Rethinking SEO in the age of AI | Eli Schwartz (SEO advisor, author)
Summary
TLDRIn this podcast episode, Eli Schwarz, a seasoned SEO growth adviser, discusses pivotal shifts in SEO with the rise of AI and Large Language Models (LLMs) like ChatGPT, which are now integrated into search engines, affecting how searches and results are curated. He emphasizes thinking of SEO as a product strategy rather than just a marketing tactic, suggesting that product managers need to lead the charge in optimizing for user journeys. As AI reduces the prominence of basic informational queries (top-of-funnel content), the focus should shift to mid-funnel opportunities that cater to users' specific needs, guiding them down the conversion path. Schwarz critiques traditional SEO tactics, such as the overuse of long-form content aimed at top keywords, recommending instead to understand user intent deeply and create content that authentically meets those needs. He cites examples from companies like Tinder and Zapier that successfully implemented data-driven, programmatic SEO strategies to cater to user-specific needs, emphasizing that companies must adapt to the changing landscape by providing value rather than just attracting clicks. The episode discusses Google's efforts to stay relevant and competitive against AI advancements, addressing their strategic response in integrating AI-generated answers while balancing user needs and business incentives like advertisement revenue. Schwarz encourages leveraging AI to enhance content quality, ensuring it remains valuable and relevant to users without solely relying on SEO myths, such as the perpetual focus on link-building. He also highlights that SEO success requires a clear understanding of conversion paths and should avoid generic content dumps that provide little user value. This episode is crucial for anyone involved in SEO, digital marketing, or interested in the evolving nature of search engines.
Takeaways
- 🔍 Think of SEO as a product-focused strategy.
- 🤖 AI is changing top-of-funnel SEO tactics.
- 🗝️ Focus on user journeys and mid-funnel strategies.
- 🚫 Avoid generic, traffic-chasing SEO content.
- 📈 SEO remains relevant by targeting specific user needs.
- 🧩 Collaboration between product and marketing enriches SEO.
- ✍️ Programmatic SEO can be a powerful tool.
- 🛠️ Use AI to augment content creation effectively.
- ⚖️ Balance between structured data and user intent is crucial.
- 🇬🇧 Google's AI updates are expanding globally.
- 💡 Brand presence benefits from AI-generated answer inclusion.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
SEO is transitioning significantly due to AI answers in search results, shifting the importance from traditional content ranking to how SEO functions as a product. The focus should be on understanding SEO as part of a discovery journey for users who don't engage through social channels or ads, but are instead self-directed in their search journeys.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Eli Schwarz, a growth advisor and SEO expert, notes the shift in SEO with the rise of LLMs and integrated AI answers in search results, emphasizing the need for businesses to pivot their understanding of SEO traffic. The conversation stresses the importance of adapting SEO strategies amidst these changes.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Eli discusses how Google is adapting to AI technologies by incorporating AI-generated answers directly into search results. This shift challenges traditional SEO practices as it changes user search behaviors and the search process itself, demanding new strategies for capturing SEO traffic.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Companies might face disruptions in SEO ranking due to the integration of AI answers. This transformation changes the SEO landscape, especially for businesses relying on ranking through long-form content. The adaptation involves focusing SEO efforts on mid-funnel stages, where AI impacts top-funnel queries the most.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Products like pendo demonstrate integrating user insights into the product experience, which could be an analogous approach for integrating SEO strategies with AI insights. This approach highlights the importance of understanding user needs and behavioral data to inform product and marketing strategies.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
The Brave search engine emphasizes the growing trend towards independent search experiences supplementing traditional search engines like Google. This movement, combined with AI influence, suggests a shift towards more personalized search solutions and opportunities for less SEO-reliant traffic strategies.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Google's adaptation to AI-driven answers aims to maintain its relevance amidst growing interest in AI capabilities like ChatGPT. This entails addressing both the threat to traditional search traffic and mitigating legal liabilities involving AI-generated advice.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Eli emphasizes that the essence of SEO hasn't changed; it's about meeting user expectations and enhancing discovery. However, what's changing is the tactical framework within which SEO operates, especially with AI's influence. The strategic response requires understanding where AI and SEO intersect.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
The discussion explores how AI can help synthesize previously scattered search data, affecting how users interact with search results. Businesses are encouraged to reassess SEO's role in customer journeys, particularly focusing on conversion paths affected by AI suggestions.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
The dialogue acknowledges the prevalence of AI-generated content and addresses its impact. It's a reminder that while AI can enhance content production, its value ultimately depends on the content's alignment with user needs and business goals. True SEO impact is seen in conversion, not traffic alone.
- 00:50:00 - 00:55:00
SEO involves collaboration across various company functions, from product management to marketing. Eli urges businesses to rethink their SEO strategies to accommodate AI-generated shifts. Effective SEO requires unifying these efforts to align with user intent, especially in mid-funnel scenarios.
- 00:55:00 - 01:00:00
Through examples like Tinder and Zapier, Eli illustrates how SEO initiatives should align closely with product offerings and user needs. The evolution of SEO should be understood as a product question, focusing on solving user issues aligned with business growth objectives.
- 01:00:00 - 01:05:00
AI overviews are anticipated to dominate casual search inquiries, altering how SEO impacts top-of-funnel strategies. Companies must now focus SEO on direct conversions derived from well-understood user journeys that AI cannot clarify in detail, especially those requiring specific brand engagements.
- 01:05:00 - 01:10:00
The potential SEO changes fuel discussions about valuable conversions over traffic volume. Businesses are advised to focus SEO strategies on understanding user personas and behaviors, catering content and discovery channels around precise user queries that align with conversion goals.
- 01:10:00 - 01:15:00
AI can be a tool for SEO, provided the content aligns with user query intent and journey stages. AI-generated content can supplement but not replace the nuanced understanding of user intent crucial for effective SEO conversions, underscoring the difference between quantity and quality in content strategy.
- 01:15:00 - 01:20:00
Google's AI-centric changes underscore the importance of brand visibility in AI-generated answers. However, achieving presence in AI-enhanced search requires more than SEO; it's about building recognizable, trusted brands that AI can reference, reinforcing the intersection between brand strategy and search visibility.
- 01:20:00 - 01:25:00
SEO remains crucial in linking user questions with actionable paths facilitated by brands positioned as solutions. The changes require brands to rethink their role in new search environments where AI offers the first-level response, necessitating a shift to supporting deeper user engagement and trust.
- 01:25:00 - 01:30:00
The example of TripAdvisor illustrates successful programmatic SEO by leveraging collected data for scale without direct content creation. The approach signifies aligning SEO with tangible user outcomes beyond basic content saturation, using programmatic insights to enhance scalable content strategies.
- 01:30:00 - 01:35:00
SEO myths like the necessity of SEO for all brands and simplistic link-building strategies are debunked. Real effectiveness comes from strategic SEO initiatives aligned with user journeys and conversion goals, avoiding the trap of seeing SEO as merely a traffic driver without business alignment.
- 01:35:00 - 01:40:00
Technical SEO alone isn't a magic fix for search rankings. Real improvements come from aligning technical efforts with user-centric content strategies, allowing strategic enhancements of the user experience to boost relevance and relevance-driven metrics rather than narrow technical optimizations.
- 01:40:00 - 01:45:00
SEO's future involves its blend with brand strategy, requiring integrated initiatives that emphasize relevant brand presence over simple search rankings. Understanding SEO as part of a broader brand and user engagement strategy ensures that it remains an effective, conversion-focused channel.
- 01:45:00 - 01:55:09
AI's role in SEO is both an opportunity and a challenge, necessitating adaptations to traditional practices. Companies should embrace the change as a chance to redefine their SEO approaches, focusing on clarity in user engagement, enhanced by AI insights but grounded in user needs and strategic brand positioning.
Mind Map
Video Q&A
What is the focus of this episode?
The episode focuses on understanding the evolving landscape of SEO with AI integration, especially concerning AI-generated answers in search results.
Who is the guest speaker in this episode?
Eli Schwarz, a growth adviser specializing in SEO, is the guest speaker.
What is Eli Schwarz's stance on the future of SEO?
Eli believes SEO is not dying but is evolving with a focus on user journey and mid-funnel strategies as top-of-funnel searches are altered by AI.
How should companies approach SEO in light of AI changes?
Companies should think of SEO as a product, focusing on user experiences and solving users' problems through mid-funnel strategies.
What kind of changes has Google been making in search results?
Google is rolling out AI-generated answers in an effort to incorporate more structured and user-relevant summaries at the top of search results.
Why are some types of content more affected by AI-generated answers?
Top-of-funnel content, like general information, is more impacted as AI overviews provide direct answers, reducing the need for users to click through.
What examples are given of successful SEO strategies?
Examples include Tinder's localized content and Zapier's integrations, focusing on solving specific user needs rather than generic keywords.
Is it still beneficial for businesses to invest in SEO?
Yes, particularly if they focus on aligning SEO strategies with solving user problems and not just chasing traffic for its own sake.
How does SEO remain relevant despite AI advancements?
SEO remains relevant by targeting mid to bottom funnel searches where users are closer to making a purchasing decision.
How long does it typically take to see results from SEO efforts?
The timeframe can vary, but results might be seen in a few months, depending on execution and market fit.
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- 00:00:00you've noticed a significant shift in
- 00:00:02how SEO works with the rise of AI
- 00:00:04answers being integrated into search
- 00:00:06results transparently I thought this was
- 00:00:07going to be apocalypse up until AI
- 00:00:09overviews whoever won on that long form
- 00:00:12piece of content would get that first
- 00:00:14clip but now that doesn't exist anymore
- 00:00:15what should people do to be successful
- 00:00:18in this new paradigm think of SEO as a
- 00:00:20product the product managers are the
- 00:00:21people that should be thinking about
- 00:00:23this SEO question because it's a product
- 00:00:25question product people need to think
- 00:00:27about how do we position this to the
- 00:00:29user that is is not going to find out
- 00:00:31about this from a social Channel that's
- 00:00:33not going to be attracted by an ad this
- 00:00:35is a user that's doing their own
- 00:00:37self-discovery Journey if you can't
- 00:00:39answer the question about what is it
- 00:00:40that someone's going to do a search on
- 00:00:42then don't do SEO to a lot of people SEO
- 00:00:44is kind of this Dark Art it is not a
- 00:00:46dark art it is simple I think Step One
- 00:00:47is the step that almost everyone misses
- 00:00:50on SEO which
- 00:00:56is today my guest is Eli Schwarz Eli is
- 00:01:00a growth adviser specializing in SEO and
- 00:01:03has helped companies like Kora coinbase
- 00:01:06Tinder LinkedIn WordPress and zapier
- 00:01:09develop and execute their SEO strategies
- 00:01:12he's also the author of product let SEO
- 00:01:14and has a very refreshing take on how to
- 00:01:16think about SEO and win at SEO recently
- 00:01:19he's been spending a lot of his time
- 00:01:21analyzing how SEO changes with the rise
- 00:01:23of llm chat Bots Google giving you the
- 00:01:26ANW straight in the search results and
- 00:01:28also how to utilize AI in your your SEO
- 00:01:30strategy in this episode we dive deep
- 00:01:33into everything that you need to know to
- 00:01:34be successful in this new AI Paradigm as
- 00:01:37Eli shares in the conversation Google is
- 00:01:40just now rolling out changes to how
- 00:01:42search works and is greatly increasing
- 00:01:44how many searches include an AI
- 00:01:45generated answer at the top of the
- 00:01:47search results so things are going to
- 00:01:49start shifting under our feet pretty
- 00:01:50quickly if you're at all thinking about
- 00:01:52SEO working on SEO or are just curious
- 00:01:55about how search is evolving this
- 00:01:57episode is for you if you enjoy this
- 00:01:59podcast don't forget subscribe and
- 00:02:00follow in your favorite podcasting app
- 00:02:02or YouTube it's the best way to avoid
- 00:02:03missing future episodes and it helps the
- 00:02:05podcast tremendously with that I bring
- 00:02:08you Eli
- 00:02:12Schwarz Eli thank you so much for being
- 00:02:14here welcome to the podcast it's a real
- 00:02:17honor to be here you've had some amazing
- 00:02:18guests and I'm honored to be counted as
- 00:02:20one of them it's completely my honor
- 00:02:23you've been working on SEO for a long
- 00:02:25time you've been helping companies
- 00:02:27figure out how to win at SEO for a long
- 00:02:28time over a decade
- 00:02:30and we were chatting about what's
- 00:02:31happening in SEO and he told me that
- 00:02:34you've noticed a significant shift in
- 00:02:36how SEO works with the rise of llms with
- 00:02:40the rise of AI answers being integrated
- 00:02:41into search results and so I thought
- 00:02:44it'd be awesome just to spend an entire
- 00:02:45episode talking about what people need
- 00:02:48to know about what's changing an SEO and
- 00:02:49how to be successful in this new
- 00:02:51paradigm of SEO with LMS and AI being
- 00:02:55prevalent how does that sound to you
- 00:02:57that's an awesome idea I I really like
- 00:02:59what what's happening with AI in general
- 00:03:01for SEO because it's causing everyone
- 00:03:05that cares about SEO traffic whether
- 00:03:07that's a PM whether it's a CMO whether
- 00:03:09it's a CEO to really be forced into
- 00:03:12pivoting their thinking about what SEO
- 00:03:14traffic means because the tactics around
- 00:03:17SEO haven't really changed it's always
- 00:03:19been the exact same thing like I was um
- 00:03:23when I was my last full-time job was I
- 00:03:24would Survey Monkey and I was I was
- 00:03:26Moonlighting on the side and I was
- 00:03:27introduced to a CEO a of a a big company
- 00:03:30and they were asking me about my
- 00:03:31approach to SEO and I wanted to close it
- 00:03:34I wanted to get Consulting engagement
- 00:03:37and the CEO says to me so essentially
- 00:03:39what you're telling me is I need to find
- 00:03:41my keywords put that into content and
- 00:03:43then build some links is there anything
- 00:03:45else you're going to do for me why
- 00:03:46should I pay you and it's it's done me
- 00:03:49into silence because essentially that is
- 00:03:52and was SEO and then that forced me to
- 00:03:56really pivot my thinking around what SEO
- 00:03:58might be and I pivoted my thinking and I
- 00:04:01you know I've talked to worked with many
- 00:04:03companies around how they should think
- 00:04:04about SEO and what SEO traffic should
- 00:04:06mean but others have not because those
- 00:04:09tactics did work and llms and AI in
- 00:04:13general is forcing people to think again
- 00:04:16how should SEO work how should I be
- 00:04:18driving business from a search
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- 00:06:42Lenny so just to set a little Foundation
- 00:06:45talk about just what is it that's
- 00:06:46changing in search in an SEO with the
- 00:06:49rise of AI answers and
- 00:06:51LMS so essentially Google and other tech
- 00:06:56companies had their hand forced by open
- 00:06:58aai and chat PT so prior so Google has
- 00:07:01claims to have invented the concept of
- 00:07:02llms and they may or may not have and
- 00:07:04some of the early open AI employees were
- 00:07:06Google employees but chaty BT came on
- 00:07:09the scene at the end of 2022 with this
- 00:07:11ability to ask any question and then get
- 00:07:14a written out answer and suddenly people
- 00:07:16are like well I don't need a Google and
- 00:07:17click all these results so there's there
- 00:07:21started this conversation of you don't
- 00:07:23need Google anymore Google is ending
- 00:07:25even more than that you don't need SEO
- 00:07:27no one's going to No One you don't need
- 00:07:28to optimize anything because all the
- 00:07:30entire world will just be given to
- 00:07:32you we'll we'll dig into that I don't
- 00:07:34think that's at all correct and I don't
- 00:07:36think anyone whether they you're doing
- 00:07:38SEO as as your full-time job whether
- 00:07:40you're receiving SEO traffic as as a
- 00:07:43part of one of your primary marketing
- 00:07:44channels I don't think anybody has to
- 00:07:45worry about that however Google was
- 00:07:48worried about it and I think one of
- 00:07:50Google's primary stakeholders is really
- 00:07:52Wall Street so if Wall Street suddenly
- 00:07:55thinks that Google is a hasb been
- 00:07:57company and they're not interesting
- 00:07:58anymore and they don't want to maintain
- 00:08:00investments in them their stock price
- 00:08:02goes down and that hurts Google's
- 00:08:03ability to recruit employees it hurts
- 00:08:06Google's ability to raise money and
- 00:08:08invest in all the interesting stuff they
- 00:08:10do so Google has to satisfy the
- 00:08:12Curiosity and the interests of the
- 00:08:14general world and general investor by
- 00:08:17saying oh that open AI thing we can do
- 00:08:20it too that's not that big of a deal so
- 00:08:22then Google responded badly of course
- 00:08:25first by launching what was then barred
- 00:08:28so they said open CBT look we've got our
- 00:08:30own version and they they did a public
- 00:08:32demo and didn't work out well at all and
- 00:08:35their stock price actually went down and
- 00:08:37then they fixed it and then their stock
- 00:08:38price went up but they also had to have
- 00:08:41an answer to this concept of is search
- 00:08:43dying does anyone need to search anymore
- 00:08:45when the entire world can just be given
- 00:08:47to you so they launched what at the time
- 00:08:50they called sge search generative
- 00:08:52experience which is essentially chat gbt
- 00:08:57in a search result so they they launched
- 00:08:59that but they launched it as a beta and
- 00:09:01there were huge issues with what they
