00:00:00
Robert Greene in studio in the flesh. You are
actually one of our most requested guests.
00:00:05
Is that right?
Yeah, for the past year.
00:00:06
Who's the most requested?
Dr. K, the gaming psychologist.
00:00:11
Don't even know who that is,
wow. Have you had him on?
00:00:15
I have not. I've contacted his people, but he-
What's so amazing about Dr. K?
00:00:21
Well, he's a psychiatrist who
targets mental health for gamers.
00:00:27
That's a lot of your audience?
I guess so.
00:00:32
A lot of YouTubers.
I guess so.
00:00:34
It's The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck
podcast with your host, Mark Manson.
00:00:43
So, my first question for you is actually
quite selfish. As a younger author I find
00:00:49
your career so fascinating because you
have this long history of successful books,
00:00:56
but it really seems like there's this resurgence
of interest, especially in The 48 Laws of Power
00:01:02
over the last few years. It seems like Gen Z is
discovering Robert Greene and you're getting this
00:01:09
whole second wave of attention. I'm curious what
that experience has been like, what your thoughts
00:01:16
on that are, and whether you feel like you have
any control over that or if it just happened?
00:01:22
Well, I don't know. It's probably a confluence
of things. Who knows why things happen in this
00:01:26
world? It's complex and it's mysterious, but I
would say social media has played a huge role in
00:01:34
it because back 10 years ago or so, nobody really
knew who I was. I had no Instagram. I was a little
00:01:42
bit on Facebook, but I hadn't really gotten into
social media at all. I was very scant on Twitter,
00:01:50
and so I think a lot of it is about five years ago
some fan said, you've got to get on social media,
00:01:58
and he took over and he did it himself
for me, and we ended up having to fire
00:02:03
him because he was a control freak, but he's a
nice guy, but he just wanted to run my empire.
00:02:10
He would call it my empire. He'd say, your
legacy, I'm going to protect your legacy as
00:02:13
if I'm dead or something. So, I got rid of him.
Anyway, suddenly it started growing. I have this
00:02:20
guy, Stanley, who's my assistant who puts clips
and he's very good at choosing certain clips,
00:02:27
and so a lot of it is social media
giving me a presence. Up until recently,
00:02:33
I could walk down the street, nobody knew who
the hell I was, and suddenly people started
00:02:37
recognizing me because of this. It just exploded.
Even in places like London or Paris, its like got
00:02:44
this international reach was incredible. And
so, I have to thank social media for that,
00:02:49
for paying my mortgage and all the other things
like that. But then, why has it resonated now?
00:02:55
And I think young people are dealing with a
world that's so much more chaotic and confusing.
00:03:01
Some of it has to do with the conditions of
the world that we're living in, which is,
00:03:06
as I said, much more chaotic than it was maybe
10, 15 years ago. Some of it has to do with the
00:03:12
parenting issues, how differently they have been
raised and the culture that they're entering.
00:03:16
And so, because of that feeling, kind of very
lost and confused, The 48 Laws of Power gives
00:03:24
you a grounding in the dark, harsh aspect of
life, because I don't know, I'm not Gen Z, so
00:03:32
it's hard for me to generalize. Of course, it's
ridiculous to generalize, but a lot of them feel
00:03:38
maybe they've been a little bit sheltered from
that harsh aspect of life. I know when I was 21,
00:03:46
if I can remember back that far, I entered the
work world out of college and I was a liberal
00:03:53
arts major, ancient Greek and Latin. You can't
get any more irrelevant subject than that. My
00:03:59
first job was a real job, because I had many
different, my first real job was at Esquire
00:04:04
Magazine. I was the lowest editor there, an
editorial assistant. It was like mind-blowing.
00:04:10
I couldn't believe power games that were going
on, because nothing in college prepared you
00:04:14
for that. All the egos of the writers and the
editors, the celebrity, the weirdness. I once
00:04:21
edited an article by John Irving, the writer.
He turned in a travel article about Vienna,
00:04:29
because I was the travel editor. It was such a
bad article. It was like, go to this cafe, turn
00:04:37
right and then go here, and then turn left and
go, it was like that kind of writing. I edited,
00:04:42
totally made it like a narrative, and I got
essentially fired because of that, or got demoted.
