00:22:21
In past struggles for equality,
women have pointed to
00:22:24
a lopsided division of labour
00:22:26
such as housework
and raising children.
00:22:28
Last year in an article for
Harper's Bazaar,
00:22:30
journalist Gemma Hartley added
another category to that list,
00:22:34
emotional labour.
00:22:35
It went viral and she's now
expanded on the idea
00:22:38
in her new book, it's called
00:22:39
Fed Up: Emotional Labor, Women,
and the Way Forward.
00:22:43
And Gemma Hartley joins us now.
00:22:44
Hi, Gemma.
00:22:44
Hi.
00:22:45
It's nice to meet you.
00:22:46
Nice to meet you too.
00:22:48
Where did the term
"emotional labour" originate?
00:22:51
So it originated with
Arlie Hochschild
00:22:52
back in the 80's.
00:22:54
She coined the term to talk
about the emotion work that
00:22:58
woman were doing on the job as
airline attendants
00:23:01
and sort of showing how they
would have to put up this
00:23:04
false front to keep the
customers around them
00:23:08
comfortable and happy.
00:23:09
Like, very friendly,
very accommodating.
00:23:10
Yeah. Very friendly,
very accommodating.
00:23:13
You know, putting their
needs last,
00:23:15
really burying what they
actually felt
00:23:17
so that they could put forth
this really happy,
00:23:20
comfortable,
homey persona that, you know,
00:23:23
helps everyone feel at ease
during air travel.
00:23:26
Why was that done?
00:23:27
So, it was done because it,
you know,
00:23:30
it makes business better.
00:23:33
So airlines really wanted
their stewardesses to
00:23:37
go through this, you know,
intensive training
00:23:40
that showed them how to be,
00:23:41
basically,
the perfect hostess in the air
00:23:44
because a lot of people had
anxiety about flying
00:23:47
so they wanted to sooth that
anxiety,
00:23:50
but they took it really,
really far,
00:23:53
to the point where there were
like absolute breakdowns when
00:23:56
these women got off work.
00:23:59
Or they wouldn't know how to
turn it off.
00:24:02
They said that their smiles
seemed like,
00:24:04
plastered on their face all
the time,
00:24:06
even when they got home
00:24:08
and they were not in touch with
their actual emotion--
00:24:11
emotional state anymore.
00:24:13
Well, I want to show you
emotional labour in action.
00:24:16
You actually write about this
in your book
00:24:18
and this a clip from
When Harry Met Sally,
00:24:21
but it's not the other clip that
everybody usually shows
00:24:23
when she's like, "I'll have
whatever she's having."
00:24:25
(Laughing) Let's take a look,
shall we?
00:24:27
Sheldon, please roll.
00:24:29
You're together what,
three weeks?
00:24:30
A month.
00:24:34
How did you know that?
00:24:35
You take someone to
the airport,
00:24:36
it's clearly the beginning of
a relationship.
00:24:37
That's why I have never taken
anyone to the airport
00:24:39
at the beginning of
a relationship.
00:24:41
Why?
00:24:42
Because eventually things
move on
00:24:43
and you don't take someone to
the airport
00:24:45
and I never wanted anyone to
say to me,
00:24:46
"How come you never take me to
the airport anymore?"
00:24:49
It's amazing, you look like a
normal person,
00:24:53
but actually you are
the angel of death.
00:24:55
(Laughing)
00:24:56
NAM:
So why is that an example of
emotional labour?
00:24:59
GEMMA:
So this the type of work that we
do on a personal level
00:25:03
and taking someone to
the airport I thought was
00:25:07
a really great example because
00:25:09
it's the sort of mundane
everyday thing
00:25:12
that woman would
absolutely tend to
00:25:14
but men tend not to want to do.
00:25:17
I love how he says, you know,
00:25:18
"I don't want to set up that
expectation
00:25:22
only to get
the disappointment later."
00:25:24
Like, "I'll just disappoint her
from the beginning."
00:25:26
And then we know the bar for
emotional labour is set
00:25:28
very, very low in that
relationship.
00:25:31
Well, and earlier in
the book you point out
00:25:33
that the amount of time that
fathers spent on housework
00:25:36
more than doubled between
1965 and 2015,
00:25:41
and the amount of time they
spent of childcare
00:25:43
nearly tripled.
00:25:45
That's great, right?
Things are getting better.
00:25:46
Yeah, it's absolutely progress.
