An Education for All?

00:32:43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMY6zEYv7Wg

概要

TLDRThis debate discusses a specialized school that aims to address the issue of educational inequality by targeting low-income students in the Niagara region. Contributions from educational experts reveal a spectrum of opinions. Some panelists appreciate the school for addressing systemic issues and offering targeted support to disadvantaged students. However, there is concern that such schools may lead to increased segregation by isolating students based on socioeconomic status rather than integrating them within existing public systems. The risks of stigmatization and the need for a holistic, inclusive approach to education, which alleviates poverty's impact on student success without creating separate identities, are heavily emphasized. The discussion also touches on systemic diversity across the educational board, raising questions about the viability of such specialized sections addressing broader challenges.

収穫

  • 🎓 The debate centers on a specialized school for low-income students in Niagara.
  • 🤔 Panelists have mixed views on the school's potential effectiveness.
  • 🚸 Concerns about segregation and stigmatization are significant.
  • 🚌 The school offers transportation to attract students from across the region.
  • 📚 The program is compared to California's charter schools for intensive learning.
  • 💡 There's emphasis on needing comprehensive anti-poverty strategies.
  • 🏫 Annie Kidder suggests enhancing support within public schools.
  • 🌍 The broader implication of specialized schools on public education is debated.
  • 📊 EQAO performance as a measure of success is critically discussed.
  • 🔍 Scrutiny of this non-traditional schooling approach is considerable.

タイムライン

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The debate features Annie Kidder, Joseph Lessa, Rebecca Coulter, and Doretta Wilson discussing the concept of a 'poor school' aimed at helping underprivileged students in the Niagara region. Rebecca expresses ambivalence, emphasizing the need for anti-poverty strategies rather than separate schooling. Joseph highlights the hyperbolic reaction to the school and the flawed notion that life is not segregated. The discussion also touches on common schooling benefits being disproportionately experienced by those already benefiting from the system.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Annie argues against the school, expressing concern about the segregation it might cause and the need for supportive measures for lower-income students to be integrated into all schools rather than isolated. Doretta sees potential in the model, noting it offers a practical attempt to aid students from less affluent backgrounds, using a structured approach akin to a successful model from California. Concerns are raised about stigma and limited access for students in need.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    The conversation delves into the larger question of whether poverty affects educational success, with Joseph noting its substantial impact. Discussion moves to the politics of drawing attention to inequality and whether isolating students in such schools is beneficial or if it perpetuates other systemic issues. Annie emphasizes supporting public education within communities and addressing issues more holistically than just through one isolated solution.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    The debate transitions into discussing the proliferation of specialized and alternative schools within the public system. There is a mix of opinions on whether schools catering to specific identities and interests benefit the education system. Joe points out that focusing on high-income benefiting schools is crucial, emphasizing that power dynamics and privilege shape educational stratification.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Discussion shifts to how multiculturalism and different educational approaches challenge the notion of a one-size-fits-all system. Rebecca supports the idea of bringing diverse groups together to foster understanding, cautioning against too much fragmentation. Annie and the panelists engage in a discussion about the role of public schools in addressing societal differences.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:32:43

    The conversation closes with reflections on education's public versus private good, contemplating the role of multicultural programs and specialized identities within public schooling. The potential dismantling of specialized programs, like the Catholic Board, is debated in light of these individual schools. The session ends with a call for more inclusive, flexible educational solutions that address diverse learning needs across the board.

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よくある質問

  • What is the main topic of the discussion?

    The main topic is the creation of a specialized school in Niagara for low-income students and its implications.

  • Who are the participants in the debate?

    Participants include Annie Kidder, Joseph Flessa, Rebecca Coulter, and Doretta Wilson.

  • What is the purpose of the new school being discussed?

    The school aims to support students from low-income families and help them pursue post-secondary education.

  • How do the debaters feel about the new school?

    Opinions are mixed; some see it as a positive step, while others express concerns about segregation and stigmatization.

  • What is one major concern about the school?

    A major concern is that the school may potentially segregate students based on socioeconomic status.

  • Are specialty schools a topic of concern in this discussion?

    Yes, the panel discusses the proliferation of specialty schools and their implications for public education.

  • Has there been similar educational initiatives elsewhere?

    Yes, the school is compared to charter schools in California that focus more time on task.

  • What are the prospects of such a model of schooling according to the debaters?

    It's debated; some see potential if modeled correctly, while others are skeptical.

  • What alternative does Annie Kidder suggest instead of specialized schools?

    Annie suggests providing extra support within existing public schools instead of creating specialized schools.

  • What is a suggested benefit of the specialized program structure?

    Supporters argue it allows for focused instruction and could reduce the dropout rate for low-income students.

