Emily Troscianko-Why We Need Cognitive Literary Studies To Help Us Understand & Treat Mental Illness

01:12:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRu6LmP351c

Summary

TLDREmily Shenko, a research associate at Oxford, explores the interface between cognitive science and literary studies. Her work focuses on understanding the mental impact of literature, particularly regarding mental health issues like eating disorders. She uses Kafka's works to develop the concept of 'cognitive realism,' which seeks to explain how storytelling can psychologically engage the reader. Shenko discusses the lack of current research in this interdisciplinary area, emphasizes the potential risks and benefits of fiction on mental wellbeing, and calls for more empirical studies to understand the mechanisms involved. Through her collaboration with the eating disorders charity Beat, she examines how literature might influence individuals' perceptions of their mental health, highlighting both therapeutic and harmful potentials of narrative engagement. Shenko stresses the need for dialogue between humanities and sciences to comprehend literature's profound effects on cognition and behavior.

Takeaways

  • πŸŽ“ Emily Shenko connects cognitive science and literary studies.
  • πŸ“š Explores Kafka's influence on reader cognition through 'cognitive realism'.
  • 🍽️ Investigates fiction's impact on disordered eating.
  • πŸ’‘ Highlights the lack of research on literature's effect on mental health.
  • πŸ”„ Discusses positive and negative feedback loops in reader psychology.
  • 🧠 Suggests fiction can both harm and heal mental health conditions.
  • πŸ“ˆ Calls for empirical studies to understand literary impact mechanisms.
  • 🀝 Collaborates with Beat charity to explore literature's role in mental health.
  • πŸ” Emphasizes the need for interdisciplinary research between sciences and humanities.
  • πŸ’¬ Advocates for a balanced view on literature's benefits and risks.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The Cognitive Science in the Arts and Humanities event introduces speaker Emily Shenko, known for integrating cognitive science and literature. Shenko, a research associate at Oxford, explores how cognitive models explain the eeriness in Kafka's works. Her book "Kafka's Cognitive Realism" examines the realism in literature, questioning its accuracy and impact on readers.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Emily Shenko emphasizes the importance of interdisciplinary dialogue between humanities and cognitive sciences. She discusses her work on Kafka and the integration of cognitive science, particularly second-generation cognitive science focusing on embodied experience. This enhances ethical and interpretative literary scholarship.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Shenko plans to discuss interdisciplinarity's role in examining the usefulness of literature, particularly relating to mental health and disordered eating. She will explore how fiction reading interacts with cultural aspects of eating disorders, and the limited research in this area. She advocates for cognitive literary science in understanding literary effects.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Shenko seeks to explore the complex interplay between personal motivation and academic pursuit, aiming for a meaningful contribution in the realm of cognitive literary studies. She emphasizes the need to balance personal interests with professional goals, especially when connecting literature and cognitive science.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Shenko shares her personal journey into cognitive literary studies, prompted by her interest in Kafka's narratives. Her initial reluctance and crisis led her to seek questions that genuinely interested her, combining her scientific background with literary analysis to address cognitive realism in literature.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    The interdisciplinary approach helps Shenko tackle questions about the interaction between literary works and the reader's mind, focusing on literary effects and their potential therapeutic implications for mental health issues like eating disorders. Her own experiences with eating disorders partly drive this research.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Shenko realized the lack of research linking fiction reading with mental health, particularly eating disorders. She began a project exploring this interaction, combining personal history with literary scholarship. The project aims to highlight potential therapeutic roles fiction might play in mental health.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Shenko conducted a major survey with support from the UK eating disorders charity, Beat, to explore perceptions of reading's impact on mental health. The survey revealed complex interactions, with respondents often linking reading to exacerbating or alleviating symptoms, highlighting literature's dual potential for harm and benefit.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    Shenko identifies various feedback loops in which fiction interacts with mental health, particularly eating disorders. The survey suggests that fictional narratives can either positively or negatively influence attitudes and behaviors, serving as feedback within the cognitive and emotional systems of readers.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    The research identifies both positive and negative feedback loops in readers with eating disorders. Shenko aims to explore literature's effects on mood, body image, and self-esteem. She emphasizes the need for in-depth investigation into how literature can harm or help, beyond simple assumptions of its therapeutic potential.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:55:00

    Shenko highlights the necessity for empirical studies on bibliotherapy, noting a lack of rigorous exploration of how fiction might aid or harm mental health. She critiques the reliance on assumptions about literature's beneficial nature and calls for scientific inquiry into its mechanisms, particularly in cognitive literary studies.

  • 00:55:00 - 01:00:00

    Shenko expresses skepticism about existing literary therapy models and calls for a more nuanced understanding of literature's impact on mental health, particularly in relation to eating disorders. She challenges simplistic views of literary insight as inherently beneficial and opens the field for more precise investigations.

  • 01:00:00 - 01:05:00

    Shenko addresses the partnership challenges with non-academic entities like Beat, advocating for data-driven discussions on literature's impact on mental health. She explores the potential role of first-person narratives and cognitive realism in literature, examining how these might influence emotional and cognitive engagement.

  • 01:05:00 - 01:12:55

    In conclusion, Shenko acknowledges the broader application of cognitive literary studies beyond eating disorders, urging a focus on detailed mechanisms rather than assumptions. She reflects on the interplay between personal and academic motivations, advocating for innovative approaches in cognitive and medical humanities.