00:25:49
And the reason that I quote
those numbers is to show
00:25:52
that there is progress here
00:25:54
but emotional labour has
remained really sticky because
00:25:57
it's invisible work,
it's mental and emotional
00:25:59
and it's very difficult to
quantify that type of work.
00:26:03
So we can, you know, point to
all of these great advances
00:26:08
that we've made in, you know,
gender equality within the home,
00:26:11
but there's still this whole
side that has been left
00:26:14
unexplored for decades.
00:26:17
You also make the assertion that
emotional labour
00:26:19
is part of the reason that women
live longer
00:26:21
and are healthier than men.
Why is that?
00:26:24
So, really, emotional labour is
00:26:28
a lot of community building
skills,
00:26:30
a lot of relational skills,
00:26:32
we do a lot of the kin work that
keeps families together,
00:26:35
and we also do that with our
friends
00:26:37
and we do it for
our partners often.
00:26:40
And so for women these bonds
really help keep us healthy.
00:26:45
You know, strong social bonds
are something that
00:26:47
really helps people with their
longevity and their happiness.
00:26:51
And for men, they get those
benefits as well,
00:26:55
but if they lose their partner
unexpectedly,
00:26:58
they don't have these skills
already in their lives
00:27:01
and so it contributes to this
cycle where
00:27:04
men are not taking care of
their own needs
00:27:07
and if they lose their partner,
00:27:10
they lose that social network,
00:27:11
they lose that, you know,
00:27:13
strong family bond that has been
fostered for them
00:27:16
all these years.
00:27:18
And it's really important that
men learn these skills
00:27:22
and take that part of their
life on
00:27:24
so that they don't fall into
this, you know,
00:27:28
comfortable area where they're
getting all of the benefits
00:27:32
from their partner
but it's all like,
00:27:36
it's all their partner's work,
it's all their doing.
00:27:39
But then how do you address
something
00:27:40
that you don't even know
is there?
00:27:42
So I think that's--
00:27:42
Until it's gone.
00:27:44
Yeah. So, that's part of why
I wrote this book
00:27:47
is that I think it's really
important that we start
00:27:49
having these conversations about
emotional labour
00:27:53
and what it is and why it's
important for everyone to have
00:27:56
because I think it's very
invisible for men especially,
00:28:01
women usually can point to this
and say, "Yeah, that's me."
00:28:04
But for men it's,
you know,
00:28:07
this work that they're
not even aware of
00:28:08
because they weren't
conditioned to
00:28:11
see this type of work.
00:28:12
And so I think it's really
important that we
00:28:15
start that conversation
00:28:16
and start talking about it so
that they can see it
00:28:19
because it will become visible
once you start doing the work.
00:28:23
And in the book you write about
your relationship
00:28:25
with your husband,
00:28:26
so how do you--
00:28:28
how does emotional labour play
out in a relationship?
00:28:31
Yes. So it usually plays out
in that we
00:28:35
fall into these roles very
naturally.
00:28:38
We go to these, you know,
preconceived notions of
00:28:42
what we are supposed to do,
by gender,
00:28:45
and we don't even question it.
00:28:46
And so, we take on, you know,
00:28:50
as women we take on emotional
labour bit by bit,
00:28:53
and our partners really don't
00:28:55
realise that it's being done.
00:28:58
I write it's especially notable
in my instance because
00:29:02
I got married very young and so
my husband basically went from
00:29:06
like having his mother take care
of all of his emotional labour
00:29:08
to having me take care of all of
his emotional labour.
00:29:12
And so it like happens very--
00:29:16
it's not a natural progression
00:29:20
because it is not something that
is hardwired into us,
00:29:24
but it is something that happens
without us thinking about it
00:29:27
because we've seen this play out
all around us
00:29:31
for our whole lives and it just
seems like,
00:29:34
"Oh, well this is what we do."
00:29:36
And because it's invisible work
it's harder to point to and say,
00:29:40
"Hey, something doesn't look
quite right here."
00:29:42
Because you can see that,
you know,
00:29:44
your partner is doing the dishes
or doing the domestic labour,
00:29:46
they're helping out with
the children,
00:29:47
but they aren't doing all of
the mental and emotional work
00:29:51
that goes along with that.
00:29:53
When it comes to
parenting,
00:29:54
parenting is changing a lot,
00:29:55
but when it comes to parenting
you point out
00:29:57
that parenting mistakes aren't
viewed as a moral failing
00:30:01
if they're made by men
00:30:03
but you say this isn't the case
if a woman makes a mistake.
