Ancient Language Learning DESTROYS Modern Methods - How to Become Fluent FAST
Summary
TLDRDenne samtalen utforsker språkopplæring imellom antikken og nåtiden, med fokus på hvordan latin og gresk ble undervist. En professor ved Universitetet i Reading snakker om sine metoder for å studere gamle språk og deres undervisningsteknikker. Det diskuteres emner som memorering, behovet for lærere, og effekten av motivasjon og deltakelse i språklæring.
Takeaways
- 📜 Antikken lærte språk gjennom direkte instruksjon og memorering.
- 🗣️ Muntlig kommunikasjon var prioritert i språkopplæringen.
- 📚 Vokabular var essensielt, da ordbøker var begrensede.
- 🏫 Læringsmiljøet var individuelt tilpasset elevenes evner.
- 🌍 I dag er det mer fokus på grammatikk og strukturerte klasser.
- 🙋 Motivasjon er avgjørende for å oppnå språklæring.
- ✨ Comprehensible input-teori hjelper med meningsfull læring.
- 🔄 Språkferdigheter bygges opp over tid med praksis.
- 💬 Samtale med lærere eller parten er viktig for språkforståelse.
- 📖 Lærebøker gir strukturert tilgang til språkinnhold.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
I dagens samfunn er vi den mest litterate kulturen som noen gang har eksistert. Historisk læring, som læring av latin for 2000 år siden, har ingen parallell til dagens metoder som Duolingo.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Antikkens utdanningssystem var preget av individuell læring, der repetisjon og hukommelse var sentralt. Utdanningen begynte når foreldrene mente barna var modne.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Som professor forsker jeg på latin og gresk og hvordan disse språkene ble undervist og forstått. Antikkens læringsmetoder skiller seg betydelig fra moderne klasserom.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
For eksempel er det et misoppfatning at greske talere ikke lånte fra latin. Faktisk ble mange latinske ord adoptert i gresk etter det romerske imperiets utvidelse.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Når vi lærer erobrer vi også kulturelle kontekster - slik som lån av ord for mat og klær som reflekterer samtidens sosiale forhold.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Min forskning inkluderer også gjenspeilning av hvordan barn i antikken lærte. Gjennom prosjekter som gjenkonstruksjon av gamle klasserom lærer vi barn hvordan de skrev og studerte på vokstavler.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Læring i antikken handlet ikke bare om skrift, men også muntlig kommunikasjon. Læring av språk skulle skje naturlig, kombinert med samtaler med lærere.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Selv om det i dag finnes mange metoder for språkinnlæring, er det ingen one-size-fits-all. Individuell motivasjon og interesse spiller en stor rolle.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
Antikken har mye å lære oss om hvordan språk ble ervervet - ved hjelp av muntlig instruksjon, repetisjon og kulturell deling.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
I moderne tid er det nødvendig med en balansert tilnærming til språklæring, som kombinerer grammatikk, skriftlig, samtale og kulturell utveksling.
- 00:50:00 - 00:56:57
Vi bør også vurdere den personlige læringsmetoden - hvilke metoder fungerer best for den enkelte, og dermed tilpasse utdanningen til deres behov.
Mind Map
Video Q&A
Hvordan lærte folk latin i antikken?
Folk lærte latin gjennom individuell undervisning fra lærere, med vekt på memorering av vokabular og bruk av klassifiserte ordbøker.
Hva er de største forskjellene mellom språkopplæring nå og i antikken?
I antikken var det mye mer fokus på muntlig kommunikasjon, memorering og individuell læring uten moderne hjelpemidler som ordbøker og læringsplattformer.
Hvilken rolle spiller motivasjon i språklæring?
Motivasjon er avgjørende, da den påvirker hvor mye tid og innsats læreren investerer i å lære språket.
Hvordan skiller antikkens læringsmetoder seg fra dagens?
Antikken fokuserte på muntlig kommunikasjon og forståelse gjennom praktisk bruk, mens dagens metoder ofte inkluderer mye grammatikk og strukturerte kurs.
Hvilke tips har du for å lære latin eller spansk?
Finn en lærer eller språkpartner, bruk lærebøker med grammatikk og praksis, og snakk regelmessig på språket.
Hva er 'comprehensible input'?
Dette er en teori om språklæring som foreslår at man lærer best gjennom meningsfullt og forståelig språkinnhold.
Er det vanlig at folk faller ut av språklæring?
Ja, mange gir opp språklæring hvis de ikke ser fremgang eller ikke opplever tidlige suksesser.
Hvordan var skolen i antikken?
Skolen var typisk individuell, uten faste starttider, og elevene arbeidet gjennom spesifikke oppgaver med lærerens veiledning.
Hvor viktig er grammatikk i språklæring?
Grammatikk er viktig, men det er også avgjørende å ikke bli overveldet av det, og å bruke språket aktivt.
Hvilke språk snakker du?
Professoren snakker fransk, tysk, latin, gresk og har kjennskap til flere andre språk.
View more video summaries
- 00:00:00we are the most literate society that
- 00:00:01has ever existed so we have enormous
- 00:00:04amounts of information Antiquity is not
- 00:00:06like that how people learned Latin let's
- 00:00:09say 2,000 years ago because clearly they
- 00:00:11didn't have dualingo and they didn't
- 00:00:13have this conversation wasn't happening
- 00:00:15like this yes they use a lot of rote
- 00:00:17memory in Antiquity pretty much all of
- 00:00:19the education is individual you start
- 00:00:21school when your parents think that you
- 00:00:24have that maturity learning vocab is
- 00:00:27really really important in the ancient
- 00:00:29world because you cannot use a
- 00:00:31dictionary you know you can't look them
- 00:00:39up so I'm a professor at the University
- 00:00:43of reading um and that means that part
- 00:00:47of my time I teach undergraduates about
- 00:00:49the ancient world and part of my time I
- 00:00:53do research about the ancient world so I
- 00:00:55try to discover things about it that are
- 00:00:57not already known so in terms of
- 00:01:00research I'm a linguist and I work
- 00:01:03specifically on the kind of the Latin
- 00:01:06and Greek languages and how how well
- 00:01:09partly just how they work but also how
- 00:01:12people understood them and how people
- 00:01:14taught them in Antiquity so for example
- 00:01:17we know how we learn Latin today it's
- 00:01:19not a secret what happens in a Latin
- 00:01:22class there are textbooks Etc but what
- 00:01:24happened in a Latin class 2,000 years
- 00:01:27ago supposing you were an ancient Greek
- 00:01:29and you wanted to learn Latin was your
- 00:01:32Latin class like our Latin class well no
- 00:01:34it wasn't is the answer and so I look at
- 00:01:38what we can know about what their Latin
- 00:01:41classes were actually like I also look
- 00:01:44at what actually happens with the
- 00:01:46language so for example I've just
- 00:01:49published a book on Latin lone words in
- 00:01:52ancient Greek so we tend to think well
- 00:01:54Greek speakers they weren't borrowing
- 00:01:56words from Latin it wasn't cool to
- 00:01:58borrow words from Latin whereas speakers
- 00:02:00are always borrowing words from Greek
- 00:02:01it's very very cool to borrow words from
- 00:02:03Greek but actually that's not true there
- 00:02:05are an awful lot of words that Greek
- 00:02:07speakers do borrow from Latin now we're
- 00:02:11not talking in the fifth century BC here
- 00:02:13we're talking more like in the 2 Century
- 00:02:15ad when the Greek speakers are all part
- 00:02:18of the Roman Empire and that's why
- 00:02:20they're borrowing words but I'm also
- 00:02:22looking like which words are they
- 00:02:24borrowing why are they borrowing those
- 00:02:27particular words some words are
- 00:02:30obviously like it is cool to borrow this
- 00:02:32word and other words aren't and that
- 00:02:35partly has to do with what kind of
- 00:02:37categories they are and that Maps
- 00:02:39interestingly onto lone words today so
- 00:02:43like you think about where do we borrow
- 00:02:46words well we like to borrow words for
- 00:02:47food for example there's an awful lot of
- 00:02:50foreign words in English for food and
- 00:02:52that's not just true because obviously
- 00:02:54we borrow the food yes I mean if you're
- 00:02:56going to if you're going to borrow the
- 00:02:57taco it kind of makes sense to borrow
- 00:02:59the the word Taco but it goes further
- 00:03:01than that because foods that we didn't
- 00:03:03borrow we still like to use a French
- 00:03:05word for and that has to do with many
- 00:03:08cultures just finding it cool to use a
