Vine Deloria on Native Americans (1972)

00:51:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmFW0aXwSoM

Summary

TLDRLe discours met en lumière la lutte des Amérindiens pour revendiquer et protéger leurs droits culturels et fonciers face à des institutions comme le Bureau des affaires indiennes et d'autres entités gouvernementales. Il dépeint un conflit persistant entre les perspectives occidentales et les vues indigènes sur la terre, la culture et la spiritualité. Le conférencier critique particulièrement la façon dont les anthropologues représentent les cultures indigènes, insistant sur l'idée que les cultures amérindiennes modernes ne sont pas statiques mais évoluent avec le temps. Le discours plaide pour une nouvelle reconnaissance du savoir et des traditions autochtones dans la redéfinition de l'identité et des valeurs américaines.

Takeaways

  • 🤔 Les Amérindiens ressentent une tension persistante avec les anthropologues qui ne reconnaissent pas la validité des Indiens contemporains.
  • 🐻 La restitution des terres sacrées, comme le lac Blue, est un accomplissement majeur pour certains peuples indigènes.
  • ⚖️ Le discours critique les approches bureaucratiques du Bureau des affaires indiennes.
  • 🗞️ L'intérêt médiatique pour les Amérindiens a diminué au fil des ans, sauf en périodes d'activisme.
  • 🌊 Les manifestations indiennes, comme celle d'Alcatraz, initient des changements significatifs en matière de droits.
  • 🌱 Les traditions et religions indigènes connaissent un renouveau parmi de nombreux jeunes militants.
  • 🦅 La vision du monde occidental est opposée à la perspective indigène qui considère la nature comme vivante et sacrée.
  • 📚 L'incapacité de nombreuses sociétés à intégrer les valeurs amérindiennes dans leur structure est critiquée.
  • 🌍 La réévaluation des valeurs occidentales est essentielle pour éviter une stagnation intellectuelle.
  • 💭 La nécessité d'un examen fondamental des valeurs civilisationnelles contemporaines est soulignée.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    L'orateur commence par une anecdote humoristique liée à l'histoire des autochtones en Amérique, critiquant les anthropologues pour leur vision rigide des "vrais" Indiens. Il mentionne les conflits récents avec les musées qui retiennent les objets sacrés indigènes et suggère que certains anthropologues pourraient résoudre le problème de la surpopulation en enseignant l'éducation sexuelle avec aussi peu de succès qu'ils enseignent l'anthropologie.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    L'orateur raconte des anecdotes sur le Bureau des affaires indiennes, le décrivant comme une entité bureaucratique immuable. Il évoque une fois où il a plaisanté en disant que la seule place sûre pour faire exploser une bombe atomique serait ce Bureau, en raison de son inertie institutionnelle. De plus, il raconte la blague d'un conservateur républicain menaçant de mettre en prison les militants indiens pour avoir occupé Alcatraz.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Les médias ont perdu de l'intérêt pour les Indiens après les années 70, car ceux-ci ont commencé à obtenir ce qu'ils voulaient, y compris la reconnaissance des terres sacrées. Les luttes des Indiens contre des politiciens hostiles ont mené à des victoires, la plus notable étant le retour de terres sacrées comme le Blue Lake aux Taos Pueblo, grâce à une législation soutenue par l'administration Nixon.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    L'activisme indien s'est tourné vers des manifestations symboliques pour récupérer des terres afin de construire des centres culturels, réussissant à communiquer avec l'administration Nixon. Cela a permis le retour de plusieurs terres sacrées aux tribus. L'orateur mentionne l'importance de faire reconnaître la conception indienne du territoire, qui diverge radicalement des vues occidentales cristallisées autour de l'appropriation et du développement économique.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    L'orateur discute du renouveau religieux chez les Indiens, qui se recentrent sur leurs cérémonies traditionnelles. Il prédit une émergence forte de ces mouvements dans quelques années, annonçant un débat social et philosophique sur la valeur spirituelle et religieuse de la terre, par rapport aux idées occidentales traditionnellement chrétiennes.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Il rattache l'aliénation des Blancs par rapport à la terre à des siècles de dogmes religieux chrétiens prêchant la séparation du monde naturel. En opposition, il souligne la connexion spirituelle des Indiens à la terre, expliquant que la lutte pour la restitution des terres sacrées est une réaffirmation de cette philosophie existant intégralement en dehors du cadre occidental.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Le récit continue avec une critique acerbe des programmes gouvernementaux qui ont échoué à aider les réserves, en prenant l'exemple de la tribu Lummi qui a réussi à prospérer en aquaculture une fois laissée sans ingérence extérieure. L'orateur utilise cet exemple pour souligner que le véritable progrès a été freiné par des conseils inadaptés et impose une réflexion autonome.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Il exprime sa frustration face à l'apathie des sociétés occidentales qui ne remettent pas en question les paradigmes fondamentaux sur lesquels leurs cultures sont construites. Il insiste sur la nécessité d'une auto-évaluation pour échapper à une mort spirituelle et intellectuelle lente, illustrée par les réponses symboliques et non-raisonnées des masses.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    L'orateur critique l'arrogance des institutions éducatives et religieuses qui refusent d'examiner des théories alternatives qui pourraient défier le paradigme établi, telles que celles proposées par Velikovsky. Il plaide pour une révision des croyances chrétiennes traditionnelles, les considérant obsolètes pour résoudre les crises contemporaines.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:51:37

    Pour conclure, il invite à examiner les choix de société à travers les valeurs amérindiennes en opposition aux valeurs occidentales. Il pense que ces choix détermineront le succès futur de l'Amérique, exprimant une conviction que les idéaux amérindiens triompheront, tout en appelant à une responsabilisation envers la terre et la communauté.

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Mind Map

Mind Map

Frequently Asked Question

  • Qui est Jeffrey Amherst mentionné dans le discours ?

    Jeffrey Amherst était un officier britannique connu pour avoir distribué des couvertures infectées de la variole aux Amérindiens.

  • Quel était le but principal des activistes amérindiens prenant le contrôle d'Alcatraz ?

    Ils voulaient utiliser l'île pour créer un centre culturel pour les Amérindiens.

  • Comment les Amérindiens perçoivent-ils généralement la relation avec la terre ?

    Les Amérindiens voient la terre comme quelque chose de sacré et intrinsèquement lié à leurs ancêtres, et non pas comme une simple propriété économique.

  • Quel était l'objectif de la Commission des Réclamations des Indiens en 1962 ?

    Elle avait statué que le lac Blue appartenait au peuple de Taos Pueblo et qu'il devrait leur être rendu.

  • Quels sont certains des défis auxquels les Amérindiens font face avec le Bureau des affaires indiennes ?

    Le bureau est perçu comme un obstacle bureaucratique lente et inefficace au progrès et à la restitution des terres.