00:04:48
I had outshone the master, law number one. So,
it was this rude awakening into this is what
00:04:54
the world is really like. I had to school myself
very quickly, and then with my 50 different jobs,
00:05:00
I learned over time, this is how the world is.
Young people are going through that but times 10,
00:05:06
because the world is even more confusing. They're
not used to dealing with all of these egos to all
00:05:12
the political games. So, I think, I can't
say for sure, but I think these are some of
00:05:17
the components that go into this revival of the
book. It's selling five times more than it ever
00:05:24
did 20 years ago, so it's insane.
Crazy. I feel like cynicism travels
00:05:30
on the internet faster than it does in real
life, and I think as a generation that grew up
00:05:37
on social media and grew up on the internet, what
I detect from Gen Z is just an embedded cynicism
00:05:44
about the world and-
Is that right?
00:05:46
... skepticism, and I could see why a book
about power appeals to that. It's like,
00:05:52
well, this book's going to just cut through
the bullshit and actually tell me what's
00:05:56
going on. The appeal makes sense.
But, I'm not a cynical person. I know
00:06:02
people think of the book as cynical, but I don't
really think of it as cynical, because cynical is
00:06:09
basically leaning into all the bad things in
life, et cetera, and it's not very realistic
00:06:14
because not all life is bad. There are bad people
out there. I just think the book is realistic.
00:06:21
For sure.
Because, I'm not a cynical
00:06:23
person at heart. I'm actually got, unfortunately,
more of a romantic naive streak, and I think
00:06:29
in some weird way that comes out in the book.
It's interesting. You and I have met in person
00:06:35
a few times now, and I imagine the image that
people get from reading your books versus-
00:06:42
How they see me.
... how you actually are in person.
00:06:45
Do you get people assuming that you're trying
to pull puppet strings and manipulating them?
00:06:50
If I'm five minutes late for a meeting, it's
not because of the traffic, it's because I'm
00:06:54
playing some kind of weird game on them.
They're like a small 27 or whatever.
00:07:02
I've told this story before, but when I met 50
Cent for the first time before we ever thought
00:07:08
of writing a book together, he later told
me he was a little bit intimidated by this.
00:07:16
He expected an older man. He expected like
Henry Kissinger to show up when we first met,
00:07:22
and then he was surprised, maybe even a little bit
disappointed that I wasn't like that. Of course,
00:07:27
I had the same impression about him. I was
expecting someone really mean and intimidating
00:07:33
and thuggish, and he was the sweetest, gentlest,
nicest person you could ever imagine. But,
00:07:39
people expect this, that everything I do
is a power move, but it's not true.
00:07:44
Do you just see that as the cost of the success
of the book? Because I get this with my fuck
00:07:50
books. People make assumptions about me, and
then they meet me in person. They're like,
00:07:55
oh, you're not like that at all.
Well, you do give a fuck, don't you?
00:07:58
Of course.
No, I'm just kidding.
00:08:03
But, you're outing me,
Robert. You're outing me.
00:08:06
Exactly, sorry. You can start being mean to me
now, you got to show people. There's a theatrical
00:08:13
element to the social world, which I embrace and I
think is fun and interesting, and it's part of The
00:08:19
48 Laws of Power. So, when you enter the world,
you're not yourself. I think it's something,
00:08:25
a mistake people make. They have no distance
between their inner self and their public self, so
00:08:32
they enter the work world and people are different
and weird and stuff, and they take it personally,
00:08:37
and I try and strike to people, it's not personal,
it's a game. People are wearing masks. It's like
00:08:42
something from the 18th century where people are
in costumes and they're in theater and they're
00:08:46
performing. People are constantly performing.
Well, I'm performing as well. And so, if people
00:08:52
have this image of me as this dark, sinister
figure, sometimes I don't mind. I might lean
00:08:58
into it a little bit. I might give that out,
that impression, because I enjoy that. I enjoy
00:09:03
playing that role sort of thing. I don't have a
problem with it, but it's not really who I am.
00:09:14
Tell me about, in your book, Mastery, you talk
about finding your life task, and from what I
00:09:20
know about you and from the bits and pieces I've
read about you and talked to you, you seemed to
00:09:26
know pretty early on that you wanted to be an
author. You seem just built to be a writer.
00:09:32
What was your process of searching and discovering
and finding what you consider your life task?
