00:00:00
my experience of wedding in Rajasthan
00:00:03
from where I came I remember when I was
00:00:05
a child uh there was a certain phone
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call um during my my mama's wedding the
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phone call said that the other person
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the call
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that so the are not allowed to sit on
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the horse we just look at these weddings
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and you know love romance uncritically
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without knowing that obviously there's a
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beauty in these things but there is also
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lot of Terror which is
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[Music]
00:00:37
unexplored I'm Lisa mangaldas and this
00:00:40
is love matters and today we're going to
00:00:42
be talking about marriage in India while
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weddings are often glorified in pop
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culture and the public imagination as
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the ultimate Grand romantic event is
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marriage not in fact A system that
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simply upholds existing social
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hierarchies is there even any SP Spas
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for love amidst this when arranged
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marriage Remains the omnipresent way of
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going about things is love simply a
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delusion in an endogamous Society that's
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what we're going to be discussing with
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my guest anurag minus Verma after all he
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has once said that same cast different
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gotra Remains the magic formula for love
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in this country anurag is the most
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incisive voice on cast Society pop
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culture and more he has a cultish fan
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base among which I count myself and his
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unique voice comes through in his reals
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his podcast his writing so anarak thanks
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so much for being here and one of the
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things I love about your work is that
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not only does it hold a mirror to the
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injustices and the cruelties and the
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loneliness of life in society but also
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to Asia Ridiculousness and absurdity uh
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so I'm really looking forward to
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unpacking all of this with you but I
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want to start with a question I'm sure
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you're tired of answering I'm going to
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ask ask you anyway why is your name
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anurag minus Verma what's the story
00:02:05
thank you thank you Lisa for this
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wonderful introduction uh story behind
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my name anurag minusa so my name is just
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anurag I mean on the official documents
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on passport Adar everywhere it's just
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anurag so there is no surname um but
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when I joined Facebook in 2011 so I
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there was there was no option of putting
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that last name last name column empty
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so out of just as a pun on on the cast I
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wrote it as anurag minus Vera because
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some people in my family use Verma
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surname so that I wrote In 2011 and uh
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people liked it and you know I got five
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six likes because of that and I felt
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relevant so I I continued um using that
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as a as a pseudonym for whatever I do
