Rethinking Atonement | David Moffit

00:57:49
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A78sSOuwJM8

Résumé

TLDRThis episode of "Messiah Podcast" features Dr. David Moffett, who delves into the complexities of Jesus' atonement, reconstructing the common understanding influenced by traditional Christian theology. Dr. Moffett, a New Testament scholar, critiques and re-evaluates long-held notions, particularly in relation to the Epistle to the Hebrews. He argues that the resurrection and ascension of Jesus are pivotal to the concept of atonement, often overshadowed by the emphasis on crucifixion. Through the lens of a post-supersessionist perspective, he challenges the interpretations that separate Christian and Jewish sacrificial practices. The conversation also touches on how the teachings of Hebrews and Leviticus can be harmonized, suggesting that the atonement is an ongoing process defined by Jesus' current priestly role in heaven, not just his death on the cross. Dr. Moffett is currently expanding on these ideas in a forthcoming book.

A retenir

  • 📖 The podcast challenges traditional Christian views on atonement.
  • 🧠 Dr. Moffett emphasizes the importance of Jesus' resurrection in atonement.
  • 🔍 Hebrews is re-evaluated to align with Jewish sacrificial logic.
  • ✝️ Jesus' priesthood is examined in a broader religious context.
  • 📜 The discussion includes interpretations of Jewish texts like Leviticus.
  • 📚 Dr. Moffett's book offers new perspectives on these theological issues.
  • 🔄 The atonement is seen as more than just the crucifixion, involving ascension.
  • 💬 Discussions include how Christian and Jewish thoughts can harmonize.
  • 🕊️ The podcast aims to circulate these ideas through the Messianic Jewish movement.
  • 🔜 Dr. Moffett is working on further scholarly exploration of these topics.

Chronologie

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The podcast introduces Dr. David Moffett, a New Testament scholar, who discusses the understanding of atonement and challenges traditional Christian theology related to Jesus' death and resurrection.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Dr. Moffett explains how his work is not necessarily post-supersessionist but is more about understanding New Testament texts historically. He shares how his interest in Hebrews led him to study Jesus' resurrection and sacrifice differently.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    He details his realization that sacrifice in Hebrews involves more than just Jesus' death on the cross, exploring the significance of Jesus presenting himself to God post-resurrection, which led him to revisit Leviticus.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Moffett explains the process of atonement as detailed in Leviticus, emphasizing that atonement involves presenting an offering to God and not just the death of an animal. It's about the relationship and addressing relational issues with God.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    He argues that the traditional Christian understanding often misinterprets Levitical sacrifice, noting that God's forgiveness follows the act of applying blood to the altar, highlighting the importance of cleansing rather than punishment.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Moffett discusses Hebrews and argues that the comparisons made with Moses aren't about deprecation but illustrating Jesus' greater access to the divine. He suggests Hebrews argues from a standpoint of confirming Jewish logic rather than replacing it.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    The conversation shifts to the role of Melchizedek in Hebrews, where Moffett explains that Hebrews acknowledges two priesthoods and argues Jesus' priesthood parallels Melchizedek's, which is legitimate and eternal but not based on genealogy.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Moffett clarifies that Jesus' priesthood is legitimate due to his resurrection, qualifying him for Melchizedek’s priesthood, and explains how Hebrews shows respect for the law by acknowledging Jesus could not be a priest under Jewish law on Earth.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    He further expounds that ascension, not the crucifixion, is when Jesus offers himself before God in the heavenly realm, showing Hebrews' focus on metaphorical presentation of Jesus' work rather than defining it by physical events alone.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    Dr. Moffett announces his upcoming work, which will delve into New Testament interpretations of sacrifice, examining how early Christians understood sacrificial systems, both from Jewish and Greco-Roman perspectives, to further clarify these theological concepts.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:57:49

    The hosts share their enthusiasm for Dr. Moffett's insights, highlighting the depth and challenge his work presents to both traditional and modern interpretations of New Testament themes, concluding with an invitation to further discussions.

Afficher plus

Carte mentale

Mind Map

Vidéo Q&R

  • Who is Dr. David Moffett?

    Dr. David Moffett is a New Testament scholar who offers a new perspective on atonement in his recent book.

  • What is the main topic of discussion in the podcast?

    The podcast discusses atonement and re-evaluates traditional Christian theology regarding Jesus' death and resurrection.

  • What is the title of Dr. Moffett's new book?

    Dr. Moffett's new book is titled "Rethinking the Atonement: New Perspectives on Jesus’ Death, Resurrection, and Ascension."

  • What perspective does Dr. Moffett challenge in the podcast?

    He challenges traditional Christian views, specifically regarding the book of Hebrews and the concept of atonement.

  • What does Hebrews say about Jesus' atonement?

    The podcast suggests that traditional interpretations of Hebrews may not fully capture the significance of Jesus' resurrection and atonement.

  • What is the relationship between atonement and sacrifice according to Dr. Moffett?

    Dr. Moffett emphasizes the importance of Jesus' resurrection and ascension in the context of atonement, not just focusing on the crucifixion.

  • What is a major theme discussed regarding the book of Hebrews?

    A major theme is the reevaluation of Jesus' atonement, taking into account Jewish sacrificial understandings.

  • What unique view does Dr. Moffett offer about the resurrection?

    He proposes that the resurrection is critical for understanding the nature and mechanism of atonement.

  • How does Dr. Moffett interpret Jesus' priesthood compared to Moses'?

    He argues that Jesus' priesthood should be seen in light of Jewish sacrificial logic, rather than superseding or replacing it.

  • What future work is Dr. Moffett pursuing?

    He is working on a book exploring the details of sacrifice in ancient Jewish and early Christian contexts.