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  • 00:00:05
    and joining us now on the debate
  • 00:00:06
    annie kidder executive director with
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    people for education
  • 00:00:10
    joseph lessa professor at oise the
  • 00:00:12
    ontario institute for studies in
  • 00:00:14
    education
  • 00:00:15
    rebecca coulter professor in the faculty
  • 00:00:16
    of education at the university of
  • 00:00:18
    western ontario
  • 00:00:19
    and doretta wilson executive director at
  • 00:00:21
    the society for quality education
  • 00:00:24
    and a reminder we call this your agenda
  • 00:00:26
    because you are part of tonight's your
  • 00:00:27
    agenda broadcast
  • 00:00:29
    our fifth column blogger mike miner is
  • 00:00:30
    hosting a live chat on our inside agenda
  • 00:00:32
    blog
  • 00:00:33
    that's at tvo.org the agenda and on our
  • 00:00:36
    facebook page at facebook.com slash the
  • 00:00:38
    agenda
  • 00:00:39
    and as we always do you can send us a
  • 00:00:41
    tweet
  • 00:00:43
    your agenda jump in we'll put your
  • 00:00:44
    comments up on the screen throughout the
  • 00:00:46
    course of the broadcast
  • 00:00:48
    okay nice to have everybody here welcome
  • 00:00:50
    and i guess i should start by saying
  • 00:00:51
    joe first time on television ever
  • 00:00:54
    tonight that's right
  • 00:00:55
    congratulations thank you
  • 00:01:00
    anything should look and feel fabulous
  • 00:01:02
    uh i will tell you
  • 00:01:04
    you are on with three pros tonight so
  • 00:01:06
    get your elbows up kid
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    okay here we go i know lots of our
  • 00:01:10
    viewers i suspect have heard about what
  • 00:01:12
    they are calling quote unquote and this
  • 00:01:13
    is very unfortunate but this is what the
  • 00:01:15
    nickname has become
  • 00:01:16
    the poor school but here are some of the
  • 00:01:18
    more details so michael let's put these
  • 00:01:19
    up if we can
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    this is in niagara region as we said the
  • 00:01:22
    district school board niagara dsbn
  • 00:01:25
    academy
  • 00:01:26
    is what the school will be called and it
  • 00:01:27
    will begin offering grade six and seven
  • 00:01:29
    classes
  • 00:01:30
    this coming september in welland the
  • 00:01:32
    school's goal is to get its students
  • 00:01:34
    into post-secondary programs
  • 00:01:36
    all students must apply and they can be
  • 00:01:39
    bussed to the school from around niagara
  • 00:01:41
    region
  • 00:01:42
    how about this parents cannot have a
  • 00:01:44
    post-secondary degree
  • 00:01:46
    and originally they were required to
  • 00:01:48
    prove that they lived below the poverty
  • 00:01:49
    line they took that back now that's not
  • 00:01:50
    the case anymore
  • 00:01:52
    the school will offer an extended day a
  • 00:01:54
    breakfast program
  • 00:01:55
    and free tutoring and parents must
  • 00:01:58
    volunteer at the school okay
  • 00:02:01
    in alphabetical order let's go around
  • 00:02:03
    the table here and find out what we
  • 00:02:04
    think
  • 00:02:05
    rebecca is this a good idea
  • 00:02:08
    i i'm ambivalent about this um which is
  • 00:02:10
    unusual for me
  • 00:02:11
    yes it is because i know you um on the
  • 00:02:14
    whole i don't think it's a good idea
  • 00:02:16
    um i understand why the school board is
  • 00:02:18
    doing it when you're working in a time
  • 00:02:19
    of scarce resources and you're
  • 00:02:21
    you know grasping for different uh
  • 00:02:23
    solutions to problems and you've got the
  • 00:02:25
    pressures of the eqao tests hanging over
  • 00:02:27
    you and
  • 00:02:28
    all of those kinds of things going on i
  • 00:02:30
    think on the whole however
  • 00:02:31
    it's better to deal with what the
  • 00:02:34
    underlying
  • 00:02:35
    reasons are and that is to have an
  • 00:02:38
    anti-poverty strategy
  • 00:02:40
    rather than a schooling strategy and i
  • 00:02:42
    think it also
  • 00:02:43
    assumes that just because you get
  • 00:02:45
    through this school
  • 00:02:46
    and get into a post-secondary
  • 00:02:48
    institution you will then have a job
  • 00:02:50
    and as we know young people these days
  • 00:02:52
    are having trouble finding jobs even
  • 00:02:53
    when they have
  • 00:02:54
    master's degrees never mind you know any
  • 00:02:56
    anything else and so there
  • 00:02:58
    it's a very complicated issue okay and i
  • 00:03:00
    think on the whole
  • 00:03:01
    we should you know stick with public
  • 00:03:03
    education for all and
  • 00:03:05
    and keep children in their neighborhood
  • 00:03:06
    schools we're going to try and unpack
  • 00:03:08
    some of those themes throughout the
  • 00:03:08
    course of our time here joseph what do
  • 00:03:10
    you say on this
  • 00:03:11
    well what's been most interesting to me
  • 00:03:12
    to watch as a sort of observer of the
  • 00:03:14
    politics around
  • 00:03:15
    this school is the degree of hyperbole
  • 00:03:18
    that people have brought to the debate i
  • 00:03:20
    think
  • 00:03:20
    um emblematic of that is the star the
  • 00:03:22
    toronto star's editorial on this
  • 00:03:25
    used language like they're going to ship
  • 00:03:27
    the kids off to this particular school
  • 00:03:29
    and they said that you know life isn't
  • 00:03:31
    segregated so why should schools be
  • 00:03:34
    the claim that life isn't segregated is
  • 00:03:36
    manifestly untrue
  • 00:03:38
    and the star itself published the
  • 00:03:40
    holchansky report for example which
  • 00:03:42
    showed increasing economic
  • 00:03:44
    segregation within the city of toronto
  • 00:03:46
    so those claims are
  • 00:03:49
    themselves sort of not very accurate and
  • 00:03:52
    so
  • 00:03:52
    the degree of opposition has been
  • 00:03:54
    fascinating to watch
  • 00:03:55
    because it's based on a relatively
  • 00:03:58
    nostalgic notion of
  • 00:04:00
    common schooling i'm not against common
  • 00:04:02
    schooling
  • 00:04:03
    but i think that the proponents who
  • 00:04:06
    claim that
  • 00:04:07
    the benefits of common schooling are
  • 00:04:09
    typically the people who have benefited
  • 00:04:11
    from the system and this school is
  • 00:04:12
    designed
  • 00:04:13
    to address some of the needs from people
  • 00:04:14
    who aren't benefiting from the current
  • 00:04:16
    system
  • 00:04:17
    annie kidder is this a good idea no
  • 00:04:20
    there no ambivalence um but my
  • 00:04:23
    but what i really worry about what has
  • 00:04:25
    been amazing to me i agree about the
  • 00:04:26
    hyperbole part is that suddenly there's
  • 00:04:28
    a lot of hyperbole about
  • 00:04:30
    this school but there isn't about all
  • 00:04:32
    the other schools
  • 00:04:33
    and so i think all the other sort of
  • 00:04:36
    specialty schools and the move to more
  • 00:04:38
    and more and more specialty schools or i
  • 00:04:40
    want a special school like this and i
  • 00:04:41
    can go and you know create that one
  • 00:04:44
    and i think for the most part those
  • 00:04:45
    specialty schools have been made by
  • 00:04:47
    uh people like me people who you know
  • 00:04:50