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Mind Map

Video Q&A

  • Who is Emily Shenko?

    Emily Shenko is a research associate and postdoctoral training coordinator at the University of Oxford. She specializes in cognitive literary science.

  • What is cognitive realism?

    Cognitive realism is a concept that explores how literary texts replicate or correspond to cognitive processes in the reader's mind, making the text seem realistic and impactful.

  • What was Emily Shenko's first book?

    Emily Shenko's first book was "Kafka's Cognitive Realism," published by Rutledge in 2014.

  • What is the main focus of Emily Shenko's talk?

    Her main focus is on the intersection between cognitive science and literary studies, particularly looking at how these can inform our understanding of mental health issues like eating disorders.

  • What are some features of Kafka's literary style according to Emily Shenko?

    Kafka's style is noted for its minimal descriptions, creating an eerie feeling that engages readers' cognitive processes deeply.

  • How does Emily Shenko view the role of literature in mental health?

    She suggests that literature can both positively and negatively impact mental health by influencing readers' cognitive and emotional responses.

  • What is the connection between disordered eating and fiction reading according to Shenko?

    Shenko postulates that fiction can reflect cultural narratives about body image and health, potentially influencing readers in both harmful and beneficial ways.

  • What is the role of interdisciplinarity in Shenko's work?

    Interdisciplinarity in Shenko's work allows for the blending of cognitive science and literary studies to address questions about mental health and the impact of literature.

  • What methodological approach does Shenko use in her research?

    She uses empirical research, including surveys and interdisciplinary analysis, to explore the relationships between literature, cognitive processes, and mental health.

  • What organizations supported the event Shenko spoke at?

    The event was supported by Stony Brook GSO and the PHOS grant.