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  • 00:00:00
    what is atonement what does it actually
  • 00:00:03
    mean that Jesus died for our sins
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    has traditional Christian theology given
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    us the whole picture
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    Our Guest today will wrestle with these
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    questions for us Dr David Moffett is an
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    erudite New Testament scholar and
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    creative thinker who's not afraid to
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    challenge the status quo
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    [Music]
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    Rabbi from the gallery
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    [Music]
  • 00:00:40
    [Applause]
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    Messiah podcast is brought to you by
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    first Fruits of Zion
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    [Music]
  • 00:00:51
    well welcome back to Messiah podcast
  • 00:00:53
    where Jesus is Jewish and that changes
  • 00:00:56
    everything I'm Stephanie Hammond here
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    today with my co-host Jacob franzak how
  • 00:01:01
    you doing Jacob oh what's up I'm okay
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    how are you
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    doing all right just really excited
  • 00:01:08
    because we've got Dr Moffett here on on
  • 00:01:11
    the podcast today and we've been really
  • 00:01:14
    looking forward to introducing him to
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    our listeners because Jacob you read his
  • 00:01:18
    book I'm sure you realize he's the first
  • 00:01:20
    strong academic voice at least that
  • 00:01:22
    we've heard that supports our reading of
  • 00:01:25
    the book of Hebrews yeah yeah Hebrews is
  • 00:01:27
    a tough one there's a lot of stuff out
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    there on Jesus a lot of stuff on Paul
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    but Hebrews is is uh is it has some
  • 00:01:35
    difficult uh passages in there
  • 00:01:37
    certainly does and we're going to dive
  • 00:01:39
    into it today but Dr moffett's new book
  • 00:01:41
    just came out at the end of last year
  • 00:01:43
    and it's titled rethinking the atonement
  • 00:01:45
    New Perspectives on Jesus death
  • 00:01:48
    resurrection and Ascension so obviously
  • 00:01:51
    Jacob I mean it's important to
  • 00:01:53
    understand atonement oh yeah it's
  • 00:01:55
    essential for any follower yeah of Jesus
  • 00:01:57
    well I mean it all I went to a couple
  • 00:01:59
    different Christian colleges and uh
  • 00:02:01
    you know if they if they were to ask you
  • 00:02:03
    know uh how how is a person saved and
  • 00:02:06
    you just said penal substitutionary
  • 00:02:08
    atonement you'd probably you'd probably
  • 00:02:10
    get at least like a 95 like that could
  • 00:02:12
    your theory of the atonement gets you
  • 00:02:14
    pretty much there right yeah I agreed
  • 00:02:16
    but um what is it all actually mean and
  • 00:02:19
    are we understanding it correctly and if
  • 00:02:21
    that stuff comes into question I think
  • 00:02:23
    it's really vital for believers to
  • 00:02:25
    actually wrestle with so his book does
  • 00:02:27
    just that and um we think it needs to be
  • 00:02:30
    circulated through the entire Messianic
  • 00:02:32
    Jewish movement so that's why we're
  • 00:02:33
    talking about it today so we'll be
  • 00:02:36
    speaking with Dr Moffett on today's
  • 00:02:37
    episode of Messiah podcast and we're
  • 00:02:40
    excited to welcome him all this and more
  • 00:02:43
    coming right up
  • 00:02:49
    well welcome Dr David moffat's a messiah
  • 00:02:52
    podcast it's really really great to have
  • 00:02:54
    you here yeah it's a pleasure to be here
  • 00:02:56
    thank you for the invitation yeah we're
  • 00:02:58
    we're excited about this one because
  • 00:03:00
    it's not it's not often that we're able
  • 00:03:02
    to have someone who has um
  • 00:03:04
    written so extensively and meticulously
  • 00:03:07
    and like academically from a post-super
  • 00:03:10
    sessionist perspective now
  • 00:03:14
    it's not the majority of Scholars I
  • 00:03:16
    would say it's probably still a minority
  • 00:03:17
    in the academy right the
  • 00:03:18
    post-supercessionist uh perspective
  • 00:03:20
    that's probably right and it's new
  • 00:03:22
    enough it's new enough that like not a
  • 00:03:25
    lot of us were born into it we didn't
  • 00:03:26
    inherit this from uh necessarily from
  • 00:03:29
    our our youth so I thought I would ask
  • 00:03:32
    um how did you
  • 00:03:34
    come to this position to to where you
  • 00:03:37
    now have uh adopted a
  • 00:03:39
    post-supercessionist perspective what
  • 00:03:40
    convinced you
  • 00:03:42
    uh right so I just have to say up front
  • 00:03:44
    I don't view myself as doing
  • 00:03:47
    post-supercessionist work I view myself
  • 00:03:49
    as trying to do good historical work on
  • 00:03:52
    New Testament texts I did my doctoral
  • 00:03:55
    training at Duke University and uh
  • 00:03:58
    people like EP Sanders and Richard Hayes
  • 00:04:00
    and Joel Marcus many others were hugely
  • 00:04:03
    influential on how I do the work I do
  • 00:04:06
    and the ways that I think about what I'm
  • 00:04:07
    doing
  • 00:04:08
    prior to that though actually NT Wright
  • 00:04:11
    had actually shown me when I was still
  • 00:04:14
    just an undergraduate that the
  • 00:04:16
    Christianity that I grew up with I
  • 00:04:19
    started reading some of Tom's work he
  • 00:04:21
    showed me that the Christianity I grew
  • 00:04:23
    up with really didn't think very hard or
  • 00:04:25
    seriously about the resurrection
  • 00:04:28
    I just discovered that I had a
  • 00:04:30
    Christianity that believed that Jesus
  • 00:04:32
    rose from the dead but really didn't
  • 00:04:34
    think it was that significant apart from
  • 00:04:36
    maybe vindicating the work that he did
  • 00:04:39
    on the cross as I moved into thinking
  • 00:04:42
    about doing my doctoral work I knew that
  • 00:04:44
    I wanted to do something with Hebrews
  • 00:04:46
    this was a text that I could not wrap my
  • 00:04:48
    head around it was not doing any of the
  • 00:04:50
    things that I was told had heard from
  • 00:04:54
    various pastors had heard from various
  • 00:04:56
    Seminary professors like keevers broke
  • 00:04:58
    all the rules like how do you read
  • 00:04:59
    scripture this way that that for me was
  • 00:05:02
    one of the driving questions as I got
  • 00:05:04
    into it I saw an argument for Jesus
  • 00:05:07
    resurrection being important for Hebrews
  • 00:05:09
    and that put me right against much more
  • 00:05:14
    traditional modern interpretations of
  • 00:05:16
    Hebrews who tended to view the text as
  • 00:05:20
    saying almost nothing or maybe even
  • 00:05:23
    denying any notion of Jesus bodily
  • 00:05:26
    Resurrection now you may be wondering
  • 00:05:28
    where this is going in terms of your
  • 00:05:30
    question but it's basically this as I've
  • 00:05:33
    read Hebrews in and thought I saw more
  • 00:05:36
    evidence for Jesus resurrection it put
  • 00:05:39
    me face to face with an issue that had
  • 00:05:42
    not anticipated at all and that was I
  • 00:05:46
    couldn't make sense of how Hebrews was
  • 00:05:48
    talking about Jesus sacrifice
  • 00:05:50
    in light of the Resurrection being a
  • 00:05:53
    part of the argument
  • 00:05:55
    and where that ended up taking me was a
  • 00:05:58
    realization that I just didn't even
  • 00:06:01
    understand sacrifice with Jesus
  • 00:06:03
    resurrection in Hebrews the language of
  • 00:06:06
    Jesus passing through the heavens and
  • 00:06:08
    presenting himself to the father
  • 00:06:11
    appearing before the face of the father
  • 00:06:13
    and offering himself as a sacrifice
  • 00:06:16
    suddenly meant things that I couldn't
  • 00:06:18
    figure out and that pushed me back to
  • 00:06:21
    Leviticus I remember thinking like well
  • 00:06:24
    if the resurrection is here then when
  • 00:06:26
    the writer says Jesus passes through the
  • 00:06:28
    heavens and then appears before the
  • 00:06:30
    father he's got to be meaning something
  • 00:06:32
    other than the cross is the sum total of
  • 00:06:36
    Jesus offering himself the God as a
  • 00:06:38
    sacrifice but that made no sense to me
  • 00:06:40
    because sacrifice was killing something
  • 00:06:43
    on an altar that's I knew that that's
  • 00:06:45
    what sacrifice was and this thought then
  • 00:06:48
    occurred to me like there's a lot more
  • 00:06:51
    in Leviticus than simply killing an
  • 00:06:53
    animal when that I thought occurred to
  • 00:06:55
    me I literally went back that night and
  • 00:06:58
    red Leviticus straight through in one
  • 00:07:01
    sitting right and it was mainly looking
  • 00:07:03
    at all the sacrificial stuff and I I
  • 00:07:05
    asked just one question what did the
  • 00:07:08
    death of the animal do and that change
  • 00:07:11
    that's when the penny for me dropped
  • 00:07:13
    because suddenly it was very clear at
  • 00:07:16
    least I thought it was clear that
  • 00:07:18
    Leviticus was pressuring me to think not
  • 00:07:20
    so much about the death although that's
  • 00:07:22
    part of a sacrifice but much more about
  • 00:07:25
    presenting The Blood In the Flesh on an
  • 00:07:28
    altar to God