    for whom the system was you know
  • 00:04:52
    it was relatively sort of easy to get
  • 00:04:54
    through the system and based on class in
  • 00:04:56
    a way
  • 00:04:56
    so to me this is like this is a part of
  • 00:04:59
    a continuum and that we
  • 00:05:00
    need to look at it this way i think
  • 00:05:02
    because obviously we do know that
  • 00:05:04
    uh kids from with
  • 00:05:07
    lower income families are more likely to
  • 00:05:10
    struggle at school for a whole raft of
  • 00:05:12
    reasons
  • 00:05:12
    i think we also know what things make a
  • 00:05:16
    difference in terms of how we can
  • 00:05:17
    support them
  • 00:05:18
    and i do believe we should be doing
  • 00:05:20
    those in all schools as opposed to
  • 00:05:21
    hiving it off into one school but i do
  • 00:05:23
    worry about
  • 00:05:24
    a kind of segregation that starts to go
  • 00:05:26
    on or separating all the kids
  • 00:05:28
    or kids either based on their their
  • 00:05:31
    interest their class their families
  • 00:05:33
    their
  • 00:05:33
    income uh whatever because i think that
  • 00:05:36
    we're missing
  • 00:05:37
    uh something that the public education
  • 00:05:39
    system notwithstanding the reality of
  • 00:05:41
    how segregated we are in our communities
  • 00:05:43
    now but that it has tried to do
  • 00:05:45
    and that it's important that it does but
  • 00:05:47
    i think just looking at the low-income
  • 00:05:49
    school
  • 00:05:49
    that everybody's been quite happy to
  • 00:05:51
    oppose uh
  • 00:05:53
    i think we need to look at all the other
  • 00:05:54
    ones too and that's when it gets really
  • 00:05:55
    scary for a lot of people
  • 00:05:56
    we'll do that in just a second doretti
  • 00:05:58
    your first kick at this what do you
  • 00:05:59
    think good idea bad idea
  • 00:06:00
    maybe maybe maybe it's a good idea maybe
  • 00:06:04
    it's a bad one it i think i agree
  • 00:06:06
    with joe i think there's been a lot of
  • 00:06:07
    hysteria around this
  • 00:06:09
    unfortunately the announcement of the
  • 00:06:11
    school wasn't very well communicated i
  • 00:06:13
    think
  • 00:06:14
    maybe the board should look at getting
  • 00:06:15
    some better pr people but
  • 00:06:18
    we know that kids from less affluent
  • 00:06:21
    backgrounds have more difficulty in
  • 00:06:22
    school they have higher dropout rate and
  • 00:06:24
    i think the school boards are trying to
  • 00:06:27
    address these problems that affect their
  • 00:06:30
    systems
  • 00:06:30
    and i think this is an attempt at the
  • 00:06:32
    school board to address
  • 00:06:34
    a problem that it identifies so worth
  • 00:06:35
    trying it's worth trying and i think
  • 00:06:37
    this school is modeled on
  • 00:06:39
    a california chartered school that
  • 00:06:42
    spends more time on task a longer school
  • 00:06:45
    day
  • 00:06:45
    more focused instruction in a way that
  • 00:06:48
    our regular school system is not set up
  • 00:06:50
    to do
  • 00:06:51
    so it might it might be worthy to make
  • 00:06:54
    sure that kids are all together in a
  • 00:06:55
    place where they won't be stigmatized
  • 00:06:57
    inside of a regular school so why not
  • 00:07:00
    have them in a school
  • 00:07:02
    that they choose to go to and that's
  • 00:07:03
    another big factor no one is shipping
  • 00:07:05
    anybody off to a place they don't want
  • 00:07:06
    to go to this is a school of choice it's
  • 00:07:09
    voluntary so parents would have to apply
  • 00:07:11
    and we just saw a tweet or an email come
  • 00:07:13
    up on the screen says we all care so
  • 00:07:14
    much about our children which is why
  • 00:07:16
    education is such a passionate topic for
  • 00:07:18
    so many people should
  • 00:07:19
    you know parents are i gather in the
  • 00:07:21
    niagara peninsula are considering this
  • 00:07:23
    right now rebecca you you get to
  • 00:07:24
    consider it and you get to apply for it
  • 00:07:27
    should part of the consideration that
  • 00:07:28
    parents bring to bear here be
  • 00:07:31
    will my children be stigmatized if they
  • 00:07:33
    go to this school
  • 00:07:34
    is that part of the consideration well i
  • 00:07:36
    think children are stigmatized
  • 00:07:38
    regardless of what school they go to
  • 00:07:40
    i don't think that that's quite the
  • 00:07:42
    question i think the question is you
  • 00:07:43
    know they're starting the school with
  • 00:07:45
    150 children
  • 00:07:46
    and at its maximum it's going to be
  • 00:07:48
    about i think the their pr
  • 00:07:50
    person said about 525 or something like
  • 00:07:52
    that there are 5400 children
  • 00:07:55
    identified in the niagara region living
  • 00:07:57
    below the poverty line
  • 00:07:59
    so it's a very small proportion of the
  • 00:08:02
    children who are going to
  • 00:08:03
    get any benefit assuming there is some
  • 00:08:05
    benefit and i guess i would say
  • 00:08:07
    i would say to doretta that you know
  • 00:08:09
    looking to california is an example of
  • 00:08:11
    a good schooling situation is probably
  • 00:08:13
    not the best and that at the
  • 00:08:15
    the kind of targeted you know small
  • 00:08:18
    targeted well because they're citing
  • 00:08:21
    proofs the proof
  • 00:08:21
    school in california this was a charter
  • 00:08:24
    school it was
  • 00:08:26
    school follows the same principle same
  • 00:08:28
    principles as in toronto the pathways to
  • 00:08:30
    education very successful program
  • 00:08:32
    that's used in region park the model
  • 00:08:34
    here though is san diego california yes
  • 00:08:36
    that is the model
  • 00:08:37
    and i think i mean i think that that's a
  • 00:08:38
    that's the kind of specific targeting on
  • 00:08:40
    a small population of children
  • 00:08:43
    um that's maybe not the best way to go
  • 00:08:44
    and and that's why i'm a supporter of
  • 00:08:46
    public education i think that the
  • 00:08:48
    examples that we see for example in
  • 00:08:49
    finland
  • 00:08:50
    which is a country which has universal
  • 00:08:52
    programs and tries to
  • 00:08:54
    to equalize the population is a much
  • 00:08:57
    better way to go and they have much
  • 00:08:58
    better results on the test
  • 00:09:00
    they have uh much more interesting kind
  • 00:09:02
    of creative schooling there the teachers
  • 00:09:04
    have much not like ours at all
  • 00:09:06
    right not nearly the not nearly as
  • 00:09:08
    multicultural population as we have
  • 00:09:10
    no but i'm just saying that universal
  • 00:09:11
    programming is this is something that
  • 00:09:13
    works right
  • 00:09:14
    they have an aboriginal population but
  • 00:09:17
    that speaks to the bigger question then
  • 00:09:19
    if there are
  • 00:09:19
    if a school board has an area where
  • 00:09:21
    there's a lot of of kids who have low
  • 00:09:24
    achievement
  • 00:09:24
    high dropout rate then trying to do
  • 00:09:27
    things the same way we've been doing
  • 00:09:28
    things for the past 50 years in schools
  • 00:09:30
    isn't working so maybe we need to expand
  • 00:09:33
    what they are doing at this school to a
  • 00:09:36
    broader
  • 00:09:36
    broader spectrum of the school system so
  • 00:09:38