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  • 00:00:00
    hi thanks for joining us for the second
  • 00:00:04
    cognitive science in the arts and
  • 00:00:05
    humanities event for this semester the
  • 00:00:08
    speaker series which has now been
  • 00:00:09
    running for about three years is funded
  • 00:00:11
    by the Stony Brook gso and phos grant
  • 00:00:14
    without whose support we probably
  • 00:00:16
    wouldn't be able to do any of this so
  • 00:00:17
    thank you to both of those organizations
  • 00:00:19
    our speaker today is Emily Shenko Emily
  • 00:00:23
    is a research associate and postdoctoral
  • 00:00:25
    training coordinator at the University
  • 00:00:26
    of Oxford she received a doctorate in
  • 00:00:29
    2010 also from Oxford with a project
  • 00:00:31
    entitled fuller the literary science of
  • 00:00:34
    the Kafkaesque in which uses recent
  • 00:00:36
    cognitive scientific models of
  • 00:00:37
    perception to help explain the eerie
  • 00:00:39
    feeling of reading Kafka short stories
  • 00:00:42
    that study became her first book Kafka's
  • 00:00:45
    cognitive realism published by Rutledge
  • 00:00:47
    in 2014 and a paperback edition is
  • 00:00:49
    coming out next week yes
  • 00:00:55
    yeah so that study advances the idea of
  • 00:00:59
    cognitive realism intending to provide a
  • 00:01:01
    framework for asking and beginning to
  • 00:01:03
    answer questions relevant to literary
  • 00:01:05
    scholars of all theoretical backgrounds
  • 00:01:07
    what does it mean to represent mirror
  • 00:01:10
    depict or correspond to reality
  • 00:01:12
    faithfully accurately almost
  • 00:01:14
    photographically or in a true-to-life
  • 00:01:16
    fashion what makes the text seem
  • 00:01:18
    realistic to a reader does a realistic
  • 00:01:21
    test text have systematically different
  • 00:01:23
    effects on readers than an unrealistic
  • 00:01:25
    text and what specific textual features
  • 00:01:28
    are responsible for creating such
  • 00:01:30
    effects
  • 00:01:31
    ever the conscientious practitioner of
  • 00:01:34
    interdisciplinary research Emily's work
  • 00:01:37
    has accentuated the need for dialogue
  • 00:01:38
    between the humanities and the cognitive
  • 00:01:40
    sciences not merely a one-way street in
  • 00:01:42
    which literary scholars like pirates
  • 00:01:44
    plumb the depths of scientific studies
  • 00:01:46
    to see what we can kind of make use of
  • 00:01:48
    in this vein she and Michael Burke have
  • 00:01:51
    an edited collection entitled cognitive
  • 00:01:53
    literary science dialogues between
  • 00:01:54
    literature and cognition forthcoming
  • 00:01:57
    from Oxford University Press I first saw
  • 00:02:00
    Emily presents at the second cognitive
  • 00:02:02
    features in the humanities conference in
  • 00:02:03
    2014 in Durham where she prevented that
  • 00:02:07
    presented a paper on another Kafka story
  • 00:02:09
    a Hunger artist she talked about how
  • 00:02:11
    second generation cognitive science
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    which in short considers how embodied
  • 00:02:15
    experience plays into cognition thought
  • 00:02:18
    including research on eating disorders
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    and starvation can factor into two
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    traditional literary critical concerns
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    Matic interpretation and paradox
  • 00:02:27
    she further argued that a first-person
  • 00:02:30
    perspective one that acknowledges the
  • 00:02:32
    complexity of actual real-world
  • 00:02:33
    embodiment can at least sometimes enrich
  • 00:02:36
    the field of cognitive literary studies
  • 00:02:38
    in combining first-person and
  • 00:02:40
    second-generation perspectives on
  • 00:02:42
    literature the presentation went we can
  • 00:02:45
    kind of move toward both an ethical and
  • 00:02:48
    interpretive Lee rewarding form of
  • 00:02:50
    literary scholarship it was for sure one
  • 00:02:53
    of the most eye-opening original
  • 00:02:54
    insightful arguments have come across
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    especially in the form of a 15-minute
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    conference presentation and I think it's
  • 00:02:59
    a prime example of what good
  • 00:03:01
    interdisciplinary research can bring to
  • 00:03:03
    the humanities with that please welcome
  • 00:03:05
    Elaine Cheng oh
  • 00:03:10
    thank you that's a lovely introduction I
  • 00:03:13
    appreciate it I'm very happy to be here
  • 00:03:15
    I
  • 00:03:16
    will be trying to I'll be starting by
  • 00:03:22
    approaching this question of need and of
  • 00:03:25
    usefulness via the the back door if you
  • 00:03:29
    like of interdisciplinarity because for
  • 00:03:31
    me that's that's the way I found myself
  • 00:03:33
    moving towards things that might
  • 00:03:35
    actually be called useful then I'll I'll
  • 00:03:38
    set out the particular realm of
  • 00:03:41
    usefulness which I'll be dealing with
  • 00:03:42
    today which relates to mental health and
  • 00:03:44
    specifically disordered eating in
  • 00:03:47
    relation to fiction reading I'll give
  • 00:03:49
    some some reasons why I think these
  • 00:03:51
    these two areas disorder dating and
  • 00:03:54
    fiction reading might have useful things
  • 00:03:56
    to say about it it's to say to each
  • 00:03:58
    other
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    partly the the culturally inflected
  • 00:04:01
    nature of eating disorders and partly
  • 00:04:04
    the the very strong embodied quality
  • 00:04:06
    that they manifest
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    which also has implications for kind of
