Stan Druckenmiller | Podcast | In Good Company | Norges Bank Investment Management

00:51:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5Weeox0Xus

Resumo

TLDRL'entretien mené par Nicola Tangen avec Stan Ren Miller offre un aperçu approfondi de l'état actuel du marché et des perspectives économiques futures. Miller, connu pour son approche macroéconomique pragmatique, souligne ne pas percevoir de faiblesses économiques majeures à l'horizon, hormis dans le secteur immobilier. Il exprime des inquiétudes concernant une déclaration prématurée de la victoire de la Fed sur l'inflation, se référant aux erreurs des années 70. Miller discute de son approche particulière à l'analyse des marchés, mélangeant intuition et stratégie, et mettant en avant l'importance de réagir rapidement aux opportunités. Il partage ses craintes concernant le déficit budgétaire et les effets de la politique monétaire actuelle. Miller évoque l'avènement de l'IA dans le secteur technologique, analysant ses implications tout en reconnaissant ses propres limitations en termes d'anticipation de chaque évolution potentielle. Enfin, il conseille aux jeunes investisseurs de suivre une passion sincère pour les marchés, plutôt que de les intégrer simplement pour un bénéfice financier.

Conclusões

  • 📈 Les investissements de Miller sont basés sur une analyse macro économique profonde.
  • 💡 Privilégier l'intuition rapide peut débloquer des opportunités d'investissements majeures.
  • 📉 Il redoute une résurgence de l'inflation due à une politique monétaire trop laxiste.
  • 🤖 L'IA est vue comme une nouvelle frontière d'innovation, mais nécessite une approche prudente.
  • 💼 La responsabilité de la Fed est scrutée dans ses décisions stratégiques concernant l'économie.
  • 🛒 Avoir la flexibilité de changer de position est essentiel dans une gestion réussie de portefeuille.
  • 🏦 Miller tire parti des erreurs financières historiques des banques centrales.
  • ⚠️ S'inquiète du déficit budgétaire croissant et de ses implications futures.
  • 🚀 Les évolutions technologiques sont cruciales mais complexes à maîtriser.
  • 👔 Conseille aux jeunes de s'engager passionnément et non par intérêt pécuniaire.

Linha do tempo

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Nicola Tangen, le PDG du Fonds souverain norvégien, s'entretient avec Stan Ren Miller sur l'état actuel de l'économie. Miller, bien qu'il soit un investisseur macroéconomique, affirme ne pas voir de signes significatifs de faiblesse économique, à l'exception du marché immobilier. Il s'inquiète cependant de l'inflation, évoquant des parallèles avec les années 70 et exprimant des doutes quant aux décisions de la FED. Il évoque aussi la possibilité d'une hausse des taux d'intérêt en cas de victoire de Trump.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Miller critique l'obsession de la Réserve fédérale pour un 'atterrissage en douceur', soulignant que leur rôle est d'éviter les grandes erreurs économiques à long terme. Il parle de la perte de flexibilité que suscite l'orientation future de la FED et des problèmes posés par le déficit budgétaire. Selon Miller, les États-Unis ont pu se permettre des comportements économiques que d'autres pays ne pourraient pas en raison de leur statut de monnaie de réserve.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Il estime que le problème du déficit budgétaire des États-Unis pourrait se manifester d'ici 2025 ou 2026, en partie à cause de la montée des taux d'intérêt. Les taux pourraient atteindre 6 à 7 % si l'inflation repartait à la hausse, se référant à une situation similaire dans les années 70. Miller mentionne sa position actuelle de vente à découvert sur des obligations, bien qu'il se garde de toute surexposition.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Même si le leadership du marché boursier est étroit, il y a un élargissement progressif des secteurs qui prennent la tête, notamment les financières. Il note la continuation du boom de l'IA, qui est perçu comme une menace existentielle par les entreprises. Il reste prudent sur la façon de jouer cette tendance, focalisé sur des applications AI encore inexploitées.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Miller partage son expérience dans la détection précoce des tendances, notamment sur l'exemple d'Nvidia. Il a identifié l'intérêt croissant pour l'IA à travers les jeunes diplômés se détournant de la cryptographie. Une approche partagée est d'investir d'abord et d'analyser ensuite, pour ne pas rater les mouvements importants du marché.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Miller souligne l'importance d'un jugement prospectif dans l'investissement. Il s'agit d'anticiper les conditions économiques futures et d'aligner ses investissements en conséquence. Il évoque également sa capacité à réviser ses décisions d'investissement, inspirée par son temps avec Soros, qui était également prompt à réajuster ses positions selon les développements du marché.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Il discute de moments marquants de sa carrière, comme le trading sur la livre sterling, où travailler avec George Soros lui a enseigné l'importance de bénéficier pleinement des opportunités de marché. Soros insistait pour doubler la conviction, un trait qui a influencé Miller mais qu'il n'a pas totalement adopté.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Miller aborde l'échec des opportunités d'arbitrage des monnaies d'autres pays comme la Suède et la Thaïlande, souvent peu connues malgré leur succès. Il se souvient de transactions réussies mais discute aussi des erreurs passées, notamment le fait de ne pas avoir capitalisé davantage sur la hausse des taux.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    Il exprime des réserves sur la capacité des machines à remplacer complètement les humains dans le domaine de l'investissement, préférant une approche combinant intelligence humaine et machine. Il évoque son amitié avec le champion d'échecs Gary Kasparov, qui utilise les machines pour s'entraîner, comme une analogie de ce qui est possible dans le domaine financier.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:51:56

    Stan Miller conseille aux jeunes entrant dans le secteur financier de ne pas le faire uniquement pour l'argent mais pour la passion du domaine. Il recommande d'apprendre auprès d'un mentor et d'être ouvert à différentes voies au sein de l'industrie, tout en gardant une approche analytique mais adaptative.

Mostrar mais

Mapa mental

Mind Map

Perguntas frequentes

  • Quelle est la perspective économique actuelle selon Stan Ren Miller ?

    Selon Stan Ren Miller, il n'y a pas de signes matériels de faiblesse économique, à part peut-être le marché du logement.

  • Quels facteurs pourraient influencer une nouvelle hausse d'inflation selon Miller ?

    Une amélioration des conditions financières, élection de Trump, ou encore des tarifs douaniers pourraient influencer l'inflation.

  • Pourquoi Stan Ren Miller est préoccupé par les politiques de la banque centrale ?

    Il pense que la Fed pourrait commettre des erreurs en s'obsédant sur un atterrissage en douceur de l'économie.

  • Comment Stan Ren Miller intègre-t-il l'IA dans ses décisions d'investissement ?

    Il utilise l'IA pour compléter l'analyse humaine mais reste prudent sur l'endroit où investir dans ce domaine.

  • Comment Stan Ren Miller évalue-t-il la responsabilité de la Fed pour l'inflation des années 70 ?

    Il craint que la Fed ne déclare trop tôt sa victoire contre l'inflation, rappelant les erreurs similaires des années 70.

  • Comment Miller a-t-il réagi face aux erreurs de la Fed précédemment ?

    Il est connu pour tirer profit des erreurs de la Fed par une gestion prudente de ses positions sur le marché.

  • Quels sont les challenges actuels du marché selon Miller ?

    Il souligne la narrowité du leadership boursier, l'inflation potentielle sous-estimée et des déficits budgétaires inquiétants.

  • Quels conseils Miller donne-t-il aux jeunes investisseurs ?

    Il insiste sur le fait de ne pas rechercher ce métier uniquement pour l'argent, mais pour une véritable passion des marchés.

  • Comment Miller voit-il l'évolution future du secteur technologique ?

    Il reste optimiste sur l'impact de l'IA mais cherche encore où placer ses investissements pour en tirer profit.

  • Pourquoi Miller prend-il parfois des décisions d'achat rapide sans analyse approfondie initiale ?

    Il préfère acheter immédiatement sur une intuition puis investiguer pour éviter de manquer des opportunités importantes.