- 00:03:12foreign word for Foods also for clothes
- 00:03:15um we like to borrow French words for
- 00:03:17clothes and the French like to borrow
- 00:03:19English words for clothes and back in
- 00:03:21Antiquity the Romans borrow Greek words
- 00:03:23for food and clothes and the Greeks
- 00:03:24borrowed Latin words for food and
- 00:03:25clothes so there's a a kind of something
- 00:03:29amiliar about the the way that they're
- 00:03:32borrowing these words so that's what I
- 00:03:34do in terms of research and then the
- 00:03:36that's not the main part of my life the
- 00:03:39the other half of what I do is teaching
- 00:03:42so I teach undergraduates and I teach
- 00:03:44graduate students um and then I teach
- 00:03:47school children because I've got a
- 00:03:49project called the reading ancient
- 00:03:50School room where we reconstruct what an
- 00:03:53ancient School looks like and what
- 00:03:55people actually did in an ancient school
- 00:03:58and then we invite children to come and
- 00:04:02find out not only what it's like to
- 00:04:03write on a wax tablet but what kinds of
- 00:04:06things you actually did write on a wax
- 00:04:08tablet if you were an ancient child wow
- 00:04:12okay where to start let's go back to the
- 00:04:15very some of the very first things that
- 00:04:17you said before we get into my journey
- 00:04:22of language I think it'll come out
- 00:04:23naturally through the evolution of this
- 00:04:26conversation you said that you studied
- 00:04:28kind of how people learn learned Latin
- 00:04:30let's say 2,000 years ago because
- 00:04:32clearly they didn't have dualingo and
- 00:04:34they didn't have this conversation
- 00:04:36wasn't happening like this I couldn't
- 00:04:38get across uh you know Mainland Europe
- 00:04:40to to speak to you Etc so how different
- 00:04:43was it and how effective was it compared
- 00:04:46to the way we're doing it now yeah as
- 00:04:49far as I can work out and you know the
- 00:04:52data are not going to be huge on this
- 00:04:54point but as far as I can work out it's
- 00:04:56roughly equally effective that's to say
- 00:04:58I've got no evidence that it's more
- 00:05:00effective or less effective and that's
- 00:05:02partly because if you think about
- 00:05:05language learning today there's a huge
- 00:05:08range of effectivenesses so there's
- 00:05:10plenty of people who you know they tried
- 00:05:12to learn a foreign language and they
- 00:05:14didn't get anywhere nothing happened and
- 00:05:16you know maybe they spent four years in
- 00:05:19school learning French but it doesn't
- 00:05:21mean that today they can walk into a
- 00:05:24shop in France and buy something really
- 00:05:26really simple and common they just they
- 00:05:28didn't learn any French
- 00:05:30um but then there are other people who
- 00:05:33maybe they didn't have any more exposure
- 00:05:36to French than that first person and
- 00:05:38they have learned French and they can go
- 00:05:40carry on a conversation so there's a
- 00:05:43huge range in how effective language
- 00:05:46learning is because it's not just about
- 00:05:48the method that's used but also about
- 00:05:50the person who's learning um if that
- 00:05:53person kind of really wants to learn the
- 00:05:55language and really makes an effort it
- 00:05:58just comes out really different from if
- 00:06:00that person is not genuinely interested
- 00:06:03and there's also an issue that different
- 00:06:05learning styles really suit different
- 00:06:07people so there are some people who work
- 00:06:11really well by their ears they can pick
- 00:06:13up a lot of information that way um they
- 00:06:18can they can retain it well it just
- 00:06:21works really well and other people
- 00:06:24they're just not good at learning things
- 00:06:26using their ears they might be however
- 00:06:28good at Learning things another way and
- 00:06:33like for example you give them written
- 00:06:35texts and they'll do much better some
- 00:06:37people are good at learning things with
- 00:06:39grammar some people are not good at
- 00:06:41learning things with grammar and so any
- 00:06:45language learning system that you use is
- 00:06:48going to work for some people in your
- 00:06:49class and not for
- 00:06:51others and whether some people that will
- 00:06:54almost always work for and some people
- 00:06:56almost never work for there's also a
- 00:06:57group of people for whom it's going to
- 00:06:59work with one system and not H another
- 00:07:01but those are not equally distributed if
- 00:07:03you see what I mean um I don't think
- 00:07:05it's really true that like one system is
- 00:07:08inherently better it's that different
- 00:07:11people have different brains and
- 00:07:13different things will work for them
- 00:07:14which unfortunately you do not know when
- 00:07:16you start your class which of my
- 00:07:18students need this and which of my
- 00:07:20students need that
- 00:07:23so so it's really hard to gauge
- 00:07:26Effectiveness today and it's even harder
- 00:07:28to gauge effectiveness in Antiquity
- 00:07:31where we have the results but we almost
- 00:07:33never have the information on how long
- 00:07:36it took to achieve those results so some
- 00:07:39people learned some Latin speakers
- 00:07:42learned Greek and some Greek speakers
- 00:07:44learned Latin really really well no
- 00:07:46question about that we've got the
- 00:07:49results how much time and effort did it
- 00:07:53take them that we almost never have um
- 00:07:57so I you know it's it's very hard to
- 00:08:00know but could they could they learn it
- 00:08:05you know not as native speakers not not
- 00:08:08as little children but learning it later
- 00:08:10could they learn it so that they knew it
- 00:08:12really well the answer is definitely yes
- 00:08:14we have people writing in languages that
- 00:08:17we know they are not native speakers of
- 00:08:20and doing it effectively
- 00:08:23flawlessly wow okay then uh just one
- 00:08:28followup to that before I give my my my
- 00:08:31ideas in that what were they
- 00:08:33specifically doing though were they more
- 00:08:35doing translation of text did they have
- 00:08:38a tutor who would constantly speak to
- 00:08:41them in that language what was the if
- 00:08:43there is any or if you have any data or
- 00:08:46understanding of what the predominant
- 00:08:48method you know like we have a
- 00:08:50traditional method now in school what
- 00:08:53was their predominant predominant method
- 00:08:56right so they do have a teacher who can
- 00:09:00speak to them in that in that second
- 00:09:03language
- 00:09:04definitely um it's not always a native
- 00:09:07speaker but they they do have a teacher
- 00:09:09who can speak it right okay they don't
- 00:09:13when they talk about learning a foreign
- 00:09:15language they don't say I want to learn
- 00:09:18to read Latin or I want to learn to read
- 00:09:20Greek they say I want to learn to speak
- 00:09:23Latin or I want to learn to speak Greek
- 00:09:26because even though they will in most
- 00:09:28cases learn to read and right that's not
- 00:09:31what they see as the key element in
- 00:09:34knowing a foreign language it's being
- 00:09:35able to speak it and that of course is
- 00:09:38because both Latin and Greek are living
- 00:09:40languages in Antiquity so nowadays there
- 00:09:43are people who speak Latin and ancient
- 00:09:45Greek
- 00:09:46but that's not the main reason that most
- 00:09:49people would learn those languages the
- 00:09:51main reason would be to read it but
- 00:09:52that's just not really true in Antiquity
- 00:09:54they their living languages which you
- 00:09:56know makes total sense um they have a
- 00:09:59teacher and the teacher can speak the
- 00:10:02language and they have a dictionary and
- 00:10:06the dictionary is arranged by subject
- 00:10:10it's a bilingual dictionary and it's got
- 00:10:14um little little sections with maybe 10
- 00:10:17to 20 words in each
- 00:10:19section on different topics now learning
- 00:10:24vocab is really really important in the
- 00:10:26ancient world because when they write
- 00:10:28they do not leave spaces between the
- 00:10:30words
- 00:10:32so if you want to read a text in
- 00:10:36Antiquity you need to know what the
- 00:10:38words are yes you need to be able to
- 00:10:39recognize them because if you do not
- 00:10:42recognize the words you cannot use a
- 00:10:44dictionary you know you can't look them
- 00:10:46up so now a Latin student will say gosh
- 00:10:48I've never seen this word
- 00:10:51senatus let me look in the dictionary
- 00:10:53I'll look under s because it begins with