  • 00:07:30
    okay now I apologize I realized that was
  • 00:07:33
    a bit of a lengthy introduction but
  • 00:07:35
    that's the lead-in to answering your
  • 00:07:37
    question because what I discovered was
  • 00:07:40
    that the very sort of pressure that I
  • 00:07:42
    thought Hebrews was putting on me in
  • 00:07:44
    light of the Resurrection to view the
  • 00:07:47
    focal point of Jesus sacrifice as his
  • 00:07:50
    entering the Heavenly Tabernacle and
  • 00:07:52
    presenting himself as a gift before God
  • 00:07:55
    in the presence of God indeed in the
  • 00:07:58
    Heavenly holy of holies suddenly I saw
  • 00:08:01
    that Leviticus was pressuring me to
  • 00:08:02
    think about sacrifice in very similar
  • 00:08:05
    ways where the focal point was not on
  • 00:08:08
    killing the animal but it was on
  • 00:08:10
    bringing the blood in the flesh to The
  • 00:08:12
    Altar and then in some cases even taking
  • 00:08:14
    the blood into the Tabernacle and
  • 00:08:17
    presenting it before God and that blew
  • 00:08:20
    my mind because uh that was not a
  • 00:08:22
    concept of sacrifice that I had ever
  • 00:08:25
    thought about before it was not
  • 00:08:27
    something that I was getting from my
  • 00:08:28
    Christian tradition but it suddenly
  • 00:08:30
    referred to me that Hebrews had taught
  • 00:08:34
    me to be a better and more careful
  • 00:08:36
    reader of Leviticus
  • 00:08:38
    and that cut directly against sort of
  • 00:08:41
    standard supersessionous accounts of
  • 00:08:43
    Hebrews because if this was right and
  • 00:08:46
    and this was something that that I felt
  • 00:08:48
    like was not coming from anything I had
  • 00:08:50
    thought before but actually the pressure
  • 00:08:52
    of the text but if this was right then
  • 00:08:55
    Hebrews
  • 00:08:56
    understood Jewish sacrifice better than
  • 00:08:59
    I did as a gentile 2000 years later
  • 00:09:01
    never even having witnessed the
  • 00:09:03
    sacrifice that quite literally is what
  • 00:09:06
    set me on this course of saying maybe
  • 00:09:09
    Hebrews is not uh throwing all of these
  • 00:09:13
    Jewish ideas out the window and saying
  • 00:09:16
    that there was something new maybe
  • 00:09:18
    Hebrews is really working with deeply
  • 00:09:20
    Jewish Logics deeply Jewish ideas on the
  • 00:09:24
    one thing that everybody knows Hebrews
  • 00:09:26
    rejects namely Jewish sacrifice and
  • 00:09:29
    actually reading Jesus and Jesus
  • 00:09:31
    sacrifice in ways that were highly
  • 00:09:34
    analogous with Jewish sacrificial
  • 00:09:36
    practice that's what set me on a course
  • 00:09:39
    to to read Hebrews in ways that were not
  • 00:09:41
    in my view fundamentally supersessionist
  • 00:09:44
    that's incredible you've also answered
  • 00:09:47
    my next seven questions no I'm kidding
  • 00:09:49
    but I think just to contextualize what
  • 00:09:52
    you've said for some of our listeners
  • 00:09:53
    when you look at the the history of New
  • 00:09:57
    Testament interpretation and sort of how
  • 00:10:00
    we got here yeah how
  • 00:10:03
    post-supercessionist thought came about
  • 00:10:06
    you know you have back in the 1700s you
  • 00:10:09
    have people saying well Jesus came to
  • 00:10:10
    fulfill the eschatological expectations
  • 00:10:13
    of the Jewish people you have people you
  • 00:10:15
    have Jewish rabbis saying this like
  • 00:10:16
    Jacob emden you have Roy Morris saying
  • 00:10:19
    this and and maybe John toland a little
  • 00:10:21
    bit and and so these ideas were there
  • 00:10:23
    back then for Jesus and then in the
  • 00:10:25
    academy it became sort of well what was
  • 00:10:28
    Paul doing and so you have this whole
  • 00:10:30
    thing of FC Bowers saying well Paul you
  • 00:10:33
    know
  • 00:10:34
    disagreed with the other Apostles and
  • 00:10:36
    went on to do sort of something
  • 00:10:38
    different right but then after like in
  • 00:10:40
    1977 you start finding people saying
  • 00:10:42
    well actually maybe Paul is a good Jew
  • 00:10:44
    too but then there was still just like
  • 00:10:46
    it's still Hebrews is still there yeah
  • 00:10:49
    right yeah and that's like the fight the
  • 00:10:51
    final Domino for a lot of people to
  • 00:10:53
    follow what do we do with Hebrews
  • 00:10:55
    because it looks really super sessionist
  • 00:10:57
    yeah and to hear that you're like entry
  • 00:10:59
    into this way of of thinking was from
  • 00:11:02
    from Reading Hebrews it's like you know
  • 00:11:04
    you used to the video game
  • 00:11:08
    of New Testament interpretation that's
  • 00:11:10
    incredibly impressive to me that um that
  • 00:11:13
    you were able to do that and just just
  • 00:11:14
    from Reading Leviticus so major props
  • 00:11:18
    um to you for that but I especially love
  • 00:11:20
    the fact that you said you're not
  • 00:11:22
    necessarily going into it oh I'm doing
  • 00:11:24
    post-supercessionist work but just as a
  • 00:11:26
    natural result of reading the text and
  • 00:11:28
    and allowing that Jewish perspective in
  • 00:11:30
    context you came to that conclusion I
  • 00:11:32
    think that's really telling and
  • 00:11:33
    wonderful let's get a taste of this
  • 00:11:36
    process because because like you said a
  • 00:11:39
    lot of people come to come to the Old
  • 00:11:41
    Testament with what they think they know
  • 00:11:42
    about the New Testament and everything
  • 00:11:43
    gets sort of turned upside down what if
  • 00:11:46
    we start with a basic idea because for I
  • 00:11:49
    mean hopefully all of our listeners
  • 00:11:50
    don't have a lot of personal experience
  • 00:11:52
    with them with animal sacrifices
  • 00:11:55
    um it's it's a ritual that we're not
  • 00:11:57
    terribly familiar with in real life and
  • 00:11:59
    not even really like no not even really
  • 00:12:01
    familiar with it from a scriptural
  • 00:12:02
    perspective that's right because well I
  • 00:12:05
    don't know then this is going to sound
  • 00:12:07
    pejorative but growing up Christian I
  • 00:12:09
    feel like the story of the Bible was
  • 00:12:11
    Genesis chapters one two and three and
  • 00:12:15
    then like that The Passion of the Christ
  • 00:12:17
    just comes after that
  • 00:12:19
    um and there's a whole lot of stuff in
  • 00:12:21
    the middle there that sort of gets
  • 00:12:22
    glossed over and um indeed but we do
  • 00:12:25
    find that when we start digging into the
  • 00:12:28
    theology we find this Theology of for
  • 00:12:29
    example the atonement has built on a lot
  • 00:12:31
    of language that we do find in Leviticus
  • 00:12:35
    however
  • 00:12:37
    not really knowing that much about
  • 00:12:40
    animal sacrifices
  • 00:12:41
    you know in practice or even really in
  • 00:12:43
    theory uh I think probably a lot of our
  • 00:12:45
    listeners would be in that same boat so
  • 00:12:47
    can you you know help us get into the
  • 00:12:50
    mindset of an ancient person bringing an
  • 00:12:53
    animal to the Tabernacle or to the
  • 00:12:56
    temple
  • 00:12:57
    what is what are we doing what is an
  • 00:13:00
    animal sacrifice what does God want a
  • 00:13:02
    dead goat for or does he and what is
  • 00:13:06
    what what's the what's the significance
  • 00:13:09
    of the act of of bringing an animal
  • 00:13:12
    killing it putting the blood on the
  • 00:13:15
    altar what does that accomplish what's
  • 00:13:16
    it for
  • 00:13:18
    well I mean this is a a huge uh question
  • 00:13:21
    as I'm sure you're well aware I I think
  • 00:13:24
    levitical sacrifice that's I think
  • 00:13:27
    that's an important qualifier levitical
  • 00:13:29
    sacrifice is uh something that functions
  • 00:13:33
    within the context of the Mosaic
  • 00:13:36
    Covenant you don't get levitical
  • 00:13:38
    sacrifice before the Mosaic Covenant
  • 00:13:41
    there's a couple of reasons for that at
  • 00:13:43
    least the way it's presented in the
  • 00:13:44
    pentateuch basically then levitical
  • 00:13:47
    sacrifice at the Tabernacle this is all
  • 00:13:50
    about worshiping God and negotiating the
  • 00:13:53
    relationship in various respects between
  • 00:13:56
    God and God's people who have been
  • 00:13:59
    liberated from Egypt so that's sort of a
  • 00:14:01
    big idea of what sacrifice is doing now
  • 00:14:04
    within levitical sacrifice itself there
  • 00:14:06
    are different kinds of sacrifices that
  • 00:14:09
    one offers for very different kinds of
  • 00:14:12
    reasons yeah and this is something that
  • 00:14:14
    sometimes we tend to miss when we sort
  • 00:14:17
    of mash up all all the sacrifices and
  • 00:14:20
    imagine that it's all fulfilled simply
  • 00:14:22
    by the death of Jesus the only time that
  • 00:14:26
    the layperson gets to eat any of the
  • 00:14:30
    sacrificial meat is when the layperson
  • 00:14:32
    brings a peace offering
  • 00:14:36
    and Passover which is almost certainly a
  • 00:14:39
    subcategory of
  • 00:14:41
    although Passover is a kind of liminal
  • 00:14:43
    sacrifice that's the only time that an
  • 00:14:46
    offer gets to participate in eating from
  • 00:14:49
    the sacrifice and that sacrifice is not
  • 00:14:53
    given to deal with any kind of sin
  • 00:14:55
    problem it doesn't make atonement if we
  • 00:14:58
    want to use that language now there are
  • 00:15:01
    other sacrifices then which you might
  • 00:15:03
    give freely or because you made a vow to
  • 00:15:06
    the Lord that could include a zevac
  • 00:15:09
    shalamim of certain kinds to give thanks
  • 00:15:11
    to God but it could also include a whole
  • 00:15:13
    burnt offering which is the very first
  • 00:15:15
    sacrifice Leviticus discusses there's
  • 00:15:19
    also a grain offering which can sort of