- 00:09:03were doing there because there's
- 00:09:05monetization issues they monetized I
- 00:09:07mean everything they do comes from ads
- 00:09:10the majority of their their revenue
- 00:09:12comes from ads so if you're going to
- 00:09:13show this AI answer on a search result
- 00:09:16then you also can't have ads you need to
- 00:09:18go all in on one of them that was one
- 00:09:21issue which they actually have not
- 00:09:22solved yet another issue they had was
- 00:09:24liability so if they have a generative
- 00:09:27response that tells you to do something
- 00:09:28awful
- 00:09:29like I think there was one where it may
- 00:09:31or may not have been fake there a lot of
- 00:09:32people made some fake ones that told you
- 00:09:34to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge are
- 00:09:36there liability concerns because Google
- 00:09:38Now is the publisher they're not a
- 00:09:40search engine that told you how to find
- 00:09:42out the answer to that they told you to
- 00:09:43do it themselves and the third issue
- 00:09:45there which is another liability concern
- 00:09:48is it plagiarism so those are the things
- 00:09:51that they worried about so they took
- 00:09:52about a year to test this thing which
- 00:09:54was fascinating because you know we're
- 00:09:56tech people and most of the listeners
- 00:09:57are tech people Google is very much a
- 00:10:00launch fast kind of company they reveal
- 00:10:03something and then it sort of rolls out
- 00:10:05very very quickly they're not the kind
- 00:10:07of company that says we're going to
- 00:10:09launch something and then they take a
- 00:10:10year to do it so AI overviews what was
- 00:10:13then called search generate experience
- 00:10:14launched at Google IO this past year in
- 00:10:17May of this past year and they renamed
- 00:10:19it to AO reviews and it's that it's
- 00:10:22essentially chat gbt in a search result
- 00:10:24they launched it to Great Fanfare of
- 00:10:26course it was live right away they said
- 00:10:28it was going only only going to be
- 00:10:30logged in users only in the US obviously
- 00:10:32they always have concerns about
- 00:10:33launching things in Europe because
- 00:10:35Europe's a little bit more litigious
- 00:10:36than the
- 00:10:38US and once they launched it suddenly
- 00:10:41they started getting these these
- 00:10:42screenshots of like Google told me to
- 00:10:44jump off the Golden Gate Bridge Google
- 00:10:46told me to put glue on my pizza which is
- 00:10:48of course Google didn't do that they
- 00:10:50just crawled things from around the web
- 00:10:52I'm surprised that Google didn't predict
- 00:10:54that because the exact same thing
- 00:10:55happened with chat gbt and Google's much
- 00:10:57bigger and a much more interesting
- 00:10:59Target for people that want to share
- 00:11:01those things on social media so Google
- 00:11:03launches it and that was a little bit
- 00:11:04embarrassing so they they rolled it back
- 00:11:06somewhat but what's even more
- 00:11:07interesting is they've given up on this
- 00:11:09rollback and or not given up they've
- 00:11:11gone back into it and they've relaunched
- 00:11:14it and now it's on so many more search
- 00:11:17results I'm seeing it on on most of the
- 00:11:18search results that that I see and on
- 00:11:21top of that it's now on it's non-logged
- 00:11:24in users are seeing it so Incognito
- 00:11:26users or users without any history of
- 00:11:28Google are seeing it and just launched
- 00:11:29it in the UK so this thing is coming and
- 00:11:31it's really going to be affecting search
- 00:11:33results to maybe uh help people
- 00:11:36understand why this may impact SEO if
- 00:11:38it's not obvious is it pushes results
- 00:11:40down people get the answer right there
- 00:11:42they don't have to click your links and
- 00:11:44then uh there's also like the M the the
- 00:11:47sponsored Links at the top of the page
- 00:11:48that already are pushing you down so
- 00:11:50basically your stuff is harder and
- 00:11:52harder to find right actually it's not
- 00:11:55that it's harder to find your stuff
- 00:11:56becomes less relevant and that that's
- 00:11:59the part about SEO that I'm excited
- 00:12:01about so SEO was exactly like that CEO
- 00:12:04said to me years ago it's just about
- 00:12:06creating some content and then it's just
- 00:12:07like this sort of this race to the top
- 00:12:09of getting your ranking results on that
- 00:12:11top keyword so years ago I worked at a
- 00:12:14startup where we were in the automotive
- 00:12:16space and we uh wrote content about cars
- 00:12:19and a word we like to rank on was Cars
- 00:12:21we bought ton we wrote the homepage was
- 00:12:23ranked for the word cars we bought tons
- 00:12:25of links and we were just a Cars website
- 00:12:28obviously not something anybody could
- 00:12:30expect to do now because you don't
- 00:12:32search like that you don't search oh I I
- 00:12:34need to buy a vehicle I'm going to use
- 00:12:36the word cars and sort of see what comes
- 00:12:38up because cars means a lot of things
- 00:12:40cars is a movie Cars is a kind of car
- 00:12:42you drive cars could be a go-kart it
- 00:12:45could be a lot of things so no one's
- 00:12:46going to think about those search
- 00:12:47results however SEO still geared towards
- 00:12:50those top of funnel those big keywords
- 00:12:53that people cared the most about so now
- 00:12:55a lot of those keywords are going to be
- 00:12:57moving into these AI overview use and I
- 00:13:00don't want to just focus on Google
- 00:13:01although I think Google's going to own
- 00:13:02the entire search page forever and ever
- 00:13:04for at least for a very long time but
- 00:13:07other engines whether it's perplexity or
- 00:13:09whether it's Claude or whether it's meta
- 00:13:11they all have this opportunity to give
- 00:13:13AI overview type responses that I think
- 00:13:16those top of funnel kind of queries are
- 00:13:18a great fit for what's going to come out
- 00:13:21as an answer so if you're looking to go
- 00:13:22on vacation and you want a Beach
- 00:13:25vacation you can ask a very explicit
- 00:13:27question about give me a Beach vacation
- 00:13:30that is not in America but is a 2-hour
- 00:13:32flight from X airport that's the kind of
- 00:13:35thing that you could do in a Google
- 00:13:36search but would take you a very long
- 00:13:38time to do and those are great answers
- 00:13:41from just getting a paragraph and then
- 00:13:43from there you move into the midf funnel
- 00:13:45so now you do this query and Google
- 00:13:48suggests to you that you should go to
- 00:13:49Cancun or sorry not Google but whatever
- 00:13:51that answer is suggest to you that you
- 00:13:53should go to Cancun and now you're sort
- 00:13:55of in the midf funnel and that's where
- 00:13:57SEO begins to matter so the reason why I
- 00:14:01think this disruption is so big is
- 00:14:03because the the journey changes the
- 00:14:05discovery changes so whereas before if
- 00:14:08you were a travel site you were able to
- 00:14:11rank on on a best best best Beach
- 00:14:13vacation within two hours of the United
- 00:14:15States that's your ranking result and
- 00:14:17then you have your long piece of content
- 00:14:19and you have your ads and you can
- 00:14:20monetize that that all changes when you
- 00:14:23can still rank number one on that but
- 00:14:25you're all the way at the bottom of the
- 00:14:26page the AI answer whoever that's from
- 00:14:29whether it's again from chat gbt or
- 00:14:31Google tells you where to now start
- 00:14:33doing your deeper search so just to
- 00:14:36maybe mirrorback what you're saying is
- 00:14:37the Discovery step of search is going to
- 00:14:40to be swallowed up by llms that give you
- 00:14:44a direction and then once you have a
- 00:14:47sense of what you want then you go back
- 00:14:49to Google and that's where potentially
- 00:14:52the opportunity continues to remain
- 00:14:55absolutely and I I think that's where
- 00:14:57things are good that's where I'm excited
- 00:14:59by the user experience for search
- 00:15:00because I don't think the user was best
- 00:15:02served by I don't know us news or Forbes
- 00:15:06writing out where the best vac Beach
- 00:15:08vacations are within two hours of the
- 00:15:10United States with that piece of content
- 00:15:12that was written by a freelancer who's
- 00:15:15not a travel expert so now you're going
- 00:15:18to get that information also from not a
- 00:15:20travel expert you're going to get an AI
- 00:15:22summarized answer and that will give you
- 00:15:25more clues and more ideas to do a deeper
- 00:15:27research search at I think that's where
- 00:15:29the user best served okay this is
- 00:15:31fascinating let's definitely spend more
- 00:15:33time there so people understand exactly
- 00:15:35what that means before we get into what
- 00:15:37PE that and what people should do to win
- 00:15:39here uh what impact have you seen on SEO
- 00:15:43and search results and the space of SEO
- 00:15:46as these things have rolled out have you
- 00:15:48seen like numbers of like this is
- 00:15:49declining this is growing transparently
- 00:15:52I thought this was going to be
- 00:15:53apocalypse so I shared about a year ago
- 00:15:54that it's going to be an apocalypse we
- 00:15:56have not seen it yet and a lot of people
- 00:15:58are declaring victory that there's no
- 00:16:00apocalypse because we have not seen it
- 00:16:02yet however this thing just launched in
- 00:16:04a way that I think it will start
- 00:16:05impacting traffic so prior to the last
- 00:16:08couple weeks it was not available on
- 00:16:11logged out search it was only on logged
- 00:16:13in Search and even more than that on
- 00:16:15that logged in search Google had rolled
- 00:16:16it back significantly because those
- 00:16:18embarrassing things that happened in May
- 00:16:20and June when they first launched it
- 00:16:22they only just now launching it broader
- 00:16:25and I do think we're going to see
- 00:16:26impacts of course another challenge with
- 00:16:28pinpoint any impacts is they rolling
- 00:16:30algorithm updates that are happening
- 00:16:33which we'll also talk about and that
- 00:16:35will sort of mask what's happening
- 00:16:36because if you've been hit by an algo
- 00:16:38update and suddenly you recover from the
- 00:16:40algo update you'll see more traffic but
- 00:16:42you might have seen more traffic but on
- 00:16:44a lower base because these AI overviews
- 00:16:46are changing things so I think if you
- 00:16:49take all those steps back and you look
- 00:16:51at this from a a journey perspective
- 00:16:53there's no way that it won't be
- 00:16:55impacting search it's just going to be
- 00:16:57hard to find and there'll be certain
- 00:16:59examples where it is extremely prevalent
- 00:17:02and there'll be others where it won't
- 00:17:03impact things at all and I think the
- 00:17:05dividing line is the journey where in
- 00:17:07the funnel that user is so if you are
- 00:17:10WebMD and you're writing content about
- 00:17:13the human body just generic content that
- 00:17:16has existed since medical journals were
- 00:17:18created AI overviews are going to be
- 00:17:21fantastic at giving you that answer you
- 00:17:23know you read a you know you have a
- 00:17:24headache and you just like well this
- 00:17:26headache's not going away should I take
- 00:17:27more Advil or should I take an app and
- 00:17:29then you find that WebMD article and you
- 00:17:31get to like page six and it tells you
- 00:17:33that you know 0 2% of people out have a
- 00:17:35headache actually have a brain tumor and
- 00:17:37you don't need that anymore because
- 00:17:39Google can tell you you're good you
- 00:17:40should take a nap and drink some more
- 00:17:42water and you know WebMD was competing
- 00:17:45with Healthline and and other Cleveland
- 00:17:47Clinic and Dallas clinic and all these
- 00:17:50other hospitals and it's totally
- 00:17:52unnecessary to go and look at all these
- 00:17:54results and go through six pages of
- 00:17:56information about headaches so a sight
- 00:17:58like that will be impacted by a AI
- 00:18:01overviews an e-commerce site maybe not
- 00:18:03it depends where in the funnel that user
- 00:18:05is as you're talking I was reminded of
- 00:18:08something that I forgot about with me my
- 00:18:10own experience I I used to have a
- 00:18:12website called when is Hanukah year.com
- 00:18:14uh because it changes every year and it
- 00:18:17just is just the date that was the whole
- 00:18:18website it gives you the date of
- 00:18:19Hanukkah this year and I put ads on
- 00:18:21there and it made like 10 bucks a year
- 00:18:22and then Google came in and just gave
- 00:18:24you freaking answer right inside the
- 00:18:26search result so I've experienced this
- 00:18:28you so it's even more than that so what
- 00:18:31you're referencing is structured data
- 00:18:34yeah so that's a very easy thing for
- 00:18:36Google to tell you when is Hanukkah in
- 00:18:38150 years from now it's it's in a data
- 00:18:40set yeah what's happening now is
- 00:18:42Google's taking this unstructured data
- 00:18:44from content and building it into
- 00:18:47structured data so you could ask a
- 00:18:49question of like what is the likelihood
- 00:18:52of a baby needing to go to the hospital
- 00:18:55because they're showing this sort of
- 00:18:56symptom and again instead of reading all
- 00:18:59that content and making a decision
- 00:19:00Google could take all that unstructured
- 00:19:02data and not just Google again chat jbt
- 00:19:04or Claude can take all that unstructured
- 00:19:06data and give you a statistic based on
- 00:19:08everything they've read and that's very
- 00:19:11helpful to users and I think again users
- 00:19:13benefit and then a user might find out
- 00:19:15there's another piece of information
- 00:19:16where I'd actually like to read a
- 00:19:17medical paper or that now I'd like to
- 00:19:20Google and find the closest doctor to me
- 00:19:22who has certain hours that's a Google
- 00:19:24search that's not an llm AI search yeah
- 00:19:27just to clarify I didn't intend to say
- 00:19:30that that was a recent uh that was AI
- 00:19:32oriented that happened like a decade ago
- 00:19:34so yeah I I totally totally agree well I
- 00:19:36just thought that was that was
- 00:19:37interesting to really drill into the
- 00:19:39difference between structured
- 00:19:40unstructured because unstructured is
- 00:19:42actually where Google is disrupting
- 00:19:44everything so this entire idea of SEO
- 00:19:47again up until 2022 was monetize
- 00:19:51unstructured data whoever wrote the
- 00:19:53longest piece of content on best beach
- 00:19:55hotels in Miami and then built the best
- 00:19:57links to it they would win they would
- 00:19:59win whether it's ads or win whether it's
- 00:20:01hotel bookings now Google can start you
- 00:20:03off at the top of that and say these are
- 00:20:05the best beach hotels based on all the
- 00:20:07people that have written content or
- 00:20:09actually Google's own on structured data
- 00:20:12from the reviews and give you that and
- 00:20:14then you can say okay I'd like to go to
- 00:20:16this hotel or I'd like to stay in this
- 00:20:17city so help us help us understand even
- 00:20:20deeper this dis distinction between top
- 00:20:23of funnel and mid funnel so when people
- 00:20:26are maybe winning at one or the other
- 00:20:27what does that look like what are some
- 00:20:28examp of like here's a to of funnel type
- 00:20:30of search that Google's going to eat and
- 00:20:31here's a mid funnel experience that you
- 00:20:33can win that so in general SEO has
- 00:20:37always been more at the top of the
- 00:20:40funnel generally because you're you're
- 00:20:41curious about something so let's say
- 00:20:43you're you're looking for a new software
- 00:20:45you're looking for new podcasting
- 00:20:46software so you you search for top
- 00:20:48podcast tools and you get back a list on
- 00:20:52let's say G2 so G2 is another G2 and all
- 00:20:55the sites like G2 like the gardener
- 00:20:57sites like cap Tera all going to be
- 00:20:59massively disrupted so you would get
- 00:21:01back a list from G2 which would give you
- 00:21:03out all the software and you look at
- 00:21:05some and it would say this one's geared
- 00:21:06towards Enterprise this one's geared
- 00:21:08towards small podcasters this one's free
- 00:21:11and then you have you now you've
- 00:21:12narrowed down your list to these three
- 00:21:14tools and that's when you start doing
- 00:21:16those searches now you're midf funnel
- 00:21:18now let's say you've chosen Riverside
- 00:21:20and you've gotten enough information
- 00:21:22from those other searches now you start
- 00:21:24searching Riverside price Riverside
- 00:21:26capacity Riverside with right those
- 00:21:29that's bottom of funnel and that's where
- 00:21:31you'll now go by Riverside however at
- 00:21:34the top you're doing top podcast tools
- 00:21:36so again up until AI overviews up until
- 00:21:39this entire concept of llm whoever won
- 00:21:42on that long form piece of content would
- 00:21:45get that first click but now that
- 00:21:47doesn't exist anymore you just go to
- 00:21:49Google and Google tells you these are
- 00:21:51the tools oh you're looking for a new
- 00:21:52CRM this is what a CRM is you want to
- 00:21:54know do you need a CRM or do you just
- 00:21:57need a calendar look at that and Google
- 00:21:59will just tell you in a paragraph and
- 00:22:01now you've redirected your search
- 00:22:03somewhere else into middle of the funnel
- 00:22:05so I think that's where SEO always
- 00:22:06should have been because that's where
- 00:22:08conversions could potentially happen
- 00:22:10however SEO never was there before
- 00:22:12because the way most SEO measures its
- 00:22:15performance and its success is rankings
- 00:22:18so they would say well it doesn't really
- 00:22:19matter if we convert on the word CRM but
- 00:22:21look we're number one so we're winning
- 00:22:23first of all as a user the sounds great
- 00:22:26uh I'm like so tired of just all search
- 00:22:28results just being a bunch of SEO Pages
- 00:22:31just with a bunch of BS answers and so I
- 00:22:34really prefer Google just tell me just
- 00:22:36tell me what I need to know the other
- 00:22:38piece is if you really think about
- 00:22:39Google has been trying to do like
- 00:22:40they've been trying to do this is like
- 00:22:42here's our best shot at giving you an
- 00:22:43answer to this question and here's links
- 00:22:44that'll point you to an answer and this
- 00:22:47is just a better version of it where it
- 00:22:49takes all the actual information and
- 00:22:50just gives you the end result so it
- 00:22:52makes a ton of sense they're doing this
- 00:22:54and the technology has finally allowed
- 00:22:56them to do this okay so let's get to the
- 00:22:59I don't know $64,000 Question million
- 00:23:01dollar question what should people do
- 00:23:02what should people do to be successful
- 00:23:04in this new paradigm that as you're
- 00:23:06describing is like in motion like it's
- 00:23:09just starting to now happen and it may
- 00:23:12be catching people off guard because
- 00:23:14they've thought it's already been out
- 00:23:15and things are okay and you're saying
- 00:23:16it's actually starting to actually move
- 00:23:19quicker I I think it's fascinating I'm
- 00:23:21honored to be one of the few marketers
- 00:23:23on your product part cusk but I think of
- 00:23:26I think of SEO as a product and I think
- 00:23:29the product managers are the people that
- 00:23:30should be thinking about this SEO
- 00:23:33question because it's a product question
- 00:23:35it's there are users that are coming in
- 00:23:37from the search channel what is the
- 00:23:40product that I need to create for them
- 00:23:42what is the experience that I need to
- 00:23:43create for them so typically was thought
- 00:23:45of as a marketing challenge of the
- 00:23:47product people have created this thing
- 00:23:49for me and now I expect the marketers to
- 00:23:54go and do the SEO thing for it but
- 00:23:56there's a mismatch so for example I find
- 00:23:59very often when I talk to SAS companies