00:30:07
Who's making this call?
00:30:09
Yeah, So a lot of the times this
will come from other women.
00:30:14
We will judge each other on our,
you know,
00:30:17
on our parenting skills,
00:30:18
and we sort of have a society
that sets that up,
00:30:22
we have a patriarchal system
that puts mothers
00:30:26
on this very high pedestal where
we have to, you know,
00:30:29
reach for perfection all
the time
00:30:31
and we are expected to do all of
the emotional labour that
00:30:34
goes along with parenting.
00:30:36
And when fathers step in
and are doing that work,
00:30:41
the bar is pretty much
non-existent, it's very low.
00:30:44
And so when they step up and
start doing things
00:30:47
they get a real big pat
on the back.
00:30:49
My husband goes to the store
with all three of our kids
00:30:52
to run errands just as often
as I do
00:30:55
and he never gets through
a store without someone
00:30:58
having to like, stop and say,
00:30:59
"Oh my gosh, you are so brave.
You are such a good dad.
00:31:02
Look at you."
00:31:05
And, you know--
00:31:05
Do you get the same?
00:31:06
If I go to the store, you know,
00:31:08
I'll get like, an eyeroll
'cause one of the kids
00:31:09
is throwing a tantrum.
00:31:11
And my husband said,
00:31:12
"You know, I could have all
three of them
00:31:14
rolling on the ground throwing
tantrums
00:31:16
and someone would still come pat
me on the back."
00:31:18
So your husband's actually made
that observation as well.
00:31:20
Yes, he has.
00:31:21
Now that he's become more aware
of emotional labour
00:31:24
and we've really worked towards
00:31:26
more equality in our
relationship,
00:31:28
it actually makes him a little
bit mad when he gets that
00:31:31
because you know, he's getting
this sort of
00:31:33
infantilising pat on the back,
00:31:35
like, "Oh, look at you.
You're doing such a good job."
00:31:38
"You're--" you know,
"you're trying so hard."
00:31:41
And he's like, "No, I'm a really
capable partner.
00:31:45
I'm a very capable
husband and father
00:31:48
and I want to be treated
as such."
00:31:50
And so that low bar so sort of
annoying for him
00:31:54
because he's surpassed it
so much.
00:31:57
You mentioned that you
married young,
00:31:59
you were also brought up in a
Christian household.
00:32:00
Yes.
00:32:01
How much did that play into how
you view emotional labour?
00:32:05
So I think it really played
into how I thought
00:32:09
the research was going to
bear out because I had these
00:32:13
preconceived biases about,
you know,
00:32:16
I was really good at
emotional labour,
00:32:18
and surely I had to be naturally
better at it
00:32:21
in some way, right?
00:32:22
I had to be hardwired for it.
00:32:24
That's what I had been told
my whole life.
00:32:26
And you know, I had questioned
a lot of my belief
00:32:31
as I got older,
00:32:33
but this was one part
that I was like,
00:32:35
"Well, I see this everywhere
though,
00:32:37
it's not just like,
my Christian grandmother,
00:32:39
it's like my atheist
neighbour, my--"
00:32:41
you know,
"my aunt, everyone around me.
00:32:44
All the women in my life are
doing this work.
00:32:47
So why wouldn't it be a natural,
you know,
00:32:51
part of my biology?"
00:32:53
Which is of course,
not the case at all.
00:32:56
Gender is not a binary thing
00:32:58
and there is no evidence
that supports
00:33:01
women being naturally better
at this work.
00:33:03
So you're saying that we're
conditioned in society
00:33:05
to perform these roles?
00:33:07
Yes. We're conditioned from a
very young age.
00:33:09
I talked to a researcher who
said that as early as three
00:33:12
we are learning these roles,
00:33:14
we're absorbing them even if
we can't, you know,
00:33:17
verbalise what we're seeing,
00:33:19
we understand that this is
women's work
00:33:22
and this men's work,
00:33:23
and we really absorb those
gender roles
00:33:26
incredibly early
and they go unchecked,
00:33:30
sometimes for decades,
sometimes for a whole lifetime,
00:33:32
you know?
00:33:33
A lot of the times we will not
take that extra step
00:33:36
to question our own
internal biases
00:33:39
because they seem to
be working so well.
00:33:42
Well how you you even have
that conversation
00:33:43
about that?
