Neuroscientist: How To Escape The Rat Race | Robert Sapolsky
Summary
TLDRThe conversation in the video delves into the concepts of free will and determinism, particularly as they relate to human and primate behavior. The guest, a scientist, argues against the existence of free will, suggesting that life events are predetermined by a multitude of factors, such as biology and environmental influences. The guest reflects on personal experiences that led him to abandon religious beliefs and adopt atheism, citing inconsistencies he observed in religious teachings. The discussion also connects this concept with stress and social hierarchies, drawing parallels between human experiences and those of baboons, whom the speaker studies. Despite the common assumption that higher social ranks reduce stress, the speaker explains that individual personality and social context play more significant roles in determining stress levels. The conversation touches on the importance of social affiliations for lowering stress and extending life. Furthermore, the discussion highlights cultural influences on behavior and the prefrontal cortex's critical role in decision-making and self-control. Toward the end, reflections on justice, punishment, and innate biases offer insights into human nature and suggest ways society might function without belief in free will. The speaker's broader perspective calls for more understanding and humane practices based on scientific insights into determinism.
Takeaways
- 🚫 Free will is questioned, suggesting a deterministic view of life.
- 🧠 The prefrontal cortex plays a crucial role in decision-making.
- 🐒 Baboons are used to study social hierarchies and stress.
- 🤝 Social affiliation is important for reducing stress.
- 🔍 Personal experiences led the guest to atheism and disbelief in free will.
- 🌐 Cultural context influences stress responses significantly.
- 📚 Social rank is not the primary determinant of stress; personality and culture are.
- 🏛️ Justice and punishment are deeply connected to our desire to attribute blame.
- 🔄 Historical understanding of determinism has led to more humane treatment of people.
- 🔍 Awareness of innate biases can improve societal functions.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The speaker reflects on spending two decades researching the relationship between hierarchy and stress in primates, realizing rank isn't as crucial as meaningful social connections. This leads to personal revelations about the nonexistence of free will and God, influenced by childhood experiences and religious questioning.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
The speaker recounts childhood events leading to atheism, specifically questioning religious narratives like Exodus. At a young age, he concluded that there's no God or free will and kept these views private to avoid familial conflict, despite being surrounded by an understanding intellectual circle.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
His fascination with primates, sparked by museum visits, offered an escape from an unhappy life in Brooklyn. Despite challenges like depression linked to realizations about God and free will, this interest propelled him toward a career in studying primates and neuroscience, reflecting a long-standing focus from adolescence.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
The speaker pursued a path to study primates despite initial setbacks, like a preference for mountain gorillas over baboons. An impactful intro neuroscience class shifted his interests, leading to a dual focus on neurobiology and primatology, driven by a curiosity to understand human behavior deeply.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Baboons, with their complex social structures and stress behaviors, offered a perfect model for his research. Their environment allowed the study of stress effects analogous to humans, focusing on social affiliations and conflicts impacting health. This mirrored patterns found in human diseases stemming from lifestyle stress.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
The research finds baboons' stress isn't from predators but from social interactions, similar to human societal stress. Dominance isn't the sole factor; personality and social connections also influence stress levels. It underscores how psychological factors outweigh hierarchical status in determining health outcomes.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
The conversation pivots to the book 'Determined', exploring the concept of free will, arguing most human behavior isn't freely chosen but predetermined by past experiences and biological factors like brain development. This challenges traditional notions of responsibility and culpability.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
The speaker argues against the existence of traditional free will, citing examples where biological and social influences predetermine choices. He suggests our perceptions of self-discipline and choice are governed by brain structures, including the prefrontal cortex, developed from environmental and genetic factors.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
Exploring societal impacts, the notion that people can overcome adversity or squander advantages challenges the idea of free will. He emphasizes that self-control and decision-making are biological, traced back to early development stages influenced by factors beyond one's control, including socioeconomic status.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
Discussing human history and societal constructs, he questions the validity of free will in shaping life paths. He points out constructs like history and religion were created by humans, challenging their role in free will. The perspective suggests adopting beliefs beneficial for well-being rather than focusing on factual accuracy.
- 00:50:00 - 00:55:00
The argument extends to societal implications of accepting no free will, advocating for humane justice and acknowledgment of determinism in behavior. Examples show history's evolving compassion as science uncovers biological bases for behaviors once deemed deliberate, proposing a shift towards understanding over punishing.
- 00:55:00 - 01:00:00
The speaker highlights the societal tendency to seek punishment as a source of moral gratification, rooted in evolutionary terms as a mechanism for maintaining order. He criticizes this as flawed and suggests understanding these subconscious processes can lead to a more empathetic and just society.
- 01:00:00 - 01:05:00
Racism and discrimination are discussed as natural yet undesirable outcomes of tribal instincts, mitigated by understanding brain operations. Emphasizing cognitive flexibility, he believes societal categories can be reshaped to foster inclusivity, reducing biases by redefining group identities based on non-detrimental factors.
- 01:05:00 - 01:10:00
The book's philosophical stance is explored, asserting determinism can coexist with self-worth when understood contextually. It proposes moral and psychological growth through recognizing predetermined limitations and abilities, suggesting a revised view of self-control and success aligned with biological determinism.
- 01:10:00 - 01:15:00
Determinism is linked with societal constructs of success and the flaws in meritocracy, arguing for motivation systems that don't rely on traditional praise or punishment. The challenge lies in inspiring excellence without implying superiority, advocating for egalitarian principles grounded in biological understanding.
- 01:15:00 - 01:22:29
The discussion concludes with reflections on societal structures, emphasizing reevaluating notions of justice, success, and contribution without free will. The goal is a more equitable society by recognizing and dissolving ingrained prejudices, through a compassionate lens informed by scientific inquiry into human behavior.
Mind Map
Video Q&A
What is the main topic of this discussion?
The main topic is the concept of free will and determinism in human behavior, as well as insights from primatology.
Who is the subject of this conversation?
The subject is a scientist discussing his research on free will, stress, social hierarchies, and primatology.
What species does the speaker primarily study?
The speaker primarily studies baboons.
What is the speaker's stance on free will?
The speaker believes there's no free will, suggesting life is predetermined by various factors.
What subject influenced the speaker's scientific direction?
His early fascination with primates, particularly after visits to natural history museums.
How does the speaker suggest we perceive success?
As not merely wealth or prestige, but through contributions to society and understanding one's context.
What does the speaker say about social affiliation?
Social affiliation is crucial for reducing stress and improving lifespans.
What is emphasized about personality and stress in baboons?
Personality and social context, rather than social rank, better predict stress levels and health outcomes.
What phenomenon does the speaker connect to stress response in humans?
The speaker connects stress response to social hierarchies and affiliative behaviors observed in primates.
What metaphor does the speaker employ to describe human perception of free will?
The 'Turtles all the way down' metaphor to illustrate deterministic layers beneath perceived free will.
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- 00:00:00I woke up and said oh I get it there's
- 00:00:04no God and there's no free will I wasted
- 00:00:08my first 20 years out there showing that
- 00:00:11if you were high ranking you had lower
- 00:00:13levels of stress hormones lower blood
- 00:00:15pressure and it took me about 20 years
- 00:00:18out there to begin to realize your rank
- 00:00:21is nowhere near the most important thing
- 00:00:24it's what does your rank mean in your
- 00:00:27particular troop if you've got a choice
- 00:00:30and you want to have nice low stress
- 00:00:32hormone levels and live to ripe old age
- 00:00:35don't choose to be high ranking choose
- 00:00:36to have a whole lot of social
- 00:00:38affiliation where you actually can gain
- 00:00:41psychological benefit from it I spent 20
- 00:00:44years thinking while I was learning
- 00:00:46about was like go be a big successful
- 00:00:50capitalist baboon or something in the
- 00:00:52hierarchy but the good thing is it's not
- 00:00:55that hard to change your categories or
- 00:00:58to change it in somebody else
- 00:01:04so I always start my interviews talking
- 00:01:07about the early days and you know we're
- 00:01:11going to ultimately get into a
- 00:01:12conversation about how there's no such
- 00:01:15thing as free will that's that's the I
- 00:01:17think the foundation of your your latest
- 00:01:20work and um and how everything that
- 00:01:23we're experiencing in life right now
- 00:01:26individually and maybe even as a society
- 00:01:29is predetermined based on a million
- 00:01:32variables So to that end would you would
- 00:01:36you do us an uh the honor of of just
- 00:01:40telling us how your upbringing sort of
- 00:01:43predetermined where you ended up now in
- 00:01:46life I know that I know that you're from
- 00:01:48Brooklyn and I know that you were you
- 00:01:51grew up uh as an orthodox Jew but now
- 00:01:53you're an atheist and there were some
- 00:01:54things that happened 12 13 14 years old
- 00:01:57that were very pivotal in in that uh in
- 00:02:01that shift in your in your life so can
- 00:02:03you can you talk a little bit about
- 00:02:05that yeah it was you know the usual that
- 00:02:10kind of does in somebody's religiosity
- 00:02:13when they're like looking at the details
- 00:02:15and extending them and seeing that
- 00:02:17there's all sorts of
- 00:02:19irreconcilable uh sort of conflicts that
- 00:02:21come up in it
- 00:02:24um the the the key thing for me was
- 00:02:30you know more more people have lost
- 00:02:32their faith during reading about Exodus
- 00:02:35because what did the horses do why do