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Rolagem automática:
  • 00:00:00
    [Music]
  • 00:00:01
    hi everybody I'm Nicola tangan the CEO
  • 00:00:03
    of the Norwegian Sovereign wealth fund
  • 00:00:04
    and today I'm here with Stan Ren Miller
  • 00:00:07
    at proper legend in the investment World
  • 00:00:10
    San what a pleasure to be here happy to
  • 00:00:11
    see you niai now what are the most
  • 00:00:14
    important data you're looking at these
  • 00:00:16
    days currently yeah interestingly enough
  • 00:00:19
    I'm known as a macro investor but I do a
  • 00:00:23
    macro from the bottom up so we're
  • 00:00:25
    listening primarily to companies and
  • 00:00:29
    we're not seeing
  • 00:00:30
    any material signs of weakness other
  • 00:00:34
    than maybe in the housing market but
  • 00:00:37
    that's from a very elevated price level
  • 00:00:40
    so we're not seeing bottom up in
  • 00:00:42
    information indicating to us that
  • 00:00:45
    there's an economic problem anytime in
  • 00:00:47
    the next 3 to six months I would also
  • 00:00:50
    say I'm revealing now that I'm more of a
  • 00:00:52
    market animal than an economist that we
  • 00:00:55
    look at Financial
  • 00:00:57
    conditions they've been very very loose
  • 00:01:00
    I mean they're is looser looser than
  • 00:01:02
    they were when the FED actually started
  • 00:01:04
    tightening they've tightened
  • 00:01:07
    considerably in the
  • 00:01:09
    last four or five weeks ever since the
  • 00:01:12
    ironically ever since the FED cut
  • 00:01:14
    because the dollar has ried and
  • 00:01:17
    obviously interest rates have gone up
  • 00:01:19
    but they're still they're still quite
  • 00:01:21
    above normal so that's pretty much the
  • 00:01:24
    data we're looking at I'd say the other
  • 00:01:26
    thing I'm focused on I've been obsessed
  • 00:01:28
    with whether we were in the 70s um
  • 00:01:33
    really since 2021 when this whole
  • 00:01:37
    inflationary episode started and I'd say
  • 00:01:40
    two years ago or a year and a half ago I
  • 00:01:43
    was very confident that inflation was
  • 00:01:46
    going to come down which I was right on
  • 00:01:49
    but I was worried about the economy
  • 00:01:52
    which I was completely wrong on um more
  • 00:01:56
    recently and you can take this with a
  • 00:01:58
    grain of salt since I had one right and
  • 00:02:00
    one wrong there um I've switched to
  • 00:02:03
    being more worried about inflation going
  • 00:02:06
    forward uh than the economy itself why
  • 00:02:09
    do I say that if we go back to the 70s
  • 00:02:12
    there was an episode with OPEC that set
  • 00:02:15
    off an inflation you had a
  • 00:02:17
    recession
  • 00:02:19
    and inflation came down I think from
  • 00:02:22
    about 8 to 3 and then went back up again
  • 00:02:25
    yes and what Bo what's bothered me and
  • 00:02:28
    what I have wanted to say
  • 00:02:30
    you're exactly right it went back up
  • 00:02:32
    again it went back up again and the
  • 00:02:34
    number of
  • 00:02:35
    months um would correlate to the bottom
  • 00:02:38
    being right about now yeah so my
  • 00:02:42
    confidence a year a year and a half ago
  • 00:02:43
    was we're going to have that period
  • 00:02:45
    where we came down again and then we'd
  • 00:02:48
    see and I'm a little worried that the
  • 00:02:51
    FED has declared Victory too early I
  • 00:02:55
    don't have conviction like I had in 21
  • 00:02:58
    that inflation was going going to go up
  • 00:03:00
    that's when the money supply was growing
  • 00:03:02
    40% and all sorts of things were
  • 00:03:04
    happening but I also don't have
  • 00:03:07
    conviction that they've snuffed this
  • 00:03:09
    thing out and won the battle and to cut
  • 00:03:12
    50 basis
  • 00:03:13
    points with credit spreads tight gold at
  • 00:03:18
    new highs equity's roaring no sign of
  • 00:03:22
    weakness um material weakness in the
  • 00:03:26
    economy of course there are some spots
  • 00:03:29
    um that just makes me nervous that this
  • 00:03:32
    thing could turn up again what would
  • 00:03:34
    make you turn up again what would be the
  • 00:03:35
    factors I think what I just said uh
  • 00:03:38
    easing into Financial conditions let's
  • 00:03:41
    say um Trump wins if Trump wins you
  • 00:03:45
    could have animal spirits from the
  • 00:03:48
    business Community who are dying for
  • 00:03:51
    deregulation you could have tariffs
  • 00:03:55
    which are on the margin
  • 00:03:57
    inflationary uh immigration has been a
  • 00:03:59
    great Boon to this country maybe not the
  • 00:04:03
    way it was done but it certainly enabled
  • 00:04:05
    us to have growth without inflation and
  • 00:04:07
    labor materially the last two or three
  • 00:04:10
    years so the combination of animal
  • 00:04:13
    spirits recovery doing better than it is
  • 00:04:16
    I'm just open-minded to it again why is
  • 00:04:19
    it so urgent for the central bank to cut
  • 00:04:21
    given this honestly um I don't take the
  • 00:04:26
    nefarious view that pal is doing it for
  • 00:04:29
    quote unquote political reasons I do
  • 00:04:32
    think he's obsessed with the soft
  • 00:04:34
    landing and I think he's obsessed with
  • 00:04:37
    his legacy and having made the mistake
  • 00:04:40
    he made in 21 and he's being egged on by
  • 00:04:42
    other economists in the press to me the
  • 00:04:44
    fed's job is to avoid the big big
  • 00:04:47
    mistakes yeah like the 70s like the
  • 00:04:50
    great financial crisis like the big
  • 00:04:53
    inflation we just had but all this fine
  • 00:04:56
    tuning and woring about a soft Landing
  • 00:04:58
    that that is not the job of the FED in
  • 00:05:01
    my opinion is to maximize employment for
  • 00:05:04
    the long term not for the next three
  • 00:05:06
    months or the next four months but I
  • 00:05:09
    think the fed's obsession with nailing
  • 00:05:12
    this so-called soft Landing I would
  • 00:05:15
    remind everybody that the reason we're
  • 00:05:17
    having a landing is because they took
  • 00:05:20
    they let inflation go from 2 to %. yeah
  • 00:05:23
    so there was no need for a landing for
  • 00:05:25
    20 years but um I think that's what
  • 00:05:28
    they're obsessed with I don't really I
  • 00:05:31
    don't know how much of a problem is the
  • 00:05:33
    forward guidance it's a huge problem um
  • 00:05:36
    my friend dream grants says they're
  • 00:05:38
    forward guidance dependent not data
  • 00:05:41
    dependent um it's a problem because once
  • 00:05:44
    you do forward guidance you eliminate
  • 00:05:46
    your optionality yeah and I think
  • 00:05:49
    Nikolai you and I being in this business
  • 00:05:51
    we know we have to change our mind when
  • 00:05:53
    we're wrong yeah this fed has
  • 00:05:56
    shown over and over again that they
  • 00:05:59
    think if they change their mind they're
  • 00:06:00
    losing credibility so it makes them have
  • 00:06:04
    their hands tied behind their back I'm
  • 00:06:06
    wrong all the time I think my record is
  • 00:06:09
    mainly because when I'm wrong I changed
  • 00:06:12
    my mind not that I'm always right I'm
  • 00:06:14
    certainly not forward guidance seems to
  • 00:06:17
    tie them into positions where and
  • 00:06:19
    eliminate flexibility they need how big
  • 00:06:21
    a problem is the budget deficit as a
  • 00:06:24
    practitioner it's something I can't be
  • 00:06:26
    obsessed with on a 3 to six Monon basis
  • 00:06:30
    as an American it's something I'm really
  • 00:06:32
    obsessed with because debt to GDP can't
  • 00:06:35
    go up forever and to me we have a
  • 00:06:38
    reckoning but I don't know how the time
  • 00:06:41
    when that's going to take place I will
  • 00:06:44
    say that because the reserve
  • 00:06:47
    currency we've been permitted to engage
  • 00:06:50
    in behavior that say the Brits couldn't
  • 00:06:52
    have behaved in there's a new term I
  • 00:06:55
    have getting LZ trust we haven't been LZ
  • 00:06:57
    trust because we are the reserve
  • 00:06:59
    currency even though if you look at
  • 00:07:00
    everything we're doing it's much more
  • 00:07:02
    radical than the Brits were doing yeah
  • 00:07:05
    um what's that old saying how do you go
  • 00:07:07
    bankrupt slowly and then suddenly
  • 00:07:10
    running deficits with full employment at
  • 00:07:12
    basically at 7% of
  • 00:07:14
    GDP is a recipe that can't last forever
  • 00:07:18
    one of the reasons we haven't paid for
  • 00:07:20
    it is in Co the entire private sector
  • 00:07:23
    80% of individuals refinance their
  • 00:07:25
