00:00:00
by now you're probably aware of Billy
00:00:01
Carson's disastrous debate with Wes Huff
00:00:03
where Wes completely dismantled his
00:00:06
objections to Christianity and
00:00:07
ironically despite Billy going on a
00:00:09
mission to attack the god of the Bible
00:00:10
all of this is what led Joe Rogan to
00:00:12
invite Wes on his podcast to discuss the
00:00:14
debate and Rogan didn't hold back saying
00:00:17
this about Billy listen I like Billy but
00:00:19
it's very unfortunate when people get
00:00:21
caught with their pants down but here's
00:00:22
the thing the stuff about Billy isn't
00:00:24
even the highlight of the podcast what
00:00:25
happened next can Mark a pivotal moment
00:00:27
not just for Rogan but how his millions
00:00:29
of listeners think about Christianity
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this wasn't just a conversation about
00:00:33
Billy's mistakes it became an
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opportunity for Rogan to finally hear
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the facts about his objections to
00:00:38
Christianity cuz the New Testament is
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utter hor in a way he almost certainly
00:00:42
hasn't heard before so let's dive into
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the most fascinating moments of this
00:00:45
discussion and why I'm convinced that
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God divinely orchestrated this entire
00:00:49
Billy situation with this very moment in
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mind so as you already know Billy has
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claimed to be one of the world's leading
00:00:55
experts on Ancient scriptures and
00:00:56
manuscripts but after his debate most
00:00:59
people including Rogan simply aren't
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buying it anymore in fact here's the
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very first thing that Rogan said when
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his podcast began Wes very nice to meet
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you Joe pleasure so uh I like many
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people was introduced to you because of
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the uh debate that you had with Billy
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Carson quote unquote you know it's one
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of those things where it's very
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unfortunate when people get caught with
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their pants down and I'm not an expert
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in many things but the things that I am
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an expert on you could wake me up at
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4:00 in the morning and ask me about
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those things and I go oh yeah no um yeah
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this is what it is yeah it seems like he
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does not have that and he is a wonderful
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talker and it's a lot of fun I like
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watching his videos but when he was on
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with you it was quite apparent that you
00:01:43
are an actual expert in in the Bible and
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in Many religious uh texts and that he
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didn't necessarily have the facts
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straight and Rogan didn't stop at
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exposing Billy's lack of expertise he
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went on further explaining why those
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like Billy are such a problem for people
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like him listen I like Billy he was a
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nice guy I really enjoy talking to him I
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think his videos are fun but I also
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think truth is important he just needs
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to course correct yeah yeah course
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correct and and recognize what you know
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and what you don't know you're not doing
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people a service especially people like
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myself that aren't educated in this like
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we we turn to others who claim to have a
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vast knowledge of this tell me what's
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going on when I sit down and talk to you
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tell me what's going on and if you don't
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really know you're kind of you're fing
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over a lot of people
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unfortunately for yourself so despite
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being friends of Billy Rogan didn't hold
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back his true thoughts but here's where
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things started to get really interesting
