What is the main theme of 'Blue Ruin'?

The novel explores themes of class, privilege, and power dynamics within the art world.

Who are the main characters in 'Blue Ruin'?

The main characters are Jay, Rob, and Alice, all navigating their complex relationships and artistic paths.

What time periods does 'Blue Ruin' cover?

The novel spans the early stages of the pandemic and reflects back on the art scene of the 1990s in London.

What kind of art practices are explored in the novel?

The book contrasts traditional commercial art practices with conceptual and critical art practices.

How does the pandemic affect the characters in 'Blue Ruin'?

The pandemic creates a backdrop of anxiety and isolation, impacting the characters' interactions and reflections on their lives.

A Damning Appraisal of Art World Elitism

00:44:11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSAll0Gkur8

Summary

TLDRThe podcast episode features author Har K discussing his novel 'Blue Ruin', set against the backdrop of the pandemic. The narrative delves into class and privilege dynamics in the art world, following the protagonist Jay as he reconnects with former friends Rob and Alice. It contrasts different artistic practices, examines capitalism's influence on art, and highlights the intersection of race and class issues. Through a dual timeline, the story juxtaposes the present challenges of the pandemic with the more vibrant yet complex art scene of 1990s London. The podcast provides insights into the personal experiences of the characters and the broader societal implications of art and privilege.

Takeaways

🎨 'Blue Ruin' explores the intersection of class and art.
🌍 Set during the pandemic, it captures societal fractures.
👥 The characters grapple with their artistic identities.
🖌️ Jay's return disrupts the lives of former friends Rob and Alice.
💬 The novel critiques how capitalism shapes value in art.
🔄 Two timelines highlight the evolution of the art scene.
📖 Har K reflects on personal experiences in the art world.
📉 The story reveals issues of privilege and access within art.
⚖️ Representation and class barriers are significant themes.
🔍 The discussion invites reflection on the future of art and society.

Timeline

00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The podcast host, Kate Brown, introduces the guest, journalist and author Har K, discussing his novel 'Blue Ruin'. The book explores wealth and privilege in the art world during the early pandemic, examining how these dynamics affect artistic value and creativity, intertwined with reflections on capitalism and identity.
00:05:00 - 00:10:00
The narrative contrasts the present day during the pandemic with the vibrant 1990s London art scene, following the journey of Jay, a British artist who attempts to leave the art world but is drawn back to it. The podcast emphasizes the power struggles among artists and art professionals.
00:10:00 - 00:15:00
The dynamics between Jay and Rob, two artists with differing practices, are explored, highlighting their struggles within the art market. The author notes the tension between the integrity of art-making and commercial pressures that can distort artistic intentions.
00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Har K shares his personal experiences in the London art scene of the 90s and the friends he knew, who either embraced the traditional gallery system or rejected it, emphasizing the cultural tensions prevalent at the time.
00:20:00 - 00:25:00
The discussion shifts to class dynamics in the art world, illustrating how Rob and Jay's differing backgrounds influence their art practices and relationships. Alice, a pivotal character, represents the intersection of intellectual aspirations and class barriers in the art scene.
00:25:00 - 00:30:00
The challenges of maintaining class accessibility within the art world are highlighted, pointing out that rising costs of art education in the UK and US restrict access to aspiring artists from diverse backgrounds, ultimately harming the ecosystem of creativity.
00:30:00 - 00:35:00
The podcast delves into the intersection of race and class during the pandemic, showcasing how societal upheavals outside the insulated art bubble impact characters like Nicole. The existing class stratifications are made more visible in the context of social unrest and personal crises.
00:35:00 - 00:44:11
Lastly, K reflects on the notion of dropping out in art amidst algorithmic pressures of social media, pondering whether true artistic refusal is still possible in a world driven by visibility metrics. The essence of art remains crucial, emphasizing a return to introspective and genuine creation.

Mind Map

Video Q&A

What is the main theme of 'Blue Ruin'?
The novel explores themes of class, privilege, and power dynamics within the art world.
Who are the main characters in 'Blue Ruin'?
The main characters are Jay, Rob, and Alice, all navigating their complex relationships and artistic paths.
What time periods does 'Blue Ruin' cover?
The novel spans the early stages of the pandemic and reflects back on the art scene of the 1990s in London.
What kind of art practices are explored in the novel?
The book contrasts traditional commercial art practices with conceptual and critical art practices.
How does the pandemic affect the characters in 'Blue Ruin'?
The pandemic creates a backdrop of anxiety and isolation, impacting the characters' interactions and reflections on their lives.