00:33:46
Because I'm guessing when you do
have this conversation
00:33:48
about the inequity of
emotional labour
00:33:49
that's being performed
in a relationship
00:33:52
one person is frustrated
and one person is defensive.
00:33:55
So how do you have a
conversations about
00:33:57
how to reach a balance or
something that works out
00:33:59
for both of you?
00:34:01
Yeah. So I think the way to go
about it is not to have like,
00:34:04
a meltdown in your closet on
Mother's Day
00:34:06
which my initial way of
doing it.
00:34:10
But I think what helped was
approaching it
00:34:13
from that cultural perspective
00:34:15
and really talking about the way
each of us were raised
00:34:18
and why there is that gap?
00:34:20
That was really what I wanted to
find out in this book
00:34:23
was why is there such a wide gap
in emotional labour
00:34:26
in what I considered to be a
very progressive relationship.
00:34:29
And a lot of women echoed that
sentiment
00:34:32
that they had partners who did
the childcare,
00:34:34
who did the cleaning,
who did all the right things
00:34:38
but there was this gap
in the mental load
00:34:41
and in the emotional labour that
was going into their lives.
00:34:45
And I think when we look at
the way we were raised
00:34:48
and the expectations that
we saw,
00:34:51
it really helps take that
defensiveness out of it
00:34:54
because we're examining, you
know, how our culture raised us,
00:34:58
not, "You're doing this wrong
but maybe we're not seeing
00:35:00
the whole picture.
00:35:02
It's not about the individual,
it's about the culture.
00:35:04
Yeah. Yeah, it's about
the culture much more.
00:35:06
Well, something happened to you
when you were in the hospital
00:35:09
and you gave birth to
your first child.
00:35:11
What happened?
00:35:12
So, my first child,
00:35:16
I had a bit of
a traumatic labour
00:35:19
and I was really, you know,
just beat up by the end of it.
00:35:23
And I was, you know,
sitting there exhausted,
00:35:28
on all sorts of drugs to help me
cope with the pain
00:35:31
and they came in and they
addressed me as "Mom",
00:35:35
they never learned my name
which I mean,
00:35:37
I guess I can see why it would
be hard to learn all the names,
00:35:41
but also, like,
it's right there on the chart.
00:35:43
It's on your bed.
00:35:44
It's right there.
00:35:45
Maybe we could, you know,
call me by my first name
00:35:47
as an individual.
00:35:49
But they came in and started
giving me
00:35:51
all of these instructions
and paperwork,
00:35:54
and my husband is sitting there,
fully intact
00:35:58
physically and mentally,
00:36:00
and they're telling me all of
these different things
00:36:02
that I need to know
00:36:04
and these things that I need to
track for the baby.
00:36:06
And I was just-- I sort of
looked over at him
00:36:10
and I was like, "Why-- why are
you talking to me right now?
00:36:14
There's a fully capable parent
in this room
00:36:17
that could take down this
information and not forget it
00:36:20
as soon as they fall into like,
a drug induced coma here."
00:36:23
What was you husband's
reaction?
00:36:25
He didn't realise
it was happening.
00:36:28
At the time--
he said when he read the book
00:36:30
and he saw that moment,
you know,
00:36:32
through my lens it was
absolutely eye-opening for him
00:36:37
because, you know, he's also
going through this
00:36:40
immense life change,
he also just, you know,
00:36:43
had a baby brought into
the world.
00:36:44
So he just sort of went with
what the doctors were doing.
00:36:48
Having been in
that situation,
00:36:49
he was probably shell-shocked.
00:36:50
Yeah. He was.
He absolutely was.
00:36:53
And, you know, we-- he was still
in school at the time
00:36:55
so he had finals the next day
00:36:58
that he had to like, leave the
hospital and go and come back,
00:37:00
and you know, bless him.
00:37:02
I want to read something that
you wrote in the book.
00:37:04
You write--
00:37:14
What ends are men aiming for
when they
00:37:16
take on emotional labour
in your experience?
00:37:19
So in my experience--
00:37:21
What I'm talking about in that
section of the book is
00:37:24
usually courtship
00:37:25
and men wanting to put forth
that extra effort to sort of,
00:37:30
you know, win the girl.
00:37:33
And that's, you know,
00:37:35
fraught with all sorts of
damaging stereotypes
00:37:39
but I think that when men do it
it's seen as really
00:37:44
an extra credit activity
00:37:46
and it's something that puts
them a notch above,
00:37:49
but they don't have any societal
expectation to continue.
