What Stress, Burnout, And Hustle Culture Do To Your Body | Bryan Johnson Podcast
Summary
TLDRCe podcast explore la culture du martyr dans le monde moderne, où les individus croient qu'ils doivent sacrifier leur santé pour réussir. Les intervenants, dont des entrepreneurs et des professionnels de la santé, partagent leurs expériences et des données sur les effets néfastes du surmenage, tels que l'augmentation des risques de maladies cardiaques et de burnout. Ils soulignent l'importance de prioriser la santé pour améliorer la performance et le bien-être général. Des conseils pratiques sont offerts pour établir des routines saines et créer un équilibre entre vie professionnelle et personnelle, tout en remettant en question les normes culturelles qui valorisent le sacrifice de soi.
Takeaways
- 💡 Prioriser sa santé est essentiel pour réussir.
- 📉 Le surmenage augmente le risque de maladies graves.
- 🛌 Établir des routines de sommeil est crucial.
- 🤝 Les relations personnelles souffrent du surmenage.
- 📊 Les statistiques montrent les dangers du burnout.
- 🏋️♂️ L'exercice régulier améliore la productivité.
- 🍏 Une bonne nutrition est liée à de meilleures performances.
- 🚫 Éviter les voyages fréquents pour préserver la santé.
- 🗣️ Encourager un dialogue ouvert sur la santé au travail.
- 🌍 La culture moderne doit valoriser la santé avant le succès.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
Les gens sont de plus en plus passionnés par la culture moderne, souvent au détriment de leur santé, cherchant le statut et la richesse à tout prix. Cette quête peut mener à une forme de martyrisation de soi-même, où la santé est sacrifiée pour le succès.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Aujourd'hui, nous allons aborder la culture du martyr déguisée en culture héroïque. Il est possible d'atteindre le succès sans sacrifier sa santé, et nous allons démontrer que prioriser sa santé peut mener à de meilleurs résultats en matière de succès et de bonheur.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Le mythe selon lequel il faut sacrifier sa santé pour réussir est profondément ancré dans notre culture. Nous allons explorer pourquoi cette idée est erronée et comment revenir à un état de santé optimal.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
L'expérience de Brian, qui a vendu sa société pour 800 millions, montre qu'il aurait pu être encore plus prospère s'il avait priorisé sa santé. Sacrifier sa santé pour le succès professionnel est une erreur commune.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Les attentes dans le monde des affaires et de la médecine poussent souvent les individus à négliger leur santé. Les systèmes en place encouragent un comportement qui nuit à la santé personnelle et professionnelle.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
La culture du travail moderne valorise le surmenage, ce qui nuit à la santé individuelle et à celle des entreprises. Les jeunes professionnels ressentent cette pression, mais il est crucial de reconnaître les effets néfastes de cette culture.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Les médecins et les entrepreneurs partagent des expériences similaires de sacrifice de leur santé pour réussir. Les attentes de performance dans ces domaines sont souvent démesurées et négligent le bien-être personnel.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Des études montrent que le surmenage augmente considérablement le risque de maladies cardiaques et d'autres problèmes de santé. Travailler plus de 55 heures par semaine est lié à des taux de mortalité plus élevés.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
Il est essentiel de reconnaître que sacrifier sa santé pour le succès professionnel est une illusion. Les décisions prises sous pression peuvent nuire à la performance et à la qualité de vie.
- 00:45:00 - 00:52:13
Pour améliorer la santé et la performance, il est crucial de créer des systèmes de soutien qui priorisent le bien-être, comme établir des routines de sommeil et d'exercice, et éviter le surmenage.
Mind Map
Video Q&A
Qu'est-ce que la culture du martyr ?
C'est l'idée que l'on doit sacrifier sa santé pour réussir professionnellement.
Quels sont les effets du surmenage sur la santé ?
Le surmenage augmente le risque de maladies cardiaques, de diabète et nuit aux relations personnelles.
Comment prioriser sa santé tout en réussissant ?
En établissant des routines de sommeil, d'exercice et de nutrition, et en fixant des limites claires.
Pourquoi la culture moderne valorise-t-elle le surmenage ?
Elle valorise le succès, le statut et la richesse, souvent au détriment de la santé.
Quels conseils donneriez-vous pour éviter le burnout ?
Établir des non-négociables pour le sommeil, l'exercice et la nutrition.
Comment la santé influence-t-elle la performance professionnelle ?
Une meilleure santé conduit à une meilleure productivité, des décisions plus judicieuses et des relations plus saines.
Quelles sont les statistiques sur le surmenage ?
Le burnout augmente le risque de crise cardiaque de 78% et les travailleurs de plus de 55 heures par semaine ont un risque accru de décès.
Comment la culture du martyr affecte-t-elle les jeunes professionnels ?
Elle crée une pression pour sacrifier leur bien-être au profit de la réussite.
Quels changements culturels sont nécessaires ?
Il faut valoriser la santé comme une priorité pour réussir, plutôt que de sacrifier son bien-être.
Comment aborder la conversation sur la santé au travail ?
Encourager un dialogue ouvert sur l'importance de la santé et des limites personnelles.
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- 00:00:00People are equally, if not more zealous
- 00:00:06about this modern culture than people
- 00:00:08were in previous religious cultures
- 00:00:11where the prize they have to win is so
- 00:00:14intensely identified, right, the status,
- 00:00:16power, wealth, that they're literally
- 00:00:20willing to themselves even in a slow mo
- 00:00:22fashion to achieve that prize. It's just
- 00:00:25like people are transfixed in a
- 00:00:27zombie-like fashion. They don't have
- 00:00:31control over themselves.
- 00:00:31Hi friends. Today we're going to talk
- 00:00:36about martyrdom culture that we
- 00:00:38masquerade as hero culture. Now I get
- 00:00:41it. You are ambitious. You are smart.
- 00:00:43You're talented. You have big dreams for
- 00:00:46life. You want to be rich and powerful
- 00:00:48and have high status. Those are all
- 00:00:51things everybody wants. Also, there is a
- 00:00:53way to go about doing it that does not
- 00:00:56require you to martyr your health. A lot
- 00:00:58of people have this bad idea in their
- 00:01:00mind that if they compromise their
- 00:01:01health that somehow it will help them
- 00:01:04achieve better success. Today we're
- 00:01:05going to highlight the evidence that
- 00:01:08shows that is a bad idea. You can in
- 00:01:09fact prioritize your health and achieve
- 00:01:12better outcomes in your success,
- 00:01:14happiness, and status. Let's go. You
- 00:01:15know, I've always wondered like what if
- 00:01:17a branch started growing out of my head?
- 00:01:18Like it was like
- 00:01:20two nights ago I had this dream. I would
- 00:01:22turn and there'd be like a root growing
- 00:01:24out of my skin in the middle of nowhere.
- 00:01:26It was like
- 00:01:27it's terrifying.
- 00:01:28At some point, do you like start
- 00:01:29creating little seedlings and like
- 00:01:31dropping little Brians all over the
- 00:01:33place?
- 00:01:35Like plant them in the yard. This true
- 00:01:36fusion. Like we think about merging with
- 00:01:36AI.
- 00:01:38It becomes this nightmare situation
- 00:01:40where you can't get away from these
- 00:01:42needy seedlings.
- 00:01:43And all all night long there's like
- 00:01:47Brian, Brian, shut up. I'm swear I'm
- 00:01:49going to cut you down. You got to be
- 00:01:50quiet. What's happening?
- 00:01:52Oh my god.
- 00:01:53Are we ready?
- 00:01:55Yes. Today we're going to talk about one
- 00:01:57of the biggest myths of modern life and
- 00:01:59that's the idea that you need to martyr
- 00:02:01your health in order to be successful.
- 00:02:04This has been so ingrained into the
- 00:02:06psyche of people who want epic
- 00:02:07professional success. We're going to get
- 00:02:10to the bottom of why this silly myth of
- 00:02:13martyrdom has made itself a mainstay in
- 00:02:15our culture and why it's wrong and how
- 00:02:17you can make the corrective actions to
- 00:02:19get yourself back to peak health and
- 00:02:22peak performance. So you you're coming
- 00:02:25from the other side too, like you were
- 00:02:28you're a convert in this new wave of
- 00:02:30like looking after your health. So a lot
- 00:02:32of people a they don't realize that you
- 00:02:34built Brainree Benmo, sold it to PayPal
- 00:02:37for eBay for 800 million and so made a
- 00:02:41[ __ ] ton of money. And people hear that
- 00:02:43story and they think, "Wow, Brian, you
- 00:02:44are only doing what you're doing now
- 00:02:46because you had access to money and
- 00:02:47there's no way you could have been that
- 00:02:49successful." And recently, for the first
- 00:02:50time, I heard you say that you think
- 00:02:52that you would have made more money had
- 00:02:55you been sleeping better. Is that right?
- 00:02:57Unquestionably, I would have made more
- 00:02:59money and been more successful had I
- 00:03:01made health my top priority.