- 00:02:37they have to drown the horses why do
- 00:02:38they have to drown the first borns um
- 00:02:41and that usually is is the problem that
- 00:02:45comes up there um my version was Moses
- 00:02:49goes to Pharaoh after one of the plagues
- 00:02:52and Pharaoh says Uncle I give up okay
- 00:02:56you guys can go and then God hardens
- 00:02:59Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh changes his
- 00:03:02mind and say no you guys can't go so
- 00:03:05another plague on Egypt and Moses goes
- 00:03:08to him and Pharaoh says okay this time
- 00:03:11except God hardens his heart and wait a
- 00:03:14second he's like forget the horses and
- 00:03:18the babies like anyone there is getting
- 00:03:21punished because of an external thing
- 00:03:24controlling his behavior and then God
- 00:03:28judges and
- 00:03:30you know the usual sort of none of this
- 00:03:32makes any sense and um that and some
- 00:03:36more sort of personal aspects of all of
- 00:03:39it just kind of combined to one night at
- 00:03:43two in the morning I woke up and said oh
- 00:03:47I get it there's no
- 00:03:50God and there's no Free
- 00:03:53Will and the universe is this big empty
- 00:03:56and different place and that's kind of
- 00:04:00where I've been at ever
- 00:04:02since so you were only a teenager at the
- 00:04:06time um were you vocal about this new
- 00:04:10understanding of the world at that time
- 00:04:11and did you get pushed back from your
- 00:04:13parents or from your teachers or whoever
- 00:04:15you talked to about this or or is this
- 00:04:17something you kind of kept to yourself
- 00:04:19um mostly kept to myself um my parents
- 00:04:23pretty much went to their graves many
- 00:04:25years later not knowing I was an atheist
- 00:04:28because you
- 00:04:30know why bother they're they're all all
- 00:04:34that's good to do is upset them you know
- 00:04:37it's not that important
- 00:04:40um you know the rest of the world I was
- 00:04:43pretty soon surrounded by a sufficiently
- 00:04:46sort of educated left leaning cynical
- 00:04:49crowd so that none of that stuff seemed
- 00:04:52very surprising it certainly wiped out
- 00:04:55my capacity to listen to teaching from
- 00:04:57rabbis
- 00:05:00and your mom took you to see uh to the
- 00:05:03Natural his history museum I'm assuming
- 00:05:05to see some primates and that sort of
- 00:05:08lit up something inside of you H how did
- 00:05:12that how did you explain that with this
- 00:05:15this sort of
- 00:05:17atheism's belief how do you how did you
- 00:05:20explain that sense of excitement or
- 00:05:23inspiration well I sort of uh fixated on
- 00:05:27primates uh you know was my goto what do
- 00:05:31you want to do for your birthday take me
- 00:05:33to the Museum of Natural History that
- 00:05:35was just Heaven um I kind of imprinted
- 00:05:38on primates quite a few years earlier
- 00:05:41than that and I don't know what it was
- 00:05:47something about like these animals and
- 00:05:51these African diaramas like I just
- 00:05:54wanted to live inside there I did not
- 00:05:56want to live in my neighborhood in
- 00:05:57Brooklyn I was not having a good time
- 00:06:00um suddenly a place like that seemed
- 00:06:02like the most like wonderful place to
- 00:06:05escape to and maybe even be a non-human
- 00:06:09primate in the process uh so I happen to
- 00:06:12imprint on mountain gorillas and I I
- 00:06:15still remember the you know the diarama
- 00:06:18which is probably a0 years old now that
- 00:06:21sort of I looked at it and said ah I
- 00:06:24want to be there I want to be with them
- 00:06:28that that mountain bag that's Silverback
- 00:06:30mountain gorilla there that's that's the
- 00:06:33nearest thing I'm ever going to have to
- 00:06:35a grandfather there we go that's what I
- 00:06:38want to do you also wrote in your book
- 00:06:40your recent book about depression and
- 00:06:42how you first started experiencing that
- 00:06:44as a teenager so was there something
- 00:06:46that
- 00:06:47happened maybe in unassociated with any
- 00:06:51of this that yeah um I would say it had
- 00:06:54much to do with deciding there's no God
- 00:06:58there's no Free Will and 's no purpose
- 00:07:00to anything that sort of sent me in a
- 00:07:03downward spiral that I've been sort of
- 00:07:06mucking around and ever since that that
- 00:07:09seemed I don't know that
- 00:07:12that sort of struggling in a book where
- 00:07:15I'm hoping to convince people there's no
- 00:07:17free will whatsoever um that's the
- 00:07:20pretty dangerous outcome because if
- 00:07:22we're just biological machines the
- 00:07:25search for meaning is pretty damn
- 00:07:27challenging and all of that and and I
- 00:07:30did not particularly have the
- 00:07:33psychological means as a 15-year-old to
- 00:07:36kind of handle all that but yeah that
- 00:07:39that is readily where that takes one and
- 00:07:43just give us a little montage and I'm
- 00:07:45working my way up to your work but just
- 00:07:47a little Montage of of how your life
- 00:07:49sort of unfolded from there you
- 00:07:51obviously went and got educated you
- 00:07:53became an academic and Etc and you went
- 00:07:56to the to Kenya you know 21 but just
- 00:07:59give us a little idea of how all that
- 00:08:01happened or maybe the motivation behind
- 00:08:03all of that because it seems like you've
- 00:08:05been very focused since you were you
- 00:08:07know a teenager on this one thing and
- 00:08:10I'm just I'm just curious how that
- 00:08:12played out pretty focused I I uh when I
- 00:08:17was still like 15 I called up this
- 00:08:20professor at University of Chicago who
- 00:08:22was a major primatologist like at home
- 00:08:25saying hi I love your stuff if I be if
- 00:08:28I'm able to come to your uh University
- 00:08:31can I work with you um and they seemed
- 00:08:34very puzzled and ironically 20 years
- 00:08:37later I spent a summer working at their
- 00:08:39field site um I was writing fan letters
- 00:08:43to primatologists I wrote one to Dean FY
- 00:08:47who never answered but just imprinted on
- 00:08:51that I I managed to get my high school
- 00:08:54to agree to give me a language credit
- 00:08:56for a self-paced Swahili course because
- 00:08:59I knew I was heading for East Africa uh
- 00:09:02went to college to study instead of with
- 00:09:06the the the University of Chicago baboon
- 00:09:11Grand puas the Harvard Grand puah and
- 00:09:14worship at his feet um and I sort of
- 00:09:18brown noosed with him from the day I got
- 00:09:20there sufficiently so that four years
- 00:09:22later he said what the hell let's let's
- 00:09:25send you out to this field site he had a
- 00:09:27a grad student who's finishing his
- 00:09:29thesis there uh with the baboon so I
- 00:09:32kind of overlapped a bit and inherited
- 00:09:34The Troop um I would say the biggest
- 00:09:37complication that came up was freshman
- 00:09:40year somewhat arbitrarily I took an
- 00:09:43intro Neuroscience class and got blown
- 00:09:47away by that and
- 00:09:50suddenly uh it seemed equally
- 00:09:52interesting to try to understand
- 00:09:55behavior and volition and who we are and
- 00:09:57search for meaning blah blah all of that
- 00:10:00from the standpoint of brains than from
- 00:10:02the standpoint of evolutionary biology
- 00:10:05so ever since I've been kind of being a
- 00:10:11half-ass neurobiologist and half-ass
- 00:10:13primatologist just oscillating between
- 00:10:16the two um because it was kind of clear
- 00:10:20by then
- 00:10:22intellectually Neuroscience was more
- 00:10:24interesting to me uh getting to just go
- 00:10:27and like lived with wild primates for
- 00:10:31three months a year um there was no way
- 00:10:33I was giving that up so sort of a lot of
- 00:10:36my effort over the years has been trying
- 00:10:37to tie the two ends
- 00:10:41together hey so a lot of you all have
- 00:10:43been reaching out with your guest
- 00:10:44suggestions and look I appreciate it I
- 00:10:47do and to help make it easier for those
- 00:10:50guests to say yes to my invitation I
- 00:10:53need you to subscribe to this channel
- 00:10:56just hit the Subscribe button below and
- 00:10:58that's literally the best way to help me
- 00:11:01get you that guest on my podcast all
- 00:11:03right thank you so much for helping out
- 00:11:05and back to the show when it comes to
- 00:11:08primates can you talk a little bit
- 00:11:10about the difference in baboons chimps
- 00:11:13monkeys Apes like why did you choose
- 00:11:15baboons as opposed to any other primates
- 00:11:18yeah I kind of got stuck with them
- 00:11:21against my will I really wanted mountain
- 00:11:24gorillas um who with the most amazing
- 00:11:29animals on Earth and they're phenomenal
- 00:11:32um but I W up with baboons because
- 00:11:35they're vastly easier to study the
- 00:11:37department had a grad student doing
- 00:11:39babony uh the main person doing mountain
- 00:11:42gorillas was very psychiatrically
- 00:11:44unstable famously so uh Dan
- 00:11:48FY
- 00:11:49and uh everybody told me do not go
- 00:11:52anywhere near her and that site um
- 00:11:56that's wildly unstable um but but I was
- 00:11:59initially bummed out with a baboon
- 00:12:01mountain gorillas probably if I had like
- 00:12:04hung out with mountain gorillas for 30
- 00:12:06years I would become some sort of
- 00:12:07Buddhist monk by then they're
- 00:12:11incredibly some projecting on my part of
- 00:12:15introspective they have very low levels
- 00:12:17of aggression they're there're these
- 00:12:20ruminating wonderful and baboons are
- 00:12:23these like hysterical backstabbing sons
- 00:12:27of all they do is
- 00:12:29like have major conflict and betray
- 00:12:32their coalitional partners and bite
- 00:12:35somebody who did nothing because they're
- 00:12:37in a bad mood um and that actually
- 00:12:40turned out to be wonderful baboons have
- 00:12:44these big troops 50 to 100 animals uh
- 00:12:48males who all grew up elsewhere and
- 00:12:50showed up in adolescence to transfer in
- 00:12:53females who spend their whole life in
- 00:12:54the same troop so females these
- 00:12:56complicated lineages and who you're mom
- 00:12:59is and matriarchs and males just showing
- 00:13:03it up showing up and just punching it
- 00:13:05out savagely with each other uh
- 00:13:07thereafter and it wound up being perfect
- 00:13:11because sort of this was my bridge
- 00:13:13between the lab work and the field work
- 00:13:15studying stress um I W up being
- 00:13:18extremely interested in what stress does
- 00:13:21to the brain and what it has to do with
- 00:13:22brain aging and dementia and depression
- 00:13:26and things like that and that's kind of
- 00:13:27where my lab stuff went
- 00:13:29um and the field stuff went in the
- 00:13:32direction of trying to understand see
- 00:13:35you got these baboons they got different
- 00:13:37social ranks which is incredibly
- 00:13:39important they got different patterns of
- 00:13:41social affiliate they got different
- 00:13:43personalities all of that so given that
- 00:13:47who gets the stress related
- 00:13:49diseases and what does it do with how
- 00:13:51their bodies are working where I was
- 00:13:53able to Dart anesthetize them and do all
- 00:13:56sorts of clinical tests why were they
- 00:13:58perfect
- 00:13:59because like baboons living out in the
- 00:14:03seretti this is like the greatest place
- 00:14:05on Earth to be a baboon there's like
- 00:14:08tons of food you only have to forage
- 00:14:10about three hours a day to get your day
- 00:14:13calories the Predators don't mess with
- 00:14:15you much because you're in these big
- 00:14:16troops infants usually survive all of
- 00:14:19that and the key implication was if you
- 00:14:21only have to spend three hours a day
- 00:14:23getting your food you've got nine hours
- 00:14:25of free time every day to devote to
- 00:14:28being total jerks to each other and just
- 00:14:32generating psychological stress and
- 00:14:35social stress and for 99% of beasts out