    mortgages so the average mortgage rate
  • 00:07:28
    is still under 4% even though at the
  • 00:07:30
    margin it got to 8% corporations termed
  • 00:07:33
    out their debt that stuff rolls over in
  • 00:07:36
    25 and 26 if we're going to have a
  • 00:07:39
    problem it's probably more like late 25
  • 00:07:42
    early 26 but you just don't know so and
  • 00:07:46
    what is it that can create this kind of
  • 00:07:48
    trust moment where people suddenly
  • 00:07:50
    change their mind in terms of the price
  • 00:07:52
    they want to have to lend money to it
  • 00:07:54
    could it could be a failed auction it
  • 00:07:56
    could be If the Fed is wrong about
  • 00:07:59
    inflation and it turns back up again
  • 00:08:01
    because they're easing Financial
  • 00:08:03
    conditions into a melt up um if they
  • 00:08:06
    were to have to start increasing
  • 00:08:08
    interest rates again which is why I
  • 00:08:10
    think they should be so cautious about
  • 00:08:13
    their
  • 00:08:14
    optionality um now that they've forward
  • 00:08:17
    guided to a series of cuts that could
  • 00:08:20
    cause it um my best guess would be a
  • 00:08:23
    failed auction but honestly it could be
  • 00:08:26
    6 months it could be six years I I just
  • 00:08:28
    don't know so he rat start to go up how
  • 00:08:31
    high can they go well that's a great
  • 00:08:33
    question because right now the 10 year I
  • 00:08:36
    guess it's around 4 and a half it can go
  • 00:08:38
    to nominal GDP so let's say inflation
  • 00:08:40
    went to four 4 and A2 and real growth
  • 00:08:44
    was 2 and a half or three 10 years AG go
  • 00:08:46
    to six or seven I'm not predicting that
  • 00:08:49
    but that would be consistent if things
  • 00:08:52
    if inflation did turn back up again and
  • 00:08:55
    the economy wasn't weakening I think you
  • 00:08:57
    could get there it's interesting that's
  • 00:08:59
    what happened in the 70 the bond market
  • 00:09:02
    didn't really respond until we went back
  • 00:09:05
    up from like 3 to 12 and then it it
  • 00:09:07
    responded in Spades again I'm not
  • 00:09:10
    predicting this but I'm as a
  • 00:09:11
    practitioner I'm very open-minded to it
  • 00:09:13
    and I've got a it's like on my radar
  • 00:09:16
    well you say you make the most money
  • 00:09:18
    from uh from fed mistakes so is this the
  • 00:09:20
    way you are positioned now I'm short
  • 00:09:22
    ponds I'm not like mega short I I
  • 00:09:26
    actually had good timing for once I
  • 00:09:28
    shorted them literally the day the FED
  • 00:09:30
    cut um it's been kind of an easy ride
  • 00:09:34
    since then I should have been much
  • 00:09:35
    bigger now that they move so much I'm a
  • 00:09:39
    little worried about um if anything
  • 00:09:42
    being too big but yeah no that's the way
  • 00:09:44
    I'm positioned if I thought what we are
  • 00:09:47
    talking about was happening and I don't
  • 00:09:49
    see a sign of it yet I'm just
  • 00:09:51
    open-minded to it I would be much bigger
  • 00:09:53
    I'm like
  • 00:09:55
    25% naav short uh 10e equivalent moving
  • 00:09:59
    on to the stock market uh the leadership
  • 00:10:01
    is very narrow it's led by not so many
  • 00:10:04
    stocks just how do you read this narrow
  • 00:10:06
    leadership um it's never been great but
  • 00:10:10
    the leadership's not as narrow as it was
  • 00:10:12
    last April so you're starting to get
  • 00:10:15
    some broadening out the financials are
  • 00:10:17
    doing better it's not great we've never
  • 00:10:20
    had a bare Market start without the
  • 00:10:25
    leadership narrowing and it's narrowing
  • 00:10:27
    enough that you're starting to get
  • 00:10:29
    toward a necessary condition being
  • 00:10:31
    satisfied but it's early but it's it's a
  • 00:10:35
    it's a yellow light it's not a red light
  • 00:10:37
    that's how I read it so how do you think
  • 00:10:39
    the tech sector will develop what kind
  • 00:10:42
    of science are you seeing there the AI
  • 00:10:44
    boom is going unabated Nikolai the I
  • 00:10:48
    think the private sector just sees it as
  • 00:10:52
    an existential threat to their business
  • 00:10:54
    if they don't um spend money on it
  • 00:10:57
    because if they don't spend money on it
  • 00:11:00
    and their competitors do and their
  • 00:11:02
    competitors are right they're going to
  • 00:11:04
    have a big big competitive problem and
  • 00:11:06
    of course the
  • 00:11:08
    hyperscalers they're all in and their
  • 00:11:10
    demand is just continuing so look you've
  • 00:11:14
    got very rich prices in the tech sector
  • 00:11:17
    stuff like apple selling I know 25 or 30
  • 00:11:21
    times earnings it's certainly not
  • 00:11:22
    growing at 25 or 30% but we don't have
  • 00:11:26
    that much exposure to the tech sector
  • 00:11:28
    and we're not short it so not really
  • 00:11:29
    involved cuz but you were very early
  • 00:11:32
    into it yeah what um how do you spot
  • 00:11:35
    these early Trends what is said that you
  • 00:11:37
    look at honestly uh I've got young
  • 00:11:42
    really good analysts here yeah a lot of
  • 00:11:45
    people have a lot of young analysts who
  • 00:11:47
    are who are on top of things and they
  • 00:11:49
    started um we noticed about three or
  • 00:11:52
    four years ago that the kids that go to
  • 00:11:54
    Stanford and MIT the engineers were
  • 00:11:57
    shifting from crypto to AI
  • 00:12:00
    that was the first signed then my my
  • 00:12:05
    young Partners started talking more and
  • 00:12:07
    more about AI uh I asked them how to
  • 00:12:10
    play it they mentioned a company called
  • 00:12:14
    Nvidia which I thought was a gaming
  • 00:12:16
    company I hadn't done work on in a long
  • 00:12:19
    time um I bought a pretty good chunk of
  • 00:12:22
    it and then like a month later chaty PT
  • 00:12:25
    happened it was just total luck I had no
  • 00:12:28
    idea caty p but the AI drum around here
  • 00:12:32
    was big enough and the stock was down I
  • 00:12:34
    think from 400 to 150 or something so
  • 00:12:37
    that's how I got started in it once we
  • 00:12:39
    invest in something like that then we
  • 00:12:42
    really start to dig deeper and then
  • 00:12:44
    there was a whole chain of things we
  • 00:12:45
    knew it would affect power we knew it
  • 00:12:48
    would affect uranium we just went
  • 00:12:50
    through the whole chain and it was a
  • 00:12:52
    pretty easy Trend to spot not not unlike
  • 00:12:55
    um the cloud was the you know these
  • 00:12:58
    things come in waves M but AI the
  • 00:13:01
    question with AI now that I'm wrestling
  • 00:13:04
    with and the reason our exposure is
  • 00:13:06
    really neither long nor short is how to
  • 00:13:10
    play it because we started with pix and
  • 00:13:13
    shovels which is Invidia and to some
  • 00:13:16
    extent um Microsoft but now we're seeing
  • 00:13:21
    just massive amounts of capital being
  • 00:13:24
    spent by these
  • 00:13:26
    modelers and if AI is for real and I
  • 00:13:30
    think it is they're all going to give
  • 00:13:32
    you the same answer so we're going to
  • 00:13:33
    have four or five companies will spent
  • 00:13:37
    masses amounts of capital but I don't
  • 00:13:40
    see it as a win or take all model on the
  • 00:13:42
    other hand I think there applications um
  • 00:13:46
    that I haven't even thought of and
  • 00:13:48
    nobody's thought of they're going to
  • 00:13:49
    spring up I mean who would have thought
  • 00:13:51
    of Uber or Facebook when the internet
  • 00:13:54
    started so we're very bullish on AI
  • 00:13:59
    but we're not bullish currently on
  • 00:14:02
    exactly where we're supposed to be and
  • 00:14:04
    how to play it aggressively not unlike
  • 00:14:07
    the internet in 2201 you could have
  • 00:14:10
    believed in the internet not been
  • 00:14:11
    exposed and then got your exposure on a
  • 00:14:14
    more timely basis or I could just be
  • 00:14:16
    wrong which is wouldn't be that unusual
  • 00:14:19
    but you were also early into the
  • 00:14:22
    anti-obesity drug producers oh that was
  • 00:14:24
    easy I mean I don't know what it's like
  • 00:14:27
    in Norway but in America
  • 00:14:30
    yeah if you go to Disney World
  • 00:14:33
    everything and if you know the American
  • 00:14:35
    psyche if you know an American they got
  • 00:14:36
    a way to lose weight without doing any
  • 00:14:38
    work and uh I I knew the drug worked
  • 00:14:42
    early on just because we were exposed to
  • 00:14:45
    it but I and then when I heard if you
  • 00:14:48
