
  • 00:17:59
    wants to wear it's her day so they put
  • 00:18:02
    it on the bride you know you can wear
  • 00:18:03
    whatever you want on this day now this
  • 00:18:05
    emphasis on choice was striking to me
  • 00:18:07
    since I think about choice concerns
  • 00:18:09
    about freedom and choice lurk behind
  • 00:18:11
    that survey of public dress just as they
  • 00:18:14
    haunt every debate in Europe about that
  • 00:18:17
    piece of clothing that seems to be more
  • 00:18:19
    important to politicians and to
  • 00:18:21
    feminists than the desires and self
  • 00:18:23
    understandings of the women who wear it
  • 00:18:25
    and protection of Muslim women's rights
  • 00:18:29
    has been promoted in the name of choice
  • 00:18:31
    women who cover themselves as I said you
  • 00:18:34
    know often thought to be coerced into it
  • 00:18:37
    even though it's not mandatory except in
  • 00:18:41
    a few countries in public and it's also
  • 00:18:44
    more the case that many young women have
  • 00:18:47
    had to fight their families in order to
  • 00:18:50
    wear the hijab in order to wear cover
  • 00:18:53
    you know covering forms of dress in law
  • 00:18:54
    that most of the mothers didn't so you
  • 00:18:56
    know there's a it's a the choice is
  • 00:18:58
    going sort of the other way so Leila
  • 00:19:01
    Ahmed has called this a quiet revolution
  • 00:19:03
    to take on a job to do these new forms
  • 00:19:08
    of piety based on long controversy over
  • 00:19:13
    the meanings of the veil so you know I'm
  • 00:19:16
    asking myself why
  • 00:19:17
    how did forms of dress become signs of
  • 00:19:19
    freedom or constraint especially when we
  • 00:19:23
    know how hard it is to distinguish dress
  • 00:19:29
    that is freely chosen from that which is
  • 00:19:31
    worn out of habit out of social pressure
  • 00:19:34
    or the imperatives of the fashion
  • 00:19:36
    industry including now flourishing
  • 00:19:40
    Islamic fashion industry which is very
  • 00:19:43
    you know runways and amazing clothes so
  • 00:19:47
    you know is that choice - that's also
  • 00:19:50
    limited and coerced in certain ways and
  • 00:19:52
    I love this cover of The New Yorker it
  • 00:19:56
    seems like and the the heading the
  • 00:19:59
    caption is girls will be girls like you
  • 00:20:03
    can look at this for hours thinking like
  • 00:20:05
    what does it mean girls are you know
  • 00:20:07
    who's coerced who is choosing what is it
  • 00:20:10
    you know what does it mean I mean I
  • 00:20:11
    don't know if the country is taught the
  • 00:20:13
    way I do but I like it anyway so the
  • 00:20:16
    fear of Muslims that motivates this
  • 00:20:18
    strange reversal in which forms of
  • 00:20:20
    undress have been legislated in the name
  • 00:20:24
    of freeing women I think has been
  • 00:20:25
    exposed brilliantly in the writing of a
  • 00:20:27
    lot of people including John Scott and
  • 00:20:29
    Martha Nussbaum even who I don't always
  • 00:20:31
    agree with but I came around on this one
  • 00:20:34
    and these the dress policies dress
  • 00:20:36
    policies and the sort of underlying
  • 00:20:38
    assumptions about choice have also been
  • 00:20:41
    opposed by Muslim women and particularly
  • 00:20:44
    like the ones who orchestrated something
  • 00:20:49
    called Muslim a Pride Day I don't know
  • 00:20:51
    if any of you took part in it a few
  • 00:20:53
    years ago of spring of 2013 and this was
  • 00:20:59
    in response to the top of this jihad as
  • 00:21:05
    it's called by a feminist group called
  • 00:21:07
    femen who do these protests burns fell a
  • 00:21:10
    few flags in front of mosques topless
  • 00:21:12
    and they have things across their chest
  • 00:21:15
    let's say freedom for women
  • 00:21:17
    and so forth so the science of the
  • 00:21:23
    science helped by the young women who
  • 00:21:25
    posted their photos muslimah Pride Day
  • 00:21:29
    in response to this kind of thing say a
  • 00:21:33
    lot of things like her says nudity does
  • 00:21:37
    not liberate me and I do not need saving
  • 00:21:39
    and from all around the world women
  • 00:21:41
    posted pictures of themselves looking
  • 00:21:43
    different ways you know my religion is
  • 00:21:46
    my choice that kind of thing and freedom
  • 00:21:50
    of choice as I don't have a picture of
  • 00:21:52
    that so again you know how does choice
  • 00:21:54
    emerged as the test of a good life the
  • 00:21:57
    marker of women's status when it's
  • 00:21:59
    actually such a complicated concept and
  • 00:22:02
    it seems to me when we get to this
  • 00:22:03
    obsession with choice it's clear that
  • 00:22:06
    we've entered not just the realm of
  • 00:22:08
    ideology but a fantasy so this is one of
  • 00:22:11
    the themes of my book do Muslim when
  • 00:22:18
    women need saving that you kindly
  • 00:22:20
    mentioned and what had provoked my
  • 00:22:22
    curiosity had been the way that choice
  • 00:22:24
    was deployed as a key symbol in the new
  • 00:22:28
    culture wars that pitted the freedoms of
  • 00:22:30
    liberated the liberated West against the
  • 00:22:32
    oppression suffered by the Muslim woman
  • 00:22:35
    if we want to take miriam Cook's
  • 00:22:37
    wonderful phrase it's like one word the
  • 00:22:39
    Muslim woman right generic Muslim woman
  • 00:22:42
    as opposed to the free Western one and
  • 00:22:44
    it has justified everything from
  • 00:22:47
    invasions with Afghanistan which you
  • 00:22:50
    were talking about earlier military
  • 00:22:51
    invasions immigration immigrant policing
  • 00:22:54
    and border control and of course we're
  • 00:22:57
    living with that now in a very big way
  • 00:22:59
    so the focus on choice in the matter of
  • 00:23:02
    a matter of Muslim women's rights I
  • 00:23:05
    argued in this book was has a double
  • 00:23:07
    genealogy on the one hand it's kind of
  • 00:23:10
    reputable it comes out of cidade comes
  • 00:23:12
    out of human rights it comes out of
  • 00:23:14
    feminism with their utopian and I and
  • 00:23:19