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  • 00:00:05
    [Applause]
  • 00:00:08
    I don't often get into pilgrim country
  • 00:00:11
    so you'll have to forgive me if I don't
  • 00:00:13
    know some of the local folklore here I
  • 00:00:17
    understand the only successful
  • 00:00:20
    demonstration you people in
  • 00:00:21
    Massachusetts ever held well you dressed
  • 00:00:23
    up as Indians and I understand your town
  • 00:00:30
    is named after one of our favorite
  • 00:00:32
    people huh Jeffrey Amherst - distributed
  • 00:00:36
    smallpox blankets to the Indians in the
  • 00:00:39
    Ohio Valley
  • 00:00:48
    of late I've picked up theological in
  • 00:00:54
    anthropological critics because of my
  • 00:00:58
    attacks on them so to shorten the
  • 00:01:02
    questioning period considerably I'll
  • 00:01:06
    make some preliminary remarks on those
  • 00:01:08
    two brands of humanity and then they
  • 00:01:10
    won't have to ask me questions
  • 00:01:11
    afterwards we've had a ongoing battle
  • 00:01:17
    with anthropologists for a number of
  • 00:01:20
    years revolving around two basic
  • 00:01:25
    concepts one of which is that they
  • 00:01:28
    continue to act as if the only valid
  • 00:01:32
    Indians were the first Indians that one
  • 00:01:35
    of the anthropologists ran across and
  • 00:01:38
    every one born since is somehow not
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    quite an Indian because he doesn't
  • 00:01:43
    conform to their scholarly opinions and
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    so we've had a running battle with them
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    on that account at the present time
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    there are very strange relationships
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    between the number of tribes in museums
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    where various anthropologists have
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    gathered the sacred objects medicine
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    bags things pertaining to Indian
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    religions and they've kept them in these
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    museums in an effort to educate the
  • 00:02:15
    schoolchildren of this country as to the
  • 00:02:16
    great American heritage and we've had
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    battles in the state of New York over
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    the Iroquois wampum belt the Smithsonian
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    changes their exhibits every time a
  • 00:02:28
    tribe starts into the museum because
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    they have some sacred masks of the
  • 00:02:32
    zuni's that they want to display but
  • 00:02:34
    they don't want the zuni's to know they
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    have them and so you get some very
  • 00:02:38
    frantic anthropologists running around
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    there now I don't say if these people
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    are all bad I wouldn't want my sister or
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    daughter to marry one
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    but we found a place for them now in
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    modern society and that is working on
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    the population explosion because if they
  • 00:03:02
    teach sex education the way they teach
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    anthropology everybody's gonna lose
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    interest and that problem will be
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    shortly solved
  • 00:03:16
    speaking in the east you don't run into
  • 00:03:18
    people the Bureau of Indian Affairs you
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    speak out west half your audience is
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    generally people from the Bureau of
  • 00:03:25
    Indian Affairs coming to see if you're
  • 00:03:27
    telling the truth about them so they can
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    report back to the area office what you
  • 00:03:32
    said in try and get you in trouble with
  • 00:03:35
    your tribe for most of you probably the
  • 00:03:38
    Bureau of Indian Affairs is a very
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    obscure esoteric
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    government agency I taught at Western
  • 00:03:45
    Washington State last fall and the
  • 00:03:49
    students had a big demonstration to
  • 00:03:51
    protest the Amchitka atomic explosion I
  • 00:03:55
    went out in the square where we had the
  • 00:03:58
    rally and the students were telling me
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    that shooting off this bomb would cause
  • 00:04:05
    tidal waves and earthquakes they said
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    there's no place on earth that's safe to
  • 00:04:10
    set that bomb off and I said yeah
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    there's one place that's the Bureau of
  • 00:04:15
    Indian Affairs be and nothing is going
  • 00:04:17
    to shake that institution but I've done
  • 00:04:22
    some research on the Bureau of Indian
  • 00:04:23
    Affairs lately and I come up with the
  • 00:04:25
    answer and that is that before General
  • 00:04:29
    Custer went to the Little Bighorn he
  • 00:04:31
    stopped by the Bureau and said don't do
  • 00:04:32
    anything till I get back
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    lately we like to refer to it as a
  • 00:04:46
    hotbed of inertia now ten years ago
  • 00:04:53
    these were our chief enemies and over
  • 00:04:58
    the last ten years I think we made
  • 00:05:01
    considerable progress against the bureau
  • 00:05:07
    about three years ago I think most of
  • 00:05:09
    you finally became aware of Indians when
  • 00:05:12
    Indian activists took over Alcatraz and
  • 00:05:15
    then we had a series of activist groups
  • 00:05:17
    out west landing on Islands I went out
  • 00:05:22
    about two weeks after we took Alcatraz
  • 00:05:25
    and talked to some of the people out
  • 00:05:28
    there we tried to set up some lobbyists
  • 00:05:31
    in Washington so we could get control
  • 00:05:33
    the island and I went back to Washington
  • 00:05:35
    DC in January tried to talk to people in
  • 00:05:38
    the Nixon administration about getting
  • 00:05:41
    the island for an Indian Cultural Center
  • 00:05:43
    and I ran into one very conservative
  • 00:05:47
    Republican shook his finger at me and he
  • 00:05:49
    said you get those Indians out of that
  • 00:05:51
    prisoner we're gonna put him in jail and
  • 00:05:55
    I never could get the logic to that but
  • 00:05:59
    any group that put Rehnquist on the
  • 00:06:01
    Supreme Court is not terribly logical to
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    begin with in recent years I'd say the
  • 00:06:11
    end of 71 and 72 Indians appear to have
  • 00:06:17