    get off the drug you gain the weight
  • 00:14:50
    back then I knew it was sort of a razor
  • 00:14:52
    blade business cuz people would have to
  • 00:14:54
    say on the drug yeah but you say it's C
  • 00:14:56
    but I mean hey it's not like you're the
  • 00:14:57
    only one who is walking around around in
  • 00:14:59
    Disneyland and looking at these kind of
  • 00:15:00
    things right so but you you actually you
  • 00:15:03
    actually act on your Intuition or your
  • 00:15:06
    all the data that's in front of you I do
  • 00:15:08
    but it's it's you know it's not all
  • 00:15:10
    Brilliance I I I bought Nvidia very well
  • 00:15:13
    but I sold it eight or 900 right when
  • 00:15:15
    the party was really getting going and I
  • 00:15:18
    sold my Lily in the high 700s granted
  • 00:15:21
    had a had a nice profit but yeah I look
  • 00:15:25
    for for big trends I'm not about guy
  • 00:15:29
    that holds for 20 years but I look for
  • 00:15:31
    two to four years stuff and both fit
  • 00:15:33
    into that category and frankly we're
  • 00:15:35
    looking now for AI
  • 00:15:37
    applications that might not have been
  • 00:15:39
    recognized yet I think I'm on the board
  • 00:15:41
    of memal slone ketering have been for
  • 00:15:43
    almost 30 years and the applications in
  • 00:15:45
    cancer are unreal and just FYI the
  • 00:15:49
    memorial slone cing is the leading
  • 00:15:50
    cancer hospital in the world yes and
  • 00:15:53
    they have a lot of money in the
  • 00:15:54
    endowment partly because you are on the
  • 00:15:56
    board or the investment committee well
  • 00:15:57
    they have a lot of money in their D and
  • 00:15:59
    I wouldn't say partly because I'm on the
  • 00:16:01
    board but thank you now um when we last
  • 00:16:04
    met you mentioned the concept of buy
  • 00:16:05
    first analyze later tell me about that
  • 00:16:08
    yeah Soros used to call it invest and
  • 00:16:10
    invest and then investigate I think I
  • 00:16:13
    just gave a classic example I didn't
  • 00:16:15
    know that much about Nvidia I just knew
  • 00:16:17
    that Ai and I had some people here tell
  • 00:16:20
    me how to play it so we bought Invidia
  • 00:16:24
    and then we we were in the process of
  • 00:16:26
    doing a lot more work and then chat GPT
  • 00:16:28
    tap and but I've always had the view
  • 00:16:31
    that markets are smart they're fast and
  • 00:16:33
    they're getting much more so with with
  • 00:16:36
    all the communication and the technology
  • 00:16:38
    we have
  • 00:16:39
    today and that if I hear a concept and I
  • 00:16:43
    like it uh if I wait and spend two or
  • 00:16:46
    three months analyzing it I may miss big
  • 00:16:49
    part of the move and then
  • 00:16:50
    psychologically be paralyzed it's hard
  • 00:16:52
    to buy a stock you're looking at at 100
  • 00:16:54
    it's 160 even if it's going to 400
  • 00:16:57
    somehow your your head is screwed up and
  • 00:16:59
    you're waiting for the pullback so we
  • 00:17:01
    will we will buy something a meaningful
  • 00:17:04
    position but not Earth shaking and then
  • 00:17:07
    really do the work and if I think we
  • 00:17:11
    made a mistake I'll sell it and if I
  • 00:17:13
    don't think we made a mistake We'll add
  • 00:17:16
    to it if if we have to yeah no I I I
  • 00:17:20
    happen to have worked exactly the same
  • 00:17:23
    way uh in my life it it really focuses
  • 00:17:26
    in your your work and your efforts your
  • 00:17:29
    thinking but have you always believed in
  • 00:17:31
    your own pattern recognition yes when I
  • 00:17:34
    started in the business I got promoted
  • 00:17:36
    too early so before I had really learned
  • 00:17:40
    the nuts and bolts of the analysis to
  • 00:17:42
    the extent that I should have I was
  • 00:17:44
    promoted to to a to a leadership
  • 00:17:47
    position and I had to rely a lot on
  • 00:17:49
    charts and I had to rely a lot on
  • 00:17:52
    intuition but I found it's not that hard
  • 00:17:55
    if if you're dealing with a psychical
  • 00:17:57
    company and they're losing money or
  • 00:17:59
    they're not profitable and everybody in
  • 00:18:01
    their industry is shutting capacity down
  • 00:18:04
    it doesn't take a rocket scientist to
  • 00:18:06
    try and envision 18 to 24 months out if
  • 00:18:10
    nobody's add in capacity they may not be
  • 00:18:12
    losing money anymore they might be
  • 00:18:13
    making a lot of money I have found it's
  • 00:18:16
    very important never to invest in the
  • 00:18:19
    present always try and envision the
  • 00:18:23
    situation as you see it in 18 to 24
  • 00:18:25
    months and then see if if you feel
  • 00:18:29
    things would be differently than they
  • 00:18:30
    are now would security prices reflect
  • 00:18:33
    that I think that's probably the biggest
  • 00:18:36
    mistake
  • 00:18:37
    investors make is they invest in the
  • 00:18:40
    present rather than forward looking and
  • 00:18:43
    looking where the Puck's going instead
  • 00:18:44
    of where the puck is yeah now um a few
  • 00:18:47
    people believe in other people's
  • 00:18:49
    gutfield did Soros believe in your
  • 00:18:51
    gutfield or did you have to show him
  • 00:18:54
    analysis Soros and I had a rocky start I
  • 00:18:57
    I I went there I had had
  • 00:19:01
    some uh significant success running
  • 00:19:04
    public funds at
  • 00:19:06
    dfus and he told me I was his successor
  • 00:19:09
    but I don't really think his mind was
  • 00:19:12
    completely made up when I got there and
  • 00:19:14
    and the first 6 months were quite Rocky
  • 00:19:17
    because it wasn't clear who was in
  • 00:19:20
    charge um frankly we're both trading
  • 00:19:23
    badly and I was flying to Pittsburgh cuz
  • 00:19:26
    I still had Duane I was running both and
  • 00:19:29
    um when I got off the airplane I think
  • 00:19:32
    we had payones back then we didn't have
  • 00:19:35
    cell phones and uh the head Trader there
  • 00:19:38
    told me he had told out sold out my bond
  • 00:19:40
    position so I probably had a higher
  • 00:19:43
    opinion of myself at the time that I
  • 00:19:44
    should have I was young and I had always
  • 00:19:46
    been in charge so I was quite upset and
  • 00:19:51
    uh basically
  • 00:19:54
    uh expressed extreme displeasure and he
  • 00:19:57
    said we'll talk about it when you come
  • 00:19:59
    back to New
  • 00:20:00
    York um implied that I I wanted to quit
  • 00:20:03
    and he said that uh maybe there were too
  • 00:20:07
    many cooks in the kitchen and he was
  • 00:20:09
    going to Eastern Europe for four or five
  • 00:20:11
    years he'd be out of touch and then he'd
  • 00:20:14
    find out whether he had been in my hair
  • 00:20:17
    or if I really was incompetent that's
  • 00:20:20
    that's sort of the way he talks the way
  • 00:20:22
    we think except he actually says it and
  • 00:20:25
    luckily for me while while he was gone
  • 00:20:28
    the Bur Wall came down I invested in the
  • 00:20:30
    deut mark but I think it was lucky for
  • 00:20:33
    both of us I went on like the best run
  • 00:20:35
    I've had before or since for like four
  • 00:20:37
    years so he kept seeing the results so I
  • 00:20:42
    think he trusted my intuition only
  • 00:20:45
    because the record started that way do
  • 00:20:48
    you trust the intuition of your
  • 00:20:49
    colleagues now I trust their analysis
  • 00:20:52
    they're they're so much deeper and
  • 00:20:55
    better at analysis than I was
  • 00:20:59
    um but I can see the intuition
  • 00:21:02
    developing that uh I'm I'm probably as
  • 00:21:06
    bullish on the talent the equity talent
  • 00:21:09
    in my firm as I've been in 45 years so I
  • 00:21:12
    guess that's that's an ner of yes but
  • 00:21:15
    partly uh brain partly analytics and
  • 00:21:19
    then partly intuition they're not as
  • 00:21:21
    intuitive as I am because it'll have to
  • 00:21:24
    be I was sort of forced to be intuitive
  • 00:21:27
    because I don't I never acquire their
  • 00:21:29
    analytical skills you mentioned some
  • 00:21:31
    examples of where you had sold um a bit
  • 00:21:33
    early do you do you generally sell early
  • 00:21:36
    no I mean embarrassingly I I did an
  • 00:21:39
    interview on Nvidia I think it was like
  • 00:21:41
    370 or something and I said this is one
  • 00:21:43
    we're probably going to own for a few
  • 00:21:45
    years but I didn't think it was going to
  • 00:21:47
    go to 900 in a year uh and to over a$2
  • 00:21:51
    trillion market cap I think it started
  • 00:21:53
    like 100 billion or 150 billion it was
  • 00:21:56
    something crazy um