  • 00:04:11
    mind-body feedback loops which I've
  • 00:04:12
    recently started to get really
  • 00:04:14
    interested in
  • 00:04:15
    then I'll talk about the the state of
  • 00:04:17
    the research in this field moment which
  • 00:04:19
    is pretty easy to do because it's hardly
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    any
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    and then I will ask why there is so
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    little research and suggests that maybe
  • 00:04:27
    part of the problem is it's it's quite
  • 00:04:29
    easy to just fall into idealistic
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    assumptions about the
  • 00:04:33
    the wonderfully beneficial nature of you
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    know literature rather than actually
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    inquiring into whether this is the case
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    so I'll present some very preliminary
  • 00:04:47
    empirical evidence that suggests yes
  • 00:04:50
    there may be some beneficial effects but
  • 00:04:51
    also we have to take very seriously the
  • 00:04:53
    possibility that fiction really might be
  • 00:04:55
    doing people harm as well and that will
  • 00:04:57
    lead me to sort of broaden out into a
  • 00:04:59
    bit of reflection on triggering trigger
  • 00:05:02
    warnings safe spaces and all these kind
  • 00:05:03
    of things that are so
  • 00:05:06
    heated in the academic context at the
  • 00:05:08
    moment particularly I also reflect a bit
  • 00:05:12
    on the joys and the frustrations of
  • 00:05:14
    working with non-academic partners and I
  • 00:05:18
    will conclude with some thoughts about
  • 00:05:19
    why we really need
  • 00:05:22
    cognitive literary studies or as I
  • 00:05:24
    prefer to call it cognitive literary
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    science or see else I just to be trendy
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    why we need this this kind of
  • 00:05:30
    disciplinary contribution to a more
  • 00:05:33
    medically orientated study of literary
  • 00:05:36
    effects and throughout I will be
  • 00:05:40
    there will be a thread of kind of
  • 00:05:43
    interaction between the we in my title
  • 00:05:46
    and and the I I will be trying to be
  • 00:05:51
    fairly honest about my own
  • 00:05:54
    investments and commitments and reasons
  • 00:05:57
    for doing the stuff that I'm doing
  • 00:05:58
    because I think this is one of the
  • 00:05:59
    interesting questions that we that we
  • 00:06:02
    encounter when we start to to ask these
  • 00:06:04
    questions about usefulness
  • 00:06:06
    just before I start there I'd be really
  • 00:06:08
    interested to know just vaguely what
  • 00:06:11
    disciplines you feel that you primarily
  • 00:06:13
    inhabit because you put up your hand if
  • 00:06:16
    you think of yourself as a
  • 00:06:18
    sane mainstream literary critical person
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    so not cognitive
  • 00:06:25
    okay and cognitive literary
  • 00:06:29
    very hesitant you group
  • 00:06:33
    come to science II
  • 00:06:36
    I haven't said that yet big great
  • 00:06:40
    medical healthy feels okay nice mixture
  • 00:06:44
    who haven't I covered
  • 00:06:46
    what do you what where would you
  • 00:06:49
    okay
  • 00:06:54
    yeah okay sorry I missed out that whole
  • 00:06:56
    just a swathe of really important the
  • 00:06:58
    sauce
  • 00:06:59
    obviously takes only exists when they're
  • 00:07:02
    for reading not for performing
  • 00:07:05
    so I guess I've been I found myself in
  • 00:07:08
    that somewhat reflective mood as I've
  • 00:07:09
    been planning this paper partly because
  • 00:07:12
    my partner has just moved out to
  • 00:07:14
    California for the start of a new
  • 00:07:15
    postdoc and I find that the sunshine is
  • 00:07:18
    most conducive to
  • 00:07:20
    spending time thinking about what
  • 00:07:22
    actually matters
  • 00:07:24
    something very impressive about constant
  • 00:07:26
    rain in England that stops you ever
  • 00:07:27
    thinking about anything
  • 00:07:29
    so I've been thinking about the little
  • 00:07:33
    corner of academia that I've been trying
  • 00:07:35
    to carve out for myself somewhere
  • 00:07:36
    between I suppose the cognitive and the
  • 00:07:38
    Medical Humanities and
  • 00:07:40
    I
  • 00:07:42
    guess I've not I really don't feel like
  • 00:07:45
    I have any answers for myself about how
  • 00:07:47
    to
  • 00:07:48
    move forward from this point necessarily
  • 00:07:51
    at the moment financially speaking the
  • 00:07:54
    the niche that I'm carving out doesn't
  • 00:07:56
    seem to be a particularly viable like I
  • 00:07:57
    didn't have a proper research grant at
  • 00:07:59
    the moment or stable research position
  • 00:08:03
    or any other academic position in fact
  • 00:08:05
    and who knows maybe if I'd stayed in the
  • 00:08:08
    in the better charted territory of
  • 00:08:11
    standard literary studies things would
  • 00:08:13
    have been different maybe not hardly any
  • 00:08:15
    money anywhere
  • 00:08:16
    but in any case I feel that that's not
  • 00:08:18
    really a relevant question for me
  • 00:08:19
    anymore because I simply couldn't have
  • 00:08:20
    have stayed doing the things that I I
  • 00:08:23
    thought literary criticism consisted of
  • 00:08:26
    as an undergraduate I
  • 00:08:28
    I found myself on the cusp of starting
  • 00:08:33
    my doctoral studies really
  • 00:08:35
    feeling something of a crisis of nerve I
  • 00:08:38
    guess
  • 00:08:39
    not knowing at all whether I wanted to
  • 00:08:41
    actually go on and do the doctorate and