    Universalist ideals but the second basis
  • 00:23:23
    for this that allows it I think to have
  • 00:23:25
    such purchase is more sorted and I
  • 00:23:28
    wrote about and I think we can track it
  • 00:23:31
    through the history of popular
  • 00:23:33
    representations that are today
  • 00:23:35
    represented by what Dora I'm at has
  • 00:23:37
    called his Lou a literary scholar called
  • 00:23:40
    pulp nonfiction and I wrote about this
  • 00:23:43
    the heroines of this genre are oppressed
  • 00:23:45
    Muslim women who've escaped abuse both
  • 00:23:48
    feminists human rights and sorted pulp
  • 00:23:52
    nonfiction I think work together to
  • 00:23:54
    establish distinction and to rank
  • 00:23:57
    cultures and societies in some kind of
  • 00:24:00
    civilizational scale whose coordinates
  • 00:24:03
    are marked by freedom versus bondage
  • 00:24:06
    consent versus force choice versus
  • 00:24:10
    constraint and so I think you probably
  • 00:24:13
    all know the story from the Universalist
  • 00:24:17
    feminist CEDAW ideals which are good and
  • 00:24:21
    that's where freely chosen lives comes
  • 00:24:23
    from and the West is in some theorists
  • 00:24:29
    views it's still patriarchal but way
  • 00:24:33
    ahead of other cultures where they're
  • 00:24:36
    way behind and I think the fiction that
  • 00:24:42
    any of us choose freely and I'm going to
  • 00:24:44
    come back to this again and again it's
  • 00:24:45
    maintained by conjuring up whether
  • 00:24:47
    explicitly as in these novels or
  • 00:24:50
    implicitly those in distant lands who
  • 00:24:53
    live in bondage with no rights no choice
  • 00:24:57
    no agency and the fact that in liberal
  • 00:24:59
    democracies which I guess we have still
  • 00:25:02
    the most contentious debates are about
  • 00:25:05
    how choice should be balanced with the
  • 00:25:07
    public good in schooling in health care
  • 00:25:10
    and welfare reproduction gun control
  • 00:25:14
    this gets lost in the storylines of
  • 00:25:18
    those others who have no choice and so I
  • 00:25:23
    looked in this book of an anthropologist
  • 00:25:25
    but I looked in the book too at a genre
  • 00:25:27
    that makes the storyline I think very
  • 00:25:29
    believable for a lot of people around us
  • 00:25:34
    and apparently these are popular in
  • 00:25:36
    Europe - so these are popular
  • 00:25:39
    mass-market memoirs that form the CD
  • 00:25:41
    bedrock for these lofty Universalist
  • 00:25:45
    aspirations so books like this without
  • 00:25:47
    mercy you've all seen them at airport
  • 00:25:50
    bookstores probably you've all read them
  • 00:25:51
    some of them
  • 00:25:52
    the copycat covers always show women
  • 00:25:55
    hidden by black veils sometimes white
  • 00:25:58
    some revealing only the eyes sometimes
  • 00:26:01
    only one eye depends on the part of the
  • 00:26:03
    world I think that like everyone of the
  • 00:26:05
    name one South Asian ones but they're
  • 00:26:08
    called sold one woman's true account of
  • 00:26:10
    modern slavery my forbidden face without
  • 00:26:13
    mercy
  • 00:26:13
    this one burned alive married by force
  • 00:26:17
    which I showed you earlier the picture
  • 00:26:19
    of and these are always personal stories
  • 00:26:21
    as told to someone and it's hard to know
  • 00:26:25
    whether to treat these as memoirs these
  • 00:26:27
    memoirs that's nonfiction or not they're
  • 00:26:30
    billed as nonfiction and some are
  • 00:26:33
    reliable people have pointed out because
  • 00:26:35
    they rely on repressed memories like
  • 00:26:37
    suddenly somebody remembers all this
  • 00:26:39
    terrible stuff that happened to her but
  • 00:26:41
    she forgotten it for 25 years or you
  • 00:26:43
    know some of these are very interesting
  • 00:26:46
    many of the protagonists are known only
  • 00:26:48
    by first names or you know their secret
  • 00:26:50
    the growing of those princesses
  • 00:26:56
    anyway the Saudi princesses some are
  • 00:26:59
    based on some like Norma Louise honor
  • 00:27:02
    lost have been exposed as complete fakes
  • 00:27:06
    frauds hoaxes and books are always
  • 00:27:10
    co-written with journalists or with
  • 00:27:12
    ghost writers and one of the one of the
  • 00:27:15
    ghost writers I read about it in an
  • 00:27:16
    English newspaper had written a hundred
  • 00:27:19
    of these yes it's a genre and their
  • 00:27:23
    names never appear right ghost writers
  • 00:27:25
    so anyway to the extent that they might
  • 00:27:27
    reflect real bad experiences which one
  • 00:27:29
    in incidence which is possible I think
  • 00:27:32
    there is disturbing as any stories that
  • 00:27:34
    we read about in the paper that we know
  • 00:27:36
    about among our friends stories of abuse
  • 00:27:39
    that we know happen everywhere
  • 00:27:42
    psychology you know psychology case
  • 00:27:44
    study is pathological behavior
  • 00:27:45
    everywhere so there may be some of that
  • 00:27:48
    but the books work very hard not let you
  • 00:27:51
    make that comparison so they very exotic
  • 00:27:54
    they set them
  • 00:27:55
    in basements and Pakistani homes in the
  • 00:27:58
    north of England they set them in
  • 00:27:59
    Morocco they set them in the hills of
  • 00:28:01
    Yemen so that it's this exotic locale
  • 00:28:03
    that is very different from anything
  • 00:28:05
    that we know and they never and because
  • 00:28:08
    their personal stories as told to they
  • 00:28:12
    never have to ask what the community
  • 00:28:13
    thought of the particular marriage or
  • 00:28:16
    the abuse that you're hearing about so
  • 00:28:18
    you don't know whether the community
  • 00:28:20
    itself condemns this just as much as we
  • 00:28:23
    all condemn any of these stories that we
  • 00:28:25
    hear about so but they never let you
  • 00:28:28
    know that because they never put it in a
  • 00:28:30
    context they only put it in the context
  • 00:28:32
    of book exotic culture but not actually
  • 00:28:34
    a community of people who might really