00:09:38
My story was fairly clear. Like you, it goes up
and down. It's never like a straight path.
00:09:45
Of course.
But, when I was very young,
00:09:48
I loved writing. I believe I wrote something
like a novel when I was about nine years old.
00:09:55
Oh, wow.
And it was about our
00:09:59
early humans first entering the scene, walking
in the savannas of Africa, I'm nine years old,
00:10:06
and it's told from the point of view of a vulture
who's watching them. I'm sure it's terrible.
00:10:13
But, for a nine-year-old, that's impressive.
The concept, yeah.
00:10:16
It's very impressive.
I was really obsessed with vultures and
00:10:17
I did little sculptures of vultures, so you kind
of see the dark side already there when I'm nine
00:10:22
years old. And so, I love words, just the sound of
words, the sensuality of words, the weirdness of,
00:10:32
I never took language at its face value. I thought
there's something strange that we speak in words,
00:10:37
that we have these symbols that we take
for granted, that we talk so smoothly,
00:10:42
but they're not, they're weird, that these little
squiggles that mean something that have a sound
00:10:48
attached to them. As a child, I thought this
is really strange. I was obsessed with words. I
00:10:53
played with words. I still do that to this day.
I love palindromes and word games and such. So,
00:10:59
words obsessed me, and obviously I
wanted to be a writer. I thought when
00:11:03
I was 18 and in my drug days that I would be a
wild novelist. That was my real dream. I still
00:11:10
am kind of a failed novelist, so to speak.
And so I tried, as I've told people before,
00:11:15
I tried many different types of writing. I tried
journalism. I hated it. I failed at it. It wasn't
00:11:21
a good fit. I tried writing novels, bumming around
Europe with a backpack. I failed at that. I came
00:11:29
back to LA, tried to be a screenwriter, I failed
at that. These weren't fits for me because I have
00:11:35
a weird mind and I'm also a control freak, and
I didn't have any control in Hollywood. And so,
00:11:45
I lucked into The 48 Laws of Power by meeting this
man in Italy. We were there to start a new media
00:11:53
school for Benetton, some weird project like that.
It was a meaningless venture. It really was about
00:12:00
being in Italy and having good pasta and espresso
and wine. It wasn't about getting anything done
00:12:05
if you know the Italians-
[inaudible 00:12:06].
00:12:07
This is the land of Machiavelli. And so, Jost
and I, the man who did that, we bonded over
00:12:13
it. One day I'm in Venice, Italy, because it
was near Venice and we were walking he said,
00:12:17
do I have any ideas for a book? And The
48 Laws of Power just, it was almost like
00:12:22
I vomited out of me. I improvised, the
gist of it actually, I told him a story,
00:12:28
the story that opens the book. I said, this is how
I'd illustrate it. He said, that's fantastic. I'll
00:12:34
pay you to live while you write the book, because
I was very poor. And so, I found my way in this
00:12:43
circuitous manner to what I was really meant
to do. But, the lesson, I think for people,
00:12:49
because I get so many emails people telling me, I
don't know what my life's task is. I can't figure
00:12:55
out what my purpose is. Can you help me? And there
are signs, I believe everybody has signs, and
00:13:02
these signs come out. A lot of them are negative
signs, which you're not paying attention to,
00:13:08
things that you hate, things that frustrate you.
So, you're in music, it isn't quite working. You
00:13:14
feel a little bit uncomfortable. It's not a fit.
So, you make the wise decision that it's not for
00:13:21
you, you get out. Other people, they maybe feel
that frustration, but they don't go there. They
00:13:26
go, oh, I've already trained as a musician. I
got to stick with it. They go, and then they burn
00:13:32
out. They're 30 years old and it's not working for
them. They go, what's my life's purpose? I have no
00:13:36
idea. You've got to listen to the signs. Sometimes
the signs are physical. They're literally in your
00:13:42
body, you literally feel frustrated. You
literally feel like you're swimming against
00:13:46
the tide. It's not working for you. You get up in
the morning, you're not interested in this. So,
00:13:52
the negative is very important, but also there's
the positive. So, for me, the negative was
00:13:59
I actually hate office politics, which is
very ironic for me who wrote that. I can't
00:14:06
stand working for other people, and so I have to
work for myself. I have to be an entrepreneur.
00:14:11
I have to write books, I have to have control.