- 00:03:03Can you like talk because I think a lot
- 00:03:04of people don't realize a lot of people
- 00:03:05aren't in the startup world. They're not
- 00:03:07building businesses. So you're
- 00:03:10specifically from what I understand you
- 00:03:14sold the company at a point where it hit
- 00:03:17a certain valuation but really primarily
- 00:03:19because you couldn't go on any longer.
- 00:03:22So the truth of the matter is that
- 00:03:25nobody is going to achieve peak success
- 00:03:28when your health is in a bad spot. And
- 00:03:30that is true for me and there's actually
- 00:03:32two of us in the call today on the
- 00:03:34podcast today that have gone through the
- 00:03:36same experience. Dr. Allen also went
- 00:03:38through the same trajectory as me, I
- 00:03:40think. Is that right, Dr. Mike? With uh
- 00:03:42emergency medicine
- 00:03:46to some extent. Yeah. I mean, um do you
- 00:03:47mean like
- 00:03:50uh are we using the B- word burnout?
- 00:03:50Like
- 00:03:51Yeah.
- 00:03:52Oh, wow.
- 00:03:54Yeah, for sure. For sure.
- 00:03:56I mean, basically as well. Is it fair to
- 00:03:59say you and I were both introduced to a
- 00:04:04culture that sacrificed health for some
- 00:04:08kind of professional idea of success?
- 00:04:11Yeah, I would say a professional ideal
- 00:04:15like it an expectation of how you behave
- 00:04:17in that profession. And I think both of
- 00:04:22us were um uh subject to that maybe even
- 00:04:23without even realizing it for a while.
- 00:04:25At least I was personally
- 00:04:27that's exactly what I would identify is
- 00:04:30that the systems that said hey we're
- 00:04:33going to tell you to behave like this
- 00:04:35like you know sleep like this eat like
- 00:04:39this look like this be like this not
- 00:04:41because the data says it's the best for
- 00:04:43you or because it produces the best
- 00:04:45outcomes do these things because the
- 00:04:47system designed by we don't even know
- 00:04:49who
- 00:04:50says to do these things and so I know
- 00:04:52for me in it's very true in in
- 00:04:55entrepreneurship ship culture. You are
- 00:04:58expected to sacrifice your health. So
- 00:05:02there's no amount of travel is too much.
- 00:05:04There's no amount of sleep is too
- 00:05:06little. There's, you know, you can
- 00:05:08sacrifice your your exercise routines.
- 00:05:11You would eat junk food so long as your
- 00:05:14revenue is climbing, your employee count
- 00:05:16is increasing, you know, and you're
- 00:05:18raising more money. And so it just
- 00:05:21really is a a spectacular failure of our
- 00:05:24societal systems that have us do these
- 00:05:26things that are extremely detrimental to
- 00:05:28our individual health, our company's
- 00:05:31health, and everybody around us. And I
- 00:05:33think it's so silly that we have bought
- 00:05:35into these notions. So I say, you know,
- 00:05:37it's relevant here that I did this as an
- 00:05:39entrepreneur, Mike did this in the in
- 00:05:41the medical world. So it's not just like
- 00:05:43one industry. Kate, you're in a for a
- 00:05:46fortunate situation where I mean, you
- 00:05:50tell me, but you're 29 years old and so,
- 00:05:51you know, I guess I'm curious on what
- 00:05:53your experience has been in terms of the
- 00:05:55the systems that you were introduced to
- 00:05:57in the world and how success was framed
- 00:05:59to you. But, uh, let me jump to Mike
- 00:06:02first, like Mike, would you say your
- 00:06:03experience was similar to mine in terms
- 00:06:05of what the system told you to do and
- 00:06:08what it rewarded you to do? Yeah, I mean
- 00:06:11in the sense that I got exposed to in
- 00:06:14medicine a world where physicians are
- 00:06:16expected to just crush themselves. I
- 00:06:18mean it starts immediately from medical
- 00:06:19school. So like you know I thought
- 00:06:21undergrad was hard. you know, I did
- 00:06:23chemical engineering undergrad and like
- 00:06:25worked really hard and then then I
- 00:06:27started medical school and was just
- 00:06:31blown away by the expectations placed on
- 00:06:32medical students in terms of like how
- 00:06:34hard they had to study and then that
- 00:06:36compounded within residency and then
- 00:06:38professional life and it's just like a
- 00:06:39step-wise function of increasing
- 00:06:42expectations and a lack of focus on like
- 00:06:45personal health. like you never get
- 00:06:48taught how to be healthy and also be a
- 00:06:50professional in medicine at the same
- 00:06:53time. And it was just expected. Like
- 00:06:54there was no like there's no
- 00:06:56conversation. There was no like me
- 00:06:57sitting down in a medical school
- 00:06:58interview and then being like, "Hey, are
- 00:06:59you ready to sacrifice your health and
- 00:07:01your longevity for this this
- 00:07:03profession?" Like nobody ever asked me
- 00:07:05that, right? It's just like, "Oh, being
- 00:07:06a doctor sounds great. You know, I want
- 00:07:08to help people." And then next thing you
- 00:07:09know, it's like, "I want to sacrifice my
- 00:07:12own health to help people." And that was
- 00:07:14never explicitly said to me. And I don't
- 00:07:16think I the same is true as an
- 00:07:17entrepreneur. I think
- 00:07:19is it clear I think I saw this stat
- 00:07:22correct me if I'm wrong in terms of life
- 00:07:24expectancy for medical professionals
- 00:07:27that emergency med doctors had the
- 00:07:30lowest I think it was like 59 or
- 00:07:30something like that.
- 00:07:33It's crazy low. It's very low.
- 00:07:34I mean had I known that I never would
- 00:07:36have gone into emergency medicine. You
- 00:07:38know, it's like somebody can't sell you
- 00:07:39on a career when they're like, "Hey, you
- 00:07:41know, by the way, you're probably going
- 00:07:42to die about 15 years younger than the
- 00:07:45average human." Cool, right? No. No
- 00:07:46thanks.
- 00:07:48Mike, you you were saying also something
- 00:07:50else about uh this being applicable not
- 00:07:53just to the medical world or
- 00:07:54entrepreneurship world, but
- 00:07:56yeah, I don't think this is just unique
- 00:07:59to medicine or the world of
- 00:08:01entrepreneurship. I think that this is
- 00:08:03pretty much every professional career
- 00:08:05and almost like a societal level
- 00:08:09expectation that we crush ourselves uh
- 00:08:12for the benefit of our I don't even know
- 00:08:15what we're benefiting like theoretically
- 00:08:16I think there's some this theoretical
- 00:08:17benefit that you have to crush yourself
- 00:08:19in order to be successful in life or in
- 00:08:22order to like you know do good for
- 00:08:25mankind or or humankind but I but I
- 00:08:27don't think I think it's misguided.
- 00:08:29Yeah. You know, I could not agree with
- 00:08:32you more. I I think that in our global
- 00:08:35system that
- 00:08:38we are pawns
- 00:08:42for the system and we are disposable for
- 00:08:45the system's progress. But the insanity
- 00:08:48this moment is the system is the
- 00:08:50priority of the species and we are
- 00:08:52disposable.
- 00:08:55And we we compensate for that situation
- 00:08:59by trying to give ourselves trophies for
- 00:09:01success you know power wealth status but
- 00:09:04it's a giant cope for the fact that we
- 00:09:07are martyrs for system bigger than
- 00:09:08ourselves and I think the opportunity
- 00:09:11here is to shift it to say we no long
- 00:09:13and this is like you when you when death
- 00:09:16is inevitable that's kind of the only
- 00:09:18thing you can do to cope or you can like
- 00:09:20you know identify an afterlife and be
- 00:09:22like actually there's a bigger system at
- 00:09:23play here and we're going to triumph
- 00:09:26over the system. But in practical terms,
- 00:09:28this is why I I think that what we're
- 00:09:30doing is don't die is correct that when
- 00:09:32existence itself becomes the priority,
- 00:09:34we are no longer pawns and will be
- 00:09:36arbitrageed in, you know, for the
- 00:09:38systems winning and but so it's like
- 00:09:41such a big concept, but we play these
- 00:09:44micro games of the modern to try to earn
- 00:09:46our own status, power, respect within
- 00:09:48the the circles we run. Kate, what's
- 00:09:50been your your I mean, you're 29 years
- 00:09:52old. What's been your life experience in
- 00:09:54terms of the culture that you walk into
- 00:09:56as a professional and what pressures do
- 00:09:58you feel?
- 00:10:01Yeah, I mean um being in the startup
- 00:10:02community in New York, like you
- 00:10:04definitely feel the pressure to say,
- 00:10:06"Hey, I've been working so hard. I've
- 00:10:09been staying up all night working on
- 00:10:11this project." And then it's funny. I
- 00:10:13think in the fashion industry, there's a
- 00:10:15little bit more of a social pressure to
- 00:10:18go out, have drinks, connect with
- 00:10:20people. smoking is a little bit more
- 00:10:22prevalent in that community. So there's
- 00:10:24a little bit more of like this like cool
- 00:10:27person debaucherous behavior in the
- 00:10:28fashion community. So I think it's
- 00:10:31interesting like being in both worlds of
- 00:10:34startup and fashion back in the day. Um
- 00:10:36but yeah, I totally agree like we if you
- 00:10:37like really step back and look at it
- 00:10:40soberly, it's it's not a good situation.