  • 00:28:36
    disapprove of this and I think it's even
  • 00:28:38
    we roll and think it's you know many
  • 00:28:41
    things that horrifying as horrifying as
  • 00:28:43
    we would think so and Letty bulb this
  • 00:28:45
    legal scholar has called this you know
  • 00:28:47
    blaming culture for bad behavior so it's
  • 00:28:49
    it's the culture that makes this happen
  • 00:28:51
    and what I argue in the book is that
  • 00:28:53
    these stories work at the effective
  • 00:28:58
    level emotional level to connect readers
  • 00:29:01
    to the ideals of freedom and choice that
  • 00:29:04
    are being so violated in these stories
  • 00:29:06
    of our victims our heroines and then by
  • 00:29:12
    associating them with these other
  • 00:29:13
    cultures and most times they are Muslim
  • 00:29:16
    cultures then the effect that goes you
  • 00:29:20
    love the heroine
  • 00:29:21
    you hate the culture and the religion
  • 00:29:23
    that is making her life so miserable so
  • 00:29:27
    and I think the messages of these tawdry
  • 00:29:31
    has I call them tawdry memoirs are
  • 00:29:33
    reinforced by much more respectable work
  • 00:29:36
    that we all hear about by feminist
  • 00:29:38
    figures celebrated in the Western and
  • 00:29:40
    Western social circles especially those
  • 00:29:43
    forged by Islamophobia that I think now
  • 00:29:46
    are moving very much into the white
  • 00:29:48
    house in fact so we have I hope she's
  • 00:29:52
    come out yet apparently not yet I am
  • 00:29:55
    here see Ali whose first book was called
  • 00:29:57
    the Caged virgin an emancipation
  • 00:30:00
    proclamation for women and Islam bondage
  • 00:30:05
    freedom consent
  • 00:30:07
    and then there's this my favorite person
  • 00:30:10
    this 70 year old American feminist
  • 00:30:14
    psychologist
  • 00:30:15
    Phyllis tesslar who's recently published
  • 00:30:17
    a memoir of her six months as she calls
  • 00:30:20
    it in captivity in Kabul back to Kabul
  • 00:30:23
    as the young bride of an elite very
  • 00:30:26
    elite Afghani fellow student from Bard
  • 00:30:28
    College that she met when she was 19 she
  • 00:30:30
    married a very exotic she was really
  • 00:30:32
    excited girl from Brooklyn and she goes
  • 00:30:34
    to Afghanistan and his dad I think was a
  • 00:30:36
    head of the major bank there so they
  • 00:30:38
    were in a gated community of chauffeurs
  • 00:30:40
    and embassy parties and not a lot but
  • 00:30:43
    she thought it was captivity and when
  • 00:30:46
    she escaped after six months and her
  • 00:30:49
    chapter two titles of this memoir that
  • 00:30:51
    she just came up with talk about kind of
  • 00:30:55
    Muslim bondage to American freedom the
  • 00:30:57
    chapter titles or go I didn't copy them
  • 00:31:00
    out the imprisoned bride then bore cos
  • 00:31:04
    then harem days then trapped then
  • 00:31:08
    finally escaped and she calls because
  • 00:31:12
    body bags so I could tell you a lot more
  • 00:31:17
    about her but I'll keep going so but
  • 00:31:20
    these are the respectable piece sort of
  • 00:31:21
    respectable people not the trashy novel
  • 00:31:25
    novels who are saying the same thing
  • 00:31:27
    basically so when the ideologically
  • 00:31:29
    loaded categories of choice and consent
  • 00:31:31
    are applied to non-western women's lives
  • 00:31:34
    in this way they stigmatize the groups
  • 00:31:37
    and they have to help rationalize
  • 00:31:38
    intervention and I think we have to
  • 00:31:40
    think harder about choice and this is
  • 00:31:43
    one of the ways we can sort of cut into
  • 00:31:45
    this problem and here I want to go back
  • 00:31:49
    to marriage I showed you wedding albums
  • 00:31:51
    so this is a report important event in
  • 00:31:54
    the lattice of many most and
  • 00:31:57
    particularly for those back to Egypt
  • 00:32:00
    those village brides who so eagerly
  • 00:32:01
    shared their wedding albums with me and
  • 00:32:03
    in the community enough for Egypt where
  • 00:32:06
    then I've been telling you about and
  • 00:32:07
    across the Middle East and the Muslim
  • 00:32:10
    world actually no Middle East Village
  • 00:32:13
    let's stick with that I'll come back to
  • 00:32:15
    the Muslim world you know family is very
  • 00:32:18
    important
  • 00:32:20
    mutuality relationality mutual concern
  • 00:32:24
    these are as highly valued as I would
  • 00:32:26
    say individualism gender is closely tied
  • 00:32:29
    to familial power and everybody
  • 00:32:30
    recognizes that but it's true for both
  • 00:32:32
    men and for women and liberal dreams
  • 00:32:35
    like the choice of marital partner and
  • 00:32:38
    equality in marriage or what women
  • 00:32:41
    should enjoy in marriage and family
  • 00:32:43
    family relations as promoted in CEDAW
  • 00:32:47
    it takes on a different valence and I
  • 00:32:50
    think when we look at their lives it
  • 00:32:52
    helps us understand a little bit more
  • 00:32:54
    about how the complexity of human lives
  • 00:32:56
    that are always formed in social worlds
  • 00:32:59
    everyone everywhere confound this ideal
  • 00:33:03
    of choosing freely so I'm gonna go to
  • 00:33:08
    that whoops okay my friend so I want to
  • 00:33:15
    give you two examples of what I mean so
  • 00:33:17
    in rural Egypt as elsewhere there's been
  • 00:33:20
    a very intriguing phenomenon that's
  • 00:33:22
    developed over the past 20 years or so
  • 00:33:25
    girls and young women have been
  • 00:33:27
    developing knowledge of their rights
  • 00:33:29
    under Islamic law and they have been
  • 00:33:31
    using this knowledge to challenge some
  • 00:33:34
    of the customary arrangements for
  • 00:33:36
    marriage and many other things by
  • 00:33:38
    pointing to the requirement of consent
  • 00:33:40
    which is built into it's like marriage
  • 00:33:44
    parallel efforts have been underway
  • 00:33:50
    across the Muslim world by feminist
  • 00:33:52
    reformers of various sorts from secular
  • 00:33:54
    to Islamic or Islamist to make choice