But then, there are the positive signs. There's
00:14:17
the signs of things that you love, that you're
passionate about. They generally show up when
00:14:22
you're very 6, 7, 8 years old. And so, I tell
people, you've got to go through that process. You
00:14:28
have to reconnect with the child inside of you,
because children are dreamers. Every child thinks,
00:14:34
I'm going to be president, I'm going to write a
great novel, I'm going to do this, that or the
00:14:38
other, and then those dreams slowly get squeezed
out of them. But, you have to return back to that.
00:14:43
You have to have a little bit of that expanse
of quality, that little bit of imagination,
00:14:47
even a little bit of naivete, and go back to who
you were and go back to the things that excite you
00:14:53
in a way that you can't even explain.
The negative feedback thing.
00:14:59
One thing I notice in a lot of people, there's
this narrative around grit, persistence, hustle
00:15:09
culture. What I noticed with a lot of people is
when they start running into that resistance and
00:15:16
it doesn't feel right, it feels painful. The first
thing they tell themselves is like, oh, well,
00:15:21
I just need to toughen the fuck up and keep going
because this is what all my heroes did, is they
00:15:27
just kept fighting through it. And I think it's
so much more nuanced than that, of understanding
00:15:33
when to push through and when to let go.
Well, the subtle art should be actually the
00:15:38
title of your next book, because it is subtle,
it is nuanced. Life is not so obvious. So,
00:15:44
sometimes grit and persistence is the right
way. So, for me, writing, I failed at all these
00:15:50
different aspects. I didn't give up. I didn't
say, all right, my parents wanted me to go to
00:15:55
law school, wanted me to settle down, wanted me
to take these awful television jobs that I had,
00:16:00
and I've had the worst television job you can
imagine. I won't even say that. They want me
00:16:06
to settle down. I had to have the persistence to
go, no, I'm going to do this. I'm going to stick
00:16:11
with it. I have faith in myself even though
I got very depressed. But also, sometimes
00:16:15
persistence could be exactly the wrong thing.
And the key is, the key to everything in life is
00:16:22
knowing what you really truly love, what
you were meant to do, why you were born,
00:16:27
why you're a different individual. I know
it sounds like a cliche, but everybody,
00:16:33
your DNA is unique. There's never going to be
another Mark Manson. The way your brain is wired,
00:16:39
the way your parents raised you, your early
experiences, you are unique. And so, that is
00:16:44
where your power lies, and connecting to that
is the source of everything in this world. So,
00:16:51
if you connect to it, if you know who you are, you
know what you love, you know what you were meant
00:16:55
to do, and it's not a cliche, it's actually very
real, then that persistence will become an actual
00:17:02
positive thing in your life because you'll know
I can't keep kicking against a wall here. It's
00:17:07
not what I was meant to do. I got to get out.
So, I was 25, 26 years old. I was in New York
00:17:15
working in journalism. I had a meeting with an
editor after I wrote an article, and I didn't know
00:17:21
what the meeting was for, and he was kind of an
alcoholic. He was on his second or third martini
00:17:26
at lunch, and he basically said, Robert, you're
not a good writer. You're not going to make it
00:17:32
in this world. You need to go to business school.
You're not disciplined. You're all over the place.
00:17:36
You don't understand your audience. And so, I
could have said fuck you, I could have stayed
00:17:44
in journalism and I'd probably be dead by now. I'd
probably be an alcoholic, because it wasn't right.
00:17:50
But, I listened to it and I go, there's something
true there. It isn't right. It isn't a good fit.
00:17:55
I'm hitting against a wall. I got to get out and
I got to try something else. But, if you don't
00:18:00
know who you are, if you don't know what marked
you as a weird person when you were a child,
00:18:07
then you're lost in life. You have no radar.
One thing that I tell people all the time is I
00:18:13
ask them, what's the form of pain that you
enjoy that most people can't tolerate?
00:18:20
And you don't mean in a kinky way?
No, not in a kinky way.
00:18:24
It could be.
Well, we don't judge
00:18:27
here, it's a [inaudible 00:18:29] podcast, but-
Just wanted to clear that up.
00:18:34
Keep it at PG-13, Robert.
I'm sorry.