- 00:10:55s but the student knows it begins with s
- 00:10:57because the student has a space you know
- 00:10:59the student sees that word with a space
- 00:11:01before it and a space after it but the
- 00:11:04ancient Latin student doesn't have those
- 00:11:06spaces doesn't know that the word cotus
- 00:11:09begins with s because can't be really
- 00:11:13sure that that s doesn't attach to the
- 00:11:16the previous word so one of the main
- 00:11:20things you need to do is learn loads and
- 00:11:21loads of vocab and therefore they have
- 00:11:24these dictionaries which are not in
- 00:11:26alphabetical order they also have
- 00:11:28dictionaries in alphabetical order but
- 00:11:30it looks as though that's not what
- 00:11:31they're mainly using at the beginning
- 00:11:33they use these classified ones and they
- 00:11:36just basically learn one section at a
- 00:11:40time so you'll have a section on birds
- 00:11:43and you'll learn the names of birds
- 00:11:44you'll have a section on fish you'll
- 00:11:46learn the names of fish you'll have a
- 00:11:47section on four qued animals you'll
- 00:11:49learn those names parts of the human
- 00:11:51body you learn those words
- 00:11:54and until you have learned a lot of
- 00:11:57words you're not going
- 00:11:59near a normal written out text so we can
- 00:12:02give our students like sentences and
- 00:12:06paragraphs and even texts at a
- 00:12:08relatively early stage because of the
- 00:12:10word Division and they can't so what
- 00:12:13they give them in written form is these
- 00:12:17very cute little bilingual stories which
- 00:12:21are divided into very very short lines
- 00:12:25basically one two or three words per
- 00:12:28line and they have a line forline
- 00:12:30equivalent between the Latin and the
- 00:12:33Greek and originally these were stories
- 00:12:36about a child who goes to school and
- 00:12:39learns ancient Greek they were Roman
- 00:12:41stories written for Roman children and
- 00:12:44they are so cute they have the child he
- 00:12:46gets up in the morning and he washes and
- 00:12:49he brushes his teeth and he calms his
- 00:12:52hair he's a very good little child he
- 00:12:55goes to school he's accompanied by his
- 00:12:57personal slave boy because you know
- 00:12:59let's be fair here it's not the it's not
- 00:13:01the people too poor to own a slave who
- 00:13:03are going to school um so he's got his
- 00:13:05personal slave boy and he's accompanied
- 00:13:07by his pedagogue and possibly he has a
- 00:13:09nurse to help him get dressed he goes to
- 00:13:11school he doesn't have to carry his own
- 00:13:13stuff mind you he's got a personal slay
- 00:13:15for for that yes um and then when he
- 00:13:18gets to school um he says hello to the
- 00:13:21teacher there is no set start time to a
- 00:13:24Roman school day you get there when you
- 00:13:26get there and so you walk in and you say
- 00:13:33hello to the teacher you interrupt the
- 00:13:35teacher for that purpose and then you
- 00:13:36say hello to everybody else who's
- 00:13:39already there and then you sit down and
- 00:13:44start working on your first task because
- 00:13:47pretty much all of the education is
- 00:13:49individual there being no set start time
- 00:13:52to the Academic Year either so nowadays
- 00:13:55you know
- 00:13:56everybody um who turns seven in a
- 00:13:59particular year they're going to start
- 00:14:01school on the same day but it's not like
- 00:14:04that in Antiquity you start school when
- 00:14:07your parents think that you have that
- 00:14:09maturity and that means you're probably
- 00:14:11the only child who starts school on the
- 00:14:14day that you start
- 00:14:15school and so you can't really be
- 00:14:18grouped meaningfully with somebody you
- 00:14:20know somebody else who has the same
- 00:14:22background that you
- 00:14:23do and so they just take it from there
- 00:14:26and so you arrive at school you do your
- 00:14:29task and then you when you've done your
- 00:14:31task you go up to the teacher and you go
- 00:14:33over it um and a lot of what we know
- 00:14:36about Roman schools comes from these
- 00:14:38cute little bilingual textbooks
- 00:14:40explaining um the day of a of a not very
- 00:14:43good child in some respects I mean he
- 00:14:45starts out good but there there are
- 00:14:47different version he's not very good at
- 00:14:49all um so that's what the Romans use to
- 00:14:55learn Greek but the
- 00:14:57Greeks they didn't learn Latin in
- 00:15:00primary school they learned Latin later
- 00:15:03um at sort of teenager level so they
- 00:15:07didn't
- 00:15:08really they didn't really want to write
- 00:15:10stories about small children learning
- 00:15:12languages and they write little
- 00:15:15dialogues about grown-ups not learning
- 00:15:18languages but kind of using them so
- 00:15:20there's a story about somebody who goes
- 00:15:24to the bank and borrows money there's a
- 00:15:25story about somebody who goes shopping
- 00:15:27and buys food somebody who goes shopping
- 00:15:29and buys clothes somebody who goes to
- 00:15:31visit a friend who's ill you know things
- 00:15:33that you might actually do very much
- 00:15:36like the dialogues in modern foreign
- 00:15:39language techbooks where you you know
- 00:15:40you go to a cafe in Paris and you buy a
- 00:15:42quason and you pay for it 10 euros and
- 00:15:44this gives you the culture as well as
- 00:15:46giving you the the
- 00:15:49language so these
- 00:15:53are these are readable by a child who or
- 00:15:57by a person who hasn't learned much of
- 00:16:00the foreign language yet because the
- 00:16:02lines are so short and you have this
- 00:16:05bilingual translation so you may not
- 00:16:08know what homo means but you see on the
- 00:16:13same line right across on N or anthropos
- 00:16:16until you say okay that means person or
- 00:16:20man depending on what sense of homo
- 00:16:22we've got
- 00:16:24um so probably what you do with these
- 00:16:27things you don't translate them yes
- 00:16:29because they're already bilingual
- 00:16:32probably what you do is you memorize the
- 00:16:34half in the language that you're
- 00:16:36learning using the half in the language
- 00:16:38you already know to make sure you
- 00:16:39understand what it means and then you go
- 00:16:42and you perform it just the way nowadays
- 00:16:46you know when you've learned your little
- 00:16:47French dialogue then you go perform your
- 00:16:50little French dialogue to show that you
- 00:16:51know
- 00:16:52it and while you're doing this you're
- 00:16:55also learning all of these chunks of
- 00:16:57vocab and So eventually you get to the
- 00:17:01stage where you have enough vocab that
- 00:17:04you can start reading an actual text now
- 00:17:09obviously you're also doing some
- 00:17:11conversation something oral but we don't
- 00:17:14have as good evidence for what that is
- 00:17:16because of course it's only the written
- 00:17:18stuff that really
- 00:17:19survives um but then when you when you
- 00:17:24get to the stage where you can do
- 00:17:26something um that is
- 00:17:29that involves an actual text then you
- 00:17:32get this text which you know it doesn't
- 00:17:35have any word division maybe it doesn't
- 00:17:37have any
- 00:17:38punctuation um it's much harder than our
- 00:17:42text and at this point you're also
- 00:17:45usually reading something that was not
- 00:17:46written for Learners so we write things
- 00:17:51especially for Learners or we adopt them
- 00:17:53especially for Learners and they do that
- 00:17:55in the bilingual stage so those
- 00:17:58bilingual texts are written especially
- 00:17:59for Learners and occasionally they'll
- 00:18:01take a a text that wasn't written for
- 00:18:04Learners and they'll put it in that
- 00:18:05bilingual format and then it's been
- 00:18:08adapted um but when you've when you've
- 00:18:12finished the bilingual stage you're
- 00:18:13getting a real a real text and these
- 00:18:17things are hard
- 00:18:19so you you get a dictionary you look up
- 00:18:23the words in the dictionary you write
- 00:18:25the translation of the words over the
- 00:18:28original the way our students do today
- 00:18:30but unlike students today you've got to
- 00:18:32put the punctuation in yourself which is
- 00:18:34hard you've got to work out where the
- 00:18:36words divide which is hard and then when
- 00:18:40you've prepared your little chunk you go
- 00:18:42up to the teacher and you read it alloud
- 00:18:45with all the you know with all the
- 00:18:46punctuation in the right place and the