  • 00:33:57
    consent and contract the instruments for
  • 00:33:59
    guaranteeing women's rights in marriage
  • 00:34:02
    and Misawa is one of the big
  • 00:34:04
    organizations with kind of global
  • 00:34:05
    movement for reform from within Muslim
  • 00:34:08
    family law but again although the bullet
  • 00:34:10
    village girls and Muslim feminists both
  • 00:34:12
    invoke the importance of consent and all
  • 00:34:15
    the families that I know in the village
  • 00:34:19
    at least and elsewhere insist on the
  • 00:34:22
    importance of a young woman's consent to
  • 00:34:24
    marriage the dilemmas that young women
  • 00:34:27
    face and try and make their decisions
  • 00:34:29
    about whether they should marry someone
  • 00:34:32
    or not
  • 00:34:33
    I think it's topless everyone else's who
  • 00:34:36
    your partner is gonna be let's not put
  • 00:34:37
    it in marriage but you know it's not
  • 00:34:39
    that easy to figure out if this is the
  • 00:34:41
    right person if this is how you want to
  • 00:34:42
    have your life is this the right person
  • 00:34:44
    to marry and you know I think the things
  • 00:34:46
    that go into their decisions are just as
  • 00:34:48
    complicated as the things that go into
  • 00:34:50
    ours you know what are what do we think
  • 00:34:54
    about when we think about who we want to
  • 00:34:56
    be with a lot I mean we love them of
  • 00:34:58
    course but character compatibility looks
  • 00:35:02
    money you know class family background
  • 00:35:06
    religion ethnicity
  • 00:35:08
    you know there's so many things that go
  • 00:35:11
    in personality pheromones you know who
  • 00:35:14
    knows why do we choose who we choose but
  • 00:35:17
    you know it's complicated and you don't
  • 00:35:19
    actually know if it's gonna be a good
  • 00:35:20
    the right choice and for many people it
  • 00:35:22
    isn't as we know so what does it mean to
  • 00:35:25
    choose a partner freely choose a partner
  • 00:35:29
    I think this is a tough question and
  • 00:35:31
    it's a question that sort of cracks open
  • 00:35:33
    the ideological nature of the link
  • 00:35:35
    between the of that survey that I opened
  • 00:35:38
    with that you know sort of between
  • 00:35:43
    status rights and choice that they
  • 00:35:47
    presumed were there in these unfamiliar
  • 00:35:51
    forms of dress you know so some are
  • 00:35:53
    choosing some are being coerced
  • 00:35:55
    it's much more complicated than that so
  • 00:35:58
    but it also opens up the I said
  • 00:36:01
    something about fantasy and maybe we use
  • 00:36:04
    the word fantasmic element of the ideal
  • 00:36:06
    of choice and this is something that
  • 00:36:07
    Judy Butler I'm sure many of you knows
  • 00:36:10
    feminist philosopher clear philosopher
  • 00:36:12
    she wrote this amazing essay on sexual
  • 00:36:16
    consent you know what does that mean and
  • 00:36:19
    she goes beyond the usual legal
  • 00:36:21
    arguments about you know legal consent
  • 00:36:24
    to you know did you sign a paper did you
  • 00:36:27
    say yes did you mean yes you know that
  • 00:36:28
    kind of thing by noting how consent
  • 00:36:31
    might not be just a core liberal value
  • 00:36:34
    but actually part of a strong fantasy
  • 00:36:36
    that we have of autonomy and that would
  • 00:36:39
    be explain a little bit about why we're
  • 00:36:41
    so attached to this idea and she reminds
  • 00:36:44
    us that we shouldn't forget this
  • 00:36:46
    it's a power in determining choices but
  • 00:36:49
    she also asks us to reflect on how in
  • 00:36:52
    matters of personal desire or intimacy
  • 00:36:55
    consent might not have much real meaning
  • 00:36:59
    because we can never know she says what
  • 00:37:01
    we're consenting to when we say yes if
  • 00:37:04
    we knew how bad it was gonna be later we
  • 00:37:06
    wouldn't have said yes but we don't know
  • 00:37:08
    at the time we consent to this but we
  • 00:37:11
    didn't consent to all the things that
  • 00:37:13
    came out of being with that person
  • 00:37:15
    making that choice and so forth we can
  • 00:37:18
    never know what we're consenting to she
  • 00:37:20
    says when we say yes and what will a
  • 00:37:22
    choice now mean for us in the future we
  • 00:37:25
    actually never know no one can predict
  • 00:37:28
    what a choice will mean for over time
  • 00:37:31
    for individuals even if freely chosen so
  • 00:37:34
    that's an interesting angle on things
  • 00:37:36
    and what I like so much about her essay
  • 00:37:39
    I'm sure some of you have read it is
  • 00:37:41
    that she offers this kind of poignant
  • 00:37:43
    truth about the limits we all face as
  • 00:37:46
    human beings the most basic fact of our
  • 00:37:50
    existence is that we were born into and
  • 00:37:54
    we depend on families that we didn't
  • 00:37:56
    choose yeah I'm sure many of us wish we
  • 00:38:00
    could have chosen our families but we
  • 00:38:01
    did it right and we spent how many years
  • 00:38:03
    all our lives dependent on them this
  • 00:38:06
    universal she says joins us all together
  • 00:38:09
    and it mocks the concocted divide that
  • 00:38:13
    something like worker bands and other
  • 00:38:15
    kind of nations that Muslim women of
  • 00:38:18
    Muslim women create between those who
  • 00:38:20
    freely choose and those who don't those
  • 00:38:23
    who have rights those who don't those
  • 00:38:25
    who are controlled by their cultures and
  • 00:38:26
    religions and those who determine their
  • 00:38:28
    own lives and so you know to reduce the
  • 00:38:32
    lives of women to a question of freely
  • 00:38:34
    choosing it doesn't actually make that
  • 00:38:37
    much sense on a theoretical level it
  • 00:38:40
    ignores basic insight so people like
  • 00:38:42
    Foucault and all about all ways that we
  • 00:38:45
    are made as subjects and our subject
  • 00:38:47
    power the social processes you call
  • 00:38:50
    subject nation and it ignores critiques
  • 00:38:53
    like those of Saba Mahmood who works on