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Subtitles

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00:00:01
that filters who gets to be an artist
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and I think that kind of class
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restriction the fact that it's not open
00:00:08
to Outsiders in the way that it was in
00:00:11
Britain and in the US and elsewhere
00:00:14
actually damages the scene
00:00:18
[Music]
00:00:20
irreparably I'm Kate Brown and this is
00:00:22
the art angle a podcast from artet news
00:00:31
few creative Works ever managed to get
00:00:33
the weird pathologies and unique
00:00:34
characters of the art World quite right
00:00:37
but journalist and author har K's newest
00:00:39
novel Blue Ruin is definitely one of
00:00:41
those
00:00:42
Works set in the early stages of the
00:00:44
pandemic K's novel looks at how wealth
00:00:47
and privilege function and fester in the
00:00:49
art world it's an astonishing and
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incisive exploration of the power
00:00:53
dynamics in value creation and art by an
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author who has been keenly observing the
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art world's odd rituals for decades
00:01:01
Blue Ruin moves between lockdown and
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Upstate New York where some art
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professionals are hiding out on a very
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nice property it then moves back in time
00:01:09
to the optimistic art scene of the 1990s
00:01:12
in
00:01:13
London between these places we follow
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Jay a British Artist who does a grand
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gesture of quitting art in his 20s only
00:01:20
to find himself rammed back into the art
00:01:22
world and the people who haunted it all
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of which he had tried to leave
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behind originally from Britain and based
00:01:29
in New York kunu is the author of seven
00:01:31
novels including white tears and red
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pill Blue Ruin is the third of this
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Trilogy he's also a regular contributor
00:01:38
to the New York Review of Books and the
00:01:39
New York Times and writes a column for
00:01:42
Harpers ker also teaches in the creative
00:01:44
writing program at New York University
00:01:46
and is the host of the podcast into the
00:01:49
Zone hi har thank you so much for
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joining me on the art angle today and
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how are you doing and where am I finding
00:01:55
you I'm at home in Brooklyn and doing
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pretty well today thank thank you
00:02:00
fantastic well I'm so very honored to
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have you on the show today to talk about
00:02:03
your book Blue Ruin which was published
00:02:05
in miday by knop and which we will have
00:02:08
Linked In the show notes I'm excited to
00:02:10
talk about the topics and themes that
00:02:11
arise from this book which in my opinion
00:02:13
is a very sharp and poignant novel that
00:02:16
examines how class and privilege are
00:02:18
cemented in the realm of the art World
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in specific and the systems of value
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that are created by artists and their
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artworks but also their networks patrons
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dealers and curators I really have to
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say it took my breath away it managed to
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explore so many latent issues around
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capitalism and identity in art and the
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cost of success so I really appreciated
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this book not to mention also its
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examination of the covid pandemic so we
00:02:43
have a lot to get into today so thank
00:02:44
you for being here well thanks for
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inviting me maybe it's the best place to
00:02:48
start is at the beginning like the book
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opens with this very Unforgettable scene
00:02:52
where Jay the main character is a app
00:02:55
delivery guy and he's bringing his
00:02:57
delivery to the door of this beautiful
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property and up state New York and he's
00:03:00
masked and his mask is falling off and
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he recognizes someone at the door and
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the woman is Alice who's another main
00:03:09
character of the book and they used to
00:03:10
have an intense relationship and then
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Jay passes out so this is like a very
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Vivid opening scene that I won't soon
00:03:17
forget what in your words happens after
00:03:19
that what's the kind of loose plot of
00:03:21
this novel and the main sort of themes
00:03:23
that you wanted to explore with it
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there's kind of two timelines in the
00:03:26
novel there's the present day of the
00:03:27
novel which is during the p pic and this
00:03:30
group of artor people are holed up in
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this beautiful place Upstate trying to
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write out the worst of the pandemic
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there's a well-known painter called Rob
00:03:43
and Alice it turns out is his wife and
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these two characters they're British
00:03:47
when they were young people in London
00:03:50
Jay was a friend of theirs you know Jay
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was dating Alice Rob was his best friend
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it started going very wrong between Jay
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and Alice and then Alice and Rob just
00:04:00
left they ghosted him and he hasn't seen
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either of them for years and they
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haven't heard news from him for years
00:04:06
either I mean he was an artist as well
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but a very different kind of artist and
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so his arrival back in their life shakes
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everything up the other people staying
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on the property are Rob's gallerist
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Marshall to whom Rob owes a lot of work
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Marshall has advanced him a bunch of
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money against paintings that haven't
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been done yet and Rob does not seem to
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be making the paintings and then there
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is Marshall's much younger Artist
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girlfriend whose own creative Ambitions
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everybody else seems to ignore
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completely so there're these two couples
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in quite a kind of fragile state and
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into this world this is
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disruptive sort of ghost from the past
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arve so that's the front story and then
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there is the story of what happened back
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there in the '90s when they were kind of
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young and ambitious in the East London
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art scene you know you managed to
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capture with a very strong sense of