- 00:10:42in my conversation with uh I primarily
- 00:10:45speak to founders and when they're going
- 00:10:47through this process and I can tell when
- 00:10:50I enter this conversation and I try to
- 00:10:53persuade them hey like let's just start
- 00:10:56with some baseline observations
- 00:10:58you do not want to write inefficient
- 00:11:00code right like your goal is to write
- 00:11:03efficient code your goal is to run
- 00:11:05efficient hardware you don't want sloppy
- 00:11:07hardware you don't want sloppy software
- 00:11:10you want efficient systems
- 00:11:12You are software and hardware and you do
- 00:11:15not want to run sloppy software hardware
- 00:11:17on yourself and that's what happens when
- 00:11:19you don't make healthier top priority.
- 00:11:20Now like in those basic terms like they
- 00:11:24get it but then when they see themselves
- 00:11:26uh competing against other people who
- 00:11:28are willing to monitor themselves they
- 00:11:29feel like they're going to fall behind
- 00:11:32if they don't do it. So they don't take
- 00:11:34the same number of international trips
- 00:11:37if they're not you know uh sleeping 3 to
- 00:11:38four hours a night. they're not working
- 00:11:39that many hours in the day, even if
- 00:11:40they're not productive, like it's the
- 00:11:42perception that they're falling behind.
- 00:11:45But I have found it is incredibly hard
- 00:11:49to get people to feel comfortable they
- 00:11:53can safely prioritize their health and
- 00:11:55not fall behind. And they just won't let
- 00:11:57it go. They're so attached to this
- 00:11:59ideology just like it's almost like
- 00:12:01hanging from the monkey bars. Like you
- 00:12:03you just can't like you feel like you if
- 00:12:04you let go
- 00:12:05there's there's no safety net. You're
- 00:12:07not going to be caught. What do you guys
- 00:12:07think that's about?
- 00:12:09Do you think that they believe in the
- 00:12:11first place that this is bad for them? I
- 00:12:13mean, I the first question, right? Like,
- 00:12:15do they even believe us?
- 00:12:17So, I would like to hypothesize that the
- 00:12:18person sitting on the other side
- 00:12:20listening to us right now is part of
- 00:12:23hustle culture and may not realize a
- 00:12:25that they're part of hustle culture and
- 00:12:27b that it's impacting their health. So I
- 00:12:30would love to go through like what it
- 00:12:33means, what happens to the individual
- 00:12:34when they are a porn in the system,
- 00:12:35assuming that we believe that for a
- 00:12:37second. What happens when you don't get
- 00:12:39enough sleep? What happens when you um
- 00:12:41are burnt out? The b word. And then once
- 00:12:43we So then once you once everyone's
- 00:12:45agreed upon those terms, Brian, that's
- 00:12:47when all of that angst kicks up because
- 00:12:49then you come face to face with like,
- 00:12:50wait, do I need to make a decision
- 00:12:53between myself and my company? And we
- 00:12:54can untangle that, too.
- 00:12:56Okay, cool. All right, let's jump into
- 00:12:58the evidence. We have a bunch of
- 00:13:01evidence prepared. Let's go over it and
- 00:13:03let's see what effect
- 00:13:05uh hustle I mean I don't know if I even
- 00:13:06want to call it hustle culture because
- 00:13:10hustling is a good thing. So like
- 00:13:12is there a word we can use that it's
- 00:13:16like almost um destructive
- 00:13:16because people
- 00:13:19it's just work culture. It's just
- 00:13:21current work culture.
- 00:13:22Work is a positive word. We needed
- 00:13:25something that captures that it's an
- 00:13:27illusion
- 00:13:28like you.
- 00:13:32Oh, it's like um ma modern culture.
- 00:13:34Yeah, but it's modern culture
- 00:13:36masquerading as hero culture,
- 00:13:37right?
- 00:13:38All right, let's go through the
- 00:13:38evidence. We'll come back on the
- 00:13:40mimemetics. It's going to happen. It's
- 00:13:41coming.
- 00:13:42Yeah, it's coming.
- 00:13:44Okay, Mike, do you want to start us off
- 00:13:46with some of the evidence we put
- 00:13:48together as we evaluated this topic?
- 00:13:50Yeah. So, as we went through this, I
- 00:13:52think there's like three or four
- 00:13:54statements that we can make around the
- 00:13:57evidence um with regard to this type of
- 00:13:58culture whose word we haven't identified
- 00:14:01what it is yet. But basically, one
- 00:14:04overwork will kill you. Two, working too
- 00:14:07much destroys your relationships. Three,
- 00:14:09all-nighters and sleep disruption causes
- 00:14:12heart disease and diabetes. And four,
- 00:14:14sleep disruption and overwork makes you
- 00:14:16a bad leader. So, let's let's break
- 00:14:18those down. So overwork will kill you.
- 00:14:20This has been well studied. There was a
- 00:14:22meta analysis in 2022 that basically
- 00:14:24came to the conclusion that burnout
- 00:14:27increases heart attack risk by 78%. Let
- 00:14:29that seep in for a second. Like burnout
- 00:14:32increases heart attack risk by 78%.
- 00:14:34That's huge. That's more than like most
- 00:14:36of the things that we talk about when
- 00:14:37we're talking about like taking supp
- 00:14:40certain supplements or exercising or
- 00:14:42like all of these things have fairly
- 00:14:44minimal in uh changes to your actual
- 00:14:47risk. 78% is is massive. And then there
- 00:14:49was another study that showed the amount
- 00:14:51of work, so working beyond 55 hours per
- 00:14:54week, was led to about 800,000 deaths
- 00:14:57from stroke and heart disease in 2016.
- 00:14:59And that those people who worked greater
- 00:15:03than 55 hours per week had a 35% higher
- 00:15:06risk of stroke and a 17% higher risk of
- 00:15:09death from heart attack. So, we know
- 00:15:11without a shadow of a doubt that working
- 00:15:13too much, whether that's just the sense
- 00:15:15of the b- word burnout or if it's just
- 00:15:16the number of hours you're putting in a
- 00:15:18week actually has a direct impact on
- 00:15:21your your livelihood and how long you're
- 00:15:22going to live.
- 00:15:24So, Mike, in that let me let me be the
- 00:15:25devil's advocate in this. Okay, I just I
- 00:15:28just heard what you said and um I'm
- 00:15:30thinking, you know what, Mike, I get it.
- 00:15:33I'm not really interested in living, you
- 00:15:36know, 80 years of life. I'm okay to
- 00:15:38trade off my last 10 years of life so I
- 00:15:41can be epic in my 20s, make a ton of
- 00:15:43money, and then I can just reverse the
- 00:15:45damage I did in my 20s, I can do it in
- 00:15:47my 30s and 40s. So, I'm willing to to
- 00:15:49take this gamble and make the trade-off.
- 00:15:51Can you what's what's your argument
- 00:15:52there?
- 00:15:55Well, so first first off, it there's a
- 00:15:57difference between um making it up and
- 00:16:00then just having like worse actual
- 00:16:03livelihood or um life quality during the
- 00:16:05years that you currently have. So the
- 00:16:07the counterargument to what you just
- 00:16:09suggested is that you're actually going
- 00:16:12to see lower performance the harder
- 00:16:13you're working. So when you're pushing
- 00:16:15yourself, you're likely not sleeping as
- 00:16:17much, right? You're likely not spending
- 00:16:19as much time with family and friends.
- 00:16:20You're hurting your social
- 00:16:22relationships. you're not sleeping,
- 00:16:23you're not eating appropriately, you're
- 00:16:24not exercising. All those things
- 00:16:28actually reduce your likelihood of um of
- 00:16:30of performing at the highest possible
- 00:16:32level. And this gets, I think, to what
- 00:16:33you were talking about, Brian, in terms
- 00:16:37of like you feel like um you could have
- 00:16:39been even more successful than you were
- 00:16:41had you been taking better care of
- 00:16:43yourself. And the research actually
- 00:16:45supports that statement. So, if we look
- 00:16:48at, for example, relationships, working
- 00:16:49too much destroys your relationships.
- 00:16:50That was the second statement that that
- 00:16:53we made. There was a um interesting uh
- 00:16:55trial that was done in Belgium where
- 00:16:57employees shifted to a 30-hour work week
- 00:16:58and they actually found that they had
- 00:17:01generally higher well-being, just a
- 00:17:03sense of overall well-being. And that
- 00:17:06that was mostly uh generated by lower
- 00:17:09work and family conflict. And we've seen
- 00:17:11this time and time again in research
- 00:17:13studies where people who work more have
- 00:17:14more trouble with their f in their
- 00:17:16family life. they have more trouble in
- 00:17:18their in their relationships and they
- 00:17:21don't get as much uh general happiness
- 00:17:24from their life because they're just
- 00:17:26crushing themselves at work basically.