    let me ask a basic question here how
  • 00:09:40
    much does a family's
  • 00:09:41
    income influence the successful or not
  • 00:09:45
    career of education that children have
  • 00:09:47
    okay so the way that this question is
  • 00:09:48
    going to get heard is
  • 00:09:50
    is you know is poverty destiny that's
  • 00:09:52
    how people are going to hear that
  • 00:09:53
    question
  • 00:09:54
    and obviously not there are going to be
  • 00:09:56
    lots of examples of people who have come
  • 00:09:58
    up from very difficult circumstances and
  • 00:10:00
    have been successful
  • 00:10:01
    however the larger research patterns
  • 00:10:03
    would show that
  • 00:10:04
    undeniably background conditions like
  • 00:10:07
    socioeconomic status
  • 00:10:08
    have an enormous impact on school
  • 00:10:10
    success so
  • 00:10:12
    has the district school board of niagara
  • 00:10:15
    identified a real problem by pointing
  • 00:10:16
    out the the
  • 00:10:18
    negative uh relationship between uh
  • 00:10:22
    the way that the school is addressing
  • 00:10:23
    the particular needs of kids affected by
  • 00:10:25
    poverty sure they have they've drawn
  • 00:10:26
    attention to a particular issue
  • 00:10:28
    and my sense is that that's what's
  • 00:10:30
    causing some of this controversy is
  • 00:10:32
    that drawing attention to inequality and
  • 00:10:34
    difference makes people very
  • 00:10:35
    uncomfortable
  • 00:10:36
    particularly when those people don't
  • 00:10:38
    have very much power annie you want to
  • 00:10:39
    follow
  • 00:10:40
    yeah because i think that i mean i it's
  • 00:10:42
    funny because i think we all agree
  • 00:10:44
    about some pieces of this and i think
  • 00:10:46
    not only do we know
  • 00:10:48
    about the the impact of socioeconomic
  • 00:10:50
    status on just
  • 00:10:51
    on on your chances for being at risk but
  • 00:10:54
    i think there are lots of
  • 00:10:55
    programs wherever they are the states in
  • 00:10:58
    canada wherever that have shown
  • 00:11:00
    what does make a difference too so if
  • 00:11:02
    you look at something
  • 00:11:03
    like pathways and i have a problem with
  • 00:11:05
    pathways just because it's outside of
  • 00:11:07
    public education it relies on private
  • 00:11:08
    money and on
  • 00:11:09
    philanthropy but if you look at the
  • 00:11:11
    experience there where there is
  • 00:11:12
    intensive intensive support for kids um
  • 00:11:16
    it's expensive but it works it's a great
  • 00:11:18
    investment but they they're there
  • 00:11:20
    there's one-on-one
  • 00:11:22
    counseling there's work with the
  • 00:11:24
    families there's you know they're with
  • 00:11:26
    those kids every minute of the way all
  • 00:11:28
    through school then they're successful
  • 00:11:30
    right so i apologize if i can interrupt
  • 00:11:32
    it acknowledges that the high school is
  • 00:11:33
    broken
  • 00:11:34
    absolutely it leaves the high school
  • 00:11:36
    untouched
  • 00:11:37
    but they work with teachers they work
  • 00:11:39
    with it's their primary focus is working
  • 00:11:41
    with youth to support them to move
  • 00:11:42
    through a broken institution so in well
  • 00:11:44
    i mean i think it does both things i
  • 00:11:46
    don't think it does actually acknowledge
  • 00:11:47
    that the high school is
  • 00:11:48
    broken necessarily but what it does say
  • 00:11:51
    is that
  • 00:11:52
    kids don't live or families don't live
  • 00:11:54
    kind of in isolation from everything
  • 00:11:56
    else
  • 00:11:56
    you're in an ecosystem and every single
  • 00:11:58
    thing affects you and it says we have to
  • 00:12:00
    work on all of this
  • 00:12:01
    and so to to to decide i think to just
  • 00:12:04
    go and go we're going to go do this in
  • 00:12:06
    one school as opposed to looking at all
  • 00:12:08
    of the evidence and i think there's a
  • 00:12:09
    lot of evidence
  • 00:12:10
    about what works in terms of supporting
  • 00:12:12
    kids through school
  • 00:12:13
    and i agree with you there's lots of
  • 00:12:15
    things that we could be looking at about
  • 00:12:16
    what's going on inside those schools
  • 00:12:18
    um but i think this way where we
  • 00:12:20
    actually continually
  • 00:12:21
    sort of hive off or separate off instead
  • 00:12:24
    of going
  • 00:12:24
    we actually know it does cost money it
  • 00:12:27
    doesn't cost a lot of
  • 00:12:28
    people support let's do that let me try
  • 00:12:30
    this rebecca let me try this with you
  • 00:12:32
    those of us of a certain age remember
  • 00:12:34
    back in boston
  • 00:12:36
    you know 30 years ago 40 years ago was
  • 00:12:37
    it already bussing right the
  • 00:12:39
    the idea was to take poorer mostly black
  • 00:12:42
    kids out of poor neighborhoods and bust
  • 00:12:44
    bust them to better off i guess white
  • 00:12:47
    middle-class neighborhoods and the
  • 00:12:48
    converse as well actually
  • 00:12:50
    and it was controversial as hell but a
  • 00:12:52
    lot of people thought
  • 00:12:53
    you know if okay maybe poverty isn't
  • 00:12:55
    destiny but
  • 00:12:57
    there's certainly a correlation there is
  • 00:12:59
    anybody talking about that as an option
  • 00:13:00
    for ontario right now
  • 00:13:02
    for poor kids bust them somewhere else
  • 00:13:04
    bust them to a better off neighborhood
  • 00:13:05
    anybody that's doing that i know in some
  • 00:13:07
    states they are
  • 00:13:08
    busting kids based on income not by race
  • 00:13:11
    anymore by
  • 00:13:12
    income i think north carolina tried it
  • 00:13:13
    in some school districts
  • 00:13:15
    and the only objection to it was
  • 00:13:17
    typically parents said well i don't
  • 00:13:19
    really want my children on a bus
  • 00:13:21
    going far away i mean it's a natural uh
  • 00:13:23
    reaction but that idea would that be
  • 00:13:24
    preferable to this
  • 00:13:25
    well then if you ask yourself in toronto
  • 00:13:28
    that's like taking kids from rosedale
  • 00:13:29
    and busting them to rexdale and kids
  • 00:13:31
    from malvern and taking them to the
  • 00:13:32
    king's way i mean is that
  • 00:13:34
    what that's what it may mean if you want
  • 00:13:36
    to equalize people by income but is that
  • 00:13:38
    really what you want to do or
  • 00:13:40
    do you want to make sure that schools
  • 00:13:42
    are doing the right things that they
  • 00:13:43
    should be doing from the very beginning
  • 00:13:45
    for all children right and i you know
  • 00:13:48
    some kids need
  • 00:13:49
    need something extra so not all kids
  • 00:13:51
    need the same things all the time
  • 00:13:53
    but maybe maybe the other question here
  • 00:13:55
    the different
  • 00:13:56
    question is is about difference is is
  • 00:13:59
    how do you have
  • 00:14:00
    a system that's a system that's filled
  • 00:14:02
    with a
  • 00:14:03
    billion different kinds of kids uh in
  • 00:14:05
    many many ways so
  • 00:14:07
    they're they you know want different
  • 00:14:09
    things they learn differently they think
  • 00:14:11
    differently they have different
  • 00:14:12
    interests they come from different kinds
  • 00:14:14
    of families
  • 00:14:14
    and we got a problem right because
  • 00:14:16