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now um and then it has a certain music
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to it as well as opposed to un you know
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so I'm continuing doing it yeah thank
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you for sharing that all right let's
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Dive Right In um to the the murky Waters
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we're going to be treading today um I
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want to just throw some stats out there
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you know uh only 5% of marriages in
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India can be counted as intercast
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93% of marriages are
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arranged um Dr edar in the inaugural
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edition of Muk Nayak wrote that Hindu
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Society is like a tower where each gas
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is a lotted one floor and the important
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thing to note in this is that there is
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no staircase in this Tower so the floor
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on which you are born is the flaw on
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which you die that was in
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1920 over 100 years ago but not much has
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changed yeah
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because especially I mean if you we talk
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about love then the whole idea of Love
00:03:51
is very complicated and complex and
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there are many philosophers and the
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writer who try to understand the meaning
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of love so the pr has said a lot of
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about love and then then there are um
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you know pop cultural song What is love
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baby don't hurt me and India people
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started make you know creating these
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lyrics
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muhab and whatnot so the idea of the
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love is is very complex and everybody's
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trying to understand what exact the love
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means so in India um I always think love
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as a as a freelance activity um for
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example if you are in the college then
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there is a certain kind of a dreamy
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State dreamy mindset in that uh in that
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Madness of the youth your mindset is
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inspired by Pink Floyd and the doors and
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you listen to these songs and you know
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you you think of screwing the rules of
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the society and everything and um by the
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time you are in the final year of the
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college and you are about to um go out
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in the in the real world or in the
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society then your love which you have
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formed also you know evaporates or I
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have seen um you know some of the best
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lovers who were um like the idol for the
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new ASP parents of the romance and they
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were considered as like they are the
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couple but after the college got over
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they had to separate because they have
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to get into the real world where the
00:05:09
rules of the love and are are different
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because they have to present their love
00:05:13
to their family as well and then the
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family has um five 5,000 filters in
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their mind and they have to judge
00:05:21
whether that love is suitable for you or
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not so in that
00:05:25
scenario um sometime you also do that
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preemptive surgical strike on your
00:05:31
romance in in the college time because