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accuracy some of the strange relational
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dynamics that happen between all these
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characters that you mentioned and they
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represent all kinds of problems in the
00:05:08
art World in particular though let's to
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stay on Jay and Rob they're both artists
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although Jay's sort of arguably formally
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an artist but they're very different as
00:05:17
you mentioned and I feel like one of the
00:05:19
main lines of incor into the novel is
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the difference between art practices
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like one artist has a very immaterial
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conceptual art practice and Rob has this
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very traditional Commercial Art practice
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practice and yet they're both struggling
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a lot with these forms of existence what
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interested you about that ju to position
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in particular well I've watched so many
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friends of mine struggle with the
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question of the market and the way that
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selling into the market can deform your
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art practice and perhaps take you away
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from something that you think is the
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right thing to do or the thing you would
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rather do I mean these two guys in my
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novel they start off as painters and
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they start off with quite an
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old-fashioned and kind of Macho notion
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of what it is to be a painter you know
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they want to sling color around and get
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drunk and be kind of roystering I don't
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know New York School artists of the 50s
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you know like a lot of art school kids
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they're kind of feeling their way into
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the culture of what they're doing and
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Rob has this really kind of basic love
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of painting he loves the craft of it you
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know I say he loves the sort of smell of
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the thinners he loves the texture you
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know he would paint anything whereas Jay
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is much more engaged as say in
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conceptualism and in critical questions
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around what it means to make art and
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what it means to sell art and so he
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falls away from painting and starts this
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much more conceptual immaterial kind of
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practice before kind of gradually edging
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himself further and further out away
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from the mainstream art World until he
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kind of disappears off the scene he kind
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of becomes one of these artists who
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refuses all the terms and conditions of
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the art world so in a way just their
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choices are implicit critical of the
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other one so there's this kind of freny
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dynamic between them in that they
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clearly have a deep kind of friendship
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in their 20s but the break that Jay
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makes away from painting Rob can't stand
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and then that's even before all the
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other things come in with Alice I mean
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of the three of them Alice is by far the
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most intellectual she's somebody who
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wants to be a curator or a Critic she's
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the one who reads the theory books and
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in their late ' 90s early o well she's
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talking about relational Aesthetics and
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trying to frame things for the other two
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I mean Rob doesn't care about that Rob
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just wants to paint stuff and Jay takes
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on Alice's ideas but in a way can't live
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in a kind of happy way with her and
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their relationship becomes more and more
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toxic all of the characters pay like a
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strong price for their roles that they
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play in the art world and you know it's
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interesting you bring up Alice as the
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most intellectual because both of the
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female characters in this book are like
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really backgrounded like they're
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interest in art and then there's just
00:08:00
all this Macho energy between Marshall
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the art dealer who's like stomping
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around on the property um so a lot of
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like problems that are still exist in
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the art world are really drawn into this
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book which I appreciate I want to ask
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you you are a journalist and an author
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as I mentioned earlier what is your
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experience with the art World in
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particular you know because as you say
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this book takes place in two different
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spaces of time and one of them as you
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mentioned is back in the 90s in London
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which I understand is a time in which
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you lived through the art scene I had a
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very traditional sort of Education in
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literature but ended up sort of drifting
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into philosophy and then when I realized
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I didn't want to be a philosopher in any
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kind of academic context I ended up in
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London freelance writing and I kind of