- 00:24:02I don't think SAS in general should do
- 00:24:03SEO but very often when I talk to SAS
- 00:24:06companies they have created a product
- 00:24:08for whatever user and then the marketers
- 00:24:11are expect to make that product fit into
- 00:24:15the thing that the search results are
- 00:24:17around and it doesn't work because
- 00:24:19that's not what they're looking for no
- 00:24:21one asked the question of what it is
- 00:24:23that they're looking for so now that SEO
- 00:24:26is changing and you really need to think
- 00:24:27about this mid funnel and you need to
- 00:24:29think about a a user experience and a
- 00:24:31buyer experience when they're doing the
- 00:24:32search I think it all comes together and
- 00:24:35this is where the product people now
- 00:24:36need to think about how do we position
- 00:24:39this to the user that is not going to
- 00:24:41find out about this from a social
- 00:24:43channel the user that's not going to be
- 00:24:45attracted by an ad the user that's not
- 00:24:47going to discover this tool from a trade
- 00:24:49show this is a user that's doing their
- 00:24:50own self-discovery journey and this is
- 00:24:54what is what is the thing they're
- 00:24:56looking for and how do we position this
- 00:24:58product in a way that they're going to
- 00:24:59find it so that's what everyone should
- 00:25:03be doing product really collaborating
- 00:25:05with marketing and discovering what is
- 00:25:08it that the user wants and showcasing
- 00:25:10that and I was recently talking to a
- 00:25:12company in a health space they have an
- 00:25:14app it's a health app and we talked
- 00:25:16about their marketing their marketing
- 00:25:18was their SEO in general was they write
- 00:25:20thousands and thousands of blog posts AI
- 00:25:23has allowed them to do things they
- 00:25:24should never have done they write
- 00:25:25thousands of blog posts about health in
- 00:25:27general and then they wanted me to I
- 00:25:29told them they shouldn't do that in
- 00:25:31general but they wanted me to experience
- 00:25:32their product so they gave me a code to
- 00:25:34download their app and their app is
- 00:25:36awful it's a bad product so they're
- 00:25:39trying to do marketing that doesn't fit
- 00:25:41for a product that doesn't do the thing
- 00:25:43they say it's going to do they if they
- 00:25:46fix the product and understand the user
- 00:25:49now it becomes well if I'm a user
- 00:25:51looking for this product what are they
- 00:25:53looking for how do we showcase that
- 00:25:55again in the mid funnel can you help us
- 00:25:57make this more real maybe go through an
- 00:25:59example of a product you worked on or
- 00:26:01one that's doing this really well in
- 00:26:03terms of going from hey they they want
- 00:26:06our product what's the journey look like
- 00:26:08what's a good example of that so the
- 00:26:11earliest example of where I sort of
- 00:26:13discovered on this process was I got
- 00:26:16about 10 years ago I met the the CEO of
- 00:26:18zapier way Foster and he was uh a
- 00:26:22cooworker of mine had invested in his
- 00:26:23company and he asked me to meet with him
- 00:26:25to just discuss SEO they doing something
- 00:26:28that no one needed they they had this
- 00:26:31product which Zapped things together but
- 00:26:33no one needed because they didn't know
- 00:26:34it existed but people knew that they
- 00:26:37needed things to work together they just
- 00:26:38weren't looking for zap year so in in my
- 00:26:41discussions with them in our SEO
- 00:26:43experiments that we came up with we said
- 00:26:45well people are looking for let's say
- 00:26:47Gmail and they're looking for Salesforce
- 00:26:49they know that Gmail doesn't connect to
- 00:26:51Salesforce they know Salesforce doesn't
- 00:26:52connect to Gmail but they're looking for
- 00:26:54ways to pair it together so what if we
- 00:26:56created as a product a marketing way to
- 00:26:59Showcase that this product of zapping
- 00:27:02Gmail to Salesforce and Salesforce to
- 00:27:04Gmail exists and that's what we did so
- 00:27:06we built that at scale for everything
- 00:27:09that could work and that was the
- 00:27:10experiment that I did with them where
- 00:27:13everything would be available and it
- 00:27:16creates this flywheel of wow if Gmail
- 00:27:18can work with Salesforce what else does
- 00:27:20Gmail work with can it work with this
- 00:27:21other tool I have and that's an again
- 00:27:24early example where I stumbled upon this
- 00:27:25idea of people are looking for that
- 00:27:28other thing that you could do showcase
- 00:27:30the fact that your product could do this
- 00:27:32thing uh I had no idea that you were
- 00:27:34involved in zapier's SEO work that's one
- 00:27:35of the most legendary successes of SEO
- 00:27:38so uh very cool total accidental like
- 00:27:41whenever people ask me about
- 00:27:43programmatic SEO and I know we have to
- 00:27:44dig into that what programmatic SEO is
- 00:27:47they're like I want to imitate zapier so
- 00:27:49that was it's always great to mention
- 00:27:50that I helped through that that's
- 00:27:53amazing okay so the lesson there is you
- 00:27:55realize that the key you need like the
- 00:27:58opportunities to teach people what they
- 00:28:01could accomplish with this product like
- 00:28:03there's this awesome product doing
- 00:28:04amazing things they have a need they're
- 00:28:06searching for say it's like Gmail and
- 00:28:08Salesforce and how do we help them see
- 00:28:10there's something really interesting
- 00:28:11here yeah I actually have a better one
- 00:28:13for you great uh let's do it so I worked
- 00:28:18with Tinder for a couple years and I
- 00:28:19worked with you know when we talk one of
- 00:28:22the biggest challenges I've ever had
- 00:28:23with with SEO especially as a consultant
- 00:28:25is getting things done and I worked with
- 00:28:28amazing companies and there's great
- 00:28:30people but then they run into this wall
- 00:28:31so like in in my book I talk about one
- 00:28:33of the earlier stories I had of this
- 00:28:34where I worked with a
- 00:28:35company we I worked with I was hired by
- 00:28:38the CMO and we built out a great plan
- 00:28:41and then we go to the CEO who brings in
- 00:28:43the CTO to discuss our plan and the CTO
- 00:28:47says I don't have Engineers for this so
- 00:28:49you decide whether you want to F you
- 00:28:51work on the product or you want to work
- 00:28:52on this marketing thing you've done and
- 00:28:53then we didn't do anything because they
- 00:28:56never resourced it but I work with this
- 00:28:58really great product person at Tinder
- 00:29:00udy Milo he was the chief of growth and
- 00:29:03he really saw a problem where Tinder had
- 00:29:06never done SEO all of tinder's inbound
- 00:29:09came from the word Tinder and he's like
- 00:29:11there there has to be upside for SEO if
- 00:29:13they've never done it
- 00:29:15before so that he was convinced of that
- 00:29:19he was willing to drive forward on this
- 00:29:21idea so when we started working together
- 00:29:23the first thing we came up with is what
- 00:29:25is someone going to be searching when
- 00:29:27they look for Tinder and it's not online
- 00:29:30dating that's a single word we're not
- 00:29:31going to write out long form content
- 00:29:33around everything related to dating
- 00:29:35because that's that's not the Tinder
- 00:29:37product you're not reading a piece of
- 00:29:38content about how to fall in love and
- 00:29:40then somehow converting into Tinder but
- 00:29:43in our user research and in the
- 00:29:45discussions we had on what the
- 00:29:47investment we could make into SEO was we
- 00:29:49discovered that Tinder is a loneliness
- 00:29:51solving problem loneliness solving
- 00:29:53solution so you're lonely you've gone to
- 00:29:56a new city you don't know anybody you'd
- 00:29:58like to solve your loneliness problem so
- 00:30:00because you're in a new city it occurred
- 00:30:02to us that this is a local thing so
- 00:30:04we're going to look for anything related
- 00:30:06to local so we built out is if you look
- 00:30:10for online dating in many cities around
- 00:30:13the world this is beta it it you know it
- 00:30:16remained in its beta state but if you
- 00:30:19look for online dating in many cities
- 00:30:20around the world you're going to find a
- 00:30:22Tinder page which gives some examples of
- 00:30:25places you can go on a date and more
- 00:30:27than that it gives you Tinder as a
- 00:30:29solution to solve the the loneliness
- 00:30:31problem you have so what changes here
- 00:30:33with the rise of AI overviews and things
- 00:30:36like that is it this is where this is
- 00:30:39how future of SEO looks versus just
- 00:30:42keywords and endless block posts
- 00:30:44actually nothing changes here with AI
- 00:30:46overviews because if you're looking for
- 00:30:48you've gone to Dubai you've just you
- 00:30:51you've uh gone to Dubai it's a brand new
- 00:30:53country you've never been there before
- 00:30:55and you're lonely so you look for online
- 00:30:57dating in Du by and you're going to get
- 00:30:59you know again AI overviews might tell
- 00:31:01you what the dating scene is like it
- 00:31:03might tell you where to go on great
- 00:31:04dates however it doesn't allow you to
- 00:31:07solve the loneliness problem you have
- 00:31:09the loneliness problem you have is a mid
- 00:31:11or bottom of funnel problem you're still
- 00:31:13going to click on tinder's result no
- 00:31:15matter what the AI overview does so
- 00:31:17that's where I think SEO should be is
- 00:31:19you need to be in the buyer Journey with
- 00:31:21the SEO you're creating and it doesn't
- 00:31:24matter what AI overviews does or doesn't
- 00:31:26do because you're still solving the mid
- 00:31:27final problem with your SEO solution
- 00:31:30let's go in a direction I was going to
- 00:31:31say for later but it might be useful now
- 00:31:34which is say somebody's just sitting
- 00:31:36there at their desk thinking hey I want
- 00:31:37to I want to be Su I want to start doing
- 00:31:40some SEO I want to be successful at SEO
- 00:31:41I haven't really done a ton here and
- 00:31:44with this new world of AI and LMS what
- 00:31:47would be step one step two step three to
- 00:31:49move down a direction of starting to
- 00:31:51poke their toe in the water of SEO I I
- 00:31:54think Step One is the step that almost
- 00:31:56everyone misses on SEO
- 00:31:58which is be the user try to understand
- 00:32:01who your user is and there have been so
- 00:32:04many companies and Survey Monkey was a
- 00:32:05great example when I spent seven years
- 00:32:07at Survey Monkey and when everyone got
- 00:32:09onboarded at Survey Monkey they gave you
- 00:32:10a Survey Monkey account and told you
- 00:32:12that you should run a survey I think
- 00:32:14later in the later years they forced
- 00:32:16everyone in their onboarding time to use
- 00:32:18a survey run a survey with people in the
- 00:32:20company but before that no one did so
- 00:32:23they had this account and they never did
- 00:32:25a survey so they had zero customer
- 00:32:27empathy
- 00:32:28for why people use the tool and then
- 00:32:31when you think about it from a product
- 00:32:32to a marketing standpoint you're
- 00:32:33thinking about it as a work challenge
- 00:32:36rather than a customer empathy challenge
- 00:32:39so the first thing anybody should really
- 00:32:41do around anything that they're trying
- 00:32:44to do SEO is try to be that customer so
- 00:32:46if I'm a user of this SAS I'm building
- 00:32:49SAS and I want to I want to Market this
- 00:32:51tool what is a user going to look for
- 00:32:54what's the problem they're going to look
- 00:32:55for that would make them want to do a
- 00:32:58search and you earlier I referenced that
- 00:33:00I don't think most SAS tools should do
- 00:33:02SEO and the reason is because a lot of
- 00:33:04times when I talk to SAS companies about
- 00:33:05SEO I ask them this question and they
- 00:33:07give me a Blank Stare so if you can't
- 00:33:10answer the question about what is it
- 00:33:12that someone's going to do a search on
- 00:33:14then don't do SEO because SEO is about
- 00:33:17appealing to that user if you can
- 00:33:20understand what the user should do
- 00:33:21around looking for whatever product you
- 00:33:24have then that's the first step for SEO
- 00:33:27so who is this user who am I marketing
- 00:33:29to you're sort of creating this Persona
- 00:33:30in your mind step two is think about the
- 00:33:34asset you're going to create so pivoting
- 00:33:36over to way talks about Tinder so we
- 00:33:38understood that it was a user that was
- 00:33:40solving a loneliness problem any in the
- 00:33:42world because that's what Tinder does it
- 00:33:43solves that loneliness problem in any
- 00:33:45way you want of course and now we had to
- 00:33:48think about what is it that we're going
- 00:33:49to create we know it it should be Global
- 00:33:51of course we would know we want it to be
- 00:33:54programmatic which is something we
- 00:33:55should dig into like difference
- 00:33:56programmatic versus editorial we know we
- 00:33:58want to be programmatic because no one
- 00:33:59wants to in position of writing a page
- 00:34:01out for every town or every city or
- 00:34:03every neighborhood in the entire world
- 00:34:05so we want it to be programmatic what
- 00:34:07things do we need to pull into that and
- 00:34:10then the third step is really building
- 00:34:12and we're on a product podcast of course
- 00:34:14to the product people you're building
- 00:34:16the product for that SEO user so where
- 00:34:18do you get those inputs what does this
- 00:34:20page need to look like so the again the
- 00:34:22reason I think SEO needs to be on
- 00:34:23product is because the inputs for SEO
- 00:34:26aren't the way many people people think
- 00:34:28of SEO which is a piece of content
- 00:34:30optimized for Google based on the
- 00:34:31keywords I've chosen I think of it as a
- 00:34:34product which means you need design
- 00:34:36resources you need engineering resources
- 00:34:38of course you need a product manager to
- 00:34:40really oversee the building of this you
- 00:34:43need user research so it's again more
- 00:34:45than just a piece of content so going
- 00:34:47through those steps again it's
- 00:34:48understand who your user is decide what
- 00:34:50it is that you need to create for that
- 00:34:52user and the third is Envision this
- 00:34:55product so I think there's a really
- 00:34:57powerful point here that might be people
- 00:34:59might not get which is the the user
- 00:35:03needs to be thinking of something they
- 00:35:05will go to Google to search for to find
- 00:35:06your product so it's if there if nobody
- 00:35:09is searching for the thing that you're
- 00:35:12building in some way there's not going
- 00:35:14to be an opportunity for you to win an
- 00:35:16SEO or and benefit from SEO is there any
- 00:35:18examples that come to mind to you of B2B
- 00:35:21SAS companies that just like this is not
- 00:35:23there's no SEO opportunity here of just
- 00:35:25like no one searching for this thing
- 00:35:27most of
- 00:35:30I mean I one of my first Consulting
- 00:35:32clients right when I left suring monkey
- 00:35:34was mix panel so I I mean I just left my
- 00:35:38job and I'm going to take any client
- 00:35:39that I have I have some awful clients
- 00:35:41that I took but mix panel was not an
- 00:35:42awful client it was just a eye openening
- 00:35:44client we were trying to do SEO and I'm
- 00:35:46doing SEO in exactly the way that CEO
- 00:35:48had told me SEO should work and he was
- 00:35:50going to do it himself so I told them
- 00:35:52the keywords we we came up with the
- 00:35:54content we built the links we did all
- 00:35:55the stuff SEO was supposed to do and it
- 00:35:57didn't work
- 00:35:58and we were sitting there and and I
- 00:36:00asked them to like show me the user
- 00:36:02Journey like they have a tool that does
- 00:36:04it that's what mix panel does like so
- 00:36:06someone clicks on a search result and
- 00:36:08they land on this piece of content which
- 00:36:10we did research and we know people look
- 00:36:12for but why is it that it doesn't
- 00:36:13convert and then I realized that there
- 00:36:16were other problems to this conversion
- 00:36:17which is mix panel is a product you
- 00:36:20integrate in your entire company you
- 00:36:22don't just do a quick Google for it and
- 00:36:24be like Oh analytics yeah I'm going to
- 00:36:25tell everyone we got to do it and it's
- 00:36:26going to be live tomorrow also mix panel
- 00:36:29is expensive so again it's the kind of
- 00:36:31thing that there's friction of you don't
- 00:36:32just click from a search result and then
- 00:36:34decide to just purchase it you can't
- 00:36:36even purchase it on your credit card I
- 00:36:37don't believe so those are the issues
- 00:36:41and that's why I think SAS is not the
- 00:36:44best fit for SEO because if you think
- 00:36:45about that Journey the problem doesn't
- 00:36:48necessarily exist the SAS solves the
- 00:36:50problem but only once you know that
- 00:36:52problem exists and getting people to
- 00:36:54know that problem exists is typically
- 00:36:56not an SEO challenge it's typically a
- 00:36:58brand challenge you know you make a a
- 00:37:00viral video of you didn't realize that
- 00:37:02you could use this tool we've created to
- 00:37:04solve your problem but no one is
- 00:37:07necessarily searching for a problem they
- 00:37:08didn't know they had or a solution they
- 00:37:10didn't know could exist so that's that's
- 00:37:13where the breakoff is and then the other
- 00:37:15issue of course is now they know the
- 00:37:17problem exists but it's not an SE
- 00:37:19Journey so I had another eye opening
- 00:37:21experience early in covid when I was you
- 00:37:25know everyone was home and there wasn't
- 00:37:26a lot of things to do Google reached out
- 00:37:28to me about a a role on their team on
- 00:37:31Google Cloud for doing SEO and there
- 00:37:33wasn't a chance I was going to take it
- 00:37:35and it seemed like an interesting thing
- 00:37:36to go through a hiring Loop and stay at
- 00:37:38home so I it was I had a fascinating
- 00:37:41experience interviewing because every
- 00:37:42time the the uh the first it was the
- 00:37:45hiring manager and every time was
- 00:37:46someone on that team that that started
- 00:37:48the interview they said are there any
- 00:37:49questions that you have for me and then
- 00:37:51I spent the next 45 minutes asking them
- 00:37:53all the questions like why are you doing
- 00:37:55SEO what kind of keywords would you want
- 00:37:57to do what does this SEO Journey look
- 00:37:59like because for Google Cloud they only
- 00:38:01have two competitors Amazon and
- 00:38:03Microsoft and no one is going to do a
- 00:38:05search and be like Oh Google's number
- 00:38:07one for this term I searched let me just
- 00:38:10go buy it there's a there's a
- 00:38:12decision-making process you bring
- 00:38:13there's a committee decision so SEO sort
- 00:38:16of made no sense for that even to be
- 00:38:18included as a part of a marketing
- 00:38:19channel and you know at a grand scale
- 00:38:23Google Cloud should not be doing SEO at
- 00:38:25a small scale a lot of SAS tools
- 00:38:26shouldn't be doing SEO because there
- 00:38:27isn't necessarily an SEO journey I get a
- 00:38:30lot of push back from companies when I
- 00:38:32tell them they're like look at all the
- 00:38:33SEO we've done but that Plateau is
- 00:38:35really quickly this is really
- 00:38:37fascinating and just to maybe reframe
- 00:38:38what you're saying because there's kind
- 00:38:40of a couple elements of this it's not
- 00:38:42necessarily that people aren't searching
- 00:38:44Google for the problem so I'm thinking
- 00:38:46of like vant sock 2 stuff it's not like
- 00:38:48people aren't sock 2 certification it's
- 00:38:51not like they're searching they're not
- 00:38:53searching it's and what I'm hearing is
- 00:38:55the bigger issue is they they were never
- 00:38:57buy your product from that experience
- 00:38:59and that Journey like it may educate
- 00:39:02them a little bit and may teach them