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after exposing Billy's lack of knowledge
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Rogan said something that reframed the
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entire conversation and this was the
00:02:43
moment that we started to realize that
00:02:45
this conversation was no longer just
00:02:47
about Billy it was about something much
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much bigger well again it's all very
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unfortunate but the good part of is I
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was introduced to you in your work and
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there you go very very extensive and
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very f fascinating and the videos that
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you sent me on Instagram I watch both of
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those today as well awes so really
00:03:06
really interesting stuff and one of the
00:03:07
things that I've gotten out of uh P I've
00:03:09
probably
00:03:10
watched probably 20 hours of your stuff
00:03:13
over the last couple weeks now if you
00:03:15
know about Rogan's past relationship
00:03:17
with Christianity then you already know
00:03:19
why this is such a big deal a few years
00:03:21
ago I compiled clips of Rogan ranting
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against Christianity in the Bible and it
00:03:24
was obvious that he not only resented
00:03:26
Christianity but he also had no idea
00:03:28
what he was talking about Christianity
00:03:30
the at the end of the day with no proof
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everything is mythology everything with
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no proof the whole thing's so stupid
00:03:37
just stop and think how stupid that is
00:03:39
but after these clips started spreading
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and jaill started hosting people like
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Jordan Peterson and is claimed that
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Christians were some of the nicest
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people that he's met his tone really
00:03:47
started to shift slowly one barrier
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between him and Christianity started to
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fall the emotional one but the second
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barrier the intellectual one remained
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Rogan simply didn't seem to be aware of
00:03:57
all of the credible historical evidence
00:03:58
for Christianity and instead repeated
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misconceptions for years like the claim
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that Constantine invented the New
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Testament understand mother what the
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difference is between the Old Testament
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and the New Testament because the New
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Testament is utter hores it's created by
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a bishop and a Emperor that's a fact
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that's like established religious fact
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the the New Testament was made by
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Constantine who was a Roman Emperor who
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wasn't even Christian but thankfully
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this podcast marked the first time that
00:04:27
someone like Wes was able to challenge
00:04:28
those misconceptions directly and Rogan
00:04:30
himself brought this up how does uh
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Constantine fit into this and Wes
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responded by going through tons of
00:04:36
history on Constantine and his
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involvement in establishing the New
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Testament Cannon helping Rogan to see
00:04:41
his errors and another objection that
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Rogan repeated over the years was that
00:04:44
at the Council of NAA this happened the
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New Testament is weird because like
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Constantine and a bunch of Bishops
00:04:49
decided what the Council of NAA they
00:04:51
just made it they were like Hey we're
00:04:53
going to pick this imagine this is what
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I think God said I don't think God said
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that bro let get rid thankfully Rogan
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brought this question directly to West
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are there any books that were decid and
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and how do they pick the order that
00:05:05
these these stories are in the Bible and
00:05:08
are there any books that were excluded
00:05:10
and since Rogan always seems to be
00:05:11
referencing the Gnostic Gospels Wes
00:05:13
responded to his question by saying this
00:05:15
the Gospel of Thomas Gospel of Truth
00:05:17
Gospel of the Hebrews Gospel of you know
00:05:19
these ones that we kind of hear about
00:05:20