    gone out of the fad stage as far as the
  • 00:06:21
    media goes I know New York Times and
  • 00:06:25
    some others still think chief red fox is
  • 00:06:27
    101 year old Sioux Indian none of us
  • 00:06:30
    ever did but the New York Times and
  • 00:06:36
    several others who really could not face
  • 00:06:39
    the problems of modern Indians in effect
  • 00:06:43
    went out and created one that was a
  • 00:06:44
    hundred years old that they could
  • 00:06:46
    reminisce with
  • 00:06:47
    I talked to one anthropologist who had
  • 00:06:51
    entered anthropology because when he was
  • 00:06:54
    8 years old he went to Cleveland Ohio
  • 00:06:57
    and chief red fox was advertising
  • 00:06:58
    sausages and he was so impressed with
  • 00:07:01
    chief red fox he decided to devote his
  • 00:07:03
    life to preservation of SU culture and I
  • 00:07:11
    think that's the starting position of
  • 00:07:14
    most people entering anthropologists and
  • 00:07:16
    one traumatic charismatic moment where
  • 00:07:20
    they spy another culture now I think the
  • 00:07:24
    reason that Indians appear to have lost
  • 00:07:30
    the attention of the media and are not
  • 00:07:35
    the favourites of Time and Newsweek
  • 00:07:38
    anymore
  • 00:07:39
    is that in large measure we've
  • 00:07:41
    accomplished a great many things that we
  • 00:07:43
    wanted to accomplish in the last 10
  • 00:07:45
    years at the beginning of the Kennedy
  • 00:07:49
    administration we had a great many very
  • 00:07:53
    powerful political enemies in Washington
  • 00:07:55
    DC these people were for the most part
  • 00:07:59
    determined to stamp out all Indian
  • 00:08:01
    culture all Indian treaty rights they
  • 00:08:06
    would always come to the reservation to
  • 00:08:09
    have a war bonnet put on them at
  • 00:08:11
    election time the minute the election
  • 00:08:14
    was over and you went in tried to talk
  • 00:08:15
    with him y-you were immediately faced
  • 00:08:18
    with another General Custer or Jeffrey
  • 00:08:21
    Amherst over the last 10 years a number
  • 00:08:26
    of Indian tribes become very active in
  • 00:08:28
    political events in the West I'm happy
  • 00:08:33
    to tell you that two weeks ago we
  • 00:08:34
    retired Wayne Aspen all of Colorado
  • 00:08:37
    Clinton Anderson of New Mexico got too
  • 00:08:40
    old to daughter around interior we've
  • 00:08:44
    gotten rid of a lot of staff men who
  • 00:08:46
    used to be very anti Indian we
  • 00:08:54
    are not going to apparently play a very
  • 00:08:56
    big role in the 1972 presidential
  • 00:08:59
    election if you read the latest poll
  • 00:09:01
    Richard Nixon's now head by 39 points
  • 00:09:06
    one old Indian told me a society always
  • 00:09:09
    gets what it deserves and that's why
  • 00:09:11
    Nixon is that far hidden I don't want to
  • 00:09:15
    explain that remark the emphasis has
  • 00:09:20
    shifted rather dramatically from
  • 00:09:22
    activist events following Alcatraz we
  • 00:09:28
    had a group planned on fort lon
  • 00:09:30
    which is a fort in Seattle that was
  • 00:09:33
    about to be declared surplus we had a
  • 00:09:37
    group blend at the light house in
  • 00:09:40
    Milwaukee they were thinking of taking
  • 00:09:44
    over the Milwaukee Yacht Club but they
  • 00:09:46
    didn't have enough men to occupy both
  • 00:09:48
    places I asked them why they wanted to
  • 00:09:51
    take over the Milwaukee Yacht Club they
  • 00:09:54
    said they wanted to have red Suns in the
  • 00:09:56
    sail set but they we now have a Indian
  • 00:10:03
    culture school at the old lighthouse
  • 00:10:05
    site in Milwaukee it's funded through
  • 00:10:07
    health education welfare funds and it's
  • 00:10:12
    one of about five or six Indian cultural
  • 00:10:16
    schools in urban areas that came about
  • 00:10:18
    as a direct result of the activism now
  • 00:10:23
    if you look at the events of those three
  • 00:10:28
    activist years almost everything that
  • 00:10:32
    happened revolved around the concept of
  • 00:10:34
    land and it was not simply clarifying
  • 00:10:40
    titles to land but it was Indian people
  • 00:10:42
    trying to get specific pieces of land in
  • 00:10:44
    order to set up cultural centers Indian
  • 00:10:47
    study centers spiritual centers and even
  • 00:10:53
    though these protests were somewhat
  • 00:10:55
    symbolic they were able to communicate
  • 00:10:58
    with Richard Nixon and other people in
  • 00:11:01
    the current administration so that
  • 00:11:05
    we were able to break through in the
  • 00:11:08
    last two years and get a great many
  • 00:11:14
    things that we'd been trying to get for
  • 00:11:15
    over a period of 50 years since 1962 the
  • 00:11:23
    Indian Claims Commission had ruled that
  • 00:11:24
    the Blue Lake belonged to Taos Pueblo
  • 00:11:26
    and the United States should return the
  • 00:11:28
    lake the senior Democrats in Congress
  • 00:11:32
    refused to pass legislation that would
  • 00:11:36
    return that lake to us finally the White
  • 00:11:39
    House entered I hate to be given Nixon
  • 00:11:43
    credit for this but he did put a lot of
  • 00:11:46
    muscle on the Republican Party the son
  • 00:11:49
    of the bill went to the floor of the
  • 00:11:51
    Senate where they had a very vicious
  • 00:11:53
    fight over the concept of restoring
  • 00:11:55
    sacred lands to Indians the
  • 00:11:57
    administration bill carried by a wide
  • 00:12:01
    majority in approximately 48,000 acres
  • 00:12:05
    of sacred land that was sacred to Taos
  • 00:12:07
    Pueblo was transferred to them since
  • 00:12:12
    then we've gotten 12 12,000 acres that
  • 00:12:16
    included Mount Adams in the state of
  • 00:12:17
    Washington which was a shrine of the
  • 00:12:20
    Yakima Indians of that state last
  • 00:12:23
    Thursday and the Nixon administration
  • 00:12:26
    returned 61 thousand acres to the Warm
  • 00:12:30
    Springs tribe of Oregon and they're
  • 00:12:34
    presently writing up a bill to give the
  • 00:12:36
    Tonto Apaches 85-acre reservation in
  • 00:12:39
    Arizona recognize them as a federal
  • 00:12:41
    tribe and these were major items on the
  • 00:12:47
    Indian agenda at the beginning of the
  • 00:12:49
    1960's almost everything that you would
  • 00:12:55
    read or hear about your relationship the
  • 00:12:59
    contemporary Indian problem revolved
  • 00:13:01
    around the concept of land restoration
  • 00:13:05
    now through the 50s and up to 1966 it
  • 00:13:09
    was extremely difficult for us to
  • 00:13:11
    advocate and communicate the desire to
  • 00:13:15
    restore tribal lands particularly tribal
  • 00:13:18
    lands that had sacred shrines on them
  • 00:13:22
    and I believe the reason that it was
  • 00:13:27
    difficult is that when you come into the
  • 00:13:30
    value structure of American Indian
  • 00:13:32
    people you're talking about religious
  • 00:13:37
    and philosophical ideas that are
  • 00:13:38
    directly opposed to Western culture to
  • 00:13:42
    Christianity in the whole tradition of
  • 00:13:45
    the West and consequently raising the
  • 00:13:50
    issue of Sacred Lands appears in one
  • 00:13:53
    context politically when you transfer
  • 00:13:57
    the ideas behind that over into another