- 00:17:28Yeah. Okay, cool. So my my initial
- 00:17:32knee-jerk reaction to you would be uh
- 00:17:34lacking in
- 00:17:38awareness of the second and third and
- 00:17:41fourth order consequences that if I
- 00:17:43begin this process and I have some level
- 00:17:46of health deterioration
- 00:17:48that I am I'm thinking that it may only
- 00:17:50affect end of life and or that I can
- 00:17:52make it up in my 30s 40s. But what I'm
- 00:17:54not accounting for are the other points
- 00:17:56you laid out in the beginning to say
- 00:17:59it's going to begin uh the its ruinous
- 00:18:01effects on my relationships. It's going
- 00:18:04to begin my ru it's going to begin uh
- 00:18:07lessening I it's going to diminish my
- 00:18:09abilities as a leader and it's going to
- 00:18:10have all these other following
- 00:18:13consequences. So my first reaction to
- 00:18:16you is is totally inaccurate. That is
- 00:18:18not the trade-off I'm making. It's a
- 00:18:20much more sophisticated cascade of
- 00:18:22consequences than I'm anticipating and I
- 00:18:24haven't fully groed what it really
- 00:18:25means. Is that fair?
- 00:18:27Yeah, that's totally fair.
- 00:18:29Yeah. And um specifically like there's a
- 00:18:31couple other stats here. Sleep
- 00:18:34restricted CEOs make 29% more risky
- 00:18:36errors in lab simulations. So like
- 00:18:38you're going to be a worse immediate
- 00:18:40leader. So, the trade-off of short-term
- 00:18:43to long-term falls flat when you're a
- 00:18:47worse CEO, leader, builder,
- 00:18:50er, medicine doctor. Um, and that fit
- 00:18:52workers log two extra productive hours
- 00:18:54per week. So, your productivity of
- 00:18:56either your team or yourself also
- 00:18:58increases with better health decisions
- 00:19:00in the immediate term.
- 00:19:02You also make better decisions. Like
- 00:19:03that one study where they looked at
- 00:19:05Israeli judges. I find this one super
- 00:19:07impressive. So this was Israeli judges,
- 00:19:09judges that are determining whether
- 00:19:11someone should make parole or not. And
- 00:19:12they found that in the morning when
- 00:19:16they're most arrested that 65% of people
- 00:19:19made parole, but right before lunch 0%
- 00:19:22made parole. It's like the timing of day
- 00:19:24actually turn and this has been this has
- 00:19:26been shown in CEOs as well where not
- 00:19:27only are you making worse decisions, but
- 00:19:29you're actually like more pessimistic
- 00:19:32and less charismatic when you're tired.
- 00:19:34So there was a study looking at um at
- 00:19:36leaders who were sleepd deprived and in
- 00:19:38those sleep-d deprived leaders people
- 00:19:40perceived them as being less charismatic
- 00:19:43and they made poor decisions and did not
- 00:19:45lead their team quite as well which is
- 00:19:47like makes total sense when you think
- 00:19:49about it right I mean how often have you
- 00:19:50been sleepd deprived and then felt like
- 00:19:52you had less energy people pick up on
- 00:19:55that even if it's you know even if it's
- 00:19:56subconscious they pick up on the fact
- 00:19:57that you're not charismatic you're not
- 00:20:00as understanding you're not as kind like
- 00:20:02that stuff makes total sense
- 00:20:04Quick detour here that in my personal
- 00:20:06life with really close interpersonal
- 00:20:09relationships, it it's become so obvious
- 00:20:12to me now that I'm like observing myself
- 00:20:14to have hard conversations before 5:00
- 00:20:17p.m. If if it's 5:00 p.m., like you're
- 00:20:20the chance of a hard conversation going
- 00:20:23wrong is so much higher. So, just avoid
- 00:20:24it now. Cuz like if we all have this
- 00:20:26goal of working things out together,
- 00:20:28then it doesn't make any sense to do
- 00:20:30things after 5 p.m. that are difficult.
- 00:20:32My wife Britney and I have this um had
- 00:20:35this term when I was working er shifts
- 00:20:38called night shifted where uh we would
- 00:20:40specifically avoid difficult
- 00:20:42conversations after I was coming off a
- 00:20:43night shift.
- 00:20:44Yeah. Because
- 00:20:46100%. because and I I recognized this
- 00:20:49too, but like um she picked up on the
- 00:20:52fact that like I was just so quick to um
- 00:20:54to cut her down or like say something
- 00:20:57negative or be pessimistic or like just
- 00:20:59be like aggro because I didn't get
- 00:21:01enough sleep, right? So like we
- 00:21:03literally named it and like changed
- 00:21:05behavior around it. Like I remember this
- 00:21:08one time I was coming off of uh this was
- 00:21:10actually in residency um overshare for a
- 00:21:12minute. So I was coming off of a an ICU
- 00:21:14shift. It was one of those like 36-hour
- 00:21:16shifts. So, like not only are you awake
- 00:21:17like all throughout the night, but
- 00:21:19you're also working like 36 hours
- 00:21:21straight. And I was walking the dog.
- 00:21:22Actually, I was running the dog. And
- 00:21:25like this other dog came and started
- 00:21:27like running with us. And like I
- 00:21:28couldn't get it to go away. I was kind
- 00:21:29of shoe it away, right? It was just me
- 00:21:30and my dog running. I don't want this
- 00:21:32dog bothering us. And it's like running
- 00:21:33in and out of the street, runs in front
- 00:21:35of this car. And this nice old lady
- 00:21:37stops and she like says something to me
- 00:21:39and I don't really hear her, but I infer
- 00:21:40that she was saying something brood. And
- 00:21:44I just start cussing her out. Oh my god.
- 00:21:45Like
- 00:21:48she looked at me like I was the like the
- 00:21:50worst human in the world and just like
- 00:21:52drove away. And then like after she left
- 00:21:53I was like maybe she was trying to say
- 00:21:56something kind.
- 00:21:59I was so reactive and I was just I was
- 00:22:00night shifted, man. That's like all
- 00:22:02there was to it. But like it just like
- 00:22:03it tells the story of like this
- 00:22:05pessimism and this this lack of like
- 00:22:07empathy that happens when we're when
- 00:22:09we're sleep deprived. And I think a lot
- 00:22:10of people don't even realize it.
- 00:22:12Yeah. Mike, if you really wanted to burn
- 00:22:14her, you'd be like, "You better hope
- 00:22:16you're not in the ER."
- 00:22:18Oh, man. I was like I was like, "F you,
- 00:22:21you effing." I mean, it was bad. It was
- 00:22:24like so not me. But like, that's what
- 00:22:25happens.
- 00:22:28Yeah. My in my first uh my previous
- 00:22:31relationship, I I tried to make this
- 00:22:33rule that, you know, like realizing that
- 00:22:37when 6 or 7 p.m. Brian arrived, like it
- 00:22:39was not a good situation for almost
- 00:22:41anything. I getting the kids bathed,
- 00:22:42fed, and put to bed was like the only
- 00:22:45thing I could muster up. And so I tried
- 00:22:48to introduce this concept, but uh my
- 00:22:51partner at the time uh needed to do
- 00:22:54emotional reconciliation. Like she felt
- 00:22:55like it was a necessity of her
- 00:22:58existence. And so she would break
- 00:23:00protocol and I would just plead with her
- 00:23:03like we can't like if we do this, it's
- 00:23:04just going to go off the rails. It's
- 00:23:06going to make things worse. And she
- 00:23:08would persist. And so then it it was
- 00:23:12just an absolute nightmare where I tried
- 00:23:15to set the rules but then she needed to
- 00:23:17like address this like she had needs as
- 00:23:19well but it was just like this train
- 00:23:20wreck of a situation.
- 00:23:22Yeah. So um I've been on the other side
- 00:23:23of that where I'm like we need to have
- 00:23:25this conversation now like there's no
- 00:23:27way right but that's the crazy thing is
- 00:23:30that like consciousness makes you feel
- 00:23:33like who you are in the moment is you.
- 00:23:36And so until you can separate from that,
- 00:23:38like you just don't realize it. And so
- 00:23:40that's why it's so such a I feel so
- 00:23:41liberated to be on the other side of
- 00:23:44that now and be like, "Okay, absolutely
- 00:23:48after 5:00 p.m. Kate is bad at having
- 00:23:50emotional stability period. Any
- 00:23:52emotional like even with team members
- 00:23:54when I'm like going to have a hard
- 00:23:56conversation, I'm like be careful when I
- 00:23:58schedule it because I'm like I know I
- 00:24:01need to be my best self." Um so I
- 00:24:02empathize with that situation. I think
- 00:24:05this conversation is like detangling
- 00:24:08who we are at different time periods and
- 00:24:10recognizing like when you are sleep.
- 00:24:11It's like in the situation with Mike,
- 00:24:14you could totally witness someone losing
- 00:24:16their temper and be like, have they
- 00:24:18slept recently? Like have empathy toward
- 00:24:20those situations because it's just like
- 00:24:21people don't realize what's good for
- 00:24:22them.