  • 00:08:43
    my inveterately scientific family
  • 00:08:47
    plunged in at this point and said well
  • 00:08:49
    is there a question that you really want
  • 00:08:52
    to answer and if not maybe don't bother
  • 00:08:55
    so I realized that the
  • 00:09:00
    thesis proposal for which I've got the
  • 00:09:02
    funding was just actually filling me
  • 00:09:04
    with quite a lot of horror and I
  • 00:09:05
    couldn't really bear the idea of doing
  • 00:09:07
    it for three years
  • 00:09:09
    it was it was a pretty sort of
  • 00:09:11
    theoretically dense thing about
  • 00:09:15
    representations of space and modernism
  • 00:09:17
    and the relation between rhetorical and
  • 00:09:19
    philosophical traditions and I realized
  • 00:09:23
    I didn't actually have a whole lot about
  • 00:09:24
    any of that
  • 00:09:25
    and the question that I realized I did
  • 00:09:28
    want to answer was it was quite a simple
  • 00:09:30
    one it was just basically why is kefka's
  • 00:09:32
    writing so great why do people carry on
  • 00:09:34
    reading after after all this time what
  • 00:09:36
    makes it writing fascinating that kind
  • 00:09:38
    of a set of questions and I quickly
  • 00:09:42
    realized that in order to tackle this
  • 00:09:44
    type of question I needed to understand
  • 00:09:45
    a bit about how how the mind of the
  • 00:09:47
    reader works so what kind of interaction
  • 00:09:50
    is set up by the text between between
  • 00:09:53
    the the textual features and and and the
  • 00:09:55
    cognitive features
  • 00:09:56
    there was actually interestingly already
  • 00:09:59
    a kind of hint of of these types of
  • 00:10:02
    scientific leanings in in this original
  • 00:10:04
    proposal but it was not really going
  • 00:10:06
    anywhere particularly interesting
  • 00:10:08
    [Music]
  • 00:10:10
    so interdisciplinarity was then my
  • 00:10:14
    my way of
  • 00:10:17
    tackling the question that I actually
  • 00:10:19
    cared about and it had to be a kind of
  • 00:10:22
    thorough going into this clarity rather
  • 00:10:23
    than you know just a smattering of
  • 00:10:25
    demacia and mirror neurons to sex up the
  • 00:10:28
    surface of the argument it it sort of
  • 00:10:31
    had to be
  • 00:10:32
    fundamentally guiding where the weather
  • 00:10:34
    questions and the answers were going and
  • 00:10:35
    actually thinking about answers I guess
  • 00:10:37
    is is already a quite scientifically
  • 00:10:42
    inflected way of doing things because
  • 00:10:44
    humanity's frustratingly often have a
  • 00:10:46
    resistance the idea of answering
  • 00:10:48
    questions
  • 00:10:50
    so only in their most irritating
  • 00:10:53
    manifestations I guess
  • 00:10:55
    this was the paper that really changed
  • 00:10:59
    everything for me I decided to think
  • 00:11:01
    about the fact that it wasn't really
  • 00:11:03
    space that that interested me in texts
  • 00:11:06
    it was vision and the relationships
  • 00:11:08
    between vision and imagination and I'd
  • 00:11:10
    sort of started reading some of the
  • 00:11:12
    philosophy around
  • 00:11:14
    science of visual perception and then
  • 00:11:16
    came across this
  • 00:11:17
    this very it's a very kind of almost
  • 00:11:22
    over done quite bombastic very very hard
  • 00:11:26
    line paper about the
  • 00:11:28
    the failure of the idea of mental
  • 00:11:31
    representation to account for visual
  • 00:11:33
    perception so the idea is we don't see
  • 00:11:35
    things by building up a detailed picture
  • 00:11:38
    of the environment instead we engage
  • 00:11:40
    with it in a in a moment-to-moment and
  • 00:11:42
    active fashion and it's just completely
  • 00:11:44
    opened my eyes to what what it is about
  • 00:11:47
    kefka's style that is so effective at
  • 00:11:49
    least one of the important things it
  • 00:11:51
    gives us often a very very little very
  • 00:11:53
    minimal
  • 00:11:54
    description of
  • 00:11:56
    the scenes in which the characters
  • 00:11:59
    interact with each other and and yet
  • 00:12:02
    this doesn't seem to cause any problems
  • 00:12:03
    it in indeed is is positively effective
  • 00:12:08
    I think and my way of
  • 00:12:10
    getting a grasp on on that kind of
  • 00:12:13
    effectiveness was through the concept
  • 00:12:14
    like gradually moved towards of
  • 00:12:17
    cognitive realism so this is to begin
  • 00:12:21
    with the interaction between
  • 00:12:22
    the psychology as it with recordings of
  • 00:12:27
    processes as they exist in the mind of
  • 00:12:29
    the reader and as their
  • 00:12:31
    in the text or rather a vote
  • 00:12:33
    representation becomes a bit of a a
  • 00:12:35
    problematic term
  • 00:12:37
    so if there's a direct correspondence
  • 00:12:39
    between those things you can call it a
  • 00:12:40
    text cognitively realistic and then
  • 00:12:43
    there's also the third little cog in the
  • 00:12:45
    in the system which is the folk
  • 00:12:46
    psychology so the intuitions about how
  • 00:12:48
    the mind works which sometimes converge
  • 00:12:50
    with how it really works and quite often
  • 00:12:52
    don't so once you have the interactions
  • 00:12:54
    between those three things you can
  • 00:12:56
    actually start to to mix and quite
  • 00:12:57
    interestingly detailed hypotheses about
  • 00:13:00
    how textual features might create
  • 00:13:02
    certain effects or not and so the idea
  • 00:13:07
    was we've got there was basically his
  • 00:13:09
    style the CAF Geske style and if you
  • 00:13:11
    like is potentially quite compelling
  • 00:13:14
    because it corresponds to the realities
  • 00:13:16
    of how we see so not building up a
  • 00:13:18
    detailed picture of everything in the
  • 00:13:20
    space
  • 00:13:21