  • 00:15:21
    function in different ways depending on
  • 00:15:24
    on what's needed and there seems to be
  • 00:15:27
    some recognition here that the poor for
  • 00:15:30
    example are not going to be able to
  • 00:15:32
    afford the cost of offering an animal so
  • 00:15:36
    there are some cases in which they can
  • 00:15:38
    offer grain and it will function in the
  • 00:15:41
    same way that some of the animal
  • 00:15:42
    offerings will function so then the sin
  • 00:15:45
    offering and the guilt offering
  • 00:15:47
    well these are sacrifices that are given
  • 00:15:50
    because in the case of the sin offering
  • 00:15:52
    there's been some kind of moral fault
  • 00:15:55
    somebody has messed up and in the case
  • 00:15:58
    of the sin offering didn't realize they
  • 00:15:59
    messed up but then realized it and oh I
  • 00:16:03
    need to take care of this because it
  • 00:16:05
    creates a problem between myself and my
  • 00:16:08
    God the guilt offering is is offered
  • 00:16:11
    when you sort of you know you messed up
  • 00:16:13
    you you knew before you even did it but
  • 00:16:16
    of course it's not the animal that takes
  • 00:16:17
    the punishment it's the offer who
  • 00:16:20
    committed the sin okay all that is a way
  • 00:16:23
    of saying that that these levitical
  • 00:16:25
    sacrifices are deeply relational and the
  • 00:16:29
    role that they seem to play is giving an
  • 00:16:32
    opportunity to give thanks to God to
  • 00:16:34
    praise God to tell God how much you love
  • 00:16:36
    him to celebrate with God and with God's
  • 00:16:39
    people or to fix certain problems that
  • 00:16:42
    have occurred in the relationship based
  • 00:16:44
    on sin and based on problems that are
  • 00:16:47
    created by mortality and death which are
  • 00:16:51
    threats both to to God's presence being
  • 00:16:54
    willing to stay among his people and to
  • 00:16:57
    the people's safety as they approach
  • 00:16:59
    God's presence so that I think is a
  • 00:17:02
    helpful way of reflecting on what
  • 00:17:04
    levitical sacrifices are they they're
  • 00:17:06
    gifts that you give to your God as a way
  • 00:17:10
    of worshiping praising giving thanks and
  • 00:17:13
    also as a way of trying to restore and
  • 00:17:16
    heal or fix certain problems in the
  • 00:17:18
    relationship
  • 00:17:19
    so you mentioned that the animals
  • 00:17:21
    they're not not the one being punished
  • 00:17:23
    which I think right is
  • 00:17:25
    I mean
  • 00:17:27
    as a baby Christian like as a small
  • 00:17:29
    child
  • 00:17:30
    that's what it looked like it looks like
  • 00:17:32
    oh somebody sinned so so you reassign
  • 00:17:38
    the sin or the guilt onto this goat or
  • 00:17:41
    or cow or whatever it is or innocent
  • 00:17:43
    animal yeah yeah right right and then it
  • 00:17:46
    has to die now
  • 00:17:48
    if I had read it more closely I would
  • 00:17:50
    have noticed it sometimes you bring
  • 00:17:51
    cereal grains which exactly doesn't
  • 00:17:54
    appear you know that the metaphor sort
  • 00:17:57
    of falls apart at that point
  • 00:17:58
    So within that context of a levitical
  • 00:18:02
    sacrifice when you know the the blood
  • 00:18:06
    um makes contact with the Altar and
  • 00:18:08
    something called atonement happens yes
  • 00:18:11
    right compare right what is what is that
  • 00:18:13
    okay yeah um there are some interesting
  • 00:18:16
    things that we should pay attention to
  • 00:18:18
    with Leviticus not one time in the
  • 00:18:21
    levitical sacrificial accounts is God
  • 00:18:25
    ever the direct object of compare okay
  • 00:18:30
    so God is never the one receiving or uh
  • 00:18:34
    you know the action of whatever
  • 00:18:35
    happening with compare now that is very
  • 00:18:39
    strange if compare means to reconcile
  • 00:18:42
    because you would expect that if compare
  • 00:18:44
    meant to reconcile then God would be the
  • 00:18:47
    object because he's the one with whom
  • 00:18:49
    you're being reconciled right when we do
  • 00:18:52
    have statements that involve some sort
  • 00:18:54
    of conceptual notion of reconciliation
  • 00:18:56
    they always are subsequent to the action
  • 00:18:59
    of compare on the altar so it's after
  • 00:19:02
    the compare on the altar that then God
  • 00:19:05
    will forgive
  • 00:19:06
    okay and forgiveness conceptually I
  • 00:19:09
    can't see any reason why conceptually
  • 00:19:11
    that's not a reconciling idea you're
  • 00:19:14
    bringing people one offended party you
  • 00:19:17
    know is willing to sort of let things go
  • 00:19:18
    yeah but since God is not himself the
  • 00:19:21
    direct object of compare in fact what we
  • 00:19:24
    get in in the levitical system is that
  • 00:19:27
    often the altar is the direct object or
  • 00:19:30
    parts of the Tabernacle but but how on
  • 00:19:33
    Earth are you reconciling yourself with
  • 00:19:35
    the altar or with parts of the
  • 00:19:37
    Tabernacle that doesn't make any sense
  • 00:19:39
    there are several Hebrew Bible scholars
  • 00:19:42
    uh some of whom are Jewish who have made
  • 00:19:44
    the argument that this verb really has
  • 00:19:46
    to do with some notion of purifying or
  • 00:19:50
    removing some kind of thing that is
  • 00:19:52
    attached to the altar into parts of the
  • 00:19:55
    Tabernacle and that once you remove that
  • 00:19:58
    then God is willing to say okay I will
  • 00:20:02
    forgive now two quick points here
  • 00:20:05
    the Jewish sacrificial system is is
  • 00:20:08
    never about manipulating God the
  • 00:20:10
    prophets are crystal clear on this point
  • 00:20:12
    right so whatever's going on it's not
  • 00:20:15
    like God's willingness to forgive is
  • 00:20:17
    somehow limited by or manipulated by
  • 00:20:21
    what's going on in the sacrificial
  • 00:20:22
    system nevertheless God condescends to
  • 00:20:27
    give the sacrificial system and the
  • 00:20:29
    priesthood and the Tabernacle to his
  • 00:20:31
    people as a way of of allowing for him
  • 00:20:35
    to dwell together with them in their
  • 00:20:37
    midst so there's something going on here
  • 00:20:39
    that we should take seriously but in no
  • 00:20:42
    way limits God's freedom to act nor does
  • 00:20:46
    it manipulate this God yeah the second
  • 00:20:48
    thing then is to say that well what's
  • 00:20:50
    going on then if there's something being
  • 00:20:53
    removed and we get different metaphors
  • 00:20:55
    used but the idea of sin somehow
  • 00:20:58
    bringing a a stain or reaching a
  • 00:21:02
    relationship that some in some way
  • 00:21:04
    something happens at God's house and
  • 00:21:08
    especially around God's altar that
  • 00:21:11
    creates something that's an offense to
  • 00:21:14
    God and it needs to be removed and
  • 00:21:18
    applying blood to the altar is one of
  • 00:21:20
    the chief ways that that thing can be
  • 00:21:23
    removed after which God condescends to
  • 00:21:27
    forgive the offer that also is not a
  • 00:21:31
    reductive account of what's going on uh
  • 00:21:33
    the offer certainly has to bring
  • 00:21:35
    repentance there are times especially
  • 00:21:37
    with parts some of the guilt offering
  • 00:21:39
    where confession is clear there's a lot
  • 00:21:41
    more going on here but there is
  • 00:21:43
    something that has to be removed from
  • 00:21:46
    the altar by way of blood in a sense
  • 00:21:49
    blood is like some kind of detergent
  • 00:21:51
    here it is working to remove to purify
  • 00:21:55
    to cleanse the space where God lives and
  • 00:21:59
    the altar where his sacrifices are
  • 00:22:01
    actually brought into his presence so
  • 00:22:04
    that God's Wrath won't break out and so
  • 00:22:07
    that God's people can approach God
  • 00:22:10
    himself and the closest we get to an
  • 00:22:13
    explanation for why blood can do this is
  • 00:22:15
    Leviticus 17 11. where I think there's
  • 00:22:18
    some sort of larger idea of blood being
  • 00:22:21
    applied to the altar because blood is
  • 00:22:24
    life
  • 00:22:25
    and it's the life which is there in the
  • 00:22:27
    blood which has the ability to remove
  • 00:22:30
    whatever this problem is that compare is
  • 00:22:32
    naming
  • 00:22:33
    there's a there's a dense answer I know
  • 00:22:36
    there's a lot going on there but that
  • 00:22:38
    ultimately this language of atonement
  • 00:22:39
    when it's applied to levitical sacrifice
  • 00:22:42
    is translating this idea of compare and
  • 00:22:46
    it mistakenly in my humble opinion
  • 00:22:50
    substitutes the end result of the
  • 00:22:54
    process
  • 00:22:55
    with the actual mechanism which then
  • 00:22:57
    gets sort of hidden because by making
  • 00:23:00
    atonement you don't see this purifying
  • 00:23:03
    mechanism where this removal mechanism
  • 00:23:05
    you see then result uh that God and and
  • 00:23:09
    the offer are somehow restored in their
  • 00:23:11
    relationship but that's not in my view a
  • 00:23:14
    helpful translation of of that verb let
  • 00:23:17
    me use a certain kind of metaphor to
  • 00:23:18
    illustrate this right or an analogy if I
  • 00:23:22
    say to someone go lock the door well I
  • 00:23:25
    think they'll understand exactly what
  • 00:23:27
    I'm asking in terms of the final state
  • 00:23:29
    of the door but there are all kinds of
  • 00:23:31
    different locking mechanisms okay
  • 00:23:34
    locking the door doesn't tell you the
  • 00:23:36
    mechanism
  • 00:23:38
    it tells you what the final state is
  • 00:23:40
    supposed to be but if somebody's trying
  • 00:23:42
    to tell you how you get to that state
  • 00:23:45
    you need different language you need to
  • 00:23:48
    say go turn the bolt or go put the key