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fell amongst a lot of sort of postart
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school people some of whom were trying
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to make it as Gallery artists and others
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were really in a kind of full rejection
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of that whole system I mean a number of
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people that I knew at that time became
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involved in the net art scene and kind
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of drifted in towards a sort of zone
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between art and activism so these
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questions were very alive in my friends
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lives and I became I suppose a sort of
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spear carrier a kind of background
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figure in the art scene of that time you
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know I was kind of one of the people
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trying to get the free beers at the
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gallery openings and then as I say the
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kind of training I had was very much a
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sort of critical training nothing in my
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background had sort of prepared me to
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try and make work of any kind and what I
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wanted to do was write I wanted to be an
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artist in that kind of vein and
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so it was a really important part of my
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kind of education to be with my art
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friends and understand the ways in which
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they thought about their creativity and
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in the way they've been trained by
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Studio Art practice to kind of be able
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to draw out ideas and develop ideas and
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Trust themselves as the source of their
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own creative possibility and so it was a
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very important part of my life and I
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have all the Romantic feelings and
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experiences that we all do about
00:10:07
wherever we spent our 20s and had all
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those kind of early experiences I ended
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up dating a sculptor for quite a long
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time and she was kind of climbing the
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ladder of the gallery system so I was a
00:10:19
plus one at various dinners and got to
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hang around on the stand at art fairs
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and listen to a young gallerist in to
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her clients and just by osmosis really I
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had a lot of access to how everybody
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around me was thinking about what
00:10:36
success was what value was how you kind
00:10:41
of signed your authenticity as an artist
00:10:43
The Incredible dance of artists and
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collectors is so fascinating to me and
00:10:49
the way that money drives everything but
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nobody can talk about money in a
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particular way as soon as it starts to
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feel like shopping everybody is just
00:10:59
repulsed and has to pretend they're only
00:11:01
in it for these very pure aesthetic
00:11:04
reasons and yet at the same time I'm
00:11:06
sitting there at dinner with one person
00:11:08
who I know is living in a squat and can
00:11:10
barely feed themselves and another
00:11:12
person who started a conversation about
00:11:14
whether it's possible to live in Monaco
00:11:15
without a
00:11:18
yacht yeah I've been at some of those uh
00:11:21
dinner tables and it's an app
00:11:22
description I think also the interest in
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keeping money out of the room is a way
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to keep the symbolic value of art really
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high we pretend it's not just another
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luxury commodity it can kind of soar to
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millions of dollars in the ideal
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scenario so London in the 90s was a very
00:11:39
specific time in the art world you
00:11:41
describe it in the book in full color
00:11:43
I'm curious is there any like
00:11:46
autobiographical elements in it for
00:11:48
yourself in terms of like characters
00:11:51
that maybe were inspired from real
00:11:52
people that you encountered in London in
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the '90s I've had a lot of mail from
00:11:57
people I knew back then who recogniz Iz
00:11:59
the settings and one or two of the kind
00:12:02
of background characters you know I mean
00:12:04
I kind of arrived at the point when the
00:12:06
Brit art moment was in full flow and
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some people were already very famous but
00:12:11
they were still kind of around like you
00:12:13
would still see the big artists just you
00:12:15
know at the opening or in the pub
00:12:17
afterwards I mean I think Damian Hurst
00:12:19
had already ascended to the kind of land
00:12:21
of billionaires by that point but the
00:12:23
rest of them were still very much kind
00:12:24
of around and in dialogue with everybody
00:12:26
else and that was another thing that was
00:12:29
interesting to me the way that there was
00:12:31
sort of people who had no public profile
00:12:34
were very respected by their peers I
00:12:37
realized that there were other kind of
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pecking orders other than the public
00:12:41
like who's done well who's got a big
00:12:43
gallery show pecking order there were
00:12:45
the people who actually counted were
00:12:47
often quite kind of invisible to the
00:12:49
public I mean in terms of the main
00:12:51
characters I mean they're all Composites
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and they're all kind of refractions of
00:12:55
various people there's no kind of Roman
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clay element but lot of people who were
00:13:00
around at that time I think will
00:13:02
recognize Echoes of let's say of various
00:13:05
sort of sceners one is allowed to do
00:13:08
that as an author of course um so as you
00:13:11
say it was like this British art moment
00:13:14
the ybas I guess were around as you
00:13:16
mentioned dami and Hurst it was also
00:13:18
this time of like Tony Blair it was
00:13:20
before the war started Oasis was around
00:13:24
they were probably out at the pubs too
00:13:26
maybe if you were lucky but it's just
00:13:27
interesting because reading this book
00:13:29
from the purview of today the London art
00:13:32
scene couldn't be more different now
00:13:34
after like this 14-year conservative 10e
00:13:37
ship that we're back to a labor party I
00:13:38
mean Oasis is on tour again so there's
00:13:40
like this desire to maybe go back to
00:13:42
that time and yet at the same time I
00:13:45
don't think that the London art world
00:13:46
has ever been more stratified than it is
00:13:48
I mean the wages for the Tate are so low
00:13:51
that you couldn't like live off of those
00:13:53
salaries unless you had like a backup
00:13:55
pile of money somewhere I'm curious how
00:13:57
you observed that
00:13:59
as a former Londoner as you correctly
00:14:02
point out there's been a structural
00:14:03
change in Britain and art school in
00:14:07
Britain was a really really important
00:14:09
social force in the postwar period all