00:37:52
And so once you get past that
early stage of a relationship
00:37:57
like we saw in that clip,
00:37:59
it's not expected anymore.
00:38:01
And so women sort of brace
themselves for this gradual
00:38:05
like, de-escalation
of emotional labour
00:38:09
where they are taking on more
and more
00:38:11
and, um, their partners are not.
00:38:14
You also write that
during work hours,
00:38:17
women's emotional labour shifts
to hired help.
00:38:20
How does this dynamic contribute
to the problem of
00:38:22
emotional labour
imbalance?
00:38:24
So especially, you know,
00:38:26
I write this from an American
perspective,
00:38:29
and in the U.S. you know,
00:38:31
I know that we have
a really big problem
00:38:34
with paying well for childcare
00:38:37
and for housecleaning,
00:38:39
those jobs usually go to
immigrants or women of colour
00:38:42
and it really shows how little
we actually value this work
00:38:47
in society because we are not
willing to pay for it.
00:38:51
We will pay lip service
all day long
00:38:52
to mothers and the,
you know,
00:38:55
impossible job they do,
and all that, you know,
00:38:57
goes along with it
00:38:59
but when we take the actual
physical labour
00:39:02
and hand it off to someone else
and give them the care work,
00:39:06
we aren't paying well for it
00:39:07
and we are really holding up a
system of poverty
00:39:11
for the women who do this work.
00:39:13
And so it really broadens
the scope of
00:39:18
what emotional labour is doing
to our society
00:39:20
when we are not valuing it
and so it's really--
00:39:23
What is it worth?
00:39:24
If you were able to like,
put a number to it,
00:39:25
what would it be worth?
00:39:27
Well, I mean, it's hard to say,
like, what I--
00:39:30
what I would like it to be worth
00:39:32
is a lot more than what it is
worth, you know?
00:39:35
Because in society we don't--
00:39:37
we don't put a lot of worth on
jobs that wee see as
00:39:40
women's work.
00:39:42
And so emotional labour heavy
jobs generally tend to
00:39:45
fall on the lower end
of the pay scale.
00:39:48
And you also talk about
the control freak argument,
00:39:51
and I'm sure you've probably
heard that
00:39:53
from people who've spoken to you
in the past,
00:39:56
saying that maybe you are a
control freak,
00:39:58
maybe you just need to chill
with the stuff that's
00:40:01
happening in the house.
00:40:02
How does that ignore
the real problem?
00:40:05
Yeah. So the control freak
argument is a very common one
00:40:08
that I get
00:40:10
and a lot of feminist texts in
the past few years
00:40:14
have advocated for
letting it go,
00:40:16
that's the solution if you
want to have
00:40:18
the high powered career
and enjoy your family,
00:40:21
you just need to let it all go.
00:40:23
And what I write in the book
is that
00:40:24
there are so few things that I
do for the joy of control.
00:40:29
Like, I do these things because
I know that it's
00:40:31
the most efficient way to run
my household,
00:40:34
I know it's what keeps everyone
comfortable,
00:40:36
I know it keeps things running
smoothly.
00:40:37
And so when someone tells me
that I can simply, you know,
00:40:42
really lower my standards,
let things go,
00:40:45
they're ignoring the value of
the work that we're doing
00:40:48
when we undertake
emotional labour.
00:40:51
We are doing things that we've
planned out because
00:40:54
they make sense for our
families,
00:40:56
they make sense for individual,
00:40:58
you know, needs.
00:40:59
And I think that it's really
important that
00:41:01
we can agree on a shared
standard
00:41:05
rather then say, you know,
00:41:07
"The onus is on you
to let it go
00:41:10
so your partner doesn't
have to change
00:41:11
because it's not his problem,
00:41:13
it's your problem if you're
exhausted by emotional labour."
00:41:16
That's, you know, that's what
the argument is saying,
00:41:18
that there is no onus
on men to change,
00:41:21
it is all on you to change
your behaviour
00:41:23
and to change your needs,
basically.
00:41:26
Changing your own
behaviour
00:41:28
is very difficult and getting
somebody else to change
00:41:31
their behaviours
is doubly hard, right?
00:41:33
What do you mean when
you say that
00:41:34
men need to stop using
comparison
00:41:37
as an excuse for not changing?