- 00:24:24Yeah. Okay. So, back to the evidence. So
- 00:24:26far, we've covered that you have
- 00:24:29dramatic increases in cardiovascular
- 00:24:31risk profile. 78% uh increased
- 00:24:34likelihood of heart attack. You're less
- 00:24:36charismatic. Your personal relationships
- 00:24:40become ruinous. Uh Kate, you mentioned
- 00:24:43on uh lessened sleep quality, I think.
- 00:24:44Oh, no. Mhm.
- 00:24:46Yeah. What other evidence do we have
- 00:24:48that suggests that this martyrdom
- 00:24:52culture masquerading as hero culture is
- 00:24:53bad for somebody?
- 00:24:56Well, there's also the um the phys
- 00:24:58physical fitness evidence. So the more
- 00:25:00physically fit you are, the less sick
- 00:25:03you are. So um there's pretty close
- 00:25:06relationship between how um whether you
- 00:25:09exercise, what percentile of fitness
- 00:25:11you're in, and then how many days you
- 00:25:13miss of work a year. So not just in
- 00:25:15terms of like how well you perform, but
- 00:25:17also are you even at work. So the top
- 00:25:1925th percentile of physical fitness
- 00:25:22misses on average about two days per
- 00:25:24year, whereas the bottom 25 percentile
- 00:25:26misses about six days per year. So
- 00:25:28you're actually making an investment in
- 00:25:30how much you're able to totally work by
- 00:25:32be by being physically fit. So it goes
- 00:25:36beyond just sleep gets into fitness and
- 00:25:39then also into diet. So if we roll into
- 00:25:42the diet realm, there's decisions around
- 00:25:44what we eat and a lot of times this
- 00:25:47martyrum culture makes poor decisions
- 00:25:49around diet out of convenience. And what
- 00:25:52we've seen is that cognitive performance
- 00:25:54tracks almost directly with diet in
- 00:25:56terms of the more convenient food that
- 00:25:58you eat. And by convenient, I'm talking
- 00:26:00about like ultrarocessed junk food,
- 00:26:03quick food, fast food, things like that.
- 00:26:06Basically, what every serving of of this
- 00:26:08sort of food, ultrarocessed food that
- 00:26:10you eat per day increases your risk of
- 00:26:13dementia by about 13%. So, not only do
- 00:26:14we see a long-term increased risk of
- 00:26:17dementia, but we also see a change in
- 00:26:18terms of your actual performance
- 00:26:20dayto-day and your actual decisions that
- 00:26:23you're making. So, it's fairly clear
- 00:26:25that not just in terms of sleep and
- 00:26:27exercise, but also diet, we're having
- 00:26:29direct effects on our ability to perform
- 00:26:31in these sorts of situations.
- 00:26:34Do you think we've convinced them?
- 00:26:36Probably not.
- 00:26:38You almost have to live it. You know,
- 00:26:39it's like one of those things where
- 00:26:40like,
- 00:26:41you know, there's some things like
- 00:26:43people just have to experience before
- 00:26:45they can really believe them. And I feel
- 00:26:47this is like because it's so ingrained
- 00:26:48in the culture and you see everybody
- 00:26:50doing it. I feel like this might be one
- 00:26:50of those.
- 00:26:52Yeah, that was true.
- 00:26:54It's also the case that the uh for most
- 00:26:58people like I guess for a while religion
- 00:27:01was a very motivating force. people
- 00:27:03would do anything
- 00:27:05to be compliant with their religious
- 00:27:07obligations so they could receive the
- 00:27:10afterlife reward. And people are
- 00:27:13equally, if not more zealous about this
- 00:27:16martyrdom culture than people were in
- 00:27:18previous religious cultures where the
- 00:27:23the prize they have to win is is so
- 00:27:25intensely
- 00:27:27um identified right the status power
- 00:27:30wealth that they're literally willing to
- 00:27:33suicide themselves even in a slow mo
- 00:27:35fashion to achieve that prize. It's just
- 00:27:38like people are transfixed
- 00:27:40in a zombie-like fashion. They don't
- 00:27:42have control over themselves. And that's
- 00:27:43what it seems like to me is like when
- 00:27:45I'm talking to somebody,
- 00:27:46I think they can hear these stats of
- 00:27:49like, you know, it's all like mumbled
- 00:27:51like heart attack risk performance and
- 00:27:54but it's like just background noise, but
- 00:27:57they hear this triumphant anthem of the
- 00:27:59victory of the man in the arena in the
- 00:28:02arena, you know, framework. It's like
- 00:28:03it's and so I I do in the same way that
- 00:28:05I guess I I really have reflected a lot
- 00:28:10on my own inability to like the dramatic
- 00:28:13reduction of my self-control with 11
- 00:28:16days of international travel I and and
- 00:28:19basically feeling almost powerless to
- 00:28:21actually make my own decisions because
- 00:28:23my body is just destroyed. I'm now in
- 00:28:26primitive brain land. I think in many
- 00:28:28ways the people who are doing this are
- 00:28:32in some way, shape or form in some kind
- 00:28:35of deficient state of wisdom where they
- 00:28:37cannot make good decisions on their own
- 00:28:39behalf. It's a really weird
- 00:28:41psychological phenomena. They just don't
- 00:28:42they don't want to recognize it. They
- 00:28:44don't want to square with it andor they
- 00:28:46see it and they're rationally just
- 00:28:47saying it's the trade-off is worth it to
- 00:28:49me. I'd rather just play modern culture
- 00:28:51and pretend like it's not there. It's
- 00:28:53kind of like it's kind of human nature
- 00:28:55to some extent to be this
- 00:28:57future focused to like like this sense
- 00:29:00of delayed gratification which we even
- 00:29:02teach to children right we teach them
- 00:29:04delayed gratification and future focus
- 00:29:05and and all these things and it's just
- 00:29:08taking it's taking them out of presence
- 00:29:09right it's taking them out of being in
- 00:29:11like you know the present moment living
- 00:29:12in the present moment and that doesn't
- 00:29:14need that doesn't need to be like this
- 00:29:16woo thing it can also just be like the
- 00:29:19idea of like can I be my best self and
- 00:29:21also still succeed
- 00:29:23in this future moment. Do I have to like
- 00:29:25go so far as that I'm sacrificing? And I
- 00:29:27think that's that's the issue is that
- 00:29:29it's just being pushed too far. There's
- 00:29:31nothing wrong with future focusing and
- 00:29:33delayed gratification. It was just like
- 00:29:34you don't have to go crazy about it,
- 00:29:38right? So I if we're saying that like um
- 00:29:40we're constantly feature focused and in
- 00:29:43the past we were some form of religion
- 00:29:47focused, we've now swapped that out for
- 00:29:48status/wealth
- 00:29:52money as a religion or as a framework.
- 00:29:54And the argument that we're trying to
- 00:29:56make in this call is to swap out health
- 00:29:59as a religion. like make that your
- 00:30:01number one priority in life for this
- 00:30:02future thinking that Mike's talking
- 00:30:05about. And in this transition phase,
- 00:30:07one, you can still earn status, money,
- 00:30:09wealth in society and make healthy
- 00:30:11number one priority. We're arguing that.
- 00:30:13And then two is in this transition
- 00:30:15state, it's really painful and very
- 00:30:17uncomfortable. And if you're feeling
- 00:30:20internal angst hearing this conversation
- 00:30:22cuz you're like, you guys, like that
- 00:30:25just sounds impossible. There is a way.
- 00:30:28it doesn't need to feel so scary. So, I
- 00:30:29think that's the thing that we need to
- 00:30:30tackle now as a group.
- 00:30:32Okay, cool. Yeah, it's also the case
- 00:30:35that there's there's probably a few uh
- 00:30:36easy bridges here. For example, like
- 00:30:38when you look at an Olympic athlete or
- 00:30:41even professional athletes,
- 00:30:44no, very few if anybody argues that it's
- 00:30:46good for an athlete to be sleepd
- 00:30:48deprived, to not have good nutrition, to
- 00:30:51you know, to travel too much. Like it's
- 00:30:53just a an expectation like clearly their
- 00:30:56bodies are their primary asset and if
- 00:30:57they don't take care of their bodies
- 00:30:58they're not going to perform in the
- 00:30:59court and they're going to lose. But
- 00:31:02somehow the fact that entrepreneurs or
- 00:31:04or professionals generally compete with
- 00:31:06their minds and their emotions and their
- 00:31:08judgment. They somehow don't view
- 00:31:11themselves as subject to the same
- 00:31:13physical requirements. It's just really
- 00:31:16a a a disconnect of cognition
- 00:31:18that like we don't pair the two that
- 00:31:20when you want ideal performance you need
- 00:31:21to treat you need to treat your only
- 00:31:24asset with this kind of um rigorous uh
- 00:31:26health approach. So yeah just I think in
- 00:31:30time I I I do think we are winning the
- 00:31:32war. Uh I think that the culture is
- 00:31:34shifting. I think that people
- 00:31:36increasingly see this martyrm culture is
- 00:31:38really bad. it does produce a bad
- 00:31:40outcomes and that I I've seen many of my
- 00:31:42friends and and um particularly
- 00:31:47investors they really care and evaluate
- 00:31:50the founders's health when making an
- 00:31:52investment that if the founder is not
- 00:31:54health forward they second guess their
- 00:31:55decisions because they know it just
- 00:31:56compromise so I do think we're winning
- 00:31:58the war all right cool so let's jump to
- 00:32:00that so Kate you're saying that people
- 00:32:02are like okay guys look I buy it but
- 00:32:06you've got to give me an easy on-ramp I
- 00:32:09can't spend 5 hours a day. So like give
- 00:32:10me the the argument that this is
- 00:32:12actually doable with my my really
- 00:32:13intense schedule.