  • 00:13:59
    context I think you find the American
  • 00:14:02
    Indian stand directly opposed to the
  • 00:14:05
    interpretations of what this world is
  • 00:14:08
    that have been shared by non-indian
  • 00:14:13
    people of the United States and this
  • 00:14:18
    involves the concept of death the
  • 00:14:20
    concept of creation concept of animal
  • 00:14:23
    and plant life the concept of what the
  • 00:14:25
    universe consists of I think what you're
  • 00:14:32
    seeing at the present time in in the
  • 00:14:34
    virtual disappearance of Indian activism
  • 00:14:38
    is the beginning of a struggle in a very
  • 00:14:40
    new level that is a lot of activists who
  • 00:14:44
    had up to this time can been rather
  • 00:14:47
    content to land on Islands address
  • 00:14:50
    audiences on the subject of racism and
  • 00:14:53
    the third world revolution a lot of
  • 00:14:55
    these people have dropped out of the
  • 00:14:56
    activist movement and they're back on
  • 00:14:58
    the reservations and they're studying
  • 00:14:59
    under the religious and holy men of the
  • 00:15:02
    tribe a lot of the ceremonies are being
  • 00:15:06
    renewed there's a tremendous sweeping
  • 00:15:10
    under current going through Indian
  • 00:15:12
    country that involves traditional
  • 00:15:14
    religion
  • 00:15:16
    I think this will surface in four or
  • 00:15:18
    five years and I think this time instead
  • 00:15:22
    of a civil rights movement starting on
  • 00:15:25
    the basis of equality with the dual
  • 00:15:30
    problems of segregation integration
  • 00:15:33
    community power all of the things that
  • 00:15:35
    we've experienced in the last 20 years
  • 00:15:36
    that you're going to see a whole new
  • 00:15:40
    phenomenon of social questions raised
  • 00:15:43
    and as I say I don't think it'll be for
  • 00:15:46
    another five years I think what we're
  • 00:15:49
    seeing now in this law is people storing
  • 00:15:54
    psychic energy and their emotional
  • 00:15:56
    batteries getting ready for another run
  • 00:15:59
    at an attempt to define what America is
  • 00:16:04
    now if you look into religious and
  • 00:16:08
    political traditions of the European
  • 00:16:11
    white men as he's coming over here you
  • 00:16:16
    find that this man for 1,500 years has
  • 00:16:19
    been in a religion that taught him that
  • 00:16:22
    the original man on earth bit into an
  • 00:16:25
    apple and thereby damned creation all of
  • 00:16:29
    the life species of creation all of the
  • 00:16:32
    men who could ever live in that creation
  • 00:16:36
    the religion taught him that the
  • 00:16:38
    universe was completely alien to him he
  • 00:16:42
    had no relationship with it whatsoever
  • 00:16:45
    for 1,500 years Christians proclaim they
  • 00:16:49
    were in the world but not of it
  • 00:16:52
    consequently no responsibility was ever
  • 00:16:55
    felt to the world since the interest in
  • 00:17:00
    Indians has come along you can go into
  • 00:17:01
    any bookstore and get thousands of
  • 00:17:03
    anthologies and they usually put Chief
  • 00:17:06
    Joseph surrender speech right in the
  • 00:17:08
    middle of the book because that's always
  • 00:17:09
    the high point of the anthology the
  • 00:17:13
    early selections continually speak of
  • 00:17:17
    the paradise that existed on this
  • 00:17:19
    continent and how stunned the early
  • 00:17:23
    explorers were
  • 00:17:24
    that Indian tribes kept treaties without
  • 00:17:27
    demanding a piece of paper to take into
  • 00:17:31
    a law court they had no jails and
  • 00:17:34
    orphanages that in a great many ways
  • 00:17:40
    Indian society was almost the Garden of
  • 00:17:43
    Eden society it is not and of course
  • 00:17:49
    cannot be that today because we are so
  • 00:17:51
    involved with a number of things we've
  • 00:17:54
    had to adapt to so many forces from the
  • 00:17:59
    outside but in the original concept as
  • 00:18:02
    the original explorers found the
  • 00:18:05
    American Indian tribes that religion
  • 00:18:08
    emphasized the unity of life the kinship
  • 00:18:12
    of all living species to one another
  • 00:18:17
    over a period of three hundred years the
  • 00:18:24
    continent was systematically settled in
  • 00:18:27
    many instances almost totally destroyed
  • 00:18:35
    in many ways irredeemably destroyed if
  • 00:18:39
    you go to the Appalachian Mountains
  • 00:18:41
    today you realize no matter how many ads
  • 00:18:44
    Peabody Coal and Kennecott Copper runnin
  • 00:18:47
    Time magazine that land will never be
  • 00:18:48
    the same as you look through the various
  • 00:18:52
    anthologies you find over and over again
  • 00:18:56
    the various Indian tribes say we cannot
  • 00:18:58
    sell this land because this land
  • 00:19:00
    contains the bones of our fathers and
  • 00:19:02
    grandfathers this is where our spirits
  • 00:19:05
    are this is where people have always
  • 00:19:06
    been you find throughout these
  • 00:19:11
    anthologies
  • 00:19:13
    various Indian chiefs saying that we
  • 00:19:16
    cannot sell this land because you have
  • 00:19:18
    to dig down three feet before you reach
  • 00:19:21
    the earth because the rest of this is
  • 00:19:23
    the dust of our ancestors in 1926 Luther
  • 00:19:32
    Standing Bear of the Sioux tribe
  • 00:19:36
    predicted there would be continual
  • 00:19:38
    psychic disruptions continual conflict
  • 00:19:42
    and continual confusion because he said
  • 00:19:46
    the white man can never dig his roots
  • 00:19:49
    into the soil of this land and take root
  • 00:19:52
    in the Christian religion your top that
  • 00:19:58
    there is physical resurrection of the
  • 00:20:01
    body consequently when you die as a
  • 00:20:05
    Christian your body is put in a
  • 00:20:07
    waterproof air proof rust proof casket
  • 00:20:12
    stuck into a ground and the stone is put
  • 00:20:15
    there waiting the day of the second
  • 00:20:18
    coming and at no point is there any
  • 00:20:21
    intention that's you or your spirit or
  • 00:20:25
    your body become part of the land your
  • 00:20:29
    segregated in a cemetery very close to
  • 00:20:32
    the church so the devil can't get your
  • 00:20:33
    spirit and in every way possible your
  • 00:20:36
    bodies are preserved so that they'll be
  • 00:20:39
    ready for the resurrection and
  • 00:20:44
    consequently there is no point in the
  • 00:20:48
    Christian religion in which the people
  • 00:20:50
    can relate to the land at all that they
  • 00:20:54
    are continually alienated from the land
  • 00:21:01
    and what we have fought for the last 10
  • 00:21:04
    or 15 years is to bring this Indian
  • 00:21:07
    concept of religion into the courts into
  • 00:21:10
    public consciousness into the
  • 00:21:15
    intellectual struggle to define modern
  • 00:21:17
    America because there's substantial
  • 00:21:20
    number of Indian people that think this
  • 00:21:22
    is not only a vital concept it's a
  • 00:21:25
    crucial concept for contemporary America
  • 00:21:30
    because what we have going on at the
  • 00:21:32
    present time and you can go into almost
  • 00:21:34
    any state and see this the Christian
  • 00:21:38
    concept of man alienated from nature has