00:41:39
So I think this is a very common
trap for progressive men
00:41:43
is that they can look at their
father's generation,
00:41:46
their grandfather's generation,
00:41:47
they can even usually look
around them and say,
00:41:50
"But look at how much I do
compared to my dad,
00:41:53
compared to--" you know,
00:41:55
"my friend who calls it
babysitting when he
00:41:57
watches his kids."
00:41:59
And they'll say, "Look at how
well I am doing
00:42:01
compared to other men."
00:42:03
And what I like to say is,
you know,
00:42:05
"There is no other man in
this marriage."
00:42:09
What we're comparing is,
you know,
00:42:11
"What does my work look like
compared to your work?
00:42:14
Because this is a partnership
and so bringing in another,
00:42:18
you know, outside person is not
going to help us
00:42:22
find our balance."
00:42:23
You know? It's not like I'm--
00:42:25
I'm not saying, "Well, you know,
Amy over here,
00:42:28
she doesn't do her-- you know,
her housework
00:42:31
so why should I do mine?"
You know?
00:42:33
Or anything like that.
00:42:35
Women never use that comparison
tool as a way of, you know,
00:42:39
scapegoating their own
behaviour.
00:42:41
But men will do it
often because
00:42:43
it's very convenient to say,
00:42:45
"Well, look at how good
I'm doing
00:42:46
compared to everyone else."
00:42:48
But it should really be
a talk about
00:42:50
how do we share our
responsibilities
00:42:52
within our partnership?
00:42:54
Iceland had made incredible
progress
00:42:56
that you highlight in the book.
00:42:59
What do we need to learn from
Iceland about emotional labour?
00:43:04
Yes. So Iceland is a really
interesting case study for
00:43:08
how they've dealt with
emotional labour.
00:43:11
One thing is their paternal
leave policy is incredible
00:43:16
and they, you know, really
encourage and incentivise men
00:43:20
to take that.
00:43:21
I know that in the U.S. we don't
have, you know,
00:43:24
much of anything.
00:43:25
We don't have maternity leave
or paternity leave for most,
00:43:30
at least not legislated, it
varies from company to company.
00:43:34
And I have heard in Canada,
00:43:37
is it correct that there is also
00:43:39
paternity leave but you know,
I've heard from men
00:43:43
that they won't take it
00:43:45
because there is this sort of
macho culture that says,
00:43:49
you know, "You need to
get back to work."
00:43:51
And so a lot of men will not
take that full paternity leave.
00:43:54
But it's different in
Iceland thought.
00:43:55
But in Iceland it's very
different
00:43:58
where men are incentivised.
00:44:00
They made it so that they--
00:44:03
they don't get as many benefits
00:44:06
if they go back to work earlier.
00:44:07
And so for men it makes it
a no-brainer.
00:44:09
"I'm going to stay home."
00:44:11
Because most men want to
do that anyway.
00:44:13
Most men I talk to said if it
wasn't for their culture
00:44:16
they would want to stay home and
spend that extra time
00:44:19
with their children.
00:44:20
And that can really help balance
out emotional labour
00:44:23
because when you are at home
constantly with, you know,
00:44:28
a new child, all of those
schedules are developing,
00:44:31
all of those, you know,
new metal lists
00:44:34
are starting to build in
your head
00:44:36
and you want both partners to
have that knowledge
00:44:39
instead of, you know,
00:44:40
I write in my book, my husband
had no paternity leave
00:44:43
and so I was wracking up all of
these things in my head
00:44:46
and he just found it easier to
ask me,
00:44:49
"What needs to be done?
How does this work?"
00:44:51
I thought it was
really interesting--
00:44:53
we've run out of time,
00:44:54
but you-- in the book that you
wrote that men want to stay home
00:44:57
and women want to
go to work,
00:44:59
but that's not something
that we talk about, is it?
00:45:02
No, it's really not.
00:45:03
I think men and women, we kind
of want the same thing,
00:45:07
we want the full experience
of life.
00:45:10
And I think emotional labour and
men learning how to
00:45:13
perform emotional labour
is how we get there,
00:45:16
where everyone is really
00:45:18
fully connected to their lives
and experiencing all of it.
00:45:22
Gemma,
thank you so much.
00:45:23
Yeah. Thank you.
00:45:23
Great book.
00:45:24
Thank you for your
insights.
00:45:25
We appreciate you making some
time for The Agenda.
00:45:26
Yeah. Thank you
for having me.
00:45:26
Thank you.
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