    there's for the most part one system
  • 00:14:18
    and there's for the most part one school
  • 00:14:20
    down the street which i
  • 00:14:21
    i still wish that would be the school
  • 00:14:24
    that most
  • 00:14:25
    mostly we would go to and really the
  • 00:14:27
    thing that the system struggles with is
  • 00:14:29
    that
  • 00:14:30
    and and i think right now the reaction
  • 00:14:33
    to that difference
  • 00:14:34
    is to divide it up more and more and if
  • 00:14:35
    we look at the united states schools are
  • 00:14:37
    becoming
  • 00:14:38
    more and more and more segregated rather
  • 00:14:39
    than the other way let me follow up on
  • 00:14:41
    this because you talked about actually
  • 00:14:42
    these specialty schools a little bit
  • 00:14:44
    earlier and we got a list of them here
  • 00:14:45
    our producer mark rosen's put this list
  • 00:14:47
    together
  • 00:14:48
    and michael smith our director if you
  • 00:14:49
    would let's bring this up so we can show
  • 00:14:50
    everybody we're calling this graphic a
  • 00:14:52
    school for everyone
  • 00:14:53
    if you go in the toronto district school
  • 00:14:55
    board and you know obviously you meet
  • 00:14:57
    certain criteria you might find yourself
  • 00:14:59
    at an afrocentric school
  • 00:15:00
    or an aboriginal school or a lesbian gay
  • 00:15:03
    bisexual transgendered school
  • 00:15:06
    the hamilton wentworth district school
  • 00:15:07
    board offer also offers
  • 00:15:09
    single gender classes the greater essex
  • 00:15:12
    county district school board
  • 00:15:14
    offers how about this bilingual arab
  • 00:15:16
    arabic
  • 00:15:17
    english language classes direto we
  • 00:15:20
    creating too many of these kind of
  • 00:15:21
    specialty schools no i wish we'd create
  • 00:15:24
    some that
  • 00:15:24
    fit better instructional practice and
  • 00:15:27
    traditional model for some parents that
  • 00:15:28
    are looking for those that they have to
  • 00:15:29
    go out to public
  • 00:15:31
    private education to find those that
  • 00:15:32
    would be nice to have some of those as
  • 00:15:34
    well
  • 00:15:34
    if you don't object to this uh no i
  • 00:15:36
    think people should have a choice
  • 00:15:38
    and there should be lots of alternatives
  • 00:15:40
    the edmonton model of providing
  • 00:15:42
    many many more alternative schools seems
  • 00:15:44
    to be very very successful
  • 00:15:46
    parents are satisfied achievement is
  • 00:15:48
    improving
  • 00:15:50
    they've focused on the academic side of
  • 00:15:53
    things yet providing
  • 00:15:54
    people with lots of alternatives parents
  • 00:15:55
    are given a passport in edmonton for
  • 00:15:57
    example they don't have to go to their
  • 00:15:58
    local neighborhood school
  • 00:16:00
    and the the the 1950s i guess leave it
  • 00:16:04
    to beaver idea that everybody's just
  • 00:16:05
    going to walk two blocks to their
  • 00:16:07
    neighborhood school
  • 00:16:08
    is a very uh large city way of thinking
  • 00:16:11
    nowadays because what what happens in a
  • 00:16:13
    rural
  • 00:16:13
    rural community where kids by by nature
  • 00:16:16
    get on a bus and have to go to the one
  • 00:16:18
    school joe what do you think about it
  • 00:16:20
    for one second just about the list that
  • 00:16:21
    really on that list should be
  • 00:16:23
    the alternative school though you know
  • 00:16:26
    there's there's a
  • 00:16:27
    there are way more schools
  • 00:16:31
    the ib schools where you have to pay 20
  • 00:16:32
    or 1200
  • 00:16:36
    baccalaureate schools we have rosedale
  • 00:16:37
    school for the arts french immersion
  • 00:16:39
    french french immersion
  • 00:16:40
    i mean there's there is a range what's
  • 00:16:42
    interesting about this debate about
  • 00:16:43
    these
  • 00:16:43
    you you're so you've selected in the
  • 00:16:45
    tdsb the identity based programs
  • 00:16:48
    which make because two of them at least
  • 00:16:50
    are race-based make people very
  • 00:16:52
    uncomfortable um i think that's a sort
  • 00:16:54
    of agreed upon canadian norm
  • 00:16:55
    conversations about race are very
  • 00:16:57
    uncomfortable right
  • 00:16:58
    so uh you've drawn attention to the most
  • 00:17:00
    controversial programs but again
  • 00:17:02
    the lens is pointed down the the sort of
  • 00:17:04
    hierarchy of power
  • 00:17:06
    and not up so we are not paying
  • 00:17:07
    attention as annie just said to
  • 00:17:09
    the sort of stratification of the
  • 00:17:11
    program of public education
  • 00:17:13
    which benefits high income people so
  • 00:17:15
    things like ib
  • 00:17:17
    french immersion arts based schooling
  • 00:17:19
    which are identifiably demographically
  • 00:17:22
    benefiting certain groups so if we're
  • 00:17:24
    going to talk
  • 00:17:25
    better off groups yeah so if we're going
  • 00:17:26
    to talk about you know the
  • 00:17:28
    the balkanization of schooling in
  • 00:17:30
    toronto talk about the whole thing
  • 00:17:32
    i would rather us look at up the scale
  • 00:17:34
    of power to the people who have the most
  • 00:17:36
    influence in these conversations not
  • 00:17:37
    down at the people who have the least
  • 00:17:39
    okay i really agree with that and i
  • 00:17:41
    think it's really kind of
  • 00:17:42
    a cheat to go we're just going to look
  • 00:17:43
    at this and not actually own up
  • 00:17:46
    to where the real thing is happening and
  • 00:17:48
    it's really for my kids
  • 00:17:49
    fair point so rebecca this this kind of
  • 00:17:52
    i've heard the word tonight
  • 00:17:53
    balkanization of the public school
  • 00:17:55
    system
  • 00:17:55
    you're not a fan i assume i i
  • 00:17:59
    their strengths and weaknesses to that
  • 00:18:01
    approach there are some very good things
  • 00:18:02
    about it
  • 00:18:03
    but i agree with joe that it's a very
  • 00:18:05
    much a school for the privileged in
  • 00:18:07
    essence
  • 00:18:08
    the choices because you have to be able
  • 00:18:10
    to take your children there you have to
  • 00:18:11
    be able to provide certain kinds of
  • 00:18:12
    things
  • 00:18:13
    i think the same thing could be said
  • 00:18:14
    about the well in school i looked at the
  • 00:18:16
    application form for the parents who
  • 00:18:17
    want to send children to that school
  • 00:18:19
    and it's so coached in middle class
  • 00:18:21
    language um it
  • 00:18:22
    was it was very very interesting and the
  • 00:18:24
    parents have to commit to volunteering
  • 00:18:26
    for a certain number of hours
  • 00:18:28
    what do you mean coach the middle class
  • 00:18:29
    language well it's you know that the
  • 00:18:31
    students already have to be performing
  • 00:18:33
    at their grade level right so
  • 00:18:36
    it's taking it's it's creaming off a
  • 00:18:38
    certain number of children from the from
  • 00:18:40
    the top of the
  • 00:18:41
    you know the top of the pool as it were
  • 00:18:44
    and then it's requiring parents to be
  • 00:18:45
    volunteers which
  • 00:18:46
    pays no attention at all to what it's
  • 00:18:48
    actually like to live in poverty
  • 00:18:50
    and so if a mother has small children at
  • 00:18:53