  • 00:21:59
    so no I don't necessarily sell early I'm
  • 00:22:02
    a technician so I usually wait for Tops
  • 00:22:05
    um Nvidia had no top I just thought um
  • 00:22:10
    what does that just want to explain what
  • 00:22:11
    does it mean to have a top a top is
  • 00:22:14
    something the rate of change of it's
  • 00:22:16
    going up changes and it tends to flatten
  • 00:22:19
    out for quite some time the trick is in
  • 00:22:22
    the technical world that could end up
  • 00:22:24
    being a bull flag where it just
  • 00:22:27
    Consolidated for a bit and then did a
  • 00:22:28
    new leg or it could be a top where that
  • 00:22:33
    was it that was it and how do you know
  • 00:22:34
    which is which you don't you have an
  • 00:22:37
    opinion and um you express it and
  • 00:22:39
    sometimes you're right and sometimes
  • 00:22:41
    you're wrong with
  • 00:22:42
    Nvidia um there was no top but I just
  • 00:22:49
    I've I've analyzed the semiconductors
  • 00:22:51
    industry not particularly well but since
  • 00:22:53
    the
  • 00:22:55
    1970s and it's a cycal industry m and I
  • 00:22:58
    knew Nvidia had staying power and was
  • 00:23:01
    they had 4,000 software Engineers so it
  • 00:23:03
    wasn't just Hardware you know they have
  • 00:23:05
    a Cuda this thing called cuda software
  • 00:23:07
    that they do to to make their gpus but I
  • 00:23:10
    just thought once it went through two
  • 00:23:12
    trillion this is just too much and worst
  • 00:23:16
    case it'll have a big correction I'll
  • 00:23:17
    get another chance and of course I
  • 00:23:20
    didn't get another chance oh you may yes
  • 00:23:22
    I may you think you will uh I don't know
  • 00:23:26
    from this price I assume I will or would
  • 00:23:28
    have bought it back I don't mind buying
  • 00:23:30
    something back higher than I would I
  • 00:23:33
    don't like it but I'm perfectly willing
  • 00:23:35
    to buy something back higher than I sold
  • 00:23:36
    it some people can't get themselves do
  • 00:23:39
    it oh I can I'm the one thing I'm strong
  • 00:23:42
    on is I'm not emotional but um you never
  • 00:23:47
    had a down a no stupid question why is
  • 00:23:50
    that important no good reason I think
  • 00:23:52
    it's it's important because other people
  • 00:23:55
    talk about it and uh my investors loved
  • 00:23:58
    it one ah had of investors because um
  • 00:24:00
    you know they have this stuff in our
  • 00:24:02
    industry you know called risk weighted
  • 00:24:04
    return I'm not big on that but I will
  • 00:24:07
    say it's a stressful job and there's
  • 00:24:10
    less stress if you don't have big draw
  • 00:24:12
    Downs I have had significant draw Downs
  • 00:24:15
    in inner year so part of the down year
  • 00:24:18
    is just luck what does a draw down do to
  • 00:24:20
    you I get uh anxious upset uh you get
  • 00:24:25
    upet even though it's only your money
  • 00:24:26
    yes yeah I'm just
  • 00:24:28
    um I'm a very competitive person even if
  • 00:24:31
    it's just my own money I I wish I wasn't
  • 00:24:35
    but I am and uh it's probably one of the
  • 00:24:38
    reasons my results are as good as they
  • 00:24:39
    are but I prefer myself not to be um
  • 00:24:44
    it's a bit of a sickness but it works
  • 00:24:45
    for me who do you compete against I
  • 00:24:47
    compete against what I would call the
  • 00:24:49
    opportunity set and if there was a great
  • 00:24:52
    opportunity set that year and I missed
  • 00:24:55
    it um I'm disappointed in my myself like
  • 00:24:59
    if I'm up 20 and I think I should have
  • 00:25:00
    been up 50 I'm disappointed in myself if
  • 00:25:03
    the opportunity set was basically to be
  • 00:25:06
    up 10 or 15 and an up 20 I'm thrilled I
  • 00:25:09
    mean the good the good thing about being
  • 00:25:10
    an investor is always a good reason to
  • 00:25:12
    hit yourself in a head right I don't
  • 00:25:13
    know if that's a good thing about our
  • 00:25:16
    business but it's it's probably the bad
  • 00:25:18
    thing about our business and for some
  • 00:25:20
    reason I like to hit myself in the head
  • 00:25:22
    I always measure from the top but you um
  • 00:25:26
    are quick at selling your losers
  • 00:25:28
    what's the key to that if the reason I
  • 00:25:31
    bought a
  • 00:25:32
    stock is no longer the case I don't care
  • 00:25:36
    what I paid for it and if I bought it at
  • 00:25:39
    60 and it's 50 because the markets
  • 00:25:42
    discovered the problem before me I have
  • 00:25:46
    I have no emotion whatsoever um Soros
  • 00:25:50
    was the same way I didn't really learn
  • 00:25:52
    it from him but it was certainly
  • 00:25:54
    reinforced like after a while Nikolai
  • 00:25:57
    you all so develop enough confidence
  • 00:26:00
    that you're not afraid to clean the
  • 00:26:02
    slate and start over cuz you have the
  • 00:26:05
    confidence that you'll be successful
  • 00:26:07
    again and you're not going to sit there
  • 00:26:08
    in a lazy position that you're not that
  • 00:26:11
    sure about anymore just clean house and
  • 00:26:14
    if you've been doing it for decades and
  • 00:26:16
    it's worked you kind of have the
  • 00:26:18
    confidence to take a loss and not worry
  • 00:26:21
    about it too
  • 00:26:22
    much once I'm out I'm out you said you
  • 00:26:25
    don't have feelings what do you what do
  • 00:26:27
    you mean by that did I say don't have
  • 00:26:28
    feelings I have a lot of feelings you
  • 00:26:30
    mean about taking losses yeah just what
  • 00:26:34
    I mean by that is I think one of the
  • 00:26:37
    reasons charts work we have the reason
  • 00:26:41
    there's support and there's um there's
  • 00:26:44
    resistance is the resistance is a bunch
  • 00:26:46
    of people that bought it at 60 and it
  • 00:26:48
    went down and they've been waiting for
  • 00:26:49
    three or four years for it to get back
  • 00:26:51
    to 60 while they could have been in
  • 00:26:53
    something else that was going up the
  • 00:26:54
    whole time um I just don't care
  • 00:26:59
    what I paid for a stock it's absolutely
  • 00:27:01
    irrelevant uh in terms of my investment
  • 00:27:04
    process going forward now this uh
  • 00:27:06
    combination of being on the one hand
  • 00:27:08
    stubborn but other hand being able to
  • 00:27:10
    change your
  • 00:27:11
    mind it's pretty rare I'm told it is
  • 00:27:15
    yeah I told by my friends and other
  • 00:27:17
    investors that
  • 00:27:18
    I'm
  • 00:27:20
    entirely unemotional and
  • 00:27:23
    like yes I am told it's rare is that the
  • 00:27:27
    key to your success you think one of
  • 00:27:29
    them
  • 00:27:30
    I I think I think it's I think it's a
  • 00:27:33
    big part of it I think again um being
  • 00:27:38
    being open-minded and having humility
  • 00:27:40
    the only reason you can change your mind
  • 00:27:43
    is if you're not arrogant about a
  • 00:27:46
    position has mattered I think I had some
  • 00:27:50
    great mentors the one in Pittsburgh and
  • 00:27:52
    then Soros in terms of sizing and I
  • 00:27:55
    think I learned some lessons very early
  • 00:27:57
    on uh
  • 00:28:00
    concentration not to be afraid of
  • 00:28:02
    concentration that that's a big reason
  • 00:28:04
    for my success and probably the other
  • 00:28:07
    big reason was sort of self-taught
  • 00:28:10
    is being willing to go into other asset
  • 00:28:13
    categories and if you're going to
  • 00:28:15
    concentrate it's better to have five
  • 00:28:18
    buckets to plan than to plan one so I
  • 00:28:20
    was brought up in the equity Market but
  • 00:28:23
    sometimes the risk reward in the equity
  • 00:28:25
    Market is not that clear when it
  • 00:28:27
    actually is clear clearing the bond
  • 00:28:28
    market or the currency
  • 00:28:30
    markets and it's a coincidence you asked
  • 00:28:33
    about never h a down year part of it is
  • 00:28:36
    the most action in bonds and currencies
  • 00:28:39
    tends to happen in bare markets and
  • 00:28:41
    Equity markets so you can put the put
  • 00:28:44
    the equities in the drawer for a while
  • 00:28:47
    and just concentrate in those markets I
  • 00:28:49
    think that's been a huge part of my
  • 00:28:51
    successes is it gives you the discipline
  • 00:28:55
    not to play in areas that you don't have
  • 00:28:56
    a lot of conviction in because if you
  • 00:28:58
    got credit to play in if you got
  • 00:29:01
    Commodities to play in currencies or
  • 00:29:03
    bonds you can usually find something
  • 00:29:06
    that you think there's a great risk
  • 00:29:08
    award in it's also they tend to be more