  • 00:23:51
    in or go apply the fob to the sensor and
  • 00:23:54
    that will lock or unlock the door and so
  • 00:23:57
    to say that atonement is going on in
  • 00:24:00
    this the sort of bigger sense of
  • 00:24:02
    reconciling parties is not wrong in
  • 00:24:05
    terms of levitical sacrifice it's just
  • 00:24:07
    that by translating compare with this
  • 00:24:10
    language of atonement it obscures that
  • 00:24:13
    mechanism so you don't see what's
  • 00:24:16
    happening in the process to then give
  • 00:24:19
    you the end result that's I think how
  • 00:24:21
    I'd want to say it it's not the whole
  • 00:24:23
    picture essentially yeah that's right
  • 00:24:25
    it's something we we happen to come
  • 00:24:26
    across a lot here on this podcast
  • 00:24:28
    somehow we're not getting the whole
  • 00:24:30
    picture in different aspects right yeah
  • 00:24:32
    I think and maybe some of our listeners
  • 00:24:34
    will agree with this so far it sounds
  • 00:24:37
    like
  • 00:24:38
    we might just be dealing with
  • 00:24:40
    a technical distinction because once you
  • 00:24:45
    know the mechanism
  • 00:24:47
    lock you know lock it we we all knew we
  • 00:24:50
    were going to get to locking or
  • 00:24:51
    unlocking right right right at some at
  • 00:24:54
    some point so what I what I thought we
  • 00:24:56
    would do is dig into a few passages in
  • 00:25:00
    Hebrews and kind of explore
  • 00:25:03
    how we would come away from these
  • 00:25:06
    passages
  • 00:25:07
    with a different Viewpoint or how we
  • 00:25:09
    might interpret these passages
  • 00:25:10
    differently being armed for forewarned
  • 00:25:14
    and forearmed with some of this more
  • 00:25:16
    technical knowledge great and I wanted
  • 00:25:18
    to start with Hebrews three three and
  • 00:25:21
    fourth yeah which here it says for he
  • 00:25:24
    has been counted Worthy is talking about
  • 00:25:25
    Jesus for he has been counted worthy of
  • 00:25:28
    more Glory than Moses
  • 00:25:30
    by just so much as the builder of the
  • 00:25:32
    house has more honor than the house for
  • 00:25:34
    every house is built by someone
  • 00:25:36
    but the Builder of all things has got
  • 00:25:37
    this isn't the only place in Hebrews I
  • 00:25:39
    think where um where it seems to be
  • 00:25:42
    saying well Moses is down here or Moses
  • 00:25:45
    is old and Moses is outdated or however
  • 00:25:48
    you would would take away whatever verbs
  • 00:25:50
    someone might use there yeah whereas
  • 00:25:51
    Jesus is the new thing and the good
  • 00:25:54
    thing
  • 00:25:54
    and that the author of Hebrews is here
  • 00:25:57
    now setting up an argument he's going to
  • 00:25:59
    carry through the whole epistle which is
  • 00:26:01
    that
  • 00:26:03
    the little vehicle system is is being
  • 00:26:06
    replaced right so what is what might he
  • 00:26:09
    be if that's not the case what what
  • 00:26:12
    value is there here in Hebrews 3 to
  • 00:26:14
    seemingly deprecate Moses in favor of
  • 00:26:18
    Jesus yeah okay so um yeah deprecate
  • 00:26:21
    that's that's um you're absolutely right
  • 00:26:24
    that many people will read Hebrews this
  • 00:26:26
    way one of the problems uh I'm not
  • 00:26:29
    saying all interpreters say this just to
  • 00:26:31
    be clear but some will will argue that
  • 00:26:34
    one of the problems is that you know the
  • 00:26:36
    Jewish religion was so concerned with
  • 00:26:39
    the body and so concerned with these
  • 00:26:41
    material things and what Jesus really
  • 00:26:44
    came to do was to show us that God
  • 00:26:46
    doesn't really care about you know the
  • 00:26:50
    Flesh of your foreskin uh he really
  • 00:26:52
    cares about your heart and and by that
  • 00:26:55
    then you can substitute ideas of spirit
  • 00:26:58
    and even your body like the real goal
  • 00:27:01
    for many people reading Hebrews is for
  • 00:27:04
    you to sort of wander through this
  • 00:27:06
    Earthly existence or or maybe slightly
  • 00:27:09
    more positively you're a pilgrim who's
  • 00:27:12
    moving through this Earthly existence to
  • 00:27:14
    get to the point where you die and then
  • 00:27:17
    your spirit is going to be taken into
  • 00:27:20
    the Heavenly realm where Jesus already
  • 00:27:22
    is and there you enter this platonic
  • 00:27:24
    realm of you know Eternal Bliss and
  • 00:27:27
    everything is hunky-dory
  • 00:27:29
    um oh I read that book yeah right
  • 00:27:31
    um so so then if you have that kind of
  • 00:27:33
    as a background and you read a text like
  • 00:27:36
    like Hebrews 3 3-4 it looks like what
  • 00:27:39
    what the author might be saying is you
  • 00:27:41
    know Jesus gets you to this heavenly
  • 00:27:43
    reality Moses is still stuck on Earth
  • 00:27:46
    and you know that's bad and oh by the
  • 00:27:48
    way that's Jewish and we know that you
  • 00:27:51
    shouldn't you shouldn't go back to
  • 00:27:53
    Judaism you know however there are
  • 00:27:56
    debates about this now there's a lot to
  • 00:27:59
    say that I think pushes back on that
  • 00:28:01
    again for me it all began with
  • 00:28:03
    Resurrection because if bodily
  • 00:28:06
    Resurrection a Jewish notion of
  • 00:28:08
    Resurrection if that actually is there
  • 00:28:11
    in this text then right away it calls
  • 00:28:14
    into question this kind of dualism we
  • 00:28:17
    have throughout Hebrews these
  • 00:28:20
    comparisons between Jesus and well shall
  • 00:28:24
    we say Jewish things okay so you've got
  • 00:28:26
    Jesus is better than the Angels Jesus is
  • 00:28:30
    better than Moses Jesus is better than
  • 00:28:33
    Aaron and the levitical priesthood and
  • 00:28:35
    Jesus sacrifice is better okay there is
  • 00:28:38
    no denying that this language of better
  • 00:28:41
    is a feature of the argumentation of
  • 00:28:44
    Hebrews but
  • 00:28:46
    we need to think hard about how that
  • 00:28:49
    sort of comparison might actually be
  • 00:28:51
    working because if you have that sort of
  • 00:28:54
    background I was just discussing in mind
  • 00:28:56
    it just becomes natural to read that
  • 00:28:58
    comparison as better versus worse or
  • 00:29:02
    maybe even better versus bad
  • 00:29:04
    um so you have this good thing in Jesus
  • 00:29:06
    in this bad thing in Moses because it's
  • 00:29:09
    all about this world and materiality and
  • 00:29:11
    bodies and we know that Jesus came to
  • 00:29:14
    save us from all this material mess so
  • 00:29:17
    that our Spirits could go and live in
  • 00:29:19
    heaven but you know this is not actually
  • 00:29:22
    a very sharp or bright or intelligent
  • 00:29:25
    kind of comparison and when we look at
  • 00:29:29
    some Greco-Roman texts we actually get
  • 00:29:32
    some some um people who who wrote
  • 00:29:35
    instruction manuals on how to make good
  • 00:29:37
    arguments who make the point that you
  • 00:29:40
    know anyone can compare a good thing and
  • 00:29:42
    a bad thing that doesn't show that's not
  • 00:29:43
    a very skillful argument the whole the
  • 00:29:46
    real point of these compare of good
  • 00:29:48
    comparative argument is to take two
  • 00:29:50
    things that people otherwise would think
  • 00:29:52
    are equal and nevertheless show how one
  • 00:29:56
    is better so I I sometimes will try to
  • 00:29:59
    illustrate it by saying you know which
  • 00:30:01
    is better cake or ice cream well okay
  • 00:30:04
    neither of these is being viewed as bad
  • 00:30:09
    but nevertheless you might come up with
  • 00:30:11
    arguments like well if it's a hot day uh
  • 00:30:14
    ice cream is better because it can cool
  • 00:30:16
    you down okay now I'm not saying that
  • 00:30:19
    Hebrews is sort of that you know limited
  • 00:30:22
    to to that sort of argument there there
  • 00:30:24
    are things about Jesus which are far
  • 00:30:27
    superior to anything which has come
  • 00:30:29
    before not least the fact that he is the
  • 00:30:32
    Eternal son of this God the father but
  • 00:30:36
    nevertheless within the kind of
  • 00:30:38
    arguments that Hebrews is pushing the
  • 00:30:40
    whole force of the argument when you
  • 00:30:42
    start to look at it this way begins to
  • 00:30:44
    flip where what you see is it's not that
  • 00:30:47
    Moses is bad it's precisely that Moses
  • 00:30:50
    is so great how much greater is Jesus
  • 00:30:54
    that's the kind of comparative argument
  • 00:30:56
    that's being made here and when it comes
  • 00:30:58
    to this idea of getting access to the
  • 00:31:00
    Heavenly Tabernacle right what Hebrews
  • 00:31:04
    is arguing is as good as these Earthly
  • 00:31:06
    realities are you now have access to the
  • 00:31:10
    very Heavenly reality that even Moses
  • 00:31:12
    himself got to see but that that the law
  • 00:31:16
    never actually brought you access to in
  • 00:31:19
    the way that Jesus Does
  • 00:31:21
    so that kind of of comparative argument
  • 00:31:24
    is not saying that the law is bad uh
  • 00:31:27
    it's saying that even though the law has
  • 00:31:30
    certain things that are good it has
  • 00:31:32
    limitations what Jesus brings is
  • 00:31:35
    something that gets above the
  • 00:31:36
    limitations that the law had and part of
  • 00:31:40
    what the author is doing is and I think
  • 00:31:42
    this is a very kind of Jewish
  • 00:31:44
    apocalyptic way of thinking about these
  • 00:31:46
    issues is then saying that
  • 00:31:48
    the law is uh good for its time and
  • 00:31:52
    place
  • 00:31:53
    But ultimately wouldn't it be better if
  • 00:31:56
    you could get to the realities that the
  • 00:31:59
    law itself is contingent upon
  • 00:32:01
    uh that the Tabernacle and then later
  • 00:32:04
    the temple are themselves in some sense