00:18:38
What is the challenge or struggle
that you relish? I know for me,
00:18:46
and I imagine it's similar for you, when I am
in the hole with a book, when I'm just deep
00:18:53
in a mess of a draft and I'm agonizing through
it, I'm laying awake at night, you know what-
00:18:59
I'm going through it right now.
You know what I'm talking about. There's
00:19:03
still kind of a sick part of me that likes it.
There's something thrilling about it. And I think
00:19:10
most people, they can't stomach it. Whereas, in
music school, I remember the moment I decided
00:19:17
to drop out of music school. I remember I was
practicing four to six hours a day on top-
00:19:24
What did you play?
Guitar. So, I was practicing four
00:19:27
to six hours a day on top of all my classes. And
I remember I went into one of my private tutors
00:19:34
and tried to play a song for him, and he just
looked at me and he's like, you know what your
00:19:38
problem is? You don't practice enough. And that
was the moment I was like, I'm done. I can't.
00:19:48
And was the practice painful,
but not in a good way?
00:19:51
Correct. It was drudgery, and to
me that was a very profound lesson.
00:19:59
Because, I loved performing and I loved getting
attention because I could play some song or some
00:20:05
solo, but I didn't like practicing. And
musicianship is actually practicing.
00:20:12
It's all practicing.
It's 99% practice, 1% performance. So,
00:20:17
it was a very painful lesson of, you think you
like this, but you don't actually like it.
00:20:22
Wow, that's very interesting.
Well, when you love something,
00:20:29
when you have that connection like I'm talking
about, then the practice, you enjoy it. You
00:20:34
enjoy learning, because you enjoy the process of
getting better and you can feel your brain kind
00:20:39
of tingling and things are happening inside. And
I tell people, if you have found the right path,
00:20:46
if you are like an artist or creative and
you feel frustrated and you feel blocked,
00:20:51
that's a good thing. That little bit of
pain, that little bit of frustration,
00:20:56
it's often a signal that you're actually on
the verge of turning into the right direction,
00:21:01
because it's a signal that things aren't
quite working out and you're listening to it.
00:21:05
But, if you get anxious and you don't listen
to the frustration and you can't be creative,
00:21:10
you can't go into it. But, you'll learn at a much
higher rate and you'll enjoy because anything, as
00:21:17
I said in Mastery, everything involves a degree of
pain, a degree of practice, a degree of drudgery.
00:21:24
There's nothing that's going to come easy in life.
So, any skill that you're going to learn is going
00:21:30
to involve that. And if you're not connected to
it in a deep late way like you weren't with music,
00:21:36
you're never going to learn fast enough and
you're just going to burn out too early.
00:21:44
Robert, what about reconnecting with that life
task and going back and finding that? Because,
00:21:49
I think you talk about a lot of the negative
signs. I think people can get stuck. Everything's
00:21:55
just a negative sign. They're like, and they
completely forget. Mark, you said that you
00:21:59
got disconnected from that at one point and you
kind of by chance, stumbled back into it. Robert,
00:22:04
it sounds like you always knew you wanted to be a
writer of some kind. There are a lot of people who
00:22:10
just, they feel like, they don't even know what
that is to begin with. So, can you talk a little
00:22:13
bit more about uncovering that connection to your
life task, going back to childhood or whatever?
00:22:19
It is a good question because a lot of people,
they only know the negative, they only know.
00:22:24
And then, you kind of beat up on yourself, and
then you start doubting yourself and you think,
00:22:28
well, maybe there's nothing that I'm really good
at. Maybe I just need to go make a lot of money,
00:22:33
which I'm not against making money. I'm not
telling people to say, oh, I'm meant to be a poet,
00:22:38
which you can't make a living off of. You
have to be able to put food on the table if
00:22:42
you're supporting a family, et cetera. So,
being able to make a living is important,
00:22:47
but you don't have to compromise completely on
that. So, fighting that positive element, well,
00:22:53
the first thing you have to do is it's
a process, and people are so impatient.
00:22:59
They are so unused to being, to introspecting. And
being able to introspect is a very powerful tool.
00:23:07
And what that means is you have to be able to
examine yourself. And in our culture, we're so
00:23:11
outer directed. We're so directed towards what
other people are doing, toward the social world,
00:23:17
that the idea of who am I, what was I like as a
child, what do I really love? Is alien to people.