- 00:18:48right expression the rest of it and then
- 00:18:50you translate it um and then you get
- 00:18:54another bit to work on is that making
- 00:18:56sense it makes complete and total sense
- 00:18:59I am curious on uh one thing before
- 00:19:04they're getting into these bilingual
- 00:19:06texts of course and before they're even
- 00:19:07maybe getting into the uh the bilingual
- 00:19:10mini stories you said that they're
- 00:19:12memorizing you know these vocab words
- 00:19:15for instance yeah were they using rot
- 00:19:17memory I didn't really mean before I
- 00:19:20suspect simultaneous suspect that it's
- 00:19:23the at the same time okay but it's very
- 00:19:26hard to know because what we have is
- 00:19:29mostly the materials right um but yes
- 00:19:32they use a lot of rot memory in
- 00:19:34Antiquity rot memory is a big thing not
- 00:19:36just for language learning but more
- 00:19:39General um it's how the education system
- 00:19:42works and that's partly because if you
- 00:19:46think about how their society Works
- 00:19:49they're not a super literate Society we
- 00:19:51are we are the most literate society
- 00:19:54that has ever existed so we have
- 00:19:56enormous amounts of information that
- 00:19:59exists in writing and exists only in
- 00:20:01writing an illiterate person has
- 00:20:03terrible trouble getting around and just
- 00:20:06doing basic things in the 21st century
- 00:20:09but Antiquity is not like that indeed
- 00:20:14it's writing that kind of has second
- 00:20:18place and writing isn't very efficient
- 00:20:21it's not just that there's no space
- 00:20:23between The Words which you know it's
- 00:20:25it's a problem that but also they have a
- 00:20:28different book form so we have a book
- 00:20:31form where it's relatively easy to find
- 00:20:34things we have all these different pages
- 00:20:37and the pages all have numbers and at
- 00:20:39the start of every book we have a table
- 00:20:40of contents explaining what kind of
- 00:20:42things you got with each page and you
- 00:20:45can open that book to any page you want
- 00:20:48it's really kind of simple so if you
- 00:20:50look in the table of contents and it
- 00:20:52says I don't know laws about um about
- 00:20:57cows are on page 45 and you want a law
- 00:21:01about cows you open it to page 45 and
- 00:21:03there are your laws about
- 00:21:04cows but in Antiquity for most of
- 00:21:08antiquity that a book consists of a
- 00:21:10Papyrus rooll it's just a a long scroll
- 00:21:15and you can't easily open it to any one
- 00:21:17place and it doesn't have numbered Pages
- 00:21:20it couldn't have numbered Pages because
- 00:21:21it doesn't have
- 00:21:23pages and it doesn't have a table of
- 00:21:26contents at the start and
- 00:21:29it doesn't have the kind of help that we
- 00:21:32have so it doesn't have headings it
- 00:21:34doesn't have
- 00:21:36paragraphs um it's just a block of
- 00:21:39text and that means that if you've got
- 00:21:43something like that and you want to find
- 00:21:44the laws about cows you don't know where
- 00:21:47they are and
- 00:21:50therefore even for people who are
- 00:21:53literate and are functioning in a
- 00:21:55literate way memory is just more useful
- 00:21:58because if you want to know efficiently
- 00:22:01where to find those laws about cows it
- 00:22:03you you need them in your
- 00:22:05head would it would it make sense to
- 00:22:09draw the
- 00:22:11inference that there long-term memory or
- 00:22:15memory for stories was
- 00:22:18incredibly good then yes okay they did a
- 00:22:21lot of memory training and their memory
- 00:22:24was much much better than ours yes all
- 00:22:27right I mean yeah because I mean just in
- 00:22:29my short span on the earth the fact that
- 00:22:32I can't tell you anyone's number that
- 00:22:35I've met after the year
- 00:22:381999 right uh tells you enough is that
- 00:22:42you know we can't memorize seven we
- 00:22:43don't even look at it anymore but uh
- 00:22:46okay so I find that incredibly
- 00:22:49fascinating let me give you just an
- 00:22:51understanding of me uh a little bit and
- 00:22:53and then we'll come back to some of the
- 00:22:54the parts of the questions that I have I
- 00:22:57was born in the US grew up in a family
- 00:23:00that spoke English although my father is
- 00:23:02from Nigeria and he grew up speaking
- 00:23:05English as well but also Yuba and he was
- 00:23:07obviously exposed to a whole lot of
- 00:23:09other languages as well just uh there in
- 00:23:11Nigeria my mother grew up she grew up in
- 00:23:14um on the south side of
- 00:23:15Chicago completely English
- 00:23:18speaking it was her idea while I was
- 00:23:21young that it would be a great idea for
- 00:23:22me to learn Spanish and so I was exposed
- 00:23:24to Spanish probably by the time I was
- 00:23:25five or six right and so Spanish comes
- 00:23:28very easy to me uh I don't have to think
- 00:23:30very hard there's no struggle right even
- 00:23:32when I didn't use it all that much you
- 00:23:34know uh up until teenage
- 00:23:37years I then went on to learn a whole
- 00:23:40bunch of other other languages uh some
- 00:23:42from travel and some from Individual and
- 00:23:44so uh my individual use and those
- 00:23:47languages being Spanish French Italian
- 00:23:48which would make sense obviously English
- 00:23:51I already mentioned um I learned German
- 00:23:54essentially on my own um and then Danish
- 00:23:58and Swedish I both played in I played in
- 00:24:00Denmark first and that was my base and
- 00:24:03then throughout the covid time I was
- 00:24:05basically in Sweden and then I've played
- 00:24:08a chunk of my career in the Balkan where
- 00:24:11I'm at right now I'm actually in Zagreb
- 00:24:13and so I learned Croatian and Serbian
- 00:24:16first because I played in Serbia uh and
- 00:24:19then I played in aeran for about two and
- 00:24:20a half years so I learned Russian and
- 00:24:22that was a conscious decision for me to
- 00:24:23learn Russian rather than uh aani due to
- 00:24:28my Slavic background right with all of
- 00:24:32that came tons of mistakes as you can
- 00:24:34imagine using the traditional method
- 00:24:36over focusing on grammar sometimes not
- 00:24:38knowing at all what I'm doing just kind
- 00:24:40of shoving everything into my head right
- 00:24:42just trying to figure it out and seeing
- 00:24:43what's G to what's going to pop to some
- 00:24:45more now refined methods and ways that I
- 00:24:48see work and uh and I will say work for
- 00:24:54me but that I found because um I have a
- 00:24:58friend who just like you said is
- 00:25:00horrendous with his ear learning like
- 00:25:04that just doesn't you can tell what
- 00:25:05comes out he doesn't have that gift
- 00:25:07Talent what it's just not there it's not
- 00:25:09there and so one of the most interesting
- 00:25:11things was well he's an American
- 00:25:13learning a Slavic language learning
- 00:25:15Croatian where did all of the methods
- 00:25:19where did the success come from if he
- 00:25:20can't just hear it and speak it maybe I
- 00:25:23can I can do that a little naturally
- 00:25:24better um and so obviously immersion is
- 00:25:29one of the greatest and easiest ways no
- 00:25:30one's really going to going to debate
- 00:25:32much of if you're there and you have to
- 00:25:34and you have to use the language and all
- 00:25:36of that versus actually there are some
- 00:25:39people for whom immersion doesn't work
- 00:25:41it's really fascinating there are people
- 00:25:44okay you put them in a 247 linguistic
- 00:25:48situation and they don't pick it up they
- 00:25:50just don't get okay okay what what
- 00:25:53happens do we know what works for them
- 00:25:56instead I don't know I'm I'm I'm passing
- 00:26:00they speak language there's another way
- 00:26:02to teach these people the foreign
- 00:26:03language but I definitely know people
- 00:26:06uhuh for whom it just has not worked I
- 00:26:09see that's I I find that interesting so
- 00:26:11I learned two of the languages without
- 00:26:13having gone to the country even when I
- 00:26:16arrived in Italy for the first time I
- 00:26:18could speak Italian and was able to tell
- 00:26:20people this is my first day in Italian
- 00:26:22in Italian you know it my first day here
- 00:26:25and so I'm a learner I'm a very big
- 00:26:29self-learner tons of books around here I
- 00:26:31like learning that's my that's one of my
- 00:26:34things that I like to do outside of
- 00:26:35sports and um and so one of the I've
- 00:26:40already found this fascinating I can
- 00:26:41already see that I'm going to go watch
