Kidney Scientist Reveals What is Damaging Most People’s Kidneys

00:49:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xxikXWKHwY

Résumé

TLDRDr. Jacob Torres, a researcher at UCSB, shares insights on the broader aspects of metabolic health beyond the liver and mitochondria, emphasizing the kidneys' critical role. He explains that metabolism is the sum of cellular energy processes, with each organ system playing a part. While fatty liver and visceral fat are common concerns in poor metabolic health, Dr. Torres highlights kidney functions in metabolizing fats and regulating energy balance. The dialogue delves into how ketones can enhance kidney function, particularly in managing chronic conditions like polycystic kidney disease (PKD). This genetic disorder speeds kidney degeneration by forming cysts. Ketones offer potential benefits by supporting mitochondrial function and reducing inflammation. Additionally, dietary elements like oxalates may harm kidney health, yet strategies involving citrate and proper mineral intake could mitigate such damage. The discussion underscores the complexity of metabolism and organ interdependence.

A retenir

  • 🔋 Metabolism involves the energy processes of all organ systems, not just the liver and mitochondria.
  • 💡 Every organ, including the kidneys, is crucial for maintaining metabolic health and energy balance.
  • 🗣️ Cells communicate to maintain homeostasis, a concept central to understanding metabolism.
  • 🦾 Ketones play a pivotal role by potentially improving kidney function, especially in genetic disorders like PKD.
  • 🔍 PKD is characterized by uncontrolled cyst growth in kidneys, complicating chronic kidney disease (CKD).
  • 🏃 Regular kidney function requires high energy, relying significantly on fatty acids and occasionally ketones.
  • ⚠️ Oxalates, found in certain foods, can harm kidneys by forming hazardous crystals.
  • 🥗 Strategies like calcium/citrate intake can prevent oxalate-induced damage in the kidneys.
  • 🧠 Metabolic health requires a comprehensive understanding of how dietary choices affect various organ systems.
  • ⚙️ Innovative formulations like KetoCitra might support kidney health by using ketones and citrate to prevent disease progression.

Chronologie

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Dr. Jacob Torus, a researcher at UC Santa Barbara, discusses the complexity of metabolism, highlighting that it's more than just energy production; it involves various organs and interactions among them. Instead of just focusing on organs like the liver, which plays a major role due to its regulation of fats and glucose, he emphasizes the importance of considering all organs due to metabolism's comprehensive role in maintaining homeostasis.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Metabolism acts as a homeostatic regulator, balancing signals among different cells. The communication between systems isn't binary; it involves a sensitization to Baseline levels which triggers cellular responses. While glucose is often highlighted as a key player in metabolic responses, other molecules like fats also contribute significantly. Even fasting acts as an important regulatory lever by affecting the homeostatic balance.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Addressing less-discussed organs like the kidneys, Dr. Torus points out that they consume a lot of energy due to their role in sodium and potassium regulation, thereby involving significant fat metabolism. They also regulate blood fatty acid levels by absorbing and releasing fatty acids as needed, which seems particularly critical in fasting states. Discussion also touches on whether fat or keto adaptation affects kidney function.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Dr. Torus suggests the possibility of 'fatty kidneys,' akin to fatty liver, which remain under-researched. He notes that while fatty droplets in organs are often viewed negatively due to associations with metabolic issues, they play crucial roles in energy regulation. Furthermore, mitochondria in kidneys are pivotal as they manage considerable fatty oxidation, using alternative cellular pathways for energy, especially under stress.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    The kidneys' energy-demanding role using fatty acids raises questions about their function in low-carb states. Torus hypothesizes potential effects on fluid regulation and muscle cramps. Low potassium levels, common in keto diets, alongside sodium glucose transporters in the kidneys, may influence these physiological aspects. He suggests that glucose might play a vital role in regulating homeostasis in low-carb scenarios.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Exploring ketones' impact, it's noted that kidneys are significant in ketone production even without dietary ketosis, second only to the liver. These ketones, produced mainly in fasting states, support kidney energy needs. The mechanisms include converting fatty acids to beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB), which the kidneys use for energy and systemic functions like increasing the glomerular filtration rate, thus improving kidney functions inherently.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Discussion on therapeutic aspects of ketones highlights their anti-inflammatory roles, particularly through the inhibition of the nlrp3 inflammasome and the modulation of macrophage activity. Such properties are beneficial in chronic conditions like polycystic kidney disease (PKD), where they impact mitochondrial function and inflammatory pathways, potentially slowing disease progression or preventing cyst formation post-injury.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    The talk reflects on Dr. Torus' research leading to the development of KetoCitra, a product combining BHB and citrate, showing potential in managing PKD by leveraging ketones' dual role in providing energy and reducing inflammation while preventing micro-crystal formation in kidneys, thus indicating broader applications even for general kidney health.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:49:40

    Discussion also touches on oxalates from dietary sources, their role in forming kidney stones, and the management of such deposits with citrate supplements. The damage from oxalates and other microcrystals, via free radical generation and inflammation, underscores the potential health benefits of interventions like KetoCitra for both PKD patients and broader populations interested in metabolic and kidney health.

Afficher plus

Carte mentale

Mind Map

Questions fréquemment posées

  • What organs are essential for metabolic health?

    The liver and mitochondria are often focused on, but other organs like the kidneys also play significant roles.

  • How do kidneys contribute to metabolic health?

    Kidneys consume a lot of energy through fat metabolism and regulate blood fats, affecting overall metabolic health.

  • What role do ketones play in kidney health?

    Ketones provide an energy source for kidneys and may help slow the progression of chronic kidney diseases.

  • How do oxalates affect the kidneys?

    Oxalates can cause crystal formation in kidneys, potentially leading to injury and inflammation.

  • Can ketogenic diets harm kidneys?

    While ketogenic diets have raised concerns about kidneys, research suggests ketones might actually support kidney function.

  • How does metabolism relate to organ systems?

    Metabolism involves energy production and consumption processes occurring across all organ systems.

  • What are common molecules affecting metabolism?

    Glucose and fats are primary contributors, but every molecule in the body plays a role in metabolism.

  • How do ketogenic diets improve kidney function?

    They provide alternative energy sources and may reduce inflammation and cyst formation in conditions like PKD.

  • What is polycystic kidney disease (PKD)?

    A genetic disorder causing cyst formation in kidneys, leading to chronic kidney disease.

  • What dietary strategies might support kidney health?

    Consumption of calcium, citrate, and potassium can mitigate oxalate effects and support overall kidney function.