- 00:14:39there what stress is about is somebody's
- 00:14:40trying to eat you or there's a famine or
- 00:14:42whatever bab wounds were just like
- 00:14:45westernized humans they've got the
- 00:14:48luxury of sitting around and they can
- 00:14:51generate spend all day long generating
- 00:14:53psychosocial nonsense with each other
- 00:14:56and overwhelmingly
- 00:14:59like if you're a baboon and you've got
- 00:15:01elevated levels of stress hormones it's
- 00:15:03not because a lion is chasing you it's
- 00:15:05because some other baboon has been
- 00:15:07working really hard to make you
- 00:15:09miserable they're totally schemy and
- 00:15:12backstabbing and awful and while that
- 00:15:16made them kind of hard to turn me into a
- 00:15:19Buddhist monk um it was perfect for
- 00:15:21studying a model of like westernized
- 00:15:24stress none of us die of famines anymore
- 00:15:28and the privileged West we all get these
- 00:15:31diseases of lifestyle of you know slow
- 00:15:35accumulation of damage reflecting stress
- 00:15:38and so do the baboons they get high
- 00:15:41blood pressure they get problems with
- 00:15:43ulcers their immune systems don't work
- 00:15:46as well as a function of who they are in
- 00:15:49the hierarchy and what their
- 00:15:50personalities are and what their
- 00:15:53patterns of social affiliation are and
- 00:15:55so they turned out to be great sort of
- 00:15:58model for us yeah I've read one your
- 00:16:01book um that they're very obviously
- 00:16:04social creatures can they have a casual
- 00:16:07exchange like you and I are having right
- 00:16:09now or or how do they communicate is it
- 00:16:11mostly through body language and
- 00:16:13gesturing and GRS um body language
- 00:16:17gesturing the thing that trumps
- 00:16:19everything in terms of baboon Paradise
- 00:16:23is when they're grooming each other uh
- 00:16:26social grooming is like not only gets
- 00:16:29rid of like parasites in the guy groom
- 00:16:31and you gets to eat it then gross um but
- 00:16:35more importantly grooming is like
- 00:16:38socially calming you know they get a a a
- 00:16:42close scare with a lion or something and
- 00:16:44then immediately afterward everyone
- 00:16:46spends 15 minutes grooming each other
- 00:16:48just to kind of calm down um and what
- 00:16:52winds up then being interesting with
- 00:16:54that is who's grooming who and who's
- 00:16:57getting groomed back how much and is it
- 00:16:59being reciprocated and that's where you
- 00:17:02see the baboon inequality coming through
- 00:17:05big time um there's all sorts of
- 00:17:07gestural stuff where somebody like rubs
- 00:17:10somebody else's nose in their low rank
- 00:17:12just because you can you force them into
- 00:17:15some sort of subordinate gesture thing
- 00:17:17while you're doing a dominant
- 00:17:19vocalization thing that you know they're
- 00:17:23going about their business all day a lot
- 00:17:25of it being social interaction social
- 00:17:28comp competition social support some
- 00:17:31nice altruistic stuff amid close
- 00:17:34relatives some miserably aggressive
- 00:17:36stuff between individuals who aren't
- 00:17:39related um yeah we you'll get is an
- 00:17:43example of this sort of the
- 00:17:44psychological stress of it you get a
- 00:17:46low-ranking female she's sitting there
- 00:17:49and she has to spend 30 seconds digging
- 00:17:51some root thing out of the ground to eat
- 00:17:54it and now she's digging another one and
- 00:17:57Along Comes the highest ranking female
- 00:17:59in the troop walks over to her glares at
- 00:18:02her and the low ranking one has to get
- 00:18:05up and move 10 feet away and our high
- 00:18:10ranking matriarch sits down there for a
- 00:18:12minute and the low ranking one now finds
- 00:18:15a new spot and starts digging in there
- 00:18:17and the high ranking one comes over and
- 00:18:20boots are out they will spend an hour
- 00:18:23just booting her around there's a
- 00:18:25hundred billion Blades of grass
- 00:18:28everywhere you look it's not resource
- 00:18:30acquisition it's just I think I'm going
- 00:18:33to hassle her and that's what's going on
- 00:18:38all day there when this is happening
- 00:18:41where are you are you sitting in a truck
- 00:18:43with some binoculars or yeah basically
- 00:18:46in a notebook doing that whole chain
- 00:18:49good all scene um you know this was a
- 00:18:52troop fortunately that was habituated so
- 00:18:54you could be uh you could hang out in
- 00:18:58the middle of them without them being
- 00:19:00disturbed you you were some sort of
- 00:19:03large mobile Boulder or something uh it
- 00:19:07was even possible to do some stuff on
- 00:19:09foot with them which you didn't do a ton
- 00:19:11of just because of uh danger of other
- 00:19:14animals and such but yeah they'd just be
- 00:19:17going about this I mean as a great
- 00:19:20example of like the misery in their
- 00:19:22society the majority of baboon
- 00:19:25aggression is displaced aggression
- 00:19:29which is to say you are number three you
- 00:19:32just got in your head to challenge
- 00:19:34number two he is just trashed you and
- 00:19:37you spin around and you attack number
- 00:19:40five who spins around and chases number
- 00:19:4310 who spins around and bites a female
- 00:19:47who spins around and knocks somebody
- 00:19:49else's infant out of a tree all in 15
- 00:19:52seconds just rolling downhill like that
- 00:19:56and what that means is like huge
- 00:19:59elements of psychological stress are
- 00:20:02lack of control and lack of
- 00:20:05predictability and you're sitting there
- 00:20:07minding your own business and somebody
- 00:20:09else is having a bad day and without any
- 00:20:12predictability and warning and without
- 00:20:14any control you get your rear end
- 00:20:17slashed um so it's like it's an amazing
- 00:20:21landscape for just grinding
- 00:20:24psychological stress because they got
- 00:20:28nothing else to do because their
- 00:20:29stomachs are full and like they can't go
- 00:20:32predate something because they're not
- 00:20:33very good at that and no one will mate
- 00:20:36with them so why don't I go just hassle
- 00:20:38someone because I
- 00:20:40can right and you went to Harvard right
- 00:20:43so I I I I read I read a lot as a
- 00:20:45meditation person I've read a lot about
- 00:20:47Herbert Benson's work Dr Benson's work
- 00:20:50and I know he studied uh he was one of I
- 00:20:52don't know if he was Walter Canon's
- 00:20:54Protege or he studied in the lab the
- 00:20:56Canon lab but apparently Walt Dr Walter
- 00:21:00Canon was the guy who coin fight flight
- 00:21:02reaction and he studied I'm not sure
- 00:21:05which primates he studied but from what
- 00:21:07I could tell he studied some primates in
- 00:21:09a laboratory setting yeah and exposed
- 00:21:13them to Electric shocks or something
- 00:21:15like that so what my question is your
- 00:21:18research obviously is in the field and
- 00:21:20you're studying primates in their
- 00:21:22natural habitat how what what what
- 00:21:25Revelations did your work um
- 00:21:30due to further Dr Canon's initial work
- 00:21:33on the fight flight reaction or the
- 00:21:35stress response yeah he's one of the two
- 00:21:38gods of stress physiology the other was
- 00:21:41this guy Han cier um there's sort of two
- 00:21:44branches to the stress response there's
- 00:21:46the sympathetic nervous system and that
- 00:21:48was Canon's deal and then there's these
- 00:21:51glucorticoid hormones like cortisol
- 00:21:54hydrocortisone um and that was so's
- 00:21:57contribution and ever since the canites
- 00:22:00and the cellulites have been fighting
- 00:22:02over which branch is more important um
- 00:22:06and I'm definitely of the uh the gluc
- 00:22:08corticoid branch but I thought initially
- 00:22:12what I was going to go out and show was
- 00:22:15like if you get a choice in the matter
- 00:22:17you want to be a high ranking baboon
- 00:22:20because you got all the psychological
- 00:22:22advantages you've got control you got
- 00:22:24predictability you got Outlets if you're
- 00:22:26having a crummy day you can always get
- 00:22:28somebody to groom you and you don't have
- 00:22:30to groom them back because you're high
- 00:22:32ranking that sort of thing all sorts of
- 00:22:35psychological advantages there and I
- 00:22:39wasted my first 20 years out there
- 00:22:42showing that um showing if you were high
- 00:22:45ranking you had lower levels of stress
- 00:22:47hormones lower blood pressure your
- 00:22:49reproductive endocrine system worked
- 00:22:52better all sort so it seemed like okay
- 00:22:55what's the big lesson go out and compete
- 00:22:58and winwin win and be dominant and it
- 00:23:00took me about 20 years out there to
- 00:23:03begin to realize your rank is nowhere
- 00:23:05near the most important thing it's what
- 00:23:09does your rank mean in your particular
- 00:23:13troop different troops have different
- 00:23:15cultures and that's not like a oh my God
- 00:23:19Disney Bambi sort of termed it's that's
- 00:23:21like a legitimate term these days terms
- 00:23:24of how readily do you get dumped on if
- 00:23:26you're low ranking some troops it
- 00:23:29happens all the time and others it never
- 00:23:32so what's your rank what does it mean in
- 00:23:34terms of what kind of culture is it in
- 00:23:36your Tru how stable is the hierarchy
- 00:23:39what's your personality do you see
- 00:23:42threat
- 00:23:44everywhere are you type a and in a very
- 00:23:47literal way or are you able to tell the
- 00:23:49difference between a threatening
- 00:23:51circumstance and a neutral one and it
- 00:23:53turns out more of the physiology the
- 00:23:56stress physiology is explained by that
- 00:23:59one variable than your dominance rank
- 00:24:02like if you're sitting there and your
- 00:24:04worst rival on the whole planet shows up
- 00:24:07and takes a nap 50 yards away if that
- 00:24:11makes you crazed and agitated and you
- 00:24:14stop doing whatever it is you were doing
- 00:24:16and you're all anxious
- 00:24:19and you're GNA have like two three times
- 00:24:22the cortisol levels in your bloodstream
- 00:24:24as somebody of the same rank who can sit
- 00:24:26there and say the guys snapping this is
- 00:24:29not a big deal this is I if you see
- 00:24:33threat everywhere you've got a much more
- 00:24:35active stress response independent of
- 00:24:38your rank and it was a bigger predictor
- 00:24:40a bigger variable of that um could you
- 00:24:43get some control and social
- 00:24:46circumstances that was a predictor as
- 00:24:48well did you have social affiliation how
- 00:24:51often was there somebody you could go
- 00:24:53like lean next to and it turned out that
- 00:24:56all of that stuff
- 00:24:59personality cultural context of the
- 00:25:02group uh situational stuff is social
- 00:25:06affiliation all of those were more
- 00:25:08powerful predictors than rank itself
- 00:25:11like if you've got a choice and you want
- 00:25:13to have nice low stress hormone levels
- 00:25:15and like live to ripe old age if you're
- 00:25:17some like male
- 00:25:19baboon don't choose to be high ranking
- 00:25:22choose to have a whole lot of social
- 00:25:24affiliation and of the type where where
- 00:25:28you actually can B gain psychological
- 00:25:31benefit from it like you're agitated
- 00:25:35because somebody just did something mean
- 00:25:36to you and if your most likely response
- 00:25:40is you go displace aggression onto
- 00:25:42somebody else that's not a great Outlet
- 00:25:45if it's to go sit down next to somebody
- 00:25:47you get along with and maybe you're even
- 00:25:50in physical contact and maybe even one
- 00:25:52of you Grooms the other that's the far
- 00:25:54more effective way of doing it and it's
- 00:25:56showed in their bodies so so I spent 20
- 00:26:00years thinking all I was learning about
- 00:26:01was like go be a big successful
- 00:26:05capitalist baboon or something in the
- 00:26:08hierarchy and like it social affiliation