- 00:39:03oant exists but they're never going to
- 00:39:05become customers they need to talk to a
- 00:39:07salesperson they need to involve a bunch
- 00:39:09of stakeholders it's basically a sales
- 00:39:11motion it's not a product at SEO motion
- 00:39:15yes is that right yes pulling on that
- 00:39:17thread a little bit further Beyond maybe
- 00:39:19even B2B just how does one decide if SEO
- 00:39:22is an opportunity for you and also just
- 00:39:24how much should you invest in this
- 00:39:26opportunity just to explore it
- 00:39:28so we we have to really put away the
- 00:39:30myth that SEO is free because it's
- 00:39:32absolutely not free there's a cost in
- 00:39:35time there's a cost and resources and of
- 00:39:37course there's the direct expense for
- 00:39:39SEO so if you're deciding that you
- 00:39:41should do SEO so now we have to go
- 00:39:43through this evaluation again this is
- 00:39:45where I think of it as a product where
- 00:39:47you have this all these product ideas
- 00:39:49and what should you spend time and money
- 00:39:50on so SEO is a channel you may or may
- 00:39:53not want to invest in so say there's a
- 00:39:55SAS tool and they're convinced there is
- 00:39:58an SEO Journey people do search for this
- 00:40:01solution you know when I was at Survey
- 00:40:02Monkey we we generated couple hundred
- 00:40:04million dollars a year off of organic
- 00:40:06traffic because it was a premium tool
- 00:40:09where you search for the problem the
- 00:40:10problem you find the solution it's free
- 00:40:13you sign up for it if it works for you
- 00:40:16you end up paying and that's the revenue
- 00:40:17we generated from organic so say there
- 00:40:20is a journey so people do search for it
- 00:40:22and it makes sense to invest in SEO now
- 00:40:25is when you'll decide how much should
- 00:40:27you invest in it and how you should
- 00:40:29invest in it so typically wait again for
- 00:40:32serving monkey it was around creating
- 00:40:33content it was around templates it
- 00:40:35wasn't very expensive but let's say
- 00:40:37there's a company that does not have a
- 00:40:39Content team they don't have a product
- 00:40:41yet that people are going to search for
- 00:40:43they don't have a product manager that's
- 00:40:46going to be overseeing this SEO process
- 00:40:48so say you need to hire this PM or you
- 00:40:50want to hire an agency a typical SEO
- 00:40:52agency I mean you're not going to spend
- 00:40:54$500 on an SEO agency it's going to be
- 00:40:56up of $10,000 just because that's the
- 00:40:59cost of someone's time so it's $110,000
- 00:41:02a month $120,000 a year gets even more
- 00:41:04expensive if you have a full-time
- 00:41:06employee so that's one expense you're
- 00:41:08going to outline then you're going to
- 00:41:10add in all the supporting resources you
- 00:41:12need a CMS that costs money you need an
- 00:41:14engineer to support them that costs
- 00:41:16money you need a potentially design you
- 00:41:19need content so can really add up
- 00:41:21quickly and now you look at that
- 00:41:22investment and you say for this tool if
- 00:41:25I invested a million dollar a year in
- 00:41:28SEO do I expect to make back a million
- 00:41:31dollars a year soon right SEO will
- 00:41:33always make back money for if it's the
- 00:41:35right fit but soon so SAS tools
- 00:41:38especially startups they need to make
- 00:41:39that money back soon or if they took
- 00:41:41that exact same million dollars and put
- 00:41:43it into brand ads or they put it into
- 00:41:46influencer campaigns or they put it into
- 00:41:48just traditional paid marketing on meta
- 00:41:51and Google would you make that million
- 00:41:53dollars or million1 back faster and
- 00:41:56that's where I think the valuation
- 00:41:57should happen instead of this default
- 00:41:59well I just got my funding I need to
- 00:42:02invest in SEO because it's free and
- 00:42:04everyone does SEO and look my
- 00:42:05competitors do SEO it should really be
- 00:42:07this thoughtful strategic
- 00:42:09decision-making process of how much will
- 00:42:11this cost me all in and is this the
- 00:42:14right use of funds amazing so so I think
- 00:42:17this is really important it's not that
- 00:42:19you won't benefit from SEO it's not that
- 00:42:21SEO isn't an opportunity it's that you
- 00:42:24have much bigger opportunities in other
- 00:42:26areas most likely if you're B2B SAS
- 00:42:28companies because the journey isn't
- 00:42:30fully online you're not going to convert
- 00:42:32by just reading a bunch of pages super
- 00:42:34fascinating yeah yeah there was once a
- 00:42:35company I met there was a SAS tool they
- 00:42:37were in a gardening space is it like
- 00:42:39they made a SAS for gardeners and they
- 00:42:42were insistent on doing SEO and they
- 00:42:43asked me to look at a proposal they got
- 00:42:45from an agency for $15,000 a month and
- 00:42:47it was all content and then I I asked
- 00:42:50them how they their users found them how
- 00:42:51did they get all the customers they had
- 00:42:53that paid them how did they find them
- 00:42:55they said they go to these gardening
- 00:42:56shows around the country and they have a
- 00:42:59booth and each Booth costs them $10,000
- 00:43:02so I said instead of spending
- 00:43:04$115,000 on SEO you could get you can go
- 00:43:08to all these shows for the exact same
- 00:43:10budget and you get users who are
- 00:43:12interested they're in Market they try
- 00:43:15your tool out at the booth and then they
- 00:43:16leave and their leads that you could
- 00:43:18follow up with instead of investing in
- 00:43:20me like hope it works it's sort of free
- 00:43:22there are searches for it but it's not
- 00:43:24the right searches the takeaway here is
- 00:43:27uh if you're thinking about whether SEO
- 00:43:29is worth an investment for you and you
- 00:43:31see all these other companies doing SEO
- 00:43:33winning with SEO think about how much
- 00:43:36will this actually cost us and and I
- 00:43:39think the most important takeaway for me
- 00:43:40here is if you don't think it'll convert
- 00:43:43online if you think sales is the core
- 00:43:45motion of the process it's probably not
- 00:43:47a good Roi for you absolutely yeah
- 00:43:50really think about what are the
- 00:43:51tradeoffs again from a product
- 00:43:53standpoint there's always tradeoffs so
- 00:43:55what are the trade-offs to investing in
- 00:43:56this Channel versus another Channel and
- 00:43:59I think like what I've seen there's all
- 00:44:00the the way I think about it there's
- 00:44:01four actual growth engine there four
- 00:44:03core growth engines SEO paid verality
- 00:44:06and sales and what I find is eventually
- 00:44:09large companies do them all like unless
- 00:44:11you're a consumer you don't do sale and
- 00:44:13so it's not like SEO should you should
- 00:44:15never do it's I think the main point
- 00:44:16here is earlier stage when you have
- 00:44:18limited resources probably not the best
- 00:44:20use of your time I I think there are
- 00:44:22companies that should probably never do
- 00:44:23SEO going back to what I said in Google
- 00:44:25Cloud I don't think that Google could
- 00:44:27ever say really pinpoint that there was
- 00:44:30a customer that they got purely from SEO
- 00:44:33and you're going to do all sorts of
- 00:44:34weighted attribution and maybe that
- 00:44:36person did discover Google cloud from a
- 00:44:38piece of content or piece of SEO asset
- 00:44:40but they never would have converted with
- 00:44:42all those other things that they they've
- 00:44:43touched and it's not like you're saying
- 00:44:46don't be on the internet and don't make
- 00:44:49it easy for people to understand who you
- 00:44:50are don't have like a great site don't
- 00:44:52have like other Pages writing about you
- 00:44:54it's just don't you don't need to spend
- 00:44:56time optimizing the search result for
- 00:44:58Google Cloud you're not going to benefit
- 00:45:00significantly from that work yes I mean
- 00:45:03again go really digging into this user
- 00:45:05Journey piece I don't think restaurants
- 00:45:07typically should have a website not only
- 00:45:09should they not do SEO but I don't know
- 00:45:11that they should have a website because
- 00:45:12if if you think about the buyer Journey
- 00:45:14for a person looking for food they don't
- 00:45:17typically go to a website so if you're
- 00:45:19looking for pizza and again a lot of
- 00:45:21pizza shops have websites but if you're
- 00:45:23looking for pizza you're going to Google
- 00:45:25Maps door Dash Uber Eats you're not
- 00:45:27going on Google and saying Pizza near me
- 00:45:30and then browsing the websites and
- 00:45:32making a decision about where to eat
- 00:45:34lunch again if you're choosing how to
- 00:45:36cater your kids's birthday party that
- 00:45:38might be a different thing but you're
- 00:45:39not browsing and saying these are the
- 00:45:41places I'm going to go right now but
- 00:45:43more than that it's expensive and
- 00:45:45there's no way that that pizza shop
- 00:45:46knows that the website they have with
- 00:45:48the soft music playing and their menu
- 00:45:50that comes up and Flash which is
- 00:45:52expensive does a single thing for them
- 00:45:55most of their orders are going to come
- 00:45:57again through those other platforms yeah
- 00:45:59I hate restaurant websites uh one thing
- 00:46:01I real I read once that explains why
- 00:46:04restaurant websites are so bad is what
- 00:46:06restaurant owners are big on just like
- 00:46:07what is the experience when someone
- 00:46:08enters my restaurant that they go
- 00:46:10through with the vibe and they do that
- 00:46:12on the website they're like here's the
- 00:46:14music and here's the imagery and here's
- 00:46:16the animations and nobody wants that on
- 00:46:18on their website just like give me the
- 00:46:20hours and location and your menu you
- 00:46:23mentioned a couple things that I want to
- 00:46:24drill into a little bit so one is just
- 00:46:26how long should take for you to see
- 00:46:28results two is just expectations of what
- 00:46:30is good conversion look like what do it
- 00:46:32tells you this is actually a a journey
- 00:46:36that could work for us well enough that
- 00:46:37SEO might work so maybe those two
- 00:46:39questions so those will be custom for
- 00:46:42anything and I hate to use the word it
- 00:46:43depends because I I think whenever
- 00:46:45Consultants say oh it depends they're
- 00:46:46just you know they're throwing their
- 00:46:48hands up and saying I don't really know
- 00:46:49I'm not I'm I don't have an opinion on
- 00:46:51this it's like when you go to a doctor
- 00:46:53and the doctor's like well it depends I
- 00:46:54mean you could be dying or you could
- 00:46:55just you know need to take a nap
- 00:46:57right so there's a there's a custom
- 00:47:00answer here and it it comes down to what
- 00:47:02the company is and what the expectations
- 00:47:04are so how long it takes that depends on
- 00:47:08what you're building so if you're if
- 00:47:10there's an opport like again with Tinder
- 00:47:13took us a while to actually build
- 00:47:14anything so it took us all this time to
- 00:47:16build for id8 then build and then to see
- 00:47:18results but once we built and I love
- 00:47:21working with big companies that are
- 00:47:22well-known Brands because what we build
- 00:47:25as soon as it's available on the web
- 00:47:27it's like this turning a a huge ship it
- 00:47:30starts driving revenue and it starts
- 00:47:31being super effective because it's there
- 00:47:34something didn't exist and now it exists
- 00:47:35and it drives Revenue smaller companies
- 00:47:37it may take many months before Google
- 00:47:40notices it may take many months before
- 00:47:41the demand is there like with zapier I
- 00:47:44think it took them a couple years before
- 00:47:45they even saw any results because
- 00:47:47nobody's looking for it so it comes down
- 00:47:49to what it is it that you're building
- 00:47:51and how quickly users will come and find
- 00:47:55and need that solution
- 00:47:57then as as far as what the expectations
- 00:47:59are on conversion that also is really
- 00:48:02depends on what it is that you're
- 00:48:03looking for there's uh some companies
- 00:48:05are building media and they they write I
- 00:48:08mean again I think most companies should
- 00:48:10just not write a lot of content unless
- 00:48:12they're Media company but if you are
- 00:48:13building media and you're monetizing
- 00:48:15that content from a media standpoint so
- 00:48:17maybe leads maybe clicks off the page
- 00:48:19and Del leads or maybe it's CPM
- 00:48:21advertising so then your conversion is
- 00:48:24what you're trying to do with SEO is get
- 00:48:25a lot of Patriots because the more patri
- 00:48:26you get the more clicks off that page
- 00:48:28you get into something else if you're a
- 00:48:30SAS tool then your conversion should
- 00:48:33absolutely be whatever a mql should be
- 00:48:37so you and and again I I think most
- 00:48:39people don't do this correctly with SEO
- 00:48:41they use the wrong conversion metric
- 00:48:43which is top of funnel ranking oh I'm
- 00:48:45ranking my SEO is successful I'm number
- 00:48:47one for this instead of how does this
- 00:48:50benefit me there was a company I was
- 00:48:52working with uh Sasol they're in a
- 00:48:54two-sided Marketplace they worked with
- 00:48:57in an HR space so they on they only
- 00:48:59monetized one side of that HR space but
- 00:49:02all the traffic was on the other side of
- 00:49:04the HR space so I when we were talking
- 00:49:06about their SEO conversion problems I
- 00:49:08suggested that they delete all the
- 00:49:10content that was on the wrong side of
- 00:49:11that Marketplace because they didn't
- 00:49:13convert at all and there's no and this
- 00:49:16is a common
- 00:49:17misconception people will think you get
- 00:49:19a benefit from traffic Google Sees oh I
- 00:49:21get all this traffic from search they
- 00:49:23think I'm a very good website so even
- 00:49:25though none of this converts for me
- 00:49:26should have a Blog because blogs are
- 00:49:28good it doesn't really work like that I
- 00:49:31mean maybe if you're this massive
- 00:49:33website and I don't know you're let's
- 00:49:34say get millions and millions of visits
- 00:49:36then you can build some sort of
- 00:49:37authority and some good experience in
- 00:49:39Google and now you can launch something
- 00:49:40else and you don't have to worry about
- 00:49:41needing to build up that Authority but
- 00:49:43generally driving traffic to something
- 00:49:45that doesn't convert you for you
- 00:49:47wouldn't be a good idea so really
- 00:49:50understanding what is it that you're
- 00:49:51trying to do with SEO traffic that's
- 00:49:53your conversion metric so could be mqls
- 00:49:55could be page views could be dollar
- 00:49:57conversions it could be people picking
- 00:50:00up the phone or watching the video it
- 00:50:02but it has to be some sort of conversion
- 00:50:04so for a startup it might mean that they
- 00:50:08you're getting links I mean at at a
- 00:50:09minimum people reading your content
- 00:50:11deciding to link to you and give you
- 00:50:13social shares that might be something
- 00:50:14you put in a pitch deck whatever it is
- 00:50:16there has to be a conversion metric that
- 00:50:18matters for the business so just to give
- 00:50:21someone that's starting to do this
- 00:50:24something concrete to look at when you
- 00:50:25come to a startup and help them with SEO
- 00:50:27what do you usually track as a sign this
- 00:50:31is working that we should keep investing
- 00:50:34what's like what are the couple metrics
- 00:50:35you look at most the first is really
- 00:50:38understanding what is it that they care
- 00:50:39about so and rankings could be something
- 00:50:42they care about if someone else cares
- 00:50:44about it so for example if a they're
- 00:50:47going to put in their pitch deck we're
- 00:50:48number one for this tool and investors
- 00:50:51they don't know that that doesn't
- 00:50:52convert so that might be something that
- 00:50:54we should care about they should they
- 00:50:56should be number one for that
- 00:50:58tool if it's mqls so they just need
- 00:51:00people filling out lead forms so really
- 00:51:03understanding who it is that they're
- 00:51:04trying to attract with SEO that's the
- 00:51:06metric we're going to use and again I
- 00:51:08don't know why SEO this happens with SEO
- 00:51:11but not other any other channel no one
- 00:51:14doing paid marketing will ever say this
- 00:51:16is how many times I'm number one on this
- 00:51:18search or this is how many clicks I get
- 00:51:20or look at how much I spent there's
- 00:51:22really a we spend this and we're this
- 00:51:24efficient this is what we drive from
- 00:51:26that and SEO really needs that same
- 00:51:28rigor so what I'm hearing is look at if
- 00:51:31you're in B2B leads coming in through
- 00:51:33SEO track that or uh rank potentially if
- 00:51:36that's like a vanity thing you can show
- 00:51:38investors and you're saying traffic
- 00:51:39alone because usually in decks I see and
- 00:51:41investor updates almost always the
- 00:51:43metric I see is traffic we're getting
- 00:51:44through SEO yeah total waste of
- 00:51:48time amazing yeah it it's I mean l
- 00:51:51there's a reason for it so if you're a
- 00:51:52media company and traffic means that
- 00:51:55that number keeps going up then yes it
- 00:51:57matters but if you are driving leads and
- 00:52:00that that that traffic number goes up
- 00:52:03you're not driving more leads from SEO
- 00:52:04you're getting worthless traffic it
- 00:52:05doesn't help the business awesome okay
- 00:52:09uh back to the question just how long it
- 00:52:10takes just to give someone something
- 00:52:11here that they can tell that can tell
- 00:52:13them when it makes sense to keep going
- 00:52:15or move on say you're just like taking a
- 00:52:17shot at SEO how long should you give it
- 00:52:19to like make a decision this is working
- 00:52:21for us or not or is it always there's
- 00:52:23always something here keep working like
- 00:52:25how do you decide keep doing or not when
- 00:52:28you're building out an SEO effort and
- 00:52:29I'm keep going back to this it's a
- 00:52:31product so you're building out a product
- 00:52:33road map and you're creating Milestones
- 00:52:35so you say we're it's going to take us
- 00:52:37this first month to id8 on what it is
- 00:52:40that we're building it's going to in the
- 00:52:41second month we're going to build out a
- 00:52:43PRD for the engineers to start working
- 00:52:46on in the third month they're going to
- 00:52:48start working and they're going to ship
- 00:52:49this if you start missing all those
- 00:52:51Milestones so and then this is a common
- 00:52:53problem in Consulting in general you
- 00:52:55miss all those milestones and then
- 00:52:56someone will say well we've been working
- 00:52:58together for six months and we have
- 00:52:59nothing to show for it and you can point
- 00:53:01very specifically to all those
- 00:53:03Milestones that were missed so it that's
- 00:53:05the result of not shipping or not
- 00:53:08meeting the Milestones that the SEO
- 00:53:10didn't work so as you're meeting those
- 00:53:12Milestones you can say well we we
- 00:53:14launched and our expectation was that
- 00:53:16after the first month of launching we
- 00:53:18would have X amount of pages indexed did
- 00:53:21we meet or did we miss that Milestone
- 00:53:23and then you can say SEO is working at a
- 00:53:25small scale and I've seen in many
- 00:53:28companies it takes a really long time
- 00:53:31but eventually when you look back you
- 00:53:32see like this hockey stick but while
- 00:53:34you're in it you don't necessarily see
- 00:53:37that awesome okay okay let me showare an
- 00:53:40example of one that worked really
- 00:53:41quickly so uh this was also a an
- 00:53:44interesting one and I was at Survey
- 00:53:46Monkey and I was introduced to the CEO
- 00:53:49of quora who was interested in doing
- 00:53:51more SEO so Kora had never done SEO or
- 00:53:54never done SEO effectively from a
- 00:53:56product standpoint and there were a