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  • 00:00:00
    Dr Jacob torus you were a researcher
  • 00:00:02
    over at University of California Santa
  • 00:00:04
    Barbara you do a lot in the metabolic
  • 00:00:05
    Health
  • 00:00:07
    space let's talk some of the organs that
  • 00:00:10
    we really look at generally speaking
  • 00:00:12
    when we're looking at metabolic Health
  • 00:00:14
    metabolic syndrome and whatnot I mean
  • 00:00:15
    people focus on the liver they focus on
  • 00:00:18
    the mitochondria in general but there's
  • 00:00:20
    some other aspects that people might not
  • 00:00:22
    be focusing on I mean can you give me
  • 00:00:23
    sort of a big overhead overarching view
  • 00:00:28
    of how some of these other organs might
  • 00:00:29
    be involved in metabolic issues that
  • 00:00:31
    people might not be thinking of yeah
  • 00:00:34
    it's kind of that's a funny question I
  • 00:00:35
    think CU you know everything is
  • 00:00:37
    metabolism so metabolism is just the you
  • 00:00:40
    know breakdown of energy energy and
  • 00:00:42
    making energy making macro molecules
  • 00:00:44
    like making proteins and carbohydrates
  • 00:00:46
    and whatnot and so it's just the sum of
  • 00:00:48
    of all the the reactions that are going
  • 00:00:50
    on in the cell so every tissue
  • 00:00:52
    participates in metabolism in some way
  • 00:00:55
    so metabolic health is important to
  • 00:00:57
    every single organ system and you know
  • 00:00:59
    we focus on like particular systems
  • 00:01:02
    themselves like you mentioned the liver
  • 00:01:03
    because it's kind of the one that
  • 00:01:05
    regulates the um you know fats in the
  • 00:01:07
    body so we're like really concerned
  • 00:01:08
    about it or glucose so you know it has
  • 00:01:10
    these kind of like General markers that
  • 00:01:12
    we are concerned with of energy but
  • 00:01:14
    realistically every cell requires you
  • 00:01:17
    know these molecules to make energy and
  • 00:01:19
    perform their own metabolism and they're
  • 00:01:20
    all talking to one another back and
  • 00:01:22
    forth so I think that it's you know very
  • 00:01:24
    simple to say is like all it's important
  • 00:01:26
    to all systems and so if you zoom in on
  • 00:01:28
    any one particular cellp type you're
  • 00:01:30
    going to find a lot of interplay between
  • 00:01:33
    the you know all these different systems
  • 00:01:34
    talking to one another and that's really
  • 00:01:36
    what metabolism is is that interplay
  • 00:01:38
    interesting yeah I think people think
  • 00:01:39
    metabolism they just think creating
  • 00:01:41
    energy and that's it you know they don't
  • 00:01:42
    think about the actual communication
  • 00:01:44
    between this so what do you mean by
  • 00:01:46
    communication between systems uh I mean
  • 00:01:48
    obviously people are pretty familiar
  • 00:01:50
    with fatty liver they're familiar with
  • 00:01:52
    visceral fat they're familiar with that
  • 00:01:54
    aspect of poor metabolic Health right
  • 00:01:56
    but how does that play into these
  • 00:01:58
    systems that are communicating with one
  • 00:02:00
    another uh yeah so the way I always
  • 00:02:02
    think about metabolism is it's it's a
  • 00:02:04
    homeostatic regulator or it's always
  • 00:02:06
    about homeostasis so finding that that
  • 00:02:09
    like you know that balance between um
  • 00:02:11
    signals right and so the way that cells
  • 00:02:14
    work is they're not just these onoff
  • 00:02:17
    systems where they like something comes
  • 00:02:18
    in it's not binary not digital you know
  • 00:02:20
    like we're kind of used to with
  • 00:02:21
    computers and whatnot uh they're analog
  • 00:02:24
    systems so a lot of inputs come in to
  • 00:02:26
    create a like a a baseline level and
  • 00:02:29
    it's it's a sensitization to that
  • 00:02:31
    Baseline that kind of is what the cells
  • 00:02:34
    are responding to so if you have a lot
  • 00:02:36
    of glucose come in that change in
  • 00:02:38
    glucose from Baseline is what the cell
  • 00:02:40
    will then respond to it reaches some
  • 00:02:42
    threshold and then that causes a signal
  • 00:02:44
    and with if you have high glucose for a
  • 00:02:46
    long time it has to move that that
  • 00:02:48
    Baseline up so the homeostatic
  • 00:02:50
    regulation is changed and so it's really
  • 00:02:53
    just you know this inputs that come in
  • 00:02:55
    are kind of detected against that
  • 00:02:57
    Baseline and then the signal will out
  • 00:02:59
    propagate depending on how far away from
  • 00:03:01
    that Baseline it is and I would imagine
  • 00:03:03
    that this signal can be disrupted in a
  • 00:03:06
    lot of different Fashions not solely by
  • 00:03:07
    glucose right I mean oh no it's every
  • 00:03:09
    molecule is is performing this function
  • 00:03:12
    yeah what uh I mean in your experience
  • 00:03:14
    what are the more common ones obviously
  • 00:03:15
    glucose is a big one because it's
  • 00:03:17
    something that's you know talked about a
  • 00:03:19
    lot and we see it a lot but I'm sure
  • 00:03:21
    fats have a play here I'm sure specific
  • 00:03:23
    types of saturated fats have a play I
  • 00:03:25
    mean what what are some of the big ones
  • 00:03:27
    the bigger levers that people could say
  • 00:03:29
    okay yeah that has an impact on my
  • 00:03:30
    metabolic Health yeah the the big levers
  • 00:03:33
    of course like you mentioned glucose and
  • 00:03:35
    fats are you know these are the energy
  • 00:03:36
    molecules of course they have very big
  • 00:03:38
    big they're big levers because they're
  • 00:03:40
    the inputs that are constantly coming in
  • 00:03:42
    um but you know like not eating is also
  • 00:03:45
    a lever right because it's the exact
  • 00:03:46
    it's the opposite of that effect and
  • 00:03:48
    that's what causes the change in the
  • 00:03:49
    homeostatic regulator as well it's
  • 00:03:51
    either going too far in one way or too
  • 00:03:53
    far in the other way and it's kind of
  • 00:03:54
    that those are the interplay between
  • 00:03:56
    them you know I don't want to get
  • 00:03:57
    specific but yes there's many many molec
  • 00:03:59
    UL that perform that function so the
  • 00:04:01
    fats and the carbohydrates proteins
  • 00:04:04
    those are all like the the macro
  • 00:04:06
    molecules that we're very familiar with
  • 00:04:07
    studying but realistically it's all of
  • 00:04:10
    the substances that those are made out
  • 00:04:11
    of are also playing that same role in
  • 00:04:14
    regulation gotcha yeah so we start
  • 00:04:16
    talking I mean you do a lot of research
  • 00:04:18
    in the kidney realm yes this is very
  • 00:04:21
    interesting to me I mean you don't hear
  • 00:04:23
    the kidneys talked about a lot in the
  • 00:04:25
    general I'm going to call it the
  • 00:04:26
    metabolic sphere online right we've got
  • 00:04:28
    people that talk about met Bic Health
  • 00:04:30
    myself included and I know you know five
  • 00:04:32
    six years ago I did some videos on you
  • 00:04:34
    know the relationship with the ketogenic
  • 00:04:37
    diet and and Kidney Health and that was
  • 00:04:38
    about as far down the iceberg as I got
  • 00:04:41
    but the more that I talk to people more
  • 00:04:43
    that people talk to people from your lab
  • 00:04:44
    I I start to understand okay there is a
  • 00:04:46
    huge play with the kidneys and just our
  • 00:04:49
    overall metabolic Health not just about
  • 00:04:51
    you know your ability to filter an
  • 00:04:53
    ability to pee I mean there's a lot more
  • 00:04:55
    going on can you give me just like an
  • 00:04:57
    overhead view of that and then we can
  • 00:04:58
    double click on some stuff yeah I think
  • 00:05:00
    it's funny it's uh you know what people
  • 00:05:02
    like to rank the organ systems as the
  • 00:05:04
    relative importance you know pretty all
  • 00:05:06
    pretty Rel important they have like a
  • 00:05:08
    you know each their own function um you
  • 00:05:10
    know liver like you mentioned is very
  • 00:05:12
    talked about with metabolism but the
  • 00:05:14
    kidney is actually a very important part
  • 00:05:16
    with overall metabolism it's and lot
  • 00:05:18
    people don't know this but it actually
  • 00:05:20
    consumes a lot of fat it's it's a very
  • 00:05:22
    energy um very energy intensive organ
  • 00:05:25
    because it does so much work all the
  • 00:05:27
    time and specifically because it has to
  • 00:05:29
    has theun function of the ATP a so the
  • 00:05:32
    ATP Channel that's involved in sodium
  • 00:05:34
    and potassium pumping it takes a lot of
  • 00:05:37
    energy because it's always on and it is
  • 00:05:39
    constantly um pulling ions out of a
  • 00:05:42
    gradient so it takes a lot of energy so
  • 00:05:44
    it's always running through through
  • 00:05:46
    energy so it has a lot of mitochondria
  • 00:05:48
    and it also is regulating the fat
  • 00:05:50
    metabolism as well so you know for
  • 00:05:53
    instance if you eat a very high-fat meal
  • 00:05:55
    you have a lot of fatty acids in the
  • 00:05:56
    blood the kidney actually will soak up a
  • 00:05:58
    lot of those fatty acids into lipid
  • 00:06:00
    droplets and then slowly release them
  • 00:06:02
    back into circulation to kind of buffer
  • 00:06:05
    the overall fat content of the blood so
  • 00:06:07
    it's really interesting that is what
  • 00:06:09
    does this is this accelerated in someone
  • 00:06:11
    that's in a like a fasted State I mean
  • 00:06:13
    as you have more you know liberation of
  • 00:06:15
    fat so is it kind of regulating some of
  • 00:06:17
    that yes it is wow that's wild so then
  • 00:06:20
    if someone will
  • 00:06:22
    say I want to go in a little bit of a
  • 00:06:24
    different direction with this because
  • 00:06:24
    it's interesting if someone would say
  • 00:06:26
    fat adapted versus not fat adapted
  • 00:06:28
    someone that is experienced with fasting
  • 00:06:31
    versus not experienced with fasting or
  • 00:06:33
    even the ketogenic diet or not
  • 00:06:34
    experienced with the ketogenic diet like
  • 00:06:35
    they don't have that level of Keto
  • 00:06:37
    adaptation or fat adaptation does that
  • 00:06:40
    change how the kidneys regulate can they
  • 00:06:43
    is there enough of a communication to
  • 00:06:45
    say hey these cells are pretty they have
  • 00:06:47
    an affinity for fats or an affinity for
  • 00:06:49
    ketones like is it going to regulate and
  • 00:06:52
    liberate more does it communicate that
  • 00:06:54
    way that's a good question I think that
  • 00:06:56
    the the way that the the that the fat