    but actually just engaging with stuff as
  • 00:13:23
    we need to in a rather fragmentary sense
  • 00:13:25
    so it's compelling for that reason
  • 00:13:27
    because there's a correspondence but
  • 00:13:28
    it's also unsettling because the the
  • 00:13:30
    folk psychology does not say that is all
  • 00:13:32
    about pictures in the head and
  • 00:13:34
    access to the whole pictorial lot of
  • 00:13:37
    detail
  • 00:13:38
    this image is just a kind of
  • 00:13:42
    configuration of the description that
  • 00:13:45
    you get at the beginning of my favorite
  • 00:13:47
    one of Kafka's text their process the
  • 00:13:49
    trial where basically this is all that
  • 00:13:52
    is described about the location of the
  • 00:13:54
    protagonists at the beginning but that's
  • 00:13:55
    kinda where you need and you really
  • 00:13:57
    don't know it just a lack of detail
  • 00:13:58
    until you start to pay attention to it
  • 00:14:03
    so
  • 00:14:04
    this may seem rather far away from
  • 00:14:07
    mental health
  • 00:14:08
    but I guess I wanted to try to be honest
  • 00:14:12
    about
  • 00:14:13
    about this idea of usefulness what its
  • 00:14:16
    essence is for me at the moment and that
  • 00:14:19
    brings me to the question of why 1yr
  • 00:14:22
    makes decisions about anything at all in
  • 00:14:24
    life including about which academics
  • 00:14:27
    things to study and I I think maybe
  • 00:14:30
    there are there are three main options
  • 00:14:32
    one is kind of queue stuff that you
  • 00:14:35
    think has a good chance of making you
  • 00:14:37
    happy quite soon
  • 00:14:39
    the second option is to
  • 00:14:42
    do things that may seem like they'll get
  • 00:14:45
    your highest status or will help you
  • 00:14:48
    tackle anxiety or feelings of low
  • 00:14:50
    self-esteem or something for which
  • 00:14:51
    actually don't do that and just make and
  • 00:14:53
    not making you feel worse about yourself
  • 00:14:55
    and then the third route is then is the
  • 00:14:59
    the idea of finding stuff that's that
  • 00:15:02
    gives you a sense of purpose and meaning
  • 00:15:04
    that's not too easily assailable
  • 00:15:06
    that you can just when you when you
  • 00:15:09
    encounter that question that we all
  • 00:15:10
    encounter from time to time not always
  • 00:15:13
    in the middle of the night why am i
  • 00:15:15
    bothering with any of this that there is
  • 00:15:16
    quite a an easy ready-made answer to
  • 00:15:18
    that
  • 00:15:19
    so I feel like doing the standard you
  • 00:15:23
    know creating new interpretations of
  • 00:15:25
    text that no one actually cared about
  • 00:15:27
    was was route to to which I was doing
  • 00:15:31
    for quite a while and
  • 00:15:33
    interdisciplinarity has been the way of
  • 00:15:36
    shifting towards
  • 00:15:37
    towards the happier kind of root 3 root
  • 00:15:40
    one is also really appealing especially
  • 00:15:41
    in California I I guess I haven't quite
  • 00:15:45
    worked out what that would consist of
  • 00:15:49
    so the
  • 00:15:55
    so instance polarity has have been the
  • 00:15:58
    means of making that transition to that
  • 00:16:00
    third region I think the way that it's
  • 00:16:02
    done that is by allowing me to
  • 00:16:04
    start to answer questions that I
  • 00:16:06
    couldn't with just a sort of mono
  • 00:16:08
    disciplinary framework I think this in
  • 00:16:10
    general is a good clue to the kind of
  • 00:16:12
    interdisciplinarity that is worth paying
  • 00:16:13
    attention to does it really do something
  • 00:16:15
    that you couldn't without
  • 00:16:18
    without all its constituent parts and so
  • 00:16:22
    the questions that I began to ask in the
  • 00:16:24
    doctorate or were questions then
  • 00:16:25
    increasingly not about literary meanings
  • 00:16:27
    but about literary effects or rather
  • 00:16:30
    interactions between literature and and
  • 00:16:32
    human minds and now if you like there's
  • 00:16:35
    these questions have become kind of
  • 00:16:37
    intermediate intermediate layers
  • 00:16:40
    towards a second set of questions which
  • 00:16:43
    are more about whether those whether
  • 00:16:47
    there is responses emotional or
  • 00:16:50
    interpretive or inferential
  • 00:16:52
    or in terms of mental imagery whether
  • 00:16:54
    those responses can have in turn
  • 00:16:56
    knock-on effects that might be
  • 00:16:58
    considered therapeutically valuable or
  • 00:17:00
    indeed harmful so of course mental
  • 00:17:04
    health is not the only kind of
  • 00:17:07
    the only candidate for ready-made
  • 00:17:11
    meaning I mean there are there are a
  • 00:17:12
    vast number of
  • 00:17:15
    problems questions things that need
  • 00:17:17
    tackling in this strange world of ours
  • 00:17:18
    but
  • 00:17:20
    this is the one that I have chosen to
  • 00:17:22
    care about and it's certainly a big
  • 00:17:24
    problem I I won't bore you with sort of
  • 00:17:26
    statistics about prevalence rates of
  • 00:17:29
    mental illness or eating disorders in
  • 00:17:31
    particular but they're high and they
  • 00:17:32
    seem to be growing and they cost
  • 00:17:35
    they cost governments and individuals a
  • 00:17:37
    lot of money and they make people
  • 00:17:38
    miserable and we we don't have a very
  • 00:17:41
    good handle on how to have to deal with
  • 00:17:43
    them so
  • 00:17:44
    the situation is serious enough that
  • 00:17:47
    bodies like the World Health
  • 00:17:48
    Organization have been saying now in
  • 00:17:50
    recent years we need to be taking a more
  • 00:17:53
    multidisciplinary approach to this stuff
  • 00:17:54
    we need to in particular take cultural
  • 00:17:56
    factors more seriously and
  • 00:17:59