  • 00:29:10
    liquid than Equity markets so to our
  • 00:29:13
    earlier conversation you can change your
  • 00:29:15
    mind when you're wrong what do you learn
  • 00:29:17
    about siing from Source I don't know
  • 00:29:20
    whether you know about do you know
  • 00:29:21
    baseball at all or would your listen
  • 00:29:23
    about I don't play it but uh when I went
  • 00:29:25
    to Soros I thought I would learn what
  • 00:29:28
    would make de Mark go up in the end go
  • 00:29:30
    up and modestly I found I was better at
  • 00:29:32
    that than him um in baseball terms I
  • 00:29:37
    have a I had a very high batting average
  • 00:29:40
    he had a much higher slugging percentage
  • 00:29:43
    um so what I learned from
  • 00:29:45
    Soros is when you have
  • 00:29:48
    conviction you should bet really big I
  • 00:29:51
    know your listeners have probably heard
  • 00:29:53
    it before but I but probably the best
  • 00:29:55
    illustration is the pound yeah so what
  • 00:29:58
    happened so let's go back so you are in
  • 00:29:59
    the office what's happening in the UK so
  • 00:30:02
    I'm in the office in New York and Scott
  • 00:30:06
    bessent um who was a partner of mine in
  • 00:30:10
    Europe mainly trade the European area
  • 00:30:12
    he's in London and he tells me the
  • 00:30:15
    London housing market is in big trouble
  • 00:30:17
    and the British economy is in trouble
  • 00:30:21
    because like most Anglo sex and
  • 00:30:23
    economies at the time it's very much
  • 00:30:24
    driven by housing and so forth Just P it
  • 00:30:28
    out a bit so your office are you like
  • 00:30:29
    overlooking Central Park
  • 00:30:33
    uh I'm not overlooking Central Park but
  • 00:30:36
    I'm near it I I'm in the Soros office on
  • 00:30:38
    32nd Floor but it's okay it's not a
  • 00:30:41
    corner office it's nothing big fail see
  • 00:30:43
    and the UK economy is going down the
  • 00:30:45
    toilet we think the U econom is going
  • 00:30:48
    down but I need to take you back
  • 00:30:50
    about 3 years when the Berlin Wall cam
  • 00:30:54
    comes down it'll probably save me my job
  • 00:30:56
    cuz I probably would have been fir at
  • 00:30:58
    Soros 6 months after he went to Eastern
  • 00:31:01
    Europe had the Berlin wallnut come down
  • 00:31:04
    but um the de Mark went down for two
  • 00:31:07
    days dramatically because the theory in
  • 00:31:11
    the market was the osmark which was the
  • 00:31:13
    East German currency was going to
  • 00:31:15
    pollute the deut Mark I knew German
  • 00:31:18
    history and knew they were obsessed with
  • 00:31:20
    inflation because the viar Republic and
  • 00:31:22
    then that led to Hitler and so forth and
  • 00:31:24
    so on so I knew the Germans were
  • 00:31:26
    absolutely obsessed with inflation I
  • 00:31:29
    knew that all bringing all these East
  • 00:31:31
    Germans into the labor Supply was going
  • 00:31:34
    to cause a boom in the economy so we
  • 00:31:37
    were very bullish on the overall German
  • 00:31:41
    economy and we were very
  • 00:31:43
    convinced that there is no way the
  • 00:31:46
    bundes bank would let inflation so we're
  • 00:31:48
    very convinced it would be accompanied
  • 00:31:49
    by tight monetary policy so we had
  • 00:31:53
    shorted the Italian L
  • 00:31:56
    successfully um during that per period
  • 00:31:58
    so when the when Scott called me we were
  • 00:32:02
    already sort of on this deark journey
  • 00:32:05
    we've been for a few
  • 00:32:06
    years and the British econom is going
  • 00:32:09
    down and new currencies are linked so it
  • 00:32:11
    was a peg right it was a peg so um I
  • 00:32:15
    called and asked how much it would cost
  • 00:32:18
    me to Short the pound versus the deut
  • 00:32:21
    mark for six months it was a half a
  • 00:32:23
    percent I think the fund was around 7
  • 00:32:26
    and a half billion at the time Quantum
  • 00:32:29
    fund and I decided to do an invest and
  • 00:32:33
    then investigate position so I did a
  • 00:32:35
    billion and a half or like 20 25% of the
  • 00:32:39
    fund short the pound long the deut mark
  • 00:32:42
    figuring I'd probably lose a half per
  • 00:32:44
    because it's a Peg and it won't break
  • 00:32:46
    within 6 months but I wanted the
  • 00:32:48
    position on Fast Forward probably about
  • 00:32:51
    five or six weeks the day I believe was
  • 00:32:54
    September 15th not that I would remember
  • 00:32:57
    um
  • 00:32:58
    I read the financial times and the head
  • 00:33:01
    of the bunis
  • 00:33:03
    bank now I'm sure I'm age but I'm pretty
  • 00:33:05
    sure it was te Meer has written an
  • 00:33:09
    editorial in the financial times
  • 00:33:12
    basically in more proper language but
  • 00:33:15
    he's basically saying that the deark and
  • 00:33:17
    the pound should no longer be linked so
  • 00:33:20
    I decide to take Duan and the quantum
  • 00:33:24
    fund to 100% long the deark
  • 00:33:28
    short the pound because it's still a
  • 00:33:30
    half a perc unbelievably now you're
  • 00:33:32
    going to hear vintage Soros so he
  • 00:33:35
    happens to be in New York at the time
  • 00:33:38
    which he wasn't always I go into his
  • 00:33:40
    office and I explain to
  • 00:33:44
    him why I'm going to
  • 00:33:47
    100% And he had a rather large personal
  • 00:33:50
    account that's how we kept each other
  • 00:33:52
    out of each other's hair he traded that
  • 00:33:54
    and you know it was 90 90 95% overlap
  • 00:33:58
    told him why I was doing this and he had
  • 00:34:01
    this um unpleasant puzzled look on his
  • 00:34:04
    face when I'm telling him my thesis that
  • 00:34:06
    this one economy is booming and they
  • 00:34:08
    need higher rates this other economy is
  • 00:34:10
    falling apart they need lower rates
  • 00:34:12
    that's these two currencies shouldn't be
  • 00:34:15
    linked and I'm thinking what does he not
  • 00:34:18
    understand about this because this guy
  • 00:34:20
    pretty much understood
  • 00:34:22
    everything and he says uh look this is
  • 00:34:25
    uh this is a one-way bet they come along
  • 00:34:29
    very very rarely it's ridiculous doing
  • 00:34:32
    100% we should put 200% of the fund in
  • 00:34:35
    this
  • 00:34:36
    trade so there you have it so that means
  • 00:34:38
    that you borrow money in the bank and
  • 00:34:41
    double up yeah on a $7.5 billion fund he
  • 00:34:45
    thought we should have $15
  • 00:34:47
    billion short the pound long the
  • 00:34:51
    deark um it turns out we never got there
  • 00:34:56
    but it shows the way the man thinks I
  • 00:34:58
    saw it over and over again because you
  • 00:35:00
    once you were trading the thing happened
  • 00:35:03
    yeah unfortunately we had a we had a
  • 00:35:05
    pretty strong reputation and when I
  • 00:35:08
    started selling it that night I noticed
  • 00:35:11
    a lot of other hedge funds started
  • 00:35:13
    selling at the gossip community and the
  • 00:35:16
    currency markets and by midnight to 1:00
  • 00:35:19
    the Fords had blown out they'd started
  • 00:35:21
    they at a half a percent they were like
  • 00:35:23
    6 or 7% and it basically wasn't trading
  • 00:35:26
    after 1:00 in the morning
  • 00:35:28
    then the British raised rates I think
  • 00:35:31
    from 6 to 9 to try and stop the bleeding
  • 00:35:34
    and then they went to 12 I knew it was
  • 00:35:36
    over but the forward to rout so much
  • 00:35:38
    didn't matter and it was it was done by
  • 00:35:40
    noon the next day and you were sitting
  • 00:35:42
    at your desk looking at the royter
  • 00:35:44
    screen yes or whatever the screen at the
  • 00:35:46
    time was we only got 7 and a half
  • 00:35:50
    billion done ironically well I have to
  • 00:35:53
    had it not been for Soros I probably
  • 00:35:54
    would have not got to the 7 and a half
  • 00:35:56
    cuz you know intending to do 15 I was in
  • 00:35:59
    a bigger hurry so what did you feel when
  • 00:36:02
    when he broke there was a lot of
  • 00:36:04
    adrenaline um it was exciting I didn't
  • 00:36:06
    feel bad because I thought the British
  • 00:36:09
    economy needed it I was gratified years
  • 00:36:11
    later when they changed it from black
  • 00:36:13
    Wednesday to White Wednesday then I went
  • 00:36:15
    into action after it broke because the
  • 00:36:18
    guilts were down two points which I
  • 00:36:21
    thought was
  • 00:36:22
    ridiculous British needed lower rates
  • 00:36:24
    there's some theory in the Academia that
  • 00:36:27
    if you have a weak currency your
  • 00:36:29
    interest rates have to go up so I bought
