Want To Be A Better Human? You Need THESE Skills | Simon Sinek on Finding Mastery
Summary
TLDRThe discussion centers on Simon Sinek's philosophy of applying the concept of finite and infinite games to life and business, emphasizing the cultivation of human skills for long-term success and joy. He argues for the importance of understanding the infinite game within business settings to foster trust, cooperation, and innovation. This involves building teams that are not merely focused on winning but rather on sustaining success while enjoying the process. Sinek highlights how an infinite mindset can help organizations focus on continuity, learning from failures, and enhancing team functioning. He contrasts this with finite games like sports, where there is a clear endpoint. The dialogue touches on how to balance finite and infinite goals, the importance of leadership development, and promoting qualities such as empathy and vulnerability in organizational culture. Sinek criticizes the self-help industry for focusing on self-improvement at the expense of helping others, reiterating the need for skills that promote collective success.
Takeaways
- π Human skills are essential for sustainable success and joy in life.
- π― Understanding finite vs. infinite games aids in forming lasting strategies.
- π High-performing teams value camaraderie and the journey over just winning.
- π Listening and empathy are vital skills for effective leadership.
- π£οΈ Vulnerability in leadership fosters a safe and open work environment.
- π Businesses should focus on long-term goals and continuous improvement.
- β οΈ Recognizing failures is as important as celebrating successes.
- π€ Building trust and cooperation is key to team success.
- π The self-help industry often overlooks the importance of helping others.
- π Balance finite goals with infinite game awareness for holistic growth.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The discussion begins with a reflection on the absence of a "help others" section compared to the abundant "self-help" resources. Emphasis is placed on the importance of acquiring human skills, such as empathy and teamwork, which contribute to sustainable success and joy, rather than merely chasing achievements or wealth.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
The conversation highlights the difference between finite and infinite games. Finite games have known players, fixed rules, and agreed objectives, like in sports. Infinite games involve known and unknown players, changeable rules, and the objective is to stay in the game. Business and life are seen as infinite games, where the emphasis should be on continuous improvement instead of merely being the best.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
The speaker explains the potential negative effects of playing finite games with a short-term mindset in an infinite game like business. This can lead to decreased trust, cooperation, and innovation. The importance of understanding that the goal is not merely to win but to sustain is emphasized, with examples like Circuit City's bankruptcy being seen as part of a continuous game rather than a win for competitors.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
The discussion emphasizes that the joy of playing and experiencing relationships is more fulfilling than constantly seeking temporary pleasures of victory. This mindset shift is crucial for long-term satisfaction, especially for high performers who may miss out on this aspect.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
The analogy of running a marathon without knowing the distance reveals how anxiety-inducing it can be to have no fixed milestones. The conversation then addresses the balance between playing finite games within an infinite game and the necessity of having goals within a larger purpose. This is likened to the need for metrics and short-term goals within the broader, ongoing pursuit of health and personal growth.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
The principle of understanding failure in an infinite mindset is discussed. Missing a goal doesn't imply final failure, similar to missing performance metrics in business. Emphasizing learning and growth over time, the discussion highlights how a healthy team is like a sustained investment, not a short-term bet. Helping individuals grow collectively leads to lasting success.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Good teams value the learning from failures, and the adaptability to change according to new realities. The metaphor of a ship in rough waters is used, implying that real team strength shows under challenging situations. The contrast between planned strategies and dealing with unexpected realities illustrates the importance of flexibility and resilience.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Vision is introduced as a guiding principle beyond the immediate path, differentiating between chasing accomplishments and having a long-term destination. The concept of an infinite journey towards an ideal, with flexible paths and unexpected opportunities, reflects how leadership should keep focus on ultimate goals while being adaptable to present conditions.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
The speaker challenges the notion of success as a clear, finite destination, proposing instead a vision-driven approach where the journey matters more than specific paths. The historical perspective of revolutions and ideals being pursued as long-term visions is advised, emphasizing continuous effort towards creating a fulfilling and collective future.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
Human skills like listening and having effective confrontations are highlighted as essential for leaders. Understanding and respecting personal differences in coaching and feedback methods contributes to a healthier workplace. The emphasis is on creating safe environments where employees can express and grow, avoiding the pitfalls of gossip and unhealthy narratives.
- 00:50:00 - 00:55:00
Discussion of this section focuses on the avoidance of turning businesses into toxic environments where false narratives persist, and the importance of open, honest communication. Encouraging a culture where feedback is customized to individual needs leads to better development and a more positive organizational culture.
- 00:55:00 - 01:00:00
The conversation moves to the complexity of implementing principles like agency and boundaries in work environments. Emphasis is placed on active creation of supportive structures rather than granting external permissions. Acknowledging both personal agency and social dynamics adds depth to understanding human behavior in organizations.
- 01:00:00 - 01:05:00
It is pointed out that proper frameworks allowing personal agency must be supported by a culture of mutual understanding and feedback. Reinforcing the need for both individual expression and alignment with team objectives, this section defines effective collaboration grounded in shared goals, as opposed to purely individual achievements.
- 01:05:00 - 01:10:00
A connection between purpose and agency emerges as central to a thriving work environment. Organizations need to align their purpose with the individual purposes of employees, allowing mutual growth and fulfillment. This alignment leads to enhanced performance, loyalty, and sustained success.
- 01:10:00 - 01:15:00
The importance of investing in personal and team dynamics is reiterated as the foundation for high performance and resilience. Assigning roles based on individual strengths and fostering openness and adaptability encourages continuous improvement. The idea of sustainable success demands a shift from conventional metrics and hierarchy to co-creating environments of actualization.
- 01:15:00 - 01:20:00
Real-world application of leadership techniques, such as adjusting coaching to personal preferences and fostering open exchanges, is explored. This practical approach, built on understanding, creates a vibrant community where shared learning and collaboration drive lasting organizational growth.
- 01:20:00 - 01:25:22
Concluding thoughts emphasize the value of maintaining a balance between immediate objectives and overarching vision, using the analogy of a Super Bowl loss. Acknowledgment of finite challenges and collective learning shapes the organization's journey, reinforcing the philosophy of infinite growth and contribution to broader societal good.
Mind Map
Video Q&A
What are finite and infinite games?
Finite games have known players, fixed rules, and a clear endpoint, like sports. Infinite games have known and unknown players, changeable rules, and the objective is to stay in the game, similar to life.
How can businesses apply the concept of infinite games?
Businesses should focus on sustainability, innovation, and team building, ensuring continued success by valuing human skills like cooperation and leadership over short-term wins.
What is Simon Sinek's view on self-help?
Simon criticizes the self-help industry for focusing too much on individual success rather than helping others, suggesting that true human skills include caring for others.
How do high-performing teams operate according to Simon?
High-performing teams prioritize relationships, teamwork, and the joy of playing, focusing less on winning and more on sustainable success and maintaining mental well-being.
What is Simon's take on vulnerability in leadership?
Simon believes vulnerability in leadership is about being honest about shortcomings and creating an open environment where team members can express themselves openly without fear.
How does Simon suggest dealing with failures?
Simon advocates acknowledging failures, learning from them, and focusing on improvement rather than solely aiming for success.
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- 00:00:01there's an entire section in the
- 00:00:02Bookshop called self-help but there's no
- 00:00:04section in the Bookshop called help
- 00:00:05others we have hard skills the skills
- 00:00:06you need to do your job and human skills
- 00:00:08the skills you need to be a better human
- 00:00:09being you know and I want more human
- 00:00:11skills in the world what we're talking
- 00:00:13about is not a recipe for Success it's a
- 00:00:15recipe for sustain success and it's also
- 00:00:17a recipe for Joy while you're succeeding
- 00:00:20and the ability to learn your lessons
- 00:00:22when it doesn't go well that's what
- 00:00:23we're talking
- 00:00:28about
- 00:00:30Simon I am so stoked to have this
- 00:00:33conversation with you you've taken
- 00:00:35complicated ideas made them very simple
- 00:00:37to understand and provided a massive
- 00:00:40gift to Millions so thank you for coming
- 00:00:42in thank you thanks for having me we are
- 00:00:44recording this the day after the Super
- 00:00:46Bowl and I was nine Seasons with the
- 00:00:49Seattle Seahawks and we actually had
- 00:00:51somebody come in to talk about the
- 00:00:52infinite game I think he got nearly run
- 00:00:55out of the business or run out of the
- 00:00:56room like it didn't it didn't hang right
- 00:00:58it didn't work right
- 00:01:00and so I think you'll have an idea of
- 00:01:03probably why because you've been doing
- 00:01:05obviously a bunch of work around it but
- 00:01:06if you were to if you were in front of
- 00:01:09the 49ers today yeah the day after they
- 00:01:11lost in the Super Bowl yeah how would
- 00:01:14you have a conversation about the
- 00:01:15infinite game good coaches and good
- 00:01:18owners know have a sense of what the
- 00:01:21infinite game is Right clearly the game
- 00:01:24is about winning and losing and you
- 00:01:25should play to win of course but they
- 00:01:28all know what infinite game is is
- 00:01:30because they talk about team building
- 00:01:32you know and they talk about off the
- 00:01:34field and so I mean that stuff is all
- 00:01:36infinite game you talk about the quality
- 00:01:38of human being you talk about
- 00:01:40camaraderie and and and teamwork that's
- 00:01:43all infinite game stuff and it all comes
- 00:01:45to bear on the day so I think they have
- 00:01:48a sense of it they just use different
- 00:01:50language for it so inside of a sport
- 00:01:52franchise you can have part of it part
- 00:01:55of it be the infinite game and part of
- 00:01:56it be the finite game finite game should
- 00:01:59we the terms yeah let oper start there
- 00:02:02so let's define the terms in the mid
- 00:02:031980s a philosopher and theologian by
- 00:02:05the name of Dr James cars defined these
- 00:02:08two types of Gams finite games and
- 00:02:10infinite games a finite game is defined
- 00:02:12as known players fixed rules and an
- 00:02:15agreed upon objective football if
- 00:02:17there's a winner necessarily there has
- 00:02:18to be a loser or losers but more
- 00:02:21important there's always a beginning a
- 00:02:23middle and an end infinite games are
- 00:02:25defined as known and unknown players
- 00:02:27which means you don't necessarily know
- 00:02:29who all the other players are the rules
- 00:02:31are changeable which means every player
- 00:02:33can play however they want new players
- 00:02:36can join at any time and the objective
- 00:02:38is to stay in the game as long as
- 00:02:39possible to perpetuate the game
- 00:02:41obviously we are players in infinite
- 00:02:43games every day of Our Lives whether we
- 00:02:44know it or not no one's ever going to be
- 00:02:46declared the winner of career
- 00:02:48Rockefeller John Rockefeller probably
- 00:02:49thought he he probably I mean I think
- 00:02:51there's a lot of people who think they
- 00:02:52did yeah right yeah you know no one's
- 00:02:54ever declared the winner of Education or
- 00:02:56the winner of being healthy right it
- 00:02:58doesn't exist and there's definitely no
- 00:02:59such thing as winning business for
- 00:03:00example but what I find fascinating is
- 00:03:02if you listen to the language of so many
- 00:03:04leaders it becomes abundantly clear that
- 00:03:06they not actually know the game they're
- 00:03:07playing in they talk about being number
- 00:03:09one being the best or beating their
- 00:03:11competition based on what based on what
- 00:03:14agreed upon metrics objectives and time
- 00:03:16frames and this is a problem because
- 00:03:18when we play with a finite mindset in an
- 00:03:20infinite game when we play to win in a
- 00:03:22game that has no Finish Line there are
- 00:03:24very predictable and consistent outcomes
- 00:03:26the big ones are the decline of trust
- 00:03:28the decline of cooperation the decline
- 00:03:30of innovation so like when Circuit City
- 00:03:32went bankrupt Best Buy didn't win
- 00:03:33anything right the game continues with
- 00:03:35or without the player and new players
- 00:03:37will fill the space in fact Circuit City
- 00:03:40was replaced by Amazon so it changed the