- 00:32:17Yeah. Um and I would put forth first
- 00:32:19this is how I transitioned between the
- 00:32:22two arenas of competition in today's
- 00:32:26world is treating this is like going to
- 00:32:28sound [ __ ] up but I think it works for
- 00:32:30people like myself who were
- 00:32:31indoctrinated into this previous
- 00:32:37mindset. Treat sleep like work. treat it
- 00:32:40like it is a hustle in of itself. So
- 00:32:45when 12 PM rolls around, my desire is to
- 00:32:47stay up and do things because I become
- 00:32:49very creative during that time period. I
- 00:32:52love spending that time awake. I have to
- 00:32:54delay gratification in that moment and
- 00:32:59say you are working Kate, you need to go
- 00:33:01to sleep. like that is part of. So in
- 00:33:04fact like people perceive this at least
- 00:33:05how I perceived it that sleep is a
- 00:33:10luxury and something that I can that um
- 00:33:12is slacking off to be completely honest.
- 00:33:14That's definitely how I viewed it. Like
- 00:33:15I'm
- 00:33:19I'm relaxing by sleeping. And so if you
- 00:33:20treat it if you're the kind of person
- 00:33:24that works 24/7 like I do, I treat now
- 00:33:27uh sleep as work. So it actually factors
- 00:33:30into the, you know, I need to have this
- 00:33:32meeting today. I need to have this call
- 00:33:34today while also I need to go to sleep
- 00:33:35today. And like even when I don't want
- 00:33:37to go to sleep, I have to go to sleep
- 00:33:39cuz that's my job to actually go to
- 00:33:41sleep. So like that's the bridge that I
- 00:33:43that I I've played in this tricking
- 00:33:43myself.
- 00:33:45Mike, how does that frame land for you?
- 00:33:47If if Kate says that frame, you know,
- 00:33:50treat sleep like work, does that
- 00:33:52increase does that improve your um
- 00:33:53anxiety or alone?
- 00:33:55Oh, yeah. just like does that does that
- 00:33:57resonate with you?
- 00:33:59Not really. Not really. Like for for me
- 00:34:01just for me it doesn't. I mean I think
- 00:34:03that like that's it's great that it
- 00:34:05works for Kate, but for me personally it
- 00:34:08doesn't as much because
- 00:34:10um yeah I I get a bit I have to be
- 00:34:12careful with sleep. Like I get a bit
- 00:34:13anxious about sleep if I'm not getting
- 00:34:16the sleep that I need. And that leads to
- 00:34:19more lack of sleep, more insomnia. And
- 00:34:21that's just my my own personal like
- 00:34:22anxiety stuff that I got to work
- 00:34:25through. But like calling it work to me
- 00:34:29gives it a um another level of like
- 00:34:31requirement, you know what I mean? So,
- 00:34:33so for me what for me what actually like
- 00:34:35seems to work better is like um this
- 00:34:38more like compassionate approach where I
- 00:34:41kind of for me I like depersonalize it
- 00:34:43because there's like there's so much
- 00:34:46like self- judgment built up in my own
- 00:34:48personal expectations around my own
- 00:34:50career and success and all those things
- 00:34:53that I end up treating myself without
- 00:34:57any um compassion and what I truly need
- 00:34:59in order to take care of myself for
- 00:35:00sleep or for exercise or diet. is just
- 00:35:03more self-compassion. And the way for me
- 00:35:06to do that is to imagine rather than
- 00:35:08making a decision for myself, I'm making
- 00:35:10like a decision for my child or for a
- 00:35:11cared one or for someone that I can
- 00:35:13easily find that compassion for.
- 00:35:15Like even like when I was a physician
- 00:35:17working in the ER, how would I want my
- 00:35:19doctor to take care of themsel, right?
- 00:35:21As opposed to like should I go to bed
- 00:35:22right now? It's like well would my
- 00:35:24patients tomorrow want their doctor to
- 00:35:25go to bed right now? like that sort of
- 00:35:27like depersonalizes it for me and allows
- 00:35:28me to find the empathy and the
- 00:35:30compassion that I can't find otherwise
- 00:35:32just when I'm thinking about like what I
- 00:35:34should be doing.
- 00:35:35I'd love that. Yeah.
- 00:35:38So, if if I've got this like brutal uh
- 00:35:40you need work 24/7 like turn that into
- 00:35:43sleep mentality and Mike has the empathy
- 00:35:44route where he's looking after himself
- 00:35:47as a parent would. How do you do it,
- 00:35:51Brian? What's your mental model? Yeah, I
- 00:35:53think well first of all I think that
- 00:35:56there is a group of of people who do
- 00:35:57really
- 00:36:00feel this they feel the pain and
- 00:36:03discomfort of the modern culture and
- 00:36:05they want an exit path but they feel
- 00:36:07trapped with the expectations of others
- 00:36:09and so I think that's probably the
- 00:36:10biggest segment. And so I was at a
- 00:36:11conference cate the conference we were
- 00:36:14at this past week and there were two
- 00:36:16founders there from Australia and I said
- 00:36:18you guys uh and they were talking about
- 00:36:21that they basically were doing one
- 00:36:24international trip I think every 30 days
- 00:36:26or so you because I guess Australia is
- 00:36:30the middle of nowhere. No offense Kate.
- 00:36:31It's true.
- 00:36:33So they they you know going to Asia and
- 00:36:35the states it was just a lot and the
- 00:36:37Middle East. And so I was going through
- 00:36:40the the devastating uh health effects of
- 00:36:41international travel and telling them
- 00:36:43what I had been going through from
- 00:36:45Europe. And one of the founders turned
- 00:36:46to me and said, "I'm going to tell my
- 00:36:49board that Brian Johnson said I can only
- 00:36:52make one international trip each month."
- 00:36:54And I said, "That's right. Tell them
- 00:36:57that that your investors do not want you
- 00:36:59to travel more than one time per month
- 00:37:02because if you do, it's going to lessen
- 00:37:04your performance. It's going to increase
- 00:37:05anxiety, depression. It's going to hurt
- 00:37:07your relationships. It's going to mess
- 00:37:09up your all of your biological systems.
- 00:37:11You will build a better company if you
- 00:37:14can create a limited budget of
- 00:37:15international travel. Now, if you need
- 00:37:17to make break and do something like two
- 00:37:20trips over a 90-day period of time,
- 00:37:22okay? But just realize there's
- 00:37:24definitely a budget. It is not an
- 00:37:25infinite amount of time you have doing
- 00:37:27this. And he I think he really felt
- 00:37:29emboldened in that conversation that if
- 00:37:31he had cover like if his investors
- 00:37:33wanted him to have that kind of
- 00:37:34limitation, you know, if they didn't
- 00:37:36want him to travel internationally, I
- 00:37:38think he would feel much more empowered.
- 00:37:41So to me, it's it's most people want
- 00:37:43social permission
- 00:37:45to do the things they know they want to
- 00:37:47do. And right now like even the like
- 00:37:50every I feel like everyone is is
- 00:37:52enslaved by modern society to various
- 00:37:54degrees. I was thinking about this this
- 00:37:57morning that the the peak existence
- 00:38:01right now is actually agency. It's the
- 00:38:03ability to be free of entrapment of
- 00:38:06various things. And the the forces of
- 00:38:08the world are so good at entrapping us
- 00:38:10with addictive algorithms, addictive
- 00:38:12foods, addictive social feeds,
- 00:38:14addictive, you know, porn like that. The
- 00:38:16world is so good at getting us into
- 00:38:19these these locked in dopamine uh
- 00:38:23addiction cycles. It's entrament. And
- 00:38:25once you then are missing out on sleep
- 00:38:27and you lose more of your willpower,
- 00:38:29that enttrapment becomes stronger and
- 00:38:31stronger to like this strangulation. And
- 00:38:33people intuitively feel it and they're
- 00:38:35mad when they're told that they can't
- 00:38:36they that they should just stop it. It's
- 00:38:38like they can't they don't they have no
- 00:38:40more willpower left and the addictions
- 00:38:41are too strong. And so I understand like
- 00:38:43and so I think it's just giving them
- 00:38:47permission of like uh hey person like um
- 00:38:48the people doing this to you need to
- 00:38:50stop. Like they're [ __ ] you up. this
- 00:38:52is bad for you, it's bad for society,
- 00:38:54but it just that's kind of like the
- 00:38:56wedge because if you put it back on the
- 00:38:57person and be like, "Hey person, you
- 00:38:59must the willpower to do it." It's a
- 00:39:01really hard equation. If you have if you
- 00:39:03have cover from others who are like,
- 00:39:04"You know what? We support you in doing
- 00:39:06this." It makes it so much easier.