  • 00:36:30
    guilts I bought British stocks there was
  • 00:36:33
    a whole because what happened was that
  • 00:36:35
    the currency depreciated and it was good
  • 00:36:37
    for exports right so the stocks went up
  • 00:36:38
    afterwards the stocks went up the guilts
  • 00:36:41
    went up because they needed lower rates
  • 00:36:43
    and you know they'd been held
  • 00:36:45
    artificially high so there was all kinds
  • 00:36:47
    of other stuff I did around it uh which
  • 00:36:51
    is kind of the way I trade you get a
  • 00:36:54
    theme and then you look at the
  • 00:36:56
    concentric circles or the or The
  • 00:36:57
    Dominoes that fall because of a
  • 00:37:00
    theme and but the point was with Soros
  • 00:37:04
    if he really believe something the
  • 00:37:07
    position could be never be big enough
  • 00:37:09
    yeah particularly if it's in a liquid
  • 00:37:11
    market and I learned from him I like to
  • 00:37:15
    play the turn maybe my ego in in a in a
  • 00:37:19
    big turn in something he was perfectly
  • 00:37:21
    happy to play from the third to the
  • 00:37:23
    sixth inning if we go back to baseball
  • 00:37:25
    terms of it's a nine inning game he was
  • 00:37:27
    perfectly happy to play the third to
  • 00:37:29
    sixth inning when there was more
  • 00:37:30
    certainty on much greater leverage he
  • 00:37:33
    had more courage than I did in terms of
  • 00:37:36
    sizing positions I don't think it
  • 00:37:38
    totally rubbed off on me but it
  • 00:37:40
    certainly helped and it it was a huge
  • 00:37:42
    learning experience I think the major
  • 00:37:45
    thing I learned with him is it's not
  • 00:37:47
    whether you're right or wrong it's how
  • 00:37:48
    much you make when you're right and how
  • 00:37:49
    much you lose when you're wrong and
  • 00:37:51
    that's what he was probably as good as
  • 00:37:53
    anybody who's ever been at Stan um many
  • 00:37:56
    people have heard about the pound but um
  • 00:37:59
    not many people know that you also did
  • 00:38:02
    the Swedish Groner yes um my memory's a
  • 00:38:06
    little
  • 00:38:07
    less clear on that one as to the
  • 00:38:11
    reasoning but it was just
  • 00:38:13
    another another victim of the deark yeah
  • 00:38:16
    um I assume there was some kind of
  • 00:38:19
    Divergence between the two economies and
  • 00:38:21
    and there was a peg that I thought was
  • 00:38:24
    inappropriate and it turned out yeah
  • 00:38:26
    that worked out so you took that Peg too
  • 00:38:29
    but you took another Peg too because I
  • 00:38:31
    thought you were also involved with the
  • 00:38:32
    tibot yeah the tibot was easy they they
  • 00:38:36
    um but but nobody knows about this right
  • 00:38:39
    no I think um Sebastian Malby wrote a
  • 00:38:42
    book called more money than God there's
  • 00:38:44
    a whole chapter on the tibot that was
  • 00:38:46
    not on the Swedish croner no the Swedish
  • 00:38:48
    croner no no I prefer nobody knew any of
  • 00:38:51
    this stuff but well we need to get it
  • 00:38:53
    right for the history books I'm happy to
  • 00:38:54
    talk about it 25 years later any trades
  • 00:38:57
    you regret not making oh
  • 00:39:00
    there's there's trades I regret not
  • 00:39:02
    making um constantly I'd say one of the
  • 00:39:06
    biggest mistakes I made was having
  • 00:39:09
    predicted the inflation really early and
  • 00:39:12
    feeling so strongly about it I wrote a
  • 00:39:15
    piece in the Wall Street Journal with my
  • 00:39:16
    partner Christian broa in the spring of
  • 00:39:19
    21 I had a mass of short for me in two
  • 00:39:24
    years um sort of like we just talked
  • 00:39:28
    about with the pound it was a one-way
  • 00:39:30
    bet they were 15 basis points and I was
  • 00:39:33
    so measured by where they'd win where
  • 00:39:37
    they'd been I took most of them off at
  • 00:39:40
    like 150 basis points it seemed like a
  • 00:39:42
    great win from 15 to basis point to 150
  • 00:39:46
    but as you know they went to 500 I
  • 00:39:49
    regret deeply not holding that position
  • 00:39:52
    there's probably 30 others but I prefer
  • 00:39:54
    to forget my mistakes do you think
  • 00:39:57
    machines can take the place of humans
  • 00:39:59
    when it comes to investing no I don't
  • 00:40:02
    but I think they can work um as a CO
  • 00:40:07
    co-pilot and the combination can beat
  • 00:40:10
    anything a mere human could be I'm lucky
  • 00:40:13
    enough to have known Gary caspro for a
  • 00:40:16
    long time I'm co-founder of the casprov
  • 00:40:19
    chess
  • 00:40:21
    Foundation um for no good reason I I I
  • 00:40:24
    can hardly play chess my 9-year-old
  • 00:40:26
    daughter was beating me that's how I
  • 00:40:28
    started with Gary but um he was probably
  • 00:40:31
    one of the first guys to use machines to
  • 00:40:34
    train himself and work with them I could
  • 00:40:37
    see the same thing happening with money
  • 00:40:39
    management so I don't think the pure
  • 00:40:42
    machines they'll make money because they
  • 00:40:44
    have a disciplined process and there's
  • 00:40:46
    math but I think if you could find an
  • 00:40:49
    intuitive investor who's using Ai and
  • 00:40:53
    other things to supplement I think that
  • 00:40:56
    would probably be the top investor in
  • 00:40:59
    the world not a machine now you took um
  • 00:41:02
    sabatical in 200000 yeah what was the
  • 00:41:05
    reason behind
  • 00:41:07
    that it's a it's a painful but really
  • 00:41:10
    fun story um it really it really
  • 00:41:15
    starts in
  • 00:41:18
    1998 well no it starts in the spring of
  • 00:41:21
    1999 I shorted I think it was 11 or 12
  • 00:41:25
    internet stocks not the leaders like aoi
  • 00:41:29
    or Yahoo but the also rans and I I
  • 00:41:33
    believe the position was like $200
  • 00:41:36
    million and in like four
  • 00:41:39
    weeks I had lost like $600 million so it
  • 00:41:43
    was the first time I'd ever had a big
  • 00:41:46
    draw down I was down like 16 or
  • 00:41:50
    7% in the spring of 99 I then pivoted
  • 00:41:55
    and realized that green span e because
  • 00:41:57
    of the agent financial crisis while our
  • 00:42:00
    economy was strong and we had the
  • 00:42:01
    internet and all this behind it I went
  • 00:42:04
    out and hired um a couple of young
  • 00:42:07
    managers to buy tech stocks that I
  • 00:42:10
    didn't know how to spell they had their
  • 00:42:11
    own little accounts and like I would
  • 00:42:13
    plow in on top of their
  • 00:42:15
    positions and we ended up the year I
  • 00:42:19
    think something like 42 net or something
  • 00:42:22
    after being in this deole because you
  • 00:42:25
    know I rode this crazy n sck wave in 99
  • 00:42:29
    so then uh in January I just said this
  • 00:42:34
    is ridiculous and um I sold out all my
  • 00:42:38
    tech Holdings like I can't remember it
  • 00:42:41
    was like they had grown to like $
  • 00:42:43
    billion dollar or it was it was enormous
  • 00:42:45
    for that period of time and I actually
  • 00:42:47
    went and told Soros why I had sold them
  • 00:42:50
    out and next thing that happens the two
  • 00:42:54
    little satellites inside they don't sell
  • 00:42:57
    out they're gamblers I don't really care
  • 00:43:00
    cuz quantum's huge and they're this
  • 00:43:01
    little thing they're not going to affect
  • 00:43:03
    the performance that much but Nikolai
  • 00:43:05
    they're making like four to 5% a day I
  • 00:43:09
    mean the market is still roaring going
  • 00:43:11
    into March and I'm uh I'm watching this
  • 00:43:15
    and I'm
  • 00:43:16
    getting really annoyed with myself that
  • 00:43:19
    I'm not I'm not still in this trade and
  • 00:43:21
    then uh around early March I can't take
  • 00:43:25
    it anymore and I told you earlier I'm
  • 00:43:28
    not emotional this was this was a real
  • 00:43:32
    emotional really dumb move um I buy
  • 00:43:36
    everything
  • 00:43:37
    back I think I missed the top by about
  • 00:43:40
    an
  • 00:43:41
    hour so I buy back all these tech
  • 00:43:45
    stocks and within a week I know I'm dead
  • 00:43:49
    and Quantum goes from like up 14% to up
  • 00:43:52
    1% in a
  • 00:43:54
    week and I go in and I now I've already
  • 00:43:57
    been through the trauma of the spring
  • 00:43:59
    before I recovered from it but it it had
  • 00:44:02
    a big effect on me the the stress I had
  • 00:44:05
    young kids you know and it's like a
  • 00:44:09
    repeat of the year before so I go into
  • 00:44:12
    Soros and I tell them two things a I'm
  • 00:44:16