- 00:26:43this everything that you just said to
- 00:26:45understand uh ancient Rome and and and
- 00:26:47Greece better one of the reasons I'm
- 00:26:49doing this to is to try to find I know
- 00:26:53like you said things will work
- 00:26:54differently for different people however
- 00:26:57just like if I I wanted to teach you how
- 00:26:59to play soccer right and how to kick um
- 00:27:03someone who doesn't know how to c kick
- 00:27:05could waste a whole lot of your time
- 00:27:06versus me who might just say well this
- 00:27:08is that's not going to work this is
- 00:27:09definitely gonna we can cut out we can
- 00:27:11cut down your time drastically if you
- 00:27:12guys don't have to figure it out and and
- 00:27:15so I found at least some similarities
- 00:27:18what appear to me within language
- 00:27:20learning and that I'm hearing from other
- 00:27:21polyglots and hearing from you know
- 00:27:23people that are in positions like you
- 00:27:24that are truly you know making it their
- 00:27:26life's work to study this stuff and
- 00:27:29um I'm G to assume you're aware of what
- 00:27:32is a buzzword now but Dr Steven crash's
- 00:27:34theory on comprehensible input are you
- 00:27:37familiar with what this is I'm aware of
- 00:27:39it but if you want me to comment on it
- 00:27:41you're gonna have to give me a
- 00:27:42refresher I will I will do my best to to
- 00:27:47to summarize it but it's essentially
- 00:27:50Theory based on SE language acquisition
- 00:27:54that hopes to mimic the way in which we
- 00:27:57learned our mother tongue stating that
- 00:28:01the majority of what we learned was
- 00:28:02through comprehensible input at first
- 00:28:05meaning that we saw something and I said
- 00:28:08this is a headphone you know I didn't
- 00:28:09spell out headphone I didn't have you
- 00:28:11break down I didn't write to you as a
- 00:28:13two-year-old what what it was you can't
- 00:28:15read right but I had to say this
- 00:28:18headphone and then I would maybe do
- 00:28:19something like ah this is a head maybe
- 00:28:21use something else is a phone we put it
- 00:28:22up to and you figured it out right
- 00:28:24through the the fact that you understood
- 00:28:27what I was saying even though you
- 00:28:29probably couldn't repeat it just is what
- 00:28:30happens to Children of course they're
- 00:28:33taking in tons and tons of input
- 00:28:35throughout those first year two years
- 00:28:37three years however long before they
- 00:28:38want to have their first words and then
- 00:28:40you know an assimilation process happens
- 00:28:43that allows them to then speak and speak
- 00:28:45correctly even they're getting constant
- 00:28:47feedback they'll say this is red you'll
- 00:28:49say no it's blue and they'll put the
- 00:28:51words in the wrong order and that's
- 00:28:52essentially the basis behind it it's an
- 00:28:55attempt to mimic uh how we learn
- 00:28:57language is naturally and uh to make it
- 00:29:01all full circle I the guy who couldn't
- 00:29:05hear his name is Tyler and he's not very
- 00:29:07good at at languages in Slavic language
- 00:29:09versus in English it's very very distant
- 00:29:11you know and and so we can't just break
- 00:29:13down the words they don't mean anything
- 00:29:14to him it'd be easier for him to learn
- 00:29:16Swedish or Danish or German or something
- 00:29:18like this and so the comprehensible
- 00:29:20input method helped a whole lot because
- 00:29:22it it took off and while his brain is
- 00:29:24very
- 00:29:25analytical he just can't when you're to
- 00:29:28break down these words you have to learn
- 00:29:29it's a whole it's alien it's literally
- 00:29:31alien you know Slavic text versus an
- 00:29:33English text yeah no I tried to learn
- 00:29:35polish and it didn't work I've learned
- 00:29:37quite a few modern languages well not as
- 00:29:40many as you definitely sure um but but
- 00:29:44yeah the Slavic ones didn't work for me
- 00:29:46and the Semitic ones worked even less
- 00:29:49and that's precisely for the reason that
- 00:29:51you say that okay these these words were
- 00:29:54too foreign for me there was nothing I
- 00:29:56could really hang them on on in my brain
- 00:29:58that I already knew and so they didn't
- 00:30:02stick right uh so I I was curious a what
- 00:30:06you think of that as being let's say
- 00:30:08better I I like you you mentioned those
- 00:30:11people that take four years of French I
- 00:30:13did take four years of Spanish but the
- 00:30:15reason I took it was just for the EAS a
- 00:30:16because I wanted to play football that's
- 00:30:18why I took it right but my friends
- 00:30:20wanted to learn and they don't speak any
- 00:30:22Spanish they speak absolutely zero and
- 00:30:24so my question then becomes why are we
- 00:30:26still teaching in the traditional method
- 00:30:28even though some of them may not come
- 00:30:31out obviously speaking but could we not
- 00:30:33just like in my analogy of the
- 00:30:35footballer the soccer player wants to
- 00:30:36teach you could we not make them give
- 00:30:38them a little bit more of a leg up by
- 00:30:41using this the other this is something
- 00:30:44that gets debated a lot um and I think
- 00:30:48it's it's really complicated because the
- 00:30:50the data are not as clear as I think
- 00:30:52you're presenting them as being okay um
- 00:30:55I Heard a a fascinating lecture from a
- 00:30:58linguist who said you know we all think
- 00:31:01of natural language acquisition that
- 00:31:04children do as being kind of the gold
- 00:31:06standard because they learn so well
- 00:31:10without putting any work in but he says
- 00:31:14that's not really true if you look at a
- 00:31:15small child trying to learn language
- 00:31:18they're working really really hard it's
- 00:31:20most of what they do for about five
- 00:31:23years and at the end of it they sound
- 00:31:25like a five-year-old and so if we manage
- 00:31:28to exactly duplicate that with an adult
- 00:31:32learning French you're going to work
- 00:31:34full-time on it for five years and
- 00:31:35you'll sound like a five-year-old and he
- 00:31:38had a certain point there um that I
- 00:31:41think we we tend to underestimate how
- 00:31:44hard that natural method is and how much
- 00:31:49how much time it
- 00:31:51takes and I think the people who for
- 00:31:54whom immersion doesn't work are often
- 00:31:56people who you know they don't stick it
- 00:31:58out they don't do it fulltime for five
- 00:32:01years because they can't stand it and
- 00:32:04they don't have the time you the five
- 00:32:05year-old does have
- 00:32:07the um there's a very interesting set of
- 00:32:10experiments going on at Oxford
- 00:32:11University at the moment about teaching
- 00:32:13Latin orally and of course Latin is
- 00:32:16normally taught entirely through um
- 00:32:20grammar and
- 00:32:21translation um and it you know there
- 00:32:24isn't normally a speaking component and
- 00:32:26they're experimenting with a speaking
- 00:32:29component which enables one to use some
- 00:32:33of these comprehensible input theories
- 00:32:37um more
- 00:32:38easily and what they seem to be finding
- 00:32:42is that overall it is working better but
- 00:32:46it's not working for everyone and it's
- 00:32:49not always working
- 00:32:51enormously better I think overall it is
- 00:32:54working better but part of the reason
- 00:32:56it's working better is people putting
- 00:32:58more time in and of course any system is
- 00:33:01going to work better if you put more if
- 00:33:04you put more time in and for some
- 00:33:08people you know if you look at how the
- 00:33:11brain is structured there are things
- 00:33:13that are connected to your ears that are
- 00:33:16not connected to your eyes and so if you
- 00:33:20learn a language using both your ears
- 00:33:23and your eyes you've got actually more
- 00:33:25bits of your brain available to help you
- 00:33:27that
- 00:33:28language um of course if you do it only
- 00:33:31with your ears then you maybe don't have
- 00:33:33more bits available than if you did it
- 00:33:35only with your eyes but if you do it
- 00:33:37both ways you've got more bits available
- 00:33:39which gives you a leg up I think it
- 00:33:41can't be a question that if you you're
- 00:33:43engaging more bits of your brain you've
- 00:33:45got to leg
- 00:33:46up but there are people
- 00:33:50who who feel really shy and inhibited
- 00:33:54about speaking in a foreign
- 00:33:56language and and active production is
- 00:34:00really really helpful for language
- 00:34:02learning so if you try to learn it only