- 00:39:08So, if someone's like, "Okay, fine. I'll
- 00:39:11like figure out my mental model." Um, I
- 00:39:12know we always say the same thing. It's
- 00:39:14sleep diet exercise
- 00:39:16practically.
- 00:39:18So, can I I'll I'll talk through a
- 00:39:19couple ways that like I do this in my
- 00:39:21life.
- 00:39:22So if someone's listening to this and
- 00:39:23they're like okay how do I actually
- 00:39:25start to implement this one is blocking
- 00:39:27out a morning routine to get things
- 00:39:30done. So saying like I'm not going to do
- 00:39:33XYZ before this time period. So I think
- 00:39:35Brian everything on your calendar is
- 00:39:36scheduled like after 10 a.m. for
- 00:39:38example. Same thing for me.
- 00:39:38Mhm.
- 00:39:40And then on the tail end as well. Same
- 00:39:42thing for sleep. So when a social event
- 00:39:44comes up that you've planned in your
- 00:39:47mind like that that time allocation it's
- 00:39:49already taken up by default. And then if
- 00:39:51you are going to work around it like you
- 00:39:53have to plan otherwise as opposed to the
- 00:39:54other way around where it's like sleep
- 00:39:56will happen whatever your calendar
- 00:39:58allows for it. So I' say those two
- 00:40:01things and then for travel um being
- 00:40:03really really sober about the fact it
- 00:40:06has and treating it with
- 00:40:09that level of commitment. So, I know for
- 00:40:11for Brian and I when we were planning
- 00:40:12this Europe trip, I was thinking about
- 00:40:14it like two months in advance being,
- 00:40:16okay, got to get ready, got to get
- 00:40:18ready. Like, I need to be mentally in
- 00:40:20the right space for this um planning
- 00:40:22calendars accordingly. Like, previously,
- 00:40:24I would travel red eyes. Um, when I was
- 00:40:26going back and forth between New York
- 00:40:28and LA a lot because I was like, that's
- 00:40:31the best time to get my uh travel out of
- 00:40:33the way so I have the day to do things.
- 00:40:35And now I look back on that I'm like
- 00:40:38that is wild that I thought that I was
- 00:40:41saving time by traveling overnight. And
- 00:40:43so same thing for travel like booking
- 00:40:45the plane trip that aligns with your
- 00:40:48sleep and morning routine schedule as
- 00:40:50much as possible. So those are a couple
- 00:40:52things that have really worked for me.
- 00:40:53I feel like Brian does a really good job
- 00:40:56of this. Um having non-negotiables,
- 00:40:57right? like
- 00:40:59like it is non-negotiable that I am
- 00:41:02going to do my whatever 40step morning
- 00:41:05routine that takes 3 and 1 half hours or
- 00:41:06whatever whatever crazy thing it is
- 00:41:08right now.
- 00:41:11Sorry, five and a half. Yeah. Like and
- 00:41:13my my like wind down routine that takes
- 00:41:14you know another hour and a half or
- 00:41:16whatever it is. But like no I mean but
- 00:41:18in all joking aside like those
- 00:41:20non-negotiables are extremely important
- 00:41:21because one thing we're really good at
- 00:41:23doing to ourselves is talking ourselves
- 00:41:25out of things, right? So the minute you
- 00:41:28give yourself any leeway to convince
- 00:41:30yourself that there's an alternative
- 00:41:32that is acceptable, you're going to take
- 00:41:33it every single time. And that's
- 00:41:36especially true in type A people who are
- 00:41:37like the same people that are very
- 00:41:40successful in life because they they're
- 00:41:42very good at arguing and convincing you
- 00:41:43of something. And that means they're
- 00:41:44good at convincing themselves of
- 00:41:45something, too.
- 00:41:47Yeah. And I think that a lot of people
- 00:41:48when they listen to this, they're going
- 00:41:51to say, "I don't have the luxury of a
- 00:41:54morning routine, right? like I'm I'm on
- 00:41:56calls with Asia, you know, at this time
- 00:41:57of night. I'm on calls with the Middle
- 00:41:59East at this time of night. And I've got
- 00:42:01blank like so they've got very seriously
- 00:42:02I've got kids who wake up in the
- 00:42:04morning. I've got like parents I'm
- 00:42:06taking care of. Like people have really
- 00:42:10serious life limitations. And so I I get
- 00:42:11that. And so I guess the question is
- 00:42:17like how how do you um try to create a
- 00:42:19culture of health given that people's
- 00:42:22lives are practically very complex and
- 00:42:24there's no oneizefits-all. And so we I
- 00:42:26guess like if we review the things we've
- 00:42:29talked about, this is why I like resting
- 00:42:32heart rate before bed so much because no
- 00:42:35matter who you are, that is the one
- 00:42:38thing you can build life systems around.
- 00:42:41So, like Mike was saying, uh, I try to
- 00:42:44never let myself make decisions because
- 00:42:46I know if I make a decision in that
- 00:42:49moment, like if it's just like a on the
- 00:42:51spot, whatever Brian feels like
- 00:42:53decision, I will most likely make the
- 00:42:57wrong decision. And so you I want like
- 00:42:59morning Brian, high in willpower, who
- 00:43:00wants good things for myself to be
- 00:43:02making system decisions, not 700 p.m.
- 00:43:04who's worn down, out of willpower, wants
- 00:43:07to soo himself with whatever. And so the
- 00:43:08resting heart rate, you can go back and
- 00:43:10listen to a previous episode we did on
- 00:43:14this on the the ways you can focus on
- 00:43:15reducing your heart rate, but very
- 00:43:18simple things like a lot of people
- 00:43:20report that rumination is their number
- 00:43:23one problem. So like yesterday, a guy
- 00:43:25came over to the house. We I was giving
- 00:43:26a bunch of people a tour the other the
- 00:43:29clinic and he said, "I've done
- 00:43:32everything to optimize my health. Like I
- 00:43:34do red light. I eat my last meal of the
- 00:43:36day four hours before bed. I you know
- 00:43:37blank blank and he said I just can't
- 00:43:39sleep. And so I was like okay this is a
- 00:43:42puzzle. So I probed it around a little
- 00:43:45bit and it's his rumination that he is
- 00:43:49tip a he is incredibly ambitious. Every
- 00:43:50night before he goes to bed he's like
- 00:43:52now how do I you know change the world
- 00:43:54in this way one or the other. And so I
- 00:43:56was like okay so that rumination is
- 00:43:58going to cost you five to 25 beats per
- 00:44:01minute. And so you and you like first of
- 00:44:04all you have to rec reconcile that is
- 00:44:06not the moment to try to solve the
- 00:44:07world's problems. All right? Like you
- 00:44:08need to like separate. So we walk
- 00:44:10through the whole routine of what
- 00:44:11rumination is, how you talk through it,
- 00:44:13how you minimize it is he's going to
- 00:44:14report back to me.
- 00:44:16I think if if what we should probably do
- 00:44:17is like we should probably bring a few
- 00:44:20guests on here like that so people can
- 00:44:22hear this dialogue of like what they're
- 00:44:23going through because in their mind
- 00:44:25they're doing everything right and this
- 00:44:28like one or two things just slips by and
- 00:44:29undercuts everything else and the bad
- 00:44:31sleep leads to poor willpower which has
- 00:44:34other cascade. So I'm guessing that we
- 00:44:35can say whatever we want but we probably
- 00:44:37just need a few real life examples.
- 00:44:39Good point. Yep. Agreed.
- 00:44:41Mike, by the way, how's your TV series
- 00:44:44The Pit going?
- 00:44:47I've taken a break.
- 00:44:49I'm taking an extended break. It was uh
- 00:44:51I did another one after we had the last
- 00:44:55podcast and um it crushed me like and
- 00:44:57um I just uh yeah, I took a I'm taking a
- 00:44:58break right now. Maybe you get back to
- 00:45:00it like on Saturday morning or
- 00:45:00something.
- 00:45:03On Saturday, I had a minute and I was I
- 00:45:04was going to watch the show or something
- 00:45:08and I searched the pit and I couldn't
- 00:45:09What platform is it on?
- 00:45:10It's on Max. Yeah.
- 00:45:12Okay. All right. So, I was going to try
- 00:45:14to simulate a Mike Min experience and
- 00:45:16watching The Pit.
- 00:45:18What happened? Did you do it?
- 00:45:19No. So, I'll do it this coming weekend.
- 00:45:20I'll watch an episode.
- 00:45:22So, like that's that's something I need
- 00:45:24a guardrail around. It's like I my
- 00:45:26guardrail needs to be I do not watch The
- 00:45:28Pit after 6 p.m. or something like that.