- 00:53:58couple things I was able to recommend to
- 00:54:00them and within 3 months they had
- 00:54:02quadruple traffic so it really will
- 00:54:05depend on what is it that's holding
- 00:54:07things back in kora's case they weren't
- 00:54:10showing any answers so they were really
- 00:54:11pushing to get people to log in before
- 00:54:13they saw any answers so I encouraged
- 00:54:16them to show the answers yes they were
- 00:54:18going to be giving away answers for free
- 00:54:20but they were also going to be giving
- 00:54:21answers to Google so that was number one
- 00:54:23that they were able to quadruple traffic
- 00:54:25and the second thing
- 00:54:26is they had no way that Google could
- 00:54:28navigate within the site so when you
- 00:54:31came to Kora and it's like this again so
- 00:54:33they reversed the suggestion I made but
- 00:54:35it was it I think it was 12 years ago so
- 00:54:37when you came to Kora and when you come
- 00:54:39to Kora today you see related questions
- 00:54:41so you see a question and then there's
- 00:54:43related questions and that's the way a
- 00:54:45bot or a human will navigate through the
- 00:54:47site if they create a site map they did
- 00:54:50this in the past and if cor is listening
- 00:54:52they should do this again if you create
- 00:54:54a categorized sitemap where you can say
- 00:54:56these are all the questions on health
- 00:54:57and from this sitemap again it's HTML
- 00:55:00sitemap not just an XML sitemap and a
- 00:55:02way even a user could navigate through
- 00:55:04it this is health and this is Health
- 00:55:06page one and Health page two and you can
- 00:55:08navigate through this entire site then a
- 00:55:10search engine could navigate through the
- 00:55:11entire site and all of their questions
- 00:55:13and answers are discoverable so when I
- 00:55:16made that suggestion to them within a
- 00:55:17couple months they were able to
- 00:55:18quadruple traffic there's so much here
- 00:55:21and there's so many valuable insights
- 00:55:23one that I think is really recurring
- 00:55:24that I think is really important to
- 00:55:25people is the point that you're making
- 00:55:27about your SEO content pages should
- 00:55:31solve should be a product AKA should
- 00:55:33solve problems for people as they're
- 00:55:35trying to understand the space and this
- 00:55:37potential problem they have so to
- 00:55:40correct me if I'm wrong but kind of the
- 00:55:42advice you're sharing is there's less
- 00:55:44opportunity in just generating tons of
- 00:55:45blog posts that just have a bunch of
- 00:55:48content and the opportunities more
- 00:55:50things like zapier and canva with
- 00:55:53templates and notion and core hour was
- 00:55:56just like here's the answer it's just
- 00:55:57like actually help them solve the
- 00:55:59problem and with that here's how our
- 00:56:02product can help you solve that problem
- 00:56:03further is that it's really building a
- 00:56:06product around what the company is
- 00:56:08attempting to monetize so canva is
- 00:56:11building templates because then they're
- 00:56:13going on to monetize that templates by
- 00:56:15having other people build off those
- 00:56:17templates with upgrades and
- 00:56:18subscriptions but if if a company was
- 00:56:22like let's say there was an Enterprise
- 00:56:23version of Cana and they didn't monetize
- 00:56:25those temp so putting out a bunch of
- 00:56:27free content on the internet that just
- 00:56:29looked good wouldn't benefit so it
- 00:56:32always comes down to what is it what is
- 00:56:34the product that you want to use so
- 00:56:35going to mentioned the templates we did
- 00:56:37Survey Monkey a survey product if
- 00:56:39someone looked for a template of a
- 00:56:41survey they wanted to make a survey so
- 00:56:44if we were not a survey product and we
- 00:56:46just monetized off a survey templates
- 00:56:47that would not have done anything for us
- 00:56:49so copying someone else's version of
- 00:56:51programmatic doesn't do anything and
- 00:56:53generally doing programmatic for the
- 00:56:55sake of programmatic so just to have
- 00:56:58content wouldn't do anything unless that
- 00:57:00programmatic fed you into exactly what
- 00:57:02your product did so zapier they did
- 00:57:04programmatic it feeds you into making
- 00:57:06other zaps between different products
- 00:57:09Tinder we did programmatic it fed you
- 00:57:12into oh You' like to solve your lonely
- 00:57:14we showed you that your loneliness
- 00:57:16problem is solvable in the city you're
- 00:57:17in you have to solve that problem by
- 00:57:20downloading the Tinder app and I've
- 00:57:22never used Tinder only used it from a
- 00:57:24marketing standpoint but if you Tinder
- 00:57:26Gates you so if you'd like to get the
- 00:57:28advanced Tinder experience you have to
- 00:57:30pay and again there it's all part of
- 00:57:33that buyer journey and anything you're
- 00:57:35building SEO for it has to be a piece of
- 00:57:37that buyer Journey so programmatic blog
- 00:57:39posts anything you're doing if there is
- 00:57:41no product Journey for there's no user
- 00:57:43Journey it just stops that's an amazing
- 00:57:46clarification so again it's another
- 00:57:48point you've been making of traffic
- 00:57:50alone is not valuable if it doesn't
- 00:57:52convert and so you can look at a canva
- 00:57:55you can look at no a table with all
- 00:57:57these templates copy that but if that
- 00:57:58isn't the thing people will buy from you
- 00:58:00and monetize it's not going to be worth
- 00:58:03doing yes awesome I'm excited to chat
- 00:58:06with Christina Gilbert the founder of
- 00:58:08one schema one of our longtime podcast
- 00:58:10sponsors hi Christina yes thank you for
- 00:58:13having me on Lenny what is the latest
- 00:58:16with one schema I know you now work with
- 00:58:18some of my favorite companies like ramp
- 00:58:20vant scale and Watershed I heard that
- 00:58:23you just launched a new product to help
- 00:58:25product teams import csvs from
- 00:58:27especially tricky systems like erps yes
- 00:58:30so we just launched one scheme of file
- 00:58:32feeds which allows you to build an
- 00:58:33integration with any system in 15
- 00:58:35minutes as long as you can export a CSV
- 00:58:37to an SFTP folder we see our customers
- 00:58:40all the time getting stuck with hacks
- 00:58:41and workarounds and the product teams
- 00:58:43that we work with don't have to turn
- 00:58:44down prospects because their systems are
- 00:58:46too hard to integrate with we allow our
- 00:58:48customers to offer thousands of
- 00:58:49Integrations without involving their
- 00:58:50engineering team at all I can tell you
- 00:58:53that if my team had to build
- 00:58:54Integrations like this how nice would it
- 00:58:56be to be able to take the sopite road
- 00:58:58map and instead use something like one
- 00:58:59schema and not just to build it but also
- 00:59:02to maintain it forever absolutely Lenny
- 00:59:04we've heard so many horror stories of
- 00:59:06multi-day outages from even just a
- 00:59:08handful of bad records we are laser
- 00:59:10focused on integration reliability to
- 00:59:12help teams end all of those distractions
- 00:59:14that come up with Integrations we have a
- 00:59:16built-in validation layer that stops any
- 00:59:17bad data from entering your system and
- 00:59:19one schema will notify your team
- 00:59:20immediately of any data that looks
- 00:59:22incorrect I know that importing
- 00:59:24incorrect data can cause all kind a pain
- 00:59:26for your customers and quickly lose
- 00:59:28their trust Christina thank you for
- 00:59:30joining us and if you want to learn more
- 00:59:32head on over to on
- 00:59:34schema. that's on
- 00:59:37schema. okay so coming back to Ai and
- 00:59:40its impact on
- 00:59:42SEO can you use AI to help you with this
- 00:59:45and use AI to create content for you so
- 00:59:49AI is a tool everyone says AI is a tool
- 00:59:51it's not a solution so you can use AI to
- 00:59:55create content
- 00:59:56if the content you're creating is a part
- 00:59:59of that Journey so for example before AI
- 01:00:02content really came on the scene because
- 01:00:03ai's been around for a while you know
- 01:00:05Jasper's been around for a while
- 01:00:07writer's been around for a while and
- 01:00:09before chbt so before these tools a lot
- 01:00:13of ways that companies created content
- 01:00:14for cheap is they went on Fiverr and
- 01:00:16they went on upwork and they just
- 01:00:18created content so a lot of that content
- 01:00:21completely worthless so if you're just
- 01:00:23creating content for the sake of content
- 01:00:25and you paid someone an upward $50 for
- 01:00:27the content now you can use an AI tool
- 01:00:30and just create the content the same
- 01:00:32worthless content for free so AI as a
- 01:00:35tool is a tool creating something that's
- 01:00:37not necessarily useful for the end
- 01:00:40journey of the company and for the user
- 01:00:42journey in general however if the
- 01:00:45content you were creating was pretty
- 01:00:46useful and now you're using AI to create
- 01:00:49really useful content for cheaper and
- 01:00:50better of course you can use it so an
- 01:00:53example of a place you can use AI
- 01:00:54content is if you're an kmer site and
- 01:00:57you're selling your own products of
- 01:00:59course you can use AI content to write
- 01:01:01product descriptions it's not a Content
- 01:01:03website so there's um a lot of big
- 01:01:06companies out there and you know if
- 01:01:07anybody wants to to look at some of the
- 01:01:08e-commerce sites and how they do SEO a
- 01:01:11lot of them have large SEO teams you
- 01:01:13know the typical JC Penney the
- 01:01:15Nordstroms the Macy's they have a lot of
- 01:01:17content on their category pages but if
- 01:01:19you look at the the keywords that drive
- 01:01:21traffic to those pages it's the products
- 01:01:24on the pages so if you're looking for
- 01:01:26shoes the fact that a macy's.com page
- 01:01:29will have a lot of content about what
- 01:01:30shoes do doesn't do anything for the
- 01:01:33user they're just looking for shoes and
- 01:01:35then there shoes on the page and I think
- 01:01:36Macy's actually ranks pretty well on
- 01:01:38those kinds of things so using AI
- 01:01:40content to write more fluff content
- 01:01:43that's not necessary would just be a
- 01:01:45waste of time but using AI content to
- 01:01:47feed in a product and describe what that
- 01:01:49product is and maybe some features of
- 01:01:50the product which help a user that's not
- 01:01:53hurting your SEO because what you're
- 01:01:54trying to optimize for is the product
- 01:01:57and the product name itself got it so
- 01:02:00basically less don't use don't use AI to
- 01:02:04generate entire block posts I know
- 01:02:06people are doing this all over the place
- 01:02:08um but absolutely leverage AI to help
- 01:02:12you add to existing Pages descriptions
- 01:02:15titles things like that which I can see
- 01:02:17why Google like Google would have no
- 01:02:18idea that you were helped to write this
- 01:02:21thing with AI right if it's just like a
- 01:02:22small part of the page versus the entire
- 01:02:24page and in their their documentation
- 01:02:27they say that AI is itself is not the
- 01:02:29problem it's the helpfulness the
- 01:02:31usefulness of the content that would be
- 01:02:33a problem do you have any you don't have
- 01:02:35to name names or reveal anything but do
- 01:02:37you know of a bunch of companies using
- 01:02:38AI now to generate tons of high
- 01:02:41successful Pages High converting pages
- 01:02:42in some way in this way there's this uh
- 01:02:45hatred of AI content by users in general
- 01:02:49and I think once companies declare that
- 01:02:51they're using AI people get upset about
- 01:02:53it so I it was a Red Ventures company I
- 01:02:56think it was CET that said they were
- 01:02:57using AI to create content and I think
- 01:02:59they got in trouble because they said
- 01:03:01they using AI to create content but if
- 01:03:03they had not said they're using AI to
- 01:03:04create content I think their their
- 01:03:06entire model would have been very
- 01:03:08successful because there's no reason you
- 01:03:10can't take in they they take 10 products
- 01:03:13and they want to review 10 different
- 01:03:15products there's no reason you can't tie
- 01:03:16that all together have ai write the
- 01:03:18original piece of content and then have
- 01:03:20a human editor just review it I don't
- 01:03:23know years ago it's not AI but it's sort
- 01:03:25of like AI but there are sports websites
- 01:03:28that will take in a lot of the things
- 01:03:29that happen in the sports game to merge
- 01:03:32it all together into a piece of content
- 01:03:34if you look at any earnings reports on
- 01:03:36public companies it's sort of the same
- 01:03:38thing the company will issue they'll
- 01:03:40file the earnings report and then now
- 01:03:43it's AI but before AI it was basically
- 01:03:45like Mad Libs kind of content it would
- 01:03:47extract pieces the earnings report and
- 01:03:49would write a blog post which is
- 01:03:50actually fairly useful so I don't think
- 01:03:53there's an issue with it itself and I
- 01:03:55don't think user have an issue with it I
- 01:03:56think if you read that old piece of
- 01:03:58content again on earnings reports it's
- 01:04:00pretty obvious that it wasn't written by
- 01:04:01a financial journalist but it was useful
- 01:04:04you got a quick summary you didn't have
- 01:04:05to go into like the SEC and read an
- 01:04:07earnings report there's this guy Noah
- 01:04:09Smith he's on Twitter he's got a
- 01:04:11newsletter called No opinion this
- 01:04:13awesome and he had this tweet about how
- 01:04:15we're we're uh approaching an age of a
- 01:04:18ton of slop of content just a lot of
- 01:04:21really bad content generated by AI for
- 01:04:23better worse this is unrelated to SEO
- 01:04:25but it makes me think about just like
- 01:04:26how much bad stuff we're going to see
- 01:04:28but to your point it's doesn't matter
- 01:04:31whether was generated by a or not people
- 01:04:33will gravitate towards and Google will
- 01:04:36gravitate towards stuff that is useful
- 01:04:37and good whether it's written by people
- 01:04:39or not and this is a huge issue for
- 01:04:42Google because the amount of content
- 01:04:44being created is enormous and it it's
- 01:04:48growing exponentially and Google's
- 01:04:50trying to crawl everything they now have
- 01:04:52more content to crawl which becomes more
- 01:04:54expensive for Google and which is why
- 01:04:56there you have this backlash by Google
- 01:04:59against many websites because they're
- 01:05:00trying to clean the index to save their
- 01:05:02own costs and to protect the users from
- 01:05:04having to see this awful content the
- 01:05:06crazy thing for llms is now to be
- 01:05:08trained they're trained on content on
- 01:05:09the internet in a big way and they're
- 01:05:12struggling with not training their LMS
- 01:05:15on stuff that AI has written because it
- 01:05:17becomes this uh bad a bad Trend a bad
- 01:05:21direction that LM will go they're
- 01:05:23trained on themselves and anyway
- 01:05:26something I wanted to come back to
- 01:05:27around AI which is AI overviews so I
- 01:05:31imagine many people are like how do I
- 01:05:32get into that answer how do I get my
- 01:05:35product into the answer that Google
- 01:05:37gives at the top is that something you
- 01:05:39recommend people try to do is that
- 01:05:40something you can do so I think of AI as
- 01:05:44or AI overviews as a branding exercise
- 01:05:47so getting into the AI overview and
- 01:05:50Google has links I mentioned this
- 01:05:51earlier that Google has has links within
- 01:05:53the content and I I think a lot of what
- 01:05:55Google does is around potentially
- 01:05:57liability protection so they're having
- 01:05:58links so they're saying well we didn't
- 01:06:00tell you to jump off the Golden Gate
- 01:06:01Bridge the this website which we
- 01:06:03summarized told you to jump off the
- 01:06:05Golden Gate Bridge or we didn't
- 01:06:06plagiarized we just linked to the piece
- 01:06:08of content we may have extracted more
- 01:06:10from the content than we were supposed
- 01:06:11to and the law hasn't decided that yet
- 01:06:14but we link to it so it's fair so I
- 01:06:17right now Google has these links in the
- 01:06:19content and it it sort of links off of
- 01:06:21it I did a survey on LinkedIn and I was
- 01:06:24surprised by the answer I thought most
- 01:06:26people did not click on the links I got
- 01:06:28a couple hundred responses and it's sort
- 01:06:29of 50/50 and based on my survey mik
- 01:06:32experience it's not a statistically
- 01:06:34significant survey in general but it
- 01:06:36will never go to 99% one so like that's
- 01:06:40fairly indicative that people are
- 01:06:41clicking the links which surprises me
- 01:06:44because I don't think that the links are
- 01:06:46necessarily meant by Google to be useful
- 01:06:48which means that AI overviews is
- 01:06:50essentially duplicating search results
- 01:06:52so you have this AI overview which
- 01:06:54summarizes it then you have a link so
- 01:06:55you can link off of it and then beneath
- 01:06:56it you sort of have the exact same thing
- 01:06:58and that that's the challenge that
- 01:07:00Google has to work through so for a
- 01:07:02company show up in AI overview it's a
- 01:07:04brand challenge so if your name if your
- 01:07:06link shows up there then you likely were
- 01:07:08showing up beneath it in the ranking
- 01:07:10results so you've already done the work
- 01:07:11you're supposed to do but if you're
- 01:07:12showing up an AI overview mentioned as a
- 01:07:14brand like these are the top CRM tools
- 01:07:17you're showing up as a brand that means
- 01:07:18you've exercise brand efforts and it's
- 01:07:21working out so I I don't know that
- 01:07:24companies necessarily want their content
- 01:07:26to show up because they're giving away
- 01:07:27their content for free they want their
- 01:07:29they want to be showing up in a way that
- 01:07:31benefits them so if you show up as a
- 01:07:33brand you've done good branding you show
- 01:07:35up as a link it means Google stolen your
- 01:07:36content and people may or may not click
- 01:07:39off of it along this lines of brand and
- 01:07:42SEO do you have any that's always this
- 01:07:45question of like are we investing in
- 01:07:46brand do we just want people to be aware
- 01:07:48we exist or are we trying to actually
- 01:07:49draft conversion any advice on how to
- 01:07:51think about brand building and SEO
- 01:07:54especially with this world of
- 01:07:56I mean this the biggest myth in SEO is
- 01:07:58that you could just build links and Link
- 01:08:00building is is the secret source and the
- 01:08:03secret sauce to like growing your SEO
- 01:08:06footprint and that's totally wrong
- 01:08:09because the way most people build links
- 01:08:10is they buy these guest posts or they
- 01:08:12pay for links on low Authority websites
- 01:08:15it sort of look like they might have
- 01:08:17authority and it it doesn't really
- 01:08:18benefit anyone because no one's reading
- 01:08:20these sites and it's it's funny that
- 01:08:23everyone complain about Google as this
- 01:08:24really really smart all knowing llm and
- 01:08:27at the same time they think they're dumb
- 01:08:28enough to fall for these guest posts
- 01:08:29that are on websites they don't really
- 01:08:31read the right way to build links is to
- 01:08:34build a brand so it comes part and
- 01:08:36parcel of what you're trying to do so if
- 01:08:38you're building links and going back to
- 01:08:40all the SAS examples we talked about so
- 01:08:42if you've created a bunch of content
- 01:08:45that is not relevant for the product
- 01:08:46you're trying to sell building links to
- 01:08:48the content that doesn't really benefit
- 01:08:51the product doesn't really benefit the
- 01:08:53links don't benefit the product but if
- 01:08:55you you can build this product that's
- 01:08:57awesome and everyone loves and wants to
- 01:08:59use and you get not links but mentions