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you know what is going to happen uh when
00:05:36
you when you uh move into the real world
00:05:38
which which operates very differently so
00:05:41
these lover then finally realize that uh
00:05:44
this beautiful River of the love goes
00:05:46
through the seage of the society
00:05:49
so you know we we have these these
00:05:51
filters like gotra cast
00:05:55
subcast um kundali mang uh color Dar so
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these things operates and and and it's
00:06:04
not just like the even among the upper
00:06:08
cast it it is very difficult to
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intermarry so uh like one of my friend
00:06:14
is very tensed these days and his
00:06:16
problem is that he comes from ban
00:06:18
Community which is the upper cast
00:06:19
community and the girl is from Brahman
00:06:21
Community which is also upper cast
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community and uh he secretly C did a
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court marriage with her without letting
00:06:30
the parents because parent will be very
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violent and uh they will be very angry
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when when they come to know that uh
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their daughter has this intercast
00:06:38
marriage so this whole idea of the cast
00:06:42
doesn't like necessarily is among upper
00:06:45
and soal upper and lower but within a
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certain kind of community that is
00:06:49
considered upper so the the marriage in
00:06:52
in that sense marriage and love are very
00:06:55
tightly um controlled by the by the uh
00:06:58
Norms of the society and it remains like
00:07:01
that even today yeah I mean just
00:07:03
building on some of these filters you
00:07:06
mentioned there was some studies of um
00:07:09
matrimonial um entries in the newspapers
00:07:12
and things and you know it was found
00:07:15
that a
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groom with no
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education would be more likely to be
00:07:21
contacted from a same cast bride then
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she would contact a man from a different
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cast with a master's degree right right
00:07:29
and then we were talking about color I
00:07:31
mean this whole sentence just sounds so
00:07:32
absurd just me saying it uh a man was
00:07:35
willing to sacrifice Three Shades of
00:07:38
skin tone to marry within his own cast
00:07:42
you know and it's just it is when you
00:07:45
just say this out loud it sounds so
00:07:47
ridiculous and yet it is how 95% of the
00:07:52
country is operating right and marriage
00:07:53
is not even a choice it's an
00:07:55
inevitability you have to get married
00:07:57
and this is who you'll get married to
00:07:59
and and um what was also really
00:08:02
interesting to me was that it's not the
00:08:04
education level of the bride and the
00:08:06
groom that was found to have a
00:08:08
correlation with likelihood of being
00:08:10
open to an intercast Union it was the
00:08:12
education level of the parents and more
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specifically the education of the mother
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of the
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groom that was an indicator of
00:08:22
likelihood to be open to an intercast
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relationship a very educated mother of
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the boy was the only time you would see
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the an openness to considering um
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marrying outside of One's Own cast and I
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found that all very interesting you know
00:08:37
that because you see all these sort of
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woke young people who claim to be
00:08:40
castless and what you were saying that
00:08:42
you you know um preemptively end your
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love affairs um in order to tow the line
00:08:48
uh and this is is what's happening so
00:08:51
what do you make of some of this you
00:08:53
know this whole idea of wokeness and
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everything and that whole idea that I I
00:08:57
I think therefore I am when you are
00:09:00
saying in the Indian context or I free
00:09:02
freedom of speech freedom of thought I'm
00:09:05
a free
00:09:06
individual these ideas doesn't I mean
00:09:10
itime find it comical in the when when
00:09:12
we are discussing it from the Indian
00:09:14
Society point of view because these
00:09:16
ideas work in an society which is more
00:09:18
of an individual based society but our
00:09:21
society is a community based society so
00:09:24
we are not really free and we can't be
00:09:26
free from so many judgments of the
00:09:29
people and what our relative things
00:09:31
about us what our parents are planning
00:09:33
for us and everything happened within a
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particular kind of a community setup so
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uh so this is why these these people who