  • 00:06:58
    droplets are are happening in the kidney
  • 00:07:00
    is just due to the amount of fat in the
  • 00:07:02
    blood so if the serum concentration goes
  • 00:07:04
    up then more fats will just end up in
  • 00:07:06
    the in those um the kidney tissue so I
  • 00:07:09
    don't know if there's like a specific
  • 00:07:11
    regulator because that's not researched
  • 00:07:12
    like the the data that I know about fat
  • 00:07:15
    droplet accumulation and fatty acid
  • 00:07:17
    regulation is very old old literature uh
  • 00:07:20
    I don't know if anybody's actually
  • 00:07:21
    looked at it now because now fat
  • 00:07:22
    droplets are generally considered
  • 00:07:24
    negative like they're not considered to
  • 00:07:26
    be um something that's good it's a
  • 00:07:28
    pathology a lot of times cuz it means
  • 00:07:29
    fatty acids are very high in the blood
  • 00:07:31
    so they end up getting pulled into the
  • 00:07:32
    kidney or into the liver like with
  • 00:07:34
    steatosis that kind of stuff so they end
  • 00:07:36
    up being like negatively Associated but
  • 00:07:39
    I think that they have a a positive
  • 00:07:40
    function because the you know the the
  • 00:07:42
    kidney needs fats to to operate so it's
  • 00:07:45
    using those lipid droplets for energy or
  • 00:07:47
    it's buffering the total fat in the
  • 00:07:49
    blood so it has like this dual function
  • 00:07:51
    under just normal conditions so is there
  • 00:07:53
    such thing as a fatty kidney just like
  • 00:07:55
    there's a fatty liver there must be I
  • 00:07:57
    mean I assume so I assume under under
  • 00:07:59
    pathological conditions you would
  • 00:08:00
    probably see lipid droplets that are not
  • 00:08:03
    just for energy because over time as
  • 00:08:06
    metabolism gets um broken down like if
  • 00:08:08
    somebody has a a defect in mitochondria
  • 00:08:10
    they might accumulate these droplets and
  • 00:08:13
    in and if they're not able to push them
  • 00:08:14
    into mitochondri they actually go
  • 00:08:16
    through another process that's um called
  • 00:08:18
    Omega oxidation and into like a
  • 00:08:20
    peroxisome so another organel in the
  • 00:08:22
    cell that's can break down fats and that
  • 00:08:25
    those can actually cause a lot of toxic
  • 00:08:27
    byproducts and those are known to to
  • 00:08:28
    show up in k disease after today's video
  • 00:08:31
    I put a link down below for keto Citra
  • 00:08:34
    keto Citra is the world's first and only
  • 00:08:38
    nonprescription formula for the dietary
  • 00:08:41
    management of polycystic kidney disease
  • 00:08:44
    but also for some other potential
  • 00:08:45
    chronic kidney conditions now the
  • 00:08:47
    research comes out of the Willams Lab at
  • 00:08:49
    a University of California Santa Barbara
  • 00:08:51
    it's really interesting stuff
  • 00:08:52
    essentially what they found is that
  • 00:08:54
    there is a possibility that ketones can
  • 00:08:57
    impact the progression of of chronic
  • 00:09:00
    kidney disease and dietary intervention
  • 00:09:02
    like a ketogenic diet can impact chronic
  • 00:09:04
    kidney disease but what's interesting is
  • 00:09:06
    beta hydroxy beate the main Ketone body
  • 00:09:09
    and what is in keto Citra can provide
  • 00:09:12
    the kidneys with an alternative fuel
  • 00:09:14
    source this can take some of the stress
  • 00:09:16
    off the kidneys and thereby potentially
  • 00:09:19
    slow the progression of chronic kidney
  • 00:09:21
    disease now additionally keto Citra also
  • 00:09:23
    can bind to harmful dietary components
  • 00:09:26
    so things that you might eat that would
  • 00:09:28
    normally stress the kidneys it can B
  • 00:09:29
    them and help get rid of them before
  • 00:09:32
    they're actually absorbed making it so
  • 00:09:35
    that there's less potential stress on
  • 00:09:36
    the kidneys in the first place not to
  • 00:09:38
    mention keto citric can also help stop
  • 00:09:41
    the formation of what are called micr
  • 00:09:42
    crystals these micr crystals can
  • 00:09:44
    accumulate and ultimately lead to kidney
  • 00:09:46
    stones so there's a multi-prong approach
  • 00:09:48
    in which keto Citra is very fascinating
  • 00:09:51
    helps with potential polycystic kidney
  • 00:09:53
    disease it provides an additional fuel
  • 00:09:55
    source for the kidneys themselves it may
  • 00:09:58
    help the formation
  • 00:09:59
    of the actual micr crystals that build
  • 00:10:01
    up and turn into kidney stones and
  • 00:10:03
    lastly it can help bind to harmful
  • 00:10:05
    dietary components that can lead to
  • 00:10:07
    kidney stress so I put a link down below
  • 00:10:10
    and that is a 20% off discount link
  • 00:10:12
    using Code Delow 20 for keto Citra so
  • 00:10:17
    this is wild it's actually sincerely
  • 00:10:19
    fascinating so does the kidney in
  • 00:10:21
    essence from what you know does it
  • 00:10:23
    operate almost as like a repository for
  • 00:10:26
    those fats to drip them out or is it to
  • 00:10:28
    say hey we need to bring levels down so
  • 00:10:30
    is it or is it both sides of the think
  • 00:10:32
    it's both so it can actually help
  • 00:10:34
    regulate saying hey like if energy needs
  • 00:10:37
    aren't met we need to you know release
  • 00:10:38
    some or like I don't know if there's any
  • 00:10:40
    literature on athletes in this
  • 00:10:42
    particular case probably not but I mean
  • 00:10:44
    it makes me wondering like okay training
  • 00:10:46
    in a fasted State someone that's fat
  • 00:10:48
    adapted okay like if you're you know you
  • 00:10:50
    have a higher level of serum
  • 00:10:51
    triglycerides and you're going to go
  • 00:10:52
    ahead and like pull some into the
  • 00:10:53
    kidneys and it's going to know how to
  • 00:10:55
    release them based on intensity levels
  • 00:10:58
    someone that has a like higher you know
  • 00:11:00
    respiratory exchange rate or lower
  • 00:11:01
    respiratory exchange rate at a higher
  • 00:11:03
    intensity because they're better at
  • 00:11:04
    using fats I don't yeah yeah you see
  • 00:11:06
    you've already yeah this is why research
  • 00:11:08
    is fascinating right because you get
  • 00:11:10
    these questions come up like what is
  • 00:11:11
    this actually doing like in practice and
  • 00:11:13
    I haven't seen anything look like that
  • 00:11:15
    because you'd have to do like a biopsy
  • 00:11:18
    like you'd have to biopsy the kidney
  • 00:11:19
    during these times to see it so it' be
  • 00:11:21
    very hard to study without actually
  • 00:11:23
    killing somebody or looking pulling the
  • 00:11:26
    kidney out and looking at it so you
  • 00:11:27
    could look at like um you know in
  • 00:11:30
    animals it could be done potentially but
  • 00:11:32
    it would be a very difficult study yeah
  • 00:11:34
    yeah where does this you know start to
  • 00:11:36
    come into play with someone that is
  • 00:11:38
    maybe metabolically deranged or
  • 00:11:41
    metabolically unhealthy like what does a
  • 00:11:44
    healthy kidney do in this particular
  • 00:11:46
    case versus an unhealthy kidney in this
  • 00:11:49
    in this context yeah I think that just
  • 00:11:51
    the normal normal way that the kidneys
  • 00:11:53
    function is it's you know it's using a
  • 00:11:54
    lot of fatty acids it's doing a lot of
  • 00:11:57
    um you know a lot of sodium potass iium
  • 00:11:59
    pumping like that's it you know it
  • 00:12:01
    regulates all sorts of other solutes as
  • 00:12:03
    well but it's just using that for energy
  • 00:12:05
    cuz the mitochondria are such a big part
  • 00:12:08
    of the kidney it's just able to do a lot
  • 00:12:10
    of fatty acid oxidation so it's just
  • 00:12:11
    burning through these fats under
  • 00:12:14
    deranged conditions it means that these
  • 00:12:15
    would be accumulate because there's
  • 00:12:17
    mitochondrial damage and if that happens
  • 00:12:19
    then you end up having to break down
  • 00:12:21
    these fats in this alternative pathway
  • 00:12:23
    and then those are all um oxidized you
  • 00:12:26
    know compounds that come out of that and
  • 00:12:28
    then those cause inflammation or they
  • 00:12:30
    can they do a lot of other stuff too
  • 00:12:32
    there's a lot of really interesting
  • 00:12:33
    things that happen there depending on
  • 00:12:34
    the type of fat that's getting oxidized
  • 00:12:37
    in that pathway that is wild I mean
  • 00:12:39
    think about so if someone is in a in a
  • 00:12:41
    low carb State and this is going to
  • 00:12:43
    sound tangential but it's going to come
  • 00:12:44
    back okay someone's in a low carb State
  • 00:12:47
    insulin levels are
  • 00:12:49
    lower they're have a higher propensity
  • 00:12:51
    for like muscle cramps things like that
  • 00:12:54
    is there also a play with the kidneys
  • 00:12:57
    there because I can speak from my own
  • 00:12:59
    experience when I am very low carb I
  • 00:13:01
    have a much higher propensity for muscle
  • 00:13:04
    cramps and cramping in general so I
  • 00:13:05
    would imagine there's some fluid
  • 00:13:07
    regulation issue that's happening there
  • 00:13:09
    and it doesn't matter how much salt I
  • 00:13:11
    take in that doesn't just solve the
  • 00:13:13
    issue right like the cramping will still
  • 00:13:14
    happen because there's clearly you know
  • 00:13:17
    some regulatory aspect that maybe is out
  • 00:13:19
    of whack do things change in a low carb
  • 00:13:22
    state with the kidneys or is it is it an
  • 00:13:25
    energy you know there's so much more
  • 00:13:27
    energy coming from a fat perspective
  • 00:13:29
    effective can the kidneys say hey like
  • 00:13:32
    our energy demand is so high that they I
  • 00:13:34
    don't know if you get where I'm going
  • 00:13:35
    with this yeah I I think what you're
  • 00:13:36
    saying because like the you're talking
  • 00:13:38
    about like I know when if you do like a
  • 00:13:40
    ketogenic diet there's a tendency to get
  • 00:13:42
    these cramps because of low sodium L
  • 00:13:45
    potassium level like the disbalance
  • 00:13:47
    between those twos and so I you know
  • 00:13:49
    it's a good question I imagine there's
  • 00:13:50
    probably a naturetic effect so you you
  • 00:13:53
    know you're peeing out excess sodium
  • 00:13:55
    that's like why you know adding sodium
  • 00:13:57
    in is a big part of it I'm thinking
  • 00:13:59
    about why that occurs I don't know
  • 00:14:01
    exactly the mechanism of like why the
  • 00:14:03
    carbohydrate part is important there but
  • 00:14:05
    there is a sodium glucose transporter I
  • 00:14:09