00:23:24
I can't understand that because I've always,
I'm a very introspective person, but a lot of
00:23:29
people have a hard time with that concept, and I
encounter that when I try and counsel them. So,
00:23:35
I tell people, you have to be patient. It's
not going to come in a light, a flash of,
00:23:40
wow, I was meant to be a sculptor. Here I go. So,
you've got to be patient. You got to take a book
00:23:47
and you have to make a journal. I think it works
for a lot of people, and you have to start going
00:23:53
through this process. And I tell people, look for
the signs of things that excited you, that excite
00:24:00
you in a way that you can't even really control.
Because, we live in a culture that is so damn
00:24:06
rational. Everything is an algorithm. Everything
is generated by data, but this is a feel. This
00:24:13
is not data, this is a feel. This is an intuition.
This is something that excites you in an intuitive
00:24:20
way, and there's no algorithm in the world that
I could invent or any genius could invent to
00:24:25
help you find that. It's a feel. It's subtle.
It's inside of you, but if you can't go inside
00:24:31
of yourself, if you're so not into looking into
who you are, all the advice in the world will be
00:24:39
useless. And I tell people that I can't help you
unless you're willing to go through that process.
00:24:44
And some of that examining is tough. Some of
it is, I had a rough childhood. I had these
00:24:52
fantasies, but they weren't necessarily positive.
You're going to come upon negative things, and I
00:24:58
had a lot of negative things in my childhood too.
So, you have to be willing to go through that
00:25:04
digging. You're like an archeologist with your
own past. You're digging in there looking for
00:25:09
the signs, and they're there. When you were five
years old, four years old, you were naturally
00:25:15
excited by certain things. The other thing I tell
people is, we've got to get away from this idea of
00:25:22
intelligence as just being intellectual. There's a
book I recommend to a lot of people, I've probably
00:25:27
over recommended it by Howard Gardner, called
The Frames, The Five Frames of Intelligence.
00:25:33
I'm probably, I'm always misquoting it, but it's
something like that. You'll find it. And he's
00:25:38
basically a neuroscientist. He's a scientist of
some sort. And he said, there are five forms of
00:25:45
intelligence. There's a mathematical intelligence
to do with patterns, it's often related to music.
00:25:52
There's a social intelligence that has to deal
with dealing with people. There is kinetic
00:25:56
intelligence, which is moving the body, sports
or dance or whatever. There's word intelligence.
00:26:03
There's that kind. There's another one,
I can't remember what it is, imagery or
00:26:06
something like that. Every brain has that natural
inclination towards one of these intelligences,
00:26:15
and you have that as well. I compare it to a grain
that's inside of you and that you have to move
00:26:22
with that grain. You have to find it. And it's one
of these forms of intelligence, you have it. Yes,
00:26:28
you can have two, but if you have two or three,
it starts, I don't know, you're going to get
00:26:33
a little bit lost. You're a polymath. Maybe
you're a genius or maybe you're just confused,
00:26:38
but you've got to find that one thing. And if
it's sports, if it's dance, that's intelligence.
00:26:46
Kobe Bryant, my idol, because I love basketball,
he was as intelligent as, he's a Michelangelo on
00:26:53
the basketball court. It's intelligence. Parents
like to say, well, no, you've got to go to law
00:27:00
school. You've got to be this. You've got to be an
academic and blah, blah, blah. No, it's whatever
00:27:04
is that grain of your brain that is natural,
and you've got to find that. And so, don't think
00:27:10
in terms of I want to be this specific job or
whatever. Think in terms of what is that natural
00:27:18
form that my brain veers towards? And now, if you
know that you are somebody who has a mathematical
00:27:25
abstract, mechanical-like brain, let's go into
that. Let's go deeper now. Let's find if you're
00:27:30
an engineer or if you're a musician or okay, but
you got to go back and you got to dig. I could go
00:27:36
on for hours about some of the processes that I go
through with people, that should give you an idea
00:27:40
of some of the positive things that you can do.
But, it is a process. That's what I like about
00:27:44
it. It's not the lightning bolt,
like you said. It's not...
00:27:47
No.
And it also never completely
00:27:49
ends. It's not like-
No, for sure.
00:27:51
You don't just find the thing and you're
like, cool, I'm set. There's, every five,
00:27:56
10 years something happens in your life or
you evolve or you change a little bit, or-
00:28:01
Definitely.