  • 00:21:42
    been given a beneficial veneer and that
  • 00:21:45
    is called tax exemption or tax
  • 00:21:47
    deductable items so the land in this
  • 00:21:52
    society in the animals in plants living
  • 00:21:55
    on it have value for this society
  • 00:21:58
    insofar as you can put them on your
  • 00:22:02
    income tax form every year depreciation
  • 00:22:07
    of land lends a good investment if you
  • 00:22:12
    capitalize amortize and go through all
  • 00:22:15
    of these other things that you go
  • 00:22:16
    through and a great many people own land
  • 00:22:20
    and never see it because what they see
  • 00:22:24
    is a piece of paper that describes the
  • 00:22:26
    location of this thing consequently
  • 00:22:31
    there is no way in present-day America
  • 00:22:33
    for a community or even a very small
  • 00:22:37
    group of individuals to relate to any
  • 00:22:39
    particular piece of land and where no
  • 00:22:45
    one can relate to it what has been a
  • 00:22:49
    very beneficial concept of individual
  • 00:22:51
    ownership becomes a very demonic thing
  • 00:22:55
    because what law then does is protect
  • 00:22:58
    one man's right to use his land to the
  • 00:23:01
    detriment of everybody else in that
  • 00:23:03
    society
  • 00:23:06
    I didn't realize how drastic the
  • 00:23:09
    situation was till I went down in
  • 00:23:10
    Appalachia this last spring when the
  • 00:23:15
    coal companies get through with Kentucky
  • 00:23:17
    all you're going to have is the Kentucky
  • 00:23:19
    Derby ground and the interstates going
  • 00:23:22
    through the state and everything else
  • 00:23:23
    will have been strip mined Kentucky was
  • 00:23:28
    once one of the most beautiful places on
  • 00:23:30
    earth in the far west we're fighting a
  • 00:23:36
    very drastic fight against the Interior
  • 00:23:38
    Department simply to allow the wild
  • 00:23:41
    animals to live on federal lands some of
  • 00:23:46
    the newspaper items that you frequently
  • 00:23:48
    come across are these battles out there
  • 00:23:51
    to allow the Mustang and maverick horses
  • 00:23:55
    that run through Wyoming in Utah to
  • 00:23:59
    allow them to live one more year as wild
  • 00:24:02
    animals as animals who have a right to
  • 00:24:04
    exist against that are the combined
  • 00:24:08
    forces of the Stockman the Canton dog
  • 00:24:10
    food manufacturers the oil companies who
  • 00:24:14
    want to get into the shale and here
  • 00:24:17
    you're opposing two different ideas an
  • 00:24:21
    Indian concept to creation that a living
  • 00:24:24
    being or living species has the right to
  • 00:24:26
    exist in and of itself and not because
  • 00:24:31
    it is economically feasible for another
  • 00:24:33
    species or because it happens to fit
  • 00:24:36
    into an overall plan of development
  • 00:24:40
    Department of Interior every year puts a
  • 00:24:43
    substantial budget into what they call
  • 00:24:45
    predator control if you walk through the
  • 00:24:50
    Rocky Mountains today you don't hear the
  • 00:24:52
    voice of any living thing the only thing
  • 00:24:54
    that you will occasionally hear is a jet
  • 00:24:56
    plane going overhead or a super highway
  • 00:24:58
    in the distance predator control is
  • 00:25:04
    based on a mythological interpretation
  • 00:25:07
    of what Internal Revenue calls
  • 00:25:09
    depreciation and law allowable losses
  • 00:25:14
    well meaning Colorado parts of Montana
  • 00:25:17
    and Utah
  • 00:25:18
    used to have considerable wildlife on
  • 00:25:20
    them Internal Revenue Code was changed
  • 00:25:24
    to allow sheepmen and cattlemen to
  • 00:25:27
    deduct losses taken by predators every
  • 00:25:30
    year I don't know how far how long ago
  • 00:25:34
    that was but no cow or sheep has died a
  • 00:25:38
    natural death in those four states ever
  • 00:25:40
    since that section went in because if a
  • 00:25:45
    sheep would die a natural death in
  • 00:25:47
    Wyoming it could not be deducted from
  • 00:25:49
    income tax if the Sheep is killed by a
  • 00:25:53
    mythological eagle then it becomes a
  • 00:25:56
    tax-deductible loss and is carried on
  • 00:25:58
    the books to be balanced against income
  • 00:26:02
    over the last 20 years you have the
  • 00:26:05
    number of sheep in Wyoming going down
  • 00:26:08
    the number of lambs killed going up and
  • 00:26:11
    the number of eagles killed going up so
  • 00:26:17
    the story is that there's one eagle out
  • 00:26:19
    there someplace that's averaging
  • 00:26:20
    something like a thousand lambs a day
  • 00:26:29
    the current move toward ecology and
  • 00:26:34
    attempting to build a new type of social
  • 00:26:38
    understanding of what we're talking
  • 00:26:39
    about in social movement in this last
  • 00:26:44
    year I've been in a number of political
  • 00:26:46
    controversies and at almost every point
  • 00:26:48
    we have conservationists pitted against
  • 00:26:51
    minority groups conservationists pitted
  • 00:26:54
    against the rural poor we have the Corps
  • 00:26:58
    of Engineers in the Bureau of
  • 00:26:59
    Reclamation standing back and choosing
  • 00:27:02
    sides between the people involved in the
  • 00:27:05
    controversy and ending up getting their
  • 00:27:07
    programs put through regardless of what
  • 00:27:10
    the ultimate value of the project is and
  • 00:27:16
    consequently it is not going to be easy
  • 00:27:17
    to come out of the post-civil rights
  • 00:27:20
    post-vietnam protest days and talk about
  • 00:27:26
    coalition's for social movement that are
  • 00:27:29
    based on what are really old concepts
  • 00:27:32
    and that is that you stack all of the
  • 00:27:35
    interest groups on one side of the scale
  • 00:27:37
    and hope you get 51% and if you get 51%
  • 00:27:40
    you think you can carry it politically
  • 00:27:43
    but what you're talking about is the
  • 00:27:46
    emergence of fundamentally opposed views
  • 00:27:52
    that is the traditional Western view
  • 00:27:54
    that nature is dead that nature is bad
  • 00:27:57
    the man is an alien in this world in
  • 00:28:03
    what is basically in the American Indian
  • 00:28:04
    view that nature is alive the nature is
  • 00:28:08
    good and we don't care whether there's
  • 00:28:11
    another world or not and we're too busy
  • 00:28:14
    occupy it finding out what this one is
  • 00:28:16
    and I think these are the two points of
  • 00:28:20
    view that inevitably must come out of
  • 00:28:24
    all the social confusion that we see
  • 00:28:25
    today we've had sporadic
  • 00:28:30
    instances of women's liberation
  • 00:28:32
    movements in the Indian country in many
  • 00:28:36
    traditional tribes it's the men who need
  • 00:28:39
    liberation and not the women in Indian
  • 00:28:41
    country many tribes the clan mothers
  • 00:28:45
    choose who will be the leaders they
  • 00:28:48
    choose who will be the religious leaders
  • 00:28:49
    they make almost all of the decisions
  • 00:28:51
    that the tribe makes women's liberation
  • 00:28:57
    is a concept that Indian people can
  • 00:29:00
    relate to but relate to in a far
  • 00:29:03
    different cultural context because in
  • 00:29:08
    our tribal history the various