  • 00:38:55
    Egyptian women in
  • 00:38:56
    piety movement who says you know why
  • 00:39:00
    can't you recognize agency when people
  • 00:39:03
    are choosing conformity why is that less
  • 00:39:05
    agenting than choosing transgression
  • 00:39:08
    interesting but feminists always choose
  • 00:39:10
    transit transgression so and liberals
  • 00:39:14
    too so on but on an ethnographic level I
  • 00:39:17
    find the concept of freely choosing hard
  • 00:39:20
    to grasp because of what I've come to
  • 00:39:22
    know about the lives of good hard to
  • 00:39:28
    grasp because of what I have come to
  • 00:39:30
    know about the lives and the sources of
  • 00:39:32
    suffering of the women in this village
  • 00:39:35
    that I've been so privileged to you know
  • 00:39:37
    you're going to for twenty years so I
  • 00:39:39
    will use them you know just kind of open
  • 00:39:42
    this up a little bit so okay so let me
  • 00:39:46
    take you back to the village for the
  • 00:39:48
    second illustration so I talked about
  • 00:39:50
    marriage but the way choice doesn't do
  • 00:39:52
    justice to real lives and I want to show
  • 00:39:57
    you also how hard it is to shake off
  • 00:39:59
    prejudices about patriarchal constraints
  • 00:40:01
    against Muslim women even for people
  • 00:40:03
    like me how little but else but mainly
  • 00:40:07
    how little the ideal of freely choosing
  • 00:40:10
    captures about how people live their
  • 00:40:14
    lives so I was really happy when I heard
  • 00:40:17
    the surprising news when I went back
  • 00:40:19
    that my friend yam na color again had
  • 00:40:23
    married and she was in her early 40s she
  • 00:40:27
    was not one of the young ones who grew
  • 00:40:29
    up with my kids and it's late in this
  • 00:40:31
    society it's like in a lot of societies
  • 00:40:33
    but a marriage proposal that come out of
  • 00:40:36
    the blue and when I first met her in the
  • 00:40:39
    1980s late 1990s excuse me late 1990s
  • 00:40:46
    she was living with her mother who had
  • 00:40:48
    health problems and in and out of the
  • 00:40:51
    hospital later I found out more about
  • 00:40:54
    her mother and the problems kind of
  • 00:40:56
    troubled history that she had of what
  • 00:40:59
    Yamina now defines this mental illness
  • 00:41:01
    but at the time it was understood
  • 00:41:04
    as possession and by Saints and because
  • 00:41:09
    of a childhood trauma but anyway I'll
  • 00:41:13
    come back to that
  • 00:41:14
    yeah Mina's mother had been very
  • 00:41:16
    beautiful as this young woman but who
  • 00:41:18
    had this kind of trouble and so she'd
  • 00:41:21
    had many suitors a lot of guys wanted to
  • 00:41:23
    marry her and the guys Mother's all said
  • 00:41:27
    no you cannot marry this girl you know
  • 00:41:29
    she's trouble
  • 00:41:31
    so finally his mother her mother agreed
  • 00:41:36
    with her sister who had a son that he
  • 00:41:39
    should marry yeah I mean his mother to
  • 00:41:42
    kind of protect her and take care of her
  • 00:41:44
    so he didn't really have much choice
  • 00:41:46
    about his marriage
  • 00:41:47
    she was this troubled person she married
  • 00:41:50
    him and things were actually fine for a
  • 00:41:52
    while and then he took her to a it was
  • 00:41:55
    actually a mental hospital
  • 00:41:57
    in Aswan and treated the electric shock
  • 00:42:01
    you know
  • 00:42:02
    you know what treatments were like in
  • 00:42:04
    those days but and she was better and
  • 00:42:06
    then they had three kids and he have job
  • 00:42:09
    nice job and then he got moved to Cairo
  • 00:42:12
    with her so
  • 00:42:13
    but if then something went wrong so they
  • 00:42:17
    were yeah things seemed fine yeah they
  • 00:42:21
    went to Cairo his job took him to Cairo
  • 00:42:23
    so they were living there and then he
  • 00:42:25
    was sent to Iraq with his company and
  • 00:42:27
    then came back and as yeah Mina her
  • 00:42:30
    daughter told the story this is when
  • 00:42:33
    things fell apart her older brother got
  • 00:42:36
    in with a bad crowd while his dad was
  • 00:42:38
    away and at age nine yam not got her
  • 00:42:42
    first glimpse of her mother's special
  • 00:42:44
    state so as she tells the story she said
  • 00:42:49
    it was a Friday and the radio was on in
  • 00:42:50
    the house jam Hama didn't know he was
  • 00:42:53
    talking about love of the Prophet and
  • 00:42:55
    began to sing religious songs um dad
  • 00:42:57
    something happened
  • 00:42:59
    perhaps she remembered she started
  • 00:43:02
    reciting God's name you know it's
  • 00:43:04
    discuss this was the first time I'd seen
  • 00:43:06
    anything like this and I was afraid he
  • 00:43:09
    was just reciting God's name I was
  • 00:43:12
    terrified I went to run running to the
  • 00:43:14
    neighbor in the building
  • 00:43:15
    and the neighbor came with me but she
  • 00:43:18
    was somebody who didn't pray she wasn't
  • 00:43:20
    pious and so the first thing my mother
  • 00:43:22
    did was there you know you don't pray
  • 00:43:24
    and threw her against the wall and
  • 00:43:26
    shouted at her for not praying so yeah
  • 00:43:29
    then goes on I didn't know what was
  • 00:43:31
    going on I was afraid my father came
  • 00:43:33
    home from Friday prayers and told me
  • 00:43:35
    don't be afraid but you should pray
  • 00:43:36
    regularly then she won't hit you said I
  • 00:43:40
    was only nine years old
  • 00:43:41
    and I started praying and then this is
  • 00:43:44
    what I witnessed she says my mom started
  • 00:43:47
    running off to Saints visit Saints tombs
  • 00:43:49
    all over Cairo she would leave us alone
  • 00:43:51
    my brother my sister and me and head off
  • 00:43:53
    for these visits you know religious
  • 00:43:55
    visits to Saints tombs which is
  • 00:43:57
    something people do and she always came
  • 00:43:59
    back but then one day she didn't come
  • 00:44:00
    back she took my sister and she
  • 00:44:02
    disappeared and then you know father's