- 00:03:41whole game for best bu so the rules
- 00:03:44areay the it's existential right yeah so
- 00:03:47a sports franchise of course they want
- 00:03:50to win of of course and they understand
- 00:03:53that winning championships brings in
- 00:03:55money and you know helps keep the the
- 00:03:57franchise alive but there's more to the
- 00:04:00game than simply each game um and it's
- 00:04:04very dangerous to think of the infinite
- 00:04:06game as simply winning a series of
- 00:04:07finite games that's what Jack Welch used
- 00:04:09to believe you know which is just win
- 00:04:11and then just win again and then just
- 00:04:12win that's just moving goalposts right
- 00:04:14and that's incredibly unsatisfying you
- 00:04:17know because you that's like saying if I
- 00:04:20make a million dollars I'll be happy
- 00:04:21okay that didn't happen if I make $2
- 00:04:23million I'll be happy okay if I make 3
- 00:04:25million that's what that is that's a
- 00:04:26series of finite games if you just hit
- 00:04:28the numbers you'll get a bonus okay just
- 00:04:30hit the numbers again and for some
- 00:04:31reason if you keep doing it whether you
- 00:04:33hit the numbers or not life stops being
- 00:04:35fulfilling the thrill of the first two
- 00:04:38or three times goes away you get good at
- 00:04:40it it's not exciting anymore and
- 00:04:43fulfillment starts to go down and so the
- 00:04:45infinite game as it applies to a sports
- 00:04:48franchise is is the joy of coming to
- 00:04:51work not just winning the game sure you
- 00:04:54get a spike each time you win but that's
- 00:04:57there's a difference between happiness
- 00:04:58and joy right happiness is fleeting
- 00:05:01watch a movie go on a date win a game
- 00:05:04you know have a good meal happy happy
- 00:05:05happy pleasure pleasure pleasure
- 00:05:07pleasure pleasure and it's amazing and
- 00:05:09then it goes away it go it's amazing and
- 00:05:11it goes away and drug addicts that's all
- 00:05:13they can do is is the next hit the next
- 00:05:15hit the next hit or people who become
- 00:05:17addicted to money or people who become
- 00:05:18addicted to Performance the next hit the
- 00:05:20next hit the next hit of performance is
- 00:05:23is is a seeking of happiness but there's
- 00:05:25a lack of Joy The Joy comes from the joy
- 00:05:28of the playing the joy comes from the
- 00:05:30relationships that I've built along the
- 00:05:32way the joy comes from knowing that the
- 00:05:34work that I have done is actually of
- 00:05:37greater value than simply the money I
- 00:05:39make it's contributing to something
- 00:05:40bigger than myself like all of this has
- 00:05:43has purpose so the infinite game is hard
- 00:05:47for for a lot of high performers to get
- 00:05:50and it's very often the thing that
- 00:05:51they're missing when they get very
- 00:05:54successful during my crosswalk from
- 00:05:56sport best practices and insights from
- 00:05:59the psych ology of sport into business
- 00:06:01often times the astute leader will
- 00:06:05say yeah you know the sport the sport
- 00:06:08analogy doesn't quite work I say yeah
- 00:06:11correct correct and I always say that
- 00:06:13the sport that kind of holds up is the
- 00:06:16Ultram marathoner back to back to back
- 00:06:18to back right so there's the endurance
- 00:06:21part of
- 00:06:22it they are not interested in often
- 00:06:26times the winning of it certainly there
- 00:06:27are mhm triathletes and Ultras that they
- 00:06:30want to win but for the most part that
- 00:06:31Community is like did you try did you go
- 00:06:34to your edges of course people want to
- 00:06:36win but it is such a marathon in and of
- 00:06:38itself that there is no beginning and
- 00:06:40end is the the crosswalk I try to make
- 00:06:42there infinite and finite approach is
- 00:06:46more as more astute to what we're trying
- 00:06:48to do however the in business they need
- 00:06:53to win they need to produce they need to
- 00:06:55perform to stay in the game so how do
- 00:06:59you square those two that you're playing
- 00:07:01a finite game in an infinite game is
- 00:07:03that how you said it so when you play
- 00:07:05with a finite mindset mindset in an
- 00:07:07infinite game right so there are always
- 00:07:09finite games within an infinite game
- 00:07:11okay right the two they're they're not
- 00:07:13mutually exclusive the infinite game
- 00:07:15contains the finite games so the analogy
- 00:07:17that I like to use is being healthy
- 00:07:20right I want to be healthy well nobody
- 00:07:22wins Health right and there's many many
- 00:07:25things you have to do to be healthy you
- 00:07:26have to eat right you have to get enough
- 00:07:27sleep you have to exercise you have to
- 00:07:29have personal relationships you you have
- 00:07:31to have friends and love in your life
- 00:07:32you know all these things matter there's
- 00:07:34probably 30 other things we could list
- 00:07:36but those are the big four and you'll
- 00:07:38never be a master at all of them
- 00:07:39simultaneously they sort of go up and
- 00:07:41down and it's a striving right it's it's
- 00:07:44infinite but you can still have finite
- 00:07:46goals within that I want to lose x
- 00:07:48amount of weight by X date and you can
- 00:07:50work to that goal and you know perfectly
- 00:07:52well you know better than I
- 00:07:54do that metrics matter like human beings
- 00:07:57need metrics we're biologically designed
- 00:07:59to to to to achieve things so that we
- 00:08:02will keep achieving things find food
- 00:08:04build shelter right right that's right
- 00:08:06like we love we love dopamine when
- 00:08:08healthy it's very valuable yeah that's
- 00:08:09right can you imagine running a marathon
- 00:08:11without mile markers it would actually
- 00:08:13be unnerving so there's nothing wrong
- 00:08:15with actually creates a ton of anxiety
- 00:08:17for people when you say just keep
- 00:08:18running and you don't know how long or
- 00:08:20for you right they what we actually do
- 00:08:22in those situation is we the healthy
- 00:08:24people hedge their bet just a little bit
- 00:08:26run a little bit slower than their
- 00:08:28possible so you never quite really
- 00:08:30you're if you don't know thec you're try
- 00:08:32to save your energy and so if you want
- 00:08:36to pick an arbitrary number on an
- 00:08:37arbitrary date I want to lose x amount
- 00:08:39of weight by X date great you work
- 00:08:41towards it you wear yourself every day
- 00:08:42some days you you feel good some days
- 00:08:44you feel bad ites you know fits and
- 00:08:47starts and you achieve your goal you hit
- 00:08:49your weight goal by the right date you
- 00:08:51celebrate huge dopamine hit but you have
- 00:08:53to keep exercising for the rest of your
- 00:08:54life it's not over like it's just an
- 00:08:56event contained within something much
- 00:08:58larger what I find more interesting is
- 00:09:01what happens if you miss your goal and
- 00:09:02the answer is nothing nothing happens
- 00:09:06right well on that goal but if you miss
- 00:09:08your two quarter two quarters in a row
- 00:09:11yeah I call it the invisible handshake
- 00:09:13in sport and business is that in sport
- 00:09:15is usually more concrete yeah which is
- 00:09:17the invisible handshake it's it's more
- 00:09:19visible I should say not for long NFL so
- 00:09:23if you don't perform well long enough um
- 00:09:27you're asked not to come back club and
- 00:09:30maybe somebody else will pick you up
- 00:09:32right so free agency in business it's a
- 00:09:34little more subtle you know because you
- 00:09:36can hide a little bit I know my our
- 00:09:37business friends are going what do you
- 00:09:38mean you can hide yeah in a
- 00:09:40multinational you can find ways you know
- 00:09:43but if you don't perform at some Metric
- 00:09:46you're asked not to be included in this
- 00:09:48community the bad companies are that
- 00:09:50doggy dog you know where it's only the
- 00:09:53numbers you P your own people against
- 00:09:55each other and you end up building a
- 00:09:57culture where people will stab each
- 00:09:58other in the back back steal each
- 00:10:00other's credit because that's the
- 00:10:02environment you've created and you can
- 00:10:04have short-term success that way this is
- 00:10:06not what we're talking about it's not a
- 00:10:07recipe for Success it's a recipe for
- 00:10:09sustained success and it's also a recipe
- 00:10:11for Joy while you're succeeding and the
- 00:10:14ability to learn your lessons when it
- 00:10:15doesn't go well that's what we're
- 00:10:17talking about the the doggy dog world
- 00:10:19that that you're painting um it will it
- 00:10:22can it can achieve but it won't last and
- 00:10:25it's at some point it will break and it
- 00:10:27will be probably dramatic or there'll be
- 00:10:28some Scandal almost every Scandal we see
- 00:10:30in business it's not an anomaly it's
- 00:10:33usually years in the making if you just
- 00:10:34peel it back and look at the culture
- 00:10:36when I talk about nothing happens the
- 00:10:39reality is if you have an infinite
- 00:10:40mindset you can still have goals but I
- 00:10:43think what happens is we don't consider
- 00:10:44how those goals are achieved right so
- 00:10:46for example if you have a sales or
- 00:10:48organization that's very finite minded
- 00:10:50hit the numbers hit the numbers you can
- 00:10:52have a promotion have a sale near the
- 00:10:54end of the year and you can Spike the
- 00:10:55numbers and you'll hit it right but is
- 00:10:57it a healthy organization with high
- 00:10:58functioning team with a of cooperation
- 00:10:59and Innovation you know people come and
- 00:11:02go they're getting stabbed in the back
- 00:11:03they're quitting they're getting fired
- 00:11:05every time you have a mass layoffs like
- 00:11:07morale is destroyed you got to takes way
- 00:11:09longer to rebuild that you know versus
- 00:11:13an organization that still has the goals
- 00:11:15but they're also measuring how they
- 00:11:16achieve their goals they're measuring
- 00:11:19the quality of leadership they're
- 00:11:21checking are people getting fired and
- 00:11:24and and are they quitting at high levels
- 00:11:26which is disruptive and also very
- 00:11:28expensive they miss the goal but it's
- 00:11:30only because they pick the wrong date
- 00:11:31you can if you look at the trend data
- 00:11:33it's not a it's not a a roller coaster
- 00:11:35like the other one but this beautiful
- 00:11:37and you like oh you're going to hit it
- 00:11:38in 14 months as opposed to 12 I can see
- 00:11:41that not to mention the fact that oh my
- 00:11:43God this is a high functioning team and
- 00:11:45that Trend will continue a lot longer
- 00:11:47over time than the other example and
- 00:11:50that's one of the problems most
- 00:11:51organizations ignore my
- 00:11:54work no matter of the fact that it's
- 00:11:56usually grounded in biology and
- 00:11:58anthropology and human behavior and all
- 00:11:59that stuff in other words most of my
- 00:12:01work is not my opinion that's just how
- 00:12:03people work right that's just like
- 00:12:05finite and infinite games is just that's
- 00:12:07just how the world functions right it's
- 00:12:09not my opinion it's a truth um but the
- 00:12:12reason most companies don't use my work
- 00:12:15is because I can't predict when it'll
- 00:12:18work so for example if you say I want to
- 00:12:21get into shape I go great I need you to
- 00:12:22work out every single day for 20 minutes
- 00:12:25100% you will get into shape when I have
- 00:12:29no clue and neither does any doctor and
- 00:12:32for some people it'll go a bit quicker
- 00:12:33and for some people it'll go a bit
- 00:12:34slower but if you trust in the process
- 00:12:36100% it's going to work like how long
- 00:12:39does it take to teach your kid how to
- 00:12:40ride a bicycle nobody knows now every
- 00:12:43one of us can teach our kids how to ride
- 00:12:44bicycles it's a process and there's some
- 00:12:46scrape knees and there's some tears and
- 00:12:48there's some anger but if you stick with
- 00:12:49it 100% of people will learn how to rise
- 00:12:52ride a bicycle when I don't know and
- 00:12:55that's why most organizations don't use
- 00:12:58my work
- 00:12:59is because they want it to work on the
- 00:13:02arbitrary date that they picked and they
- 00:13:04need the arbitrary number to be hit on
- 00:13:06that arbitrary date and so what ends up
- 00:13:08happening is you abandon you abandon
- 00:13:11process for
- 00:13:12shortcuts and I mean we see people do it
- 00:13:14in in health all the time like like I'd
- 00:13:17like to lose like 5 to eight pounds not
- 00:13:21a lot but I need to lose 5 to eight
- 00:13:22pounds a friend of mine literally said
- 00:13:24to me take o zic I was like for5 she's
- 00:13:28like yeah take OIC I'm like 5 pounds
- 00:13:32like that like whether OIC has side
- 00:13:34effects or not certainly wasn't the
- 00:13:36design certainly not that like if I I'm
- 00:13:3830 or 40 pounds overweight yes but but
- 00:13:42that's the point which is the the the
- 00:13:45the knee-jerk to take the shortcut for
- 00:13:47something that's not difficult just
- 00:13:50requires a little effort and that's a
- 00:13:52lot of work when I say work I mean like
- 00:13:54going to work like our jobs like none of
- 00:13:57it's that complic at it just requires a
- 00:14:00little discipline and because of the
- 00:14:02incentive structures and and the time
- 00:14:04frames we abandon those disciplines and
- 00:14:08I think it's the same for how a lot of
- 00:14:09people live their lives unfortunately
- 00:14:11including myself by the way I abandon
- 00:14:13discipline all the time for a shortcut
- 00:14:16but uh but you know just a you know to
- 00:14:18be aware of it I think at least Spade of
- 00:14:20spade it's a big part of yeah most
- 00:14:23people know if we put an apple and an
- 00:14:25apple pie on a table which one is
- 00:14:28healthy yeah yeah yeah it's the Apple
- 00:14:30but I but I always say but apple pie
- 00:14:32it's fruit so I'm going to eat the apple
- 00:14:34pie quick pause here to share some of
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- 00:16:33legal or tax advice past performance is
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- 00:16:38terms and conditions apply let's jump
- 00:16:41right back into the conversation it does
- 00:16:43require great commitment towards
- 00:16:44something to be disciplined over time
- 00:16:47yeah and this is where your other work
- 00:16:49on understanding purpose and living
- 00:16:51purpose aligned is really important but
- 00:16:53let's stay here for just a moment you
- 00:16:55say people that or companies that don't
- 00:16:56use my work most meaning that that there
- 00:16:59are some yeah that do sure and I don't