00:09:42
otherwise pretend to be very woke very
00:09:45
Progressive and everything but if you
00:09:47
dig deeper and in in their kind of a
00:09:49
lifestyle then you'll realize a certain
00:09:52
kind of uh regressive traditional kind
00:09:55
of uh lifestyle they eventually follow
00:09:58
this idea of a match made in heaven or
00:10:00
whatever is is is a delusion right I
00:10:03
mean if we're looking at skin color
00:10:06
height this that already that's bad
00:10:08
enough but the most dominant filter of
00:10:10
all is cast and so where is love in any
00:10:13
of this right and also why is it still
00:10:16
this way with all this wokeness people
00:10:18
claiming to be castless blah blah blah
00:10:20
actually there's we we're Maring exactly
00:10:22
how our great grandparents grandparents
00:10:24
exactly like that exactly like that and
00:10:27
also after applying 5000 and filter we
00:10:30
are left with five six options and we
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choose among U we choose one option
00:10:35
among them and we call it love so I was
00:10:38
planning to write a book at one point of
00:10:40
a time which was titled love is
00:10:41
basically lack lack of options so we
00:10:45
given so little option and we choose one
00:10:48
partner from that and that to after
00:10:50
matching um these these kind of filters
00:10:53
and uh so that's why I'm quite surprised
00:10:56
when people said that uh found my soul
00:10:59
soulmate match was made in heaven and
00:11:01
something like that no it was not made
00:11:03
in heaven like it was like there was so
00:11:05
many filters that that were there
00:11:08
Financial aspect and everything which
00:11:10
which I don't mind because when you are
00:11:12
marrying someone then you have to think
00:11:13
about lot of things it can't be a dreamy
00:11:16
love thing kind of a thing like in the
00:11:18
Europe that whole um idea of romance
00:11:20
started from that Romanticism movement
00:11:22
in 1800 1850 so where they gave the
00:11:26
priority to the feeling and the
00:11:27
intuition and that whole idea of
00:11:29
dreaminess of love then the planning and
00:11:31
everything but now right now we are
00:11:33
living in a capitalistic and
00:11:35
consumeristic Society so we have to
00:11:38
think through lot of arrangement and
00:11:40
everything while we are planning to um
00:11:42
live with someone so that I understand
00:11:44
that uh it can't be just like two people
00:11:47
are I mean but but but that choices of
00:11:49
choosing should be given to two
00:11:51
individuals that's the problem but
00:11:53
otherwise I can understand they looking
00:11:54
at the financial stability of each other
00:11:56
and everything because then you have to
00:11:57
manage your you know C of and rent and
00:12:00
everything so that you have to take into
00:12:02
consideration practical considerations
00:12:04
for sure but when you think about the
00:12:05
history of marriage um I mean even
00:12:08
Romanticism is relatively more recent it
00:12:10
was a it was an economic Arrangement
00:12:13
right primarily you have cows I have
00:12:15
goats etc etc and it was deeply uh
00:12:19
oppressive to women particularly right
00:12:21
you like property basically being traded
00:12:23
between fathers and husb still like it
00:12:25
is still like that um exactly it's still
00:12:28
like that and and what I find really
00:12:31
difficult to wrap my head around is that
00:12:33
on the one hand there's people who are
00:12:35
so denied agency by their families that
00:12:38
they are aware that this is an
00:12:39
oppressive situation but they have no
00:12:41
way out okay so it's like now what do I
00:12:44
do they're not deluding themselves into
00:12:46
believing they have agency and this is
00:12:48
great it's like you know like
00:12:51
unfortunately I am it's a too great a
00:12:54
cost for me to um kind of resist this
00:12:57
right I might risk my life if I might
00:12:59
risk my livelihood whatever and so now
00:13:02
this is what I'm faced with but I think
00:13:03
what's really difficult for me to wrap
00:13:05
my head around is I see a lot of people
00:13:07
this tends to be these B liberal people
00:13:09
who are like oh but this is wonderful
00:13:11
you know now my husband and I both keep
00:13:13
kach or like oh Priyanka Chopra now is
00:13:16
the brand ambassador for bulgari's
00:13:18
Mongol Sutra and she goes you know today
00:13:20
a bride can smash the patriarchy by
00:13:22
buying a Bulgari mongal Sutra and for me
00:13:25
it's like how are we you know you're so
00:13:29
um you're buying into this delusion
00:13:31
where you don't even seem to see you're
00:13:33
repackaging the patriarchy and the
00:13:35
castism and all of these things that you
00:13:37
claim to be you know uh hellbent on
00:13:41
advocating against in your Instagram
00:13:42
activism or whatever um and suddenly
00:13:45
it's more palatable for you or something
00:13:47
I I don't it's just very difficult the
00:13:49
the dissonance around that is difficult
00:13:50
for me to wrap my head around uh
00:13:53
basically that if in the consumer
00:13:54
culture that is also kind of a guilt of
00:13:57
I mean in inside you know that inside
00:14:00
your psyche that you know that whatever
00:14:02
this you're doing is not correct it is
00:14:04
not something which is Progressive do
00:14:06
they know that though some people I
00:14:08
think have that sense what is wrong and
00:14:10
what is right I I think so at least I