  • 00:32:07
    contingent upon if you could get access
  • 00:32:09
    to that that would be better that's I
  • 00:32:12
    think the argument of Hebrews when you
  • 00:32:14
    talked about you know that comparison
  • 00:32:16
    yeah and it reminds me at least of a
  • 00:32:18
    rabbinical interpretation too called
  • 00:32:20
    homer which basically says you know by
  • 00:32:23
    extrapolation we know and then all the
  • 00:32:25
    more so this so like see if Moses then
  • 00:32:28
    Jesus if the temp if the temple then the
  • 00:32:31
    Heavenly Temple you know and so it's
  • 00:32:33
    definitely not pitting them against one
  • 00:32:35
    another yes they're working together I
  • 00:32:37
    think that's right I I'm personally not
  • 00:32:40
    of the view that this author would have
  • 00:32:42
    said yeah so now we shouldn't practice
  • 00:32:44
    sacrifice at the temple I don't I don't
  • 00:32:48
    think it would have been that obvious to
  • 00:32:49
    him so one of the verses that appears to
  • 00:32:52
    be more strongly um
  • 00:32:55
    indicative of a of perhaps a super
  • 00:32:57
    sessionist type of of thinking is in
  • 00:33:01
    Hebrews seven yeah where we have this we
  • 00:33:03
    have this language of uh it literally
  • 00:33:06
    just says a change of priesthood a
  • 00:33:08
    change of Law and we have invoked this
  • 00:33:10
    character Melchizedek which you know
  • 00:33:12
    growing up in the church always felt
  • 00:33:14
    like this guy was super mysterious and
  • 00:33:16
    like cool and fascinating like shows up
  • 00:33:18
    for about 10 seconds in Genesis and then
  • 00:33:20
    sort of reverberates throughout
  • 00:33:23
    um the Psalms and then shows up here in
  • 00:33:25
    Hebrews so he the author of Hebrews sort
  • 00:33:28
    of picks this this uh this person out
  • 00:33:31
    and develops this argument about one
  • 00:33:34
    priesthood and another priesthood so we
  • 00:33:36
    did Jesus and Moses and here we seem to
  • 00:33:38
    be sort of maybe Jesus versus Aaron yeah
  • 00:33:41
    and we have we have two two levels of
  • 00:33:44
    priesthood in Hebrews seven so the
  • 00:33:46
    priesthood changes in Hebrews 7 12 where
  • 00:33:48
    the priesthood has changed the
  • 00:33:50
    necessarily that takes a place in in the
  • 00:33:52
    in the or that takes place of change in
  • 00:33:54
    law also yeah and we have this um idea
  • 00:33:58
    that the priesthood of Melchizedek again
  • 00:34:00
    traditionally understood as being the
  • 00:34:03
    real one of the better one the original
  • 00:34:05
    one are we here saying again that this
  • 00:34:08
    is more apples and oranges unless apples
  • 00:34:12
    versus getting punched in the mouth
  • 00:34:17
    can sort of work my way into Hebrews 7.
  • 00:34:20
    I I would want to start by pointing at
  • 00:34:22
    Hebrews 8 4 which says about the Son of
  • 00:34:25
    God about Jesus if he were on Earth
  • 00:34:29
    he would not even be a priest because
  • 00:34:33
    there exists those who offer the gifts
  • 00:34:37
    in accordance with the law
  • 00:34:41
    now that if you stop and just think
  • 00:34:44
    about the logic of that statement which
  • 00:34:45
    is actually a sort of summary of the
  • 00:34:47
    whole argument of Hebrews 7 or of key
  • 00:34:49
    points in Hebrews 7. that is a shocking
  • 00:34:52
    statement uh from the standpoint of
  • 00:34:55
    Hebrews is about throwing the law under
  • 00:34:57
    the bus because Hebrews 8 4 has just
  • 00:35:00
    said that the law has so much Authority
  • 00:35:04
    that the law prevents Jesus from being a
  • 00:35:09
    priest on Earth
  • 00:35:12
    I mean that's really that's what it's
  • 00:35:14
    saying
  • 00:35:15
    that's true no no uh that is not that is
  • 00:35:18
    not a view that is
  • 00:35:21
    anti-law as far as I can see if the
  • 00:35:24
    author's argument was we don't need the
  • 00:35:26
    law anymore just get rid of it then how
  • 00:35:28
    easy would it be to just say the law
  • 00:35:30
    doesn't matter Jesus can be a priest
  • 00:35:32
    because uh because he's the son of God
  • 00:35:35
    say although the author actually argues
  • 00:35:37
    that it's although he is the son he
  • 00:35:40
    learned obedience and became the source
  • 00:35:42
    of Eternal salvation right so so the the
  • 00:35:45
    author doesn't actually develop the
  • 00:35:47
    Priestly idea from Jesus sonship he
  • 00:35:50
    brings it together with Jesus sonship
  • 00:35:52
    and that's exactly what the argument of
  • 00:35:54
    Hebrews 7 is designed to do it's
  • 00:35:57
    designed to show how that link is made
  • 00:35:59
    and it's designed to show how Jesus can
  • 00:36:03
    legitimately be confessed as high priest
  • 00:36:06
    even though
  • 00:36:08
    he's not from the tribe of Levi right
  • 00:36:12
    yeah and that's where the whole point
  • 00:36:14
    comes into play because the law says I
  • 00:36:16
    mean Deuteronomy 18 1-5 is fairly clear
  • 00:36:19
    on this that the priests come from from
  • 00:36:22
    Levi
  • 00:36:23
    the author of Hebrews knows that the
  • 00:36:26
    Incarnation itself in all of its Jewish
  • 00:36:30
    particularity put Jesus in the wrong
  • 00:36:34
    tribe to be a priest yeah yeah exactly
  • 00:36:38
    Jesus was born into the tribe of Judah
  • 00:36:42
    which is great if you want to be Messiah
  • 00:36:44
    but it's not so great if you're gonna
  • 00:36:47
    say he's a priest
  • 00:36:49
    and the reason it's not so great is
  • 00:36:51
    because Moses slash the law said if
  • 00:36:55
    you're gonna be a priest you've got to
  • 00:36:57
    come from the tribe of Levi
  • 00:36:59
    Hebrews 8 4 is just recognizing that
  • 00:37:02
    that's what the law says that it has
  • 00:37:04
    Authority and its Authority is so
  • 00:37:07
    so strong on this sense that on Earth
  • 00:37:11
    Jesus can't be a priest because he's
  • 00:37:13
    from the wrong tribe
  • 00:37:15
    but not to worry because Jesus has 414
  • 00:37:19
    passed through the heavens as the great
  • 00:37:23
    high priest Hebrews 8 1 the point of
  • 00:37:25
    what we are saying is this we have this
  • 00:37:28
    kind of high priest he's the one who now
  • 00:37:30
    sits at the right hand of God in the
  • 00:37:33
    Heavenly Realms which of course Hebrews
  • 00:37:35
    1 is already discussed with Jesus being
  • 00:37:37
    invited with the sun being invited to
  • 00:37:40
    sit at God's right hand echoing Psalm
  • 00:37:42
    110. okay
  • 00:37:44
    no that brings us back to Hebrews 7 and
  • 00:37:47
    and this text that you've brought up
  • 00:37:48
    what is going on with this argument and
  • 00:37:51
    Melchizedek however one wants to
  • 00:37:54
    interpret Melchizedek and there are lots
  • 00:37:56
    of options out there Melchizedek is for
  • 00:37:58
    the author of Hebrews an example of a
  • 00:38:01
    legitimate priest of God most high
  • 00:38:05
    that's right out of Genesis 14.
  • 00:38:08
    priest of God most high
  • 00:38:11
    but what Melchizedek doesn't have
  • 00:38:14
    is a genealogy
  • 00:38:16
    right and he says this in chapter 7
  • 00:38:19
    verse 3 he is without father without
  • 00:38:22
    mother without genealogy
  • 00:38:25
    this is what the writer is picking up on
  • 00:38:28
    with Melchizedek how could you be a
  • 00:38:30
    legitimate priest of God without
  • 00:38:33
    genealogy and what's more as he goes on
  • 00:38:36
    to say
  • 00:38:37
    Melchizedek must be pretty amazing
  • 00:38:39
    because we all know how amazing Abraham
  • 00:38:42
    is right there's no diminishing of
  • 00:38:45
    Abraham here
  • 00:38:46
    Abraham is amazing and yet
  • 00:38:49
    you know it's Melchizedek who blesses
  • 00:38:52
    Abraham uh and Abraham does something
  • 00:38:54
    that you only do to the levitical
  • 00:38:57
    priests he tithes to Melchizedek so
  • 00:39:00
    here's not just someone that Genesis 14
  • 00:39:03
    says is legitimately a priest of God
  • 00:39:05
    most high he's a priest of God most high
  • 00:39:08
    whom even Abraham respected and we all
  • 00:39:11
    know how great Abraham is uh so there
  • 00:39:14
    again is that it's not an argument
  • 00:39:16
    against these Jewish things it's an
  • 00:39:18
    argument working with them and then on
  • 00:39:21
    top of that well actually Levi is a
  • 00:39:24
    descendant of Abraham so so Melchizedek
  • 00:39:27
    is a priest of God most high
  • 00:39:29
    legitimately even before Levi is ever
  • 00:39:32
    born
  • 00:39:33
    what is the author of Hebrews doing he
  • 00:39:36
    is finding another legitimate priesthood
  • 00:39:40
    in the cosmos
  • 00:39:43
    and arguing on Earth Jesus can't be a
  • 00:39:46
    priest why because Moses said he can't
  • 00:39:49
    be a priest
  • 00:39:51
    and I fully respect that Moses had the
  • 00:39:54
    authority to give the law and say he
  • 00:39:57
    can't be a priest
  • 00:39:59
    but what if there's another legitimate
  • 00:40:02
    priesthood and what if Jesus could
  • 00:40:05
    belong to that priesthood and what if
  • 00:40:08
    that priesthood has nothing to do with
  • 00:40:11
    genealogy
  • 00:40:12
    well then Jesus being in the tribe of
  • 00:40:15
    Judah is no longer something that
  • 00:40:18
    prevents him from being a high priest
  • 00:40:21
    it's just that he's not a high priest of
  • 00:40:24
    the levitical order
  • 00:40:26
    nor can he be because he comes from the
  • 00:40:29
    tribe of Judah now in the midst of that
  • 00:40:32
    argument I've argued that this is
  • 00:40:35
    exactly one of the ways that the writer
  • 00:40:37
    leans on the resurrection to make the
  • 00:40:40
    case again no matter how you think of
  • 00:40:43
    Melchizedek what the author finds in
  • 00:40:45
    Melchizedek is someone who is presented
  • 00:40:47