- 00:17:02know if you can point to them or not but
- 00:17:03those companies that do what is the
- 00:17:06promise that you're pointing towards
- 00:17:08like what is the you you you did mention
- 00:17:11them there's uh more creativity yeah um
- 00:17:14SL Innovation yeah there's more teaming
- 00:17:16fill in the blanks is it a higher
- 00:17:18performing organization meaning is the
- 00:17:21bet that we are going to work well
- 00:17:23together we're going to be better teams
- 00:17:24and in return we're probably going to
- 00:17:26see some profits that are going to be
- 00:17:27and performance that are going to be
- 00:17:28remarkable yeah you are saying that yeah
- 00:17:31yeah and so if you're patient and you
- 00:17:34don't know when and but it's not like
- 00:17:35you have to wait 10 years you know like
- 00:17:39you know these things sometimes go
- 00:17:40quicker than you expect but they're it's
- 00:17:43not like I'm asking you to like follow a
- 00:17:46process and then you're going to have to
- 00:17:47wait eight times longer it's it's just
- 00:17:50not predictable in time is the is the
- 00:17:52issue if you and more important it's
- 00:17:55it's not even when you achieve it's that
- 00:17:56you will continue to achieve for longer
- 00:17:58that's the more important thing it's an
- 00:18:00interesting bet because that is um a
- 00:18:03shortened Runway is a problem for all
- 00:18:05businesses including certainly
- 00:18:07entrepreneurship and so you're saying
- 00:18:09yeah if you get some of these base
- 00:18:10pillars in place you're playing the
- 00:18:12infinite infinite game you're more
- 00:18:14likely to have a longer
- 00:18:16Runway and that's not because money is
- 00:18:18not going to run out that's because
- 00:18:20people are going to work better together
- 00:18:22judge the quality of a crew by how a
- 00:18:24ship performs in Rough Waters not calm
- 00:18:25Waters 100% you know and so you know I
- 00:18:29think a lot of quote unquote High
- 00:18:30performing companies think they're
- 00:18:32amazing and think they have the best
- 00:18:34people on the planet while they're high
- 00:18:35performing you know throw a throw a
- 00:18:38pandemic at them throw a scandal at them
- 00:18:41throw um uncontrollable factors like you
- 00:18:44know supply chain or a fire somewhere or
- 00:18:46a volcano in Iceland that screws up all
- 00:18:48the air freight show a new technology
- 00:18:51you know like the internet that renders
- 00:18:53your business model
- 00:18:55obsolete now let's talk about how good
- 00:18:57that team is
- 00:18:59and magical teams are the ones that
- 00:19:02hunker down and go all right how we
- 00:19:04going to get through this one A friend
- 00:19:06of mine who is a general in the Marine
- 00:19:08Corps says you know no plan ever
- 00:19:10survives contact with the Enemy and I
- 00:19:12it's the same in business like you can
- 00:19:14have all the grand plans you want and
- 00:19:15career plans you want whether for your
- 00:19:17you know business plans for your company
- 00:19:19or personal career nothing survives
- 00:19:21reality you know um we're not in control
- 00:19:25to have guiding principles that are
- 00:19:27bigger than the path
- 00:19:29I'll give you an analogy
- 00:19:30right so my whole career when I when I
- 00:19:35worked in for corporations my reviews
- 00:19:37were always the same um Simon you have
- 00:19:40no Focus right um and my whole life my
- 00:19:44teachers my parents everybody like if
- 00:19:46only you would focus right and there's a
- 00:19:48great irony is because I'm actually more
- 00:19:50focused than most people I'm just
- 00:19:52focused at a distance that's way Far
- 00:19:55Beyond the Horizon which means that for
- 00:19:57me the path is flexible I'm agnostic as
- 00:20:02the path that I take to get to a very
- 00:20:03fixed point in the far off distance a
- 00:20:05world in which the vast majority of
- 00:20:06people wake up every single morning
- 00:20:08inspired feel safe wherever they are and
- 00:20:10end the day fulfilled by the work that
- 00:20:11they do most people are very very
- 00:20:14focused on the path that they've chosen
- 00:20:16right so the analogy would be um you
- 00:20:19leave your like you you come out of the
- 00:20:21house in the morning and you see your
- 00:20:23neighbor packing up their car and you'll
- 00:20:26be like hey where you going they look at
- 00:20:27you go vacation you're like oh cool
- 00:20:29where are you going and they said
- 00:20:30vacation you're like no no I get that
- 00:20:32but where are you going they're like I
- 00:20:33told you
- 00:20:34vacation I'm like well then you're like
- 00:20:36fine well how you going to get there
- 00:20:38well I'm going to take 95 and I've got a
- 00:20:41goal I'm going to drive 150 miles a day
- 00:20:44right and that's how most of us live our
- 00:20:46lives which is we want to be successful
- 00:20:48vacation right make it you know Advance
- 00:20:52it's all
- 00:20:53these amorphous goals like just saying
- 00:20:56vacation they're not they're not a
- 00:20:57destination
- 00:20:59it's just something and then we plan our
- 00:21:01routs I'm going to make this amount of
- 00:21:03money I'm going to do this and like I'm
- 00:21:04going to drive 150 miles and we're all
- 00:21:06really pride ourselves and we hit our
- 00:21:07goal or I drove 200 miles a day I'm
- 00:21:09ahead of goal how do you know even what
- 00:21:11road you're driving or you don't even
- 00:21:12know where you're going and what if new
- 00:21:13opportunity shows up you don't know
- 00:21:16which road to take now I'm the opposite
- 00:21:18you know I'm I'm in Los Angeles I'm
- 00:21:20trying to get to californ and I'm trying
- 00:21:21to get to New York right let's just
- 00:21:24pretend it's an infinite you know goal
- 00:21:26it's not finite it's way off some Vision
- 00:21:28in the future so I know I got to go du
- 00:21:31East right but what if the freeway is
- 00:21:33blocked well I'll take a side road that
- 00:21:35goes in the wrong direction and
- 00:21:36everybody thinks I've lost my focus
- 00:21:38because I'm going in the wrong direction
- 00:21:39but I know that I would rather take a
- 00:21:40slow cutus route that gets me back to
- 00:21:43where I'm going rather than sitting in
- 00:21:44traffic or if somebody says I got a jet
- 00:21:47you want to come with me on the jet I'm
- 00:21:48like which way is the jet going where
- 00:21:51most people are going like jets go fast
- 00:21:52yes and so they're saying yes to things
- 00:21:55they shouldn't be saying yes to and no
- 00:21:56to things because they're slow or seem
- 00:21:58to go Sidetrack and so yes sometimes
- 00:22:01highly focused people are focused on the
- 00:22:03path with no sense of destination and I
- 00:22:07would rather people have a very clear
- 00:22:08sense of destination and you'll figure
- 00:22:10out a path that's why there's Innovation
- 00:22:12well said well done the whole thing
- 00:22:14hangs together nicely and and so I was
- 00:22:19you thought about this I it you surprise
- 00:22:21me you surprise me with that people say
- 00:22:24vacation and I was like oh that's the
- 00:22:26enlightened one the one that say says
- 00:22:28I'm going where are you going I don't
- 00:22:31know I'm just going I I was falling in
- 00:22:33love with that amorphous no end point
- 00:22:36like I am going to explore life yes and
- 00:22:38I thought that's what you were going
- 00:22:39with and he said no no there's nothing
- 00:22:41Buddhist about it no was certainly not
- 00:22:43okay the H3 Horizon 3 type of thinking
- 00:22:46which is what you're talking about and
- 00:22:49then you're hooking around that a
- 00:22:51destination so usually Horizon 3 is
- 00:22:54certainly it's way out there and to me
- 00:22:57my when I think h 1 H2 and H3 that H3
- 00:23:01tends to shift when I get to
- 00:23:03H2 and so it doesn't shift for you
- 00:23:06though you're like it's New York it's so
- 00:23:08so this is what idealism is right this
- 00:23:10is what Vision should be most people
- 00:23:12when they talk about Vision I think they
- 00:23:13they what they mean is a big hairy
- 00:23:15audacious goal yeah you know hard
- 00:23:18distant achievable you know and true
- 00:23:22Vision like all men are created equal
- 00:23:24well I mean we're still figuring that
- 00:23:26one out 250 years later right like true
- 00:23:30vision is an ideal state of the world
- 00:23:32that doesn't yet exist and we call it
- 00:23:33Vision because I can see it in my mind's
- 00:23:35eye I can paint a picture it's a shining
- 00:23:36sit in a hill that's right you know and
- 00:23:39and and we'll never get there but we'll
- 00:23:40die trying which is the point this is
- 00:23:42one of the foundational practices that I
- 00:23:45use in sports psychology is to just
- 00:23:47spend a little bit of time let's just
- 00:23:50get clear kind of push our seats back if
- 00:23:52we need to from from the desk what is
- 00:23:55the vision that you hold for yourself
- 00:23:57and then often times I need to Niche
- 00:23:59that down don't do postc career yet
- 00:24:01we'll get to that soon but what's the
- 00:24:03vision you hold for yourself during this
- 00:24:06phase and it it invites imagination so
- 00:24:09it's using one's imagination to see a
- 00:24:11compelling later like so my vision for
- 00:24:15myself is is hooked around my purpose
- 00:24:18but they are they're quite different so
- 00:24:20my vision is a world where people
- 00:24:21flourish and I think that something that
- 00:24:24you just said in there for your vision
- 00:24:25is actually quite close to it I would
- 00:24:28not why we you invited me and I said yes
- 00:24:31there's something because because we
- 00:24:33we're there's a there's cooperation here
- 00:24:34yeah right and so when I when I first
- 00:24:37introd your work and my work both
- 00:24:39contribute there is a to the greater
- 00:24:41good to the same vision or similar
- 00:24:42Vision say your vision again uh I
- 00:24:45imagine a world so there's that I use
- 00:24:47imagination right because that's where
- 00:24:48that's where it exists that's how it
- 00:24:49happens right I imagine a world in which
- 00:24:51the vast majority I say vast majority
- 00:24:53because everyone is
- 00:24:54unrealistic everyone's G to be no that's
- 00:24:56not true right that's cool in which the
- 00:24:59vast majority of people wake up every
- 00:25:00single morning inspired feel safe
- 00:25:03wherever they are and end the day
- 00:25:05fulfilled by the work that they do now
- 00:25:07it doesn't tell you what I do doesn't
- 00:25:09tell you how I'm going to get there I've
- 00:25:10made certain bets like I believe
- 00:25:12leadership matters because I think um if
- 00:25:15we bet on and build and support and
- 00:25:18celebrate the leaders who are good
- 00:25:20leaders then we're more likely to build
- 00:25:22that world I've bet on something called
- 00:25:24human skills like we have hard skills
- 00:25:26the skills you need to do your job and
- 00:25:28human skills the skills you need to be a
- 00:25:29better human being you know and I want
- 00:25:31more human skills in the world I like to
- 00:25:34say that there's an entire section in
- 00:25:35the Bookshop called self-help but
- 00:25:36there's no section in the Bookshop
- 00:25:37called help others this is my this is my
- 00:25:39rub with the self-help industry like
- 00:25:421980 it was all about me yeah and now
- 00:25:44it's like it's for what reason I know I
- 00:25:46mean the only thing the self-help
- 00:25:47industry helped is itself the the I mean
- 00:25:50it started un like said like mid to late
- 00:25:511970s and if you look at the growth
- 00:25:53curve of the self-help industry it's
- 00:25:54huge and if it was working it should be
- 00:25:56in
- 00:25:57Decline that's a good take that's a
- 00:25:59really good take yeah that's right it it
- 00:26:02should put itself out of business yeah I
- 00:26:04mean the only argue you can make is that
- 00:26:06it would be generational in which case
- 00:26:07it should be relatively flat yeah that's
- 00:26:09really good right because you got to
- 00:26:10keep training somebody yeah oh my
- 00:26:13goodness when we were doing the
- 00:26:14publishing for the book they're like you
- 00:26:16know this is this is going to land in
- 00:26:17self-help I was like oh God I can't
- 00:26:19believe I'm doing this but is that where
- 00:26:21your stuff sits as well no my my I write
- 00:26:23leadership no I write philosophy books
- 00:26:25cleverly disguised as business books
- 00:26:27they really are they're in the business
- 00:26:29they're in the business section is that
- 00:26:30your it it makes its way into the
- 00:26:31selfhelp world which is fine but cousins
- 00:26:34at some point what's that they're
- 00:26:35cousins leadership and self-help the
- 00:26:37decisions I made were strategic right
- 00:26:39because if I put a book in self-help no
- 00:26:42one in business will read it but if I
- 00:26:44put a put a business a book in business
- 00:26:46or leadership then people in business
- 00:26:48and Leadership will read it and people
- 00:26:50in self-help will read it with your
- 00:26:51vision as clear as it is and you laid
- 00:26:53the beted on leadership MH and you want
- 00:26:56to skill up or add to the human skills
- 00:27:00do you have a handful of human skills
- 00:27:01that you would like to see modern
- 00:27:03leaders have more command of oh it's
- 00:27:06such a good question you know I think
- 00:27:08there's some real Basics the big one is
- 00:27:12listening we
- 00:27:13are really bad at listening you know ask
- 00:27:18any spouse how's your partner are they
- 00:27:20good listeners and I would say the
- 00:27:22majority would say room for improvement
- 00:27:25you know we're we're bad at listening at
- 00:27:27work um so I think listening is number
- 00:27:29one I think how to have effective
- 00:27:33confrontations you you're going to have
- 00:27:35disagreements on a regular basis that's
- 00:27:37okay and a lot of people are
- 00:27:39confrontation avoidant and it's not
- 00:27:42because they don't like confrontations
- 00:27:44because they don't know how to do it
- 00:27:45confrontation doesn't have to be
- 00:27:48confrontational it doesn't have to be
- 00:27:50aggressive um it can be quite inviting
- 00:27:53actually but something has bent me out
- 00:27:55of shape and I I want to tell you about
- 00:27:57it that's it's a skill how to have
- 00:27:59difficult conversations there's a good
- 00:28:01one I saw this after George Floyd where
- 00:28:03the number of leaders who the way they
- 00:28:05reacted to George Floyd was they did
- 00:28:06nothing not because they're bad people
- 00:28:09it's because they didn't have the skill
- 00:28:10of difficult conversations and so they
- 00:28:13were so afraid of saying the wrong thing
- 00:28:15or
- 00:28:16in igniting a situation or triggering