  • 00:29:11
    distinctions that are made within the
  • 00:29:14
    Indian community are definite
  • 00:29:17
    definitions of roles there is not a
  • 00:29:21
    primary interpretation which is either
  • 00:29:24
    masculine or feminine in there but more
  • 00:29:28
    of a cooperative communal sense category
  • 00:29:36
    it's very difficult to begin to lay the
  • 00:29:40
    guidelines for what a lot of us think
  • 00:29:44
    could be the social movements of the 70s
  • 00:29:48
    in 1954 the Supreme Court came down with
  • 00:29:53
    bound versus Topeka Board of Education
  • 00:29:56
    which was the primary case that laid the
  • 00:30:00
    groundwork at least legally and
  • 00:30:01
    politically for the civil rights
  • 00:30:03
    movement in that same year Congress
  • 00:30:07
    passed something like 14 termination
  • 00:30:10
    acts and began systematically destroying
  • 00:30:12
    the tribes of this country throughout
  • 00:30:17
    the early 60s we were talking about the
  • 00:30:21
    necessity of developing new concepts of
  • 00:30:26
    what capital is and what capital can do
  • 00:30:29
    for communities
  • 00:30:32
    I recently did a study on the Lummi
  • 00:30:35
    tribal Western Washington the Bureau of
  • 00:30:38
    Indian Affairs set up that reservation
  • 00:30:40
    night in 1872 it was twelve thousand
  • 00:30:44
    acres of virgin cedar wood the best
  • 00:30:47
    cedar on the west coast the Bureau of
  • 00:30:51
    Indian Affairs at the direction of the
  • 00:30:53
    President of the United States in 1872
  • 00:30:55
    cut and burned the forest because
  • 00:30:58
    everyone knew that the Indians had to
  • 00:31:01
    become farmers like the rest of America
  • 00:31:04
    once the forest was cut and burned they
  • 00:31:08
    taught the Indians how to plant potatoes
  • 00:31:11
    no one ever told anybody in Washington
  • 00:31:14
    DC the average rainfall is something
  • 00:31:16
    like forty five inches a year in western
  • 00:31:18
    Washington for nine months a year that
  • 00:31:22
    when you the minute you remove that tree
  • 00:31:23
    cover what you're talking about the
  • 00:31:25
    swamp in every ten year period in the
  • 00:31:31
    history of that tribe you can see some
  • 00:31:33
    directive come out of Washington DC if
  • 00:31:36
    you trace the ideology back the ideology
  • 00:31:41
    goes back to the inevitability of
  • 00:31:43
    Western history that certain groups of
  • 00:31:45
    people should do certain things we have
  • 00:31:48
    to prepare these people to live good
  • 00:31:50
    Christian lives so that in the afterlife
  • 00:31:52
    they can have equal civil rights where
  • 00:31:55
    we cannot give it to them now all of the
  • 00:31:58
    other mythologies that have always
  • 00:31:59
    defined America out of that 12,000 acres
  • 00:32:05
    by 1962 the Lummi tribe had as its sole
  • 00:32:10
    asset 500 acres of tidal flats tidal
  • 00:32:16
    flats as some of you know the land
  • 00:32:20
    exposed between high and low tide it's
  • 00:32:24
    hardly a place that you can put a motel
  • 00:32:29
    girl of Indian Affairs came in and took
  • 00:32:32
    a look at the Lummi reservation decided
  • 00:32:35
    in the way of Western cultures but 1600
  • 00:32:42
    Lummi should start arts and crafts
  • 00:32:44
    projects because Indians are good with
  • 00:32:47
    their hands we can create a tremendous
  • 00:32:51
    industry here to help these people
  • 00:32:53
    adjust adjust to modern life so they
  • 00:32:57
    loaned the tribe 30 thousand dollars
  • 00:33:00
    they created the Lummi knitters Lummi
  • 00:33:03
    weavers and the Lummi Carver's build
  • 00:33:09
    Indian Affairs ran the program for six
  • 00:33:11
    years the most successful component was
  • 00:33:14
    the Lummi knitters the women worked all
  • 00:33:18
    year round in the average 272 dollars a
  • 00:33:21
    year income the other programs were much
  • 00:33:27
    worse the Lummi Carver's average $15 a
  • 00:33:31
    year income per person after six years
  • 00:33:36
    the Bureau of Indian Affairs threw up
  • 00:33:39
    their hands issued a paper blasting the
  • 00:33:44
    Lumbees as lazy unmotivated dirty
  • 00:33:47
    ignorant Indians that they would never
  • 00:33:49
    have anything to do with under any
  • 00:33:51
    circumstances the Bureau of Indian
  • 00:33:54
    Affairs people began a boycott of the
  • 00:33:56
    Lummi reservation in a minute they were
  • 00:34:00
    gone the lamas rushed up to Western
  • 00:34:02
    Washington State and they said watch you
  • 00:34:04
    people come down take a look at this
  • 00:34:06
    what we've got left and tell us what to
  • 00:34:08
    do
  • 00:34:10
    marine biologists came down took one
  • 00:34:12
    look at it and they said well ice but I
  • 00:34:14
    suppose you could set up an aquaculture
  • 00:34:16
    if you really would like to do that
  • 00:34:19
    mummys being traditional fishermen
  • 00:34:22
    they're discussing the idea decided to
  • 00:34:25
    attempt to build an aquaculture had only
  • 00:34:29
    been at this point one other aquaculture
  • 00:34:30
    on the west coast
  • 00:34:34
    now the marvelous thing about the Lummi
  • 00:34:37
    says the Bureau of Indian Affairs was
  • 00:34:38
    mad at him with the exception of one or
  • 00:34:41
    two marine biologists nobody in the
  • 00:34:43
    Universities would talk to them because
  • 00:34:45
    they all thought that they were lazy and
  • 00:34:46
    unmotivated nobody in the foundations
  • 00:34:50
    would talk to them and nobody at the
  • 00:34:51
    local county level would talk to him so
  • 00:34:54
    you had an Indian tribe that for once in
  • 00:34:56
    its life was left alone nobody to give
  • 00:35:01
    them any advice
  • 00:35:02
    nobody to talk them into making bolo
  • 00:35:05
    ties or anything now it's four years
  • 00:35:09
    later the mummies have created a seven
  • 00:35:12
    hundred and fifty acre pond on their
  • 00:35:15
    tidal flats they've raised from
  • 00:35:18
    government and private sources five
  • 00:35:20
    million dollars within within five years
  • 00:35:23
    they will control Easter seed production
  • 00:35:25
    in the Pacific Basin they have upwards
  • 00:35:30
    of 60 tribal members now trained as
  • 00:35:32
    marine biologists these people are able
  • 00:35:35
    to take any kind of fish apart tell you
  • 00:35:38
    exactly what it's made of what its
  • 00:35:40
    problems are how you can adapt at
  • 00:35:42
    freshwater to saltwater and back
  • 00:35:45
    they're raising twenty million oysters
  • 00:35:48
    every four months they've converted
  • 00:35:51
    freshwater donaldson trout to seawater
  • 00:35:54
    they're able to take them back and forth
  • 00:35:57
    they're now going all over the South
  • 00:36:00
    Seas to the apples as advisors on the
  • 00:36:04
    aquaculture bill mending Affairs came
  • 00:36:09
    out took one look at the Lummi project
  • 00:36:12
    they said well you guys got away from us
  • 00:36:15
    but we'll get you back under the fold
  • 00:36:17
    sooner or later and we're never gonna
  • 00:36:19
    let another tribe get away with what you
  • 00:36:21
    got away with
  • 00:36:26
    and consequently as we talk about social
  • 00:36:29
    issues in the 70s that is the type of