- 00:34:06passively so that you you can maybe read
- 00:34:08it you can maybe understand it but you
- 00:34:10never are trying to produce it again
- 00:34:14you're missing out on on things your
- 00:34:17brain can do that are that are
- 00:34:20helpful
- 00:34:22and so when you have students who just
- 00:34:25can't face opening their mouths in a
- 00:34:27foreign
- 00:34:29language the oral method has some
- 00:34:32problems so although basically I'm in
- 00:34:35favor of an oral method because I think
- 00:34:39overall it works better um to kind of
- 00:34:42combine speaking with learning grammar
- 00:34:46and with reading and with writing I
- 00:34:48think the more different things you do
- 00:34:51the better it works I think I have to
- 00:34:54acknowledge that different people work
- 00:34:56differently
- 00:34:58and that therefore in an ideal world
- 00:35:00everybody would take a diagnostic class
- 00:35:02be diagnostic test before they started a
- 00:35:04language class and then would learn by
- 00:35:07the
- 00:35:08method that fits them the best right and
- 00:35:14uh well what's interesting about that in
- 00:35:17the oral method I'm not sure I know that
- 00:35:20I so number one I would I would agree
- 00:35:23with you 100% that
- 00:35:25desire the decision and desire to learn
- 00:35:28the language is above all because they
- 00:35:31will push through like you said the
- 00:35:34immersion you know if they just are just
- 00:35:36going to stick it out no matter what
- 00:35:38however long it takes that usually
- 00:35:40brings some sort of results better than
- 00:35:42a structured course in class and kind of
- 00:35:44offloading the responsibility to the
- 00:35:46school and someone else uh what I what's
- 00:35:49funny now I don't know whether or not
- 00:35:52what I would consider My Method truly
- 00:35:54while it incorporates portions of the
- 00:35:56comprehensible input method I do so many
- 00:35:58other things and I've I've seen and
- 00:36:01talked to other polyglots that I know
- 00:36:03that they do too but one of the most
- 00:36:05important things I've seen number one uh
- 00:36:07people who have issues talking to other
- 00:36:09people talk to themselves I I have full
- 00:36:12conversations with people within my own
- 00:36:14head uh you know on a constant basis
- 00:36:17with a limited vocab which is yes now
- 00:36:20I've done that too when I was learning
- 00:36:23Norwegian um and I had some problems
- 00:36:25with Norwegian because I was living on a
- 00:36:27farm and they spoke this dialect and I
- 00:36:30hadn't yet understood that the problem
- 00:36:32was the norion I was learning was not
- 00:36:33the same norion that they were speaking
- 00:36:35so there wasn't any comprehensible input
- 00:36:37coming in here yeah and so I would go
- 00:36:40for these long walks and think in
- 00:36:42Norwegian and I had to bring a
- 00:36:44dictionary in order to
- 00:36:47think yes you know it seems really silly
- 00:36:50but in the end I did manage to learn a
- 00:36:52reasonable amount of Norwegian I'm not
- 00:36:54sure I still know it but it did it did
- 00:36:57get me
- 00:36:58to a point where I could start producing
- 00:37:00enough Norwegian um I'm not I'm not the
- 00:37:04kind who who is shy about speaking it
- 00:37:06has to be said but it's
- 00:37:08nevertheless I agree with you 100% doing
- 00:37:11it in your head to yourself is is really
- 00:37:14really helpful that of course is not
- 00:37:17something that anybody but the person
- 00:37:19concerned can do um you know if you want
- 00:37:23to learn the language you can do that in
- 00:37:26your head um um I mean I've tried
- 00:37:29learning lots of different languages in
- 00:37:31different ways so I've done I've done
- 00:37:35Latin and Greek sort of the traditional
- 00:37:36way where you um you do the grammar and
- 00:37:40you do the
- 00:37:41translation and then I thought I'm G to
- 00:37:45learn Swiss German as a as a purely
- 00:37:49non-written language and I'm not going
- 00:37:51to look at any written materials at all
- 00:37:53and I'm going to see how that
- 00:37:55goes and
- 00:37:58then I started doing the spoken Latin as
- 00:38:00well to see how that goes um I learned
- 00:38:04Swedish purely by reading I didn't need
- 00:38:07any active competence in Swedish I only
- 00:38:10needed passive and of course once you
- 00:38:12have some Norwegian Swedish is not that
- 00:38:14not that hard um but I just got some
- 00:38:18long books out of the library and bashed
- 00:38:20my way through them so you know I have
- 00:38:22tried different methods but I don't
- 00:38:25think I'm in your category but one of
- 00:38:27the people who finds it easier than most
- 00:38:31sure you found it easier even from the
- 00:38:33get-go yes yes well not when I was in
- 00:38:36elementary school but by the time I was
- 00:38:39in junior high school I was it was just
- 00:38:42easier for me to learn languages sure
- 00:38:44than most people so I think I think
- 00:38:47there is there is a certain question of
- 00:38:50I don't know whether one wants to call
- 00:38:52it talent but there is sure there are
- 00:38:54some people who find it easier and it's
- 00:38:57cumulative because you know learning one
- 00:39:01language is not totally different from
- 00:39:03learning another language so the more
- 00:39:04you learn the better you get at it and
- 00:39:08that's particularly true if you start
- 00:39:09learning languages that are related to
- 00:39:11each other because you kind of know what
- 00:39:13kind of things they're going to do but
- 00:39:15even with unrelated languages once
- 00:39:17you've learn one foreign language you
- 00:39:19you're aware where English is really
- 00:39:22idiosyncratic and so you're not you're
- 00:39:25not expecting languages to to all be
- 00:39:28like English in a way that the first
- 00:39:30time around you
- 00:39:32are um so you know people who are good
- 00:39:37at it and like doing it get better and
- 00:39:39better and better at
- 00:39:41it and we can use methods that I
- 00:39:44wouldn't really recommend for people who
- 00:39:46are just starting out so you know my
- 00:39:48experiment with Swiss German it was fun
- 00:39:52but it was a linguist kind of fun it
- 00:39:55wasn't something that I would that I
- 00:39:56would commend right for someone who just
- 00:39:59who needs to learn Swiss German because
- 00:40:01they're moving to Switzerland or etc etc
- 00:40:03yeah but also who who doesn't have a lot
- 00:40:05of experience in learning foreign
- 00:40:07languages it was a it was the kind of
- 00:40:08game you play when you've done it
- 00:40:11multiple times and I think when if we
- 00:40:15come back to Latin and Greek learning
- 00:40:17Greek was almost always the first
- 00:40:19foreign language for a Roman but Latin
- 00:40:22was not necessarily the first foreign
- 00:40:25language going the other way because
- 00:40:27because a lot of people who were Greek
- 00:40:30speakers were not native Greek speakers
- 00:40:33um so they might have been for
- 00:40:35example actually from a bilingual Greek
- 00:40:38Egyptian family or even from an Egyptian
- 00:40:40family and then they learned Greek in
- 00:40:42school and then they decided they wanted
- 00:40:44to go into Roman law and now they're
- 00:40:46learning Latin I see um they've already
- 00:40:49got some of these skills that you learn
- 00:40:52from learning a foreign language right
- 00:40:55uh one of the things that I was going to
- 00:40:57add to the to the method and things just
- 00:40:59by thinking and another one thing that I
- 00:41:01found and I think it's in line a little
- 00:41:04bit with what they were trying to do in
- 00:41:06Antiquity is seeking to understand I
- 00:41:10found that when you have a story and
- 00:41:12when you have a concept like they've
- 00:41:13broken things into Birds fish animals
- 00:41:15and and stuff like this or however they
- 00:41:17would do it human body whatever um by
- 00:41:20seeking to understand a story by seeking
- 00:41:22to understand a concept or something
- 00:41:24greater something that's greater than
- 00:41:26the words that you're looking
- 00:41:29at it just kind of something else
- 00:41:32happens along you're no longer putting
- 00:41:35pegs on this white wall without any sort
- 00:41:37of connection you've got this concept to
- 00:41:39it and context as we know definitely is
- 00:41:42very helpful when trying to understand
- 00:41:44you may not be able to
- 00:41:46reproduce What You've just read or or
- 00:41:49learned or heard or however it is but at
- 00:41:52the very least you know you know