00:14:12
believe like internally they have but
00:14:15
there are so many layers around them
00:14:17
societal layers that they have to
00:14:19
navigate through it so in the
00:14:20
consumeristic society um there's a guilt
00:14:24
of of consumption so um that that whole
00:14:27
idea of how to bring in the ethical idea
00:14:31
into it so that's why you you see this
00:14:33
like you will not you know do the Mangal
00:14:38
M like I'll keep the fast for K you
00:14:41
don't have to keep the fast for K so
00:14:43
that guilt is somehow comp compensated
00:14:45
compensated through through these kind
00:14:47
of action it's like you're going to a
00:14:50
Starbucks like it's a ZX very famous
00:14:53
thing that you go go to a Starbucks and
00:14:55
you are worried that um whatever I'm
00:14:58
consuming is unethical because maybe
00:15:00
these beans are sourced from um some
00:15:02
farmers in the Africa who who were
00:15:05
tortured while making it so they said no
00:15:07
these are ethically sourced Bean and the
00:15:09
price of ethical ethicalness is also
00:15:12
included in that coffee so now it's like
00:15:15
the $4 coffee is $6 coffee if you want
00:15:17
ethical coffee so so that is combined
00:15:20
within that that whole package so
00:15:22
similarly in this this situation also
00:15:24
you know you look some some some ways to
00:15:26
get out of that that uh kind of a guilt
00:15:29
but at the end this is all very
00:15:31
performative uh things for example
00:15:33
recently I saw if if you talk about big
00:15:36
fat weddings that happens in India so a
00:15:39
couple
00:15:41
reconstructed a scene from jod abbar
00:15:43
film so they it was a lavish wedding and
00:15:47
everything they reconstructed the whole
00:15:49
scene how the Jodha will come how the
00:15:51
Akbar will come and you know the
00:15:53
elephants and everything it was a very
00:15:55
expensive um wedding that was obviously
00:15:59
um made for in Instagram and for for
00:16:02
that engagement and everything but uh if
00:16:05
if you look in the real if if they
00:16:08
wanted to create that jodar scene then
00:16:12
it should have been between a Hindu and
00:16:14
Muslim but can you do that in the
00:16:16
Contemporary setting it would be called
00:16:18
as love Jihad and whatnot so you are
00:16:21
just picking up some elements of it and
00:16:23
not going to the root uh root uh issue
00:16:27
and uh obviously there is as you said
00:16:29
that uh one of the problem is that where
00:16:32
will you go if if your parents are not
00:16:35
allowing it so that that's a problem
00:16:36
even I don't know the answer to it
00:16:38
because uh although I also think that
00:16:40
you have to um like the pop culture and
00:16:43
everything's teaches all about the
00:16:45
family you know whatever they are saying
00:16:47
is correct and everything but I I think
00:16:49
you have to negotiate and also Rebel and
00:16:52
try your best to make them understand
00:16:54
certain things but although it's very
00:16:55
difficult because they are very most of
00:16:57
the parents are very rigid in in their
00:16:58
viewpoints but it's your duty to change
00:17:01
the things to how much possible it it it
00:17:04
can be for you at least so if we are not
00:17:06
doing it and we are just um subservient
00:17:10
to the wisdom of the old people then we
00:17:13
are going to you know the next
00:17:15
generation will be also like that which
00:17:17
is the thing even we uh think a lot
00:17:19
about these technology modern
00:17:21
Technologies like they are dating apps
00:17:23
there are Ai and everything and then we
00:17:25
think that we are progressing because
00:17:26
there are apps and everything but the
00:17:29
technology of anything also represent
00:17:32
the society uh both things are connected
00:17:35
so it's not like the technology will
00:17:36
build a world which is very different
00:17:38
Island than how our society functions so
00:17:43
uh so yeah these these these things are
00:17:47
somehow connected so this is the reason
00:17:49
why I don't think dating app are some
00:17:50
kind of a revolution or something or
00:17:52
they are changing the um habit of
00:17:55
romance or habit of marriage in India I
00:17:58
think same kind of people with same kind
00:18:00
of bases um will also come on the dating
00:18:03
app so last last last day I was watching
00:18:06
a story of one of my friend so she
00:18:08
posted some some of the screenshot the
00:18:11
guy um so there's a question on some
00:18:13
apps like you shouldn't date me if then
00:18:17
he wrote If you are having a belly
00:18:20
fat you may think that it's a expensive
00:18:23
app and everything he's a premium member
00:18:26
and everything but his his thinking is
00:18:29
same how how uh it it it is in the real
00:18:33
life so so that's why the technological
00:18:36
progression should also be understood a
00:18:39
little more closely that are they
00:18:42
something new or something different I I
00:18:44
do want to just um sort of hop on this
00:18:46
point a bit longer of um not only do
00:18:50
existing biases continue to be
00:18:53
perpetuated what I find very Insidious
00:18:56
is that they they're being rep packaged
00:18:58
as benign as some oh it's preference you
00:19:01
know these are my preferences I'm not
00:19:04
casst I'm not uh colorist these are just
00:19:07
my preference I can't control who I'm
00:19:08
attracted to you know or um oh no no of
00:19:12
course I would be open to anyone but
00:19:14
look at us in India your social group