    mean that's what those the sglt
  • 00:14:11
    Inhibitors are doing they're they're
  • 00:14:13
    regulating that transport so I wonder if
  • 00:14:15
    maybe there's a necessity for you know
  • 00:14:18
    some glucose that's not being it's not
  • 00:14:20
    doing the job it's supposed to do to
  • 00:14:22
    help regulate the sodium pottassium
  • 00:14:24
    balance that's actually interesting I
  • 00:14:25
    don't know the answer to that one
  • 00:14:27
    exactly yeah it's I mean I've thought
  • 00:14:28
    about it lot because it's I find out
  • 00:14:31
    though go back to the lab I'll figure it
  • 00:14:33
    out I'm sure that's known I'm sure yeah
  • 00:14:35
    it's I mean you think about like I have
  • 00:14:37
    a history of kidney disease in my family
  • 00:14:39
    so I uh my grandpa had one kidney his
  • 00:14:42
    father had one kidney you know removed
  • 00:14:44
    obviously and so I'm aware of that kind
  • 00:14:46
    of stuff like when I'm I already have
  • 00:14:49
    issues with fluid regulation to begin
  • 00:14:51
    with I think I have I don't want to say
  • 00:14:52
    have early stage kidney issues I don't
  • 00:14:54
    but I've always been aware of that like
  • 00:14:56
    my fluid regulation is a little bit off
  • 00:14:58
    I've always been prone to cramping and
  • 00:14:59
    in a lot of ways the ketogenic diet was
  • 00:15:03
    helping me with overall fluid balance I
  • 00:15:05
    was finding that I was like better
  • 00:15:08
    because when I would with the exception
  • 00:15:09
    of cramping under extreme conditions but
  • 00:15:10
    that was something that I was just had a
  • 00:15:12
    higher propensity at intense you high
  • 00:15:15
    intensities then I would cramp more but
  • 00:15:16
    generally speaking I wasn't urinating
  • 00:15:19
    quite as much uh like once things
  • 00:15:21
    stabilized and normally on a ketogenic
  • 00:15:23
    diet like you find people start to you
  • 00:15:24
    know there's less carbohydrates so
  • 00:15:26
    there's going to be less water retention
  • 00:15:28
    so people are usually peeing being a lot
  • 00:15:29
    more especially with insulin levels
  • 00:15:30
    being low so I've kind of found that
  • 00:15:33
    that low carb State helps me regulate a
  • 00:15:35
    little bit more but there's also some
  • 00:15:38
    interplay between and I know like some
  • 00:15:40
    of the stuff you've seen in in your lab
  • 00:15:42
    as well with kidney function low carb
  • 00:15:45
    States and also the effect of ketones
  • 00:15:48
    themselves on the kidneys can you kind
  • 00:15:50
    of give me an overview on that you want
  • 00:15:52
    to know about ketones in the kidneys
  • 00:15:53
    specifically yeah well okay CU you got a
  • 00:15:55
    lot of people first of all a lot of
  • 00:15:56
    people that think that being in ketosis
  • 00:15:58
    is bad for the kidneys oh yeah which I
  • 00:16:01
    found in my research over the last you
  • 00:16:02
    know decade definitely or at least does
  • 00:16:06
    not seem to be the case yeah but how do
  • 00:16:09
    ketones affect the kidneys both positive
  • 00:16:11
    and potentially negative yeah I think
  • 00:16:13
    that they I think you're you talking
  • 00:16:15
    about the keto acidosis issue I think
  • 00:16:17
    that that's always been the like kind of
  • 00:16:19
    the issue with when we talk about
  • 00:16:20
    ketones is is the association of Keto
  • 00:16:23
    acidosis which is the you know the
  • 00:16:24
    metabolic state of when you're
  • 00:16:26
    overproducing ketones even though
  • 00:16:28
    there's High high glucose and high fatty
  • 00:16:30
    acids in the blood that's like we see
  • 00:16:32
    with diabetes so that's usually when
  • 00:16:33
    ketones are bad because they're causing
  • 00:16:35
    a um acidification of the blood and all
  • 00:16:38
    sorts of other negative things but under
  • 00:16:40
    normal conditions like I mentioned the
  • 00:16:42
    the kidney is a very energy it's a very
  • 00:16:44
    energy demanding organ so it uses fatty
  • 00:16:47
    acids predominantly um at least parts of
  • 00:16:50
    it so you know the kidney is divided in
  • 00:16:52
    this like um you know what they call the
  • 00:16:54
    nefron and so you have like a an input
  • 00:16:56
    which is called the Glarus and things
  • 00:16:58
    get filtered through that and then you
  • 00:16:59
    have like a a part that goes down and
  • 00:17:01
    then back up and then back around to
  • 00:17:03
    make urine and each part of that that
  • 00:17:05
    tubule has different types of cells that
  • 00:17:07
    line it so some cells are more dependent
  • 00:17:10
    on fatty acids that are further up on
  • 00:17:12
    the at the beginning because they're
  • 00:17:13
    doing a lot of the pumping and then
  • 00:17:15
    later down they might be doing more
  • 00:17:16
    passive collection so they don't have
  • 00:17:18
    the same requirements and it turns out
  • 00:17:20
    that like the upper part of those cells
  • 00:17:22
    are actually making BHB so they're
  • 00:17:25
    making ketones and then the ones at the
  • 00:17:27
    bottom can use it
  • 00:17:29
    and there's actually um changes in
  • 00:17:31
    concentration along the nefron of BHP so
  • 00:17:35
    you know the weird thing about nephrons
  • 00:17:36
    is they're controlling like what solutes
  • 00:17:39
    are in them because they're that's how
  • 00:17:40
    you pull water out or pull um sodium and
  • 00:17:42
    other solutes out it's changing the
  • 00:17:44
    concentration as it goes down so you're
  • 00:17:46
    kind of like getting more concentrated
  • 00:17:48
    and then you come back up and then
  • 00:17:49
    there's the concentration is changing
  • 00:17:51
    and so it's this this is the that's why
  • 00:17:53
    it takes so much energy is because
  • 00:17:54
    you're trying to create a gradient and
  • 00:17:55
    it turns out that like these cells are
  • 00:17:57
    like making BHP it's going down and
  • 00:17:59
    coming around and there's actually a
  • 00:18:01
    mechanism to pull BHB back across the
  • 00:18:05
    the the nefron because there's like a
  • 00:18:07
    place it's a junction between the Glarus
  • 00:18:10
    at the top and then the late nefron and
  • 00:18:13
    that pulls it back in and it actually
  • 00:18:15
    can increase the flow of things going
  • 00:18:17
    through it because it's kind of
  • 00:18:19
    perpetual energy device it's like a
  • 00:18:21
    weird yeah it's using energy though it
  • 00:18:22
    uses sodium to do this so it needs a
  • 00:18:24
    needs energy put in to do it but then
  • 00:18:27
    that that kind of increases is um the
  • 00:18:29
    GFR or the glomular filtration rate
  • 00:18:31
    that's how fast things are going through
  • 00:18:33
    there it can kind of like increase that
  • 00:18:34
    flow so ketones actually have a role in
  • 00:18:37
    that function as well um so it's like
  • 00:18:40
    one of the just things it does and so it
  • 00:18:42
    looks like different parts of the nefron
  • 00:18:44
    might be responding differently to
  • 00:18:46
    ketones and that's just the um you know
  • 00:18:49
    a very surface level thing right because
  • 00:18:50
    ketones also have all these other
  • 00:18:52
    functions so they you know they're they
  • 00:18:54
    do more than energy I think that's
  • 00:18:55
    always the big thing that's hard you
  • 00:18:56
    know a lot people to understand is they
  • 00:18:58
    really focus on that energy part which
  • 00:18:59
    is a really important function but in
  • 00:19:01
    the kidney it's likely that these other
  • 00:19:03
    functions are more are probably more
  • 00:19:05
    relevant than just the energy because
  • 00:19:06
    they use fatty acids so much so if
  • 00:19:09
    someone is even not in a dietary
  • 00:19:11
    ketogenic State these nephrons are still
  • 00:19:14
    producing BHB correct wow so it's just
  • 00:19:17
    it's such a such an aerobic system that
  • 00:19:20
    it's just like yeah it's actually the
  • 00:19:22
    second um Ketone producing organ so the
  • 00:19:25
    liver is like the primary organ that's
  • 00:19:27
    like making the ketones during during
  • 00:19:29
    fasting then the the kidneys is the
  • 00:19:31
    second organ that makes ketones the most
  • 00:19:33
    but those ketones that are produced in
  • 00:19:35
    the kidneys are not liberated into the
  • 00:19:36
    bloodstream are they localized they
  • 00:19:38
    probably are and yeah they're probably
  • 00:19:39
    because they're getting pulled back in
  • 00:19:40
    through there's a transporter that
  • 00:19:42
    specifically is for um you know the
  • 00:19:44
    called monoc carox carboxilate so
  • 00:19:47
    anything that looks like a ketone that
  • 00:19:49
    has that same structure will get pulled
  • 00:19:51
    back in and those are making a way into
  • 00:19:53
    bloodstream I don't know what what
  • 00:19:54
    amount it's quite a bit though it's I
  • 00:19:56
    think there's this has been done many
  • 00:19:58
    years ago in dogs they figured this out
  • 00:20:00
    like how much of the kidney contributes
  • 00:20:03
    to to the Ketone production it's not
  • 00:20:05
    insignificant it's it's a very large
  • 00:20:07
    amount jeez that's wild so it just if
  • 00:20:09
    someone is in a nutritional ketogenic
  • 00:20:12
    state do they potentially I don't know
  • 00:20:14
    if there's any research on this become
  • 00:20:16
    even more efficient at producing those
  • 00:20:18
    in the kidney because we know that we've
  • 00:20:20
    seen that like the liver becomes more
  • 00:20:21
    efficient you know you just develop in
  • 00:20:23
    the beginning when someone is doing say
  • 00:20:25
    a ketogenic diet it's like they they
  • 00:20:27
    start producing a almost too much in the
  • 00:20:29
    way of ketones you have a bunch showing
  • 00:20:30
    up at least in the urine and some you
  • 00:20:32
    it's you have extra and then eventually
  • 00:20:34
    you kind of find this efficiency and
  • 00:20:36
    that's usually just because you're
  • 00:20:37
    producing it more efficiently so do you
  • 00:20:38
    notice that in the kidneys as well I
  • 00:20:40
    don't know because that hasn't been I
  • 00:20:42
    haven't seen a research looking at that
  • 00:20:44
    specifically I would assume so just
  • 00:20:46
    because of adaptation purposes like why
  • 00:20:48
    wouldn't it get better at it you know
  • 00:20:50
    probably the protein expression of those
  • 00:20:52
    particular enzymes would go up that's
  • 00:20:53
    just a really that's another one of
  • 00:20:55
    those homeostatic regulator things yeah
  • 00:20:57
    so I imagine they would Happ yeah I find
  • 00:20:59
    that super fascinating and you probably
  • 00:21:01