- 00:28:19someone that they just opted for nothing
- 00:28:22and it's a shame because those
- 00:28:24conversations needed to happen but they
- 00:28:26didn't have the skills or giving and
- 00:28:28receiving feedback there's another one
- 00:28:30right most of us like to give feedback
- 00:28:32the way we like to get feedback the way
- 00:28:34I like to get feedback just tell me
- 00:28:36please no don't give me a confront you
- 00:28:38know a feedback sandwich please because
- 00:28:41I know you're bullshitting me for the
- 00:28:42nice thing you're being serious about
- 00:28:43the shitty thing and you're bullshitting
- 00:28:44me about the nice thing just tell me
- 00:28:46right right so so the way I give
- 00:28:50feedback is the way I like to get it one
- 00:28:52of the turns out not everybody likes to
- 00:28:54get feedback that way so you got to
- 00:28:56learn how to adjust we we the feedback
- 00:28:58thing on coaching and so we'll say like
- 00:29:01we'll do this with most teams I work
- 00:29:02with whether business or sport is we'll
- 00:29:05have a bit of a round table like how do
- 00:29:07you want to be coached yeah and then so
- 00:29:09people like oh what do you mean well we
- 00:29:11all need to be coached it's so that's a
- 00:29:12basic assumption how do you want to be
- 00:29:15coached uh and there's some kind of
- 00:29:17gates public or private they go uh
- 00:29:20public yeah I don't that's fine I mean
- 00:29:23private might take too long oh so you
- 00:29:24want it now real time or do you want it
- 00:29:26after the meeting or do you want it you
- 00:29:28know within 24 hours so good yeah so we
- 00:29:30just walk them through a couple Gates
- 00:29:31good and then if they can tell their
- 00:29:33teammates that and then now there's that
- 00:29:36like a deeper partnering on how you're
- 00:29:37going to take care of each other towards
- 00:29:39the shared purpose and and and being
- 00:29:41inquisitive like that by the way goes in
- 00:29:43all you relationships and this is this
- 00:29:45is what I love about teaching these
- 00:29:47skills at work which is if we teach
- 00:29:48these skills at work what you get are
- 00:29:49way better teams and by the way better
- 00:29:52there's a difference between a team and
- 00:29:54people who work together there's
- 00:29:56difference between a team and people who
- 00:29:58play on the same you know organization a
- 00:30:00group and a team like they're not the
- 00:30:01same thing right yeah um and by the way
- 00:30:04sorry to interrupt teams are rare I I
- 00:30:06agree with you teams are rare for high
- 00:30:08performing teams are even more R for all
- 00:30:10the reasons we're talking about that's
- 00:30:11right the fascinating thing is high
- 00:30:12performing teams are not obsessed with
- 00:30:16winning until they're in the game right
- 00:30:19all the great coaches you know uh wooden
- 00:30:23Coach K the weird thing is none of them
- 00:30:25were obsessed with winning and yet they
- 00:30:27became the winning most coaches actually
- 00:30:29John Wooden said I I wish all of my
- 00:30:32friends I'm going to get this somewhat
- 00:30:34close I wish all of my friends to have
- 00:30:36one championship and all of my rivals to
- 00:30:39know what it feels like to have back
- 00:30:40toback in other words like it's heavy
- 00:30:44like it's really hard to manage and
- 00:30:46maintain someone's going to correct me
- 00:30:47on the exact quote there but that idea
- 00:30:50like wish you get one win yeah I want
- 00:30:52everyone to get a win you know but like
- 00:30:55back toback is really hard he was a
- 00:30:57relationship coach exactly and for and
- 00:30:59if you ask them they want their they
- 00:31:00want their their people to thrive and
- 00:31:02they want their people to create to
- 00:31:04build a team rather than just a series
- 00:31:06of high performing players I mean we
- 00:31:07know that dream teams aren't so dreamy
- 00:31:08we know that and the amazing thing is
- 00:31:11it's there's just for comp companies
- 00:31:19underinvestment right it's it's not a
- 00:31:22it's not a bet it's an investment right
- 00:31:24bets I put money down they spin the
- 00:31:26wheel I win or I lose right that's the
- 00:31:28financial year right or the quarter
- 00:31:31right take bets but investment is like
- 00:31:34well I'm going to put money in this
- 00:31:35equity and I'm going to hold on for 20
- 00:31:37years and we're going to see how it's
- 00:31:38going to go so I if I invest in my
- 00:31:40people you'll start to see growth in
- 00:31:42that investment but for some it's
- 00:31:44quicker and some it's slower and some
- 00:31:45will Thrive very quickly and some it
- 00:31:47might take a couple years but the point
- 00:31:49is you're creating magical teams of
- 00:31:51people who feel feel because they're
- 00:31:54human that somebody cares about them and
- 00:31:57cares about their personal growth and
- 00:31:58they reward you with effort and love and
- 00:32:01loyalty and patience and when things go
- 00:32:04wrong they stick with you because that's
- 00:32:07how Human Relationships work it's the
- 00:32:09same in our personal relationships if
- 00:32:11you make someone feel safe in your
- 00:32:12personal relationships and then you
- 00:32:13screw it up badly they will they will
- 00:32:16work with you to get through this grub M
- 00:32:18matter of fact infidelity according to
- 00:32:20research is not the reason marriages end
- 00:32:23right the big things are not the reason
- 00:32:25relationships end it's the accumulation
- 00:32:27of a Thousand Cuts yeah that's right you
- 00:32:29know and I'm not
- 00:32:30advocating for what I just said like no
- 00:32:33no but the point is is that a healthy
- 00:32:34relationship can some really and work
- 00:32:37through extreme stress whereas what
- 00:32:40appear to be healthy relationships end
- 00:32:42up breaking because of a of a Thousand
- 00:32:44Cuts that you didn't the tinsel strength
- 00:32:46wasn't there yeah you had a line in your
- 00:32:49book about rewarding the selfish High
- 00:32:51earner like that that's what management
- 00:32:54or coaches sometimes do is that we we
- 00:32:57throw money at them or we move them up
- 00:33:00an org chart or we give them a captain's
- 00:33:02whatever because they're the high earner
- 00:33:05High scorer but they're actually quite
- 00:33:06selfish individuals which when you have
- 00:33:09one of those on the team it's an
- 00:33:11interesting thing that can take place
- 00:33:13which is you'll keep him in the circle
- 00:33:16because he's earning for you or she is
- 00:33:18but the team will have to bond around
- 00:33:21that selfish whatever person is and then
- 00:33:25so that person never really feels like
- 00:33:26they're part of a team right because so
- 00:33:28now they're bit ostracized which
- 00:33:30inflames the condition right and the
- 00:33:32other let's call it n or 19 whatever the
- 00:33:34size of the group is could be 1900 it's
- 00:33:37no it's more it's more intimate I'm
- 00:33:39thinking sport right now is that they're
- 00:33:42they want that person on the team as
- 00:33:43long as they keep scoring but as soon as
- 00:33:45it gets wonky they don't we don't want
- 00:33:47them I've never met a coach yet that
- 00:33:50hasn't said to the selfish High earner
- 00:33:53once they let that person go say why
- 00:33:55didn't I do that sooner M why why are
- 00:33:58and the team us says what took you so
- 00:33:59long yeah why are you so scared why was
- 00:34:01I so scared so when you think of great
- 00:34:05teams what are some of the ways that you
- 00:34:07would go about helping a team be great
- 00:34:10so first and foremost if somebody has a
- 00:34:12performance issue um and likewise if
- 00:34:15they have a a personality issue so
- 00:34:17sometimes you have a high performer of
- 00:34:18low trust right that is as that is more
- 00:34:22dangerous than a high trust
- 00:34:24underperformer it was my number one gate
- 00:34:27for SEL section at the at the pro teams
- 00:34:29what that I would help with selection
- 00:34:31and it is the way that Navy Seals choose
- 00:34:33who advances in their organization too
- 00:34:35long but the the thing is well this is
- 00:34:37what we're talking about investment
- 00:34:38right which is which I love that framing
- 00:34:40investment versus bet I it has a totally
- 00:34:42different contour and both have value
- 00:34:44but just do with eyes wide open bets
- 00:34:47bets are for short term and there's
- 00:34:50nothing wrong with a bet but you can't
- 00:34:51you can't build a thriving
- 00:34:54long-term organization on just just
- 00:34:58yeah you know unless you're cheating
- 00:34:59which is organizations do too they all
- 00:35:01you know they cook the numbers to some
- 00:35:02degree you know wait how do you do that
- 00:35:05well anybody can have any metric they
- 00:35:06want oh any can be anybody can be number
- 00:35:08one it's like my favorite thing is like
- 00:35:10like Airlines like if go I I love
- 00:35:12Airline advertising it's my favorite
- 00:35:14thing in the world because it's like you
- 00:35:17know ranked number one it says on the ad
- 00:35:20and if you look at the fine print it's
- 00:35:21like based on a 5-year period of you
- 00:35:23know Global Airlines of about equal size
- 00:35:26like he like you know it's like the fine
- 00:35:29print is magical or or or or or
- 00:35:31financial advertising you know past
- 00:35:33performance is no guarantee of of of of
- 00:35:35f f ears future earnings and they like
- 00:35:38number one this and you always go to
- 00:35:39look at the fine they chose the
- 00:35:41conditions it's like everybody gets to
- 00:35:43pick their own metrics every company you
- 00:35:46I I love talking to CEOs I mean this is
- 00:35:47the finite mindset which is they say but
- 00:35:49Simon you you don't understand we we
- 00:35:51actually are number one and my answer is
- 00:35:54for now for now yes for now now like
- 00:35:58you're the best for now yeah like the
- 00:36:01Super Bowl was yesterday Kansas City is
- 00:36:03the best for now for now yeah and there
- 00:36:07was another metric hanging right off of
- 00:36:08that which was the Cowboys are are
- 00:36:11valued at 9 billion which is the highest
- 00:36:13valuation and I think Kansas City Chiefs
- 00:36:16are at 7 billion so they're they're
- 00:36:18they're almost there but when you look
- 00:36:19at total value you're suggesting that
- 00:36:22that is I'm suggesting that that is one
- 00:36:24way you could measure success if you
- 00:36:25wanted to and you're saying for now yeah
- 00:36:28I mean the the and to go back to your
- 00:36:30original question which is so how do you
- 00:36:33lead the people and so for me when
- 00:36:35someone's a high performer of low trust
- 00:36:37or a high trust person of uh low
- 00:36:40performance I've got an issue in both
- 00:36:42and first you coach you either coach the
- 00:36:45personality issue I mean I don't know
- 00:36:47who they role they may they may be an
- 00:36:48that is an option but they may
- 00:36:50have had bad role models or they left an
- 00:36:53organization that only incentivized
- 00:36:54performance above all else and that's
- 00:36:56what they got good at or I don't I just
- 00:36:58don't know their story and so I'm going
- 00:37:00to give them the benefit of the doubt
- 00:37:01that that they're teachable that they're
- 00:37:03coachable the underperformer same thing
- 00:37:05I don't know maybe there there's a skill
- 00:37:07Gap maybe I've got them in the wrong job
- 00:37:09maybe they're nervous there's a
- 00:37:11confidence issue but all of that is I
- 00:37:13can coach to both of those and for me
- 00:37:16the time to say I don't think this is
- 00:37:17going to work and I want you to find
- 00:37:18happiness somewhere else is if someone
- 00:37:21proves themselves to be uncoachable now
- 00:37:22of course there's always exceptions like
- 00:37:24you've got an amazing skill set and for
- 00:37:25a job I don't have you know or it's just
- 00:37:28you know sometimes it's time to to try
- 00:37:31something new because you're not happy
- 00:37:33and I can't help you you know but for
- 00:37:35the most part those tend to be the
- 00:37:37outliers everybody's coachable and the
- 00:37:39time for for me the time to ask somebody
- 00:37:41to leave the organization is if they
- 00:37:43provve themselves to be uncoachable we
- 00:37:45would say in sport we'd say we coach
- 00:37:47them until they can't or they won't yeah
- 00:37:50that's a that's a better way of putting
- 00:37:51it that was much that was much more
- 00:37:52succinct though I'm going to start
- 00:37:54saying it that way yeah
- 00:37:58it's much better but well the point is
- 00:38:00the same though is that there's some
- 00:38:02barrier that somebody gets through and
- 00:38:03they'll tell you when they don't want to
- 00:38:05be coached anymore or they just can't do
- 00:38:07the thing that is required for them to
- 00:38:09do but this is why good leadership
- 00:38:11matters because when you're creating an
- 00:38:12organization that has psychological
- 00:38:14safety built in what you're doing is
- 00:38:17you're creating conditions in which
- 00:38:19people can raise their hand and say I
- 00:38:20made a mistake I don't know what I'm
- 00:38:22doing I'm struggling um I've got issues
- 00:38:25at home my kids FL out of school and I
- 00:38:28it's affecting my work um like you you
- 00:38:31know you can bring that to work and and
- 00:38:34tell somebody whether it's a colleague
- 00:38:36or a or a leader and what you'll be met
- 00:38:38with is support right but if you create
- 00:38:41an organization that doesn't have
- 00:38:43psychological safety where it is
- 00:38:44performance at all costs no one is going
- 00:38:46to reveal any of those things because
- 00:38:48for fear that that makes them firable or
- 00:38:50it damages their promotability or they
- 00:38:53have personal issues like that that
- 00:38:54makes me sound weak you know you this
- 00:38:57ter ter vulnerability is becoming
- 00:38:59popular in business now but the word
- 00:39:01scares a lot of people I don't want to
- 00:39:03be vulnerable it doesn't mean weak right
- 00:39:06it means that I'm revealing shortcomings
- 00:39:09or uh mistakes or errors but I can do
- 00:39:12that with confidence and I think this is
- 00:39:13the thing that people Miss which is it
- 00:39:15I'll just give you an example right you
- 00:39:17can deliver any of these things with
- 00:39:19confidence versus lack of confidence so
- 00:39:20for example I need you to be vulnerable
- 00:39:24um I don't I don't I don't know how to
- 00:39:26read it p&l
- 00:39:29um so I don't know if I can I need I'm
- 00:39:32going to need help right this person's
- 00:39:35not going to last very long that is not
- 00:39:36confidence inspiring in anybody we're