00:14:11
the way up through into the '90s it was
00:14:13
a way for often working class people or
00:14:17
people who didn't have kind of
00:14:18
traditional academic background or chops
00:14:21
even to kind of find their way into kind
00:14:24
of cultural production you know as
00:14:25
everybody knows that art schools
00:14:27
produced all these amazing bands as well
00:14:30
as artists and designers and so on so
00:14:33
yeah it was a kind of amazing moment
00:14:35
1997 Blair got in we were very
00:14:38
optimistic Mrs Stater came to power when
00:14:40
I was 9 years old and I was 27 when the
00:14:43
conservatives left and so it felt like
00:14:45
there was this sort of sudden window
00:14:47
that opened up I mean obviously 9/11 and
00:14:50
all the things that happened after that
00:14:51
Blair support of Iraq eroded that but
00:14:54
there was this very brief period just
00:14:56
before the Millennium when there was a
00:14:58
real real sense of change and there was
00:15:01
a sense of social Mobility that feels
00:15:04
very much the same as the way I've heard
00:15:06
the' 60s described in London when you
00:15:08
know there was the toss and the CRM and
00:15:11
the artists were all kind of mixed up
00:15:12
together and that was what East London
00:15:13
was like I mean there was this weird
00:15:15
moment where there were about three pubs
00:15:18
around hawton square that people would
00:15:20
go to and you know you'd see like people
00:15:23
who were really famous like Kate Moss
00:15:25
would be at the pub and I mean not so
00:15:27
much ois cuz I mean they did turn up I
00:15:29
have to say I did I I did see Oasis at a
00:15:31
party a very funny party which was for
00:15:33
some sort of like quite Posh trance band
00:15:36
like the thing they hated most in life
00:15:38
they' suddenly gone you could tell they
00:15:40
were kind of almost growling with horror
00:15:42
of what they what they saw but I mean
00:15:44
people from blow would be around
00:15:46
Alexander McQueen all those figures it
00:15:48
was this moment and it was in quite a
00:15:50
kind of enclosed geographical area
00:15:52
clearly it was rapidly gentrifying and
00:15:55
the artists and the art scene the
00:15:57
excitement of the art scene was part of
00:15:58
that gentrification but I was lucky
00:16:01
enough to be there at a moment when
00:16:04
they' all felt very accessible like I
00:16:06
mean you know you would be around in the
00:16:08
same place the famous people and the
00:16:10
noodies would all be dancing on the same
00:16:12
dance floor buor was dating Goldie the
00:16:16
drum and bass musician and he had a
00:16:18
night on at hawkon Square so they'd be
00:16:20
out at the pub I mean I'm sorry I'm
00:16:22
making it sounds so terribly over
00:16:24
romanticized but it was fun and it was a
00:16:27
great moment to be in my 20s and for for
00:16:29
me I was just sort of vacuuming up all
00:16:32
this cultural knowledge and all this
00:16:34
kind of Panache I mean there were a lot
00:16:36
of incredibly eccentric and stylish
00:16:39
people around and I really felt that my
00:16:41
world was opening up at that point the
00:16:43
way you describe it it makes me envious
00:16:45
that I didn't live in that time as a
00:16:47
young adult but nevertheless I feel like
00:16:48
there's a desire to kind of return to
00:16:50
this glittery gritty era of London but
00:16:52
as you say it's become such an unlivable
00:16:54
City and in some ways the art World hubs
00:16:57
have shifted away from London especially
00:16:59
post brexit what I meant to say about
00:17:01
the art schools is that it was
00:17:02
subsidized I mean people could go to art
00:17:04
school without paying huge amounts of
00:17:06
money I mean the amount you know
00:17:07
everybody listening to this no doubt
00:17:09
knows how expensive Studio Art courses
00:17:11
are in the US that's a filter that
00:17:14
filters who gets to be an artist and I
00:17:17
think that kind of class restriction the
00:17:19
fact that it's not open to Outsiders in
00:17:22
the way that it was in Britain and in
00:17:24
the US and elsewhere actually damages
00:17:27
the scene
00:17:29
L I think the best way that Britain
00:17:32
could revive its fortunes post brexit is
00:17:35
actually just to be honest what we used
00:17:37
to call the doll the you used to be able
00:17:39
to claim unemployment benefit very
00:17:41
easily for a while I had my rent in a
00:17:43
shared house paid by the government and
00:17:46
that helped me get started as a writer
00:17:49
at a point when I you know I would have
00:17:51
had to been working other kinds of jobs
00:17:54
I imagine that's politically impossible
00:17:56
the idea of subsidizing the scruffy
00:17:58
layer about to be artists is not going
00:18:00
to be a big selling point for many
00:18:03
voters but in some way there has to be a
00:18:07
pipeline that allows creative people
00:18:10
from outside the upper middle and upper
00:18:13
classes to join this world otherwise it
00:18:16
will become as we've seen kind it's
00:18:18
careerist it's safe nepotistic it's
00:18:21
hugely nepotistic because nepotism about
00:18:23
the only way that you could you know if
00:18:24
you want to be a dosent at the T you
00:18:27
have to have some other form of
00:18:30
[Music]
00:18:37
income I think that um on the note of
00:18:39
Voters I mean total speculation but
00:18:42
because class has been such an ignored
00:18:44
issue in the art world and the working
00:18:45
class has become so alienated from art
00:18:48
voters won't very readily support
00:18:49
something that they don't see themselves
00:18:51
in like a wider breadth of Voters so
00:18:53
there's a strong argument to bring more
00:18:55
workingclass people into the art world
00:18:57
and actually there's some initiatives
00:18:58
doing that in the UK we had an article
00:19:00
by Joe Lawson tanker recently on artnet
00:19:02
about it but to come to my point like
00:19:04
class is sort of the taboo that still
00:19:07
remains in the art industry I find and
00:19:09
yet we're in a very exciting moment in
00:19:11
art where I think a lot of issues around
00:19:13
representation and the margins are being
00:19:15
dealt with headon and yet I feel like
00:19:17
what I loved so much about Blue Ruin was
00:19:18
that you took class and you talked about
00:19:21
it through these characters could you
00:19:23
speak a bit more about their class
00:19:26
issues that exist between them like
00:19:27
Alice and Jay and Rob for example they
00:19:30
all have very particular backgrounds Rob
00:19:33
the painter he is one of these
00:19:35
workingclass artists who's come through
00:19:37
this British art school system and is
00:19:39
able to make it I mean he ends up in the
00:19:41
US he's an assistant to a big roystering
00:19:44
German painter for a while but he's
00:19:46
interested in money he comes from no
00:19:48
money and he knows what it is to be poor
00:19:51
so he loves to be rich and that is
00:19:53
something that forms the kind of art
00:19:56
practice he has you now Alice is an ays
00:19:59
she's French Vietnamese she has a very
00:20:02
conservative Catholic background you
00:20:04
know I used to meet these young women
00:20:06
who were doing an art history at the
00:20:07
cour hold as a sort of finishing school
00:20:10
hobby like you could have go work at
00:20:12
Christies or sou beiz and you know find
00:20:14
a nice wealthy husband but it was no
00:20:16
sense that they would be able to either
00:20:18
be very serious academic players in art
00:20:21
history or heaven forbid actually be
00:20:23
artists and I mean Alice has these
00:20:25
desires to actually form her own life
00:20:28
but she needs to escape her background
00:20:30
Rob eventually kind of offers her a way
00:20:32
to do that which is one reason that she
00:20:34
leaves Jay for him and Jay has the sort
00:20:36
of strangers of the three backgrounds in
00:20:38
a way he has a Jamaican father and a
00:20:41
white English mother the Jamaican dad is
00:20:44
absent from his life and he's bought by
00:20:45
the mother and a very kind of unpleasant
00:20:48
stepfather in Essex sort of outside
00:20:52
London it's a part of England I grew up
00:20:55
in and further out into Essex where I've
00:20:58
given J his background it's an extremely
00:21:01
monocultural white workingclass place
00:21:04
and so as somebody who visually sticks
00:21:05
out he's a loner there and he's also
00:21:09
somebody who doesn't have the kind of
00:21:11
cultural connection to British Blackness
00:21:14
that you would expect so he's kind of
00:21:15
doubly alienated and it makes him a real
00:21:18
loner and he's kind of neurod Divergent
00:21:20
as well he has various sort of ticks and
00:21:23
requirements like he needs to organize
00:21:25
his life in certain ways in order to
00:21:27
function properly he wants to kind of
00:21:29
change the system by making work and
00:21:32
doesn't have any of the sort of social
00:21:34
ease and charm of Rob or Alice's sort of