    don't know the answer to this but I'm
  • 00:21:03
    say because this is where my brain is
  • 00:21:04
    going I find it interesting because okay
  • 00:21:06
    it's say someone
  • 00:21:08
    becomes keto adapted or they develop
  • 00:21:10
    this efficiency and then they cycle off
  • 00:21:13
    of a ketogenic diet and they've
  • 00:21:16
    potentially retained some of that
  • 00:21:17
    efficiency where these nephrons are
  • 00:21:19
    still able to produce high amount of
  • 00:21:21
    keton ketones potentially increasing
  • 00:21:23
    kidney function even in the absence of
  • 00:21:26
    dietary ketosis I would think so I think
  • 00:21:29
    that that's like a pretty pretty well
  • 00:21:31
    established function like whenever you
  • 00:21:32
    gain adaptations you generally don't
  • 00:21:34
    lose all your adaptations just in you
  • 00:21:36
    know you know with exercise you know you
  • 00:21:39
    work out a lot you stop working out for
  • 00:21:40
    a few weeks it doesn't just go away or a
  • 00:21:42
    few months you know and you might lose a
  • 00:21:44
    lot of what you gain but you still have
  • 00:21:45
    like some adaptations like structural
  • 00:21:47
    things like bone density and stuff they
  • 00:21:49
    don't just go away that's a good point
  • 00:21:51
    yeah similar I think so for kidneys and
  • 00:21:53
    just for the and for the sake of people
  • 00:21:54
    that are watching and listening I mean
  • 00:21:56
    even even from the sake of like
  • 00:21:58
    mitochondri density it's like it doesn't
  • 00:21:59
    that doesn't just go away you know
  • 00:22:01
    really quick so if you do a lot of
  • 00:22:03
    aerobic exercise or you go through a
  • 00:22:05
    training block for a couple of years
  • 00:22:06
    where you've established really good
  • 00:22:08
    metabolic health and mitochondrial
  • 00:22:09
    Health it's not like that just
  • 00:22:10
    disappears overnight like you've
  • 00:22:12
    retained some of those adaptations and
  • 00:22:14
    it's going to take time the only reason
  • 00:22:15
    I say that is just so that this doesn't
  • 00:22:17
    sound completely Greek to people when
  • 00:22:18
    they're thinking like what adaptations
  • 00:22:20
    are we talking about in the kidneys yeah
  • 00:22:21
    I I just published um one of the figures
  • 00:22:24
    in my most recent publication was
  • 00:22:26
    showing that mitochondrial number goes
  • 00:22:29
    up so just we're able to count you know
  • 00:22:31
    look at the copy number of DNA and the
  • 00:22:33
    in the kidneys and we were able to show
  • 00:22:35
    that with BHB that the mitochondrial
  • 00:22:38
    number increases really yeah do you have
  • 00:22:41
    you noticed that same thing uh or is
  • 00:22:44
    there any research on exercise and
  • 00:22:46
    mitochondrial density in the kidneys not
  • 00:22:48
    that I can find but I imagine it has to
  • 00:22:50
    has to happen yeah I'd have to look for
  • 00:22:52
    it my mind is actually pretty blown
  • 00:22:55
    because it's like I just have never
  • 00:22:56
    thought of you know it obious L makes
  • 00:22:58
    sense when it's spelled out for you you
  • 00:23:01
    look at this you're like of course it
  • 00:23:02
    makes sense but I've never thought of
  • 00:23:03
    the kidneys as this metabolic arm as
  • 00:23:06
    such right like okay like you're
  • 00:23:07
    exercising it's good for your muscles
  • 00:23:09
    it's good for your heart it's good for
  • 00:23:10
    the mitochondria here but you don't
  • 00:23:12
    think about how it's improving like
  • 00:23:13
    these independent organ systems and and
  • 00:23:16
    whatnot so where in this place could
  • 00:23:20
    let's say someone's not doing a
  • 00:23:21
    ketogenic diet because we have a lot of
  • 00:23:23
    people that watch and listen that do not
  • 00:23:25
    follow that or have never done it are
  • 00:23:27
    there ways to get similar effects like
  • 00:23:31
    even the use of exogenous ketones or
  • 00:23:34
    forms of Ketone salts or monoesters or
  • 00:23:36
    anything like that does that have an
  • 00:23:38
    impact if someone will say Okay I want
  • 00:23:40
    to have this effect of ketones on my
  • 00:23:43
    kidneys uh but I don't necessarily want
  • 00:23:45
    to do a ketogenic diet like is there a
  • 00:23:47
    plate there yeah I think so and all I
  • 00:23:50
    have is information from you know animal
  • 00:23:52
    research that I've done so I know that
  • 00:23:55
    there is an effect similar to that so I
  • 00:23:57
    just presented a poster recently at the
  • 00:23:59
    aps conference down in went to Long
  • 00:24:01
    Beach a few weeks ago and that was what
  • 00:24:03
    one of the things I was presenting on
  • 00:24:05
    was the effects of timered feeding and
  • 00:24:08
    periodic fasting and then showing that
  • 00:24:11
    we were able to give BHB to the the
  • 00:24:13
    animals and recapitulate a lot of those
  • 00:24:16
    findings so we a lot of the same things
  • 00:24:18
    that happened from the fasting also
  • 00:24:20
    could happen from BHB as well look like
  • 00:24:22
    very similar effects and it means that
  • 00:24:25
    we don't know like all the effects of
  • 00:24:26
    fasting or all the effects that are the
  • 00:24:28
    same but many of the ones that we're
  • 00:24:30
    looking at in our we're studying a
  • 00:24:31
    disease model you know I study
  • 00:24:33
    polycystic kidney disease so
  • 00:24:35
    specifically I'm looking at um primary
  • 00:24:37
    outcomes of that disease model and a lot
  • 00:24:39
    of them are are recreated by BHB so I
  • 00:24:43
    think that there is a potential for you
  • 00:24:44
    know to have
  • 00:24:45
    bhpv supplement or somebody could use it
  • 00:24:48
    and have a lot of the same effects and I
  • 00:24:50
    know I mean even though polycystic
  • 00:24:52
    kidney disease is a very niched piece to
  • 00:24:55
    talk about I think it illustrates
  • 00:24:58
    potential that ketones may have because
  • 00:25:00
    it's just the tip of the iceberg right
  • 00:25:02
    it's just like where there has been some
  • 00:25:03
    niched research there can you explain
  • 00:25:06
    how polycystic kidney disease and the
  • 00:25:08
    relationship with ketones there can you
  • 00:25:09
    explain what polycystic kidney disease
  • 00:25:11
    is that's proba a good place to start
  • 00:25:12
    and how ketones have that effect on them
  • 00:25:14
    or have an effect on them yeah so I'll
  • 00:25:16
    call it PKD it's just easier to say so
  • 00:25:18
    PKD is a a a genetic form of chronic
  • 00:25:22
    kidney disease and so chronic kidney
  • 00:25:24
    disease is this Progressive disorder
  • 00:25:26
    everybody has chronic kidney disease
  • 00:25:27
    just how fast do you progress right some
  • 00:25:29
    people progress much faster so we're all
  • 00:25:31
    going to die eventually I think and you
  • 00:25:33
    know one of the reasons is because
  • 00:25:35
    kidney function just you know over time
  • 00:25:37
    gets worse and worse because it's just
  • 00:25:39
    life is hard you know you have to deal
  • 00:25:40
    with a lot of stuff as a kidney um so
  • 00:25:42
    chronic kidney disease is like that
  • 00:25:44
    acceleration so some event occurs like
  • 00:25:46
    an injury to the kidney and then um you
  • 00:25:49
    end up with like a lot of scarring so
  • 00:25:51
    fibrosis or Lo and that causes loss of
  • 00:25:53
    kidney function a little bit at a time
  • 00:25:55
    and over time that kind of builds up and
  • 00:25:57
    then you have fewer and those nephrons
  • 00:25:59
    to actually do the filtering and then it
  • 00:26:01
    it it becomes harder and harder to for
  • 00:26:03
    your kidneys to function and then you
  • 00:26:05
    know the the end of the that course is
  • 00:26:07
    um renal failure so you end up with
  • 00:26:10
    endstage renal disease and you need a
  • 00:26:11
    kidney transplant that's kind of the end
  • 00:26:13
    and polycystic kidy disease it's a
  • 00:26:15
    genetic form of that that that progress
  • 00:26:18
    so there's a a rap more rapid
  • 00:26:20
    progression because of the genetic
  • 00:26:22
    component so people will you know live
  • 00:26:25
    their life not knowing they have
  • 00:26:26
    polycystic kidney disease and then at
  • 00:26:28
    some point they end up you know finding
  • 00:26:30
    out that hey my kidney function is
  • 00:26:32
    declining but the reason it's happening
  • 00:26:34
    is because they're they're accumulating
  • 00:26:35
    these large cysts on their kidney and
  • 00:26:38
    they're starting to replace the normal
  • 00:26:40
    healthy tissue and then that's the loss
  • 00:26:42
    of the nefron so they get the chronic
  • 00:26:44
    kidney disease phenotype where they're
  • 00:26:46
    just slowly progressing as these cyst
  • 00:26:48
    start to accumulate on the kidney so
  • 00:26:51
    that's kind of like the the relationship
  • 00:26:53
    between the two it's just a genetic form
  • 00:26:55
    of chronic kidney disease is is the way
  • 00:26:56
    to think about it okay so it's just yeah
  • 00:26:59
    almost an accelerated in a way
  • 00:27:01
    accelerated aging even though it's not
  • 00:27:02
    actual aging so cyst formation that I
  • 00:27:05
    mean anybody can make cysts in their in
  • 00:27:07
    their kidneys that's part of the like
  • 00:27:09
    the research is understanding like what
  • 00:27:11
    are cysts why are they being formed um
  • 00:27:13
    because some individuals you know will
  • 00:27:15
    go to get a a scan of their kidneys and
  • 00:27:18
    they'll be a cyst or or whatnot and
  • 00:27:20
    they'll be like why why did this happen
  • 00:27:22
    it's and it seems to be an injur
  • 00:27:23
    response so it's some sort of repair
  • 00:27:26
    that you know maybe you need to wall off
  • 00:27:28
    an area that there's something that the
  • 00:27:29
    kidney can't deal with so it makes a
  • 00:27:31
    cyst around it and it can't it no longer
  • 00:27:33
    can like deal with it has no other
  • 00:27:35
    mechanism to deal with it so it makes
  • 00:27:36
    these cysts and so it's probably
  • 00:27:38
    something like that that's probably just
  • 00:27:39
    some abent injured response that's in
  • 00:27:41
    PKD do uh I mean in the case of not in
  • 00:27:44
    the case of PKD but if someone's just
  • 00:27:46
    developing a cyst is that usually that
  • 00:27:48
    cyst is there or do they eventually go
  • 00:27:50
    away or usually they stick around yeah I
  • 00:27:52
    think that's the issue with is they
  • 00:27:54
    don't usually do not go back they once
  • 00:27:55
    you have the cyst there's you kind of
  • 00:27:57
    just stays there it might get smaller or
  • 00:27:59