- 00:39:38working with right you can have that
- 00:39:40same shortcoming in in in skill right
- 00:39:44which is hey I know you're G to find
- 00:39:46this hilarious but I never learned how
- 00:39:47to read a p&l if somebody could please
- 00:39:49just show me how to read a p&l I will
- 00:39:51learn it and we got no problems but for
- 00:39:52now we're not going anywhere until
- 00:39:53somebody can tell me how to read this
- 00:39:54damn document right in one case you're
- 00:39:57horribly insecure about the lack of
- 00:39:59skill and the other one you just own it
- 00:40:01and so being vulnerable doesn't mean
- 00:40:03being insecure being vulnerable just
- 00:40:06means I'm going to tell you something I
- 00:40:07don't know this is where I'm I keep
- 00:40:08going back to athletes and because
- 00:40:12that's your thing well yes and no but
- 00:40:14it's a base of where I draw much of my
- 00:40:16insight from so I was in Pro Sport for
- 00:40:19about 20 years and then I popped my head
- 00:40:20into big business 11 years ago and I was
- 00:40:23like how are they doing it yeah how are
- 00:40:27they doing doing it how are they
- 00:40:28grinding the way that they're grinding I
- 00:40:30mean there's no recovery in place M they
- 00:40:32don't the passion is not clear you don't
- 00:40:34have seasons yep there's no Seasons uh
- 00:40:37they're exhausted they're on double
- 00:40:38shifts every day two days every day like
- 00:40:41I couldn't believe it and so it was it
- 00:40:43felt like there was these lobs left and
- 00:40:45right for me to go get it was really fun
- 00:40:47one of the things that athletes do
- 00:40:48extraordinarily well is that they are
- 00:40:50able to manage the Gap and that Gap is
- 00:40:53between their current state of skill and
- 00:40:55the desired state state of skill
- 00:40:57and everybody knows what that Gap is and
- 00:40:59they got people that partner with them
- 00:41:01to be explicit and then develop a plan
- 00:41:04so for this scenario you just created
- 00:41:07everybody would know there's no secret
- 00:41:09yeah so the vulnerability is actually
- 00:41:11the opportunity where where we can see
- 00:41:13you suck at that yeah pretending you
- 00:41:15don't that's right it's silly yeah right
- 00:41:18please stop that and by the way we're
- 00:41:20actually going to take you out of
- 00:41:21reading spreadsheets and put you over
- 00:41:23here because you're a great Storyteller
- 00:41:25and so we're going to find a way to
- 00:41:26figure this out together we don't put
- 00:41:28athletes in compromised positions look
- 00:41:31lying hiding and faking unfortunately is
- 00:41:32how a lot of people are forced to come
- 00:41:33to work ly hiding and faking yeah lying
- 00:41:36hiding and faking is the way a lot of
- 00:41:38people are forced to come to work
- 00:41:40because the reward and incentive
- 00:41:42structure or Worse the punishment
- 00:41:43structure if you reveal any of these
- 00:41:46things you you risk losing your job or
- 00:41:48you risk getting unpromoted or somebody
- 00:41:51else promoting ahead of you because you
- 00:41:53know they're faking it better than you
- 00:41:54are so you know the the Great teams and
- 00:41:58you know this which is the one of the
- 00:42:01good things about sports is we all know
- 00:42:04there's something wrong because you
- 00:42:06can't hit the ball right like I can I
- 00:42:08can see it right where you know business
- 00:42:11we can lie hide and fake a lot easier
- 00:42:13than we can in sports so Sports you
- 00:42:15can't get away with it so what we do is
- 00:42:17we don't fire them we help them work on
- 00:42:19that thing and first we help them get
- 00:42:21their confidence back right like a slump
- 00:42:23is a terrible thing it's mainly
- 00:42:24psychological because they've got the
- 00:42:26skills correct so so every every sports
- 00:42:29team knows there a psychological
- 00:42:30component and sometimes there's a skills
- 00:42:32component that's right and yet in
- 00:42:33business we just scream and yell at
- 00:42:34people or fire them because they're
- 00:42:36underperformers or not promote them but
- 00:42:38we don't recognize there's a
- 00:42:40psychological component and sometimes
- 00:42:41there's a skill component usually it's
- 00:42:43the former so good leaders good leaders
- 00:42:46know that they do know that good leaders
- 00:42:48know that I I've been saying that modern
- 00:42:50leadership will be marked by the ability
- 00:42:52to apply basic psychology and
- 00:42:55so that's what I'm and the key word
- 00:42:57there is basic basic this is not
- 00:42:59Advanced anything no right this is not
- 00:43:02Psychotherapy no this is this is psych
- 00:43:03101 that's exactly right basic functions
- 00:43:05of a human being that's right if
- 00:43:07somebody feels seen her and understood
- 00:43:09they will freaking love you forever okay
- 00:43:11do it again seen if somebody feels seen
- 00:43:14heard and understood okay I got to use
- 00:43:16that one now they will love you forever
- 00:43:17that's really you're so right well
- 00:43:19that's it yeah I exist well you know
- 00:43:21that I'll get the numbers wrong but the
- 00:43:22there's data that shows that when
- 00:43:24somebody's ignored at work right there's
- 00:43:26something like 80% disengagement I don't
- 00:43:28remember the number but it's exorbitant
- 00:43:30if somebody gets yelled at once right
- 00:43:34it's something like 40% disengagement
- 00:43:36whatever it is and if somebody's given
- 00:43:37one compliment for one skill that
- 00:43:39they've got it's something like 7%
- 00:43:41disengagement in other words getting
- 00:43:43yelled at is actually better than being
- 00:43:46ignored because at least you know I
- 00:43:47exist and that's I mean that's hilarious
- 00:43:50it's terrible you know that's how bad it
- 00:43:52is terrible yeah if you were to design
- 00:43:55a a bit of a tring protocol or a basic
- 00:43:59capabilities requirement for leaders
- 00:44:02what would be the three to five things
- 00:44:04you said listening we we talked about
- 00:44:06them I think there's I think listening
- 00:44:08is the big one um and listening is a is
- 00:44:11a compound skill right because it
- 00:44:13requires patience it requires empathy
- 00:44:15like you can't just be a good listener
- 00:44:17without being curious and like like it's
- 00:44:19a it's a compound skill it's more
- 00:44:21difficult than it sounds I'm kind of
- 00:44:23cheating cuz I said one but it's really
- 00:44:26like SI you know and like I said before
- 00:44:28I think uh difficult conversations is a
- 00:44:31huge one effective confrontation is a
- 00:44:33huge one and for me had to given receive
- 00:44:35feedback is the other one I had a
- 00:44:37colleague who um couldn't take feedback
- 00:44:40well like I would I would give her
- 00:44:42feedback and it it sometimes it would
- 00:44:45deteriorate into absolute shouting match
- 00:44:48right I mean and you you something
- 00:44:51really has to escalate for that to
- 00:44:53happen right and what I was doing was
- 00:44:56giving feedback the way way I like to
- 00:44:57get it right turns out it wasn't working
- 00:45:00out very well and so I did what you
- 00:45:02suggest when with your coaching which is
- 00:45:04I interrupted literally midf fight and I
- 00:45:07was like this is clearly not working can
- 00:45:09you just tell me how you want to be get
- 00:45:11feedback like I'll do it anyway you want
- 00:45:14right and what she told me was she goes
- 00:45:17I need you to prepare me right just you
- 00:45:20can either say can I give you some
- 00:45:22difficult feedback now and it either say
- 00:45:24yes or no or I need you to schedule it
- 00:45:27in my calendar like we're gonna have a
- 00:45:28feedback SE feedback session on Thursday
- 00:45:31at 3 o' are you available right and as
- 00:45:34long as I did that it was astonishing
- 00:45:37how much she could take she could take
- 00:45:39more blunt and hard to hear feedback
- 00:45:42than almost anybody on the team as long
- 00:45:45as I prepared her and scheduled it but
- 00:45:48that's because I asked yeah and where's
- 00:45:50where is and remember I'm in the
- 00:45:52position of authority so and there's
- 00:45:54lots of us who are in that leadership
- 00:45:56position
- 00:45:57which means I've got somebody who's not
- 00:45:58taking feedback because I'm not giving
- 00:46:00it the way that they can hear it but
- 00:46:03I've now created a narrative in my head
- 00:46:06of they can't take feedback and they're
- 00:46:09a problem child and it goes down they're
- 00:46:12an
- 00:46:13underperformer the the corruption of the
- 00:46:15of the power dynamic because you get to
- 00:46:17pick the narrative and they're subjected
- 00:46:20to your narrative right right they have
- 00:46:22to mold around your there's you have to
- 00:46:24mold around your incompetence and I
- 00:46:26think that happens frightfully too often
- 00:46:29yeah and the one thing that's incredibly
- 00:46:32dangerous in an organization is Gossip
- 00:46:35right and I know a company that gossip
- 00:46:38is a fireable offense which I love right
- 00:46:41we know that employees sometimes get
- 00:46:44together after work and vent about their
- 00:46:45boss and and and healthy venting I think
- 00:46:48is very important you should be able to
- 00:46:50vent and complain about work I think
- 00:46:51that's but creating narratives about
- 00:46:53somebody like the number of people that
- 00:46:55tell me they have a toxic I'm like the
- 00:46:57real examples of real toxicity are
- 00:46:59actually much lower than we think you
- 00:47:02know I'll give you a perfect example
- 00:47:03it's because it's all of narrative right
- 00:47:05so I went for a walk with a friend of
- 00:47:06mine who was struggling at work and this
- 00:47:08is how the conversation began um my boss
- 00:47:11is a horrible person she's a horrible
- 00:47:15person and she goes on to tell me you
- 00:47:17know like the whole story of what's
- 00:47:18going on at work and I interrupted her I
- 00:47:19go wait wait wait wait she's a horrible
- 00:47:21person she's a horrible person I'm like
- 00:47:23so does she abuse her children and kick
- 00:47:25her dog no okay so we don't know that
- 00:47:28she's a horrible person we know that
- 00:47:30she's a horrible leader okay that's all
- 00:47:32we know yeah that's narrative yeah
- 00:47:34that's really good but we do it in
- 00:47:35leadership as well right a group of
- 00:47:37leaders get together for their
- 00:47:38leadership meeting or whatever right and
- 00:47:42somebody's name comes up who's on the
- 00:47:44team and somebody says oh he's so lazy
- 00:47:48my God that guy is such an idiot right
- 00:47:51oh God freaking Debbie down there right
- 00:47:54and now that's the narrative among all
- 00:47:56leaders leadership and so every time
- 00:47:58that person's name comes up somebody
- 00:47:59still go I know why he's not hit hacking
- 00:48:01it lazy right now all leadership is
- 00:48:05going to treat that person as lazy as
- 00:48:08stupid as disengaged as not
- 00:48:11caring and and so it's very important
- 00:48:15and we're all guilty of it no one we've
- 00:48:16all done it there's there's a gine
- 00:48:18healthy venting and forming narratives
- 00:48:20about people and or their motivations
- 00:48:23and the reality is we don't know and so
- 00:48:26it's very important if you find yourself
- 00:48:27in a group of people that somebody
- 00:48:30starts creating a negative narrative
- 00:48:33about someone um somebody has to
- 00:48:35interrupt it go that may be the case or
- 00:48:39they're
- 00:48:40struggling we're not leading them well
- 00:48:42we're not coaching them properly we
- 00:48:43haven't given them any feedback like I
- 00:48:45know an organization that is so passive
- 00:48:47aggressive everybody's so nice
- 00:48:48everybody's so nice and if you're
- 00:48:50struggling on a team no one will tell
- 00:48:52you what you're doing wrong they'll just
- 00:48:54move you to a different Group which is
- 00:48:56such a disservice to someone so someone
- 00:48:57actually ends up having this crap
- 00:48:59middling career not because they're dumb
- 00:49:01or bad it's because no one's ever given
- 00:49:03them the feedback to improve horrible
- 00:49:07now it goes the other way around as well
- 00:49:09and you touched upon this before which
- 00:49:12is you can overdo the positive narrative
- 00:49:14as well you heroize somebody oh oh my
- 00:49:19God she's the best oh my God she's a
- 00:49:21genius I don't know how we ever got by
- 00:49:24without her just she'll take care of
- 00:49:26everything every and the problem is now
- 00:49:28we all start treating that person as the
- 00:49:31hero on the team and it can go multiple
- 00:49:34ways sometimes they start believing the
- 00:49:36press and egos get blown out or um
- 00:49:40sometimes um they make a mistake and we
- 00:49:43don't actually know how to give them the
- 00:49:44feedback because now we're deathly
- 00:49:46afraid of them leaving or getting upset
- 00:49:48because we've made them to Heroes and
- 00:49:50the reality is it is very dangerous to
- 00:49:52create heroes or villains on your team
- 00:49:53that is all narrative very cool now I'm
- 00:49:57not saying don't celebrate people I'm
- 00:49:58not give people harsh feedback but if
- 00:50:00there's a a band if there's a ceiling in
- 00:50:02a floor just narrow it down a little bit
- 00:50:04stay away from from from the Sun you're
- 00:50:07Icarus and stay away from the floor
- 00:50:09there's a devil down there you know come
- 00:50:11come closer to to the medium give people
- 00:50:13credit what they're do help people get
- 00:50:15feedback when they need it but there's
- 00:50:17no heroes or villains those are very
- 00:50:19rare on a team they exist they
- 00:50:21absolutely exist but be but be very wary
- 00:50:24I like for a lot of reasons what you're
- 00:50:26talking about one is you're talking
- 00:50:28about loving the person and coaching the
- 00:50:30behavior yeah whether it's a human skill
- 00:50:32or a technical skill or whatever um I
- 00:50:35love that and I also when when I was
- 00:50:38with the Seattle Seahawks when we're at
- 00:50:39our height when we are at our best when
- 00:50:42our noses were pointed in the same
- 00:50:44direction together your your beaks it
- 00:50:46was awesome and one of the thing
- 00:50:49beaks I mean I
- 00:50:52know it was fast though too it was
- 00:50:54pretty good so when did the the things
- 00:50:56that was taking place is we were very
- 00:50:58clear that in the hallways we were never
- 00:51:01going to never is a too big of a word um
- 00:51:03we were great about not talking about
- 00:51:05somebody that wasn't amongst us yeah and
- 00:51:08it was a we were disciplined we would
- 00:51:11call on discipline if that person's not
- 00:51:13here like just you know keep it moving