00:21:37
pois she Alice is also very beautiful
00:21:40
which helps and hinders her life in
00:21:42
certain ways so they all have these
00:21:44
particular kind of class positions and
00:21:46
then in their different ways they all
00:21:47
end up in the US you know aliceon Rob as
00:21:50
a sort of wealthy New York art couple
00:21:52
and then Jay who is living this
00:21:54
extremely precarious
00:21:57
undocumented life and one of the things
00:22:00
that the pandemic made
00:22:02
visible were the sort of vertigen kind
00:22:05
of class stratifications of the US I was
00:22:08
in New York for the pandemic and you
00:22:10
noticed the people who kind of vanished
00:22:13
out of the city and then you suddenly
00:22:14
saw them on their Instagram stories on a
00:22:16
boat you know then there were the people
00:22:18
like me who could kind of afford to stay
00:22:21
in and work and have my food and other
00:22:24
necessities delivered by somebody else
00:22:26
who had to be out and about exposing
00:22:29
themselves to illness working a kind of
00:22:33
gig job and so it was very hard to
00:22:37
ignore those divisions which usually you
00:22:39
know in the normal run of things people
00:22:41
kind of willfully look away from and
00:22:43
there was the start of a conversation
00:22:45
about that I mean things like Mutual Aid
00:22:47
as a a system of survival were beginning
00:22:50
to emerge there was a kind of utopian
00:22:52
Dimension to the pandemic I mean that's
00:22:54
a really interesting thing that I think
00:22:56
when we look back will understand that
00:23:00
there was a chance to think again about
00:23:03
how we structure life and about how we
00:23:05
relate to each other and of course you
00:23:07
know as things have returned to relative
00:23:09
normality we've decided willfully to
00:23:11
forget all the good lessons that we
00:23:13
learned and all the possibilities that
00:23:14
we thought were there but while it was
00:23:17
in full swing and this book is set in
00:23:20
2020 in the kind of absolute teeth of
00:23:22
the thing there was a sense that
00:23:25
normality had been suspended and that we
00:23:27
could change and reinvent and that's you
00:23:30
know I think why the pandemic becomes a
00:23:31
sort of perfect set to unfold the art
00:23:34
world because what you described this
00:23:35
like stratified class system that nobody
00:23:38
wants to talk about is exactly also what
00:23:40
happened with covid I mean there's now
00:23:42
enough data I was reading an article to
00:23:44
show that like long covid you can almost
00:23:46
draw it along class and race lines and
00:23:48
you know Jay of course he has at the
00:23:50
opening scene of this book it becomes a
00:23:52
parent that he has long covid to turn
00:23:54
back to what you mentioned about
00:23:56
changing the system Jay tries to change
00:23:59
the system he becomes very critical
00:24:01
almost he enters his realm of like
00:24:02
institutional critique but he pushes too
00:24:06
hard and you know coming back to
00:24:08
something you said earlier about
00:24:09
collectors rubbing shoulders with you
00:24:11
know the like people of the art world
00:24:13
that are like living in like social
00:24:15
housing and it's all kind of fun for
00:24:16
them but Jay he almost pushes too much
00:24:19
and it alienates people I think this is
00:24:21
a really interesting subplot in the book
00:24:24
that gets mentioned because there's a
00:24:26
boundary pushing that people expect from
00:24:29
artists but there's also a sort of rule
00:24:30
following how did you research that
00:24:33
watching and doing um and yeah the Lin
00:24:35
stepping is so fascinating the artist
00:24:38
who can shock without forcing people
00:24:41
Beyond a limit you know I mean you think
00:24:43
of the kind of prankster artist like
00:24:46
Marcio Catalan who isn't necessarily
00:24:48
political but is all about a kind of
00:24:51
mockery then there are the more serious
00:24:53
sort of institutional critics I mean
00:24:55
obviously sort of someone like Hans
00:24:56
Harker is is the model that lot of
00:24:58
people think about Maria the painter who
00:25:01
has also done some very kind of
00:25:03
confrontational things with collectors
00:25:06
has alienated some people by wishing to
00:25:08
bring his own workingclass background
00:25:11
into things so the ideal positionality I
00:25:15
think for most art world people is to be
00:25:18
seen as being shocking and edgy without
00:25:21
any of the terms and conditions actually
00:25:23
changing so it's a sort of performance
00:25:25
of
00:25:26
oppositionality without any actual
00:25:29
commitment to making material change and
00:25:32
I think as soon as you start demanding
00:25:35
material
00:25:36
changes that's when everybody shuts down
00:25:40
we've seen all sorts of things like the
00:25:42
interrogation of board members of art
00:25:44
museums for their business commitments
00:25:48
it was the Whitney board wasn't it and
00:25:50
the tear gas manufacturer those kind of
00:25:53
things the art world has never liked to
00:25:55
look too closely at the sources of the
00:25:57
money and as soon as you press on that
00:25:59
particular Source spot you are likely to
00:26:01
be ejected unceremoniously I mean for
00:26:03
several years I've followed the doings
00:26:07
of the zovich collection in London where
00:26:10
the husband has connections to the IDF
00:26:13
and the initial source of their Fortune
00:26:16
was partly arms manufacturing and they
00:26:18
become big players in the London art
00:26:20
world and a lot of artists have refused
00:26:21
to carry on working with them whereas
00:26:24
other people criticize those artists
00:26:27
because you know with the withdrawal of
00:26:29
this money and this generous patronage
00:26:32
will make things harder you know people
00:26:33
don't have many opportunities and so
00:26:36
I've watched some people who are very
00:26:39
happy to take the money wherever it
00:26:40
comes from and other people who find
00:26:42
that impossible I mean there's no kind
00:26:44
of Clean Hands position you can take we
00:26:48
live in a society as they say and we're
00:26:50
always already kind of implicated by the
00:26:52
situation but you know the art World in
00:26:54
particular with this kind of almost kind
00:26:57
of Co bation of revolutionary rhetoric
00:27:00
and it's ultimately its commitment to an
00:27:03
extremely kind conservative social order
00:27:06
is particularly fragile in this regard
00:27:10
yeah like representing the revolution
00:27:11
while keeping the status quo intact is
00:27:13
sort of Theo in some cases to turn to
00:27:16
like the 2020 part of the book you put
00:27:18
like a very specific Tim stamp on it
00:27:22
which I'd like to talk about there's
00:27:23
like this me too moment and then there
00:27:25
is a moment when one of the characters
00:27:27
is looking at phone and I think it's the
00:27:29
murder of George Floyd that they watch
00:27:31
on the phone and then it kind of just
00:27:32
like passes just sticking with this idea
00:27:35
of this Elite liberal art world that is
00:27:36
like sheltered Away In This Very
00:27:38
luxurious home and then you have the
00:27:41
real world kind of like literally on
00:27:43
fire outside in New York at that exact
00:27:46
time can you speak a bit about the
00:27:48
intersection between class and race in
00:27:50
America and like what interested you
00:27:52
there because it's something that you've
00:27:53
explored in your other books as well I
00:27:55
wanted to have this sense of a real
00:27:58
world a sort of pastoral fantasy world
00:28:00
you know it's a very old structure I
00:28:02
mean you think of something like
00:28:03
Midsummer Night's Dream there's the real
00:28:05
world of the city where ordinary things
00:28:07
happen and then there's the Enchanted
00:28:09
Forest where you can magically fall in
00:28:12
love with a fairy you know the idea of
00:28:14
This Book Is that these people have
00:28:15
taken themselves away they're in a
00:28:17
Walled Garden they're in a kind of
00:28:19
paradise they can afford to disconnect
00:28:23
themselves from the larger things that
00:28:24
are happening and I wanted that that out
00:28:28
side world to sort of brush against them
00:28:31
just very slightly and so yeah
00:28:34
Marshall's Artist girlfriend Nicole who
00:28:37
is a black New Yorker is watching the
00:28:40
horrific video on her phone and expects
00:28:44
a reaction from the others and they
00:28:46
don't give it and that's so shocking to
00:28:50
her I mean that's her done I mean she
00:28:51
leaves after that minor spoiler but
00:28:54
something that is so kind of powerful
00:28:56
and personal to her can be dismissed
00:28:59
without a second thought by her
00:29:02
companions in this Upstate place and
00:29:05
that's when she realizes that she's in a
00:29:07
fundamentally different place you know
00:29:09
she's going to head back into New York
00:29:11
into the of melstrom of the protests
00:29:12