    larger but it's um it'll just kind of
  • 00:28:01
    stay in one spot but I mean for all
  • 00:28:03
    intents and purposes when you develop a
  • 00:28:04
    cyst I mean that is a portion sometimes
  • 00:28:07
    I'll be at a small percentage of kidney
  • 00:28:10
    function that you essentially lose yes
  • 00:28:11
    you lose some portion of it because
  • 00:28:13
    there the cyst comes from the the nefron
  • 00:28:15
    itself so the cells one of the cells
  • 00:28:17
    inside that nefron will then start to
  • 00:28:20
    propagate and then it makes it like a
  • 00:28:22
    clone of it makes that cyst interesting
  • 00:28:24
    and then it just kind of pinches itself
  • 00:28:26
    off and then now you've have that nefron
  • 00:28:27
    is dead ends and then you have a cyst
  • 00:28:30
    that kind of is off of the side to it
  • 00:28:32
    and then with polycystic kidney disease
  • 00:28:33
    that's just happening at just kind of a
  • 00:28:35
    rapid almost genetic mutated rate yes
  • 00:28:37
    it's happening um very quickly and and I
  • 00:28:40
    think with our research you know the
  • 00:28:41
    research that I've been doing in our lab
  • 00:28:43
    is that um it's kind of we think that
  • 00:28:46
    injury is the real culprit it's not the
  • 00:28:49
    genetic component alone it's you need
  • 00:28:51
    another thing to happen a triggering
  • 00:28:54
    event to to initiate the cyst gotcha so
  • 00:28:57
    where does BHB potentially play to this
  • 00:29:00
    is it just making it more efficient for
  • 00:29:03
    the kidney to operate with less function
  • 00:29:06
    so the way it plays in is there's many
  • 00:29:09
    many facets here so the the main thing
  • 00:29:11
    is that PKD is is not just a this
  • 00:29:14
    disease of of um of this one mutation
  • 00:29:17
    well there many mutations I'll just say
  • 00:29:19
    there lots of different things that can
  • 00:29:20
    cause it but um it also causes
  • 00:29:22
    mitochondrial dysfunction so you have a
  • 00:29:26
    change in the morphology of mitochondria
  • 00:29:28
    and then you have a loss total loss of
  • 00:29:30
    the number of mitochondria and you have
  • 00:29:31
    a shift over to glycolysis is like the
  • 00:29:34
    primary Energy System that this is
  • 00:29:37
    happening and the reason um you know
  • 00:29:39
    that's like kind of like an injury
  • 00:29:41
    response all cells kind of do this under
  • 00:29:44
    injury um systems is because of
  • 00:29:46
    inflammation so if you have an
  • 00:29:47
    inflammatory response cells kind of
  • 00:29:50
    switch over to this glucose mechanism
  • 00:29:53
    that's just kind of like a normal thing
  • 00:29:54
    that happens um but the cells never kind
  • 00:29:56
    of go out of that so they stay in that
  • 00:29:58
    state and they kind of propagate
  • 00:30:00
    inflammation and it keeps more and more
  • 00:30:02
    inflammation occurs over time and that's
  • 00:30:04
    what causes I think a lot of the injury
  • 00:30:06
    and then the cyst formation and BHB or
  • 00:30:09
    ketones in like I guess we'll talk I'll
  • 00:30:11
    talk about primary like BHB is that it
  • 00:30:14
    can have a lot of anti-inflammatory
  • 00:30:15
    effects and so they um it does this
  • 00:30:18
    through a variety of ways and one of
  • 00:30:20
    them is that it can you know affect
  • 00:30:22
    macrofagos so maccrage is the white
  • 00:30:24
    blood cells that are um you know
  • 00:30:26
    surveiling the kidney they kind of go
  • 00:30:27
    around they're a big part of the
  • 00:30:29
    inflammatory response they seem to be
  • 00:30:31
    really really critical for progression
  • 00:30:33
    of PKD and so BHB can actually affect
  • 00:30:37
    their switching so they have have
  • 00:30:40
    different modes that they can exist in
  • 00:30:42
    so they can exist in kind of like a uh
  • 00:30:44
    surveilling mode and then like a very
  • 00:30:46
    active repair or injury mode and BHB
  • 00:30:50
    affects that switch between the two so
  • 00:30:52
    it's it's acting on immune cells in that
  • 00:30:54
    way it acts on all immune cells in
  • 00:30:55
    different ways but specifically macro
  • 00:30:58
    stages so that can stop progression that
  • 00:31:00
    way and then you have a mitochondrial
  • 00:31:03
    effect so it could be helping with you
  • 00:31:05
    know kind of making it easier to make
  • 00:31:07
    energy through mitochondria it also
  • 00:31:09
    seems to have some effects on um
  • 00:31:11
    changing the cell over to fatty acid
  • 00:31:14
    metabolism by interacting with
  • 00:31:16
    particular proteins that are called
  • 00:31:18
    transcription factors and they kind of
  • 00:31:20
    turn on the genes that are involved in
  • 00:31:22
    fatty acid metabolism so those also seem
  • 00:31:24
    to go down in kidney disease chronic
  • 00:31:26
    kidney disease or PKD and it can
  • 00:31:29
    actually like turn that those like those
  • 00:31:31
    on genetically so then they start to be
  • 00:31:33
    expressed more so talking like par P yes
  • 00:31:37
    exactly so that's I mean it's just so
  • 00:31:40
    funny because people I've just seen it
  • 00:31:42
    been being in the keto world for you
  • 00:31:43
    know over a decade just you know oh
  • 00:31:46
    don't do that it's going to be bad for
  • 00:31:47
    your kidneys and I'm just kind of like
  • 00:31:48
    almost laughing on the inside because
  • 00:31:49
    it's like this is one of the better
  • 00:31:51
    things it's probably one of the better
  • 00:31:53
    things yeah so yeah from the
  • 00:31:54
    inflammatory standpoint I mean you've
  • 00:31:56
    done a lot of research just BHB in the
  • 00:31:58
    first
  • 00:32:00
    place is it mainly in lrp3 inflammosome
  • 00:32:03
    is that kind of the the effect there you
  • 00:32:05
    know about BHB also inhibits the nlrp3
  • 00:32:08
    inflammosome then yeah so is that is
  • 00:32:10
    that the switching that you're kind of
  • 00:32:11
    talking about there or a different
  • 00:32:12
    element so that's a different thing yes
  • 00:32:15
    but that's another big part of it that's
  • 00:32:17
    that would be in the cells of the kidney
  • 00:32:20
    so the epithelial cells that those that
  • 00:32:22
    would be very important there got it
  • 00:32:24
    because the nlrp and thre if people
  • 00:32:26
    aren't familiar that that's the
  • 00:32:28
    initiator for like the um is and beta c
  • 00:32:31
    yeah all that c base pathway that's
  • 00:32:33
    involved in kind of like
  • 00:32:34
    pro-inflammation secreting the cyto
  • 00:32:36
    kindes that then activate the
  • 00:32:38
    inflammatory response in cells nearby
  • 00:32:40
    and BHB directly inhibits the nlrp3 so
  • 00:32:43
    it prevents that Downstream Cascade and
  • 00:32:46
    so that alone will stop the like
  • 00:32:49
    progression of injury that's one thing
  • 00:32:51
    in the macras is they actually have a
  • 00:32:54
    receptor um it's called GPR 109a it's a
  • 00:32:57
    it's a a receptor for VHB this is a
  • 00:32:59
    receptor exists on many different cells
  • 00:33:01
    but in the macras specifically this
  • 00:33:02
    seems to be really important for the
  • 00:33:04
    type switching effect interesting yeah
  • 00:33:07
    is that uh the effect of what is it uh
  • 00:33:09
    it's a hard word to say beta hydroxy
  • 00:33:12
    bation oh yeah bation that's the easy
  • 00:33:15
    way to say yeah when you start getting
  • 00:33:17
    so that's a different that is a
  • 00:33:18
    different thing so I know that was
  • 00:33:20
    something that was where you're almost
  • 00:33:20
    starting to develop an affinity where it
  • 00:33:22
    can kind of use that so I guess my
  • 00:33:24
    question with this is where I'm
  • 00:33:26
    interested for years and years in the
  • 00:33:28
    world of Keto I was always interested in
  • 00:33:31
    the anti-inflammatory effect right and
  • 00:33:33
    even in my like early years of probably
  • 00:33:35
    being a little too Cavalier with how I
  • 00:33:36
    would talk about things you know I kind
  • 00:33:38
    of thought there was this like
  • 00:33:39
    overarching anti-inflammatory effect but
  • 00:33:42
    is it pretty localized when you kind of
  • 00:33:44
    see that happening as far as like the
  • 00:33:46
    inflammosome is concerned like is it
  • 00:33:48
    you're not just getting this General
  • 00:33:49
    Cascade of reduced systemic inflammation
  • 00:33:51
    in the body is it kind of happening in
  • 00:33:54
    essence where you need it no it's I
  • 00:33:56
    think that what you're describing is the
  • 00:33:58
    reason that it would reduce it
  • 00:34:00
    systemically cuz it's you're you're
  • 00:34:02
    targeting the pathway that causes the
  • 00:34:04
    release of cyto kindes and cyto kindes
  • 00:34:07
    are they go into the circulation and
  • 00:34:08
    they go in the tissue surrounding it and
  • 00:34:10
    they just kind of make their way
  • 00:34:12
    throughout the body so if you inhibit
  • 00:34:14
    the the cells that are secreting those
  • 00:34:16
    things then you can inhibit Global
  • 00:34:18
    inflammation as well because you're just
  • 00:34:20
    blocking the source so it it does both
  • 00:34:23
    functions it is well I mean cuz you hear
  • 00:34:25
    it when you talk to people right I mean
  • 00:34:27
    it's like sometimes it's in the low carb
  • 00:34:30
    space people come under attack a lot
  • 00:34:33
    when they talk about like hey I felt so
  • 00:34:35
    much better there's probably a million
  • 00:34:37
    reasons why people feel better when they
  • 00:34:38
    go on a ketogenic diet or when they just
  • 00:34:40
    reduce the processed foods out of their
  • 00:34:42
    diet in general but you know when people
  • 00:34:44
    have metabolic issues and they have
  • 00:34:47
    chronic inflammation and they see those
  • 00:34:49
    numbers change and they feel different I
  • 00:34:51
    mean it's hard to deny that right it's
  • 00:34:52
    so um but specifically in the kidney
  • 00:34:56
    level I mean how long does it typically
  • 00:34:59
    take for someone to start to
  • 00:35:01
    see pathological differences I mean like
  • 00:35:03
    if they're actually like introducing
  • 00:35:06
    ketogenic diet into the life or they're
  • 00:35:07
    using some form of you know Ketone salts
  • 00:35:10
    or whatnot is it a pretty quick thing
  • 00:35:12
    pretty quick change that's a good
  • 00:35:14
    question um I would think it's probably
  • 00:35:17
    pretty quick I think that there's
  • 00:35:19
    there's no reason to think that this
  • 00:35:21
    signaling would events wouldn't start
  • 00:35:22
    happening pretty rapidly I mean there's
  • 00:35:24
    going to be differences of course
  • 00:35:25