- 00:41:54something you're G you understand
- 00:41:57something something and that's a huge
- 00:41:58point and something that I think gets
- 00:42:00missed at least from what I've seen for
- 00:42:01the people who are asking I'm trying to
- 00:42:03learn this language I'm trying this and
- 00:42:04I kind of analyze a little bit what
- 00:42:05they're what they're doing and there's
- 00:42:07all these all these things all over the
- 00:42:09place they've got dualingo teaching them
- 00:42:11some words about this stuff kind of over
- 00:42:12here and over here they're doing this
- 00:42:13and there's no story there's no nothing
- 00:42:15that they kind of Peg themselves for a
- 00:42:17win because what I found for sure for
- 00:42:20some of the people that it's hard for
- 00:42:21it's so important to get that early win
- 00:42:23within language to keep you going most
- 00:42:25people take the thing
- 00:42:27this this is too hard I don't get it
- 00:42:29this whatever or they maybe they they
- 00:42:31have great persistence they stick with
- 00:42:32it for six months and it's just not no
- 00:42:35wins and no wins leads to you quitting
- 00:42:38that's how it works we don't keep doing
- 00:42:39things that we're bad at or we're not
- 00:42:41succeeding at yeah that's really true
- 00:42:45and so I I found that seeking to
- 00:42:46understand was was was huge as well as
- 00:42:48well as you know at least utilizing the
- 00:42:49comprehensible method there's a definite
- 00:42:52definite difference between taking
- 00:42:54something and while I float for a lot of
- 00:42:57people just at that beginner stage
- 00:42:58because most people don't get past the
- 00:43:01beginner to say intermediate there's a
- 00:43:03big difference between deciding that you
- 00:43:05want to go from I'm I can communicate
- 00:43:07walking into the store to I want to read
- 00:43:11this ancient book in that language
- 00:43:14there's a big switch there's a lot of
- 00:43:16writing and thinking and that that
- 00:43:18energy input is long and you're not
- 00:43:20going to see any light at the end of the
- 00:43:22tunnel for a while and then it will you
- 00:43:24know event you just go whoa you know I
- 00:43:27understand everything I don't have to
- 00:43:28think about this and it's great and so
- 00:43:30that there's a big switch there uh let
- 00:43:33me just check one of my so you when
- 00:43:36you're thinking of uh Latin and and
- 00:43:40Greek the way that you go about them now
- 00:43:43do you read text or what I guess I
- 00:43:45should ask you because you're so I
- 00:43:46didn't know you were so talented as well
- 00:43:49what languages do you speak or do you
- 00:43:51feel comfortable in or that you've
- 00:43:53studied even the ones that you've
- 00:43:54forgotten and what do you consider your
- 00:43:57strongest and what are you using
- 00:43:59constantly right um my strongest might
- 00:44:03actually be French um which is the first
- 00:44:05one that I learned I was in Paris for
- 00:44:09two months last year teaching in French
- 00:44:12at the
- 00:44:13sorbon
- 00:44:14and I didn't really have a problem with
- 00:44:17the French there it takes me a little
- 00:44:18longer than teaching an English but but
- 00:44:21basically um I would say French is proba
- 00:44:24it's probably stronger either than Greek
- 00:44:26or Latin me which is a bit weird given I
- 00:44:29put you know I put my whole career in on
- 00:44:31Latin and Greek but French is just a lot
- 00:44:33easier um and then probably German and
- 00:44:38Latin would pretty much tie for second
- 00:44:42and I would say when it comes when it
- 00:44:45comes
- 00:44:46to reading and writing probably better
- 00:44:49in Latin and when it comes to speaking
- 00:44:51and probably better in German um I have
- 00:44:54done some spoken Latin but it's still
- 00:44:56not that easy for me
- 00:44:59um
- 00:45:01and
- 00:45:03then
- 00:45:04Greek definitely um comes after Latin
- 00:45:08but probably before any other modern
- 00:45:10languages and then we're into things
- 00:45:13that I have at one time known better
- 00:45:15than I now do so I spent some time in
- 00:45:18Leiden and I learned Dutch but the Dutch
- 00:45:22is not currently all that functional um
- 00:45:26as spent some time in Switzerland I
- 00:45:28learned Swiss German but it's not
- 00:45:29currently all that functional spent some
- 00:45:31time in Wales and I learned Welsh I
- 00:45:32spent some time in Norway and I learned
- 00:45:34Norwegian I spent some time in Italy and
- 00:45:36I've learned Italian at least three
- 00:45:38times but it doesn't stick partly
- 00:45:40because it gets confused with French um
- 00:45:43yeah I did a bit of modern Greek I did
- 00:45:47some Hebrew I did two years of Hebrew I
- 00:45:49should have ended up with more Hebrew
- 00:45:50than I did but let's face it the Hebrew
- 00:45:52never really clicked I did eight weeks
- 00:45:55of Arabic and that didn't click either
- 00:45:58um I did a little tiny bit of Polish and
- 00:46:02that didn't work and then there's a
- 00:46:03bunch of ancient languages that I've
- 00:46:05kind of looked at so liian and hittite
- 00:46:10and um askan and umbre and and you know
- 00:46:13these are languages that nobody nobody
- 00:46:15knows really all that well um but but
- 00:46:20I've had a look at them but then I've
- 00:46:21forgotten them wow okay that is very
- 00:46:26very FAS so you had massive exposure to
- 00:46:29different languages uh and even courses
- 00:46:32and stuff like that uh I would I would
- 00:46:35be curious then even given what we've
- 00:46:38already said about different methods and
- 00:46:40things I'm curious myself how would you
- 00:46:43go about it for
- 00:46:44someone who would want to learn I I'll
- 00:46:48give you two since this is a unique
- 00:46:51opportunity how would you go about it if
- 00:46:54you could give a simple breakdown of the
- 00:46:56first attempts for someone to try and
- 00:46:58learn Latin uh to speak in Latin and
- 00:47:02obviously to read or to be able to read
- 00:47:03if their goal if their grand goal is to
- 00:47:06be able to read some of these ancient
- 00:47:08texts and then how would you go about it
- 00:47:10if you just had to I don't think I heard
- 00:47:13Spanish on your that's right Spanish is
- 00:47:15one I haven't done okay so yeah if you
- 00:47:17were going to learn Spanish that would
- 00:47:19be another one that I would do so if you
- 00:47:20could separate those two uh into how you
- 00:47:23would approach them I'd love to hear
- 00:47:24okay so Spanish is me and Latin is
- 00:47:27somebody else
- 00:47:28yes
- 00:47:29uh yes yes yes exactly okay so for
- 00:47:33somebody else trying to learn
- 00:47:35Latin I would I'd really want to know
- 00:47:39who they are and what they find hard and
- 00:47:42easy and I'd really want to spend some
- 00:47:44time sitting down with this person
- 00:47:45trying to understand what would work for
- 00:47:47them because I really think people are
- 00:47:49different um but regardless of who they
- 00:47:52are I would recommend that they find a
- 00:47:54Latin teacher I think while learning
- 00:47:56learning um by yourself is possible it
- 00:47:59just is harder for most people than with
- 00:48:02a
- 00:48:03teacher and ideally I would recommend a
- 00:48:07Latin teacher who speaks it as well as
- 00:48:10being able to read and write it and I
- 00:48:12would recommend doing the the kind of
- 00:48:15mixed approach and I would
- 00:48:19recommend starting off with doing some
- 00:48:23reading so always start with with a
- 00:48:29text and with grammar sorry I interrupt
- 00:48:33that famous one I I've never really I've
- 00:48:36never attempted to learn Latin myself
- 00:48:37but there's that famous one with
- 00:48:39the Rome is this the river is I'm not
- 00:48:44sure of its name it's popular know I
- 00:48:47don't actually know what you're talking
- 00:48:48very very popular very but I'm sorry
- 00:48:53yeah go ahead I'll find it um so there
- 00:48:57are lots of different textbooks and
- 00:48:59which textbook you use is going to be
- 00:49:01intimately connected with which teacher
- 00:49:02you use because most teachers are only
- 00:49:04prepared to teach out of one or at most
- 00:49:05two different textbooks so i' tell them
- 00:49:08to find a teacher that they get on with
- 00:49:10that they feel inspired by that they
- 00:49:12feel they click with and find a textbook
- 00:49:17that works for that teacher um my sense
- 00:49:21is that with most different textbooks
- 00:49:24you can actually learn it makes it makes
- 00:49:25a lot less difference which textbook you