  • 00:36:31
    reaction our best projects have gotten
  • 00:36:34
    that's the type of attitude that we've
  • 00:36:37
    had to face a large reason why we had
  • 00:36:43
    Alcatraz and the activist events is
  • 00:36:46
    because we have been dealing with an
  • 00:36:50
    American society that does not think for
  • 00:36:52
    itself
  • 00:36:54
    therefore we like other minority groups
  • 00:36:57
    had to go out and find a symbol that
  • 00:36:59
    would be easy for people to identify
  • 00:37:01
    with to be able to sway the public
  • 00:37:05
    opinion to be able to change the
  • 00:37:08
    conditions and policies that were
  • 00:37:09
    affecting us there are a lot of specific
  • 00:37:16
    things that can and should be done in
  • 00:37:19
    Indian Affairs before I close I'm going
  • 00:37:23
    to name three or four projects that we
  • 00:37:25
    desperately need help on but these are
  • 00:37:29
    short-term projects these are easy
  • 00:37:32
    political things these are things where
  • 00:37:36
    you are not required to think you're not
  • 00:37:38
    required to meditate you're not required
  • 00:37:40
    to examine your own values all you're
  • 00:37:41
    required to do is write letters gain
  • 00:37:44
    adherence to the cause develop political
  • 00:37:46
    pressure but the situation in the United
  • 00:37:51
    States is getting so serious now in
  • 00:37:58
    terms of revolution and I said this some
  • 00:38:00
    years ago at a sway go and all of the
  • 00:38:02
    longhairs booed me because revolution
  • 00:38:05
    was popular but I thought at that time
  • 00:38:07
    and I still think at this time America
  • 00:38:11
    is going to bore itself to death before
  • 00:38:13
    it does anything else
  • 00:38:19
    because seems to me that we have a
  • 00:38:21
    conglomerate of people who either cannot
  • 00:38:25
    or will not examine the fundamental
  • 00:38:27
    principles upon which they make their
  • 00:38:29
    decisions upon which they place their
  • 00:38:31
    values it seems to me this stems
  • 00:38:37
    directly back to your religious heritage
  • 00:38:42
    the religion preaches that you have
  • 00:38:44
    faith which in a practical context means
  • 00:38:49
    you believe what we tell you when you
  • 00:38:50
    don't question and I think that's been
  • 00:38:55
    drummed into Western man into Christian
  • 00:38:58
    man for so long that all he can do at
  • 00:39:02
    the present time is react all you have
  • 00:39:07
    to do is wave a symbol in front of him
  • 00:39:08
    any jumps can be across an American flag
  • 00:39:12
    a black fist a dollar bill whatever it
  • 00:39:17
    is it seems to me that we're not going
  • 00:39:22
    no matter how much social movement we
  • 00:39:24
    get in no matter how many new groups we
  • 00:39:26
    organize no matter how many presidential
  • 00:39:28
    candidates we support until there's a
  • 00:39:31
    fundamental reexamination of the
  • 00:39:35
    premises upon which people make their
  • 00:39:37
    decision of how they view the universe
  • 00:39:40
    how they view human beings now the view
  • 00:39:44
    the relationship to other forms of life
  • 00:39:46
    how they review their communities all
  • 00:39:51
    we're gonna see as a continual
  • 00:39:53
    spin-spin-spin and the unfortunate thing
  • 00:39:58
    is I think whether American Indians are
  • 00:40:03
    ready to take the responsibility or not
  • 00:40:05
    the only people standing in the way of a
  • 00:40:09
    total intellectual collapse of American
  • 00:40:12
    society are those traditional Indian
  • 00:40:15
    people who say no the universe is not
  • 00:40:17
    dead I as an Indian holy man can talk to
  • 00:40:22
    trees and rocks if you would get off
  • 00:40:25
    your jet planes and go out
  • 00:40:27
    there and listen the rocks would talk to
  • 00:40:30
    you and you could talk with them the
  • 00:40:34
    people who from the traditional
  • 00:40:36
    religions who say you cannot kill the
  • 00:40:39
    Coyotes you cannot kill the species as
  • 00:40:43
    bad as a species may appear to human
  • 00:40:47
    beings it was created by the same
  • 00:40:50
    Creator who created the rest of us and
  • 00:40:52
    it has an inherent right to live whether
  • 00:40:54
    we lund want it to live or not and I
  • 00:40:59
    think that point of view is the only
  • 00:41:01
    point of view that is truly
  • 00:41:04
    philosophically and religiously raised
  • 00:41:06
    as an alternative to what we see in the
  • 00:41:09
    United States today whether American
  • 00:41:13
    Indian people want to accept this
  • 00:41:14
    responsibility or not a certain
  • 00:41:17
    percentage of them are going to have to
  • 00:41:19
    speak out and say these things no matter
  • 00:41:25
    how much your cemeteries mean to you in
  • 00:41:28
    terms of your religion there's a
  • 00:41:30
    fundamental question of how your
  • 00:41:32
    cemeteries say what you are get through
  • 00:41:37
    your whole lives and even after death
  • 00:41:38
    you could not relate to the land that
  • 00:41:40
    you lived on even after you were dead
  • 00:41:44
    your relatives were afraid to give you
  • 00:41:46
    to that land and consequently by what
  • 00:41:50
    right do you call it your land only by
  • 00:41:54
    the right that you have guns at the
  • 00:41:56
    prison time to keep it but your spirits
  • 00:41:58
    are not there your bones are not there
  • 00:41:59
    and you are not there and I think all of
  • 00:42:04
    these issues are going to be raised in
  • 00:42:07
    one way or another in the next five
  • 00:42:10
    years
  • 00:42:13
    the thing that I greatly fear the
  • 00:42:18
    irrational 'ti of the white men who is
  • 00:42:21
    asked to think about the way he makes
  • 00:42:23
    his decisions I've tried to raise this
  • 00:42:27
    question in a number of contexts where
  • 00:42:30
    they were Christian clergymen who had
  • 00:42:32
    doctors degrees in theology
  • 00:42:36
    apparently educated men who could
  • 00:42:38
    examine alternatives in all I got was
  • 00:42:42
    either an irrational response that I was
  • 00:42:45
    going to hell and listen if I had to
  • 00:42:49
    play harps with Billy Graham and Orville
  • 00:42:51
    Roberts endlessly I'd go to hell
  • 00:42:59
    all those guys down at the Cotton Bowl
  • 00:43:01
    don't realize what they signed up for
  • 00:43:02
    let me tell you that if Kris
  • 00:43:07
    Kristofferson thinks he's going to write
  • 00:43:08
    those kind of songs in heaven he's got
  • 00:43:10
    another thought but that I think that
  • 00:43:19
    there's really the fundamental questions
  • 00:43:23
    that have to be raised
  • 00:43:26
    Indians have to raise them and those of
  • 00:43:29
    you who are post Christian or
  • 00:43:31
    non-christian or quasi Christian you've
  • 00:43:37
    got to raise these questions in your
  • 00:43:39
    universities in your schools in every
  • 00:43:43
    way you can
  • 00:43:48
    now I would predict a very very exciting
  • 00:43:51
    five years coming up more so than
  • 00:43:58
    perhaps anything happening in the 50s
  • 00:44:01
    and 60s in 1950 a book called worlds and
  • 00:44:08
    collision was published by manual
  • 00:44:11
    Velikovsky academic establishment turned
  • 00:44:16