    getting out of all this stuff B uh I'm
  • 00:44:21
    quitting um we can't tell anybody cuz I
  • 00:44:24
    got I got to liquidate this portfolio
  • 00:44:26
    but the NASDAQ is in the beginning wave
  • 00:44:30
    of a Down 90% move and you can't get out
  • 00:44:32
    so by the time I get out takes a few
  • 00:44:35
    weeks the fund is down like
  • 00:44:38
    177% and duain is down
  • 00:44:41
    177% and uh I'm just exhausted I've been
  • 00:44:44
    running this high-profile fund for 12
  • 00:44:47
    years so I sell everything out
  • 00:44:50
    everything of
  • 00:44:52
    duaine send my investors a letter and
  • 00:44:55
    say uh I'm going on a sabatical I don't
  • 00:44:59
    know whether I'm coming back or not you
  • 00:45:02
    can take all your money out but if you
  • 00:45:04
    take your money out if I decide to come
  • 00:45:06
    back I can't guarantee I'll let you back
  • 00:45:09
    in I think I had like 200 clients one of
  • 00:45:12
    them pulled their money I remember who
  • 00:45:14
    it was but they'll remain anonymous for
  • 00:45:17
    now
  • 00:45:18
    so I I shut everything down I go to
  • 00:45:23
    Africa with my wife and kids and the
  • 00:45:26
    best thing I did is during the summer I
  • 00:45:28
    refused to expose myself in any way to
  • 00:45:32
    something that would tell me where the
  • 00:45:34
    markets were so I'm not allowed to watch
  • 00:45:37
    TV I'm not allowed to see the Wall
  • 00:45:39
    Street Journal prices nothing so I come
  • 00:45:42
    back in labor day I think my wife
  • 00:45:45
    couldn't have handled me being around uh
  • 00:45:48
    once the kids go back to
  • 00:45:50
    school uh sort of humor maybe not uh
  • 00:45:55
    so I come back and it's remarkable
  • 00:45:58
    because the S&P has rallied back almost
  • 00:46:02
    to the high the nasdaq's retrace about
  • 00:46:05
    85% of the decline but the dollar is up
  • 00:46:09
    interest rates are up and oil is up
  • 00:46:12
    three death nails for markets if you
  • 00:46:15
    look at history so I then start calling
  • 00:46:18
    all my clients who are basically small
  • 00:46:20
    businessmen they're not fancy
  • 00:46:22
    institutions and all their
  • 00:46:25
    businesses are terrible
  • 00:46:27
    so then I call Ed Heyman and I say he
  • 00:46:30
    Equity strategists microeconomist yeah
  • 00:46:33
    he's probably was the number one
  • 00:46:35
    institutional guy whatever that rating
  • 00:46:37
    Institutional Investor
  • 00:46:39
    Economist and um I say this is very odd
  • 00:46:44
    and I've been out of touch dollars up
  • 00:46:46
    blah blah blah blah and uh two days
  • 00:46:50
    later in his daily missive he has
  • 00:46:53
    regression analysis and it says um it's
  • 00:46:57
    50% I think currency 25% oil and 25%
  • 00:47:01
    interest rates and it looks one year
  • 00:47:05
    forward and it predicts earnings and
  • 00:47:09
    it's predicting that earnings are going
  • 00:47:11
    to decline 36% the next year and the
  • 00:47:15
    Wall Street consensuses are going to go
  • 00:47:17
    up 18% so combination of that listening
  • 00:47:21
    to my clients the fact that Greenspan
  • 00:47:24
    got a tightening directive on which I
  • 00:47:25
    think is inappropriate
  • 00:47:28
    I start buying all these
  • 00:47:30
    treasuries and the market doesn't go my
  • 00:47:32
    way but all the information keeps going
  • 00:47:34
    so I keep buying more and more and more
  • 00:47:36
    and more so now I have a 350% tenure
  • 00:47:42
    equivalent in the fund and then I get
  • 00:47:45
    lucky with the gore Bush
  • 00:47:48
    Fiasco economy falls apart I end up
  • 00:47:51
    making 40% in the fourth quarter so I
  • 00:47:55
    had I had written the year off I I when
  • 00:47:57
    I came back I'm down 18 I assume okay at
  • 00:48:00
    least I got don't have to worry about
  • 00:48:02
    this anymore i' finally going to have it
  • 00:48:04
    down year and it's like the best quarter
  • 00:48:07
    I ever had and to this day if I had
  • 00:48:10
    stayed managing money I think I'd been
  • 00:48:13
    tied of knots and there's no way I would
  • 00:48:15
    make that trade it was the fact that I
  • 00:48:16
    was a raid for four months had a clean
  • 00:48:20
    slate had a clear head and just looked
  • 00:48:22
    at the New
  • 00:48:23
    Evidence so it was a very very very
  • 00:48:27
    horrible beginning and a very lucky
  • 00:48:30
    ending now you don't take um four months
  • 00:48:33
    off very often uh you work very hard
  • 00:48:35
    when do you wake up in the morning 4 4
  • 00:48:37
    in the morning yeah what do you do uh I
  • 00:48:40
    you have you have an an office at home
  • 00:48:42
    right yeah yeah I immediately go to the
  • 00:48:44
    Bloomberg and 4:00 you do you make a cup
  • 00:48:46
    of coffee before you go to Bloomberg or
  • 00:48:47
    straight to Bloomberg yes no yeah I make
  • 00:48:50
    a cup of coffee I go up I don't shower
  • 00:48:52
    yet check all the markets read the
  • 00:48:55
    journal
  • 00:48:57
    skim the financial times skim the New
  • 00:48:59
    York Times check like all the emails
  • 00:49:02
    overnight when I say check I mean skim
  • 00:49:04
    them for the important ones then it's
  • 00:49:07
    probably uh 5:15 or 5:30 take a shower
  • 00:49:11
    go to work start all over again when you
  • 00:49:13
    go to bed uh usually around 8:30 qu or 9
  • 00:49:16
    as soon as I see Japan what's happening
  • 00:49:19
    you basically live according to
  • 00:49:20
    financial markets yes uh my
  • 00:49:22
    mother-in-law said a long time ago I'm
  • 00:49:24
    an idiot savant she thought she was
  • 00:49:26
    joking but she's correct it's the only
  • 00:49:29
    thing I'm really good at I really enjoy
  • 00:49:31
    it keeps me young I'm dealing with
  • 00:49:33
    brilliant young people here as analysts
  • 00:49:35
    but also I forc to read the newspaper
  • 00:49:38
    and forc to learn about these waves and
  • 00:49:41
    uh keeps me stimulated I love it now you
  • 00:49:44
    are 71 right yes and you will continue
  • 00:49:47
    until you until you die you think
  • 00:49:51
    yes hopefully it won't be
  • 00:49:55
    tonight no I think probably not I do um
  • 00:49:59
    s last thing we got 10 thousands of
  • 00:50:00
    young people here now they want to be
  • 00:50:03
    like you make a lot of money be
  • 00:50:05
    successful in financial markets what
  • 00:50:06
    should they be doing how should they
  • 00:50:09
    enter what what should they think about
  • 00:50:11
    first of all if they're going in it for
  • 00:50:14
    the money they should go elsewhere yeah
  • 00:50:17
    there's too many people in the business
  • 00:50:19
    like me that just love the game and the
  • 00:50:21
    passion for reasons I just
  • 00:50:24
    articulated and they're not going to be
  • 00:50:26
    to out work the people that are
  • 00:50:28
    passionate in the game and it's not a
  • 00:50:31
    fun game if you're losing it's horrible
  • 00:50:33
    I
  • 00:50:34
    just told you and the how I respond to
  • 00:50:37
    draw Downs so but if they have a passion
  • 00:50:40
    for it if I was a young person I would
  • 00:50:42
    not get an MBA I'd go find a mentor and
  • 00:50:47
    if they didn't want me I would just
  • 00:50:49
    relentlessly bug the hell out of them
  • 00:50:50
    which a couple of have done with me
  • 00:50:53
    until they finally accepted me to go and
  • 00:50:56
    work for them learn what I could from
  • 00:50:58
    them if they still like the business
  • 00:51:00
    just keep trying to grow your knowledge
  • 00:51:02
    base I would say an analyst skill set in
  • 00:51:06
    our business is completely different
  • 00:51:08
    than a portfolio manager skill set once
  • 00:51:11
    in a while you'll get an overlap but I
  • 00:51:15
    would be careful if they really love the
  • 00:51:17
    the analyst part which is where we all
  • 00:51:19
    start of thinking they have to become a
  • 00:51:22
    portfolio manager I've seen it ruin
  • 00:51:25
    people's lives who weren't built for
  • 00:51:27
    trigger pulling so they should be
  • 00:51:28
    open-minded I got in the business
  • 00:51:31
    because I wanted intellectual
  • 00:51:32
    stimulation and you're going to get
  • 00:51:34
    plenty in either one but that would be
  • 00:51:37
    that would be my advice to them and be
  • 00:51:40
    open-minded stand this been a an epic
  • 00:51:44
    conversation thanks Nikolai I probably
  • 00:51:47
    said more than I should have you said
  • 00:51:48
    exact we get in too much trouble thank
  • 00:51:51
    you
  • 00:51:52
    [Music]
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