    in scripture as not dying
  • 00:40:50
    someone who is who who continues to live
  • 00:40:54
    and remain a priest of God most high and
  • 00:40:57
    it's exactly the fact Hebrews knows full
  • 00:41:00
    well that Jesus died I mean it's
  • 00:41:02
    actually in Hebrews 2 which I think is
  • 00:41:04
    an allusion to the Passover account the
  • 00:41:07
    author knows that Jesus died
  • 00:41:09
    so how can the author then say that
  • 00:41:12
    Jesus is a high priest who remains
  • 00:41:14
    forever
  • 00:41:15
    well it's precisely because Jesus arises
  • 00:41:19
    to an indestructible life he arises to a
  • 00:41:24
    different set of categories that qualify
  • 00:41:27
    him now for this different priesthood so
  • 00:41:30
    it's precisely in the resurrection that
  • 00:41:32
    the creaturely life of the Sun
  • 00:41:35
    is like the creaturely life of
  • 00:41:38
    Melchizedek and this becomes the way in
  • 00:41:40
    which Jesus can be qualified to be a
  • 00:41:43
    high priest
  • 00:41:45
    but not in the Earthly sphere and not
  • 00:41:48
    under the levitical strictures which
  • 00:41:51
    still apply on Earth he is a high priest
  • 00:41:55
    because he has this kind of Life which
  • 00:41:58
    allows him to enter the Heavenly
  • 00:42:00
    Tabernacle
  • 00:42:01
    and to pass through that structure and
  • 00:42:04
    enter the Heavenly holy of holies and
  • 00:42:07
    now present himself as an offering and
  • 00:42:10
    serve as a high priest who ministers
  • 00:42:12
    before God in that space whatever that
  • 00:42:16
    space whatever that space is whatever it
  • 00:42:19
    looks like however it functions Jesus
  • 00:42:21
    has gone there and that's where he's
  • 00:42:23
    high priest and that's where he serves
  • 00:42:25
    as high priest and that's why in Hebrews
  • 00:42:27
    7 25 the author will say that he is able
  • 00:42:32
    to save his people completely because he
  • 00:42:35
    always lives to intercede for them he is
  • 00:42:37
    doing his high Priestly Ministry now
  • 00:42:40
    before the father exactly along a model
  • 00:42:44
    of what happens in Leviticus 16 with the
  • 00:42:47
    high priest on the day of atonement who
  • 00:42:49
    goes in now what does that all mean then
  • 00:42:51
    for this question of the law in Hebrews
  • 00:42:53
    7 12. well there are two things that
  • 00:42:56
    that I think are going on here and
  • 00:42:58
    probably the most significant one is to
  • 00:43:00
    recognize that the the writer can use
  • 00:43:03
    this language of law in two different
  • 00:43:05
    ways when he's talking about the law
  • 00:43:07
    that is somehow changed what he's
  • 00:43:10
    talking about is the law that applies to
  • 00:43:12
    how you can be a legitimate priest
  • 00:43:15
    and the law that applies on Earth to how
  • 00:43:18
    you are a legitimate priest see Hebrews
  • 00:43:21
    8 4 is uh the law of Moses
  • 00:43:24
    but if Jesus has changed this location
  • 00:43:27
    and if he's able to do that not least
  • 00:43:30
    because of the Resurrection which gives
  • 00:43:31
    him a kind of life that looks in some
  • 00:43:34
    way like Melchizedek well then there are
  • 00:43:36
    a whole different set of categories that
  • 00:43:39
    apply that's the change that's happening
  • 00:43:41
    uh I think in Hebrews 7 12. he's there
  • 00:43:45
    talking about a specific notion of the
  • 00:43:48
    law that stipulates how you become a
  • 00:43:50
    priest
  • 00:43:52
    and on Earth it's genealogy
  • 00:43:55
    but in heaven it's not and proof that
  • 00:44:00
    there is a legitimate priesthood not
  • 00:44:01
    based on genealogy comes right out of
  • 00:44:04
    Jewish scripture itself in this figure
  • 00:44:06
    of Melchizedek
  • 00:44:08
    now he does back out and I think talk
  • 00:44:10
    more broadly about the law and and say
  • 00:44:13
    the law never actually was able to bring
  • 00:44:17
    people into God's Heavenly presence the
  • 00:44:20
    way Jesus can and in that sense I think
  • 00:44:23
    he's making an argument that again many
  • 00:44:25
    Jews I'm not saying that Jews of the
  • 00:44:27
    time would have just agreed with this
  • 00:44:29
    but there would be a sense in which
  • 00:44:31
    especially if this is a kind of
  • 00:44:32
    apocalyptic Jewish way of thinking what
  • 00:44:35
    the author is saying is that right now
  • 00:44:38
    you get access to something that's even
  • 00:44:40
    greater than what uh the people in
  • 00:44:44
    Jerusalem can get access to because
  • 00:44:46
    right now through Jesus opening the way
  • 00:44:49
    this is in Hebrews 10 in particular you
  • 00:44:52
    get to go into the Heavenly holy of
  • 00:44:54
    holies you get to approach the throne of
  • 00:44:58
    grace which is I think language that
  • 00:45:00
    Echoes the Ark of the Covenant in the
  • 00:45:03
    holy of holies in the Tabernacle boldly
  • 00:45:05
    you get to do that because of Jesus and
  • 00:45:09
    that's better okay it's not against the
  • 00:45:13
    Jewish stuff in Jerusalem but it is
  • 00:45:16
    better because you're going again this
  • 00:45:18
    is a place that Moses somehow saw but
  • 00:45:21
    that Jesus has actually entered and
  • 00:45:23
    what's more unlike Moses
  • 00:45:26
    Jesus gets to stay there
  • 00:45:29
    right he gets to sit at God's right hand
  • 00:45:32
    and now perform his high Priestly
  • 00:45:35
    Ministry
  • 00:45:36
    in perpetuity and that for for the
  • 00:45:40
    author of Hebrews that's better
  • 00:45:43
    I hope that answers the question
  • 00:45:45
    it answers it answers a lot of questions
  • 00:45:48
    I feel like for a lot of people when
  • 00:45:50
    they're reading Hebrews they're thinking
  • 00:45:52
    that's when Hebrews talks about going
  • 00:45:55
    into Heavenly places and offering
  • 00:45:57
    himself or offering blood that
  • 00:46:00
    that it's like a metaphor like yeah
  • 00:46:02
    that's right and it's really just like
  • 00:46:05
    he died for your sins that's right yeah
  • 00:46:08
    don't try to over uh don't overthink
  • 00:46:11
    whatever you do um don't overthink it
  • 00:46:13
    yeah whereas what you're saying is
  • 00:46:15
    actually the fact that Jesus came back
  • 00:46:20
    from the dead literally and then
  • 00:46:22
    literally entered into you know in
  • 00:46:25
    Jewish cosmology it would be like a an
  • 00:46:28
    actual heaven in which there's an actual
  • 00:46:30
    sort of throne room or Temple or
  • 00:46:32
    something like that and then that Jesus
  • 00:46:34
    is there and that that that aspect of
  • 00:46:39
    his ministry
  • 00:46:42
    actually when talking about atonement we
  • 00:46:45
    need to be looking more at that and not
  • 00:46:48
    so much just that he died would that be
  • 00:46:51
    accurate to say yeah that's exactly
  • 00:46:53
    right and uh I think in a nutshell the
  • 00:46:56
    way you just put it is one of the
  • 00:46:58
    biggest reasons why many people have not
  • 00:47:01
    seen the ways in which Jesus
  • 00:47:03
    resurrection in Hebrews contributes to
  • 00:47:05
    the argument because a bodily
  • 00:47:08
    Resurrection a discrete event that is
  • 00:47:10
    distinct from the death as opposed to a
  • 00:47:13
    notion of Resurrection as just itself
  • 00:47:15
    spiritual Ascent into God's Heavenly
  • 00:47:17
    presence right that suddenly makes it
  • 00:47:21
    very difficult to have a simple metaphor
  • 00:47:25
    approach because the resurrection
  • 00:47:27
    creates a a causal logical and temporal
  • 00:47:32
    gap between Jesus dying on the cross
  • 00:47:35
    and Jesus then offering himself to the
  • 00:47:38
    Father in heaven
  • 00:47:41
    if you put Resurrection in the metaphor
  • 00:47:44
    suddenly begins to fall apart
  • 00:47:46
    is precisely by not having the
  • 00:47:48
    resurrection or by redefining
  • 00:47:51
    Resurrection in terms of heavenly Ascent
  • 00:47:53
    the spirit leaving the body is precisely
  • 00:47:56
    by doing that that you can keep together
  • 00:47:58
    much more closely the crucifixion with
  • 00:48:02
    Jesus presentation of himself as an
  • 00:48:05
    offering now the throw into the mix then
  • 00:48:07
    certain misunderstandings that we today
  • 00:48:09
    have about sacrifice like you kill
  • 00:48:12
    animals on the altar well if you just
  • 00:48:15
    know that you kill in levitical
  • 00:48:16
    sacrifice you take an animal to the
  • 00:48:18
    outer altar you kill it on the Altar and
  • 00:48:21
    then you take the blood if you do into
  • 00:48:23
    the Tabernacle you will find Hebrews
  • 00:48:25
    commentators who who argue that this is
  • 00:48:28
    what Hebrews is thinking
  • 00:48:30
    well there's a fundamental problem with
  • 00:48:32
    this argument and it's that no animals
  • 00:48:35
    are ever killed on the Jewish altar
  • 00:48:38
    yeah like this is just a
  • 00:48:40
    misunderstanding that most of us have
  • 00:48:42
    but if you actually look at Leviticus it
  • 00:48:44
    is Crystal Clear
  • 00:48:46
    Leviticus tells you in certain cases
  • 00:48:48
    that you kill the animal in the
  • 00:48:50
    forecourt you know or you kill it uh in
  • 00:48:53
    a space a special space to the north
  • 00:48:55
    side of the altar
  • 00:48:57
    um yeah and what's more uh in Leviticus
  • 00:49:00
    at least in the masoretic text it's the
  • 00:49:02
    offer who typically kills who kills many
  • 00:49:05
    of the at least the individual
  • 00:49:06
    sacrifices but only the priest
  • 00:49:10
    can approach the altar
  • 00:49:12
    but so if the offer kills the animal but
  • 00:49:15
    only a priest can approach the altar
  • 00:49:17
    well you can't be killing the animal on
  • 00:49:19
    the Altar and then the third thing is
  • 00:49:21
    there's always a fire burning on the