- 00:51:15like we don't need to say it to their
- 00:51:17face be able to confront them if it was
- 00:51:19hard you know and what ends up happening
- 00:51:21is that people start to feel really safe
- 00:51:24yeah because they don't they're not
- 00:51:25worried about what's happening in that
- 00:51:27conversation over there like is that
- 00:51:28about me yeah yeah it's really and by
- 00:51:30the way that's a very good standard
- 00:51:32which is in private conversations that
- 00:51:35you're actually not going to say
- 00:51:36anything about somebody that you
- 00:51:37wouldn't say to you wouldn't look
- 00:51:38somebody in the face and say you're
- 00:51:39stupid or lazy you wouldn't do it um
- 00:51:42that person struggling totally
- 00:51:43legitimate you know um I'm worried about
- 00:51:46her totally legitimate right but I think
- 00:51:48that that is a great standard if you
- 00:51:50want to know where the the floor and the
- 00:51:51ceiling are if you wouldn't say it to
- 00:51:52their face then you're outside of the
- 00:51:54band and I like the in the um the tool
- 00:51:57that you provided which is let's say you
- 00:51:59and I are talking we we've slipped to a
- 00:52:01lower version of ourselves we're talking
- 00:52:03about suie and and Stuart jumps in and
- 00:52:05says wait that I don't know that how did
- 00:52:08you put that that phrase that might be
- 00:52:10the case oh that is possible that is
- 00:52:12possible yet we don't know if they're
- 00:52:14struggling we don't know if they have
- 00:52:15the right resources if we're Mis
- 00:52:16coaching them whatever it's it's really
- 00:52:18easy which is just come up with 10 or 15
- 00:52:20other options yeah and but which it
- 00:52:22could be the interruption is that all
- 00:52:24might be true or that might be how say
- 00:52:26say it one more time to me that might be
- 00:52:28true that might be true yeah but like I
- 00:52:29don't dispel the initial thing I said
- 00:52:32they could be lazy or maybe or maybe
- 00:52:35yeah it's the or maybe it's the or maybe
- 00:52:37it's the doubt that's right yeah just
- 00:52:39it's the it's or maybe that's a good
- 00:52:41Clause so I'm not shutting anybody down
- 00:52:43yeah I'm simply adding options to the
- 00:52:45list you know what's funny is like I
- 00:52:47wish my wife was listening to us right
- 00:52:48now because she'd say you drive me crazy
- 00:52:52with always taking a Counterpoint you
- 00:52:54know I like the intellectual exercise of
- 00:52:56the maybe and sometimes the Simplicity
- 00:52:59needs to be that Bell needs to be wrong
- 00:53:01which is like yeah actually they did
- 00:53:03steal the $10 from my dresser whatever
- 00:53:04it might be you know like time and place
- 00:53:06right right time yeah right time and
- 00:53:08place oh my God so all right very cool
- 00:53:11you also in want some more we can talk
- 00:53:12more practical stuff too yeah I love
- 00:53:14practical like I think we all do and
- 00:53:16people from sports like practical yeah
- 00:53:17so okay I'm just who that was a little
- 00:53:20bit was that a jab it was a little jab
- 00:53:22maybe no it was a compliment was it a
- 00:53:23compliment 100% some of us like the
- 00:53:25invisible world some of us like but we
- 00:53:28live in a tangible world we some worlds
- 00:53:31are invisible remember those metrics we
- 00:53:32talked about like everybody loves a
- 00:53:34metric we do like metrics so like I want
- 00:53:37to I want to stand on a scale to know
- 00:53:38I'm losing weight just look in the
- 00:53:40mirror is not enough yes so I'll just
- 00:53:42wax philosophical based on some of the
- 00:53:43stuff we talked about so difficult
- 00:53:44conversations starting a difficult like
- 00:53:46it is a skill it's a practi practice
- 00:53:49skill but it's actually not that
- 00:53:52difficult to start first of all I always
- 00:53:55like to ask permission especially if
- 00:53:57it's with one person like may I have a
- 00:53:59difficult conversation with you now I I
- 00:54:01need to have one can we do it now
- 00:54:02because then they can go yes or in an
- 00:54:05hour yeah or tomorrow like I like
- 00:54:07letting people know it's coming that's
- 00:54:09cool right for some people that creates
- 00:54:11incredible anxiety but it'll be it'll be
- 00:54:13really well that's up to them yeah but I
- 00:54:14your earlier scenario was great because
- 00:54:16she knows herself that's what she wanted
- 00:54:18correct but for some like I like to
- 00:54:19start with can I can I just have a
- 00:54:21difficult or an uncom and slightly lower
- 00:54:23than difficult is uncomfortable
- 00:54:23uncomfortable like can I have an
- 00:54:24uncomfortable convers I like challenging
- 00:54:26have a chall birs of a Feather right I
- 00:54:29need to talk to you about X um I don't
- 00:54:33know how to do this um I'm probably
- 00:54:35going to get some of this wrong I might
- 00:54:38say the wrong thing please just bear
- 00:54:40with me because us having this
- 00:54:43conversation is more important than me
- 00:54:45doing it
- 00:54:46perfectly is that o is can is that okay
- 00:54:49can you help me with that and that way
- 00:54:50because we all do these things we do
- 00:54:52them in our personal lives when we're
- 00:54:53arguing with a loved one or we do them
- 00:54:55at work which is do say the wrong thing
- 00:54:57and they will like white on rice they
- 00:55:00will attach themselves to the thing we
- 00:55:01got wrong and it's very difficult to
- 00:55:03unattach but when you set the ground
- 00:55:05rules at the beginning like I might
- 00:55:06screw some of this up but bear with me
- 00:55:08I'm trying to get to this point right
- 00:55:11then you can you get permission to to
- 00:55:13backpedal yeah you dilute some of that
- 00:55:16assumed or ascribed power you know and
- 00:55:18it it is one of the again culprits to
- 00:55:20the or traditional org chart is like
- 00:55:24when you move higher up the org then
- 00:55:25it's easier to have difficult
- 00:55:26conversations because you determin and
- 00:55:29this it's one of it's like such a cheat
- 00:55:31because it it it can
- 00:55:33shortcut real skills yeah so what you
- 00:55:36just described are eloquent um there's
- 00:55:39empathy involved there's humanness and
- 00:55:42you're it's it's human to human yeah and
- 00:55:44this is not easy for me too and let's is
- 00:55:47not try to be perfect let's try to work
- 00:55:48through something yeah yeah it's it's
- 00:55:50it's beautiful what you just did it's
- 00:55:51human to human and I think that's what
- 00:55:53we forget it's called a company it's
- 00:55:54literally a group of human beings M you
- 00:55:56know we are in company I can hear my
- 00:55:59anxious part of me okay so now this is
- 00:56:01like business person business person the
- 00:56:03anxiety in me is like this is by the way
- 00:56:06everything we're talking about feels at
- 00:56:08home
- 00:56:09this 100% I hope that everything we're
- 00:56:12talking about we're building here at
- 00:56:13finding Mastery that being said there's
- 00:56:16another part which is watching the p&l
- 00:56:19like you know making sure that uh we are
- 00:56:22laying the right bets and the right
- 00:56:24Investments both both matter both matter
- 00:56:26right if we run out of money we run out
- 00:56:28of time to do this thing together and so
- 00:56:31that's a part that I can hear probably
- 00:56:34some of the other anxious folks they're
- 00:56:36like okay great you guys are
- 00:56:39psychologically safe really nice people
- 00:56:43people are probably great teammates to
- 00:56:45each other but are you executing in high
- 00:56:47octane environments are you performing
- 00:56:49when it
- 00:56:50matters how do you how do you get to
- 00:56:53that so I've made that mistake and I've
- 00:56:55I've gone to too far down oh my god I've
- 00:56:57created an art project or hippie commune
- 00:56:59yeah you know and at the end of the day
- 00:57:01it's not an art project or a hippie
- 00:57:02commune it's a business but for me um
- 00:57:06I'm very clear on what the business is
- 00:57:07right this is this goes to the point of
- 00:57:09purpose is the purpose of a business to
- 00:57:11make money no according to Milton
- 00:57:14Freedman yes but that's gotten us to a
- 00:57:15lot of trouble the past years you've
- 00:57:17been loud about this yeah you know the
- 00:57:20the purpose of a business is to advance
- 00:57:22something and money is the fuel right
- 00:57:25just like is the purpose of a car to buy
- 00:57:27more gas no the purpose of a car is to
- 00:57:29go somewhere and the gas helps us get
- 00:57:31there well money is gas that's what it
- 00:57:33does it provides energy and so yes I
- 00:57:37want it to have gas now does it have to
- 00:57:38have gas at any expense no of course not
- 00:57:41I'm not going to mow people over to get
- 00:57:43to a gas station right right so we know
- 00:57:46that there's ethics that have to be
- 00:57:47included right I want to kill people to
- 00:57:49get gas although some companies you it
- 00:57:52does get out of balance ethical fading
- 00:57:54different conversation but the problem
- 00:57:56is is most companies obsess about the
- 00:57:58gas because it's the easiest thing to
- 00:58:00see um and they obsess about the gas
- 00:58:02because they don't actually have an
- 00:58:03articulated Vision you know to be the
- 00:58:05best most admired blah blah blah value
- 00:58:08value that none of that is Vision that
- 00:58:10is uninspiring pum or at best a
- 00:58:13long-term goal and it's usually about
- 00:58:15you and real vision is about us it's an
- 00:58:18invitation you and I discovered that our
- 00:58:20Visions are actually inclusive of each
- 00:58:21other that's right right great vision
- 00:58:22includes other companies if they want to
- 00:58:24join in or other people you can love a
- 00:58:26company's vision and not do business
- 00:58:27with them right like I celebrate
- 00:58:29companies that I don't necessarily buy
- 00:58:31their products because I love their
- 00:58:33Vision I love what they stand for for me
- 00:58:35Patagonia is one of those like are you
- 00:58:37familiar with their brand of course yeah
- 00:58:38I love Patagonia I don't buy it like I'm
- 00:58:41same with you but I I will support it
- 00:58:42and celebrate it and I'm probably
- 00:58:44offered them more free PR than you know
- 00:58:46than like just I I've written about them
- 00:58:49I've I've got one vest I advocate for
- 00:58:51them I think I I think I might have one
- 00:58:53vest yeah right yeah um yeah probably
- 00:58:56everybody does and when I say might cuz
- 00:58:58that was the last time I wore it yeah
- 00:58:59you know yeah but I think I have it
- 00:59:01because I'm like I should have one you
- 00:59:03know they're doing good in the world
- 00:59:04they're doing good in the world I should
- 00:59:05show some love let's go back to purpose
- 00:59:08um for just a moment is that something I
- 00:59:10learned from S I feel sorry for anybody
- 00:59:12who's forced to listen to us because our
- 00:59:14ability to meander off topic is for me
- 00:59:17magical listen we're going to we're
- 00:59:18going to land this bird on the perch
- 00:59:20here there's there's a I mean this is a
- 00:59:23too much this is no I me I appreciate I
- 00:59:25appreciate dad humor and a good pun all
- 00:59:28right so you're just egging me on now
- 00:59:29yeah so okay uh purpose I learned this
- 00:59:31from Sati Nadella the company is very
- 00:59:34clear on their purpose yeah okay and
- 00:59:37then he did
- 00:59:39some beautiful iido is he said okay
- 00:59:42right what we actually want to do is we
- 00:59:45want to have Microsoft's purpose be in
- 00:59:48service of each of our employee purpose
- 00:59:52that Judo and aido is radical yeah so in
- 00:59:55other words the 200,000 that are are are
- 00:59:58working here make sure you know your
- 00:59:59purpose because Microsoft could just be
- 01:00:01the greatest platform such and such to
- 01:00:04fuel your purpose by the way it's m it's
- 01:00:06mutual right I want when it's at its
- 01:00:08best I want companies to know their
- 01:00:09purpose and I want individuals to know
- 01:00:10their why as well because if I know my
- 01:00:13why and and you are clear on what your
- 01:00:15why is not some purpose
- 01:00:17statement that you put on your website
- 01:00:19because somebody if you're really
- 01:00:20somebody in marketing told you you had
- 01:00:22to like true purpose that you actually
- 01:00:23make decisions with right that used to
- 01:00:26filter decisions if if a company's
- 01:00:28crystal clear and it's why and employees
- 01:00:29are crystal clear in their why what you
- 01:00:31get is somebody goes oh my God you
- 01:00:33working here helps me fulfill my cause I
- 01:00:36I I I will work here forever and the
- 01:00:39company looks at you and says oh my God
- 01:00:40your why helps us Advance ours we want
- 01:00:42you here forever we love you now we're
- 01:00:44playing the infinite game the right and
- 01:00:46and so 100% however there's a finite
- 01:00:49game inside of it I love that you did
- 01:00:50that yeah and that's and that's totally
- 01:00:52fine and there's good days bad days
- 01:00:53right but what you said before is like
- 01:00:55well what's the role of and and there's
- 01:00:57nothing wrong with an honest
- 01:00:59conversation going and and by the way I
- 01:01:01think the mistake that a lot of leaders
- 01:01:03make is they think they have to have
- 01:01:04everything sorted out in their head
- 01:01:06before they have the conversation with
- 01:01:08somebody I find that sometimes
- 01:01:09presenting a half baked cake is
- 01:01:12sometimes more valuable so for
- 01:01:14example I'm in a situation and I don't
- 01:01:17know what to do I'm going to tell you
- 01:01:19where I'm stuck like you you belong in
- 01:01:22this organization you're a cultural
- 01:01:23contributor I love that you believe in
- 01:01:25our CA
- 01:01:26you've been great I'm struggling because
- 01:01:28you you work in an area that is directly
- 01:01:30a revenue producer and that revenue is
- 01:01:32the fuel for our movement and we've had
- 01:01:35so many quarters of underperformance
- 01:01:37we've tried coaching and you've been
- 01:01:39receptive to coaching I got to give you
- 01:01:41credit but but I'm really struggling
- 01:01:44because at one point I want to support
- 01:01:47you but at another point I also have to
- 01:01:48make sure that this movement continues
- 01:01:51to be fueled and your and your team's
- 01:01:55performance is directly impacting that I
- 01:01:56need you to work with me to figure this
- 01:01:58out and it becomes a conversation that's
- 01:02:00really and people and what we're doing
- 01:02:03in that conversation is we're giving
- 01:02:04someone agency yeah and and you you know