- 01:09:02and links might be mentions now right
- 01:09:05because the way a link before llms and
- 01:09:08the link you know 10 years ago was
- 01:09:10actually an HTML link and now Google can
- 01:09:12read content so they can say well you've
- 01:09:14been mentioned here that's pretty good
- 01:09:17so now we we acknowledge that this might
- 01:09:19be the brand and this might be the match
- 01:09:21for that kind of thing so that's helping
- 01:09:23to build that brand so in general en I
- 01:09:26think of any SEO effort is promoting a
- 01:09:28brand building up a brand rather than
- 01:09:32building a product and then separately
- 01:09:34building out an SEO effort which has
- 01:09:36content that may not be relevant and
- 01:09:38links from websites that are certainly
- 01:09:40not relevant to content that's not
- 01:09:42relevant so it all comes together as
- 01:09:44being one big effort so the same thing
- 01:09:46you'll do on PR you'll do for
- 01:09:49SEO awesome okay I'm glad we touched
- 01:09:51that there's a few other directions I
- 01:09:53want to go so it's kind of I'm going to
- 01:09:54bounce around a little bit and cover
- 01:09:56some of the other stuff I wanted to
- 01:09:57extract from your deep experience in the
- 01:09:59space one is you've mentioned this idea
- 01:10:01of prag pragmatic programmatic SEO a
- 01:10:04couple times and versus
- 01:10:06editorial what's your maybe first just
- 01:10:09clarify what those two directions are
- 01:10:11just for people that don't exactly know
- 01:10:12what you mean and then two what's your
- 01:10:14general advice for which direction to go
- 01:10:15for for grammatic or editorial it might
- 01:10:19be obvious at this point but I'm going
- 01:10:20to say it's dependent on the
- 01:10:22user but essentially what program
- 01:10:25drammatic is is it's taking a bunch of
- 01:10:27data sources and building out a page
- 01:10:31that is a combination of all these data
- 01:10:34sources so in my my book I talk about
- 01:10:37two of my favorite programmatic SEO
- 01:10:40companies one of them was created by a
- 01:10:42past well it's not created the strategy
- 01:10:44was created by a past guest of yours luk
- 01:10:46LEC who introduced us and that was Trip
- 01:10:48Advisor so Trip Advisor took in all
- 01:10:51these data sources of this is the hotel
- 01:10:53these are the cities and then it allowed
- 01:10:56ugc to combine into one comprehensive
- 01:10:59page about each property so Trip Advisor
- 01:11:03did not write a piece of content on
- 01:11:05every single Hotel they didn't write a
- 01:11:07piece of content on here's this long
- 01:11:09form blog post as an influencer on the
- 01:11:12Waldo for story in New York and here's a
- 01:11:13long form blog post about the mar the
- 01:11:15Marriot Marquee in San Francisco they
- 01:11:17built it all from a programmatic
- 01:11:19standpoint they took all these data sets
- 01:11:21they took all the countries in the world
- 01:11:22they took all the properties and they
- 01:11:24merged into one comprehensive page which
- 01:11:26has dominated the top of search results
- 01:11:29since the beginning of the time right
- 01:11:31and they still own it and that team has
- 01:11:33cycled through many many leaders many
- 01:11:36different you know lot of lot of
- 01:11:38different things and they're still
- 01:11:39number ones it's the strategy that has
- 01:11:41allowed them to build that brand and to
- 01:11:42dominate it the second example is Zillow
- 01:11:45so what Zillow did is they they solved
- 01:11:47an early problem many years ago in the
- 01:11:50real estate space which is no one
- 01:11:52understood what the value of a piece of
- 01:11:54property was was so Zillow took in all
- 01:11:57of those data sets so they got some of
- 01:11:58them are government data sets some of
- 01:12:00them are are their own comparison data
- 01:12:03sets based on other home sales so the
- 01:12:05government can say a house is worth one
- 01:12:07price and based on their comparison
- 01:12:09Zillow can completely disagree with it
- 01:12:11so they're building in these data sets
- 01:12:13and they're taking photos from Realtors
- 01:12:15they're taking neighborhood data they're
- 01:12:16taking School data and that's a
- 01:12:18programmatic SEO page and SEO is the
- 01:12:21only channel to bring in traffic to each
- 01:12:23one of these Pages they're not going to
- 01:12:24do page traffic for my house they're not
- 01:12:26going to do pay traffic for your house
- 01:12:28the only way someone would find that
- 01:12:30page on Zillow either they start at
- 01:12:32zillow.com and this navigate through it
- 01:12:34or they Google it so those are
- 01:12:36programmatic SEO efforts on the flip
- 01:12:39side is editorial so editorial would be
- 01:12:42in trip advisor's case writing out that
- 01:12:44long form piece of content around each
- 01:12:47Hotel each City and all the things
- 01:12:49they've done Zillow would be the same
- 01:12:52they would Zillow would take 500 million
- 01:12:53properties and write out an editorial
- 01:12:55piece of content neither of those would
- 01:12:57be a fit for their model and it would be
- 01:12:58extremely expensive so say each piece of
- 01:13:01content would cost $1,000 that would be
- 01:13:03cost prohibitive for anyone to do so
- 01:13:05going back to my distinction based on
- 01:13:08the user what is it that the user is
- 01:13:10looking for so is the user looking for
- 01:13:12the value of a home they don't need a
- 01:13:13long form piece of content they need a
- 01:13:15piece of content or a page that just
- 01:13:17says what the value of that home is trip
- 01:13:19advisor's case they're looking for a
- 01:13:21single thing a rating or maybe they need
- 01:13:23some of that ugc but really they're
- 01:13:24looking for that rating that long form
- 01:13:26piece of content there's a purpose for
- 01:13:28it but not on trip advisor site so
- 01:13:31understanding what is it that the user
- 01:13:33needs will help solve do you approach us
- 01:13:36from an editorial standpoint or do you
- 01:13:38approach us from a programmatic
- 01:13:40standpoint some of the companies I
- 01:13:42mentioned earlier like G2 and capterra
- 01:13:44which are completely being disrupted so
- 01:13:47they're being disrupted by editorial but
- 01:13:49they're also being disrupted by Google
- 01:13:51itself with their AI overviews so if you
- 01:13:53look for the top CRM tools you have G2
- 01:13:56or you have capterra but you also have
- 01:13:58Forbes writing out a long form piece of
- 01:14:00content on what Salesforce is what a
- 01:14:03HubSpot is and that's probably
- 01:14:05unnecessary so I can I think like
- 01:14:07generally you would programmatic is the
- 01:14:10better path and the most common success
- 01:14:12path is what I'm hearing what are things
- 01:14:15you need in place to be successful in
- 01:14:16programmatic SEO like basically you just
- 01:14:18need some sort of data source that you
- 01:14:21own right is that just what's like a
- 01:14:24checklist of like here
- 01:14:25what tells you you have a big
- 01:14:26opportunity here so programmatic is the
- 01:14:30right solution when there's scale and
- 01:14:33when there's a a user use case if there
- 01:14:36is not you create scale for nothing so
- 01:14:39an earlier version of programmatic again
- 01:14:41pre you know a lot of the internet
- 01:14:44companies now is building out a piece of
- 01:14:46content for every single zip code in
- 01:14:48America so say you offer some sort of
- 01:14:51local product you would build out a page
- 01:14:53for every single zip code that is is in
- 01:14:55theory programmatic but users don't look
- 01:14:57for it and Google has completely
- 01:14:59disrupted that with their own local
- 01:15:01products so programmatic can always be
- 01:15:03something I see programmatic mistakes
- 01:15:05all the time where websites look at you
- 01:15:08know they say look we're making reviews
- 01:15:10of software there's 10,000 different
- 01:15:12softwares in the world we're just G to
- 01:15:13make out a page for each one and we're
- 01:15:14going to combine it with I don't know a
- 01:15:16city so there you can make programmatic
- 01:15:18Pages like that but there's no use case
- 01:15:20so really knowing what programmatic
- 01:15:22solution to use comes down to is this
- 01:15:25something that someone would actually be
- 01:15:26looking for does this page itself
- 01:15:28provide a solution so zapier provided a
- 01:15:31solution because someone was looking for
- 01:15:33that
- 01:15:34combination but there are many tools
- 01:15:36like zapier which try to be zapier but
- 01:15:38they're not looking for that solution
- 01:15:40and going back to some of the template
- 01:15:41companies you
- 01:15:43mentioned I don't think a lot of
- 01:15:45companies that make templates they're
- 01:15:47doing they're making programmatic but
- 01:15:49there's not a use case for every single
- 01:15:50one of those templates so they've made
- 01:15:52programmatic for no purpose so again
- 01:15:54Survey Monkey was where we had a fat
- 01:15:57head of templates we could make but it
- 01:15:59wasn't a long tail so we could make you
- 01:16:02know 100 templates but we couldn't make
- 01:16:0410,000 I want to do a rapid fire of SEO
- 01:16:08myths but before I do that uh I know
- 01:16:11that you spent a lot of time actually
- 01:16:12reading this a recent the recent ruling
- 01:16:15against Google and their whole deal with
- 01:16:18Apple and they and you were telling me
- 01:16:20to reveal a lot of interesting stuff
- 01:16:21about their strategy and where SE is
- 01:16:23going so let's find a little time here
- 01:16:25just what what did you learn doing that
- 01:16:27exercise so it's fascinating it's 286
- 01:16:30pages so I basically read a read a book
- 01:16:32it was a verdict Jesus and I would say
- 01:16:34that the judge or the clerk that wrote
- 01:16:36this verdict has a better understanding
- 01:16:38how the SEO works and how digital
- 01:16:40marketing Works than most people I meet
- 01:16:42in digital marketing I did not expect to
- 01:16:43hear that yes so this verdict explains
- 01:16:46how Google decides to rank a page the
- 01:16:48verdict explains how the auction model
- 01:16:50Works in uh in ads in Google ads I think
- 01:16:53that's fascinating talked about the
- 01:16:55comparison between social media like the
- 01:16:58this court really understood a lot of
- 01:17:00the questions that were posting so for
- 01:17:02example Google tried to say that they're
- 01:17:05not a monopoly because there's social
- 01:17:06media and the court analyzed that
- 01:17:08question and said social media is not a
- 01:17:11comparison to Google search Google tried
- 01:17:13to say a lot of the things they did were
- 01:17:15non monopolistic because there's
- 01:17:17Alternatives like bank and the court
- 01:17:19really analyzed a lot of these things so
- 01:17:21where I found it fascinating was again a
- 01:17:23lot of the testimony was public is the
- 01:17:26summary of how the court put it all
- 01:17:28together and a verdict so a few of the
- 01:17:30things I learned is one the market share
- 01:17:33Google's market share so that's been a
- 01:17:36number that no one really liked to talk
- 01:17:38about Google would say oh you know we
- 01:17:40think it's like 80% because they didn't
- 01:17:42want to be viewed as a monopoly and
- 01:17:44Microsoft would say well maybe we have
- 01:17:4620% They al I just found a recent
- 01:17:48document for Microsoft where they claim
- 01:17:50to have like a lot of market share in
- 01:17:52Search and in the in the the verdict it
- 01:17:55says that Google has 98% of mobile
- 01:17:57searches so and I forget whether Google
- 01:18:01it said that the court said it and they
- 01:18:03said Google didn't disagree or that came
- 01:18:04from Google's own documentation but 98%
- 01:18:06of mobile searches the thing that I
- 01:18:09thought was most fascinating from the
- 01:18:10verdict is how much the default
- 01:18:14Partnerships that Google has contributes
- 01:18:16to Google success so the plaintiff in
- 01:18:19the case was the Department of Justice
- 01:18:20suing Google for being a monopoly
- 01:18:23however I don't know what the word is
- 01:18:25but like one of the complainants in this
- 01:18:27is this company Neva which was a search
- 01:18:29engine started by a past Google I think
- 01:18:32is like ahead of research or something a
- 01:18:34senior person at Google created a new
- 01:18:35search engine and a lot of the the the
- 01:18:39ver a lot of the trial was focused on
- 01:18:40how Neva could not be successful despite
- 01:18:43having a better search engine despite
- 01:18:45having a better experience for users
- 01:18:47because they didn't have any of these
- 01:18:49default distribution agreements so
- 01:18:51that's the part that I thought was most
- 01:18:53fascinating Google has these default
- 01:18:55agreements with apple and they also have
- 01:18:58Chrome and they have all these inputs
- 01:19:00into Google searches which means that I
- 01:19:04don't think there's a chance and this is
- 01:19:05the biggest takeaway I don't think
- 01:19:06there's a chance that chat gbt or
- 01:19:09perplexity or Claude or any of these
- 01:19:11other llm startups because there
- 01:19:14startups now uh even even open AI is a
- 01:19:17startup with being with Microsoft's
- 01:19:19investment still a startup I don't think
- 01:19:21they have a chance they're really
- 01:19:23unseating Google pure purely from a
- 01:19:25quality standpoint and that's what a lot
- 01:19:27of the documentation in this verdict was
- 01:19:29about is how much a force of habit how
- 01:19:31much the brand and how much the
- 01:19:33distribution agreements Google has
- 01:19:35drives Searchers to Google and there
- 01:19:38were a couple very interesting insights
- 01:19:40one is that Bing tried to give itself to
- 01:19:42Apple for free and apple said there was
- 01:19:44absolutely no price that they would take
- 01:19:46to use Bing search within Apple another
- 01:19:49one was Mozilla had a partnership with I
- 01:19:52think it was Yahoo and they they did a
- 01:19:54share deal with Yahoo and everyone
- 01:19:56switched back to Google so I when people
- 01:20:00say SEO is dead everyone's going to go
- 01:20:02to open Ai and you just look at the 25
- 01:20:04years of Google's existence and what
- 01:20:06they've built I really don't think so I
- 01:20:09really think distribution and the force
- 01:20:10a brand will keep almost everything
- 01:20:13Google has today now what what I mean
- 01:20:15why is Google fighting back so hard to
- 01:20:17build AI overviews well I think there's
- 01:20:19two answers one is like I said Wall
- 01:20:21Street like they really want Wall Street
- 01:20:22to think that they care and they're
- 01:20:23doing this thing and the other is losing
- 01:20:26small percentage points to Chach BT cost
- 01:20:29Google a lot of money so it's worth it
- 01:20:30for them to invest in it but I don't
- 01:20:32think that they have any fear about not
- 01:20:34being the most dominant search engine in
- 01:20:36the world well isn't the idea with this
- 01:20:38trial that this may change and they may
- 01:20:41lose that default status whether it
- 01:20:44happens or not that's the whole game
- 01:20:46here right it's like maybe they can't be
- 01:20:48that anymore and that maybe opens up so
- 01:20:50I think that's the opportunity
- 01:20:52potentially I don't think so yeah that's
- 01:20:53I mean I know legal expert I don't know
- 01:20:55what the the doj will do but what's
- 01:20:57interesting and if you saw like Google's
- 01:20:59press release when the verdict came out
- 01:21:01so Google tweeted we thank the court for
- 01:21:04recognizing that we're the greatest
- 01:21:05search engine in the world and and more
- 01:21:07to come right like they're going to
- 01:21:08fight back and it's almost like you know
- 01:21:10a bully being declared the world's
- 01:21:11greatest bully and they're like see told
- 01:21:13you you we're strong like but the ver
- 01:21:15when reading the verdict it actually
- 01:21:17said there is no competitor Google is
- 01:21:19the greatest search engine they have 25
- 01:21:20years of great data like they've done a
- 01:21:22fantastic job so I don't see any way
- 01:21:26that those def like if they break the
- 01:21:28default agreements Apple actually loses
- 01:21:30all that money Google's paying and then
- 01:21:33users will still Google so like that's
- 01:21:35not what we'll do it I think the only
- 01:21:36thing they can do is like figure how to
- 01:21:38prop up a competitor yeah so I think
- 01:21:40that's an interesting takeway people
- 01:21:41will go to Google we'll switch to Google
- 01:21:43even if it's not default there's
- 01:21:45actually a really interesting take away
- 01:21:47from Ben Thompson's analysis of the
- 01:21:49stuff and I will point to the podcast
- 01:21:51episode so I thing that shifted my
- 01:21:53perspective on this CU when you hear
- 01:21:54Google is paying Apple to be the default
- 01:21:56search engine it sounds nefarious and
- 01:21:58unfair uh the deal is actually Revenue
- 01:22:01share they give them a percentage of the
- 01:22:04revenue from the ads which ends up
- 01:22:06being2 Billion Dollar something like
- 01:22:09that a lot of money for for apple and so
- 01:22:12anyone else can come to Apple and say we
- 01:22:15will give you a revenue share of our
- 01:22:17searches also it's just nobody is as big
- 01:22:20and can pay as much and if you think
- 01:22:22about it why can't Google come to Apple
- 01:22:26hey we will send you tons of money by
- 01:22:29doing the search for you and giving you
- 01:22:31a large percentage of the ads that we
- 01:22:33are doing for you like it's weird to not
- 01:22:37allow that if you really think about it
- 01:22:39but it's also unfair because there no
- 01:22:40one else will ever be able to compete
- 01:22:42with that yeah and that's what the court
- 01:22:44said is like Neva didn't have a chance
- 01:22:46because of that and and one other point
- 01:22:48is so I did this survey this is years
- 01:22:50ago and I that Survey Monkey I did a a
- 01:22:52search Market penetration survey to
- 01:22:55figure out who used what like B versus
- 01:22:57Google and on my survey I was generous I
- 01:22:59threw Duck Duck Go on there and I came
- 01:23:02back I had thousands of responses and
- 01:23:04came back that 1% of people use duck
- 01:23:06Dogo so but I didn't realize that that
- 01:23:08duck Dogo didn't actually know what
- 01:23:10their Market penetration was so when I
- 01:23:11shared the survey Gabriel Weinberg is
- 01:23:13the CEO of duck. go hit me on Twitter
- 01:23:16and he said can you share the data with
- 01:23:18us because we really would like to see
- 01:23:19it so this was let's say 10 12 years ago
- 01:23:24in the verdict it said that duck duck
- 01:23:26Go's market share is 2% so I came back
- 01:23:28with 1% 12 years ago duck ducko I think
- 01:23:31they raised 100 million dollar they have
- 01:23:33all these brand Partnerships they have
- 01:23:35like you know at baseball games they
- 01:23:37have their logo they they've done
- 01:23:39everything and all they've been able to
- 01:23:40do is get from 1% to 2% so and there's a
- 01:23:44lot there and Google being Google I
- 01:23:46don't see anyone knocking them off
- 01:23:48fascinating well thanks for sharing your
- 01:23:50uh takeaway so that we don't have to
- 01:23:52read this report before I move to
- 01:23:54rapid fire SEO myths is there anything
- 01:23:57else along the lines of AI or SEO that
- 01:23:59you think is really important to
- 01:24:00share that you want to leave listeners
- 01:24:03with I think it the most important thing
- 01:24:06to leave people with is that SEO is not
- 01:24:08dying there will always be a world where
- 01:24:11users are requesting their own
- 01:24:13information so one of the reasons I
- 01:24:16think these home assistants whether it's
- 01:24:18from Google or Apple or Amazon have
- 01:24:20never taken off is because you don't
- 01:24:22have choice you talk to your Google and
- 01:24:25it gives you only one answer you talk to
- 01:24:27Amazon and it gives you only one answer
- 01:24:29like I want to buy toilet paper and