    on this man and ripped him to shreds
  • 00:44:19
    went so far as to write predictions that
  • 00:44:22
    the man was crazy
  • 00:44:24
    in that if his theory was right they
  • 00:44:28
    said if Immanuel Velikovsky's theory is
  • 00:44:30
    Right Venus would have to be 800 degrees
  • 00:44:33
    in temperature well 12 years later they
  • 00:44:36
    found out it was one of your friends
  • 00:44:40
    from the Harvard Astronomical group
  • 00:44:45
    there said the Immanuel Velikovsky is
  • 00:44:47
    crazy if he's right the Sun has I think
  • 00:44:51
    it's a positive charge of 10 to the 19th
  • 00:44:53
    power and 3 or 4 years later an
  • 00:44:57
    Australian astronomer proved that the
  • 00:44:59
    Sun had a positive charge of 10 to the
  • 00:45:02
    19th power what Immanuel Velikovsky did
  • 00:45:06
    was take the religious myths and
  • 00:45:09
    folklore of people all over the globe
  • 00:45:13
    that described certain types of
  • 00:45:18
    celestial phenomena a lot of this
  • 00:45:22
    phenomenon were cloaked in what had been
  • 00:45:25
    regarded very superstitious pagan
  • 00:45:28
    legends that a bird and a dragon fought
  • 00:45:32
    and that all of these things happen and
  • 00:45:35
    he showed that the solar system we live
  • 00:45:38
    in is hardly a stable solar system that
  • 00:45:41
    Jupiter is an all probability a star
  • 00:45:45
    that this star ejected Venus as a comet
  • 00:45:49
    and that Venus nearly hit the earth
  • 00:45:50
    several times into what you have
  • 00:45:52
    described in the Bible in
  • 00:45:55
    Exodus the fall of Jericho all of these
  • 00:45:59
    things were actual
  • 00:46:00
    events the people witnessed and lived
  • 00:46:02
    through I mentioned this because on the
  • 00:46:07
    west coast students have taken up the
  • 00:46:10
    cause of this man and all they've asked
  • 00:46:12
    is for the people in the Universities to
  • 00:46:14
    give him a hearing not for anybody to
  • 00:46:18
    lose their scholarly reputation by
  • 00:46:22
    supporting the theory but simply to give
  • 00:46:25
    it a hearing I've talked with some of
  • 00:46:29
    the best archaeologists in Colorado and
  • 00:46:30
    they gave me a very scientific statement
  • 00:46:33
    they said I would not read the man
  • 00:46:34
    because he's crazy and I said well how
  • 00:46:38
    do you know he's crazy unless you've
  • 00:46:39
    read it and they said well anybody who
  • 00:46:42
    would write anything like that must be
  • 00:46:43
    crazy and I said anything like what
  • 00:46:45
    because you admit that you haven't read
  • 00:46:47
    the book they said well we wouldn't read
  • 00:46:50
    anything like that
  • 00:46:55
    and I think that again all relates back
  • 00:46:58
    to the situation we face today
  • 00:47:03
    I'm terribly disappointed that the
  • 00:47:06
    avant-garde Christian theologians that
  • 00:47:08
    couldn't see that if the Bible incidents
  • 00:47:12
    were true this put their religion on a
  • 00:47:14
    very high plane I was very disappointed
  • 00:47:17
    until two days ago in Chicago when I
  • 00:47:20
    brought this up to a Episcopalian and I
  • 00:47:25
    thought I would have a lot of chance to
  • 00:47:26
    communicate with Episcopalian because
  • 00:47:28
    they're very liberal people they believe
  • 00:47:32
    that the knots in the Ten Commandments
  • 00:47:33
    were later editions by conservative and
  • 00:47:40
    this guy in particular was a very high
  • 00:47:45
    church liberal man and he told me that
  • 00:47:50
    religiously even if the idea was correct
  • 00:47:54
    that they could not consider it because
  • 00:47:56
    this would place all of the creation
  • 00:47:58
    stories of the various religions on an
  • 00:48:01
    equal basis and would do away with a
  • 00:48:03
    Christian doctrine of creation and I
  • 00:48:07
    said you should be most thankful for
  • 00:48:08
    Immanuel Velikovsky because somebody
  • 00:48:11
    ought to do away with the Christian
  • 00:48:12
    doctrine of creation because that's why
  • 00:48:14
    we're in the mess that we're in
  • 00:48:18
    consequently I have no doubts my own
  • 00:48:20
    mind that this man's theory is going to
  • 00:48:22
    carry the remaining decades of this
  • 00:48:24
    century that he's going to open up all
  • 00:48:27
    of the sciences even pseudo-sciences
  • 00:48:32
    like anthropology he's going to give us
  • 00:48:37
    a new vision of what the experiences of
  • 00:48:39
    mankind were now one of the fundamental
  • 00:48:44
    opening points that has blocked Indian
  • 00:48:50
    religions from being considered as valid
  • 00:48:52
    tribal valid religions for mankind is
  • 00:48:57
    the Indian creation stories the Navajo
  • 00:49:00
    the hopi Mandan all of them refer to a
  • 00:49:04
    world catastrophe where the people
  • 00:49:06
    survived underground and then a friendly
  • 00:49:09
    spiritual being showed them the way to
  • 00:49:11
    the next world when you put these
  • 00:49:15
    legends in the cosmology of this man
  • 00:49:19
    religion becomes an entirely different
  • 00:49:21
    thing and each religion must stand on
  • 00:49:25
    its ability to produce something today
  • 00:49:27
    and not on a for ordained idea of
  • 00:49:30
    history we have systematically issued a
  • 00:49:34
    challenge to Christians and other
  • 00:49:36
    religions if they can go out to Arizona
  • 00:49:40
    and after the Hopi have made it rain if
  • 00:49:43
    they can get down on their knees and dry
  • 00:49:45
    it up they get equal time
  • 00:49:49
    if they can't and we know they can then
  • 00:49:55
    they've got to step back and listen and
  • 00:50:00
    I think these are a number of very
  • 00:50:03
    serious issues that were confronted with
  • 00:50:05
    today they're entirely different than
  • 00:50:07
    the issues that we've had to face in the
  • 00:50:09
    60s entirely different than the issues
  • 00:50:12
    in 1968 and different than political
  • 00:50:14
    issues today they require the same
  • 00:50:17
    seriousness the same examination the
  • 00:50:21
    same thoughtfulness the same commitment
  • 00:50:25
    if we don't do that and inner undertake
  • 00:50:31
    a complete examination of all the values
  • 00:50:36
    fundamental beliefs of Western
  • 00:50:38
    civilization and judge them on their
  • 00:50:40
    merits we are going to continue to have
  • 00:50:45
    American presidents who are against
  • 00:50:48
    abortion because they believe in the
  • 00:50:50
    sanctity of human life and who can
  • 00:50:51
    continue a war in Southeast Asia for
  • 00:50:53
    four years and called both those actions
  • 00:50:57
    Christian and see no schizophrenia in
  • 00:51:00
    that type of belief and I think I think
  • 00:51:04
    those are the issues we've got to deal
  • 00:51:07
    with whether you like it or not it's my
  • 00:51:11
    belief that eventually you will have to
  • 00:51:14
    confront and make a choice between
  • 00:51:18
    traditional Western values traditional
  • 00:51:22
    values of American Indian tribes in
  • 00:51:24
    their conception of life and so I think
  • 00:51:28
    we are your opponents for the next
  • 00:51:30
    decade and I think we're gonna win
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