- 01:02:06the the research on how people feel at
- 01:02:08work about control you know about this
- 01:02:09stuff so there's in the 1970s um there's
- 01:02:13a bunch of social scientists that did um
- 01:02:15some work called The White Hall studies
- 01:02:16you know the whiteall studies I do oh
- 01:02:18you of course you do you have a PhD in
- 01:02:19this this is really good yeah was
- 01:02:23like I was about to mansplain the white
- 01:02:24hole studies to you
- 01:02:27okay so the whiteall studies for those
- 01:02:29who aren't phds in Psychology they there
- 01:02:31was this theory that these social
- 01:02:34scientists had in the 1970s um of this
- 01:02:36thing called executive stress syndrome
- 01:02:38the theory being that as you make your
- 01:02:40way up the corporate ladder you suffer
- 01:02:42more stress because there's more
- 01:02:43pressure the stakes are higher etc etc
- 01:02:45etc right more on your on your plate
- 01:02:48more on your shoulders and so they
- 01:02:49wanted to understand executive stress
- 01:02:51and they did it in the halls of
- 01:02:52government in the UK in whiteall because
- 01:02:54that way they could account for for even
- 01:02:56healthare because in private sector you
- 01:02:59you kind account for even healthare so
- 01:03:01that's why they did in government and
- 01:03:02what they discovered was the complete
- 01:03:03opposite which is as you make your way
- 01:03:05up the ranks your stress goes down and
- 01:03:09it's not because of the pressures it's
- 01:03:11because as you make your way up the
- 01:03:12ranks you have more agency Define Agency
- 01:03:15for us you get a little more control as
- 01:03:17to what your day looks like as to what
- 01:03:19meetings you can say yes or no to you
- 01:03:21get a little more control as to how you
- 01:03:23do things and if you're really good
- 01:03:25something
- 01:03:26if you're really good at something you
- 01:03:28can be the expert in that and if you're
- 01:03:29really bad at something you can
- 01:03:30literally say I'm never doing that when
- 01:03:32you're junior you have none of those
- 01:03:34luxuries you're told when to be
- 01:03:35somewhere you're told how to do
- 01:03:36something you have to be good at
- 01:03:38everything because that's your job when
- 01:03:39you're junior which is really difficult
- 01:03:41right and so they found that the most
- 01:03:43Junior employees not only have the
- 01:03:45highest levels of stress but with high
- 01:03:48stress you get higher rates of some
- 01:03:50cancers diabetes and heart disease so
- 01:03:52people are dying of heart attacks more
- 01:03:54often at Junior levels not senior levels
- 01:03:57right which I find fascinating this is
- 01:04:00an awesome finding because agency is a
- 01:04:03word that um if you don't double click
- 01:04:05on the meaning yeah you know the way I
- 01:04:07operationalize agency is like oh yeah I
- 01:04:10choose you know like I have a sense of
- 01:04:14power I have a sense of autonomy agency
- 01:04:16and autonomy and efficacy those three
- 01:04:18words get thrown around a bit but I I
- 01:04:20I'm I get to choose I get some choice
- 01:04:22and so if I have a difficult situation
- 01:04:24that might include your employment right
- 01:04:27right which is existential right I want
- 01:04:31you very much involved in that
- 01:04:33conversation and it's not a threat it's
- 01:04:35a conversation about a about a situation
- 01:04:38that I'm in and as the leader and the
- 01:04:40person with the decision making power in
- 01:04:42this
- 01:04:43situation I don't know what to do it's
- 01:04:46cool right and so I'm going to tell you
- 01:04:48that I'm stuck and don't know what to do
- 01:04:49rather than leave you out of it and make
- 01:04:51my decision you you subjected to my
- 01:04:53decision and I find that to be an
- 01:04:55amazing to give agency one of the best
- 01:04:58bosses I ever wait wait I want to yeah
- 01:05:00don't forget the story okay I'm not sure
- 01:05:03we can give it not sure we can give
- 01:05:05agency somebody has to oh I see what you
- 01:05:08mean you can create the condition you
- 01:05:10can allow the conditions but somebody
- 01:05:12has to be able to step in the ring I
- 01:05:13think they we already have
- 01:05:16agency and the conditions even if
- 01:05:19they're unfavorable the person is either
- 01:05:21going
- 01:05:22to oh I see the look see the look go on
- 01:05:26go on cuz this is now getting
- 01:05:27complicated yeah it's it's multifaceted
- 01:05:30let me give you a simple tell me the
- 01:05:31scenario and then and then I'll and then
- 01:05:33I'll throw a wrench in the works or some
- 01:05:35grease some grease there's a bird
- 01:05:38analogy in there maybe a worm yeah it's
- 01:05:42getting so bad all right so I'm
- 01:05:44optimists some more often show up for
- 01:05:46meetings late because they always think
- 01:05:48they'll get there on time and as an
- 01:05:49optimist I'm habitually within the
- 01:05:5115-minute Rage of acceptability but but
- 01:05:53usually above start time
- 01:05:56um I am fundamentally an optimistic uh
- 01:05:58earned though and I know that you've got
- 01:06:00a point of view on optimism which I
- 01:06:01can't wait to so so just just keeping
- 01:06:03the warm analogy because you reminded me
- 01:06:05so I once showed up for a meeting late
- 01:06:07and as I walked in just a few minutes
- 01:06:08late somebody put their head up and very
- 01:06:10aggressively said you know Simon the
- 01:06:11early bird gets the worm and I looked up
- 01:06:14and said the early worm gets eaten and
- 01:06:16then I sat
- 01:06:17down sorry God so agency oh agency so
- 01:06:22letting letting was or not letting but
- 01:06:24um providing agency so I'm going to use
- 01:06:27the letting word as an analogy or as a
- 01:06:29crosswalk is that uh reporters up at the
- 01:06:32Seattle Seahawks would say back to us um
- 01:06:35coach Carol and I what we're the culture
- 01:06:37we're trying to create along with all of
- 01:06:38the other coaches and athletes would say
- 01:06:41wow you guys really let people be
- 01:06:44themselves here no we're not letting
- 01:06:46anyone be themselves we're trying to
- 01:06:49understand who they are and then
- 01:06:50celebrating all of that so it's not
- 01:06:53letting it's a very controlling word and
- 01:06:56you know why letting is fair because
- 01:07:00it's not it's I I agree with you and I
- 01:07:02understand what you're saying about your
- 01:07:03organization but the reason the word
- 01:07:05letting is fair is because those
- 01:07:07reporters work in an organization where
- 01:07:09they are not allowed to be themselves
- 01:07:11which is wild whereas the opposite of
- 01:07:12letting right so they are disallowed to
- 01:07:14be themselves and so edited and they are
- 01:07:17edited they are pushed back they are
- 01:07:18stomped on they are not seen they're not
- 01:07:20heard so they work for newspapers and TV
- 01:07:23stations and radio stations so when they
- 01:07:25say boy you let them beat themselves
- 01:07:28that's long they're speaking of longing
- 01:07:30that's right so it's a fair statement it
- 01:07:33is but we wanted to course correct we're
- 01:07:34not letting someone be themselves we are
- 01:07:37disciplined in our approach to know who
- 01:07:39they are and then celebrate it same with
- 01:07:41I don't think we give agency we we can
- 01:07:45we can take it we can but that's the
- 01:07:47problem like we and we can create
- 01:07:49conditions that make it very very hard
- 01:07:51for somebody to flex their agency yeah
- 01:07:54but it's kind of like empowerment we
- 01:07:56don't give
- 01:07:58empowerment I don't Empower you you have
- 01:08:01power so here's the reason I'm stressed
- 01:08:04with your line of thinking stressed
- 01:08:06acutely stressed no minor minor
- 01:08:08uncomfortable mhm the reason can we have
- 01:08:11this conversation what's that can we
- 01:08:12have this I a cou and tell you about my
- 01:08:15childhood no no here's why I'm somewhat
- 01:08:18stressed by this line of thinking which
- 01:08:19is you're making it unilateral and the
- 01:08:22reality is is we're social animals and
- 01:08:25yes you have quote unquote agency over
- 01:08:27yourself decision-making power over your
- 01:08:29actions and how you show up da d d but
- 01:08:31we work in Social environments and we're
- 01:08:33social animals and we do respond to the
- 01:08:35environments we're in you take a good
- 01:08:37person you put them in a bad environment
- 01:08:38that person will act abhor you know and
- 01:08:40vice versa prison or take somebody who
- 01:08:43who who is not considered trustworthy
- 01:08:45and you change their environment and
- 01:08:46that person will rise up and shine in a
- 01:08:48way that nobody ever expected so I don't
- 01:08:50think it's fair to say people have it or
- 01:08:52it's taken away it's both I think it
- 01:08:55goes both ways like I can make
- 01:08:57you have none and I can also help create
- 01:09:01the conditions in which you're allowed
- 01:09:03to step into it at the same time you can
- 01:09:05either lean into it whether I've given
- 01:09:07it to you or not and you can also hold
- 01:09:09it back whether the opportunity is
- 01:09:10available or not yeah as Leaders we can
- 01:09:12foster an
- 01:09:14environment which are incredibly
- 01:09:16powerful for people to express their
- 01:09:18agency yes how much they want to express
- 01:09:21is a choice they make and this is the
- 01:09:24the the the Great rates of historical
- 01:09:27greatness those are the ones that even
- 01:09:30in the most deplorable hostile
- 01:09:32conditions flexed agency yes and those
- 01:09:35so if they can do it if Victor Frankle
- 01:09:38can do it yeah I think I can get I I can
- 01:09:40do it like so I'm inspired by those that
- 01:09:43are able to do that and I want to
- 01:09:45understand the conditions internally
- 01:09:47yeah that have allowed them to express
- 01:09:49High agency in some of the most
- 01:09:50deplorable conditions that would never
- 01:09:53reach yeah modern modern
- 01:09:55empy and and and Victor Frankle who was
- 01:09:58in the concentration caps during the
- 01:10:00second world war and couldn't understand
- 01:10:02why all these people who are all
- 01:10:03suffering the same conditions the same
- 01:10:05uphar conditions why some had the will
- 01:10:07to live and some didn't and now we know
- 01:10:11from his writing you know we can't we
- 01:10:13can't choose the conditions but we can
- 01:10:14choose our reaction to those conditions
- 01:10:16and we can be more clear about our why
- 01:10:18and we can more be more clear about our
- 01:10:19why and I
- 01:10:21think the and the value of those
- 01:10:24examples are because they're so
- 01:10:26extreme most of us aren't work you know
- 01:10:28it's never we'll never come close thank
- 01:10:30goodness and that is a profound insight
- 01:10:33and the point being that no matter what
- 01:10:34our conditions are and I think what
- 01:10:35we're talking about it's a difficult
- 01:10:37conversation to have these days because
- 01:10:39the the the the the bedfellow to agency
- 01:10:41is boundary well that's cool I was going
- 01:10:43to go
- 01:10:44accountability bedfellow is a cool
- 01:10:46framing bedfellow to agency is I said
- 01:10:50boundary boundary boundaries right I
- 01:10:53like it I was going accountability and
- 01:10:55and and here's what I'm getting at and
- 01:10:56why it's an why it's a more complex
- 01:10:58conversation than it than it than 20
- 01:11:01years ago it would have been is because
- 01:11:04this term boundaries has been bandied
- 01:11:06about and folks like me and folks like
- 01:11:09you talk about these terms and they get
- 01:11:11latched on and used as swords rather
- 01:11:13than Shields how about it so you'll find
- 01:11:16in a in a work environment usually a
- 01:11:19younger employee but not not exclusively
- 01:11:22which is you're not respecting my
- 01:11:24boundaries or I have boundaries and
- 01:11:27declare they're not declarations they're
- 01:11:29conversations right and and also there's
- 01:11:33irony to some of these conversations as
- 01:11:35well because they think they're
- 01:11:37expressing agency by putting up
- 01:11:39boundaries deing boundaries that's right
- 01:11:41but are you also willing to obey
- 01:11:43somebody else's boundaries that's cool
- 01:11:45so I'll give you a real life example
- 01:11:46that showed up in Co young employee
- 01:11:48working for a
- 01:11:49company High performer doing great
- 01:11:52companies looking after them wonderful
- 01:11:55and and she
- 01:11:56quits and in the exit interview they say
- 01:11:58what's going on we didn't see this
- 01:12:00coming she says um I'm burnt out and
- 01:12:04Company's
- 01:12:05like what like we know your
- 01:12:08workload we know like we know it's a
- 01:12:10highly stressful time now but burnt out
- 01:12:14what made no sense turns out what was
- 01:12:16happening is this person was an empath
- 01:12:19this person was a great listener and
- 01:12:22during Co especially you know the way
- 01:12:24that we used to work is we go to work
- 01:12:26and then after work we go out with our
- 01:12:27friends and we vent about work or
- 01:12:30everything else that's going on in our
- 01:12:31life and that was taken away from us
- 01:12:33yeah so what happened was usually
- 01:12:35younger but not exclusively so people
- 01:12:37found the empath on the
- 01:12:39team and that person would always say
- 01:12:42yes to the phone call and would always
- 01:12:45be there to listen sometimes
- 01:12:48affirm not necessarily great narratives
- 01:12:51about boyfriends girlfriends work life
- 01:12:53bosses colleagues whatever and this poor
- 01:12:56these poor empaths were taking on
- 01:12:59everybody else's stress at work to the
- 01:13:00point of burnout right and I I I I told
- 01:13:04this story on the stage once and a young
- 01:13:06employee came up to me goes oh my God
- 01:13:09I'm doing that like there's somebody on
- 01:13:11my team I go to with all my problems my
- 01:13:13my boyfriend problems my work problems
- 01:13:15and they're always there for me I'm
- 01:13:17doing that and I said yeah you've
- 01:13:18constructed your boundaries you've told
- 01:13:20work I'm not doing this and I'm not
- 01:13:22doing that and yet on a daily basis
- 01:13:24you're violating somebody else's
- 01:13:25boundaries how about it right yeah so I
- 01:13:28like what you're doing here yeah it's
- 01:13:29good and so it's a it's a complex
- 01:13:30conversation because agency it's these
- 01:13:35and again I this is I think the mistake
- 01:13:36of all of this leadership performance
- 01:13:39stuff all of it all the books all the
- 01:13:41authors all of us all the podcasters the
- 01:13:44huge mistake of this is we usually talk
- 01:13:47about these things in isolation like you