    so this the current project of mine I
  • 00:18:02
    guess is an attempt to to respond to
  • 00:18:04
    that invitation than to
  • 00:18:06
    to investigate what the role of culture
  • 00:18:09
    might be in in this specific case of
  • 00:18:11
    disordered eating so there are
  • 00:18:14
    systematic logical reasons for choosing
  • 00:18:16
    eating disorders and I'll come to those
  • 00:18:18
    in a moment but I guess to be honest the
  • 00:18:21
    primary reason is that I used to have
  • 00:18:22
    one the crisis pre-doctoral that I
  • 00:18:26
    mentioned was partly just a fact a
  • 00:18:29
    function of being very ill and not
  • 00:18:31
    really having the ability to to get an
  • 00:18:34
    overview of what I was doing not having
  • 00:18:36
    energy to
  • 00:18:38
    contemplate you know three years of
  • 00:18:40
    quite isolating and draining work on
  • 00:18:42
    something that I didn't care about and
  • 00:18:46
    happily I was sort of halfway through
  • 00:18:48
    the doctorate I started to get better
  • 00:18:50
    just in time to realize what a mess the
  • 00:18:52
    thesis was not quite in time to be able
  • 00:18:55
    to deal entirely with the mess but I got
  • 00:18:57
    there in the end with the revisions of
  • 00:18:59
    the book and I started to write a blog
  • 00:19:03
    for Psychology Today
  • 00:19:04
    which was from initially a very sort of
  • 00:19:07
    autobiographical thing charting their
  • 00:19:09
    process of my recovery and became more
  • 00:19:13
    about trying to diffuse scientific and
  • 00:19:15
    personal perspectives on
  • 00:19:17
    disordered eating
  • 00:19:19
    and this really has become the most
  • 00:19:22
    important professional or
  • 00:19:25
    semi-professional thing that I do I
  • 00:19:27
    engage with a lot of readers on an
  • 00:19:29
    almost daily basis and I feel that this
  • 00:19:32
    is a way in which I can actually make a
  • 00:19:33
    difference to people in a way that
  • 00:19:35
    probably well certainly so far my
  • 00:19:37
    academic work has not
  • 00:19:39
    and in a way looking back it seems
  • 00:19:42
    strange to me that it took so long but I
  • 00:19:45
    a few years into my first postdoc
  • 00:19:48
    position I started to think about
  • 00:19:51
    well I suppose mainly it was because I
  • 00:19:53
    was spending such a lot of time on the
  • 00:19:54
    blog I thought maybe actually I can find
  • 00:19:58
    some way of making it a legitimate
  • 00:20:00
    academic activity somehow so I don't
  • 00:20:02
    feel that you know there's lots of time
  • 00:20:04
    being siphoned off into this thing that
  • 00:20:06
    is not
  • 00:20:08
    professionally advancing he so partly
  • 00:20:11
    was that and partly just wanting to put
  • 00:20:13
    together different areas of my quite
  • 00:20:15
    disparate
  • 00:20:15
    but I started to think about about the
  • 00:20:18
    connections between between all that
  • 00:20:20
    eating disorders stuff and the
  • 00:20:21
    literature and then this gave rise to
  • 00:20:24
    the the article that Dan mentioned which
  • 00:20:27
    was
  • 00:20:29
    which was prompted by Kafka short story
  • 00:20:32
    a Hunger artist so this is the story
  • 00:20:34
    about a man who is one of the
  • 00:20:37
    nineteenth-century hunger artists who
  • 00:20:39
    fast for other people's entertainment he
  • 00:20:43
    got used to having big crowds watching
  • 00:20:46
    him do his long fasts and the fast got
  • 00:20:48
    longer and longer and more and more
  • 00:20:49
    impressive and then gradually the people
  • 00:20:50
    started to melt away and would just rush
  • 00:20:53
    past his cage to see the animals who
  • 00:20:55
    were doing exciting tricks and generally
  • 00:20:57
    much more interesting to watch and yet
  • 00:20:59
    he couldn't stop fasting and
  • 00:21:01
    eventually he came close to death and
  • 00:21:05
    the last word he spoke to thee over see
  • 00:21:07
    it had been looking after him were a
  • 00:21:10
    kind of
  • 00:21:12
    resistance of admiration they said you
  • 00:21:15
    shouldn't admire me because the only
  • 00:21:17
    problem was I could never find any food
  • 00:21:18
    that I wanted to eat otherwise I
  • 00:21:19
    wouldn't have lasted and then he dies
  • 00:21:21
    and then his cage is swept clean and in
  • 00:21:24
    the cages put a
  • 00:21:25
    wonderful lisam glowing with health
  • 00:21:28
    panther who everyone flops to see and
  • 00:21:31
    the end
  • 00:21:34
    so this is
  • 00:21:37
    my response to this story in the article
  • 00:21:40
    was sort of guided by a an initial
  • 00:21:42
    reaction about the oddity of the fact
  • 00:21:45
    that although he's called The Hunger
  • 00:21:46
    artists and in German poem as a verb
  • 00:21:49
    means to fast although the now and is
  • 00:21:52
    also hunger so he's described as The
  • 00:21:55
    Hunger artist throughout but him being
  • 00:21:56
    hungry is never mentioned even though he
  • 00:21:59
    eventually starves to death and you I
  • 00:22:00
    found it was as soon as I realized this
  • 00:22:03
    I was interested that I'd not notice it
  • 00:22:05
    before and use it as a basis for
  • 00:22:07
    reflection reflecting upon the potential
  • 00:22:09
    psychological effects of this text more
  • 00:22:11
    generally and
  • 00:22:13
    using the framework of cognitive realism
  • 00:22:15
    to try and come to some conclusions
  • 00:22:18
    about that but for me almost the center
  • 00:22:21
    of the of the argument or one of the
  • 00:22:23
    main propelling factors was the the
  • 00:22:26
    critical literature that I came across
  • 00:22:28
    in relation to this piece
  • 00:22:31
    there's there's it's just to me it's all
  • 00:22:35
    absolutely falling into Kafka's trap
  • 00:22:38