... your preferences
00:28:03
change. So, it's a perpetual thing for sure.
Some people, they get tired of the thing they've
00:28:09
been doing for 10, 15, 20 years, and then they
go try something different. And I often counsel,
00:28:17
you don't want to go like, you're a
writer and now, oh no, I'm going to be,
00:28:22
I don't know, choose something totally
irrelevant from that, whatever.
00:28:24
A programmer or something.
You should go off in a different
00:28:29
direction within writing or something. And so,
you get bored. And the boredom either means I've
00:28:39
got to change my job, or it means I have to
change something within my job and I prefer
00:28:44
the something within my job. So, how I personally
deal with it is every book that I write is on a
00:28:50
completely different subject. I never repeat the
same book twice. I'm onto something that is not,
00:28:57
the book I'm writing now people are going to be
shocked, because it's completely different from
00:29:00
anything I've ever written, so I don't get
bored. I'm constantly challenging myself.
00:29:07
Cool. We will be right back. You've probably
heard of, seen or read this book. I'm Mark Manson,
00:29:16
the author of said book. After I became a New
York Times bestseller, I wanted to do something
00:29:20
else that wasn't just writing another book, so
I launched Your Next Breakthrough. It's a free
00:29:24
email newsletter with no gimmicks and no bullshit.
Just a five minute read each week with one idea,
00:29:29
one question, and one exercise that could spark
your next breakthrough. Over a million people
00:29:34
are already signed up, so just click below
to get in on the action for free. All right,
00:29:40
we're back. So, Robert, we do a segment that Drew
and I love called Brilliant or Bullshit, which is
00:29:47
we take recent scientific research surveys,
new theories, things that have become popular
00:29:55
or become talked about, and we discuss whether we
think it's brilliant or whether it's bullshit. So,
00:30:01
we want to include you on this round. We want to
hear your opinion. We have something selected.
00:30:06
So, for this Brilliant or Bullshit, Robert, we're
talking about Peter Pan syndrome. Now, there's
00:30:12
a lot of talk about how men are checking out.
They're not getting jobs, not getting educated,
00:30:18
not committing to long-term relationships.
Sitting at
00:30:20
home playing video games, watching porn.
Playing video games, vaping, watching porn.
00:30:24
There's a female version of it too called the
Cinderella Syndrome, but the Peter Pan syndrome
00:30:28
is really in the zeitgeist more and more. And
actually there are some recent studies that are
00:30:33
trying to quantify this and label it a, I wouldn't
say diagnosable syndrome, but they do call it a
00:30:39
syndrome and they suggest therapy for it. What I
would like to ask you, first of all, do you think
00:30:46
calling it a syndrome is brilliant or bullshit?
I think I know what you would think about that,
00:30:49
but what do you think the main drivers really are?
Is there a problem of prolonged adolescence? What
00:30:55
the drivers of that prolonged adolescence
should we be therapizing it so much to?
00:31:01
Well, syndrome, that's a bit of bullshit. It's a
bit like, people like to talk about things these
00:31:08
days because everybody's an individual. Everybody
has their own childhood, their own background,
00:31:14
their own reasons for wanting to stay in
adolescence. And there are plenty of people
00:31:19
in my generation, particularly in my generation,
who got stuck in adolescence and are still stuck
00:31:24
there. So, it's not necessarily endemic just
to Gen Z. It's a phenomenon that has existed,
00:31:30
I'm not saying forever, certainly not.
But, since the reign of popular culture,
00:31:35
probably since the 1950s, the Peter Pan phenomena
has become more and more pronounced. And what was
00:31:42
the second part of the question?
What do you think is driving it?
00:31:45
Oh, right. Well, as I said, everybody's going
to be different. I know that's not a good answer
00:31:52
for you, but I think a lot of it is, it's a
very strange time to be a male, to be a boy,
00:32:00
to be a man. It's a very confusing time. And so,
I think that's a lot of the source of it. Because
00:32:07
when I was growing up, I'm sounding like I'm 100
years old. When I was 30, I hated hearing that
00:32:14
stupid expression.
Back in my day.
00:32:17
When I walked 12 miles to school in the snow.