00:19:17
your school your college your job your
00:19:20
the people the people in your sphere of
00:19:22
interaction are typically extremely
00:19:24
homogeneous so there's already a chy
00:19:27
that is done it's work before you're
00:19:30
even thinking about who you can be
00:19:31
friends with your available pool is
00:19:34
already filtered right I think it's very
00:19:36
good to be aware of your own bises your
00:19:41
own thought process why it is shaped up
00:19:44
like that and then maybe you can free
00:19:46
from that b bises so the choices you are
00:19:48
making maybe a little more real a little
00:19:52
more you uh a little more personal but
00:19:56
at the moment these we also don't
00:19:59
realize that most of these choices are
00:20:01
made because of the conditioning
00:20:02
provided to us through the society or
00:20:05
our surrounding or by our parents so how
00:20:08
to break free from it and and and then
00:20:10
choose whatever who whoever you want to
00:20:12
choose so that is that whole um idea is
00:20:16
is very necessary in this this this
00:20:18
angle so which is which is missing so
00:20:20
main point is this that you become aware
00:20:22
first and you become aware of these
00:20:24
whole biases and then you choose who
00:20:26
whoever you want to choose but at the
00:20:28
moment you are just becoming a clone of
00:20:30
your own um you know surroundings and
00:20:34
and and it's it's not just about
00:20:36
changing Society or anything it's just
00:20:37
not fun to be very you know just
00:20:40
mingling in people who who are like you
00:20:43
or around you I think as a human being
00:20:46
you have to explore more and what
00:20:47
whatever you have so which which is
00:20:50
missing because we are extremely
00:20:52
segregated
00:20:53
people there's also Community obviously
00:20:57
but there's also extreme form of
00:20:59
segregation and nobody's allowed to jump
00:21:01
into other um other other part so that
00:21:05
is there I mean attraction and
00:21:07
everything can happen obviously so this
00:21:09
is why on dating apps you can get
00:21:11
attracted to anybody and uh dating
00:21:15
mostly are for short-term things these
00:21:19
are not the long-term things and so um
00:21:22
people get attracted and you know meet
00:21:24
meet each other uh which is very
00:21:26
different from how um shadi.com or these
00:21:30
kind of app works so that's why I say
00:21:32
say that shadi.com is basically Tinder
00:21:35
with ganga jel there is a sansari thing
00:21:37
attached to that also we have a value
00:21:39
judgment in how we're socially
00:21:41
conditioned to see which type of
00:21:44
relationship is legitimate and valuable
00:21:46
so somehow a shortterm or casual or just
00:21:50
physical relationship is you know not in
00:21:53
the sort of um upper echelons of
00:21:56
respectability or
00:21:59
how we relationship so this idea
00:22:02
unfortunately with you know when women
00:22:04
are socialized to see um how they should
00:22:07
navigate sexuality and romance there's
00:22:10
this value on your inexperience right
00:22:12
there's this value on your Purity
00:22:15
innocence Chastity Etc as if you must
00:22:18
save yourself for this one person that's
00:22:20
the messaging you get otherwise you're
00:22:21
or whatever right um so there's
00:22:24
that then there's this idea anyway for
00:22:26
all genders also that casual and
00:22:28
temporary and physical is somehow n and
00:22:33
Shadi and permanent is and
00:22:35
love is you know so even if we're
00:22:38
willing to be more experimental in the
00:22:40
temporary or more um informal sort of
00:22:45
aspects of our uh romantic lives don't
00:22:48
that isn't there an inbuilt hierarchy
00:22:50
that is a bit dehumanizing I mean
00:22:51
personally I don't think that temporary
00:22:53
is less valuable I mean I don't ever
00:22:55
want to get married so you know my
00:22:57
temporary your casual or whatever I
00:22:59
think even a one night stand can be
00:23:00
quite a valuable event if it is as such
00:23:03
it can also be whatever forgettable
00:23:05
whatever but I I don't think time and
00:23:07
permanence and is in my books at least
00:23:09
how I attribute value to the people in
00:23:12
my life but Society does right and many
00:23:15
people are kind of navigating that world
00:23:17
where there'll be like you know some
00:23:18
people you're okay to hook up with but
00:23:20
this is not I would never introduce my
00:23:22
parents I would never mind and isn't
00:23:24
that like so that's why I said it's
00:23:26
still considered as a activity deep in
00:23:29
your psyche and uh or in the beginning I
00:23:33
said that we love someone that you have
00:23:34
to present that love to their your your
00:23:37
family and parents so some so similar
00:23:40
things these things are considered as
00:23:42
time pass kind of a thing by most of the
00:23:44
most of the people or it's just another
00:23:47
form of uh entertainment in this in this
00:23:52
um whole neoliberal world kind of kind
00:23:54
of a thing so there is no
00:23:56
seriousness like attached to it as
00:23:59
compared to a seriousness that
00:24:03
like that kind of seriousness is
00:24:05
considered as a very pure thing and
00:24:07
obviously the Purity virginity the kka
00:24:11
system thrives on the um purity of the
00:24:14
women like the women has to be pure and
00:24:17
they like other other people can't
00:24:19
mingle so that the whole basis of the
00:24:21
whole cast system and as you said
00:24:24