    home but no access to affordable daycare
  • 00:18:56
    and yet has to go into the school to
  • 00:18:57
    volunteer that's not taken into account
  • 00:18:59
    they're busting kids in from all over
  • 00:19:01
    the region um
  • 00:19:03
    parents who don't have access it's not
  • 00:19:05
    very good public transportation in the
  • 00:19:06
    niagara region i don't think
  • 00:19:08
    and and parents who don't have a car and
  • 00:19:10
    can't afford the gas they can't
  • 00:19:11
    volunteer in that school it
  • 00:19:12
    already limits even who among the poor
  • 00:19:16
    could go to the poor school and so that
  • 00:19:18
    you know there are all those kinds of
  • 00:19:20
    problems with it and that's why
  • 00:19:21
    you know a public system that's that's
  • 00:19:23
    more integrative
  • 00:19:24
    is is a is a better approach would you
  • 00:19:26
    acknowledge that those are some
  • 00:19:28
    shortcomings there are going to be
  • 00:19:29
    challenges for sure i
  • 00:19:30
    i agree with you that they they the
  • 00:19:32
    school will have to
  • 00:19:34
    be flexible and have to evolve as it
  • 00:19:37
    goes along
  • 00:19:38
    and i think that's what they'll end up
  • 00:19:39
    doing it's not going to be for poor kids
  • 00:19:41
    anymore i think
  • 00:19:41
    it is just parents who don't have a
  • 00:19:44
    post-secondary education
  • 00:19:46
    but yeah they'll have they'll have to
  • 00:19:48
    evolve these models have to adapt to
  • 00:19:50
    their local
  • 00:19:51
    to local needs but i think giving kids
  • 00:19:54
    finding
  • 00:19:55
    i give them credit for at least trying
  • 00:19:57
    to find a way to give
  • 00:19:58
    kids who need some kind of advantage to
  • 00:20:01
    give them a leg up because
  • 00:20:02
    the solution of poverty is
  • 00:20:07
    you said right off the top no you don't
  • 00:20:08
    think this is a good idea
  • 00:20:10
    but surely you wouldn't you would grant
  • 00:20:12
    that the
  • 00:20:13
    public education system which isn't
  • 00:20:15
    really one single system it's four
  • 00:20:17
    systems and we'll talk about that in a
  • 00:20:18
    second
  • 00:20:19
    it can't do it conventionally for
  • 00:20:22
    everyone right there are going to be
  • 00:20:23
    people who just
  • 00:20:24
    yeah for whom it's not going to work no
  • 00:20:27
    yes and no i agree so then what we have
  • 00:20:29
    to have is kind of space
  • 00:20:31
    breathing room within our schools to
  • 00:20:32
    actually be able to be flexible within
  • 00:20:34
    the school so that instead of going
  • 00:20:36
    there's one way of doing things these
  • 00:20:38
    are our targets this is what education
  • 00:20:39
    is about a kind of narrow definition of
  • 00:20:41
    education
  • 00:20:42
    that you actually go within our schools
  • 00:20:44
    we're movable flexible we're going to
  • 00:20:45
    work together we're going to ensure if
  • 00:20:47
    we have a kid who's struggling
  • 00:20:48
    because either they need there's help
  • 00:20:50
    needed at home or there's social work
  • 00:20:52
    help or psycho
  • 00:20:53
    psychological help whatever it is more
  • 00:20:55
    food
  • 00:20:56
    one-on-one tutoring we're going to do
  • 00:20:58
    that because
  • 00:20:59
    that's really the job of public
  • 00:21:00
    education but it means that you have to
  • 00:21:02
    provide those resources there and you
  • 00:21:04
    have to connect school
  • 00:21:05
    to the rest of its world you can't go
  • 00:21:08
    i'll be interested to hear about the
  • 00:21:09
    poverty reduction strategy because you
  • 00:21:10
    can't just go
  • 00:21:11
    school's going to do it you have to
  • 00:21:13
    actually look at everything around that
  • 00:21:15
    and i think that's what we know more
  • 00:21:16
    than ever
  • 00:21:16
    anything but yes i think you can do it
  • 00:21:19
    within schools
  • 00:21:20
    not in the sort of olden days model not
  • 00:21:23
    in
  • 00:21:25
    you know leave it to beaver but in more
  • 00:21:28
    recognizing the incredible diversity and
  • 00:21:30
    going
  • 00:21:30
    but you are going to have to let go the
  • 00:21:32
    kind of it
  • 00:21:34
    it can't be quite so fixed and the
  • 00:21:36
    structure can't be quite so fast
  • 00:21:37
    let me pick up with joe on that because
  • 00:21:39
    there as i said
  • 00:21:41
    there is this assumption out there that
  • 00:21:42
    we have one
  • 00:21:44
    public school system that educates 95
  • 00:21:46
    and a half percent of our kids
  • 00:21:48
    which is not quite right because you
  • 00:21:50
    know since the beginning of the country
  • 00:21:51
    it's been
  • 00:21:52
    french and english uh public and
  • 00:21:55
    separate right
  • 00:21:56
    so we've always had these kind of
  • 00:21:57
    distinctions within the public school
  • 00:21:59
    system
  • 00:21:59
    going back a long way is this just kind
  • 00:22:01
    of the latest incarnation or chapter or
  • 00:22:04
    evolution
  • 00:22:05
    in all of that well what i think is
  • 00:22:06
    interesting i'm an immigrant to canada
  • 00:22:08
    and to see that kind of
  • 00:22:09
    from the united states so there from i
  • 00:22:11
    moved here from california
  • 00:22:12
    i grew up in ohio so to observe these
  • 00:22:15
    kinds of uh
  • 00:22:17
    these kinds of dilemmas would strike me
  • 00:22:18
    as particularly canadian how do we be
  • 00:22:20
    different and the same you know to see
  • 00:22:23
    the degree of controversy that is
  • 00:22:24
    generated by one small program
  • 00:22:26
    is fascinating in a country that lives
  • 00:22:28
    with these tensions all the time right
  • 00:22:30
    so i would agree with annie to as to a
  • 00:22:32
    certain extent that i believe
  • 00:22:34
    in a system that can acknowledge some
  • 00:22:37
    uh some sort of diversity and change and
  • 00:22:40
    and and different needs within a system
  • 00:22:43
    but i don't think
  • 00:22:44
    that uh uh i don't think that having one
  • 00:22:47
    the school site be
  • 00:22:49
    let me say it this way just having
  • 00:22:51
    people who are different under the same
  • 00:22:53
    roof does not create an integrated
  • 00:22:55
    school
  • 00:22:55
    sure right people will be stratified
  • 00:22:57
    within that school according to
  • 00:22:59
    observable patterns and one of the
  • 00:23:00
    patterns that will be most observable
  • 00:23:02
    are people who come from families where
  • 00:23:04
    their parents did not go to
  • 00:23:06
    post-secondary education are quite
  • 00:23:08
    unlikely to be in the stream that leads
  • 00:23:09
    to post-secondary okay put this up go
  • 00:23:11
    ahead michael you got an email here you
  • 00:23:13
    want me to pay attention to
  • 00:23:14
    let's see if we can get this up here
  • 00:23:16
    here it comes
  • 00:23:17
    cultural schools should be left to the
  • 00:23:20
    private sector that's not too
  • 00:23:22
    provocative is it
  • 00:23:24
    what do you think about that idea
  • 00:23:24
    rebecca well i'm opposed to the private
  • 00:23:28
    sector
  • 00:23:28
    getting involved in public education so
  • 00:23:30
    that's what i think about that
  • 00:23:31
    wouldn't be public education of the
  • 00:23:33
    private sector no it would be private