- 00:26:13and cultural context had so much more to
- 00:26:15do with it well I would say also you
- 00:26:17were learning about the fact that uh
- 00:26:19Free Will is not as simple as we we like
- 00:26:23to think it is and and you know you put
- 00:26:26a lot of emphasis on the prefrontal
- 00:26:28cortex which as anyone who studied
- 00:26:32stress knows that if you don't have
- 00:26:33access to your prefrontal cortex then
- 00:26:35everything reroutes to your Amala which
- 00:26:38gives you basically two options to run
- 00:26:40away or to fight and when we look
- 00:26:43at how outcomes happen we can usually
- 00:26:47trace it back this is the from what I
- 00:26:49understand this is the essence of your
- 00:26:50work we could trace it back to access to
- 00:26:53that part of the brain so that plays a
- 00:26:55pivotal role in this idea of of of uh
- 00:26:58Free Will right so you've written you've
- 00:27:00written like eight best-selling books
- 00:27:02and this your most recent one is called
- 00:27:04determined and I guess it's it's good to
- 00:27:07Pivot to that to to that um work now
- 00:27:10determine a science of life without Free
- 00:27:14Will which is very triggering for a lot
- 00:27:17of people this idea that there's no such
- 00:27:19thing as uh as free will so I guess we
- 00:27:23can start with just talking about that
- 00:27:25like what do you mean by Free Will and
- 00:27:27what do you mean by there's no such
- 00:27:29thing as free
- 00:27:30will I think where people get into
- 00:27:33trouble is two Realms where they decide
- 00:27:36they're seeing free will because it just
- 00:27:39feels like it and where they're not and
- 00:27:42where that gets you into trouble the
- 00:27:45first one is when you actually make a
- 00:27:47choice you form an intent and you choose
- 00:27:50something you're choosing between Coke
- 00:27:53and Pepsi you're choosing between
- 00:27:55invading this neighbor or that neighbor
- 00:27:58neighbor whatever it is you're make and
- 00:28:00you form an intent you're consciously
- 00:28:03aware that you're making this decision
- 00:28:06um you got a pretty good sense what the
- 00:28:08consequences are going to be most
- 00:28:09importantly you know nobody's holding a
- 00:28:11gun to your head you've got Alternatives
- 00:28:14available to you and for most people and
- 00:28:17the criminal justice system that's
- 00:28:20necessary and sufficient to say that's
- 00:28:22it there's free will there's
- 00:28:24responsibility there's culpability which
- 00:28:27gives me app plexy at that point because
- 00:28:30that's like a tenth of 1% of what you
- 00:28:32need to be paying attention to because
- 00:28:36you look at somebody who just had this
- 00:28:38intent and They carried it out and they
- 00:28:40knew it was going to have this effect
- 00:28:41and they knew they could have done
- 00:28:43otherwise and you're learning zero
- 00:28:47unless you ask the question how did they
- 00:28:49turn out to be the sort of person who
- 00:28:52would form that intent at that moment
- 00:28:55and that's 99.9%
- 00:28:58of what goes on and we have this this
- 00:29:02intuitive trap of it feeling so tangible
- 00:29:07when you've just chosen between this or
- 00:29:10that when you've decided what you want
- 00:29:12to do and you choosing you that most of
- 00:29:15the time we're not thinking how did I
- 00:29:17turn out to be somebody who would have
- 00:29:20that desire that intent at that point
- 00:29:22and that's where all the free will
- 00:29:24disappears the other domain which is the
- 00:29:28the quick sound for everyone is like you
- 00:29:31look at someone who's had some lousy
- 00:29:35luck and adversity and all of that and
- 00:29:38somehow they reinvent themselves they
- 00:29:41pull themselves up by their bootstraps
- 00:29:43they show incredible self you know these
- 00:29:46these heartwarming stories or you look
- 00:29:48at somebody who has had every possible
- 00:29:50advantage and they just piss it away
- 00:29:53with self-indulgence and there's this
- 00:29:57huge huge huge Temptation there to think
- 00:30:00that when it comes to self-discipline
- 00:30:03and backbone and gumption and all of
- 00:30:05that that's not made of biology that's
- 00:30:08magic that's free will like biology may
- 00:30:11have something to do with you know
- 00:30:14whether you're good at playing LaCrosse
- 00:30:18or whatever weird sports are happening
- 00:30:21right now in France you know but that's
- 00:30:24that tells you nothing about who's going
- 00:30:26to push through the pain and do it
- 00:30:28and that's where we get back to the
- 00:30:30prefrontal
- 00:30:31cortex what you the attributes you wound
- 00:30:35up with are purely biological
- 00:30:38interaction with environment and what
- 00:30:40you do with them purely
- 00:30:43biological self-control self-discipline
- 00:30:46all of that is made out of the same
- 00:30:48biology yuck as is anything else in your
- 00:30:52brain and it's all coming out of the
- 00:30:54prefrontal cortex like every time life
- 00:30:57has you in a position where like you got
- 00:31:00to make a choice and there's a smarter
- 00:31:03one but the other one's more tempting
- 00:31:05the choice that you wind up making is
- 00:31:07entirely a function of how do you wind
- 00:31:10up getting to that point how do you wind
- 00:31:13up with a prefrontal cortex that would
- 00:31:16have the power or not that would have
- 00:31:18the values or not as to what counts as
- 00:31:22self-discipline all of that and what we
- 00:31:24know is that's the realm in which for a
- 00:31:27billion different reasons you had no
- 00:31:29control over what life handed you in
- 00:31:32that regard it's starting with being a
- 00:31:35fetus like a mother's socioeconomic
- 00:31:39status is already influencing the rate
- 00:31:41of cortical development in her fetus
- 00:31:44like o use some free will I'm G to pick
- 00:31:47to be in the womb of somebody of high
- 00:31:49socioeconomic status so I get born with
- 00:31:52already the starts of a great
- 00:31:54prefrontal at the moment of birth all of
- 00:31:57this
- 00:31:58you had no control over the
- 00:32:00circumstances that produced the you who
- 00:32:03you are at this moment was already in
- 00:32:06effect and where that plays out most
- 00:32:09dramatically is at those junctures and
- 00:32:13where you got to make a choice and if
- 00:32:16you do the
- 00:32:18impulsive disinhibited one it's going to
- 00:32:21seem wonderful for three seconds and you
- 00:32:23may regret it for the rest of your life
- 00:32:25just at every juncture where we have
- 00:32:29that moment what we're doing is saying
- 00:32:32what kind of prefrontal Cortex did our
- 00:32:35cumulative bad luck and good luck
- 00:32:38starting with the time that we were a
- 00:32:39single fertilized egg have to do with
- 00:32:43like what I'm dealing with here in that
- 00:32:45moment when I was eight or nine years
- 00:32:47old um the experience that sort of made
- 00:32:51me start questioning these kinds of
- 00:32:53things as well is I was on a we were on
- 00:32:56a family vacation
- 00:32:58driving from Alabama where I'm from to
- 00:33:00Chicago and we took this detour in
- 00:33:02Kentucky to go see uh there were these
- 00:33:04Billboards saying come and see Abraham
- 00:33:06Lincoln's log his birthplace and it
- 00:33:09showed a picture of his log cabin on the
- 00:33:12billboard and it was like 10 miles in
- 00:33:14the opposite direction so we took a
- 00:33:17family vote we decided to go and see
- 00:33:20Abraham Lincoln's Birthplace because why
- 00:33:22not and we get to this parking lot and
- 00:33:24there's a warehouse in the middle of the
- 00:33:25parking lot looks like a Lowe's building
- 00:33:27or Home Depot or something and we walk
- 00:33:30in and there's a log cabin that's roped
- 00:33:34it's cording off in the middle of the
- 00:33:36warehouse and it's got all these little
- 00:33:38artifacts inside of it and I started
- 00:33:41asking questions you know so how did you
- 00:33:43all get it did you just buil this
- 00:33:45structure around where the lock cabin
- 00:33:48was or they go no we actually we
- 00:33:49relocated it to the structure I said oh
- 00:33:52that's interesting um so all of these
- 00:33:55are this whole thing is from you found
- 00:33:57it in the woods well actually no it came
- 00:34:00from the same place that his cabin would
- 00:34:02have existed and anyway long story short
- 00:34:06none of it was the original anything and
- 00:34:10that's when you noticed it was made out
- 00:34:11of
- 00:34:14Legos well I I noticed that everything
- 00:34:16was all these stories that we
- 00:34:17tell ourselves about anything you know
- 00:34:20if you look in quotes history and you
- 00:34:23ask enough questions and you dig deeply
- 00:34:25enough you'll start to see that hey
- 00:34:26somebody just made this up one day
- 00:34:28somebody just made up the calendar
- 00:34:30somebody just made up this religion
- 00:34:32somebody just made up this this belief
- 00:34:35system marriage the marriage construct
- 00:34:37you know so I started asking those kinds
- 00:34:41of questions at that age and I've I my
- 00:34:45my personal philosophy on this is that
- 00:34:47people you just have to choose something
- 00:34:49that serves you and so this idea of
- 00:34:52choosing to believe that there is Free
- 00:34:54Will doesn't make it any more real than
- 00:34:58choosing to believe that there's not
- 00:35:00free will but I I find it that as a
- 00:35:03scientific mind you know things
- 00:35:05obviously have to make sense and so
- 00:35:08you've you've kind of drawn this
- 00:35:09conclusion or this connection between
- 00:35:11this idea between of no free will to you
- 00:35:15know having access to this part of your
- 00:35:17brain
- 00:35:18and I don't think people appreciate how
- 00:35:21much not having access to that part of
- 00:35:23the brain actually leads to certain
- 00:35:26outcomes in their life that are not very
- 00:35:28desirable exact and how much of what
- 00:35:32you're going to do in that moment is a
- 00:35:34function of what was happening to that a
- 00:35:37minute ago and an hour ago and a year
- 00:35:40ago and back when you were an adolescent
- 00:35:42and that whole deal there because you
- 00:35:46know you have like every single part of
- 00:35:49your body you have a completely unique
- 00:35:52prefrontal
- 00:35:53cortex um and it happened it happened by
- 00:35:57by good luck and bad luck which don't
- 00:36:00balance each other out each one tends to
- 00:36:02amplify the other um each one tends to
- 00:36:05amplify itself um and yeah that's
- 00:36:09exactly it in that moment um I'm
- 00:36:11impressed you had like a five it
- 00:36:13reminded me of the Fable of the turtles
- 00:36:15that you open your book with I think
- 00:36:17that'd be genius if you could share that
- 00:36:18Fable of the turtles because I think
- 00:36:20that perfectly illustrates the essence
- 00:36:22of the
- 00:36:24book I start the book with like this par
- 00:36:27that I thought was totally great in
- 00:36:29college um and it's so ingrained in me
- 00:36:34almost certainly I'm you saying it word
- 00:36:36for word from how we used to say it so
- 00:36:39it seems that the philosopher it seems
- 00:36:42that William James was giving a lecture
- 00:36:44about the nature of the universe and
- 00:36:47afterward an old woman comes up and says
- 00:36:49Professor James you had it all wrong the
- 00:36:52world is actually on the back of a
- 00:36:54gigantic
- 00:36:56turtle and to which he said oh well
- 00:37:00Madam in that case where does that
- 00:37:01Turtle stand and she said on another
- 00:37:04turtle and he said oh but Madam where
- 00:37:06does that Turtle stand and she said it's
- 00:37:09no use Professor James it's Turtles all
- 00:37:11the way
- 00:37:12down which you know as a starting point
- 00:37:15in the book is that's totally like
- 00:37:18ludicrous ridiculous all of that it's