- 00:49:27use than people think but that you
- 00:49:30should you should have some grammar from
- 00:49:33day one because Latin is hard without
- 00:49:35grammar you should have some reading
- 00:49:38from day one because any language is
- 00:49:40hard if it's just disembodied bits and
- 00:49:43you should have some speaking from day
- 00:49:46one because that engages different bits
- 00:49:49of your brain um and you should work
- 00:49:52with a with a teacher now for me if I
- 00:49:54was going to learn Spanish um it would
- 00:49:57partly depend on why I was learning
- 00:50:00Spanish but assuming that I want to
- 00:50:02learn like all four bits of it so I can
- 00:50:05I can read it and write it and speak it
- 00:50:08and hear it I would go and I would look
- 00:50:11for a Spanish speaker to to help me
- 00:50:14because I really think like I said
- 00:50:16learning languages works better if you
- 00:50:18have doesn't have to be like a
- 00:50:20professional teacher but somebody I'd
- 00:50:22want somebody whose Spanish was good um
- 00:50:25preferably native
- 00:50:27um and I would want a textbook because I
- 00:50:32would want some grammar um
- 00:50:36grammar doesn't doesn't bother me at all
- 00:50:39I've done grammar of lots of languages
- 00:50:40and I think it's
- 00:50:42easier to be told how the irregular
- 00:50:45verbs conjugate than to have to work it
- 00:50:47out for yourself how the irregular verbs
- 00:50:49conjugate so I'd want I'd want that kind
- 00:50:52of information and I'd want a text um
- 00:50:56and one reason I have not learned
- 00:50:57Spanish is that when I was a graduate
- 00:51:00student I learned Italian like I said
- 00:51:02for two years solid I took Italian
- 00:51:04classes it didn't do me much good I had
- 00:51:06to read some Italian So eventually I go
- 00:51:08off to the library and say I'm just
- 00:51:09going to bash through this Italian
- 00:51:11article and I sit there for two days
- 00:51:13with this 80-page article and a big
- 00:51:15Italian dictionary and it goes it works
- 00:51:17I understand what's in this article but
- 00:51:20every time I look up a word in the
- 00:51:21dictionary it's never exactly the same
- 00:51:23in the dictionary as it is in the text
- 00:51:25and I don't really understand why until
- 00:51:27I get to the very end and it says Madrid
- 00:51:31and I realized that that article was not
- 00:51:33in Italian that article was in Spanish
- 00:51:37wow but I got through it anyway and I
- 00:51:40had understood what it said even though
- 00:51:42I was using an Italian dictionary
- 00:51:43instead of a Spanish dictionary because
- 00:51:46when it's something in your subject
- 00:51:48matter and you know other romance
- 00:51:51languages you can you can do it so
- 00:51:53that's why I never bothered to learn
- 00:51:55Spanish um but assuming that I really do
- 00:51:58want to learn Spanish I would then you
- 00:52:00know I'd want a text um and I'd want a
- 00:52:04grammar and I'd want a a human being and
- 00:52:08what I'd want from that human being
- 00:52:09wouldn't be Direction so I would go
- 00:52:12through the grammar and I would read the
- 00:52:16text but then I'd want to meet that
- 00:52:19human being for at least an hour a week
- 00:52:21and speak to them in Spanish about what
- 00:52:25I was doing so I could ask questions
- 00:52:27about the stuff I didn't understand and
- 00:52:29I'd want to do that in
- 00:52:32Spanish I see uh I 100% agree it's funny
- 00:52:36too just to to go to your your part on
- 00:52:41grammar
- 00:52:42it's utilizing it's like just enough
- 00:52:45there needs to be just enough I when
- 00:52:48learning German got way too caught up on
- 00:52:51the grammar because I was like what is
- 00:52:53this the words got to go here this verb
- 00:52:55two verbs
- 00:52:57this and what there what is going on I
- 00:53:00got so so caught up in it that learning
- 00:53:02the language stopped being the thing
- 00:53:03that I was actually doing without me
- 00:53:05knowing this an obsession with the rules
- 00:53:07is what end up ended up happening and
- 00:53:09that's what happens when you go grammar
- 00:53:11extreme what was nice was when I finally
- 00:53:14switched and realized what was happening
- 00:53:16and started to get it the fact that I I
- 00:53:19know the the the triggers for the the
- 00:53:22dative case you know and the
- 00:53:24prepositions and I know all that because
- 00:53:25I had this weird session on German
- 00:53:27grammar for for a while and it it
- 00:53:30actually ended up helping me when I
- 00:53:31started to formulate sentences and the I
- 00:53:34know what this is and I don't feel you
- 00:53:36know I'm very confident about this I
- 00:53:37know the rule right and so there has to
- 00:53:40be it is better you're right if I can if
- 00:53:43you can tell me how to do the irregular
- 00:53:45verbs or even the standard conjugation
- 00:53:49yeah it's nice it's nice to know than
- 00:53:51figuring it all out yourself but as a
- 00:53:53list form right it's kind of not to not
- 00:53:55don't get stuck on on this because
- 00:53:57that's not the language isn't the
- 00:53:58grammar the language grammar or the
- 00:54:00rules and so I like what you've done
- 00:54:03with your tutor and and specifically
- 00:54:07especially because what ends up
- 00:54:08happening what I've seen at least is
- 00:54:10that the tutors will come in with their
- 00:54:13prepackaged no understanding of you what
- 00:54:15you are what your goals are what this
- 00:54:17ours and they they'll give this token
- 00:54:19word to yes we tailor it to you but
- 00:54:21really they'll just come in with their
- 00:54:22package and they'll do this and what
- 00:54:24you've done is create a course in which
- 00:54:27you want to talk to them about what you
- 00:54:28want to talk about the subjects that you
- 00:54:30are interested in that you have maybe
- 00:54:32even done some work outside of obviously
- 00:54:34the class to do so which is tough to get
- 00:54:37in a um in a school right we can't all
- 00:54:39tailor till all 20 of you but it's not
- 00:54:42hard to find a speaker and you know I
- 00:54:46don't need a teacher I need a speaker or
- 00:54:49somebody who has the knowledge if it's a
- 00:54:51if it's a non-spoken language and when I
- 00:54:53was a student I used to just trade with
- 00:54:55my friends so like I started learning
- 00:54:58Welsh because I had a friend who was a
- 00:55:00native speaker of Welsh she wanted to
- 00:55:02learn ancient Greek and I wanted to
- 00:55:06learn Welsh so we swapped and we met up
- 00:55:09every two or three days and we spend an
- 00:55:11hour where I'd help her with Greek and
- 00:55:14an hour where she'd help me with Welsh
- 00:55:16and it was just fun it was a nice fun
- 00:55:19way to interact with one's
- 00:55:20friends and and there wasn't there
- 00:55:23wasn't any grind to it at all yeah yeah
- 00:55:27so I and you know I like being in charge
- 00:55:29of my own language learning yeah yeah
- 00:55:32which is something that I I've I've
- 00:55:33wanted to try in preach uh and I it's
- 00:55:36kind of and I know this is two people
- 00:55:38talking who enjoy language learning and
- 00:55:40enjoy the process but uh we haven't um
- 00:55:44delegated our responsibility to learn
- 00:55:46the language to someone else or to an
- 00:55:48institution you've very much taken
- 00:55:49control over it and and made it work for
- 00:55:52you so um I won't take any more time I
- 00:55:56have other questions but I will what I
- 00:55:58will what I will do is I'll find that
- 00:56:00Latin book because I think it would be
- 00:56:01interesting I'd love to hear your your
- 00:56:03okay thoughts on it it's very popular
- 00:56:06and it kind of follows the
- 00:56:07comprehensible input method let's say
- 00:56:10because it's very it's very basic um and
- 00:56:12it gets people from absolutely no Latin
- 00:56:15to understanding you know a little bit
- 00:56:18and uh I definitely I'm going to have
- 00:56:20some other questions I think I'll have
- 00:56:22questions on
- 00:56:23even what diagnostic questions you would
- 00:56:26want to find out if you could run a
- 00:56:28diagnosis on everybody before they you
- 00:56:32know learned a language what would you
- 00:56:35want to ask them so um in any case we
- 00:56:38will edit this to make it look
- 00:56:40tremendous uh and and break things down
- 00:56:43and probably put things in little short
- 00:56:45stuff but this has been utterly
- 00:56:47fascinating awesome thanks again see you
- 00:56:50later bye bye
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