  • 00:44:04
    going off looking for her all over the
  • 00:44:06
    country looked everywhere and eventually
  • 00:44:09
    he went to see the Sufi Shia who is has
  • 00:44:12
    a big Center in the village where
  • 00:44:14
    they're from and he went to him and said
  • 00:44:17
    you know I don't know where my wife is
  • 00:44:19
    and the chef told him don't be afraid
  • 00:44:21
    for her God's people are with her they
  • 00:44:24
    will take care of her so eventually they
  • 00:44:27
    did find her but yeah manna stayed in
  • 00:44:29
    Cairo and she learned to sew she'd have
  • 00:44:32
    her sister anymore but she learned to
  • 00:44:33
    cook page nine and clean and care for
  • 00:44:36
    her father and her brother and her
  • 00:44:38
    father wanted her to stay in school but
  • 00:44:40
    yet so much housework and all this stuff
  • 00:44:42
    and some teachers were really mean to
  • 00:44:44
    her and yelled at her because she didn't
  • 00:44:45
    do her homework so she dropped out of
  • 00:44:47
    school
  • 00:44:49
    she gave up and eventually they found
  • 00:44:51
    her mother and she returned but she
  • 00:44:54
    couldn't handle living in Cairo and so
  • 00:44:56
    she wanted to go back to the village and
  • 00:44:58
    take the two girls with her and this was
  • 00:45:00
    the first the point at which she havena
  • 00:45:02
    made a choice she and her sister chose
  • 00:45:05
    just for themselves to stay with her
  • 00:45:07
    father so it's just kind of unusual
  • 00:45:10
    thing to do to in Cairo and it was very
  • 00:45:12
    tough for them living in Cairo two young
  • 00:45:14
    girls with the father who was off at
  • 00:45:15
    work all day was the kind of awkward
  • 00:45:19
    life for them no mother
  • 00:45:22
    there taking care of him and it turned
  • 00:45:25
    out his father their father was often
  • 00:45:26
    ille he was in and out of the hospital
  • 00:45:28
    he had asthma he had all kinds of
  • 00:45:30
    medical issues but then came what yam
  • 00:45:33
    ness had certainly not chosen or wanted
  • 00:45:37
    which is and she says you know I
  • 00:45:39
    remember it as if it was yesterday it
  • 00:45:42
    was a Thursday he was late coming home
  • 00:45:44
    from work then someone from his company
  • 00:45:46
    came to the door and he told my sister
  • 00:45:48
    your father's a little unwell so we just
  • 00:45:51
    went at the hospital and yeah I'm gonna
  • 00:45:53
    continue so we you know they rushed to
  • 00:45:55
    the hospital and we found him on an
  • 00:45:57
    oxygen machine with a drip but you know
  • 00:45:59
    what Bubba are you okay and he says no
  • 00:46:02
    it's just my asthma and we I said you
  • 00:46:04
    know should I get in touch with the
  • 00:46:06
    family you know and get mom and the
  • 00:46:08
    auntie to come and he said no no don't
  • 00:46:10
    bother I'll you know I'll be out you
  • 00:46:13
    know soon go home I'll be fine
  • 00:46:15
    and they stayed with them until the
  • 00:46:17
    evening and scary to come home on their
  • 00:46:19
    own to the apartment but anyway so I'm
  • 00:46:22
    on Friday the next day she brought her
  • 00:46:23
    sister they went and said you know
  • 00:46:27
    shouldn't we get in touch with family
  • 00:46:28
    members I think like two girls shouldn't
  • 00:46:32
    someone stay with us he said no no I'm
  • 00:46:34
    fine I'll be home in a couple days and
  • 00:46:36
    then you know fine and that was Friday
  • 00:46:38
    and Saturday he was dead so somebody
  • 00:46:43
    came and they didn't even know what to
  • 00:46:44
    tell her so anyway so she wailed in the
  • 00:46:48
    streets the neighbors all came the
  • 00:46:50
    cousins the uncles everybody came from
  • 00:46:52
    the village to get him get the body took
  • 00:46:56
    the corpse home took the girls home to
  • 00:46:59
    the village and where her mother was and
  • 00:47:01
    that was it but she says you know they
  • 00:47:05
    were kind to us but no one can take the
  • 00:47:07
    place of a father we drove straight from
  • 00:47:09
    the hospital all the way home and crying
  • 00:47:11
    all the way and it's long drive so after
  • 00:47:20
    that she carried even heavier
  • 00:47:21
    responsibilities when she lived with her
  • 00:47:23
    mother and brother who was himself had
  • 00:47:26
    some problems and she was totally
  • 00:47:28
    devoted to her little sister and made
  • 00:47:29
    sure she finished school went to my head
  • 00:47:33
    more advanced degree she was really just
  • 00:47:36
    devoted to making sure her sister at
  • 00:47:38
    least got this education and she took
  • 00:47:40
    care of her asthmatic and troubled
  • 00:47:41
    mother a lot of problems and then later
  • 00:47:43
    she had to take care of ah two strokes
  • 00:47:46
    you know I mean this was a tough tough
  • 00:47:48
    life for her out of the blue this
  • 00:47:51
    marriage proposal came right so she
  • 00:47:54
    agreed and her new husband was older
  • 00:47:59
    divorced and she was open to it because
  • 00:48:02
    she said you know she'd been led to
  • 00:48:04
    understand that he was a serious person
  • 00:48:06
    and he had a reputation as an upright
  • 00:48:08
    man so you know I wasn't like playing
  • 00:48:11
    with her and and also a religious healer
  • 00:48:13
    Oh sorts and he looked at us too and
  • 00:48:16
    sort of followed the same Sufi religious
  • 00:48:19
    family that her family followed so there
  • 00:48:23
    she is
  • 00:48:24
    so when I went to see her in our new
  • 00:48:26
    home just like the young Brides that
  • 00:48:29
    I've been visiting to congratulate she
  • 00:48:30
    showed me her display case below glass
  • 00:48:33
    in China baubles but it was much more
  • 00:48:36
    modest and she didn't have any family to
  • 00:48:38
    help her save up for it but she had it
  • 00:48:41
    and then she pulled out her at wedding
  • 00:48:43
    album to show me and I was this kind of
  • 00:48:45
    faux blue suede thing with these hearts
  • 00:48:47
    on it and and he was a page of it and it
  • 00:48:52