- 00:37:21much more ludicrous and ridiculous to
- 00:37:24decide that somewhere down there there's
- 00:37:26a turtle floating in the air and that
- 00:37:29floating in the air is that you can do
- 00:37:33something free of your history you could
- 00:37:37be an uncaused
- 00:37:40cause vague definitions of you could be
- 00:37:42showing Free Will whatever it is you're
- 00:37:46doing it occurred because it's Turtles
- 00:37:49all the way down there is the idea
- 00:37:52behind making this case for no such
- 00:37:55thing as free will is it to lead to an
- 00:37:57egalitarian society or what is what is
- 00:38:00the
- 00:38:01idea yeah in a sense I mean after
- 00:38:05after people well I should point out
- 00:38:08that I'm I have about as extreme of a
- 00:38:10stance on this as you'll get anybody in
- 00:38:13sort of the the brain Sciences type
- 00:38:16stuff there there's other people who are
- 00:38:18at the same point but there's a whole
- 00:38:20lot of people who would kind of say well
- 00:38:23you know there's maybe some
- 00:38:24circumstances where there's exceptions
- 00:38:27I've staked out an extreme stance here
- 00:38:30and saying that there's none whatsoever
- 00:38:33um
- 00:38:34so what do you do with that um what do
- 00:38:38you do with that and like what's the
- 00:38:40world supposed to look like if oh my God
- 00:38:42people actually started believing that
- 00:38:45and half the book the second half of the
- 00:38:47book is that and that was the much
- 00:38:49harder half for me to write of working
- 00:38:52through like what's how are we supposed
- 00:38:55to function what should Society look
- 00:38:58like and what I have to spend a lot of
- 00:39:00time there is the things that are not
- 00:39:02going to happen as disasters everyone
- 00:39:05immediately say oh my God you're just
- 00:39:07gonna have murderers running around on
- 00:39:09the streets obviously not there's a way
- 00:39:12to protect Society from dangerous people
- 00:39:15without telling the dangerous people
- 00:39:17they have rotten Souls it's a quarantine
- 00:39:20model and it's straight out of Public
- 00:39:22Health sort of stuff oh my God okay that
- 00:39:25but then everybody else is to run them
- 00:39:27up because you can't be held responsible
- 00:39:29for anything everyone will just become
- 00:39:31antisocial and there's a whole
- 00:39:33literature of research on that showing
- 00:39:36that in effect for the first five
- 00:39:37minutes you're going to run a muck and
- 00:39:40once you've had the chance to think
- 00:39:42about it and especially grow up with
- 00:39:45these ideas you will have just as
- 00:39:47ethical of standards as somebody who
- 00:39:49believes we should be held responsible
- 00:39:52for our every action um in the exact
- 00:39:55same way that sort of par
- 00:39:58people who are atheists people say oh my
- 00:40:01God they're going to run them up and be
- 00:40:03so immoral because they don't think
- 00:40:05there's anyone who can hold them
- 00:40:07responsible and that's what people do
- 00:40:09for the first five seconds or the first
- 00:40:11five years and them deciding there is no
- 00:40:13God but you give them enough time and
- 00:40:15they are exactly as ethical in their
- 00:40:18behavior as people who are highly highly
- 00:40:21religious you've just found your meaning
- 00:40:24through a different route there okay so
- 00:40:26that's not going to be a problem then
- 00:40:28people freak out and they saywell if
- 00:40:31everything's determined nothing can ever
- 00:40:34change don't bother and that's like a
- 00:40:38critical point that like of course we
- 00:40:40change massive change occurs but we are
- 00:40:44not choosing to exercise free will when
- 00:40:48we suddenly form a new opinion we have
- 00:40:51been changed by circumstance and we've
- 00:40:53been changed by it as a function of who
- 00:40:56we turned out to be at the moment that
- 00:40:58we experience that
- 00:41:00circumstance so with all of those like
- 00:41:04things in place of things not to panic
- 00:41:07about and change can actually happen but
- 00:41:09it works very differently than people
- 00:41:11think it does if you believe in free
- 00:41:13will we're not going to run a muck we
- 00:41:14don't have murderers running around
- 00:41:16everywhere we can get through that I
- 00:41:19think what you're left with is exactly
- 00:41:21what you were alluding to which is if
- 00:41:24you believe in Free Will it means you're
- 00:41:28okay with some people being treated way
- 00:41:31better than the average human for
- 00:41:33reasons they had nothing to do with and
- 00:41:36other people being treated way
- 00:41:38worse and if you really go for this
- 00:41:42there's no free will stuff blame and
- 00:41:46Punishment are intellectually and
- 00:41:48ethically
- 00:41:50gibberish praise and reward are as well
- 00:41:53feeling as if you have earned anything
- 00:41:55that anyone has earned anything that you
- 00:41:57were entitled to anything that there's
- 00:42:00such a thing as Justice being carried at
- 00:42:03that there's such a thing as Justice
- 00:42:05none of that makes any sense at all and
- 00:42:08you got to navigate stuff from there
- 00:42:10which is where the oh my God how are we
- 00:42:12supposed to function with
- 00:42:14that and what seems clear is like you
- 00:42:19know I I haven't believed in this Free
- 00:42:21Will stuff since I was a kid and most of
- 00:42:24the time my first reflex is to op
- 00:42:27operate like an
- 00:42:28entitled like westernized American what
- 00:42:34you know I think this way and I can't
- 00:42:35function this way most of the time it
- 00:42:37takes a whole lot of work to say wait a
- 00:42:41second think about like what it is that
- 00:42:44you had no control over that got you
- 00:42:47into this like wonderfully advantageous
- 00:42:50Place think about that person you were
- 00:42:51just having a judgment about all of that
- 00:42:54and you know what we're left with
- 00:42:57is it's going to be Mighty hard for
- 00:42:59everyone to decide there's no free will
- 00:43:01tomorrow and thus Society just takes off
- 00:43:04from there with no more prisons and no
- 00:43:06more meritocracy and no more CEOs with
- 00:43:09Corner offices and no
- 00:43:11more yeah it's going to be incredibly
- 00:43:14hard um but what I try to
- 00:43:18hammer through in that latter part of
- 00:43:20the book is over and over
- 00:43:24historically we have identified Realms
- 00:43:26where turn turns out we don't have free
- 00:43:28will people do stuff that they had no
- 00:43:31control over and each time we figure
- 00:43:34that out and come up with what would be
- 00:43:36a biological explanation not only
- 00:43:38doesn't Society fall apart the world
- 00:43:40becomes more Humane we figured out that
- 00:43:44old ladies with no teeth don't have the
- 00:43:47power to control the weather by casting
- 00:43:49witch crafter whatever and so it's not
- 00:43:53the 15th century anymore and burning
- 00:43:55people at the stakes when there's sudden
- 00:43:57a storm in the middle of July good you
- 00:44:00know we figured out witches don't exist
- 00:44:03they don't have the power to control the
- 00:44:05weather and it's a much better world
- 00:44:07that we don't burn old ladies at the
- 00:44:09stake anymore we figured out at some
- 00:44:11point that having an epileptic seizure
- 00:44:14is not a sign that you were possessed by
- 00:44:16Satan and that's good we stopped you
- 00:44:21know stop burning epileptics at the
- 00:44:24stake as well we figured out at some
- 00:44:26point mothers don't cause schizophrenia
- 00:44:29in their children it's not their fault
- 00:44:32because they unconsciously hate their
- 00:44:34child it's a neurogenetic disorder and
- 00:44:37as soon as that was sorted out hundreds
- 00:44:39of thousands of mothers of people with
- 00:44:43schizophrenia were absolved from you had
- 00:44:46no control it had nothing to do with it
- 00:44:49you it's not your fault and then we
- 00:44:52figured out you know chronologically in
- 00:44:55my own lifetime after I was like a
- 00:44:58school kid some decades later like some
- 00:45:01kids don't learn how to read very well
- 00:45:04not because they're lazy or stupid or
- 00:45:07unmotivated but they got this screwy
- 00:45:09neurological thing called dyslexia like
- 00:45:12you can actually look in a microscope of
- 00:45:15like somebody's cortex and you will see
- 00:45:17the abnormal oh they're not lazy they're
- 00:45:21they got screwed in another way some
- 00:45:23people are screwed with it this is
- 00:45:27this is the bad luck that they got
- 00:45:29handed and not only like was that a
- 00:45:33great
- 00:45:34realization because you could get some
- 00:45:36insights now into how to teach somebody
- 00:45:38how to read more effectively if they
- 00:45:40have a learning difference and you know
- 00:45:42efficacy all of that but mainly you're
- 00:45:45not raising people thinking that they're
- 00:45:47stupid unmotivated like that you get all
- 00:45:50these 40y olds who say yeah I I got a
- 00:45:53dyslexia diagnosis last year God if I
- 00:45:56could only have gotten that when I was
- 00:45:59in in fifth grade I've spent my whole
- 00:46:03life hating myself thinking that I'm
- 00:46:05just lazy and not smart if only I could
- 00:46:08have found out then and every time we
- 00:46:10figure out one of those we're I don't
- 00:46:11know 20 years into figuring out that
- 00:46:14people are not exercising free will when
- 00:46:17they decide they fall in love with
- 00:46:20somebody of their sex or the opposite
- 00:46:22sex people are not exercising free will
- 00:46:25when they decide they've always felt
- 00:46:27like they're a different sex than their
- 00:46:29body says they are like okay that all
- 00:46:32we're doing with each one of these yeah
- 00:46:34we're not going to figure out tomorrow
- 00:46:36how to completely get rid of a sense of
- 00:46:37free will because it'll be like sheer
- 00:46:40utter chaos but we're doing this step by
- 00:46:43step and each time the world becomes
- 00:46:45more Humane and it's like a much better
- 00:46:50world not only is the world not falling
- 00:46:52apart it's much better that like
- 00:46:54Southern Baptists don't try to do
- 00:46:57conversion therapy on their like gay
- 00:47:00teenage Sons anymore or like you know
- 00:47:04beat Satan out of them for that you know
- 00:47:06in all these cases it becomes better so
- 00:47:09we got to just keep pushing and doing
- 00:47:11more and more of that because all sorts
- 00:47:14of Realms where it seems intuitively
- 00:47:16obvious right now to us that somebody
- 00:47:19chose to do they could have done
- 00:47:22otherwise people in the future are going
- 00:47:24to look back on that and say exactly
- 00:47:26here's the pathways by which that person
- 00:47:28turned out to be who they were and why
- 00:47:31they had no control over what they did
- 00:47:32at that
- 00:47:34point and oh what barbarians people were
- 00:47:38back in the early 21st
- 00:47:40century imprisoning some people and
- 00:47:43punishing them based on not
- 00:47:45understanding this or telling other
- 00:47:47people that they are better more worthy
- 00:47:50humans because they turn out to be smart
- 00:47:53at something and thus can do a
- 00:47:55successful hostile takeover of
- 00:47:57somebody's Corporation or you know
- 00:48:00they'll look back on us with that same
- 00:48:03sort of view so we got to just keep
- 00:48:05pushing against it and keep assuming
- 00:48:07anytime you think you know why somebody
- 00:48:11has just done something anytime you
- 00:48:13think you understand what the
- 00:48:15attribution is you're almost certainly
- 00:48:17wrong and you're almost certainly
- 00:48:19looking at it way too Blinder because
- 00:48:23you got to think about stuff way way
- 00:48:27unexpected and below the surface and
- 00:48:30subliminal and ancient and nuanced and
- 00:48:34all of that and you probably don't have
- 00:48:36a clue the things that went into making