rightly the gender thing is there
00:24:26
um
00:24:28
unfortunately this is all the psyche of
00:24:30
male that they don't take women who are
00:24:35
on the app very seriously they think I
00:24:37
mean they will do it for the hookup or
00:24:40
whatever but uh they think whatever
00:24:42
their parents or the mother will choose
00:24:45
as more pure and you know that that that
00:24:48
bies as I said earlier are there and
00:24:51
they are not going away just because we
00:24:53
have moved forward in terms of
00:24:55
technology that those B are there you
00:24:58
said the boy's mother cuz remember I was
00:24:59
saying the education level of the boy's
00:25:01
mother tends to be quite instrumental in
00:25:03
how diverse his choices of wrer um but
00:25:07
let's talk a little bit about how pop
00:25:09
culture represents marriage especially
00:25:12
mainstream Bollywood uh what what's your
00:25:15
take on sort of do you think it glosses
00:25:18
over far too much do you think we've
00:25:19
seen some more sort of accurate
00:25:22
portrayals more recently I mean I I
00:25:25
don't want to I want to let you let you
00:25:27
talk so uh I I think this whole idea of
00:25:30
big fat Indian wedding started from that
00:25:33
film uh
00:25:36
H I think 1991 or some if I'm not wrong
00:25:40
so after that these weddings got
00:25:44
expensive and costlier and then
00:25:46
obviously whole brand of pop cultural
00:25:48
thing D and whatnot the whole Cinema so
00:25:51
that Cinema inspired people because
00:25:54
wedding now became a part of living a
00:25:56
Bollywood reality or like the arranged
00:25:59
marriage meet meetings are auditions and
00:26:01
then you finally have that dream of
00:26:03
living like a star for one day or two
00:26:05
days so the these are designed like that
00:26:08
to make you feel like a Bollywood star
00:26:10
so that a music are also inspired from
00:26:13
the Bollywood and everything um so
00:26:15
everything is like that and obviously
00:26:17
then you put it now it became instagr
00:26:21
instagramable um your wedding has to be
00:26:23
like that because of the celebrity
00:26:24
weddings and you see so the the wedding
00:26:27
that we in the pop culture produces an
00:26:29
aspirational idea of what we want to do
00:26:33
um sometime even in the society uh these
00:26:36
you know expensive wedding provides an
00:26:37
aspirational idea and if you're not
00:26:39
doing it then you are somehow fa failing
00:26:41
at it so that is a very um sad uh
00:26:46
situation because I once saw my driver
00:26:48
Uncle crying in front of me because he
00:26:50
can't arrange the money for this big
00:26:52
tent and big marriage garden and he
00:26:56
said
00:26:58
so that competitiveness is something
00:27:00
which is
00:27:01
very sad um so that is that is one
00:27:06
aspect of it all the wedding to be
00:27:09
honest my experience of wedding in in in
00:27:13
in Rajasthan from where I came it it
00:27:16
comes from the state of anxiety to to be
00:27:18
very honest because I remember when I
00:27:21
was a child uh there was a certain phone
00:27:23
call um during my my mama's wedding
00:27:27
Which is my
00:27:28
brother of my mother so the phone call
00:27:31
said that the other person call
00:27:35
that so the are not allowed to sit on
00:27:37
the horse to uh that that that thing
00:27:40
have happened at that time so in the
00:27:42
night the police came and everything and
00:27:44
in in the morning was the wedding that
00:27:47
whole ceremony uh then um there was a 10
00:27:51
situation that something can go wrong so
00:27:53
that even that day which is considered
00:27:55
as a cue day for most of the people like
00:27:58
a beautiful day that is fraught with so
00:28:01
many kind of danger and anxiety so this
00:28:04
also happens in Rajasthan these kind of
00:28:06
situations are very common during the
00:28:08
wedding like on in the dalit wedding uh
00:28:10
that uh there can be a chances of some
00:28:13
misr who are going to disrupt it through
00:28:16
violence or something so wedding is is
00:28:19
some I Associated a little bit with that
00:28:22
but also with another aspect which I
00:28:25
realized recently when when I was in
00:28:27
when I attended so many weddings of my
00:28:29
family that uh for women it it becomes a
00:28:33
an idea of release because our society
00:28:35
is so traditional and um women are not
00:28:38
given chances to expresss women of the
00:28:41
family I'm saying when the wedding
00:28:44
function and everything happened to my
00:28:45
family the women of my family became
00:28:47
very excited when the wedding happened
00:28:48
said they dance they express themselves
00:28:51
and for them it's a celebration uh and
00:28:54
the other kind of deas are obviously
00:28:56
very mundane and boring but that that
00:28:58
that whole wedding function become for
00:29:00
them it it becomes it gives a meaning to
00:29:03
their life that function attendees yeah
00:29:06
the attendees the relatives and
00:29:08
everything so when I see them happy then
00:29:10
I said okay there is another point of
00:29:11
view so one of the very interesting
00:29:13
image of um of my growing up is that I
00:29:17
saw a DJ in at at my Village and which
00:29:22
was playing a song called papy papy papy
00:29:24
Chulo and there were 5050 women dancing
00:29:26
on it
00:29:29
so with G dancing on it so I said okay
00:29:33
that's I understand that it it's for
00:29:37
them it's like tomorrow land or
00:29:38
something so like a r we just look at
00:29:41