    had six magnificent color photos like
  • 00:48:54
    everybody else studio photos of her and
  • 00:48:57
    her new husband and the scenes were
  • 00:49:00
    generic I think they have a Luxor scene
  • 00:49:02
    behind here but and the only difference
  • 00:49:05
    is I mean if she's covering her hair a
  • 00:49:07
    little bit of hair showing very
  • 00:49:09
    interesting and her husband is not
  • 00:49:11
    wearing a rented suit but traditional
  • 00:49:13
    gonna be a dignified one so um I wasn't
  • 00:49:19
    surprised to see that she didn't have
  • 00:49:21
    her hair out and this was the difference
  • 00:49:25
    was really his clothes but there was
  • 00:49:26
    something different about her album
  • 00:49:28
    which was she opened it to the front and
  • 00:49:32
    she had inserted a black-and-white photo
  • 00:49:34
    that I'd seen before at home a studio
  • 00:49:37
    portrait
  • 00:49:38
    and it was of her father so she brought
  • 00:49:41
    it with her who'd she loved so much
  • 00:49:43
    who'd she lost so young and her
  • 00:49:45
    attachment with family he was still very
  • 00:49:47
    strong she was married but she was
  • 00:49:49
    bringing her father into this with her
  • 00:49:51
    the romances marriage is great but you
  • 00:49:54
    know you're a bigger person than that
  • 00:49:55
    you have bigger ties than that
  • 00:49:57
    so it wasn't being displaced by this new
  • 00:49:59
    marriage so after I admired the album
  • 00:50:01
    she pulled out some folders to show me
  • 00:50:05
    and these were medical results from
  • 00:50:07
    fertility tests and they were in English
  • 00:50:10
    because all medical exams and tests are
  • 00:50:14
    in English in Egypt so very helpful for
  • 00:50:16
    people so I studied them you know read
  • 00:50:19
    through them and I'm no doctor so I
  • 00:50:21
    didn't really know what I was
  • 00:50:22
    understanding you know but I understood
  • 00:50:23
    enough and I sort of studied them
  • 00:50:26
    quietly and sort of said you know
  • 00:50:28
    because they were terrible I mean it was
  • 00:50:30
    clear she was never gonna get pregnant
  • 00:50:31
    so but I didn't say much you know it's
  • 00:50:34
    inch'allah you know but I left them
  • 00:50:36
    visit pretty worried because I thought
  • 00:50:39
    you know when you marry you're supposed
  • 00:50:42
    to have two kids well I'll leave that
  • 00:50:48
    one so so I talked with friends about my
  • 00:50:51
    visit with Yamina and they were happy
  • 00:50:53
    for her
  • 00:50:54
    as was I you know a little bit nervous
  • 00:50:56
    and they all said you know she
  • 00:50:57
    sacrificed so much for other people it's
  • 00:51:00
    great now that she gets something for
  • 00:51:01
    herself but they all thought she was too
  • 00:51:04
    old to conceive and even in that you
  • 00:51:06
    know fancy New York IVF clinics you know
  • 00:51:10
    40 years in your 40s is pushing it they
  • 00:51:12
    won't really they don't like you it's
  • 00:51:14
    because their odds are really really bad
  • 00:51:15
    so I was secretly worried that her
  • 00:51:19
    marriage wouldn't last because she
  • 00:51:21
    wasn't gonna produce kids for this
  • 00:51:23
    marriage and when I said this to another
  • 00:51:28
    friend she said but he already has
  • 00:51:30
    children who's divorced he had kids it's
  • 00:51:33
    she who hasn't and she was sort of very
  • 00:51:36
    sympathetic about these medical tests
  • 00:51:38
    and she said it's for her sake that he's
  • 00:51:40
    paying all this money for her to get
  • 00:51:41
    these medical exams you know it's
  • 00:51:44
    expensive to get tests as you all know
  • 00:51:46
    and it's expensive there and it's for
  • 00:51:50
    her sake that he's taking her to all
  • 00:51:51
    these doctors to see so it was kind of
  • 00:51:56
    his kindness not what I and I realized
  • 00:51:59
    here I had this assumption that you know
  • 00:52:01
    you should get married you know wives
  • 00:52:04
    will be divorced if they don't produce
  • 00:52:05
    the kids there's a lot of pressure on
  • 00:52:06
    brides but similarly to husbands if he's
  • 00:52:11
    if did or can't conceive it's a woman's
  • 00:52:15
    right to divorce him because children
  • 00:52:16
    are really important but I knew lots of
  • 00:52:19
    childhood as couples who stayed together
  • 00:52:20
    even though they could have divorced
  • 00:52:22
    each other because you wanted children
  • 00:52:24
    but I realized I had this in the back of
  • 00:52:25
    my mind it's kind of a tree Oracle thing
  • 00:52:27
    but they only want to get married in
  • 00:52:29
    order to have kids and therefore the
  • 00:52:30
    wife doesn't produce then off she goes
  • 00:52:32
    or you take a second wife you know
  • 00:52:34
    that's one of the grounds on which you
  • 00:52:35
    can so it was for this weird thing so I
  • 00:52:38
    had to stop you know and say I hadn't
  • 00:52:41
    thought about what she wanted right what
  • 00:52:44
    she wanted was to have kids to have a
  • 00:52:45
    life that other women had kids are very
  • 00:52:49
    important and they're wonderful and so I
  • 00:52:53
    understand that but I hadn't thought
  • 00:52:55
    about what she wanted and she mumbled
  • 00:52:58
    something about IVF and you know I know
  • 00:53:02
    this is a really way out of her range
  • 00:53:05
    barely you know they're barely getting
  • 00:53:08
    by so she wasn't gonna have IVF she
  • 00:53:10
    wasn't gonna have choice in this matter
  • 00:53:13
    that was so important to her husband so
  • 00:53:17
    the odds were stacked against her she
  • 00:53:19
    wouldn't be able to freely choose to
  • 00:53:21
    have children freely choose how many
  • 00:53:24
    children to have and I think this lack
  • 00:53:27
    of choice in the most important and kind
  • 00:53:29
    of intimate sphere of her life it had
  • 00:53:32
    absolutely nothing to do with whether
  • 00:53:34
    she wore the hijab or not this is like
  • 00:53:36
    deep deep choice deep life in the way so
  • 00:53:41