    between animals and humans I don't I
  • 00:35:27
    know that like they've done research on
  • 00:35:29
    like metabolic Health in people and
  • 00:35:31
    seeing that within a few weeks of people
  • 00:35:33
    that are like sedentary that don't have
  • 00:35:35
    you know have very poor metabolic Health
  • 00:35:37
    that they put them on like exercise
  • 00:35:39
    regimens and are like you know
  • 00:35:41
    increasing aerobic work they like see
  • 00:35:43
    changes already happening because the
  • 00:35:46
    the proteins they start to change they
  • 00:35:48
    start to be made really quickly they're
  • 00:35:50
    involved in like doing your metabolic um
  • 00:35:52
    Machinery so I could see pretty rapidly
  • 00:35:55
    that that would make it would make sense
  • 00:35:57
    that they would to start to improve so
  • 00:35:59
    yeah I don't have a direct I don't know
  • 00:36:00
    like an answer like this many days or
  • 00:36:02
    that but it's it's makes a lot of sense
  • 00:36:04
    that it would happen very rapidly and as
  • 00:36:06
    far as a there's a company called Santa
  • 00:36:08
    Barbara nutrients that's done some work
  • 00:36:11
    with this right I mean it's taken some
  • 00:36:12
    of the research and it's kind of applied
  • 00:36:14
    it in more of a practical application
  • 00:36:15
    and I think that is first of all can you
  • 00:36:17
    tell me a little bit about that what
  • 00:36:20
    variation because I know it's it's using
  • 00:36:21
    Ketone salts but I don't know if it's in
  • 00:36:23
    a specific mineralized form that is
  • 00:36:25
    specific for the kidneys yeah um first
  • 00:36:28
    you a little bit about it but also just
  • 00:36:30
    how it works yeah so yeah we started
  • 00:36:33
    Center Robert nutrients because of some
  • 00:36:35
    the research that I've been doing um you
  • 00:36:37
    know at UCSB we've found that com
  • 00:36:41
    combining a couple of other projects
  • 00:36:43
    together to you know into one Mega
  • 00:36:45
    project was was a good idea so I you
  • 00:36:47
    know 2019 I had the paper on the ketosis
  • 00:36:50
    and PKD that was the the one paper that
  • 00:36:53
    we showed that when we gave bet hydroxy
  • 00:36:56
    berate to the animals and that in that
  • 00:36:58
    study that had prevented the progression
  • 00:37:00
    of PKD and then we had another paper
  • 00:37:02
    where we looked at microcrystal
  • 00:37:04
    formation in kidneys accelerating PKD so
  • 00:37:08
    we knew that if you give citrate to
  • 00:37:11
    animals you can prevent the progression
  • 00:37:13
    of PKD that was a very old literature
  • 00:37:15
    that I was working off of there but we
  • 00:37:16
    just have a mechanism and so we took
  • 00:37:19
    those findings from those two papers and
  • 00:37:21
    put them together to combine beta
  • 00:37:23
    hydroxy berate and citrate together and
  • 00:37:26
    we're we're hypothesized that that if we
  • 00:37:27
    had them together that maybe we could
  • 00:37:29
    lower the amount that you would have to
  • 00:37:30
    give them in order to create like a
  • 00:37:32
    synergistic effect and that paper got
  • 00:37:35
    published last in December so I worked
  • 00:37:37
    on that for quite a while but that
  • 00:37:39
    during that time we had a patent we had
  • 00:37:41
    a patent with UCSB and then we have a
  • 00:37:44
    license to commercialize that that
  • 00:37:46
    patent so we made keto Citra and keto
  • 00:37:48
    Citra has been on the market for a few
  • 00:37:50
    years now and it's formulated to have
  • 00:37:53
    beta hydroxy berate and citrate together
  • 00:37:56
    and so the ratio is based off of the the
  • 00:37:58
    research that we did in the lab um and
  • 00:38:02
    the idea is that we have no sodium
  • 00:38:04
    because we sodium is involved in um you
  • 00:38:07
    know worsening a progression at least in
  • 00:38:09
    a lot of a lot of Studies have been done
  • 00:38:10
    with PKD and we use calcium magnesium
  • 00:38:14
    and potassium um potassium is is in
  • 00:38:17
    there because that's you know very
  • 00:38:19
    important for kidney function it's
  • 00:38:21
    actually potassium is like I think
  • 00:38:23
    woefully under under supplemented people
  • 00:38:26
    usually have very low potassium
  • 00:38:28
    when they actually need much more than
  • 00:38:29
    they than they think they do um
  • 00:38:32
    magnesium and the calcium are in there
  • 00:38:34
    because those can Bine to um compounds
  • 00:38:37
    in the in the gut that can cause kidney
  • 00:38:40
    stones like oxalate that's a big one or
  • 00:38:42
    phosphate so we think that those are
  • 00:38:44
    kind of like able to prevent the
  • 00:38:46
    formation of of these these crystals in
  • 00:38:48
    the kidney and uh together you know the
  • 00:38:51
    idea is that not only that they they
  • 00:38:54
    provide Alkali base so phb is a salt so
  • 00:38:57
    the salt will um increase the amount of
  • 00:39:00
    um Alkali in the in the urine so that'll
  • 00:39:03
    raise urine pH as well to prevent
  • 00:39:05
    Crystal formation so all those things
  • 00:39:07
    together are kind of and you know it has
  • 00:39:08
    BHB and citrate citrate also binds to
  • 00:39:11
    calcium in the in the urine so that
  • 00:39:13
    prent you know the crystal formation so
  • 00:39:15
    we have kind of like all these different
  • 00:39:16
    approaches and then the BHB has all the
  • 00:39:18
    mechanisms like I was talking about
  • 00:39:19
    before plus many more that are
  • 00:39:21
    undiscovered but it seems to be like
  • 00:39:23
    those together caused the a synergistic
  • 00:39:26
    effect in the animal models gotcha so
  • 00:39:28
    originally it was I mean it was really
  • 00:39:29
    sought out to be something for PKD in
  • 00:39:33
    the first place I mean really just but
  • 00:39:35
    is there an application uh potentially
  • 00:39:37
    independent of that just for General
  • 00:39:38
    Kidney Health I think so I I I might be
  • 00:39:41
    biased but it's I think as a inventor I
  • 00:39:44
    think it's I think it has the
  • 00:39:46
    application just because um potassium
  • 00:39:49
    has already been shown to be beneficial
  • 00:39:51
    to kidneys on its own I think there's
  • 00:39:53
    there's lots of research on just just
  • 00:39:55
    supplementing potassium chloride as a as
  • 00:39:57
    being beneficial for kidneys so that
  • 00:39:59
    data already is plentiful lot people
  • 00:40:02
    know that um the other part of it is The
  • 00:40:04
    Alkali so if you just removed all the
  • 00:40:06
    other ideas by just adding Alkali and
  • 00:40:09
    potassium alone already would be
  • 00:40:11
    significantly improving Kidney Health on
  • 00:40:13
    them by themselves when you add Alkali
  • 00:40:16
    to to kidneys you actually increase the
  • 00:40:19
    amount of nadh that can be produced
  • 00:40:21
    because you're changing the the barrier
  • 00:40:24
    you're you're lowering the barrier to
  • 00:40:25
    making more energy by increasing The
  • 00:40:27
    Alkali in the in the cells so there's a
  • 00:40:30
    lot of interesting research that's been
  • 00:40:32
    shown that where you just add like
  • 00:40:33
    bicarbonate to cells and they start to
  • 00:40:35
    make like tons of more um in ADH really
  • 00:40:38
    yeah just because of that alone so add
  • 00:40:41
    increasing The Alkali in the in the
  • 00:40:43
    urine is already good like that's
  • 00:40:44
    already a good thing and then you add on
  • 00:40:46
    top the um you know the prevention of
  • 00:40:48
    microcrystals which I think we're all
  • 00:40:50
    making these crystals like that's just
  • 00:40:52
    part of the kidney's job is to filter
  • 00:40:54
    and make the and um you know get rid of
  • 00:40:57
    these solutes in there in that process
  • 00:41:00
    you're going to make some of these
  • 00:41:01
    crystals so having citrate available
  • 00:41:03
    should just prevent that from being an
  • 00:41:05
    issue so you'll prevent kidney injury on
  • 00:41:07
    itself and then the BHB has all of these
  • 00:41:11
    functions that are just like I mean
  • 00:41:12
    they're very numerous so I think that
  • 00:41:14
    there's no reason not to believe that
  • 00:41:15
    that would have benefit in just normal
  • 00:41:17
    kidneys I mean I don't see why not yeah
  • 00:41:19
    you're getting I mean you're getting
  • 00:41:20
    almost the energetic benefit the
  • 00:41:22
    anti-inflammatory benefit the potential
  • 00:41:25
    less injure effect right just by Ian so
  • 00:41:28
    is the crystals themselves that actually
  • 00:41:29
    have an injur effect did they yeah so
  • 00:41:31
    the crystals have they have a few
  • 00:41:34
    different ways that they cause injury
  • 00:41:35
    and they they have um you there's
  • 00:41:37
    there's probably a receptor for oxalate
  • 00:41:40
    I haven't seen nobody knows exactly what
  • 00:41:42
    it is but it probably has a receptor
  • 00:41:43
    specifically that that causes the effect
  • 00:41:46
    that causes a lot of free radical damage
  • 00:41:48
    because it just blasts of free radicals
  • 00:41:50
    as soon as that thing gets gets uh makes
  • 00:41:52
    contact with cells and it activates the
  • 00:41:54
    inflammosome and then has all of these
  • 00:41:56
    effects of causing two wheel dilation
  • 00:41:59
    and kidney injury just on itself just
  • 00:42:01
    the the the crystal itself um so yeah I
  • 00:42:04
    think that that's a that's a big thing I
  • 00:42:06
    want to come back to to oxalates in just
  • 00:42:08
    a second because that's something that
  • 00:42:09
    people talk about a lot but I I went
  • 00:42:11
    ahead I put a link down below for keto
  • 00:42:13
    Citra as well so I mean and where can
  • 00:42:15
    people where can people find it in
  • 00:42:16
    addition to the link that's down below
  • 00:42:18
    if this is something if they were
  • 00:42:19
    looking for it yeah Santa Barbara
  • 00:42:20
    nutrients.com is our our website that's
  • 00:42:23
    where you can find it cool I'll link out
  • 00:42:24
    to all that stuff down below so you guys
  • 00:42:26
    can check it out um and again like it's
  • 00:42:29
    something that well for what it's worth
  • 00:42:32
    too there's also just the flat out
  • 00:42:34
    effect of exogenous ketones that you
  • 00:42:36
    would get out of this too so even if you
  • 00:42:37
    were looking at it saying like hey this
  • 00:42:39
    like Kidney Health isn't necessarily my
  • 00:42:41
    focus maybe it's a secondary Focus there
  • 00:42:43
    still the effect of having you know
  • 00:42:45
    actually a non-salt form of BHB which is
  • 00:42:47
    actually kind of nice because I know