  • 00:49:24
    outer Altar and it's just not I mean try
  • 00:49:28
    not to think too hard about like how
  • 00:49:30
    would you put a live animal in the midst
  • 00:49:32
    of the fire yeah slit its throat collect
  • 00:49:35
    its blood you're reaching into the FI it
  • 00:49:37
    doesn't make any sense at all no and yet
  • 00:49:39
    we all assume that that's what happens
  • 00:49:42
    okay now if Hebrews knows that that's
  • 00:49:45
    not how sacrifice Works according to the
  • 00:49:48
    levitical pattern the confusion between
  • 00:49:50
    the cross and the altar that we assume
  • 00:49:53
    is not going to be a natural thing for a
  • 00:49:55
    second temple Jew to assume they're not
  • 00:49:58
    going to just assume that you that the
  • 00:50:00
    cross must be the altar because that's
  • 00:50:01
    where Jesus died
  • 00:50:03
    they're not going to assume that you
  • 00:50:04
    kill things on the altar they're gonna
  • 00:50:06
    know that you don't kill things on the
  • 00:50:08
    altar rather wind sacrifice involves
  • 00:50:11
    killing at all you kill it away from the
  • 00:50:13
    Altar and then a priest brings it to the
  • 00:50:16
    altar to offer it to God
  • 00:50:19
    it's when you offer it to God that then
  • 00:50:23
    compare in Hebrew you know but atonement
  • 00:50:26
    ideas can happen and then especially on
  • 00:50:29
    one time a year the day of atonement
  • 00:50:31
    Leviticus 16.
  • 00:50:33
    the animals are slaughtered their blood
  • 00:50:37
    is then taken by the high priest into
  • 00:50:40
    the holy of holies where it is offered
  • 00:50:44
    to God Hebrews says this explicitly in
  • 00:50:48
    Hebrews 9 verse 7.
  • 00:50:50
    so Hebrews knows how sacrifice works and
  • 00:50:53
    Hebrews knows how the day of atonement
  • 00:50:55
    works and you know there is no killing
  • 00:50:58
    of the animal on the altar uh and the
  • 00:51:00
    focal point moreover is not on the
  • 00:51:02
    killing of the animal but on bringing
  • 00:51:05
    the elements of the animal into God's
  • 00:51:08
    presence and so you know what I would
  • 00:51:11
    want to argue on that point then is that
  • 00:51:12
    this is exactly what the Ascension is
  • 00:51:15
    doing and this is exactly again why the
  • 00:51:18
    metaphor that you talked about set up
  • 00:51:21
    this question doesn't work for Hebrews
  • 00:51:23
    because the death is not metaphorically
  • 00:51:26
    read as the offering it's rather the
  • 00:51:30
    Ascension when Jesus enters the very
  • 00:51:32
    place that the Jewish high priest
  • 00:51:33
    entered to offer the blood as a
  • 00:51:36
    sacrifice Jesus does that when he
  • 00:51:39
    ascends into the Heavenly Tabernacle and
  • 00:51:42
    then goes into the Heavenly holy of
  • 00:51:44
    holies and offers himself
  • 00:51:47
    if the bodily Resurrection is in that
  • 00:51:50
    mix
  • 00:51:51
    then there's no way to read this as some
  • 00:51:54
    kind of simple metaphor to describe the
  • 00:51:57
    cross as the self-offering it's
  • 00:51:59
    precisely just like the high priest on
  • 00:52:01
    the day of atonement Leviticus is
  • 00:52:03
    precisely the direction of entering
  • 00:52:06
    God's presence
  • 00:52:07
    that's where Jesus offers himself
  • 00:52:10
    wow
  • 00:52:11
    good stuff
  • 00:52:13
    well I have about 10 more questions
  • 00:52:15
    which means we're we're probably going
  • 00:52:17
    to have to pester you to come back for a
  • 00:52:19
    future episode I think so I think that's
  • 00:52:21
    what's going to happen but but before
  • 00:52:23
    before we sign off I thought I'd give
  • 00:52:25
    you the chance to um to tell us a little
  • 00:52:27
    bit about what you're working on now
  • 00:52:28
    your book rethinking the atonement came
  • 00:52:30
    out last year from Baker academic and
  • 00:52:32
    cloudy Grand Rapids Michigan but what's
  • 00:52:35
    next for David Moffett
  • 00:52:37
    um so I'm currently working on a a book
  • 00:52:40
    that really tries to get into the
  • 00:52:42
    nitty-gritty detail of sacrifice and it
  • 00:52:45
    doesn't just look at Leviticus it looks
  • 00:52:48
    at the way that Leviticus is being
  • 00:52:49
    interpreted in second temple Jewish
  • 00:52:53
    texts and practice insofar as we can get
  • 00:52:56
    access to this
  • 00:52:57
    um it might also dabble in some sort of
  • 00:53:01
    Hellenistic or crack a Roman sacrificial
  • 00:53:03
    ideas as well because these new
  • 00:53:05
    testament texts eventually very quickly
  • 00:53:08
    are going to be read primarily by
  • 00:53:10
    Gentiles and they're not going to have
  • 00:53:12
    the same kinds of categories so what
  • 00:53:15
    sorts of things are they bringing as
  • 00:53:16
    they imagine sacrifice it's very
  • 00:53:18
    different in many respects from what a
  • 00:53:21
    Jewish reader who had been to the temple
  • 00:53:23
    and seen sacrifice happen assuming that
  • 00:53:26
    kind of reader right they would
  • 00:53:27
    understand sacrifice in a very different
  • 00:53:29
    way what would people who knew the texts
  • 00:53:33
    and maybe had been to Jerusalem and seen
  • 00:53:35
    it happen what are they most likely to
  • 00:53:37
    have assumed would be going on but then
  • 00:53:40
    the point would be
  • 00:53:41
    to then go to the New Testament and ask
  • 00:53:45
    okay do we see places in the New
  • 00:53:48
    Testament were some of these ideas which
  • 00:53:51
    don't imagine that at the temple you
  • 00:53:54
    killed animals on the Altar for example
  • 00:53:56
    right which actually focus more on
  • 00:53:58
    bringing a gift into the presence of God
  • 00:54:01
    by actually taking it into his house are
  • 00:54:04
    are there places where early other early
  • 00:54:07
    Christian texts in addition to Hebrews
  • 00:54:09
    might show evidence that they're
  • 00:54:12
    thinking in similar ways but I do think
  • 00:54:14
    there's actually more in the New
  • 00:54:16
    Testament that suggests that early
  • 00:54:19
    Christians thought seriously about the
  • 00:54:23
    Ascension of Jesus
  • 00:54:24
    as his bringing his offering into God's
  • 00:54:28
    house into the Heavenly Temple and
  • 00:54:32
    bringing it before God's presence that
  • 00:54:35
    is Into The Heavenly throne room and
  • 00:54:38
    then of course you know sitting at God's
  • 00:54:40
    right hand
  • 00:54:41
    will look Beyond Hebrews but hopefully
  • 00:54:44
    we'll establish
  • 00:54:45
    uh I hope with some Authority that we
  • 00:54:49
    really don't understand sacrifice and
  • 00:54:51
    that that we're just not right if we
  • 00:54:53
    assume that it's about killing animals
  • 00:54:55
    on an altar and that somehow the animal
  • 00:54:58
    was burying your sin and these sorts of
  • 00:55:02
    Concepts part of what I'd want to argue
  • 00:55:04
    is that there's way more going on at
  • 00:55:07
    various points in the story of Jesus
  • 00:55:10
    Life Death Resurrection Ascension then
  • 00:55:13
    just sacrifice okay but insofar as we
  • 00:55:16
    want to think about sacrifice it's a
  • 00:55:19
    mistake to conflate or confuse a lot of
  • 00:55:22
    some of these other ideas with what's
  • 00:55:24
    going on in sacrificial models of the
  • 00:55:27
    particular work that Jesus does to save
  • 00:55:30
    his people from their sins absolutely
  • 00:55:32
    well I can't wait to read that one thank
  • 00:55:35
    you so much this has just been a truly
  • 00:55:37
    enlightening and really helpful
  • 00:55:40
    conversation not just for us but for our
  • 00:55:43
    listeners I think really bringing
  • 00:55:44
    something new to consider and can't wait
  • 00:55:46
    to read upcoming works from you thank
  • 00:55:49
    you yeah well it's it's been a delight
  • 00:55:52
    uh to have this conversation so we are
  • 00:55:54
    so glad to have you here thank you
  • 00:55:56
    absolutely yeah
  • 00:56:01
    thank you
  • 00:56:03
    foreign
  • 00:56:04
    [Music]
  • 00:56:08
    wow well what a privilege to be able to
  • 00:56:10
    hear directly from Dr moffatt about all
  • 00:56:13
    these themes in his book that are so
  • 00:56:15
    vital to understanding the real work of
  • 00:56:18
    the Messiah and how that impacts our
  • 00:56:20
    perspective on our faith Jacob any
  • 00:56:23
    takeaways oh it's always it's always a
  • 00:56:25
    pleasure and like a thrill to find some
  • 00:56:28
    a member of the academy a PhD whose
  • 00:56:32
    interpretations resonate so clearly and
  • 00:56:34
    so deeply with the with our uh our post
  • 00:56:38
    supersessionist view of the New
  • 00:56:40
    Testament and to be able to be able to
  • 00:56:43
    have him here all the way from Scotland
  • 00:56:45
    without having to pay however however
  • 00:56:47
    much it costs to go to Saint Andrews
  • 00:56:49
    myself and and uh undertake an education
  • 00:56:53
    there you know it's a privilege that I'm
  • 00:56:56
    very happy to share with our listeners
  • 00:56:57
    today
  • 00:56:58
    and here I couldn't agree more and I'm
  • 00:57:00
    I'm looking forward to getting him in
  • 00:57:02
    here for another conversation oh yeah
  • 00:57:03
    sometime soon for sure well until then
  • 00:57:06
    we've got lots of more ground to cover
  • 00:57:08
    with this podcast so I hope all of our
  • 00:57:10
    listeners will keep tuning in and don't
  • 00:57:13
    forget to subscribe share with your
  • 00:57:15
    friends and your family until next time
  • 00:57:18
    I'm Stephanie Hammond and I'm Jacob
  • 00:57:20
    fronzak
  • 00:57:22
    shalom
  • 00:57:24
    [Music]
  • 00:57:34
    [Music]
  • 00:57:41
    [Music]
Tags
  • atonement
  • Jesus
  • resurrection
  • Hebrews
  • Christian theology
  • sacrifice
  • priesthood
  • New Testament
  • Leviticus
  • post-supersessionism