- 01:24:30Amazon just buys you whatever it decides
- 01:24:32to buy you there will always be a world
- 01:24:34where there needs choice and one other
- 01:24:36piece from the verdict is Google
- 01:24:39believes that we're in the very early
- 01:24:40days of llms and even with all the
- 01:24:42machine learning they do on
- 01:24:44understanding users you will always need
- 01:24:46real user data which Google has on past
- 01:24:48searches so I I think users will always
- 01:24:51be requesting their own information and
- 01:24:53there's never going to be an AI that
- 01:24:55understands you so perfectly it's going
- 01:24:57to know that for you personally you
- 01:24:59would like to click result number five
- 01:25:00that's the best fit for what you're
- 01:25:02looking for right now which means that
- 01:25:04there always needs to be multiple
- 01:25:06choices to make so yes most clicks are
- 01:25:08probably going through the first you
- 01:25:10know one two or three results but there
- 01:25:12needs to be seven 10 multiple pages of
- 01:25:16Google because some people do go to
- 01:25:18those other pages so I think that's the
- 01:25:20the most important thing to underscore
- 01:25:22is that all of this means that search
- 01:25:26changes a lot of top aunal search goes
- 01:25:28away but in general there's always going
- 01:25:31to be a world where people are doing
- 01:25:32these searches and then the last piece
- 01:25:34on that really is when you're looking to
- 01:25:36do something with search you're looking
- 01:25:38to take an action and companies benefit
- 01:25:41from those actions so say you're a hotel
- 01:25:44and you want people to sleep in your
- 01:25:45hotel and pay you to sleep in your hotel
- 01:25:48the aggregate number of people needing
- 01:25:49to take that action and pay you for it
- 01:25:52does not change even if search volum
- 01:25:54gets cut if you're selling shoes people
- 01:25:57still need to buy shoes if you're
- 01:25:58selling information though your media if
- 01:26:01you give if your WebMD yes your Revenue
- 01:26:04declines because that information that
- 01:26:06you now aggregated and curated and gave
- 01:26:08away for free in return for people
- 01:26:11clicking on ads Google's now going to
- 01:26:12give away for free in return for No One
- 01:26:14clicking on ads interesting I wonder if
- 01:26:17there's a investment Arbitrage
- 01:26:20opportunity of predicting which
- 01:26:22businesses will decline with this
- 01:26:25and which will Thrive anyway uh I want
- 01:26:29to talk about SEO myths I know that you
- 01:26:31have a few things and we've talked about
- 01:26:32a few of these I think of just things
- 01:26:34that you know people believe about SEO
- 01:26:36but they're actually wrong so let me
- 01:26:39just ask you what are some mths that
- 01:26:40people get wrong about
- 01:26:43SEO probably the the biggest one we said
- 01:26:45over and over is they even need to do
- 01:26:47SEO so there's this always default
- 01:26:49assumption that you've raised money you
- 01:26:51have a marketing team you should do SEO
- 01:26:53and I think that one is really worth
- 01:26:55putting to bed is like think about that
- 01:26:57user Journey should you do SEO and it's
- 01:27:00a question like they ask about other
- 01:27:02channels should you do brand marketing
- 01:27:04should you take out an an ad in Time
- 01:27:06Square and no one will say well I just
- 01:27:08raised a million dollars I should
- 01:27:10totally take out an ADD and Time Square
- 01:27:11and congratulations on being Time Square
- 01:27:13by the way so I thank you no no one will
- 01:27:17just decide oh I've got money to burn
- 01:27:19let me just burn it so somehow SEO
- 01:27:21becomes this thing of like oh I've I've
- 01:27:23raised money now I need an SEO team so
- 01:27:26that's I think the first myth that's
- 01:27:27really important to just put to bed
- 01:27:30awesome what
- 01:27:31else link building so link building is
- 01:27:34is brand building so it's thinking about
- 01:27:37how you're going to build a brand and
- 01:27:39have people mention to you and you're
- 01:27:41when you're doing link building you're
- 01:27:42creating a relationship between the
- 01:27:44piece of content that has linked to you
- 01:27:47and the product or whatever you're
- 01:27:48trying to monetize so that should be
- 01:27:51link building just getting the idea of
- 01:27:53getting links on you know an HTML link
- 01:27:55to will equal SEO success again I I
- 01:27:58think that's completely wrong and then I
- 01:28:02mean probably the the biggest myth in
- 01:28:04general is thinking that Google itself
- 01:28:07is a blackbox so I I think there's
- 01:28:09nuances to how you rank and no one can
- 01:28:12really unearth what is is that will make
- 01:28:14you be number one and what it is that
- 01:28:16will make you be number
- 01:28:18three but the basic idea of how you
- 01:28:21build SEO is very simplistic and Google
- 01:28:23has a best best practices guide on what
- 01:28:25it is that you should be doing which is
- 01:28:27build a website that Google can
- 01:28:29understand link to the pages in that
- 01:28:31write content that is helpful and that
- 01:28:33users want to read and those are the
- 01:28:36basics and starting with that is how
- 01:28:38you're going to build an SEO strategy
- 01:28:39that improves upon it but the idea of if
- 01:28:42I take all three of these steps right
- 01:28:44now I'm guaranteed to be number one I
- 01:28:47think is is something that is completely
- 01:28:49Incorrect and there's an assumption that
- 01:28:51if you do a lot of things around SEO
- 01:28:53you're going to be successful and I I
- 01:28:55think that that's incorrect yes there
- 01:28:58there are nuances but for the most part
- 01:29:01you get from you know most like zero to
- 01:29:0410 you can get to step eight by just
- 01:29:08doing the best practices oh wow sounds
- 01:29:10very empowering I like the sound of that
- 01:29:12maybe just on that new on that thread
- 01:29:13briefly if someone wanted to start down
- 01:29:15the road of SEO I know you're going to
- 01:29:17be a little bit biased because you help
- 01:29:19companies with this but do you recommend
- 01:29:21bringing someone like you in first or
- 01:29:24having someone just give it a shot
- 01:29:25listening this podcast reading some
- 01:29:27books and bogs or or something
- 01:29:31else yes so I I am biased I think they
- 01:29:34they should have the right people give
- 01:29:37them advice on SEO so if someone wants
- 01:29:39to be if they validated that there is an
- 01:29:41SEO effort paying for help on SEO is
- 01:29:45goes back to that resource discussion we
- 01:29:47had before so if you want to hire a
- 01:29:49growth advisor a growth adviser might be
- 01:29:51very expensive but you squash a learning
- 01:29:53curve so you don't make as many mistakes
- 01:29:55as fast if you hire someone in house and
- 01:29:59a lot of times I see this with with with
- 01:30:01roles where I'm helping companies hire
- 01:30:02some for SEO they don't have a lot of
- 01:30:04budget which means they're going to have
- 01:30:05someone that doesn't have a lot of
- 01:30:06experience so is that the right decision
- 01:30:09to make if you're hiring an agency
- 01:30:13agencies are typically expensive and
- 01:30:14agencies a lot of times get paid on
- 01:30:16deliverables so are the deliverables
- 01:30:18they're doing worth paying for so a easy
- 01:30:21deliverable that a lot of agencies
- 01:30:22produce now is content
- 01:30:24but that goes back to our earlier
- 01:30:25discussion do you even need the content
- 01:30:27it's very easy for agencies to sell
- 01:30:30content as deliverable because it's
- 01:30:31something they actually deliver
- 01:30:33delivering strategy the way most of my
- 01:30:35growth advising works is very difficult
- 01:30:37because I don't have a strategy to offer
- 01:30:40in a proposal because I haven't
- 01:30:41developed a strategy and we don't
- 01:30:43actually see the fruits of that till we
- 01:30:45implement the strategy but agencies can
- 01:30:47you know end run that by just saying oh
- 01:30:49you pay us on a month on a monthly basis
- 01:30:51and these are the things we're going to
- 01:30:52Shi to you something that I want I touch
- 01:30:54on which might be a myth and might not
- 01:30:55be a myth I think it you're going to say
- 01:30:57it's a myth uh based on what you said
- 01:30:59about Google being so dominant there's a
- 01:31:01lot of talk about Tik Tok and Instagram
- 01:31:03replacing search for people like I
- 01:31:05actually do search Tik Tok a lot now for
- 01:31:08like how do I how do I solve this
- 01:31:10problem how do I cut a watermelon how do
- 01:31:11I uh I don't know find a cup for my baby
- 01:31:15like it's really good uh what's your
- 01:31:17take on Tik Tok and Instagram videos
- 01:31:20basically replacing a lot of searching
- 01:31:22for for Gen Z especially you know
- 01:31:24younger kids so in the Google verdict I
- 01:31:26think Google said this before 63% of gen
- 01:31:29Z uses Tik Tok to search oh wow I think
- 01:31:32that's yeah I think that's just a
- 01:31:33headline number because it comes down to
- 01:31:36I you said it over and over in the
- 01:31:37podcast user Journeys so there's going
- 01:31:39to be things that are more appropriate
- 01:31:41for Tik Tok or Instagram and they're
- 01:31:44going to be things that are more
- 01:31:45appropriate for search so I think if
- 01:31:46you're doing top aunal Discovery you're
- 01:31:49going to maybe watch Tik Tok videos to
- 01:31:52learn more about the top
- 01:31:54but as you go into the mid funnel so say
- 01:31:56you want to uh you know a popular Tik
- 01:31:59Tok search is around travel so you want
- 01:32:02to go on a TR you want to go on a trip
- 01:32:04you want to go to Southeast Asia you
- 01:32:05don't know where exactly you want to go
- 01:32:07so you might want to watch a bunch of
- 01:32:09videos and see influen see experiences
- 01:32:11but now you're ready to book and you
- 01:32:13want to book a hotel you want to book at
- 01:32:15you know your your flights all of that
- 01:32:18is not going to happen on Tik Tok all of
- 01:32:19that's going to happen on Google search
- 01:32:21so that's the midf funnel again so I a
- 01:32:24lot of search will move different places
- 01:32:26but ultimately Google is still the right
- 01:32:30place to do those searches to do those
- 01:32:32those bid funnel searches so maybe it
- 01:32:35was more inappropriate that Google ever
- 01:32:37that there ever wasn't a Tik Tok for you
- 01:32:39to get those better experiences for
- 01:32:41those top of funnel things you had to
- 01:32:42suffer through Reading awful content
- 01:32:44that was written only for SEO purposes
- 01:32:47and now you get rich Dynamic content
- 01:32:48that comes from Tik Tok and one
- 01:32:50interesting piece on this is if Tik Tok
- 01:32:53does get get banned in the US which
- 01:32:55looks like it's likely and a company
- 01:32:58that will pick up all of that users is
- 01:33:01is YouTube right so YouTube has YouTube
- 01:33:03shorts and again we're looking at a
- 01:33:05potential Monopoly with Google as Google
- 01:33:07tries to put those YouTube shorts to
- 01:33:09solve the problem that Tik Tok was now
- 01:33:12solving so that will be kind of
- 01:33:13interesting oh man Google all the way
- 01:33:16down yes one a thought I had as you were
- 01:33:19talking about this idea of midf funnel
- 01:33:20versus topfunnel is a simple way to
- 01:33:21think about the midf funnel is where
- 01:33:23there's intent like you actually have
- 01:33:25intent to buy now buy a thing specific
- 01:33:27thing yeah cool it I mean that that's
- 01:33:30what it is but it it it's a buyer
- 01:33:32Journey so at the top of the funnel
- 01:33:35you're curious you don't know if you
- 01:33:37have intent and right in the older way
- 01:33:40of doing SEO where you only focused on
- 01:33:42top of funnel you only focused on
- 01:33:44rankings as a kpi which I think is sort
- 01:33:46of the incorrect way of doing things
- 01:33:48there is no intent so you you showed a
- 01:33:51kpi that matched with a non-user which
- 01:33:53match with a non- buyer as you move down
- 01:33:56the funnel there is intent so there is a
- 01:33:59user and there's less traffic there's
- 01:34:01always going to be less traffic at the
- 01:34:02middle of funnel but that doesn't matter
- 01:34:04because your kpi is closer related to
- 01:34:06your business metrics let's do a couple
- 01:34:08more myths if there's anything else that
- 01:34:10we missed and then we'll wrap up and get
- 01:34:11to a very exciting lightning round is
- 01:34:13there anything else that you think is an
- 01:34:14important uh myth that people get wrong
- 01:34:17about SEO I'll touch on one more myth
- 01:34:20which is that technical SEO is an easy
- 01:34:23solv to to any SEO problems so there's
- 01:34:25been a lot of Google updates recently
- 01:34:28again I I think I don't like to defend
- 01:34:30Google because in reading the verdict I
- 01:34:31think that Google did some pretty evil
- 01:34:33things but a lot of what Google has been
- 01:34:36doing is pushing back on the things that
- 01:34:37users hate there's a lot of bad SEO
- 01:34:39content out there so Google's trying to
- 01:34:41get rid of a lot of this bad SEO content
- 01:34:43in their recent updates when sites get
- 01:34:46hit by these updates they try to solve
- 01:34:48the problem that they think happened to
- 01:34:51them by doing technical SEO so the reach
- 01:34:53out to me or to someone like me and say
- 01:34:55can you do an SEO audit and understand
- 01:34:58why our our traffic has suffered the
- 01:35:01reason the traffic is suffer is because
- 01:35:02they've done things that were not really
- 01:35:04useful for users and they sort of
- 01:35:05polluted Google they need to solve that
- 01:35:08problem so technical SEO has a place so
- 01:35:11if you have a a large website with tens
- 01:35:13of millions of pages if you're Zillow
- 01:35:15how you link to each listing if you're
- 01:35:17Airbnb how you link and allow Google to
- 01:35:20crawl a site and understand a site very
- 01:35:22very important if you have a 100 page
- 01:35:24website that sells a a SAS tool
- 01:35:27technical SEO is probably going to be
- 01:35:28less important so spending money and
- 01:35:31time on technical SEO would be a waste
- 01:35:33of time so I think that's another big
- 01:35:34myth is you solve SEO problems with the
- 01:35:37right SEO solution rather than Let's do
- 01:35:41an audit or let's get better links or my
- 01:35:44page page speed is another one that
- 01:35:46agencies like to sell on on if things
- 01:35:48related to PHP Google keeps changing the
- 01:35:50words of what that is but it it doesn't
- 01:35:53matter as much because at the margins
- 01:35:56yes maybe if you're kayak and you're
- 01:35:58competing get Expedia and and kayak is
- 01:36:01maybe slightly faster maybe that matters
- 01:36:04but if you're in a space where you're
- 01:36:06competing against lots of slow terrible
- 01:36:08websites it doesn't matter at all so
- 01:36:10spending a lot of money on making that
- 01:36:13fix is not the right thing to do I like
- 01:36:15how you just make SEO feel much more
- 01:36:17approachable and simple and something
- 01:36:20that you could just do and not have to
- 01:36:23again figure out the dark arts that it
- 01:36:26it it is not a dark art it should be for
- 01:36:28most things it is simple and then there
- 01:36:30are tons of companies out there they get
- 01:36:31in a lot of trouble and there's so
- 01:36:33there's billions of dollars to be made
- 01:36:34on doing the right SEO but a lot of can
- 01:36:36be unlocked by very simplistic XO PMS
- 01:36:40that don't really have an SEO background
- 01:36:43can do enough SEO to make a lot of money
- 01:36:44for the company without needing to be an
- 01:36:46SEO expert I love that that's actually
- 01:36:48how work at our BNB the PMS work at SEO
- 01:36:50or not like historically SEO Legends
- 01:36:54they were just PMS figuring out AO and
- 01:36:55they had a really big impact so that
- 01:36:57really resonates with me Eli is there
- 01:37:00anything else that we haven't touched on
- 01:37:04that you think is important to you or
- 01:37:06something that you think might be useful
- 01:37:07to people to leave them with before we
- 01:37:09get to our very exciting lightning room
- 01:37:11yes so I think we talked about how to
- 01:37:14decide whether to Resource SEO but we
- 01:37:16didn't talk about how to understand what
- 01:37:17the expectations are from SEO so this is
- 01:37:20something I came up with while I was
- 01:37:22working at Fair which which is a very
- 01:37:24interesting company so it's F
- 01:37:26A they are a wholesale Shopify so they
- 01:37:30were launching in a new country and they
- 01:37:33wanted to understand what the upside of
- 01:37:35launching in that country was from an
- 01:37:36SEO standpoint so the way most people do
- 01:37:39SEO forecasting is they do a Bottoms Up
- 01:37:42forecast which is they look at keywords
- 01:37:44so say we want to sell a pair of shoes
- 01:37:48so you do a Bottoms Up forecast you go
- 01:37:50onto a keyword research tool and they're
- 01:37:52all fairly the same look at how many
- 01:37:54people search for shoes every month and
- 01:37:57then you try to estimate what your
- 01:37:59ranking would be on that word shoes and
- 01:38:01then you estimate what you clickthrough
- 01:38:03rate would be and then based on that
- 01:38:04that's your clicks and then you get a
- 01:38:06conversion rate and that's your Bottoms
- 01:38:07Up and you make an assumption that the
- 01:38:09word shoes in that tool didn't capture
- 01:38:13all the people that search like white
- 01:38:15shoes and black shoes and running shoes
- 01:38:17so you you just gross it up you just
- 01:38:19pick a number and you gross it by like
- 01:38:2010 and that's your SEO forecast now now
- 01:38:23the problem with that is that usually
- 01:38:25it's too small so you get this number
- 01:38:27and now you're pitching to like launch
- 01:38:28in a new country I want to launch in
- 01:38:30Japan and sell shoes and you say well I
- 01:38:34think I can get 500 users because based
- 01:38:36on the way I got here this is my
- 01:38:37clickthrough rate and this is my
- 01:38:38rankings and I'm 500 users and no one
- 01:38:41will ever fund that that's too small now
- 01:38:44if you're launching in a new country
- 01:38:46it's actually fairly easy to figure out
- 01:38:47what your SEO upside is because you can
- 01:38:49take the population of the country so
- 01:38:51this is not something Fair sells so I
- 01:38:53don't I don't have to I'm not giving
- 01:38:54that away anything but say you're you're
- 01:38:55launching shoes you're launching a new
- 01:38:56product website that you're selling
- 01:38:58shoes in a country like Japan so I'm
- 01:39:01going to guess I don't know the actual
- 01:39:02numbers for Japan so say Japan has 100
- 01:39:04million people and you're selling shoes
- 01:39:07and you're not going to sell shoes to
- 01:39:08100 million people we only selling shoes
- 01:39:10to men and let's just divide in half so
- 01:39:1350% of Japan is men so we got 50 million
- 01:39:17people that would buy shoes but now
- 01:39:19we're also going to say well there's
- 01:39:21older people and younger people and
- 01:39:22we're not selling shoes to them so now
- 01:39:24we're going to take 25 million and cut
- 01:39:25that in half and then from there we're
- 01:39:28again we're selling shoes on the
- 01:39:29internet not everyone buy shoes on the
- 01:39:31internet some people buy shoes in a
- 01:39:34store some people buy shoes on the
- 01:39:35internet so you take some percentage
- 01:39:37rate of the amount of people that are
- 01:39:38going to buy shoes on the internet and
- 01:39:40say we'll take 10% of our 25 million
- 01:39:43people in our Market two and a half
- 01:39:44million people buy shoes on the internet
- 01:39:47and we want to do SEO for two and a half
- 01:39:48million people and our expectation is we
- 01:39:51want to get this number of Market
- 01:39:54penetration whether it's 10% or 50% or
- 01:39:57100% And there's your number and