  • 00:23:34
    education but you know i mean somebody
  • 00:23:36
    has to protect the children too and we
  • 00:23:37
    all have a
  • 00:23:39
    social responsibility towards children
  • 00:23:41
    not just parents but all of us as
  • 00:23:42
    citizens have a responsibility towards
  • 00:23:44
    children
  • 00:23:45
    and so you know i would like to see
  • 00:23:48
    the public school system changes in ways
  • 00:23:51
    that we've been talking about
  • 00:23:53
    to be more flexible to be more
  • 00:23:54
    accommodating to allow people to move in
  • 00:23:57
    and out
  • 00:23:57
    but i do think that there need to be
  • 00:23:58
    some standards as well and he's got
  • 00:24:00
    nothing
  • 00:24:01
    well no no i think it's interesting what
  • 00:24:02
    you're saying because maybe education
  • 00:24:04
    part of it has to do with also the way
  • 00:24:07
    we've changed uh because and that's
  • 00:24:09
    maybe part of this incredible explosion
  • 00:24:11
    of many many schools for every different
  • 00:24:13
    kind of child of a middle or upper
  • 00:24:15
    upper middle class person but in a way
  • 00:24:17
    education's become this
  • 00:24:18
    individual uh right and this thing about
  • 00:24:20
    you know what can i get as an individual
  • 00:24:22
    for
  • 00:24:22
    for my kids out of school and it's kind
  • 00:24:24
    of lost a little bit that kind of civil
  • 00:24:26
    society piece
  • 00:24:28
    and i and it's very hard to say to
  • 00:24:29
    parents could you just sacrifice your
  • 00:24:31
    kid for the benefit of the
  • 00:24:32
    the greater good but on the other hand
  • 00:24:34
    public education was looked at
  • 00:24:36
    as a kind of public good and it's much
  • 00:24:38
    more now looked at
  • 00:24:40
    as a private good a private right a
  • 00:24:41
    private thing that you know if you look
  • 00:24:43
    at all that fundraising stuff that just
  • 00:24:45
    came out
  • 00:24:46
    that that's the biggest most you know
  • 00:24:48
    it's incredibly significant in terms of
  • 00:24:50
    how we think of public education let me
  • 00:24:52
    get you one
  • 00:24:53
    public school i'm inferring from this
  • 00:24:55
    email that
  • 00:24:57
    this person believes the public
  • 00:24:58
    education system should be one size fits
  • 00:25:00
    all
  • 00:25:01
    if you want an ib school a school for
  • 00:25:02
    the arts an afrocentric school
  • 00:25:04
    a lesbian gay bisexual transgender
  • 00:25:06
    school do it in the private system
  • 00:25:08
    what do you think look we have a
  • 00:25:11
    national policy of multiculturalism but
  • 00:25:14
    supposed to celebrate
  • 00:25:15
    all of our differences that we come
  • 00:25:16
    together yet we we want this
  • 00:25:18
    one-size-fits-all school system to try
  • 00:25:20
    and make us all into
  • 00:25:22
    to something that happens well that's
  • 00:25:24
    that's a good thing to
  • 00:25:25
    to to want to do and and that's one of
  • 00:25:28
    the things you hope to accomplish with
  • 00:25:29
    public with all education not just
  • 00:25:31
    public because frankly
  • 00:25:32
    privately schooled children have just as
  • 00:25:35
    much of
  • 00:25:35
    a good education as the as the public
  • 00:25:39
    schools do
  • 00:25:40
    so you know in one sense we want to uh
  • 00:25:43
    celebrate all of our differences but we
  • 00:25:45
    want us to all be the same so
  • 00:25:47
    you can't do both i mean there's going
  • 00:25:49
    to be that uh tension there all the time
  • 00:25:51
    that conflict and
  • 00:25:52
    people are you know human beings by
  • 00:25:55
    nature
  • 00:25:56
    they they feel more comfortable with
  • 00:25:58
    what they're familiar with
  • 00:25:59
    and they're going to i think but i mean
  • 00:26:01
    i think that that's where the problem
  • 00:26:02
    you know that's we need to have a lot of
  • 00:26:06
    children together with one another
  • 00:26:08
    to learn about differences i mean it
  • 00:26:10
    benefits
  • 00:26:11
    the white middle-class anglo-saxon child
  • 00:26:14
    to be in the same classroom with the
  • 00:26:16
    muslim child or you know other
  • 00:26:18
    other children from other cultures and
  • 00:26:19
    other places and and and i think that
  • 00:26:21
    that's a very important part of public
  • 00:26:23
    education is is to learn about other
  • 00:26:26
    cultures
  • 00:26:27
    to think critically about your world to
  • 00:26:29
    begin to expose i mean to ask these
  • 00:26:31
    questions to talk about these questions
  • 00:26:33
    about difference and so on
  • 00:26:35
    that's one of the important things i
  • 00:26:36
    think that public education ought to do
  • 00:26:38
    i'm not saying that it always does
  • 00:26:40
    but you know if we take a critical
  • 00:26:42
    approach and we we see education
  • 00:26:44
    as having particular kinds of purposes
  • 00:26:46
    that is to unpack
  • 00:26:47
    some of the truths about our society and
  • 00:26:49
    to be honest and not try to create a
  • 00:26:51
    bunch of little conformists
  • 00:26:53
    that we would be far better off doing
  • 00:26:55
    that than than segregating into
  • 00:26:57
    thousands of schools michael let's put
  • 00:26:59
    this graph up here this is the eqao
  • 00:27:00
    which is everybody's favorite acronym
  • 00:27:02
    oh boy uh equal what is it
  • 00:27:07
    thanks annie okay i'm going to take a
  • 00:27:10
    minute here to take us through this you
  • 00:27:11
    see
  • 00:27:12
    red bars and blue bars the red bar is
  • 00:27:14
    the ontario average
  • 00:27:16
    and you can see for reading and writing
  • 00:27:18
    and math it is such
  • 00:27:20
    the blue bar is this afric-centric
  • 00:27:23
    school that was opened
  • 00:27:24
    what is it a year or so ago in toronto
  • 00:27:27
    and they did the grade 3 eqao standards
  • 00:27:30
    test as well
  • 00:27:32
    and when you took these african canadian
  • 00:27:34
    kids and took them out of the general
  • 00:27:36
    system
  • 00:27:36
    so to speak and you put them in this
  • 00:27:39
    afric-centric curriculum
  • 00:27:41
    where the suspicion was the hope was
  • 00:27:43
    that they would do better
  • 00:27:45
    it looks like the test scores are
  • 00:27:46
    showing they've done better but steve
  • 00:27:48
    okay i'm sorry this is not good research
  • 00:27:51
    hey
  • 00:27:52
    are we comparing the same kids with with
  • 00:27:54
    what how they were doing before no
  • 00:27:56
    because they're only in grade three run
  • 00:27:57
    once and these are kids and this is
  • 00:27:59
    where i'll agree with doretta
  • 00:28:00
    whose parents chose parents are already
  • 00:28:03
    in that way
  • 00:28:04
    uh you know involved in their kids they
  • 00:28:06
    chose to send motivated they're
  • 00:28:08
    you know there's a bad thing no no no no
  • 00:28:11
    no this is where i agree about choice
  • 00:28:12
    so we're not measuring those kids
  • 00:28:15
    against themselves
  • 00:28:16
    and saying prove that that's a success
  • 00:28:17
    no not at all because it doesn't say
  • 00:28:19
    these kids were doing badly before and
  • 00:28:20
    now they're doing better
  • 00:28:21
    they may have been doing well before and
  • 00:28:22
    now they're doing well yeah now they're