- 00:45:29like that's you know like you just
- 00:45:31create these guardrails of things that
- 00:45:34are just non-negotiables that and I
- 00:45:37think you know what's interesting is I
- 00:45:39think that that that's like the main
- 00:45:42thing for me like when it comes to like
- 00:45:44stepping into this world of prioritizing
- 00:45:47health is just identifying like you know
- 00:45:50just like the top three five things that
- 00:45:52you feel are most important to you and
- 00:45:54then create those guardrails there's
- 00:45:56non-negotiables around it and just start
- 00:45:58there like that to me like Maybe it's I
- 00:46:01don't eat junk food. Maybe it's I'm in
- 00:46:03bed by 10 p.m. Maybe it's, you know, I'm
- 00:46:05up an hour before the kids so I can
- 00:46:07meditate and journal. Like like whatever
- 00:46:09it is for you that it feels most
- 00:46:10important to you. And it's probably
- 00:46:11different for everybody. Like just
- 00:46:13starting there seems like a really like
- 00:46:15easy place to get going, you know?
- 00:46:16Yeah. I think for people listening, I
- 00:46:18guess I would try to summarize this
- 00:46:21conversation. I would say this.
- 00:46:26Don't give up your power.
- 00:46:28So true. You want you want to
- 00:46:30concentrate your power. You want to be
- 00:46:33as powerful as you can as a human. And
- 00:46:36the best way to be powerful is to claim
- 00:46:39your agency. And anything that steps on
- 00:46:43your power or agency is bad for you. And
- 00:46:45so that includes if culture is telling
- 00:46:48you to do martyrdom, it's going to ruin
- 00:46:50your power, right? It's going to enslave
- 00:46:52you in a system that's not your making
- 00:46:53of not your choice. And it's going to
- 00:46:54make you a lesser human being. It's
- 00:46:56going to destroy your willpower. It's
- 00:46:57going to increase your cardiovascular
- 00:46:58risk. It's going to make you a less
- 00:47:00charismatic leader. It's going to ruin
- 00:47:02your insulin sensitivity. It's going to
- 00:47:03you're going to become fat. Like it's
- 00:47:05just bad. And then just go down the
- 00:47:09list. Do not let the world take your
- 00:47:11power. And that to me is a very clean
- 00:47:12statement. Like people understand that
- 00:47:15people want power, status, and wealth.
- 00:47:18So don't lose power. And so that may
- 00:47:19resonate, you know. Then also I'd say
- 00:47:22second thing is is um be these things
- 00:47:24because when you be these things when
- 00:47:26you are these things other people will
- 00:47:27see this and they will respond
- 00:47:30correspondingly and when they do you
- 00:47:32have more societal permission to do it.
- 00:47:33If everybody went to bed on time nobody
- 00:47:35would think about it but it's the fact
- 00:47:36that there are some outliers who are
- 00:47:39like they're so loud of like it's
- 00:47:41amazing and the only way to success to
- 00:47:43you know sleep 3 hours per night they
- 00:47:46that they create this cultural illusion
- 00:47:48that that's what it takes. And so the
- 00:47:50more the zeitgeist can shift to this the
- 00:47:53the better uh the more cover someone's
- 00:47:54going to have. And then three is once
- 00:47:56you experience this I think you will
- 00:47:58feel for yourself you will become a
- 00:47:59better leader. You will become a better
- 00:48:01entrepreneur a better professional
- 00:48:03better parent child friend co-orker like
- 00:48:04you'll become better at everything you
- 00:48:06do. You will not have to sacrifice your
- 00:48:08success by doing this. And you just have
- 00:48:11to just just cross over that threshold.
- 00:48:12You will realize that and experience it.
- 00:48:13Then you can speak to it with
- 00:48:15confidence. Okay. I guess as we wrap
- 00:48:17Kate just a quick roundup. You were sick
- 00:48:20last week. Uh Mike and I missed you.
- 00:48:22Glad you're back. How are you feeling?
- 00:48:24I'm feeling much better. Still a little
- 00:48:27congested, but yeah, definitely. Uh
- 00:48:29whenever you're sick, it's a always a
- 00:48:31good reminder to be like, take care of
- 00:48:32your health cuz when you're sick, you
- 00:48:35realize how bad it is. So, I'm glad I'm
- 00:48:35back.
- 00:48:38And then Kate is going to Croatia and so
- 00:48:40we are concerned about more
- 00:48:43international travel. Uh Kate, can you
- 00:48:44tell us about that?
- 00:48:46Yeah, what do I do about this? I'm going
- 00:48:48to Croatia for my cousin's wedding. It's
- 00:48:52a big deal. I rarely get to celebrate
- 00:48:55with my Bosnian family. So, it's a big
- 00:48:57big deal.
- 00:48:59I'm kind of I'm dreading I'm just going
- 00:49:01to I'm not going to get sick. I'm going
- 00:49:03to avoid that with all
- 00:49:04get sick because you're going to listen
- 00:49:05to the podcast that Brian and I recorded
- 00:49:09last week.
- 00:49:10Yeah. What do I do? So, wish me luck.
- 00:49:15Well, the good news, Kate, is you are
- 00:49:18very well prepared. You now know all the
- 00:49:20you have all the evidence on what you
- 00:49:22can do to make the best of the
- 00:49:23circumstances.
- 00:49:24It's true.
- 00:49:26Yeah. Mike, um, how are you doing in
- 00:49:26life?
- 00:49:29I'm pretty great. Um, I'm not traveling
- 00:49:31a lot right now, which is amazing for my
- 00:49:34sleep, and I'm not watching The Pit,
- 00:49:36which is also amazing for my sleep. So,
- 00:49:38yeah, things are things are good.
- 00:49:39So, you're you're in a nice steady
- 00:49:42routine. You're feeling good.
- 00:49:44Yeah. This will inevitably not last for
- 00:49:46very long, but uh going to try to enjoy
- 00:49:47it while it's here.
- 00:49:50Yeah, those those durations where you're
- 00:49:52at home in a routine consistency are the
- 00:49:52best.
- 00:49:54That's the best, isn't it? Yeah.
- 00:49:57Brian, um any observations lately about
- 00:49:59your health that you want to slip in?
- 00:50:00Like I'm just seeing red light therapy
- 00:50:02before bed experiment.
- 00:50:04A few quick ticks. You can see on my
- 00:50:06face that my face is pretty destroyed.
- 00:50:09On Friday, I did a 1927 nanometer laser.
- 00:50:11This is Lutronic. So, this is a
- 00:50:14nonablative laser. So, we're trying to
- 00:50:16basically rebuild collagen, elastin,
- 00:50:19lessen wrinkles. Um, and so this is like
- 00:50:21we shaved off maybe 30% of my face with
- 00:50:23this. I had numbing cream on, but it's
- 00:50:27still pretty spicy. Um, and then I did I
- 00:50:29started doing red light therapy before
- 00:50:32bed. Uh, this is the math. Uh, the
- 00:50:35approximation we have is the lights are
- 00:50:404 jewels cime squared per minute. So I
- 00:50:41increased my time to 8 minutes. I'm
- 00:50:44getting 32 jewels per centimeter squared
- 00:50:47of red and near exposure before bed. My
- 00:50:48first night of experiment, it increased
- 00:50:51my sleep duration by an hour. So a huge
- 00:50:54boost. We'll see over time what happens.
- 00:50:56And then I would say that I'm still
- 00:50:59recovering from travel. Like it I'm
- 00:51:00still trying to get my sleep
- 00:51:02architecture on point. I'm still trying
- 00:51:05to get all my body system back online. I
- 00:51:07think people when I talk about this,
- 00:51:08people are like, "Oh, you're such a
- 00:51:12snowflake." And they like they I think
- 00:51:16when you feel like [ __ ] you don't feel
- 00:51:18more shitty. Uh you you don't feel the
- 00:51:20shittyness as much. When you feel
- 00:51:24exceptional and you go to bad, man, it
- 00:51:27stings. So, I'm really like I'm just in
- 00:51:31this I'm in a recoil phase of just how
- 00:51:33bad and devastating international travel
- 00:51:36is for health. And there's we have a few
- 00:51:38clinics in China opening up and our
- 00:51:40China team is wanting us to be out in
- 00:51:44China this fall. And man, I
- 00:51:46I don't know how to do it. But um trying
- 00:51:48to figure out like what we do on the
- 00:51:49international front. We were also going
- 00:51:52to do a Middle East trip. Um so yeah,
- 00:51:52trying to figure that out.
- 00:51:54All right, you guys. Love hanging out
- 00:51:55with you.
- 00:51:57Good to see you guys. Okay, guys. Be
- 00:51:58well. Bye.
- 00:52:00This is the Brian Johnson podcast.
- 00:52:02Special thanks to my co-hosts, Kate
- 00:52:04Tollo and Dr. Mike Malin. For more
- 00:52:06science breakdowns and protocols,
- 00:52:07subscribe to my YouTube channel, follow
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