these weddings and you know love romance
00:29:45
uncritically without knowing that
00:29:48
obviously there's a beauty in these
00:29:49
things but there is also a lot of Terror
00:29:52
which is unexplored speaking of Love uh
00:29:55
I once uh I read in an article you'd
00:29:58
written I loved what you wrote uh of how
00:30:01
you know the true ambassadors of New
00:30:02
India are its young lovers and if we can
00:30:05
retain and hold on to that Spirit of of
00:30:08
believing in love and and and going
00:30:10
after it despite the the potential
00:30:13
threats and dangers that come with it
00:30:15
like those are the true agents of change
00:30:18
and they deserve uh you know a support
00:30:21
like if the nation should not fail these
00:30:23
lovers so do you see love as a very
00:30:26
powerful and transgressive for us and
00:30:28
can you let's should we should we um
00:30:30
sort of wrap things up on this on this
00:30:33
love is obviously a very radical thing
00:30:35
in India to do because when you're
00:30:37
loving someone out of your choice then
00:30:39
you are bypassing so much of social uh
00:30:43
social structure and uh so that so the
00:30:46
entire Act of being in love is is
00:30:49
through a political lens is a is a very
00:30:52
radical thing so why I wrote this
00:30:56
article was because of an incident that
00:30:58
happened that a girl um married without
00:31:03
letting um her her parents know with to
00:31:07
to a a delit delit person and then they
00:31:10
they were angry they were after her life
00:31:12
and everything so she was hiding
00:31:14
somewhere and making these kind of
00:31:16
videos on on on I think that Facebook
00:31:20
was there she was making videos and uh
00:31:22
telling the society that I'm in love
00:31:24
with him and I just want to be with him
00:31:27
and um so that kind of thing fascinated
00:31:31
me because of her courage to stood up to
00:31:34
what she believed and also terrified me
00:31:37
to know that what is going to happen so
00:31:39
there was in that video there are both
00:31:41
the things which I said in the beginning
00:31:43
so there is a beautiful um trans like
00:31:46
aspect in the love when two people are
00:31:47
in love but at the same time there is an
00:31:50
ultimate Terror in the idea of Love
00:31:53
which was there because their life was
00:31:55
in danger so that is the Crux of the
00:31:58
whole argument argument that I presented
00:32:01
these both things are existing together
00:32:03
so it's not like the U kind
00:32:06
of
00:32:10
or there is a in the love but there is a
00:32:12
hell which is also waiting for you so
00:32:14
these both thing we have to uh be more
00:32:17
honest of of analyzing it so that's why
00:32:21
I said that government should protect
00:32:23
lovers because they were in the danger
00:32:26
and they should protect them um give
00:32:28
them legal assistant and everything
00:32:30
which is sadly um not happening because
00:32:33
U if you look at these vigilante attacks
00:32:37
on um on on Valentine's Day there are
00:32:40
groups you know who attack lovers one
00:32:43
time I was also about to get attacked in
00:32:45
2010 in japur so that happened I was
00:32:49
sitting in a cafe and suddenly I hear a
00:32:51
loud sound of somebody breaking the
00:32:53
glasses so the then I saw that somebody
00:32:56
was throwing Stone bones and then I was
00:32:59
with a female friend and we walked and I
00:33:01
saw the trails of Blood on the floor so
00:33:03
apparently the manager hand got injured
00:33:06
so the blood was flowing then outside
00:33:08
there was these dulls who were you know
00:33:11
wearing these things and um shouting
00:33:15
that
00:33:16
shamaro these things they were shouting
00:33:18
at at at me and uh so yeah I moved uh
00:33:23
but the problem is that these dulls are
00:33:25
also
00:33:27
created out of the per wors desire of
00:33:31
the society so they also like them
00:33:33
secretly you know Dy disturbing the
00:33:36
lowers and these the these dulls are uh
00:33:39
seen as like for them it's like Batman
00:33:41
for the society who is fighting the real
00:33:44
cause so that's what I'm saying that
00:33:46
that we have to build some kind of
00:33:47
mechanism to protect protect lovers for
00:33:51
protect people who who um wants to love
00:33:55
um love each other want wants to be
00:33:57
together each other and there should be
00:33:59
no such kind
00:34:01
of pressure from the from the outside
00:34:04
but I don't know when it is going to
00:34:06
happen but at least we can talk about it
00:34:08
yeah yeah a girl can dream um thank you
00:34:13
so much anurak such a pleasure talking
00:34:15
to you thank you for joining us on love
00:34:17
matters and thank you to everyone who
00:34:20
tuned in you can uh find all of anurag's
00:34:23
social platforms and his podcast in the
00:34:25
show notes you absolutely must check out
00:34:28
everything if you haven't already just
00:34:30
like spend the next 10 hours consuming
00:34:32
anor's work it is so well worth it um if
00:34:36
you'd like to write into to us you can
00:34:37
email us at love matters dw.com love
00:34:40
matters is produced by indianexpress and
00:34:42
DW Germany's International broadcaster
00:34:46
we would love it if you R it and
00:34:47
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00:34:49
listening or watching it and do share it
00:34:51
with your friends and family thank you
00:34:54
again and for now this is Lisa signing
00:34:56
off I believe that love
00:35:00
[Music]
00:35:03
matters