Mary Judas that the reason we know that
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they're not associated with the names
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that are attached to them is because
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they're being written in times when
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those people were dead and they have
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these rings of pagan philosophy that are
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incorporated into them which is
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completely foreign to first century
00:05:37
Judaism but perhaps Rogan's biggest
00:05:39
misconception about Christianity is that
00:05:41
the Bible has been corrupted over time
00:05:43
which Wes was able to clarify through
00:05:44
the significance of the Dead Sea scroll
00:05:46
Discovery So when you say the book of
00:05:48
Isaiah is intact how similar is it to
00:05:51
the book of Isaiah that's in the Bible
00:05:53
so that one is fascinating so this isn't
00:05:56
true for all of the Dead Sea Scrolls but
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when we discovered the great Isaiah
00:05:59
scroll previous to that the earliest
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copy of Isaiah that we had was uh in the
00:06:04
Matic text which is in the Middle Ages
00:06:06
waa yeah so it was literally a thousand
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years and the thing that really shocked
00:06:10
Scholars was that it was word for word
00:06:12
identical to the Matic text Wes then
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showed Rogan this on the screen and the
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impact was immediate word for word word
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for word wow yeah and nearly 2 hours
00:06:21
later Rogan brought it up again
00:06:23
revealing how impactful it was to him
00:06:25
when you were saying that the book of
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was it the book of Isaiah yeah that the
00:06:29
same book is exactly the same that's a
00:06:32
miracle that's pretty crazy yeah that is
00:06:34
crazy if you just imagine the sheer
00:06:36
number of illiterate people the the
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sheer number of days that have to go by
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where people are telling the story
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exactly the same and that it's entrusted
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in the hands of these very few people
00:06:47
that are so dedicated to it that they
00:06:48
get the exact words right A Thousand
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Years Later pretty bananas but
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immediately after this is where in my
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opinion things got far more interesting
00:06:56
when they talked about the historical
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evidence for the resurrection of Jesus
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this became a pivotal moment as you may
00:07:01
or may not know the resurrection of
00:07:03
Jesus is the event that determines the
00:07:05
truth of Christianity as the Apostle
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Paul says in scripture if Christ had not
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been raised then our hope is in vain and
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so is our faith so this is why what West
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said next was so important well I mean
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that is kind of the crazy thing about
00:07:17
Christianity where you have this Jewish
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itinerate guy who's walking around for
00:07:21
Century Roman occupied Judea he's making
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some pretty audacious claims claims to
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be God himself and then he predicts his
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own death and resurrection and then his
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dis deciples are they think it's over
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like they're like he's dead we're done
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and then they go from a scared men in an
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upper room to completely overhauling the
00:07:38
Roman World in only a couple hundred
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years because of this claim that they
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say they saw Jesus resurrected like
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there's something different that goes on
00:07:47
there that they're like this is a
00:07:48
miracle right dead people don't usually
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rise from the dead and as West says this
00:07:52
you can hear Rogan's curiosity starting
00:07:54
to Peak so what is your personal belief
00:07:58
when it comes to the res direction do
00:08:00
you have a belief or do you just try to
00:08:03
interpret the text and try to see what
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is the message well I think so as a
00:08:08
historian I do think it is a historical
00:08:10
question you have a guy who objectively
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lived he objectively died and then
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individuals close to his inner circle
00:08:16
claim that they see him not dead right
00:08:19
again but it's hard when you're dealing