that took place in s of May June 2020
00:29:16
and I remember being in the city then
00:29:18
and living in Brooklyn somebody threw a
00:29:21
molto at our local police station and
00:29:24
the NYPD had helicopters just in
00:29:26
stationary positions all night every
00:29:28
night the windows are vibrating you're
00:29:31
really aware of this militarized
00:29:34
presence it was very very intense time I
00:29:37
mean it felt quite apocalyptic I mean at
00:29:39
that moment New York was the global
00:29:41
center of the pandemic and it felt like
00:29:44
we might be about to witness complete
00:29:46
collapse and the fact that there are
00:29:48
other people who not geographically very
00:29:50
far away but who could kind of press a
00:29:53
button and just kind of move Above This
00:29:56
it felt very profound I I don't if you
00:29:58
remember the hurricane that hit New York
00:30:00
and then knocked out the power for all
00:30:02
of lower Manhattan about kind of 10 12
00:30:05
years ago yeah course there's a famous
00:30:07
picture of one lit up building in a mass
00:30:10
of darkness and that's the Goldman Sachs
00:30:12
building they're the only people who
00:30:14
have their own power source and kind of
00:30:16
keep the lights on and andan there was a
00:30:17
sort of symbolism in that so I wanted to
00:30:20
have this feeling of the pandemic kind
00:30:22
of being all around the book but not
00:30:24
necessarily present in the book I didn't
00:30:26
want it to be a book which kind of
00:30:28
ticked off social issues in that
00:30:30
particular way but I wanted this kind of
00:30:33
unacknowledged presence or pressure
00:30:35
outside this quite kind of personal
00:30:37
story of these people and their
00:30:41
relationships how did you decide to
00:30:43
write about the pandemic because I mean
00:30:45
when we were living through it it felt
00:30:47
so real and then I feel like all the
00:30:48
details that you bring up in the book I
00:30:51
almost like had forgotten about like
00:30:52
even just the like the pilled mask
00:30:54
falling off the nose which I mentioned
00:30:56
at the top of the episode like it was
00:30:57
like growingly accurate the thing that I
00:30:59
really wanted to put in was just the way
00:31:01
that the strings of The Masks would
00:31:03
eventually cut into your ear yeah you
00:31:06
get a little sore spot I mean I kept a
00:31:08
diary I kind of realized there was
00:31:11
something about the nature of this
00:31:12
experience that would be impossible to
00:31:14
recall afterwards that we wouldn't know
00:31:17
cuz it was all about like what we
00:31:18
believed at the time I mean you remember
00:31:20
there's there was the moment when we
00:31:21
were all bleaching our Amazon packages
00:31:23
and leaving them outside because that
00:31:26
was our best guess as you know as to
00:31:28
what might be happening gradually we got
00:31:31
to handle on what this was what the kind
00:31:33
of range of possible outcomes were but
00:31:36
it's very very difficult to think back
00:31:38
into the kind of low information and
00:31:42
very panicked state of mind that we were
00:31:44
all you know people weren't sleeping
00:31:46
people were freaking out and so I kept a
00:31:48
very and probably also just to give
00:31:50
myself something to stop me panicking I
00:31:54
a very complete Diary of what I thought
00:31:56
was going on statistics kind of
00:31:59
observations like anything I could think
00:32:01
of and so when I came to write this I
00:32:03
could go back and see what the sort of
00:32:06
social rules were in that month of the
00:32:09
pandemic and try and kind of be as
00:32:11
precise as I could be interesting and
00:32:13
did you do a similar thing when you were
00:32:15
living in London in the 90s when did you
00:32:17
decide that you wanted to sort of
00:32:19
document that in fiction I mean I wanted
00:32:22
to write an art World novel for a long
00:32:24
time basically cuz the question of how
00:32:26
value arises like how everybody just
00:32:28
decide somebody is important and some
00:32:31
other person's work is not important
00:32:32
it's very fascinating to me I tried to
00:32:35
kind of couple of versions of it and I
00:32:37
was interested in what happens when an
00:32:40
artist dies and the studio kind of gets
00:32:42
locked up and people start kind of
00:32:45
assembling a kind of picture of a body
00:32:47
of work Supply becomes limited which is
00:32:49
really like the best case scenario for
00:32:51
an art dealer absolutely so those kind
00:32:54
of things were interesting to me and I
00:32:55
thought of stories around that then the
00:32:57
p pmic just kind of swept everything
00:32:59
away and I realized I would have to
00:33:01
write something that was kind of I
00:33:03
didn't want to write about the pandemic
00:33:05
in the sense that I didn't want to kind
00:33:06
of legislate what was done right and
00:33:08
what was wrong and whose position was
00:33:11
accurate and whose wasn't but I wanted
00:33:12
to write something that was in the
00:33:14
pandemic I mean partly because the bit
00:33:16
of this question of social rules like
00:33:18
just how do you communicate with
00:33:19
somebody when you're both masking you
00:33:21
know when is it okay to touch someone
00:33:23
when is it okay to be close it seemed
00:33:25
kind of put into operation and a sort of
00:33:28
set of rules and a set of ways of being
00:33:32
that were unique I'd already thought
00:33:35
about a story about people who hadn't
00:33:37
seen each other for a long time coming
00:33:39
back together and then adding into that
00:33:43
the kind of difficulties of the pandemic
00:33:46
in this group of people Marshall the
00:33:47
gallerist is particularly covid anxious
00:33:51
I would say like you know I mean he's
00:33:52
fallen down a kind of Internet Rabbit
00:33:54
Hole of conspiracy as well so there's
00:33:56
that sort of frame around it as all
00:33:58
these things that the pandemic caused
00:34:00
between people was a really kind of good
00:34:02
subject for a novelist yeah it's a very
00:34:04
rich subject matter and you tackle it
00:34:06
wonderfully I don't want to give too
00:34:08
many spoilers but painting is a big part
00:34:10
of this book and then there's also the
00:34:12
fact that Jay leaves it for performance
00:34:14
art and drops out of the art world so to
00:34:16
speak tell them I said no kind of energy
00:34:19
and you wrote um article in Harpers in
00:34:22
July called be here now which touches on
00:34:24
performance art and this term of immedia
00:34:28
which we had a podcast with Anna corn
00:34:30
who came up with the term and you know I
00:34:32
was thinking about this idea of dropping
00:34:34
out as you talk about it in the book as
00:34:36
an artist and maybe we could just talk
00:34:38
about that essay a little bit but also
00:34:40
I'm curious could an artist even drop
00:34:43
out anymore when I feel like the whole
00:34:46
condition of society right now is just
00:34:48
anxiety about disappearing because of
00:34:50
algorithms yeah I think that's so
00:34:52
interesting what would refusal look like
00:34:54
you know I mean I'm a genx person and
00:34:57
and there was this notion of selling out
00:35:00
that was part of the kind of cultural
00:35:02
vocabulary when I was coming up the idea
00:35:05
that by engaging in certain circuits of
00:35:09
circulation and you would be being
00:35:12
inauthentic there were certain other
00:35:14
ways of making and circulating your work
00:35:17
that would be better than others and the
00:35:19
idea of an outside to the market doesn't
00:35:21
seem to really occur to people as a
00:35:24
possibility now I mean there's a DIYs IC
00:35:28
is not what it was except as a kind of
00:35:30
look you know there's a sort of
00:35:32
nostalgia for tape cassette recordings
00:35:35
and z and things like that but there's a
00:35:37
kind of Cosplay aspect to that now but
00:35:39
whereas you know back in the day those
00:35:41
were considered the foundations of
00:35:43
possibly of an alternative
00:35:45
Society there's a cannon of artists who
00:35:48
have refused or dropped out in various
00:35:51
ways I mean the EP graph of the book is
00:35:53
a small quote by Lee Lozano who left the
00:35:57
New York yor art world in the early' 70s
00:36:00
and as a sort of artistic gesture of
00:36:02
refusal there a sort of ghost in the
00:36:04
background of the book is basian AR the
00:36:07
Dutch artist who who was at Kal art who
00:36:09
you know famously disappeared trying to
00:36:11
sail a very tiny boat across the
00:36:13
Atlantic of course that was in the 1970s
00:36:16
right that was yeah and he'd done a
00:36:18
previous series of work which I'm very
00:36:20
moved by which is all about failure
00:36:23
there were these series of photographs
00:36:24
and film of him falling falling off a
00:36:27
roof driving a bicycle into a canal in
00:36:31
Amsterdam and just like falling sideways
00:36:33
so the idea of a kind of failure not
00:36:36