- 01:39:59multiply that number by the amount of
- 01:40:01shoes they're going to buy every year
- 01:40:03and your aov and there's your forecast
- 01:40:06and that may be inexact and you can
- 01:40:09tweak those numbers up or down you can
- 01:40:10say well my aov was wrong my market
- 01:40:12penetration was wrong I was wrong on the
- 01:40:14total population I didn't realize that
- 01:40:16in Japan no one bought shoes on the
- 01:40:17internet but at any point in time you
- 01:40:19can go back and adjust your forecast
- 01:40:21whereas if you're doing this Bottoms Up
- 01:40:23forecast it's actually in many cases
- 01:40:25wrong to begin with because the keyword
- 01:40:27research volume is wrong like I worked
- 01:40:29with um some really fascinating
- 01:40:31companies where the largest query in
- 01:40:33their space was the biggest query so I I
- 01:40:36worked with WordPress so WordPress the
- 01:40:38word WordPress is the biggest query in
- 01:40:41the web development space as itself
- 01:40:43right like there's no no other word
- 01:40:45that's as big as WordPress and the
- 01:40:47number that every single keyword
- 01:40:49research tool had was completely wrong
- 01:40:50of what Google search console said for
- 01:40:52the word WordPress
- 01:40:54so when you're building these forecasts
- 01:40:55based on keyword research tools that
- 01:40:57first number that you build the entire
- 01:40:59forecast off of if it's wrong your
- 01:41:01forecast is wrong so when you do this
- 01:41:03top down it's a tam forecast essentially
- 01:41:06when you do a top down you're you're
- 01:41:09closer to the truth now you probably
- 01:41:11aren't going to get to the truth I've
- 01:41:12never seen a product plan get to the
- 01:41:13truth of what it could do but it will
- 01:41:16help you make a better decision than if
- 01:41:17you just guess wow this is a massive
- 01:41:22insight you're sharing so you're saying
- 01:41:23the keyword research tools are not
- 01:41:25actually that accurate in terms of the
- 01:41:27opportunity there and why is that that
- 01:41:29begs the question why are they so off
- 01:41:31what are they doing wrong what are they
- 01:41:32missing they're doing they're they have
- 01:41:34their own secret sauce for estimations
- 01:41:37so even Google for again for past
- 01:41:39monopolistic reasons Google's not
- 01:41:40allowed to give the real number that
- 01:41:42they see on Google ads for how many
- 01:41:44people search it they have to buy it
- 01:41:46from another data source and then give
- 01:41:48that out I forget why so none they're
- 01:41:51all basically guessing so they're using
- 01:41:53using whatever sort of proprietary
- 01:41:55algorithms to guess which is why a lot
- 01:41:56of them are not aligned because they
- 01:41:57have their own algorithms so you're
- 01:41:59using whether it's semrush or HRS one of
- 01:42:02my favorite tools is similar web which
- 01:42:04similar web has a lot of browser plugins
- 01:42:06which Snoop on the way people are
- 01:42:08searching so whatever it is that and
- 01:42:10because similar web has browser plugin
- 01:42:12but they're not seeing every single
- 01:42:13person's search so they have to use
- 01:42:14algorithms to estimate how much the
- 01:42:16entire world would be and again I don't
- 01:42:19know that any of them can get close to
- 01:42:20truth was when I've you worked with big
- 01:42:22companies where there were keywords that
- 01:42:24I could look at Google search console
- 01:42:26some of them the tools were
- 01:42:28overestimating by 10 times sometimes
- 01:42:30they're underestimating by 10 times so
- 01:42:32I'm not saying they didn't get the exact
- 01:42:34monthly number wrong I'm saying they got
- 01:42:35it wrong by many
- 01:42:37factors wow that's crazy so your advice
- 01:42:42is like do you just ignore those numbers
- 01:42:44or is it just like check it out but
- 01:42:46don't roll don't use that number they're
- 01:42:48indicative so I would say if you want to
- 01:42:51know like do most people spell WordPress
- 01:42:54with a space or WordPress without a
- 01:42:56space it's pretty indicative that people
- 01:42:58spell it without a space but if I were
- 01:43:00building a forecast and say oh I
- 01:43:01absolutely choose this based on this
- 01:43:03defined number I don't think so I can
- 01:43:05use it for normalization and I use them
- 01:43:07only for normalization to understand
- 01:43:09like how do people search and I really
- 01:43:11like user Journeys and they're helpful
- 01:43:13for understanding user Journeys but as
- 01:43:15an exact science it's hard to really
- 01:43:17under you know use that that's wild and
- 01:43:19so it's mostly useful for order
- 01:43:21magnitude and and it comparing one
- 01:43:24keyword to another
- 01:43:26relative this bit okay interesting I
- 01:43:29mean I have a great example of how wrong
- 01:43:31they could be in estimating traffic so
- 01:43:33there was a company I was working with
- 01:43:34early in covid their board member the
- 01:43:37public company their board member
- 01:43:38emailed them and said you guys are
- 01:43:39getting crushed by your competitors in
- 01:43:42covid because look at all look at your
- 01:43:44competitors I'm looking at one of these
- 01:43:45tools and you're at the bottom and
- 01:43:48you're doing everything wrong and the
- 01:43:50CMO says what do I what do I tell this
- 01:43:52this board member I said the board
- 01:43:54member is completely wrong this is the
- 01:43:55Google search console and Google search
- 01:43:57console is not perfect but it is again
- 01:44:00it's real data and our Google search
- 01:44:02console shows that our traffic has
- 01:44:04quadrupled in Co so it doesn't really
- 01:44:06matter what this external tool shows so
- 01:44:09they're they're helpful tools are
- 01:44:11helpful but I don't think they are a
- 01:44:13source of actual truth wow that's an
- 01:44:16awesome Point uh in closing uh one thing
- 01:44:19I had noted here that I want to make
- 01:44:20sure you have a chance to talk about is
- 01:44:21just you're really uh really passionate
- 01:44:23about helping people get into SEO and
- 01:44:25also just becoming advisers the way you
- 01:44:28are share what you wanna what you think
- 01:44:30might be useful to people along these
- 01:44:31lines so as my own forecast and
- 01:44:35prediction I think the need for SEO
- 01:44:37expertise is going to explode because a
- 01:44:39lot of what is happening in the search
- 01:44:41layouts is going to mean that companies
- 01:44:43have to Pivot their approaches so a lot
- 01:44:45again companies focus on rankings they
- 01:44:47focus on traffic and a lot of that goes
- 01:44:50away some suddenly the layout changes
- 01:44:53the traffic changes it's not necessarily
- 01:44:55going to impact their bottom lines if
- 01:44:57their SEO wasn't the right fit so this
- 01:44:59is going to create a lot of interest in
- 01:45:00SEO help and I'm seeing this over the
- 01:45:02last year my own inbound has really
- 01:45:05grown because there's a lot of questions
- 01:45:07as as things shake out so there will be
- 01:45:09people that want to go into SEO
- 01:45:11Consulting and I think there's going to
- 01:45:12be a huge need for it in growth advising
- 01:45:14in general what I would say is and I had
- 01:45:17amazing mentors along the way some of
- 01:45:18your past guests like Casey Winters and
- 01:45:21Yuri timman uh even Smith like they're
- 01:45:25all guests with great episodes but like
- 01:45:27they advised me and they they share with
- 01:45:29me not on how to be a better operator
- 01:45:32but on how to be do sales better how to
- 01:45:35propose better if for anyone out there
- 01:45:37that wants to be become a growth advisor
- 01:45:39I'd say that that's the skill you really
- 01:45:40want to perfect communication sales
- 01:45:44proposals and not really worry about
- 01:45:46being the best operator you should be
- 01:45:48the best operator but that's probably
- 01:45:49the skills you already have and don't
- 01:45:51make an assumption that because you're
- 01:45:52good operator today you'll also be a
- 01:45:54great growth adviser build that growth
- 01:45:56advising muscle by staying in your day
- 01:45:59job don't quit your day job and
- 01:46:01Moonlighting and practice selling
- 01:46:03closing working retaining and that's
- 01:46:06where you'll you'll if you're successful
- 01:46:08there you can be successful on your own
- 01:46:11amazing and I know you have some posts
- 01:46:12that get into this stuff that will'll
- 01:46:13link you right y awesome it's kind of
- 01:46:16think of yourself as a product and the
- 01:46:19the Journey of working with with you yes
- 01:46:21you're building a brand you're not
- 01:46:22building a consultancy I love that Eli
- 01:46:26this has been amazing and with that we
- 01:46:27reached our very exciting lightning
- 01:46:29round are you ready absolutely here we
- 01:46:33go first question what are two or three
- 01:46:35books that you recommended most to other
- 01:46:37people I as has been apparent I really
- 01:46:40like user Journeys and understanding
- 01:46:42people so there's a book called small
- 01:46:44data by I think Martin Lindstrom
- 01:46:47pronouncing his name right where he
- 01:46:49talks about understanding people and
- 01:46:51understanding how people buy and digs
- 01:46:53into that entire process he actually
- 01:46:54goes and lives in people's houses and
- 01:46:56watch how they use different tools and
- 01:46:58toys found always find that book to be
- 01:47:00fascinating recommend to people who want
- 01:47:01to understand
- 01:47:02users the uh Simon s next start with why
- 01:47:06again same idea really understand what a
- 01:47:08product a business is supposed to be
- 01:47:10doing to understand users for growth
- 01:47:13this is specifically for growth advisors
- 01:47:15and not necessarily for PMS but million
- 01:47:18dooll consultant it's a a book I read
- 01:47:22recommended actually by Ethan Smith many
- 01:47:23years ago fascinating book on how to
- 01:47:26build a brand and become a growth
- 01:47:27adviser I ended up working with the
- 01:47:29author as a coach for almost a year
- 01:47:32amazing book and then the last book that
- 01:47:35I'd be remiss and not recommending is my
- 01:47:37wife's book which is how to stop caring
- 01:47:40what others think for real so it is a
- 01:47:42book for precisely that understanding
- 01:47:45your own successes not worry about what
- 01:47:46other people about you Beautiful is that
- 01:47:49in the background by the way and if not
- 01:47:50you got to put it in your background
- 01:47:51your wife's book uh my wife made the
- 01:47:53background so yes it is in the
- 01:47:55background which which one is it which
- 01:47:57color am my just so people recognize it
- 01:47:59oh the big one right there I was
- 01:48:00wondering why that one was a little
- 01:48:02taller than the yes this is the but
- 01:48:04there it is wait move it up a little bit
- 01:48:05so we can see the full cover oh
- 01:48:07beautiful stop carrying what other think
- 01:48:09beautiful I need that for real I like
- 01:48:12the ends like but for real for real I
- 01:48:15love it okay it may or may not be a
- 01:48:16Google search
- 01:48:18query oh man I see I see what happened
- 01:48:22there G genus okay next question do you
- 01:48:25have a favorite recent movie or TV show
- 01:48:26you've really enjoyed I was on a plane
- 01:48:28and I saw this movie blackberry and it
- 01:48:31looked like a documentary so I don't
- 01:48:33know if you've seen it but it was
- 01:48:34fascinating because it's one of those
- 01:48:36movies that it has a cliffhanger and you
- 01:48:38know exactly how it ends and it it's
- 01:48:40such a fascinating movie like I I didn't
- 01:48:43know all that history but it was they
- 01:48:44owned the entire smartphone industry and
- 01:48:47they went to zero and it really charted
- 01:48:49that journey and it it makes you think
- 01:48:51like you never really rest on your you
- 01:48:53have to create a product people want and
- 01:48:56understand your users and and keep
- 01:48:57selling that product and not be like
- 01:48:58well we're number one this will never go
- 01:49:00away and great movie so funny it was
- 01:49:03just recommended by another guest very
- 01:49:05recently so there's trending up it's
- 01:49:07been around for maybe a year at this
- 01:49:08point yeah I never would have watched it
- 01:49:10if it wasn't on a plane it was totally
- 01:49:11like seemed like a plane movie but it
- 01:49:13was perfect yeah I watched it at home
- 01:49:15and uh I love just like the technical uh
- 01:49:19like their ability to find clever ways
- 01:49:22to use the cell networks that felt like
- 01:49:24impossible and that what that's what
- 01:49:26allowed him to do all these like the
- 01:49:28messaging and things like that that was
- 01:49:29really fascinating because I didn't
- 01:49:30realize they basically like verse
- 01:49:32engineered the way they sell networks
- 01:49:33work did allot what they allowed yeah
- 01:49:35awesome movie and crazy
- 01:49:37story next question do you have a
- 01:49:39favorite favorite recent product that
- 01:49:41you've recently discovered that you
- 01:49:42really love could be an app could be
- 01:49:44some physical you know said it's not a
- 01:49:46recent product and it's it's like the
- 01:49:48kind of thing I fall in love with over
- 01:49:49and over again and it's might be cliche
- 01:49:51but it's my phone so I recently traveled
- 01:49:54in Southeast Asia I lived there for a
- 01:49:56little bit so I hadn't been back in
- 01:49:57eight years and the things I was able to
- 01:49:59do with my phone like traveling like
- 01:50:01Google Maps and and ways and ordering
- 01:50:04food like I went from multiple countries
- 01:50:06and I was able to use like the same app
- 01:50:08to like book rides and like make
- 01:50:10payments and like it was so useful like
- 01:50:12eight years ago and I was there and I
- 01:50:14had to like buy a SIM card and my phone
- 01:50:16didn't really work and I couldn't make
- 01:50:18payments and it changed my entire
- 01:50:20experience I almost didn't like need a
- 01:50:21computer so like falling in love with my
- 01:50:23phone again and then another one that
- 01:50:26it's not necessarily recent but I
- 01:50:28absolutely love which is grammarly so it
- 01:50:31I like writing I write all my own stuff
- 01:50:33I don't write with AI grammarly helps me
- 01:50:35to be a better writer you know what I
- 01:50:37realized about grammarly recently I just
- 01:50:39upgraded to their Pro Plan they're like
- 01:50:41the best product at upselling you on
- 01:50:43their PID plan because they're just like
- 01:50:45right there in your face all the time
- 01:50:47hey we have stuff we could we have so
- 01:50:49many tips for you just we're we have so
- 01:50:51much we could improve just pay a 100
- 01:50:53whatever bucks and we have so much
- 01:50:55advice to make all your rating so much
- 01:50:56better it's like right there in your
- 01:50:58face all the time so like they're so
- 01:51:01good at it and they got me they got me
- 01:51:02and I'm happy you know it's not like
- 01:51:04that much money in the scheme of things
- 01:51:05if you're doing this full-time I'm I'm
- 01:51:08so embarrassed when I use grammarly on
- 01:51:09my book and like it just like shows up
- 01:51:12all blue and green I'm like oh man if
- 01:51:14only I had known interest so I actually
- 01:51:17have a copywriter on my newsletter who's
- 01:51:18like incredible she finds like a hundred
- 01:51:20things every time to improve that even
- 01:51:22when I think it's perfect and
- 01:51:24interestingly they she doesn't do it
- 01:51:25grammarly suggests in like more cases
- 01:51:28than I would expect so that's kind of
- 01:51:31interesting I'm finding but anyway yeah
- 01:51:33grammar Le great I use it all the time
- 01:51:35two more questions do you have a
- 01:51:37favorite life motto that you often use
- 01:51:40yourself share with friends your family
- 01:51:42find useful in work or in life I don't
- 01:51:44know that it it fits into sentence but
- 01:51:47it's something I always encourage people
- 01:51:49which is to really think big and think
- 01:51:51long so uh I just started working with
- 01:51:54LinkedIn as a Consulting client and I've
- 01:51:57talked to LinkedIn about working with
- 01:51:58them for six years so never give up like
- 01:52:02just when you know meet someone and
- 01:52:04propose something and suggest an idea
- 01:52:06like you never know where to go like I
- 01:52:08had that with with all through my career
- 01:52:11with living in different places like
- 01:52:12really not think about the moment of
- 01:52:14where things will go but you know just
- 01:52:17it's a relationship you're building you
- 01:52:18never know where anything will happen so
- 01:52:20look at the big picture that and kind of
- 01:52:23following along those lines last
- 01:52:24question curious if something comes up
- 01:52:26here what's your most what SEO win are
- 01:52:28you most proud of I don't know if I
- 01:52:30could say most proud of but I I really
- 01:52:33like what I did with Tinder because it
- 01:52:35was understand like it it brought the
- 01:52:38entire journey together there's users
- 01:52:40out there that didn't know that Tinder
- 01:52:42would solve a very specific problem and
- 01:52:45it and it it's just there to solve that
- 01:52:47problem and it's not the way Tinder
- 01:52:49thought of themselves they they thought
- 01:52:50of themselves like as a dating app but
- 01:52:52it's a loneliness solution problem that
- 01:52:54answers a Google search Eli this has
- 01:52:57been awesome I think this is going to
- 01:52:58help a lot of people think through SEO
- 01:53:01and especially as they realize how
- 01:53:03things are changing they're going to
- 01:53:04have this resource now to be like I see
- 01:53:06this is what I should change this is
- 01:53:08what I should be doing and I just love
- 01:53:10especially the the pattern and the
- 01:53:12thread of it's not actually that
- 01:53:14complicated you can do it even if you've
- 01:53:16never really done it before so I really
- 01:53:18appreciate you being here and sharing
- 01:53:19all this wisdom with us two final
- 01:53:20questions where can folks find you if
- 01:53:22they want to reach out to work with you
- 01:53:24also check out your book and finally how
- 01:53:26can listeners be useful to you so you
- 01:53:29can find me on LinkedIn so search Eli
- 01:53:32Schwarz uh and you should definitely
- 01:53:34look for my book so the book is product
- 01:53:36let SEO and and actually one piece on on
- 01:53:39just your own personal brand and your
- 01:53:41own personal rankings it doesn't matter
- 01:53:43where you rank if you search your own
- 01:53:45name so if LinkedIn shows up first for
- 01:53:47your name that's great because they're
- 01:53:50finding you and a lot of times brands
- 01:53:52and people will be very focused on where
- 01:53:54they're positioned but it's about the
- 01:53:55journey like if they find you they find
- 01:53:57you it doesn't matter what number one
- 01:53:59and that also under scores that it's
- 01:54:01it's not all about links I believe for
- 01:54:02my own name and probably for you too I
- 01:54:05outrank LinkedIn and my book so if you
- 01:54:08search product Le SEO my my own personal
- 01:54:11website which does not have the best
- 01:54:12domain Authority it outranks Amazon so
- 01:54:15that should right away disprove that
- 01:54:17it's all about links and it's all about
- 01:54:20you know SEO metrics it's really all
- 01:54:21about the right fit so be the right fit
- 01:54:23and you'll show up where you're supposed
- 01:54:24to and then users can be most helpful
- 01:54:27for me by subscribing to my newsletter
- 01:54:29and giving me ideas and feedback I want
- 01:54:30to write really enjoy writing and I
- 01:54:32really enjoy hearing from people so my
- 01:54:34newsletter is product let seo.com it's
- 01:54:36so consistent across all your things I
- 01:54:38love it product Leto Eli thank you so
- 01:54:41much for being here thanks for having me
- 01:54:43bye
- 01:54:45everyone thank you so much for listening
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