- 00:48:39them who they are at that moment and why
- 00:48:41they did what they did just playing
- 00:48:43Devil's Advocate I I actually personally
- 00:48:45agree with everything you're saying for
- 00:48:47the most part but let's say you have a
- 00:48:49you have a spiritualist someone who
- 00:48:51believes in Karma and Dharma and and
- 00:48:53life purposes and sacred spiritual
- 00:48:55contracts and these kinds of things what
- 00:48:57if they said the same about you that
- 00:48:59you're looking at this idea of life from
- 00:49:01very narrow bandwidth and that you
- 00:49:04probably have some blind spots and
- 00:49:05things you're not seeing I'm sure you've
- 00:49:07encountered this because you've been
- 00:49:08talking about this forever you've been
- 00:49:09written about it in all
- 00:49:11your yes yes just just put a dime in my
- 00:49:16right ear and you'll get a 30 second
- 00:49:18lecture about this once the the gears
- 00:49:21start
- 00:49:22moving yeah you know when how do you
- 00:49:25defend yourself against your own
- 00:49:26argument
- 00:49:27of
- 00:49:29well I don't have to invoke a notion of
- 00:49:32free will to try to explain how I wound
- 00:49:35up the way I am I can see where a lot of
- 00:49:39the gears and levers were I can see some
- 00:49:42of it having to do with my brain
- 00:49:44something having to do with my
- 00:49:45upbringing some with the culture some
- 00:49:48with my genes you know I can you know
- 00:49:51there's all sorts of pieces I don't
- 00:49:52understand but I can kind of see how it
- 00:49:55turned out this way
- 00:49:57and how I had nothing to do with it and
- 00:50:00am not particularly worthy of praise and
- 00:50:03am not particularly worthy of blame for
- 00:50:05the things I'm crappy about um yeah I
- 00:50:09could turn that on myself and it's all
- 00:50:11within you know a very mechanistic
- 00:50:16framework which as you say puts me a
- 00:50:18gazillion light years away from a sort
- 00:50:20of spiritual approach to thinking about
- 00:50:23this stuff um
- 00:50:27you know I turn into like you know dead
- 00:50:30white male scientist when saying show me
- 00:50:33the nuts and bolts of how a spiritual
- 00:50:36phenomenon works in your head and you
- 00:50:39know there's all sorts of Neuroscience
- 00:50:41we know now that we're all cocky and
- 00:50:42arrogant about that we couldn't begin to
- 00:50:44think about 50 years ago so maybe this
- 00:50:47will get explained also in near-death
- 00:50:49experiences there will be a neurobiology
- 00:50:52of all you know that may come but at
- 00:50:55least for me it's all in the context
- 00:50:57that we're these biological machines
- 00:51:01we're really complicated ones we're
- 00:51:03really vulnerable ones we're really
- 00:51:05sensitive to environment that we
- 00:51:07interact with um but like that's kind of
- 00:51:11all we're made of you have some Concepts
- 00:51:14in the book and and by the way I I
- 00:51:16really enjoyed the writing I found it I
- 00:51:18found it um
- 00:51:21refreshingly um
- 00:51:24self-deprecating and just I mean it had
- 00:51:27a little bit of a text book academic
- 00:51:29component as well some of the diagrams
- 00:51:31and stuff but the way you write is very
- 00:51:34irreverent self-deprecating there there
- 00:51:37are plenty of times where I'm
- 00:51:40insufficiently self-deprecating and my
- 00:51:43wife could probably give you all sorts
- 00:51:44of examples of that but that's nice that
- 00:51:48you decided that
- 00:51:50um it just makes it easier for someone
- 00:51:53like me to read like I'm not interested
- 00:51:55in getting a degree in this stuff you
- 00:51:57know but you want to try to understand
- 00:51:58it well enough and and you talk about
- 00:52:02some really relevant Concepts especially
- 00:52:04relevant with everything that's going on
- 00:52:06today and I wanted to just uh double
- 00:52:09click on the joy of punishment section
- 00:52:12because you talk about Justice and I
- 00:52:13think this can really bring it home for
- 00:52:15a lot of people especially a lot of
- 00:52:17black people hearing about these kinds
- 00:52:19of of of Concepts you talk about the the
- 00:52:23hungry judge effect but but you also
- 00:52:24talk about lynching and all kinds of of
- 00:52:26things so I would say just pick your
- 00:52:28favorite example from that section of
- 00:52:31the book and and let's let's talk about
- 00:52:32how that relates to this idea of
- 00:52:34determinism you take people and you put
- 00:52:37them in a mock jury and they are trying
- 00:52:40to decide whether or not somebody
- 00:52:42committed a crime and it's all about
- 00:52:44their prefrontal cortex
- 00:52:46activation they decide they did commit a
- 00:52:48crime and now they get to decide the
- 00:52:50punishment and that's all about the
- 00:52:53limic system the emotional parts of the
- 00:52:55brain that's where the froth comes out
- 00:52:58that's where you see emotional brain
- 00:53:01regions have made a decision when you're
- 00:53:03doing brain Imaging before your cortex
- 00:53:06is catching up to give an explanation
- 00:53:08for it and sort of the backdrop to a lot
- 00:53:11of that is you know mammals like to
- 00:53:16punish like when a
- 00:53:20rat you know when a rat get lever
- 00:53:22pressed to get another rat a shock if
- 00:53:24the other rat has bitten it um not only
- 00:53:27will it lever press not only will it
- 00:53:29work to punish that rat but you can show
- 00:53:32there's activation of dopamine reward
- 00:53:35pathway is when that's happening the
- 00:53:37same exact thing in us like an
- 00:53:40incredibly powerful stimulant to the
- 00:53:44whole dopamine reward part of your brain
- 00:53:47is not only getting to punish somebody
- 00:53:49but feeling good about yourself when
- 00:53:51you're doing it feel as if Justice is
- 00:53:53being served and you are you know and
- 00:53:58anytime you try to unpack people's sense
- 00:54:02of what counts where is retribution
- 00:54:07appropriate and my view is it's never
- 00:54:10appropriate but what that is always just
- 00:54:13pickled in is people like to punish
- 00:54:16people like to blame people prefer to do
- 00:54:19that decreases your stress hormone
- 00:54:22levels you know we it's a bizarre
- 00:54:25feature of us almost certainly
- 00:54:27evolutionarily what it's about is um
- 00:54:32what's called third-party punishment in
- 00:54:34Game Theory you get two individuals and
- 00:54:36one of them is crummy to the other and
- 00:54:37this one has an option to take revenge
- 00:54:40and that could pull for cooperation a
- 00:54:42great way to get for cooperation is if
- 00:54:45you have a third- party individual as an
- 00:54:47objector outside or viewing it who's
- 00:54:50able to punish the one who is a jerk as
- 00:54:53soon as you bring in third-party
- 00:54:55punishment into sort of economic gains
- 00:54:57that really pushes for cooperation
- 00:55:00what's third party punishment that's the
- 00:55:02police that's your school teachers voice
- 00:55:05in your head all of that but the trouble
- 00:55:08is in formal Game Theory it's costly to
- 00:55:11punish I mean in all of these scenarios
- 00:55:15you were willing to give up a certain
- 00:55:17number of points that you have in order
- 00:55:20to take points away from that creep you
- 00:55:24have to pay it is costly to be a third
- 00:55:26party Punisher so where have we in
- 00:55:30evolved the the uh reasons to actually
- 00:55:34select for it first people who are third
- 00:55:36party punishers are trusted more when
- 00:55:39you observe people being third party
- 00:55:40punishers you're more Cooperative with
- 00:55:42them but the other thing is you evolved
- 00:55:45a system where it feels good to be a
- 00:55:47third-party Punisher that's
- 00:55:50exactly like that's where it came from
- 00:55:53punishment is costly detach third party
- 00:55:57punishment which is one of the most
- 00:55:58effective things out there to get
- 00:56:00organisms to start being cooperative is
- 00:56:03costly to this like
- 00:56:06objective bystander sort of thing how do
- 00:56:10you make that work evolutionarily it had
- 00:56:12to turn out that punishing especially
- 00:56:14when it is like in a sense of tremendous
- 00:56:18selfworth and goodness and all of that
- 00:56:20feels
- 00:56:22good and anything we think about a
- 00:56:25system of supposed
- 00:56:27Justice um has to not only incorporate
- 00:56:30all the ways in which we are irrational
- 00:56:33when it comes to considering someone who
- 00:56:35we unconsciously consider to be a them
- 00:56:38rather than an us all that sort of thing
- 00:56:41and then superos on top like the final
- 00:56:44frosting is we like to punish and we
- 00:56:47have a cortex that's very good at coming
- 00:56:49up with supposed rational explanations
- 00:56:52for why our affective emotive yic
- 00:56:57pleasure in punishment actually makes a
- 00:56:59great deal of sense after the fact and
- 00:57:02even little seemingly intangible things
- 00:57:05like whether or not the person who's in
- 00:57:07charge of this has eaten lunch is going
- 00:57:10to determine the degree of the
- 00:57:11punishment yeah all of this stuff going
- 00:57:14on
- 00:57:16subliminally like there's all these
- 00:57:20levers that are being turned on and off
- 00:57:22or buttons being pushed pushed or
- 00:57:25whatever in the biological machines that
- 00:57:27we are due to totally unexpected
- 00:57:30influences but yeah if you're uh if you
- 00:57:34stand before a judge in the United
- 00:57:36States and they're hungry the whole
- 00:57:39literature by now shows they are going
- 00:57:41to be less
- 00:57:43merciful if you stand before a judge in
- 00:57:46Saudi Arabia and they're hungry because
- 00:57:49they haven't eaten yet they're going to
- 00:57:51be less merciful to you if you stand
- 00:57:54before them and they're hungry because
- 00:57:56it's
- 00:57:57Ramadan they're going to be more
- 00:57:59merciful to you the longer they haven't
- 00:58:02eaten culture and values and how much
- 00:58:06your stomach is gurgling and what that
- 00:58:08means and does that mean you should be
- 00:58:10able to just throw this guy back in jail
- 00:58:12so you can go get a you know McDonald's
- 00:58:15or does it mean that your stomach is
- 00:58:17gurgling because you were reminded of
- 00:58:19your piety and like all of this stuff is
- 00:58:23playing out whoa you get the exact
- 00:58:26opposite results depending on if you're
- 00:58:28in a court in you know Kansas City or in
- 00:58:32Mecca the exact yeah stuff like that
- 00:58:36plays out in it also all of that matters
- 00:58:40talk about coincidence you had a section
- 00:58:42on coincidence and I wasn't
- 00:58:45clear about the diagrams but what is the
- 00:58:49the No Free Will perspective on
- 00:58:51coincidence oh that's just kind of
- 00:58:53getting at the nuts and bolts of when
- 00:58:55people say okay if you say there's no
- 00:58:57free will it means nothing can ever
- 00:58:59change things can change and when you
- 00:59:03look at the mechanisms by which
- 00:59:06organisms including us change their
- 00:59:09behavior not only do you realize change
- 00:59:12happens but you come away with seeing
- 00:59:15not only is it telling us about our
- 00:59:18Machin when you look at how it actually
- 00:59:20works under the hood but it's the same
- 00:59:23basic blueprint of Machin this when any
- 00:59:26other like organism out there is
- 00:59:28changing its behavior in response to
- 00:59:30experience and one of the key things
- 00:59:32that happens with it in terms of
- 00:59:34conditioning is there's whole circuitry
- 00:59:36in your brain that's very good at
- 00:59:39noticing when two things tend to go
- 00:59:42together as a pair when they tend to
- 00:59:45coincide you have very good coincidence
- 00:59:49detectors whether you are a human or you
- 00:59:52are a sea slug or anything in between
- 00:59:54and quines like that there's a whole