kind of embodying this sort of if you
00:36:39
think the kind of paradigmatic artist is
00:36:41
a sort of Rob like mat Joo painter or
00:36:44
Jackson po or whoever the idea that you
00:36:47
in some way fail to kind of express your
00:36:50
subjectivity in this achieved way is a
00:36:54
kind of critical thing so basan ad's
00:36:56
sort of failure is I mean Chris burden
00:36:58
is another artist I got very interested
00:37:00
in while writing this book he did
00:37:02
various actions which were to do with
00:37:05
disappearance or in some way kind of
00:37:07
removing himself from the scene you know
00:37:10
there are other artists who just don't
00:37:12
participate in person in the art world
00:37:15
but who still sort of circulate their
00:37:17
work I mean someone like Katie Noland
00:37:19
would be a person like that so there are
00:37:22
all sorts of ways of either dropping out
00:37:24
or not being present and somehow some
00:37:26
artists have managed to make their
00:37:29
non-presence actually count in a way you
00:37:32
know I mean the fact that they're not
00:37:33
there feels almost more important than
00:37:35
all the 100 artists who are there can
00:37:38
you drop out completely I mean we've
00:37:40
watched visual culture conform itself to
00:37:44
the requirements of Instagram in a very
00:37:46
strange way book covers for example have
00:37:49
completely changed since book covers
00:37:51
have to be legible on an Instagram grid
00:37:54
like a painting exactly it's the same
00:37:55
thing people are buying art off
00:37:56
Instagram and things have to be quickly
00:38:00
legible they have to be graphic they
00:38:01
have to work at a small scale that's why
00:38:04
in hard cover books you get all these
00:38:05
big text covers now cuz if you do a kind
00:38:09
of subtle small illustration it's just
00:38:11
not going to be readable on that scale
00:38:14
and also in more profound ways the
00:38:16
algorithm Cuts grooves down which we run
00:38:19
assuming that we're still free to find
00:38:22
the things we love and to make our taste
00:38:24
whereas in fact we're being channeled in
00:38:26
certain ways so does the outside just
00:38:28
look like silence and invisibility do
00:38:30
you work in obscurity and then hope that
00:38:32
some charitable archivist or curator
00:38:36
kind of then makes a presentation of
00:38:38
your stuff after you've gone or do you
00:38:41
just completely disconnect art making
00:38:43
from any notion of subsistence or career
00:38:47
you know I think of artists who've made
00:38:49
actions just sort of in their Studios
00:38:51
and I was reading I read agent Piper a
00:38:55
while ago and you know she did things
00:38:56
that weren't intended to to be outward
00:38:57
facing at all that were in a way were
00:38:59
just about changing herself and her
00:39:01
understanding of herself and I think
00:39:03
there are a lot of people who make art
00:39:05
whose art is not outward facing in that
00:39:07
way I mean I have Jay experimenting with
00:39:10
very much this kind of self-
00:39:12
transformation in private as a kind of
00:39:14
artistic practice in the book but I
00:39:17
think it's still the correct move to try
00:39:18
and break these things and misuse them
00:39:21
and to kind of kick against the terms
00:39:23
and conditions that especially the big
00:39:25
platforms are setting because I think
00:39:28
there is a kind of visual culture that
00:39:31
has become a quick dopamine hit a quick
00:39:35
kind of selfie opportunity the Ric
00:39:39
anodization of our art world is not
00:39:42
necessarily a good thing and I'm always
00:39:45
fascinated and admiring of difficult
00:39:47
transgressive and just sort of orinary
00:39:49
people I feel like we're in an
00:39:51
interesting lag period right now between
00:39:53
as you mentioned in that essay like 2016
00:39:55
when the feeds went from chronolog IAL
00:39:57
to algorithmic and it feels like we're
00:39:59
still in this weird time where no one
00:40:01
really knows how to disrupt that quite
00:40:03
yet in a critical mass but I think about
00:40:05
the art critic Lawrence Alay who wrote
00:40:07
in the 70s that the first exhibition is
00:40:09
the artists finishing the work in the
00:40:11
studio with just themselves and maybe a
00:40:13
few friends before it becomes part of
00:40:15
the communication Network in some ways
00:40:17
everything changes and nothing changes
00:40:18
because I do think that that's still
00:40:20
like a truth that exists and maybe
00:40:22
something that we need to return to I
00:40:24
mean I certainly think For Young Artists
00:40:26
hard as it may be working in an
00:40:29
unrecognized way for a period of time is
00:40:32
very very useful I mean you see people
00:40:34
who get picked up from their degree
00:40:36
shows and suddenly having a bunch of
00:40:38
money thrown at them and they haven't
00:40:41
necessarily had the time to develop a
00:40:44
really strong sense of self and a
00:40:46
coherent practice it's no fun to be
00:40:50
broke and it's no fun to feel that
00:40:52
nobody cares about what you're doing but
00:40:53
actually that kind of experience of like
00:40:57
why am I doing this would I do it still
00:40:59
if nobody paid attention and answering
00:41:02
yes I would because it's what I care
00:41:03
about above everything else that I think
00:41:06
is very healthy for Creative people of
00:41:08
any kind you know obviously you then
00:41:10
want to be recognized and to be able to
00:41:12
ped your family but the primary thing is
00:41:15
to have a kind of a sort of weight a
00:41:19
kind of solidity to what you're doing
00:41:21
that isn't immediately being like Oh
00:41:23
make me another one of those because the
00:41:25
last one of those sold or do this
00:41:27
because you'll get likes and clicks yeah
00:41:30
this sort of dopamine reaction period
00:41:33
that hopefully we can find a way to like
00:41:34
not be as addicted to to close out you
00:41:37
clearly have a deep understanding and a
00:41:39
love of Art and yet a very skeptical
00:41:41
view of the art world I'm curious if you
00:41:43
could tell us a bit more about what
00:41:45
interests you about art and if you also
00:41:47
like the art world and you think it is a
00:41:49
system worthy of repair or saving or we
00:41:52
should just do away with it
00:41:53
completely I love it all I think is the
00:41:56
answer I mean I go through periods of
00:41:57
time when I go and see a lot of shows
00:41:59
and then other periods of time when I
00:42:01
don't and there are times when I can
00:42:02
walk into a gallery in Chelsea and just
00:42:06
want to kind of spit really like at some
00:42:09
sort of large pompus and empty item that
00:42:13
is being showcased to be sold to some
00:42:16
financier to kind of you know match the
00:42:18
sofa in The Loft I kind of enjoy all the
00:42:21
sort of social strangeness of the art
00:42:25
world but a core of it is of course
00:42:27
the work I'm a fan essentially you know
00:42:30
I mean that's one reason I wanted to
00:42:32
write this book because you know I
00:42:34
wanted to have a chance to think about
00:42:36
painting and to think about other kinds
00:42:38
of art practice that are related to what
00:42:41
I do but are different I mean especially
00:42:44
as the writer you're necessarily quite a
00:42:46
kind of verbal and heady sort of person
00:42:49
but there are artists who work by
00:42:51
intuition and who work by in much more
00:42:54
kind of tactile and intuitive ways that
00:42:57
you know so trying to understand that as
00:42:58
a non-intellectual kind of art practice
00:43:00
is really really interesting to me
00:43:02
because it's a bit foreign to my own
00:43:04
mentality so right now I'm in a period
00:43:08
of being very nourished and engaged by
00:43:12
art history you know I don't know
00:43:13
whether or I know what's going on enough
00:43:15
to have some sort of definitive take on
00:43:17
the scene of late summer 2024 but you
00:43:21
know I'll still be there trying to get a
00:43:22
free beer yeah at the
00:43:25
opening well I hope to see you there
00:43:27
there one day in person hope so yes it's
00:43:30
been such a pleasure to chat with you
00:43:32
and everyone listening I really can
00:43:33
recommend Blue Ruin which was such a
00:43:35
poignant and Powerful book so thank you
00:43:37
for writing it I think we needed it oh
00:43:39
well thank you so much for inviting me
00:43:41
on this is a really great place to come
00:43:43
and talk about it thanks Harry thank
00:43:45
you that's it for this week's episode if
00:43:48
you like what you heard you can
00:43:49
subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts
00:43:51
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00:43:53
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00:43:55
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discover what we're doing the art angle
00:43:59
is produced by Sonia manaly and Carolyn
00:44:01
Goldstein thanks for listening and we'll
00:44:03
see you next week