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with illiterate populations you're
00:08:24
dealing with thousands of years of time
00:08:26
you're dealing with an oral tradition
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it's very difficult for anybody who
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thinks of themselves as an intelligent
00:08:32
person who's secular to even entertain
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the possibility that someone died and
00:08:37
come back to life and I get that but
00:08:39
we've already talked about the fact that
00:08:40
we don't think that the only thing that
00:08:41
exists is matter and motion we as in you
00:08:43
and I right like we believe that there's
00:08:45
something else going on in this world
00:08:47
that's a little bit crazy there's
00:08:49
something else and and that to I think
00:08:51
exclude that I think excludes something
00:08:53
that you're kind of putting blinders on
00:08:55
for and you do have I mean you're right
00:08:57
in terms of all of the these ient
00:08:59
conventions and the ways that things
00:09:01
were spread around but the gospels are
00:09:02
written in the lifetime of the
00:09:03
eyewitnesses and they're written in this
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period of time where you have groups of
00:09:07
individuals who could have fact checked
00:09:08
those things but Rogan pushes back
00:09:10
repeating an objection that one of his
00:09:12
atheist guests made which was that maybe
00:09:14
Jesus wasn't really dead and Wes
00:09:16
responds by pointing out the fact that
00:09:17
the Romans were experts in crucifixion
00:09:19
so it's incredibly unlikely that someone
00:09:22
could survive and personally I've always
00:09:23
thought about it this way if Jesus did
00:09:25
somehow survive his crucifixion no one
00:09:27
would have been convinced that Jesus was
00:09:29
actually resurrected in a new
00:09:30
resurrected body that he promised his
00:09:32
disciples that they would one day have
00:09:33
as well neither would anyone have been
00:09:35
convinced that he was actually raised
00:09:37
from the dead as the Son of God okay but
00:09:39
now that we're 3 hours into the
00:09:40
conversation Rogan made a claim that
00:09:43
actually shocked me when he said it wow
00:09:46
that's that's really amazing it's such a
00:09:48
complex and fascinating subject it
00:09:51
really is and I think it's because of
00:09:53
the barrier to entry is so it's so high
00:09:56
there's so much to learn there's so much
00:09:57
to dig D that most people barely scratch
00:10:00
the surface of this stuff right because
00:10:02
it's like real easy to lean into the fun
00:10:04
stuff it's real easy to lean into the
00:10:06
Anunnaki stuff but the actual real that
00:10:09
we know is 100% the accounts of people
00:10:13
that Liv back then that that to me is as
00:10:16
fascinating if not more than even we
00:10:18
were made by aliens like all of it is
00:10:20
bizarre now if you know Joe Rogan you
00:10:22
know that he loves ancient alien
00:10:24
theories so for him to say that the
00:10:25
historical evidence for Christianity is
00:10:27
just as fascinating is a really big deal
00:10:30
but at this point we're almost 3 hours
00:10:32
in and there's only 15 minutes left in
00:10:33
the podcast and it was at the 3-h hour
00:10:35
mark that I thought to myself you know
00:10:37
this apologetic stuff is cool and it
00:10:39
seems to be really needed since Rogan
00:10:40
hasn't been exposed to it but I know
00:10:41
that the podcast is going to be wrapping
00:10:43
up soon and I just wish that Rogan could
00:10:45
have at least heard the gospel and then
00:10:47
seemingly out of nowhere with less than
00:10:49
10 minutes left in the podcast Wes asked
00:10:51
Rogan a question that changed everything
00:10:52
seemingly sensing that he was running
00:10:54
out of time he asked Rogan the question
00:10:56
that we all wanted to know the answer to
00:10:58
in all of this what do you think of
00:10:59
Jesus like in terms of your own like
00:11:02
journeying and trying to find answers to
00:11:05
Ultimate questions what do you think of
00:11:07
the historical person of Jesus and
00:11:09
Rogan's response was revealing well it
00:11:11
certainly seems like there's a lot of
00:11:13
people that believe that there was this
00:11:15
very exceptional human being that
00:11:18
existed so the question is what does
00:11:20
that mean does does it mean he was the
00:11:22
son of God does it mean he was just some
00:11:24
completely unique human being that had
00:11:27
this vision of humanity and this way of
00:11:31
educating people and spreading this
00:11:34
ideology that would ultimately change
00:11:36
the way human beings interact with each
00:11:38
other forever so is he the Son of God
00:11:41
well are we all that's another question
00:11:43
right are do we all have that inside of
00:11:45
us do we all have that ability to change
00:11:47
everything around us inside of us do we
00:11:49
all have that unique connection to the
00:11:52
Divine and is he a representation of the
00:11:54
best version of that or was he an actual
00:11:57
person that was the son of God m
00:11:59
and isn't important yeah I don't know
00:12:02
what it can do to people is offer them a
00:12:05
very unique way to change the way they
00:12:08
feel about the world itself so it does
00:12:11
work if you do live like a Christian and
00:12:15
you do follow the principles of Christ
00:12:17
you will have a richer more love-filled
00:12:19
life so it is true but you have to
00:12:22
submit to this concept that this guy was
00:12:25
the child of God who came down to earth
00:12:27
let himself be crucified came back the
00:12:29
dead explained a bunch of stuff for
00:12:30
people and then said all right see you
00:12:32