    this brings us to the final point were
  • 00:53:44
    kind of maybe a twist if I have left
  • 00:53:48
    twist in the story in the stories that
  • 00:53:50
    I've been telling you about choice so
  • 00:53:52
    free Emma
  • 00:53:54
    faith was incredibly important to her at
  • 00:53:57
    the end of the story that she told about
  • 00:53:59
    her father and what happened
  • 00:54:00
    to her in Cairo and her father's death
  • 00:54:03
    she had said to me when one has faith
  • 00:54:05
    faith in God it gives one strength
  • 00:54:08
    without my faith in God I never could
  • 00:54:11
    never have handled my mother's illness
  • 00:54:12
    my father's death and the horrible
  • 00:54:15
    situation we found ourselves in I'm
  • 00:54:18
    gonna come back to that so we're gonna
  • 00:54:19
    still in the village she's not very far
  • 00:54:22
    from the village where her mom is had
  • 00:54:24
    she stayed in the village in little
  • 00:54:27
    hamlet where we always are where she'd
  • 00:54:30
    been since she was 17 she would probably
  • 00:54:35
    be among the women that I saw on my last
  • 00:54:38
    visit who were going to the mosque to
  • 00:54:41
    pray and this was the big news of 2015
  • 00:54:46
    when I went to visit the next time so
  • 00:54:49
    with the collapse of foreign tourism
  • 00:54:51
    absolute collapse no foreigners there
  • 00:54:53
    you know Italians Russians even Russians
  • 00:54:56
    used to come even the Russians like
  • 00:54:58
    nobody was coming so with a collapse
  • 00:55:00
    after the Revolution the only visitors
  • 00:55:02
    to the firaon ik temple this in the
  • 00:55:05
    village where she lives you know that
  • 00:55:08
    had bus loads and bus loads and busloads
  • 00:55:10
    of tourists you know they get there half
  • 00:55:11
    hour at this temple and it gets you know
  • 00:55:15
    but that's like the only ones who now
  • 00:55:18
    visit are some domestic tourists
  • 00:55:20
    Egyptians from the cities who come to
  • 00:55:21
    see this heritage from and some of the
  • 00:55:25
    women the Egyptian women who came to see
  • 00:55:29
    the sorry didn't see it there you're
  • 00:55:33
    wondering what I'm talking about it's
  • 00:55:34
    not pointing because both of them are on
  • 00:55:35
    the screen so a lot of the women who
  • 00:55:39
    came especially during Ramadan and
  • 00:55:42
    things like that
  • 00:55:42
    had complained that there was no place
  • 00:55:44
    to pray privately in the village when
  • 00:55:47
    they got off the bus and went to the
  • 00:55:48
    tour and most people pay at home so it's
  • 00:55:52
    never been an issue in the village and
  • 00:55:53
    the men do pray in the mosque babe teeny
  • 00:55:56
    little mosque they pray on Friday
  • 00:55:58
    prayers but most men pray at home too so
  • 00:56:00
    nobody you know wasn't a big issue and
  • 00:56:01
    it wasn't any issue at all for women but
  • 00:56:04
    these tourists you know they have
  • 00:56:06
    nowhere private to go to pray and they
  • 00:56:08
    wanted something so the village all
  • 00:56:10
    collected money and built a second floor
  • 00:56:12
    on their mom
  • 00:56:13
    for women so that these women could have
  • 00:56:16
    someplace private
  • 00:56:17
    to pray and then the local women all
  • 00:56:19
    started going and they liked it they
  • 00:56:21
    liked going to the Friday prayer and
  • 00:56:24
    hearing the sermon like you know their
  • 00:56:26
    husbands and their sons and their
  • 00:56:27
    brothers and so forth not all of them
  • 00:56:29
    went but they liked it dress up and go
  • 00:56:33
    and for sure yeah man that would have
  • 00:56:35
    been one of those people because she was
  • 00:56:36
    pious and it was right next door to her
  • 00:56:38
    house so I thought okay so is there any
  • 00:56:44
    reason that this choice like the choice
  • 00:56:47
    is very much like this choice is
  • 00:56:49
    asserted by the women carrying signs on
  • 00:56:51
    muslimah Pride Day that's it you know
  • 00:56:53
    it's my choice to just this way it's my
  • 00:56:55
    choice not to be nude it's my choice to
  • 00:56:57
    practice my religion is this of any less
  • 00:57:00
    value than the largely secular and
  • 00:57:03
    liberal choices that are enshrined in
  • 00:57:05
    SEDOL that I talked about to freely
  • 00:57:07
    choose partner freely choose profession
  • 00:57:09
    freely pre choose this or the same
  • 00:57:12
    choices that are glorified in this pulp
  • 00:57:14
    nonfiction
  • 00:57:15
    about the escape from bondage of girls
  • 00:57:20
    from their families from their
  • 00:57:22
    traditions from their religion and
  • 00:57:23
    that's what school or five in those
  • 00:57:25
    novels I told you about and all of these
  • 00:57:28
    choices are produced within specific
  • 00:57:32
    configurations of power cultures that
  • 00:57:37
    value certain things above other things
  • 00:57:39
    and to which women are subjected and
  • 00:57:41
    they born into or they choose these
  • 00:57:44
    cultures they're part of social worlds
  • 00:57:46
    that have certain values and through
  • 00:57:50
    which they become subjects of their own
  • 00:57:51
    lives and I think we forget this at our
  • 00:57:53
    peril that people choose within sets of
  • 00:57:57
    values within communities and we forget
  • 00:58:00
    this at our peril and at the peril of
  • 00:58:01
    the covered Muslim women who become
  • 00:58:04
    these kinds of objects of either pity
  • 00:58:07
    criticisms intervention and increasingly
  • 00:58:11
    I think fear we need to eat keep asking
  • 00:58:16
    hard questions about why some like to
  • 00:58:20
    deploy and others have to defend
  • 00:58:22
    themselves in terms of what Wendy Brown
  • 00:58:24
    called this impoverished
  • 00:58:27
    language of choice and it seems to me we
  • 00:58:30
    can do better than that
  • 00:58:33
    [Applause]
Tags
  • Muslim women
  • freedom of choice
  • veiling
  • gender studies
  • cultural context
  • ethnography
  • agency
  • CEDAW
  • social norms
  • feminism