- 00:59:57neurobiology as to how you begin to
- 00:59:59connect the two and where one of them
- 01:00:02will trigger the other you've been
- 01:00:04conditioned to do something or other and
- 01:00:06when you've been conditioned to do
- 01:00:08something that way by something that
- 01:00:11actually had nothing to do with the
- 01:00:13other thing we say you're being
- 01:00:15superstitious you see causality that
- 01:00:18isn't there you you you have decided
- 01:00:21that wearing your lucky underwear is
- 01:00:23what like causes this outcome and
- 01:00:25there's neurobiology to how it is that
- 01:00:28those went together enough that you
- 01:00:30decide that one does to the other that's
- 01:00:32part of the what kind of brain you have
- 01:00:35during this moment how readily did you
- 01:00:38wind up with a brain that links together
- 01:00:41two events how much is your brain w that
- 01:00:45respect sort of critical thinking to say
- 01:00:48okay is this really the case let's let's
- 01:00:50look at this closely how much emotional
- 01:00:53Comfort do you get when you see Co
- 01:00:56incidences that help you explain the
- 01:00:58world how much of an in how do you turn
- 01:01:01out to be the sort of person you are
- 01:01:04where two things come together and How
- 01:01:06likely are you to Yoke the two of them
- 01:01:09together that somebody says oh I had the
- 01:01:13election stolen from me and you yoke
- 01:01:16that with the notion of that is truth
- 01:01:19and
- 01:01:21Justice different sorts of ways you wind
- 01:01:23up being the sort of person Where You're
- 01:01:25vulnerable able to that or not versus
- 01:01:28saying hey we can deconstruct this in
- 01:01:30about 3 seconds and show that that's
- 01:01:32nonsense you know all these ways in
- 01:01:35which you know we're very good we we
- 01:01:40animals are very good at detecting
- 01:01:44coincidences and inferring causality but
- 01:01:47we're very vulnerable to seeing
- 01:01:50causality that isn't actually there in
- 01:01:52circumstances where we're stressed and
- 01:01:55we're angry and we're tired and we're
- 01:01:57hungry and we're afraid and we're
- 01:01:59resentful and we're have outgroup
- 01:02:02hatreds and the all of those make us
- 01:02:06much less effective at doing this but
- 01:02:08the underlying machine area doing it
- 01:02:10it's the same in Us in the sea
- 01:02:12slug and
- 01:02:14basically what I'm what I'm getting from
- 01:02:17this is you don't want to be the baboon
- 01:02:19who's freaking out because the higher
- 01:02:21status baboon is taking a nap 50 yards
- 01:02:23away you want to be able to perceive
- 01:02:26life in general as
- 01:02:29objectively as possible and and what
- 01:02:32what I'm thinking of now is I don't
- 01:02:33remember if I read this or heard it in
- 01:02:35an interview with you but you talk about
- 01:02:36how racism is a very natural phenomenon
- 01:02:40we're all essentially racist but what
- 01:02:42you're really saying is we're all tribal
- 01:02:43we identify with other people who look
- 01:02:46like us and who behave like us and who
- 01:02:48agree to the same cultural and
- 01:02:49doctrination as us and whether we have
- 01:02:52access to our prefrontal cortex or not
- 01:02:54really is the determining fact Factor if
- 01:02:56we are going to display an act of racism
- 01:02:59or if we're going to keep ourselves in
- 01:03:00check um it's getting at this whole
- 01:03:02business that we're really really
- 01:03:05automatic and distinguishing between us
- 01:03:08as and thems we other primates do as
- 01:03:11well it's incredibly automatic you see
- 01:03:13them really like 10mon old kids already
- 01:03:17we do it in a fraction of a second and
- 01:03:20it's always in the direction of someone
- 01:03:22who counts as a them we're not very
- 01:03:24predisposed toward treating them nicely
- 01:03:27kind of thing but at the same time it's
- 01:03:30incredibly easy to manipulate us as to
- 01:03:33who counts as an us and a them and you
- 01:03:37could change those categories in a flash
- 01:03:39of a second you can shift those around
- 01:03:43and you say well are you left with the
- 01:03:46conclusion there that maybe some of
- 01:03:49these categories are more baked in there
- 01:03:51that they're harder to get rid of race
- 01:03:55turns out to be one that is not very
- 01:03:57baked in there and it makes a lot of
- 01:04:00sense when you think about human
- 01:04:01evolution races I don't know they're
- 01:04:04maybe 20 30,000 years old which is an
- 01:04:07eye blink in terms of homin and history
- 01:04:11um and most of all for 99% of human
- 01:04:15Hunter gather history the nearest person
- 01:04:17you the furthest person away you would
- 01:04:19meet in your life was somebody from
- 01:04:21three valleys over someone who looked
- 01:04:23just like you nobody started
- 01:04:25encountering people of other races until
- 01:04:27I don't know colonialism got its start
- 01:04:30and that sort this is not a deeply
- 01:04:33ingrained thing this one is is
- 01:04:36surface uh surface deep and it's totally
- 01:04:40easy to get people to switch from
- 01:04:43unconscious racial categorizations of
- 01:04:46people to switch them to different ones
- 01:04:48in a fraction of a second that's one
- 01:04:49that's easy the one that is totally in
- 01:04:52their big surprise is sex differences
- 01:04:56because that one's only I don't know a
- 01:04:58couple of billion years old instead of
- 01:05:0020,000 years old that one is much much
- 01:05:03harder like it is way easy when you
- 01:05:06switch like sports team uniforms for
- 01:05:09people to switch people from
- 01:05:12categorizing the players by race to
- 01:05:14categorizing them by team do the same
- 01:05:17thing with male and female players and
- 01:05:20now you switch them around and you can't
- 01:05:23break through that with simply putting
- 01:05:24different color Jers on people that
- 01:05:27one's the one that's really
- 01:05:28fundamentally in there but racism amid
- 01:05:31all the reasons to be like
- 01:05:33unbelievably like despairing about it is
- 01:05:37it's really not deeply wired into us and
- 01:05:42reflecting the fact that race as a
- 01:05:44biological phenomenon is is a pretty
- 01:05:47flimsy concept anyway of that as sort of
- 01:05:52entities in and of themselves rather
- 01:05:54than being on biological continu
- 01:05:56so bad news is we really quickly decide
- 01:06:00that there's thems out there we don't
- 01:06:02like them and we're awful to them we
- 01:06:04have all sorts of great cognitive ways
- 01:06:06of making it seem like we're much better
- 01:06:08people than they are but the good thing
- 01:06:11is you know it's not that hard to change
- 01:06:14your categories or to change it in
- 01:06:16somebody else and maybe what that means
- 01:06:19is like the goal is not to get rid of us
- 01:06:24theming because I think that's kind of
- 01:06:27automatic I think that's virtually
- 01:06:29inevitable in a social primate but to at
- 01:06:32least get people to use more benign
- 01:06:36categories like people who really really
- 01:06:40don't like broccoli and people who do
- 01:06:43probably lot not a lot of Earth's misery
- 01:06:47over the centuries have been caused by
- 01:06:49in-group outgroup differences about
- 01:06:51opinions about broccoli go build your
- 01:06:54view about the world and types of people
- 01:06:57as to whether or not people have more or
- 01:06:59less than six cavities whether or not
- 01:07:02they you know find benign domains of
- 01:07:06doing that or just very objectively
- 01:07:09doing it between people who are nice and
- 01:07:12people who are crummy and like that's
- 01:07:15kind of a good thing if you can get
- 01:07:16people operating that way and that
- 01:07:18usually makes for a better Society I
- 01:07:20don't think you can get rid of us them
- 01:07:23dichotomies um but I think we can defang
- 01:07:27them much more
- 01:07:28easily than people normally assume it
- 01:07:32sounds like what you're advocating for
- 01:07:34is having an open mind right so again
- 01:07:38having more access to the part of your
- 01:07:40brain that's in control of having an
- 01:07:42open mind so what are some practices
- 01:07:45what are some ways that people can do
- 01:07:46this if you've identified yourself as
- 01:07:49you know I'm a little bit closed off in
- 01:07:51certain areas I I like this conversation
- 01:07:53I love what he's talking about I want to
- 01:07:54read the book
- 01:07:56what is there anything we can do in in
- 01:07:58the
- 01:08:00immediate time to kind of open this up I
- 01:08:03I guess there's all those mechanical
- 01:08:06things of like there there's a whole
- 01:08:08science of as you get older like as you
- 01:08:11get late teenage years how you begin
- 01:08:13closing to all sorts of novelty um so
- 01:08:16that you're like 95% of the way stuck in
- 01:08:20this domain this doain by the time
- 01:08:22you're 25 by the time you're 30 uh so
- 01:08:26the realm of all those when's the last
- 01:08:28time you did something completely new
- 01:08:29learn a new language go travel to a
- 01:08:32place you've never wanted to see you
- 01:08:34know all of those sort of very
- 01:08:37heavy-handed
- 01:08:38interventions um just operate with the
- 01:08:41assumption that whatever you've come up
- 01:08:43with is your easiest easiest explanation
- 01:08:45for what's going on is probably not
- 01:08:47what's going on and just have that as a
- 01:08:51general rule and try to take it from
- 01:08:55from there all that being said you know
- 01:08:58being able to think clearly about this
- 01:09:00stuff and use your prefrontal cortex and
- 01:09:03overcome your implicit biases and
- 01:09:06understand the world as it is and old
- 01:09:08women don't really cause hurricanes and
- 01:09:10oo let's let's just be rational beings
- 01:09:13some of the time you're screwed with
- 01:09:15that some of the time like knowing the
- 01:09:19truth and understanding like
- 01:09:21circumstances and where control is and
- 01:09:24isn't um some of the time that's a
- 01:09:26disaster if you're like one of the major
- 01:09:30hav knots there um in circumstances like
- 01:09:34that fostering self-deception is a very
- 01:09:37good therapeutic thing um you don't want
- 01:09:40to make somebody feel like they were in
- 01:09:42control over something I had no control
- 01:09:44over if the outcome was bad like they
- 01:09:48never got higher socioeconomic status
- 01:09:51they
- 01:09:52never you know if the outcome is good
- 01:09:56you Foster somebody's selfworth if you
- 01:09:59give them a sense of control when they
- 01:10:01really didn't have it when you give
- 01:10:03somebody a sense of control when the
- 01:10:04outcome was bad and they couldn't have
- 01:10:06controlled it or even if they could have
- 01:10:09um decrease somebody's sense of control
- 01:10:11their enhance their self-deception and
- 01:10:14their rationalizations like it's a
- 01:10:16fairly narrow do domain in which reality
- 01:10:19and facing reality is actually a helpful
- 01:10:23thing um you know it's not a get as much
- 01:10:27control as much predictability as much
- 01:10:29information in your life as possible
- 01:10:33um understand which things you could
- 01:10:36control and not control you know
- 01:10:39straight out of knore sort of thing um
- 01:10:44and when the outcome is bad maybe you
- 01:10:47should in fact tell yourself you didn't
- 01:10:49have control over that after all um that
- 01:10:52could be very beneficial psychologically
- 01:10:55yeah determine reminds it reminds me of
- 01:10:58the scientific version of 48 Laws of
- 01:11:01Power by Robert Green you know where he
- 01:11:03just talks about the different aspects
- 01:11:06of human behavior from a political and
- 01:11:09power Dynamic but you're actually giving
- 01:11:12scientific rationale and citing research
- 01:11:17that helps people
- 01:11:20understand why they may be behaving in a
- 01:11:22certain way or why you may be getting