when I come back so at this point it was
00:12:33
clear that Rogan said what he's been
00:12:35
saying for a while now that Jesus may
00:12:36
have been a good guy and that
00:12:38
Christianity is a good framework for
00:12:39
living but this view seems to stal from
00:12:41
his conversations with people like
00:12:42
Jordan Peterson who often present Jesus
00:12:44
as a useful archetype rather than the
00:12:46
Son of God but what Rogan didn't know
00:12:48
was that his statement was actually
00:12:49
perfectly set up for West to present the
00:12:51
gospel in a way that Rogan and millions
00:12:53
of listeners may have never heard before
00:12:56
I think I really like the way that
00:12:58
Jordan Peterson articulates it but I
00:13:00
think he misses the force for the trees
00:13:02
how so in that he sees Jesus as an
00:13:05
archetype and I don't think actually
00:13:07
even Jesus gives you the opportunity to
00:13:09
see him as the archetype cuz I I both I
00:13:11
have this LoveHate relationship with all
00:13:12
of Peterson stuff because he's he seems
00:13:15
to get so much right where he walks up
00:13:17
to the line but he doesn't want to cross
00:13:18
over and is the crossover you think
00:13:20
connected to a life in Academia or what
00:13:23
do you think it is I I wonder and I'd
00:13:25
love to talk to him about this like how
00:13:27
do you remedy this issue that cuz he
00:13:30
seems to think that the concept of Jesus
00:13:33
as an example is more important than the
00:13:37
actual Flesh and Blood first century
00:13:39
itinerate Jewish preacher who was
00:13:41
crucified and rose from the dead
00:13:43
physically which is the claim of the
00:13:45
gospels and the rest of the New
00:13:46
Testament that that's that's an example
00:13:48
for us to look on and live by but I I
00:13:51
actually think that Jesus condemns
00:13:54
moralism and ultimately what I see
00:13:56
Peterson doing is looking at Jesus as a
00:13:58
moral example and if Jesus is nothing
00:14:00
but a moral example then you can save
00:14:02
yourself and you don't actually need a
00:14:03
savior and so I think actually Jesus
00:14:06
would have critiqued that cuz Jesus was
00:14:07
very against moralism and Rogan seeming
00:14:10
intrigued asked and what how does he how
00:14:12
do you define Jesus being against
00:14:15
moralism like what do you mean by that
00:14:16
exactly and here's where Wes was
00:14:18
probably like I'm glad you asked but
00:14:20
just when I thought that this podcast
00:14:21
was going to end without Rogan here in
00:14:23
the gospel little did Rogan know his
00:14:25
question would open him up to hearing
00:14:27
the gospel message well Jesus looks at
00:14:29
the religiosity of his day with like
00:14:31
particular groups like the Pharisees and
00:14:32
the Sadducees who are these other these
00:14:34
other groups of Jews during his day like
00:14:36
the Pharisees who are like lay Scholars
00:14:38
and the Sadducees who are professional
00:14:40
priest Scholars and he's constantly
00:14:42
critiquing the fact that they have this
00:14:45
hypocritical religiosity to them like
00:14:48
Jesus critiques them for that because he
00:14:50
says you're trying to do everything
00:14:52
right and you're missing the point so
00:14:54
when he he says you know you have heard
00:14:56
it said do not commit murder but I say
00:14:58
to you and anybody who Harbors a hate
00:15:00
for their brother in their heart has
00:15:02
already committed murder and and what
00:15:04
he's getting to is like what's the
00:15:05
intention what's the meaning of the law
00:15:07
that God gives to you because the law is
00:15:09
like a mirror it shows you how dirty you
00:15:11
are but his critique is he's like you
00:15:13
guys are trying to clean yourself with a
00:15:14
mirror that's stupid it's just going to
00:15:16
if anything it's going to make you more
00:15:17
messy like get in the shower the law is
00:15:20
not what cleans you the law is what
00:15:21
reveals that you're dirty and so in that
00:15:24
sense I think you know if Jesus is a
00:15:26
moral example it actually misses what I
00:15:29
Think Jesus actually said about what his
00:15:31
purpose was in that you can't do enough
00:15:35
to actually live up to the standard that
00:15:37
god holds you to and so if you keep
00:15:39
striving you're you're actually going to
00:15:41
wear yourself out and be exhausted and
00:15:43
right after that they ended the podcast
00:15:44
but one thing that I want you to know is
00:15:46
that most of the responses that Wes gave
00:15:47
to Rogan's objections weren't things
00:15:49
that required a PhD now the other stuff
00:15:51
that they got into that goes far deeper
00:15:52
that does require PhD but when he's
00:15:54
responded to Rogan's objections those
00:15:56
were things that anyone with a basic
00:15:58
understanding of a apologetics can learn
00:16:00
and use so if you feel intimidated by
00:16:01
conversations like this don't be you too
00:16:03
can learn to defend your faith
00:16:05
intellectually and honestly and to help
00:16:07
you below I've linked some resources
00:16:08
from beginner friendly to more advanced
00:16:10
that can help you to get started my
00:16:12
prayer is that God uses this
00:16:13
conversation to bring the truth of
00:16:14
Christianity not just the Rogan but to
00:16:17
his millions of listeners Billy Carson's
00:16:18
audience and the millions of Skeptics
00:16:20
and anyone else that's watching this and
00:16:22
for those of you that are Christians I
00:16:23
hope that it inspires you to be ready to
00:16:25
give an answer for the hope that is
00:16:27
within you now if you made it this far
00:16:28
go ahead and hit the like button because
00:16:30
it really does help more people see this
00:16:32
and if you want to go deeper go ahead
00:16:33
and check out one of these videos and
00:16:35
I'll see you guys next time