  • 00:42:48
    some people want to take exogenous
  • 00:42:50
    ketones but they don't necessarily like
  • 00:42:51
    a th000 milligram of sodium or something
  • 00:42:52
    like that right so yeah um okay coming
  • 00:42:56
    back to OIC acid or oxalates for a
  • 00:42:58
    second M I know this might not be your
  • 00:43:01
    wheelhouse but there's a lot of people
  • 00:43:03
    obviously you've got the carnivore
  • 00:43:04
    community that is very anti- oxalates m
  • 00:43:08
    is the evidence strong or is it really
  • 00:43:11
    really in its infancy when it comes down
  • 00:43:12
    to consuming oxalates and how those can
  • 00:43:16
    impact your kidneys and in turn have an
  • 00:43:19
    effect on Ross and whatnot oh it's the
  • 00:43:22
    the data is out it's definitely not good
  • 00:43:24
    really yeah oxalate is is terrible for
  • 00:43:26
    your kidneys yeah so even coming from
  • 00:43:28
    like just raw vegetables kind of thing
  • 00:43:30
    like that yeah any s oxalates a you know
  • 00:43:34
    it's the kidneys have evolved and such I
  • 00:43:37
    mean we've all evolved to deal with
  • 00:43:38
    oxalate because oxalate is just this
  • 00:43:41
    it's can't get rid of it because it's
  • 00:43:43
    the it's when you take all the carbon
  • 00:43:45
    you take carbon you take want to get
  • 00:43:46
    energy out of it you strip all the
  • 00:43:48
    electrons out of it and when you're done
  • 00:43:50
    with it you end up with an oxalate
  • 00:43:51
    skeleton like and so this thing is just
  • 00:43:54
    around like it's just been around for as
  • 00:43:56
    long as there's been humans thing has
  • 00:43:57
    been getting created so all the systems
  • 00:43:59
    of the body have have had to deal with
  • 00:44:01
    this thing so we have all these
  • 00:44:02
    different mechanisms of dealing with
  • 00:44:04
    oxid so citrate one of it's probably
  • 00:44:06
    evolved to help with that function as
  • 00:44:08
    well the kidneys is just pumping out
  • 00:44:10
    citrate all the time it pumps out these
  • 00:44:12
    other um there's another compound called
  • 00:44:15
    osteopontin that's like it's just
  • 00:44:17
    putting it into the into the urine all
  • 00:44:18
    the time because that binds a lot of
  • 00:44:20
    these crystals and stuff so we have all
  • 00:44:22
    these mechanisms to kind of deal with
  • 00:44:23
    crystals all the time and normally I
  • 00:44:26
    think we probably existed with um some
  • 00:44:29
    bacteria that ate oxalate so we probably
  • 00:44:31
    didn't have the same effect in the past
  • 00:44:33
    but since you know antibiotic use and
  • 00:44:36
    all sorts of other things all soil
  • 00:44:38
    bacteria seem to be kind of depleted
  • 00:44:39
    from our microbiome so you know we kind
  • 00:44:42
    of are exposed to more oxalate than we
  • 00:44:44
    probably should be and then that's yeah
  • 00:44:46
    so that's so oxalates are for sure a
  • 00:44:48
    problem like they're definitely a thing
  • 00:44:50
    and preventing their their um you know
  • 00:44:53
    the crystal formation is almost
  • 00:44:54
    certainly going to be beneficial yeah so
  • 00:44:56
    even for just the effect of okay let's
  • 00:44:59
    say you're someone that eats a lot of
  • 00:45:00
    spinach you consume a lot of ox like
  • 00:45:02
    consuming citrate can actually help with
  • 00:45:04
    that correct so does a lot of the and
  • 00:45:07
    this maybe outside of your wheelhouse
  • 00:45:09
    I'm curious if we could almost film
  • 00:45:10
    another topic on this all together
  • 00:45:12
    but oxalates is the main driving
  • 00:45:15
    negative impact of them does it start in
  • 00:45:18
    the kidneys I mean is that where and
  • 00:45:20
    then the kind of the reactive oxygen
  • 00:45:21
    species that drives up from there so is
  • 00:45:23
    it really a kidney Centric issue where
  • 00:45:26
    most of the literatur
  • 00:45:27
    no oxalates are everywhere they go all
  • 00:45:29
    over the place they end up in the
  • 00:45:31
    connective tissue they end up in the
  • 00:45:33
    thyroid they end up all over the place
  • 00:45:35
    so they just they can just show up in
  • 00:45:37
    tissues and make crystals anywhere so
  • 00:45:40
    they can be in the kidney because that's
  • 00:45:41
    like kind of the place that you know
  • 00:45:43
    kidney stones or people know about
  • 00:45:44
    kidney stones so most of the research on
  • 00:45:47
    oxalate is like kind of focused on
  • 00:45:48
    kidneys but there's a lot I mean there
  • 00:45:51
    they're everywhere yeah so cook your
  • 00:45:53
    vegetables yeah cook your vegetables or
  • 00:45:55
    you have some calcium with the
  • 00:45:57
    with it if you're that's wild man I mean
  • 00:45:59
    that's because like it's so it's nice to
  • 00:46:01
    hear it from someone that is well versed
  • 00:46:03
    in this because I feel like the more
  • 00:46:05
    that people that are not scientifically
  • 00:46:08
    minded talk about it the more people
  • 00:46:10
    kind of want to tune it out and also
  • 00:46:13
    just when you have people that fear
  • 00:46:16
    Monger or vegetables it makes it
  • 00:46:18
    difficult to want to believe them in the
  • 00:46:19
    first place when you think but when you
  • 00:46:21
    actually okay well there's practical
  • 00:46:22
    ways that you can sort of reduce this
  • 00:46:24
    you know oxalate buildup um I mean
  • 00:46:27
    that's just wild that's so so calcium or
  • 00:46:30
    or citrate along with it can make a
  • 00:46:31
    difference does does cooking actually
  • 00:46:34
    break it down no you can't break down
  • 00:46:35
    oxalate so you can break down phytic
  • 00:46:37
    acid but not oxalate yeah oxalate is
  • 00:46:39
    just inert essentially yeah it can
  • 00:46:42
    survive in just like sediment and stuff
  • 00:46:44
    it's just these little crystals are they
  • 00:46:46
    just heat heat they don't break down
  • 00:46:48
    from heat or anything yeah they're
  • 00:46:49
    really hard to get rid of how do you I
  • 00:46:51
    mean is citrate like the only way you
  • 00:46:52
    get rid of them and how do you actually
  • 00:46:53
    excrete them can you ever get rid of
  • 00:46:55
    them well the citrate binds to the
  • 00:46:56
    calcium part so it just prevents them
  • 00:46:59
    kind of clustering into crystals yeah
  • 00:47:01
    you can't get rid of the oxalate
  • 00:47:03
    necessarily so like if you have a if you
  • 00:47:05
    have calcium with your your meal and you
  • 00:47:08
    have free oxalate then the free oxalate
  • 00:47:10
    will bind to the calcium and then you
  • 00:47:12
    can just kind of poop it out so it just
  • 00:47:14
    never kind of makes its way into the
  • 00:47:15
    body that's the that's one strategy but
  • 00:47:17
    if they're free oxalate then it will
  • 00:47:19
    just diffuse and make its way into the
  • 00:47:21
    blood and then now your kidneys have to
  • 00:47:23
    deal with it so like if you get a
  • 00:47:25
    spinach has a lot of free oxalate yeah
  • 00:47:28
    it's a lot do you happen to know again
  • 00:47:30
    this may not be your wheelhouse but
  • 00:47:31
    while we're talking about this I mean
  • 00:47:33
    what uh so there's a difference between
  • 00:47:35
    having high oxalate content and free
  • 00:47:37
    oxalate content is that yes there's
  • 00:47:39
    because there's the so the soluble and
  • 00:47:40
    the insoluble oxalate are different okay
  • 00:47:43
    so the plants you know they they they
  • 00:47:45
    use oxalate crystals for defense
  • 00:47:47
    purposes some some plants do some of
  • 00:47:49
    them use it for like just storing
  • 00:47:50
    calcium so like they have no bones so
  • 00:47:52
    they got to have a way to store calcium
  • 00:47:54
    so they'll they'll frequently have these
  • 00:47:56
    like s like phytic acid phytic acid
  • 00:47:58
    binds magnesium and so that's why people
  • 00:48:00
    are worried about like you're going to
  • 00:48:01
    suck all your minerals out well the
  • 00:48:02
    plant's using it for you know holding
  • 00:48:04
    onto minerals and for defense and so
  • 00:48:07
    it's the same thing with the oxalates so
  • 00:48:09
    you end up with these soluble oxalates
  • 00:48:10
    which are the free versions that kind of
  • 00:48:13
    easily make their way into the blood and
  • 00:48:14
    then you have the you know the crystalin
  • 00:48:16
    form that are the insoluble stuff so the
  • 00:48:19
    research on this is actually kind of
  • 00:48:21
    annoying because there's no there's no
  • 00:48:23
    real like good table like here's all the
  • 00:48:26
    stuff that exist um so I talked to Sally
  • 00:48:29
    Norton she's a oxalate she's like the
  • 00:48:31
    oxalate Queen she like like like I made
  • 00:48:34
    a video with her because she's just
  • 00:48:35
    that's all she talks about is oxalates
  • 00:48:37
    like her her whole thing and um she's
  • 00:48:39
    actually put together some you know all
  • 00:48:41
    the resources that had like the
  • 00:48:43
    different T different tables of oxy
  • 00:48:45
    containing foods and had it in one place
  • 00:48:48
    and like referenced all these things
  • 00:48:49
    it's really nice like it's a it's it's
  • 00:48:51
    worth finding but it's it's not good
  • 00:48:54
    because the food companies are the ones
  • 00:48:56
    that are looking at the oxil is not not
  • 00:48:58
    like independent people researching this
  • 00:49:00
    stuff so they have all these values all
  • 00:49:01
    over the place so people have to go by
  • 00:49:04
    whatever that has and some things have
  • 00:49:05
    never been tested or looked at yeah or
  • 00:49:07
    just hard to decipher for the lay person
  • 00:49:09
    in the first place they don't really
  • 00:49:10
    know what they're looking at yeah is
  • 00:49:12
    there uh and I don't want to you know
  • 00:49:14
    put you into a corner of making a claim
  • 00:49:15
    but is there is there an element of Keto
  • 00:49:18
    Citra that could help with oxalates as
  • 00:49:20
    well I mean just this the tra and stuff
  • 00:49:22
    well that's that's why we put the
  • 00:49:23
    calcium and the Magnesium yeah those are
  • 00:49:25
    bind to oxalates um in you know in the
  • 00:49:27
    food and in the gut and hopefully they
  • 00:49:29
    won't get absorbed I mean that's the
  • 00:49:31
    that's why one of the things we're
  • 00:49:33
    hoping will happen yeah yeah well Dr
  • 00:49:35
    Torres I appreciate it man thank you
  • 00:49:37
    very much well thanks than talking to
  • 00:49:39
    you
Tags
  • metabolic health
  • kidneys
  • metabolism
  • ketones
  • chronic kidney disease
  • oxalates
  • inflammation
  • energy regulation
  • PKD
  • nutrition