- 01:11:24upset like you talked about in an
- 01:11:25interview sitting in those Stanford
- 01:11:27faculty meetings and you could see the
- 01:11:29whole it was like you were on the you
- 01:11:31know serengetti or whatever the baboon
- 01:11:33Reserve was you could see the whole
- 01:11:35power structure playing out and I think
- 01:11:37being able to see that and having
- 01:11:39language for it and having reference
- 01:11:41points for it helps you to be more
- 01:11:44objective in it or not take it
- 01:11:46personally or you know whatever the case
- 01:11:49anything that keeps you rooted in the
- 01:11:51present moment where you can then make
- 01:11:53better I I don't know if this is the the
- 01:11:55right language for but better choices
- 01:11:57for you or for your students or for
- 01:11:59whatever whatever you're advocating
- 01:12:02for I mean all that understanding just
- 01:12:06to fall back into mechanistic biologist
- 01:12:10that I am the more understanding you
- 01:12:12have where everyone's buttons and levers
- 01:12:15are the more you understand how those
- 01:12:18buttons and levers got made um the more
- 01:12:22you do that the more accurate of you
- 01:12:24you're going to have about the world and
- 01:12:26and lots of domains that's going to be a
- 01:12:27very good thing because you'll see the
- 01:12:29extent to which people had nothing to do
- 01:12:31with how they turned out hey really
- 01:12:33quickly if you like this content or if
- 01:12:36you don't like it let me know down in
- 01:12:38the comments because your likes and
- 01:12:39comments are going to help me learn what
- 01:12:42you want more of and then that way I can
- 01:12:44keep bringing you the good stuff all
- 01:12:46right thanks so much for your feedback
- 01:12:49and back to the show what are your
- 01:12:51what's your thinking on
- 01:12:52success is it about self-preservation
- 01:12:55it's obviously not about making as much
- 01:12:57money as possible whatever but what is
- 01:12:59what is the the terministic idea of
- 01:13:02success oh that's a very tough one and
- 01:13:07about three minutes after the book went
- 01:13:10off to the the printer so I couldn't
- 01:13:13change a word in there anymore I
- 01:13:14immediately had the oh my God I can't
- 01:13:16believe I didn't spend more time on this
- 01:13:19we have no free will that's terrible are
- 01:13:22you g to have just criminals run around
- 01:13:24free no no no you could construct a
- 01:13:26world in which people are protected from
- 01:13:29dangerous individuals without invoking a
- 01:13:31sense of culpability on the part of the
- 01:13:33dangerous individuals good that one's
- 01:13:36easy that one's easy getting something
- 01:13:38to completely replace the criminal
- 01:13:40justice system but it would have to be
- 01:13:41something like a a quarantine public
- 01:13:44health model so that one seems hard
- 01:13:46enough but then the flip side oh my God
- 01:13:50we need to do something about people who
- 01:13:52feel like they really do deserve as a c
- 01:13:55o a salary that's a thousandfold higher
- 01:13:58than the workers there you really do
- 01:14:00need to you know meritocracy that's got
- 01:14:03to go also because praise and reward for
- 01:14:07things you didn't really earn that's
- 01:14:09just as damaging but that one's a harder
- 01:14:11one exactly for what you're bringing up
- 01:14:15okay that person is dangerous for
- 01:14:17reasons out of their
- 01:14:18control just keep them from being
- 01:14:21dangerous that person has the potential
- 01:14:24to be very very beneficial to people um
- 01:14:28but they're going to have to spend a
- 01:14:29hell of a lot of time learning how to be
- 01:14:31a good cardiothoracic surgeon they're
- 01:14:34GNA have to like stay up late and study
- 01:14:37they're gonna have to skip a lot of
- 01:14:38parties that's a much harder one you
- 01:14:42know we want Society to be protected
- 01:14:44from dangerous individuals we want
- 01:14:45Society to be protected from incompetent
- 01:14:48individuals when it's time to take out
- 01:14:50your brain tumor you don't want to pick
- 01:14:52a random person from off the street to
- 01:14:54do that because meritocracy is damaging
- 01:14:57like you got to find a way to motivate
- 01:15:00people to do the really difficult
- 01:15:03process of getting very good at tough
- 01:15:07helpful things without having them come
- 01:15:10out the end feeling like they are a
- 01:15:11better human than other people as a
- 01:15:14result that's a much harder one and
- 01:15:16that's where dangling Notions of what
- 01:15:19counts as success that's that one I I
- 01:15:22haven't made a dent in trying to figure
- 01:15:26out because you know you really got to
- 01:15:31get a special mindset in somebody if
- 01:15:33they're going to work 80 hour weeks for
- 01:15:35a decade or two to come up with a
- 01:15:36vaccine for
- 01:15:38something like and there's got to be a
- 01:15:41way of doing it other than there's going
- 01:15:43to be all sorts of suspect versions of
- 01:15:46success and reward that one Taps into in
- 01:15:50the way humans operate um like I don't
- 01:15:55think I could
- 01:15:56convince like some grad student to work
- 01:16:0080 hour weeks in the lab to come up with
- 01:16:03one little factoid gear in a whole
- 01:16:06scientific study by telling them you're
- 01:16:08doing this for the common good yeah
- 01:16:11that's not going to work quite as well
- 01:16:13when their damn roommate is going out to
- 01:16:14a party and they're deciding to sit
- 01:16:16there and work more the motivation for
- 01:16:19that and what will count as success
- 01:16:22that's I have so much less
- 01:16:25insight into that as you know just keep
- 01:16:29people safe from dangerous people but
- 01:16:31don't make the dangerous people feel
- 01:16:32like they're rotten humans in the
- 01:16:34process and don't punish them because
- 01:16:36punishment makes no sense and be on
- 01:16:38guard that it feels good to
- 01:16:41punish so it sounds like we're more like
- 01:16:44we're more like baboons than we probably
- 01:16:47imagine and having studied baboons for
- 01:16:51decades um and you'd be if you could
- 01:16:53communicate with a baboon and talk about
- 01:16:55the concept of free will they probably
- 01:16:56would think is ridiculous as well right
- 01:16:59but what does what does studying baboom
- 01:17:03reveal about where we're going as a
- 01:17:07human
- 01:17:10race well they're just a good model
- 01:17:15system um for trying to understand the
- 01:17:18levers and
- 01:17:20buttons in a system that's based on the
- 01:17:22same blueprint as us but is simpler in a
- 01:17:25lot of ways it's the same basic
- 01:17:29biological blueprint your brain is doing
- 01:17:32the exact same thing when you're being
- 01:17:34an aggressive human and an aggressive
- 01:17:36baboon your brain is doing totally
- 01:17:38different things when the baboon is
- 01:17:40slashing somebody right in front of them
- 01:17:42and you're pressing a button to operate
- 01:17:45a drone on the other side of the planet
- 01:17:48like that's where we have the exact same
- 01:17:50blueprint and we're using it in
- 01:17:51completely novel unprecedented ways um
- 01:17:55yeah sometimes it's useful to see just
- 01:17:59how
- 01:18:01fundamental taking it out on somebody
- 01:18:03weaker is as a way of reducing stress
- 01:18:07seeing just how protective social
- 01:18:10support can be rather than getting into
- 01:18:13humans is this person actually a friend
- 01:18:14or are they just an acquaintance or are
- 01:18:16they just a
- 01:18:17pass you know baboons don't meet
- 01:18:20somebody at a bar and the next morning
- 01:18:23they have to decide was this a
- 01:18:24meaningful interaction or not it's a
- 01:18:27it's a simpler landscape built on
- 01:18:30nonetheless the same basic blueprint
- 01:18:33it's just easier to get insights into it
- 01:18:35that way I guess what I'm wondering is
- 01:18:37is this is this supposed delusion of of
- 01:18:41Free Will is it is it ultimately
- 01:18:43self-destructive for us as a race or is
- 01:18:48or do you think that um we're leaving
- 01:18:51the world better just like the baboons
- 01:18:53are um oh absolutely worse and it's just
- 01:18:58an issue of like how does the center
- 01:19:04hold when you got a world built
- 01:19:08on
- 01:19:10justifying a small subset of people
- 01:19:13being treated way better than Irish
- 01:19:14reason data and most people in some
- 01:19:16domains being treated way worse than
- 01:19:19yeah you you can't if you're running
- 01:19:22stuff on that you're going to get into
- 01:19:24TR trouble and the world has no shortage
- 01:19:27of like examples of why that gets you
- 01:19:29into trouble and the US's an amazing
- 01:19:34sort of venture in the last 50 years as
- 01:19:36to how much like easily Justified
- 01:19:39inequality makes for a much worse place
- 01:19:42and inequality is completely built on
- 01:19:45Notions that Free Will is for Real it's
- 01:19:49just different outcomes are just justice
- 01:19:52has been served
- 01:19:55and as a final statement right I think
- 01:19:57saying there's no such thing as free
- 01:19:59will is it's it's not as inspiring but
- 01:20:03as maybe something more like um everyone
- 01:20:06has something to contribute was that is
- 01:20:09that would that be a statement that you
- 01:20:11could stand behind or what what's what's
- 01:20:13a final statement or what would you want
- 01:20:15on a billboard for people to understand
- 01:20:18in order to create the kind of society
- 01:20:21that you think is more sustainable
- 01:20:24well may be that not everyone that does
- 01:20:26have something to contribute which would
- 01:20:28be kind of a bummer but may be the case
- 01:20:31maybe in a broader sense
- 01:20:34um every time you're pleased with
- 01:20:37yourself or displeased with another
- 01:20:39human remember neither of you had any
- 01:20:42control over how you turned out to be
- 01:20:44who you are in that
- 01:20:48moment okay
- 01:20:52beautiful I think I think that
- 01:20:55you know again to me the idea of of
- 01:20:58reminding ourselves of these things is
- 01:21:01to
- 01:21:02stay present because you get into
- 01:21:06comparison comparison is the thief of
- 01:21:09Joy um or you get into past regret or
- 01:21:12you get into future worry you're the
- 01:21:13baboon worried about the higher status
- 01:21:15baboon so anytime you can be more
- 01:21:17present to whatever it is you're doing
- 01:21:19you will be able to find more inherent
- 01:21:21Beauty in whatever it is that you're
- 01:21:23doing and for whatever for whatever
- 01:21:26benefit that
- 01:21:27has and to have a more accurate
- 01:21:30picture beautiful well thank you so much
- 01:21:33for for coming on and and sharing your
- 01:21:36perspective are you already working on
- 01:21:37the next book or thinking about the next
- 01:21:39book or you just kind I am assuming I
- 01:21:42don't have it in me to generate another
- 01:21:45book but that that happened after you
- 01:21:47probably say that every time after all
- 01:21:49your books you're like I can't it's
- 01:21:51about a one year lag and before I
- 01:21:52suddenly sit up and say
- 01:21:55aha now this one will actually be
- 01:21:57interesting this is the one that'll be
- 01:21:59worth spending five years on well thank
- 01:22:02you for your contribution to our culture
- 01:22:05and our society it's been an honor to
- 01:22:07have a conversation with you I've I've
- 01:22:09you've been on my short list for a very
- 01:22:11long time so I'm glad it finally got to
- 01:22:13happen oh great thanks thanks for having
- 01:22:15me on this was uh a total pleasure be
- 01:22:20well if you like that video you're going
- 01:22:22to love the next one click this
- 01:22:25thumbnail right here and I'll see you
- 01:22:27over there
- free will
- determinism
- primatology
- stress
- social hierarchies
- human behavior
- baboons
- prefrontal cortex
- personality
- social affiliation