- 01:13:50have to do this you have agency don't be
- 01:13:52the victim whatever it is set your
- 01:13:53boundaries tell you but the problem is
- 01:13:55we're social it's all
- 01:13:57interactive you know that the way we
- 01:13:59show up the way we act it does have
- 01:14:01impact on other people's feelings lives
- 01:14:05work and yet we are responsible you know
- 01:14:08it's like like if I say something mean
- 01:14:11to somebody and I hurt their
- 01:14:13feelings I have to take accountability
- 01:14:16I'm not responsible for the way you feel
- 01:14:18actually you are like you're a dick and
- 01:14:21you made me feel bad cuz you talked
- 01:14:23about something that is my insecurity
- 01:14:25and that's not nice so we this is the
- 01:14:28Paradox of Being Human and it's the
- 01:14:30Paradox of being a a leader or an
- 01:14:32employee or anything which is every
- 01:14:35single moment of every single day we are
- 01:14:37both individuals and a member of a group
- 01:14:40love that we're both an individual and
- 01:14:41I'm in a family I'm in a relationship
- 01:14:44I'm on a team I'm in a church I'm in a
- 01:14:46community right and I every day I'm a
- 01:14:49sapian I'm a Sapien every day I have to
- 01:14:51weigh decisions some inconsequential and
- 01:14:53some very consequential do I put myself
- 01:14:56first at the expense of the group or do
- 01:14:57I put the group first at the expense of
- 01:14:58myself and the answer is yes it's a
- 01:15:00paradox and there's an entire school of
- 01:15:02thought that says no you always
- 01:15:03prioritize self over group because if
- 01:15:05you're not healthy you can't support the
- 01:15:06group and there's an entire school that
- 01:15:08says no you always prioritize group
- 01:15:10because if they don't care about you
- 01:15:11when you're in a time of need they won't
- 01:15:12be there for you and the answer
- 01:15:14is that's the answer this is one of the
- 01:15:16reasons being human is uncomfortable and
- 01:15:20messy and complex and complicated
- 01:15:23because none of it is clear but there
- 01:15:25only one thing that I know you are you
- 01:15:27and you are one of many every moment of
- 01:15:30every day now go ahead and live a life
- 01:15:33and this is hard and this is why
- 01:15:35leadership is hard because we teach
- 01:15:36people how to be good at their jobs and
- 01:15:38we don't teach people how to look after
- 01:15:41other
- 01:15:42people and that's what makes any team or
- 01:15:45any company great that's awesome I love
- 01:15:48what you're doing here it's really clear
- 01:15:51well done and that's my huge complaint
- 01:15:53about most of this leadership Theory
- 01:15:54ship
- 01:15:55and by the way maslov got it wrong
- 01:15:58maslov's hierarchy of needs right he
- 01:16:01puts at the bottom food and shelter and
- 01:16:03the third level up he has Human
- 01:16:05Relationships now belonging belonging
- 01:16:08right now I've never heard of anybody
- 01:16:09Dying by suicide because they were
- 01:16:12hungry I've heard of people dying by
- 01:16:14suicide because they were lonely
- 01:16:16belonging seems to be more important no
- 01:16:20the mistake he made and by the way he
- 01:16:23put self-actualization at the top as if
- 01:16:24if you reach the top of a pyramid
- 01:16:26literally and look down at all the UN
- 01:16:27actualized people I mean
- 01:16:29seriously anyway God he's only half
- 01:16:33right if you only think of in think of
- 01:16:35us as individuals 100% True Food and
- 01:16:38shelter absolutely come first and
- 01:16:40belonging absolutely comes later and we
- 01:16:42should be working for for for
- 01:16:44self-actualization as individuals but
- 01:16:46the problem is we're also members of
- 01:16:47groups which means in that scenario
- 01:16:49belonging comes first and food and
- 01:16:52shelter is probably number three and at
- 01:16:54the top is shared actualization which is
- 01:16:57what purpose at work is and that's why
- 01:16:59when Sacha talks about I want you to
- 01:17:00find your why so you can have
- 01:17:02self-actualization I want us to know our
- 01:17:04why because you working here will have
- 01:17:05shared actualization and that's why we
- 01:17:07get along and so Mas is half wrong and
- 01:17:11half right never heard it never heard
- 01:17:13your take never heard this take on it
- 01:17:15and it's gonna cause me some dilemma
- 01:17:16because I like maslo fine and I and I
- 01:17:19he's fine he's just half
- 01:17:21right I've never heard he just never
- 01:17:23considered he just never considered
- 01:17:25us as social animals except as a rung as
- 01:17:28an individual yeah that's interesting
- 01:17:30yeah I part of my writings is that we
- 01:17:32are social beings masquerading like
- 01:17:35individual contributors yeah right we
- 01:17:37are we are more like a coral reef and
- 01:17:40and this is the hardest thing for every
- 01:17:42leader to have to deal with at some
- 01:17:43point and every Junior person won't
- 01:17:46understand this until they get more
- 01:17:46senior and then every leader will have
- 01:17:48to be confronted with it the team is
- 01:17:50more important than any individual on
- 01:17:52the team and that is brutal which is I
- 01:17:56can sacrifice one person for the good of
- 01:17:57the team I cannot sacrifice the team for
- 01:18:00the good of one person otherwise the
- 01:18:02whole thing collapses and that is
- 01:18:04excruciating now most too many leaders
- 01:18:06take that too seriously too quickly and
- 01:18:08fire too quickly with this guys of them
- 01:18:11doing it for the greater good which
- 01:18:12they're not it is a it is the last
- 01:18:15resort to destroy someone's livelihood
- 01:18:18for the good of the team but it's true
- 01:18:22which is which is the team is more
- 01:18:24important an individual on the team but
- 01:18:26I have to protect every individual on
- 01:18:28the team to make the team flourish and
- 01:18:30it is this is one of the reasons why we
- 01:18:32have to teach human skills and we have
- 01:18:34to teach leadership when people join our
- 01:18:36organizations when people join a sports
- 01:18:38team we drill into them how to throw how
- 01:18:41to catch how to run the skills of
- 01:18:43playing the game we teach them the rules
- 01:18:45over and over and over and over until
- 01:18:47they are literally experts in the
- 01:18:49playing of the game and how you how you
- 01:18:52throw a ball and all the things and yet
- 01:18:54as we promote we usually promote people
- 01:18:57who are good at the game into a position
- 01:18:59of leadership which is wrong right
- 01:19:01there's no correlation between how good
- 01:19:03you are and how good you are at leading
- 01:19:04other people like Tommy Lort Soo ball
- 01:19:07player great coach Isaiah Thomas like
- 01:19:10Michael Jordan Michael Jord phenomenal
- 01:19:12players terrible coaches right no
- 01:19:14correlation that's right but as we
- 01:19:15promote
- 01:19:16performers we give them zero education
- 01:19:19on how to lead and then we're surprised
- 01:19:22when the organizations break or how they
- 01:19:26misunderstand some of the things we're
- 01:19:27talking about like boundaries they
- 01:19:29misunderstand why when we say things
- 01:19:30like the team is more important than the
- 01:19:31individual fine I'll just fire all the
- 01:19:33bad performance no no no no no that's
- 01:19:34not what I'm saying that's not what I'm
- 01:19:36saying right right well I think most
- 01:19:38people actually don't fire they they
- 01:19:40hold on too long to the high performers
- 01:19:42rather than fire I think that's true I
- 01:19:44think we I think we hold on too long to
- 01:19:46the the high performers of of low trust
- 01:19:49yeah of C disrup culture and and at the
- 01:19:53altar of performance we know that
- 01:19:55they're having negative effects on
- 01:19:56everybody else and we know that if we
- 01:19:57let them go it'll raise the performance
- 01:19:59of everybody else but we're
- 01:20:01just it's too they're so good their
- 01:20:04numbers are so good yeah it's so easy
- 01:20:06like this right their numbers are so
- 01:20:07good but the problem is they're not
- 01:20:08loyal to you no um the team hates them
- 01:20:11you're destroying everybody everybody
- 01:20:14knows and they're waiting and I think
- 01:20:15your your point is such a good one which
- 01:20:17is if we say the team is more important
- 01:20:19than any individual on the team that
- 01:20:20doesn't mean get rid of your weak ones
- 01:20:23what it does mean is that get rid of
- 01:20:25your toxic High performers your toxic
- 01:20:28Geniuses because the team is more
- 01:20:30important than any individual performer
- 01:20:32on the team I love it it's your idea
- 01:20:36shared at this point Co co-contributors
- 01:20:40the two of us so let's go back to we are
- 01:20:44the day after the Super Bowl yeah 49ers
- 01:20:47lost the Super Bowl yep you are in the
- 01:20:49team meeting room the next day yeah it's
- 01:20:51kind of the last day of the Season yeah
- 01:20:55what do you say to the team oh I I think
- 01:20:58you you don't give a a rah rah speech
- 01:21:01you don't give a we got next year look
- 01:21:03how well you did we made it to the Super
- 01:21:05Bowl it's unfair you have to affirm the
- 01:21:08feelings that they're having they're
- 01:21:10they just been told they lost the Super
- 01:21:12Bowl well if you've lost that means
- 01:21:13you're the loser now of course that's
- 01:21:16nonsense you made it to the Super Bowl
- 01:21:17but that's not how it feels and they're
- 01:21:20dejected and they're sad and they're
- 01:21:21hurt and we have to affirm all of those
- 01:21:23which because they the the finite game
- 01:21:26because they they lost the finite game
- 01:21:27that's all and and we have to just sit
- 01:21:30in that with them be like boy this this
- 01:21:32hurts this really hurts this really
- 01:21:35sucks you're not selling the infinite
- 01:21:36game at that point no no no no it's
- 01:21:39you're acknowledging that this is a
- 01:21:41finite game you know I I'm a great
- 01:21:42believer in honesty but I'm also if you
- 01:21:44if you have an infinite mindset you have
- 01:21:46more of a sense of timing right which is
- 01:21:49you have to you have to tell the truth
- 01:21:52and you have to be honest and you have
- 01:21:53to get people through it but you don't
- 01:21:54have to do it all now I'll give you I'll
- 01:21:56give you an a real life example that
- 01:21:58happened to me so um a friend of mine
- 01:22:01was in a play so I went to see to
- 01:22:03support and I can say with absolute
- 01:22:05certainty that it was easily one of the
- 01:22:06worst things I've ever seen in my life I
- 01:22:09mean I can't tell you it was torturous
- 01:22:12and had it not been my friend I would
- 01:22:13have walked out and if I could have
- 01:22:15walked out twice I would
- 01:22:16have um it was so bad God right yeah now
- 01:22:21at the end of the play I went and hung
- 01:22:23out in the lobby and my friend came out
- 01:22:25to you know friends and family she's
- 01:22:27still in costume and makeup and she
- 01:22:29comes up to me jacked up with adrenaline
- 01:22:31she just came off the stage what you
- 01:22:33think and she said what' you think
- 01:22:34exactly now she knows I'm an honest
- 01:22:36broker she knows that I strive for
- 01:22:38honesty as often as I can right oh yeah
- 01:22:41now now is not the time or the place
- 01:22:43right when she's jacked up on adrenaline
- 01:22:45to have an emotional what will be deeply
- 01:22:47emotional because it's not rational
- 01:22:49right now so I can't lie right that's
- 01:22:52not allowed either so I said oh my God
- 01:22:55I'm so proud of you I said it was such a
- 01:22:57thrill to see you on the stage doing
- 01:22:59your thing I've never seen you before
- 01:23:01and it was a real rush to see you when
- 01:23:02you came out all true oh my God thank
- 01:23:05you thank you thank you all true and I
- 01:23:07said hugged goodbye next two or three
- 01:23:09days go past and we talked and I can I
- 01:23:13said can I tell you what I thought about
- 01:23:16the play adrenaline is down emotions are
- 01:23:19relaxed she's in a rational State and
- 01:23:22she goes yeah of course and I go well
- 01:23:25the script was weak she goes yeah it was
- 01:23:27he said the directing was pretty bad she
- 01:23:29goes I know I said I like you she goes
- 01:23:32thanks and I that one other actor was
- 01:23:34incredible yeah but overall it
- 01:23:37was she goes no I
- 01:23:39agree and so the same goes here for the
- 01:23:41like there's a time and place like yes
- 01:23:43you have to be honest but not you don't
- 01:23:46bring emot irrational you don't bring
- 01:23:48rational thoughts to an emotional
- 01:23:50gunfight amazing you know amazing this
- 01:23:52is an emotional time you hold space they
- 01:23:55feel like let them feel like
- 01:23:56amazing it's okay and then a month from
- 01:23:59now we'll have the rational conversation
- 01:24:01and the infinite game and that's when
- 01:24:02you get the all raw Rod up again Simon
- 01:24:05what a fun conversation fun for me too
- 01:24:07yeah I really enjoyed meeting you in
- 01:24:09this way and having fun exploring
- 01:24:12complicated invisible ideas trying to
- 01:24:15make them tangible I think we I think we
- 01:24:17landed no no no that didn't work I was
- 01:24:19going to say I think we landed a plane
- 01:24:21we landed the bird on the perch finally
- 01:24:23it's finally there there's definitely a
- 01:24:25bird on a perch somewhere somewhere yeah
- 01:24:27I I want to say thank you and where
- 01:24:28where can folks that um would love a
- 01:24:31little bit more of this where where can
- 01:24:32we drive them to or suggest they go all
- 01:24:34the usual places your Instagrams your
- 01:24:37simon.com simon.com your what are I Tik
- 01:24:41toks oh yeah yeah yeah oh that's
- 01:24:43probably a good thing thanks for the the
- 01:24:45softball that I completely waed so I'm
- 01:24:48obsessed with human skills and so we've
- 01:24:50made it um we've made it quarter our
- 01:24:53very existence to help teach those human
- 01:24:55skills so at simons.com yes we uh we are
- 01:24:58teaching the human skills online
- 01:25:00learning uh iners stuff as well um
- 01:25:03teaching human skills to individuals or
- 01:25:05or teams so that they can do all the
- 01:25:07things that we've been talking about for
- 01:25:08the past however long we've been talking
- 01:25:09I love it I hope we find a way to work
- 01:25:11together Co create something it'd be a
- 01:25:13lot of fun a lot of fun yeah thanks for
- 01:25:15having me thank you
- 01:25:20Simon
- Simon Sinek
- Human Skills
- Finite Games
- Infinite Games
- Leadership
- Business Strategy
- Team Building
- Empathy
- Vulnerability
- Sustainable Success