  • 00:28:23
    doing better potentially but also
  • 00:28:25
    what this also sort of diagnoses that
  • 00:28:27
    the fact that we have this graphic up on
  • 00:28:28
    the screen is the degree of surveillance
  • 00:28:30
    that school has been put under this is a
  • 00:28:32
    small
  • 00:28:32
    program and it attracts national and
  • 00:28:35
    international attention
  • 00:28:36
    based on 16 kids 16 groups the amount of
  • 00:28:39
    scrutiny
  • 00:28:40
    placed on that school is quite
  • 00:28:41
    astonishing so you know as a person who
  • 00:28:44
    i like to think of myself as someone who
  • 00:28:45
    would support the school it's really
  • 00:28:47
    striking that we're
  • 00:28:48
    sort of having this conversation about
  • 00:28:49
    them i don't think it's necessarily bad
  • 00:28:51
    but if the numbers were half the
  • 00:28:52
    provincial average everybody would be
  • 00:28:53
    saying
  • 00:28:53
    this is a disaster we've got to shut
  • 00:28:55
    this thing down right away it's such a
  • 00:28:56
    ridiculous way of measuring whether or
  • 00:28:58
    not a school is working or not working
  • 00:28:59
    sorry but it really because i'm sure
  • 00:29:01
    with the low-income school and well and
  • 00:29:03
    they will the kids will do
  • 00:29:04
    because they're screened they're going
  • 00:29:06
    to do very well i don't think there's
  • 00:29:08
    any question about that
  • 00:29:09
    and especially in schools where parents
  • 00:29:12
    choose and if they
  • 00:29:13
    think better than if they were in their
  • 00:29:15
    regular school then all
  • 00:29:16
    all the better because i i that's what
  • 00:29:19
    we're going to do we hope children are
  • 00:29:20
    successful
  • 00:29:21
    but is the point is the jury is still
  • 00:29:22
    out on this school on this after
  • 00:29:23
    centuries
  • 00:29:24
    i i don't think that no i don't think it
  • 00:29:27
    is i don't think that is the point
  • 00:29:28
    because i think the point is i think we
  • 00:29:30
    know
  • 00:29:30
    that when parents are that involved and
  • 00:29:32
    that they go and choose to send their
  • 00:29:34
    kid to a different school and they're
  • 00:29:36
    with their child during their education
  • 00:29:38
    they're those kids do better
  • 00:29:40
    at school and they're going to do better
  • 00:29:41
    not necessarily compared to themselves
  • 00:29:43
    the year before
  • 00:29:44
    they do better than others and here's
  • 00:29:45
    the next question joe we on this program
  • 00:29:48
    in fact we have done
  • 00:29:49
    you know i think a considerable number
  • 00:29:50
    of programs on
  • 00:29:53
    portuguese canadian kids who
  • 00:29:54
    underachieved badly latino
  • 00:29:56
    canadian kids who underachieved badly
  • 00:29:58
    should the school boards across this
  • 00:30:00
    province be thinking about
  • 00:30:02
    this is not the right word but i was
  • 00:30:04
    going to say hiving off but that's not
  • 00:30:05
    the right word
  • 00:30:06
    creating a separate school for those
  • 00:30:08
    kids right so i'll answer the question
  • 00:30:10
    this way by saying that you know the
  • 00:30:11
    schools that we're talking about
  • 00:30:12
    are still working with the ontario
  • 00:30:14
    curriculum right the effort centric
  • 00:30:15
    school has an afrocentric curriculum and
  • 00:30:17
    perspective and shared values and all of
  • 00:30:18
    that
  • 00:30:19
    they're also working with the ontario
  • 00:30:20
    curriculum they're part of the public
  • 00:30:22
    system
  • 00:30:22
    i actually object to the idea that these
  • 00:30:24
    sort of culturally specific
  • 00:30:26
    programs should be part of the private
  • 00:30:27
    system because then there's no scrutiny
  • 00:30:29
    of what they're up to
  • 00:30:30
    right whereas if they are part of a
  • 00:30:32
    public system you've got sort of diverse
  • 00:30:34
    voices and you've got diverse
  • 00:30:36
    perspectives potentially from people who
  • 00:30:38
    weren't participating fully before
  • 00:30:40
    in the sort of institution of public
  • 00:30:42
    schooling now they see themselves in it
  • 00:30:44
    how is that a bad thing how is that you
  • 00:30:46
    know actually working against
  • 00:30:48
    the social cohesion it sounds like it
  • 00:30:50
    might create
  • 00:30:51
    a sense of increased investment but
  • 00:30:53
    should there be a portuguese school then
  • 00:30:55
    and
  • 00:30:56
    should there be different i mean there
  • 00:30:57
    are many i'm not aware of a specific
  • 00:30:59
    proposal for a portuguese school but i'm
  • 00:31:01
    ignorant of this issue the afrocenter
  • 00:31:02
    schooling proposal is a different one it
  • 00:31:04
    has a history that's
  • 00:31:05
    more than 20 years long um so you know
  • 00:31:08
    those two options weren't on the table
  • 00:31:10
    at the same time
  • 00:31:11
    the one that was on the table it was the
  • 00:31:13
    afrocentric schools so the red button or
  • 00:31:15
    green button should i go for the
  • 00:31:16
    afrocentric school
  • 00:31:17
    yes green button we're in the realm of
  • 00:31:18
    speculation here because i guess the
  • 00:31:20
    question is kind of are we on a slippery
  • 00:31:21
    slope here where
  • 00:31:22
    it's an afrocentric school today it's an
  • 00:31:24
    lgbt school tomorrow
  • 00:31:25
    maybe portuguese latinos just for rich
  • 00:31:28
    kids why don't we just
  • 00:31:38
    can i rephrase your question
  • 00:31:39
    sarcastically or or actually say well in
  • 00:31:41
    our last minute so go ahead okay
  • 00:31:42
    um what i hear you actually calling for
  • 00:31:44
    given that you're
  • 00:31:45
    not calling for anything or asking
  • 00:31:47
    questions that's the suspicion of around
  • 00:31:49
    these alternative programs is it's
  • 00:31:50
    calling for the dismantling of the
  • 00:31:51
    catholic board
  • 00:31:52
    if you object to the idea that
  • 00:31:53
    culturally specific programming
  • 00:31:55
    is a bad idea then there's one clear
  • 00:31:58
    objective
  • 00:31:59
    in ontario which is it would be to
  • 00:32:01
    dismantle the catholic board that is not
  • 00:32:02
    my position
  • 00:32:03
    but if you're going to be suspicious of
  • 00:32:05
    all of these alternative programs
  • 00:32:06
    that seems to be a logical concept and
  • 00:32:08
    we need to reconvene this group
  • 00:32:10
    for that program don't forget first
  • 00:32:12
    nations education
  • 00:32:13
    right that's that's very important
  • 00:32:18
    annie kidder people for education
  • 00:32:19
    rebecca coulter university of western
  • 00:32:21
    ontario
  • 00:32:22
    on the other side of the table doretta
  • 00:32:24
    wilson society for quality education
  • 00:32:26
    joe flesa making his tv debut from boise
  • 00:32:29
    wow and very well done very well done
  • 00:32:31
    thanks so much everybody that was great
  • 00:32:33
    support ontario's public television
  • 00:32:35
    donate at tvo.org
  • 00:32:42
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タグ
  • education
  • specialized schools
  • debate
  • socioeconomic status
  • public education
  • Niagara region
  • segregation
  • educational inequality
  • integration
  • policy