Anyway, there was this, being a male, it was
00:32:28
obviously a positive. because it was a very
male oriented culture, but there was no sense
00:32:33
of confusion about it really, although some people
were confused and there's nothing with that. But,
00:32:41
there were icons in sports, in movies, the
rugged masculine hero, but in all aspects
00:32:50
of life. I remember as a kid, I'm so old that as
a three-year-old, I can remember John F. Kennedy
00:32:56
on the television, and I was fascinated by
him. I thought this was, he was a man who
00:33:03
was very commanding. He was the president. But,
there was also a weird kind of softness to him,
00:33:11
like a strange poetic side to it that drew me in.
There were these icons, and so you didn't feel,
00:33:17
you wanted to grow out of adolescence. You
wanted to become a man. You wanted to enter
00:33:22
the world and follow in the footsteps of
some of these people that you admired.
00:33:29
But, now it's like being a man, being a male,
being a masculine, it is almost ugly, it's dirty.
00:33:34
It's almost like something you have to
wipe off your skin, toxic masculinity,
00:33:40
but there's something you have to say
about testosterone. It can turn ugly,
00:33:45
but it drives you. It makes you do things. It's
got a positive element. It gives you ambition.
00:33:51
It makes you go out and do things. 12,000 years
ago it made you go hunt mastodons and kill them
00:33:57
with your other members. There should be
positive things about being a man. And so,
00:34:04
then I don't want to stay in adolescence. I don't
want to stay in this little cocoon with my mommy
00:34:09
and my daddy and my home playing games. I want
to go out in the world. I want to conquer. I have
00:34:14
ambition. I think the root of the problem is that
there's no kind of positive masculinity out there,
00:34:22
and so it doesn't give people an incentive to get
out of that little kind of adolescent cocoon.
00:34:28
I agree 100%. It's funny, we were joking around
about Dr. K at the beginning of the show, but I
00:34:34
think one of the reasons why he's become so
popular is there's this whole demographic of
00:34:41
young men who are kind of checked out and they're
playing video games all day, and he's one of the
00:34:46
only popular mental health voices that's speaking
directly to them saying, hey, you're playing too
00:34:52
many video games. Let's talk about it. How can
we get you back out in the world? I definitely
00:34:58
see a big portion of my audience is younger men.
I definitely have noticed this over recent years,
00:35:06
and I'm becoming a little alarmed by it. I agree
that there's a lack of clear role models. There's
00:35:13
not a roadmap. It's not obvious to a 17-year-old
male who to be, who they want to grow into,
00:35:22
and that's difficult and confusing. And then,
I think the ease of checking out today is-
00:35:29
Exactly.
... so much.
00:35:32
I struggle. I'll download a game on my
phone and I'll be lost for two hours.
00:35:38
Still?
Yeah, it's tough,
00:35:40
man. And I've got a fully developed prefrontal
cortex. Imagine an 18-year-old. He's fucked. So,
00:35:50
I really sympathize with a lot of the young guys
today, and I definitely see it as a problem.
00:35:58
It does seem to be a growing problem. The syndrome
thing makes me uncomfortable, and I'm curious what
00:36:03
your thoughts are on this. There seems to be a
little bit of a recent tendency to medicalize
00:36:09
everything, and especially things that were just
not normal behavior, but not necessarily abnormal
00:36:19
behavior, say 20 or 30 years ago, either.
Like what?
00:36:23
Like the Peter Pan syndrome. I remember when I was
in college, me and my friends, we used to go out
00:36:28
with this guy who was around, he was a divorced
guy, around 50, ton of fun. Awesome dude. And we
00:36:35
used to go out to the parties and clubs with him.
And we used to joke like, oh, it's Peter Pan over
00:36:41
there, but he was in this phase of his life. He
had just gotten out of a marriage and he was-
00:36:48
Well, you can be a functional Peter Pan.
Totally.
00:36:51
There are a lot of people out there who are,
people like Bill Clinton was a functional
00:36:56
Peter Pan. I see them all the time. It's the
boomer generation. I'm a little bit younger
00:37:01
than that. It's full of very functional
Peter Pans. I'm a functional Peter Pan.
00:37:06
Very true. It's very true.
I've been accused of the same as well.
00:37:10
Well, this is exactly my point, is that until I
guess a few years ago, this was just something
00:37:18
that you would casually talk about in conversation
or like, oh, he's a bit of a Peter Pan. He still
00:37:22
goes out to clubs and he's 50.