    so people are taking the epithet The
  • 00:22:42
    Hunger artists and assuming firstly that
  • 00:22:45
    there isn't that he is a genuine artist
  • 00:22:47
    that he is creating and actually you
  • 00:22:50
    know perfectible and an admirable work
  • 00:22:51
    of art which is to my mind not not
  • 00:22:55
    intimated in the text at all then all
  • 00:22:58
    kinds of
  • 00:23:00
    morally weighted concepts like
  • 00:23:03
    self-control here combined with purity
  • 00:23:05
    are imposed onto the text which again
  • 00:23:08
    are not given within it and in my mind
  • 00:23:10
    incompatible with it
  • 00:23:12
    then you get even more problematic stuff
  • 00:23:14
    about how he's you know it's great that
  • 00:23:17
    the children come and watch him because
  • 00:23:19
    they may one day we're still fasting to
  • 00:23:20
    its former glory and we should admire
  • 00:23:22
    people who are all spirit and no flesh
  • 00:23:24
    they're just there's this very
  • 00:23:26
    unreflective
  • 00:23:29
    responses to this this gap that Kafka is
  • 00:23:33
    created between the title and the
  • 00:23:37
    and the the rest of the textual content
  • 00:23:39
    which has nothing to do with artistry
  • 00:23:41
    and of course then as the popular move
  • 00:23:45
    of just really returning everything to
  • 00:23:47
    being about representation and about
  • 00:23:49
    text reality which it's also kind of
  • 00:23:51
    tedious
  • 00:23:52
    [Music]
  • 00:23:54
    so
  • 00:23:55
    if you think I mean probably not many
  • 00:23:58
    you know vulnerable teenagers or
  • 00:24:00
    whatever would ever read this stuff but
  • 00:24:01
    if they were to it probably wouldn't be
  • 00:24:03
    particularly good for them and I suppose
  • 00:24:05
    my yeah my prime motivator then was was
  • 00:24:09
    a kind of anger about this actually an
  • 00:24:11
    anger I guess relates back to that third
  • 00:24:14
    root of you know having purpose and
  • 00:24:17
    meaning in one's academic pursuits anger
  • 00:24:21
    is is useful if it as long as it's
  • 00:24:22
    combined with some other stuff in you
  • 00:24:24
    know just thinking thinking through the
  • 00:24:26
    the ramifications of what it means to to
  • 00:24:29
    try and do more more good than harm with
  • 00:24:31
    our our academic research and writing
  • 00:24:36
    so this was where where the whole thing
  • 00:24:38
    started and then the next step was to
  • 00:24:40
    try and do some more empirical
  • 00:24:44
    follow-up and in this kind of direction
  • 00:24:47
    so I I got a six-month
  • 00:24:50
    knowledge exchange fellowship I think
  • 00:24:53
    knowledge exchange is probably not one
  • 00:24:54
    of the academic buzzwords that has made
  • 00:24:55
    it across the Atlantic so far the idea
  • 00:24:58
    is public engagement or what we used to
  • 00:25:01
    call so in order to transfer is a kind
  • 00:25:03
    of top-down you know we dictate our
  • 00:25:06
    wisdom to the general public and
  • 00:25:09
    knowledge exchange then tries to make
  • 00:25:10
    the relationship more reciprocal so it's
  • 00:25:12
    about getting things back from
  • 00:25:16
    non-academic partners or collaborators
  • 00:25:18
    as well as giving to them so I start up
  • 00:25:21
    a partnership with
  • 00:25:23
    with the main UK eating disorders
  • 00:25:26
    charity beat and
  • 00:25:29
    yeah as I say it was only six months and
  • 00:25:31
    probably the most significant lessons I
  • 00:25:34
    learned this collaboration was that
  • 00:25:37
    whatever you think you can do in six
  • 00:25:39
    months you can probably do about half of
  • 00:25:40
    that much and especially if you try to
  • 00:25:43
    do empirical work there's hardly any
  • 00:25:44
    time to anything but the main thing that
  • 00:25:46
    we did accomplish was to run a major
  • 00:25:49
    survey asking people about the
  • 00:25:51
    relationships they perceived between
  • 00:25:53
    between their reading habits on the one
  • 00:25:55
    hand and their mental health on the
  • 00:25:57
    other because of where we advertise it
  • 00:25:59
    was primarily responded to by people
  • 00:26:02
    with a personal history of disordered
  • 00:26:04
    eating but not exclusively and I was
  • 00:26:06
    just I was absolutely delighted and
  • 00:26:08
    amazed by the number of responses that
  • 00:26:10
    we had this was not a there's not a sort
  • 00:26:12
    of simple you know ten part ten question
  • 00:26:16
    questionnaires six-year-old questions
  • 00:26:18
    and lots of space for free responses as
  • 00:26:21
    well as multiple-choice stuff and we got
  • 00:26:25
    885 responses all together which
  • 00:26:29
    773 were people with a personal history
  • 00:26:32
    and
  • 00:26:33
    just a really that's a really quite
  • 00:26:36
    touching amount of reflection and
  • 00:26:38
    honesty that went into the responses so
  • 00:26:40
    it's been an extremely rich dataset to
  • 00:26:43
    work with and I'm really I'm only
  • 00:26:46
    beginning to scratch the surface of what
  • 00:26:47
    I think it can maybe start to teach us
  • 00:26:49
    about
  • 00:26:51
    about these this realm of interactions
  • 00:26:54
    but in the rest of the talk I'll just
  • 00:26:56
    give you a bit of a sense of the kind of
  • 00:26:58
    things that I'm learning from it
  • 00:27:00
    [Music]
  • 00:27:02
    but first I'll backtrack briefly and
  • 00:27:04
    just give you a couple of pointers as to
  • 00:27:08
    why I think
  • 00:27:09
    eating disorders and and fictional
  • 00:27:12
    reading may make sense as a as a
  • 00:27:14
    juxtaposition
  • 00:27:15
    taking out the personal factors for now
  • 00:27:18
    the first as I mentioned is is the
  • 00:27:21
    relationship between culture and
  • 00:27:24
    eating disorders
  • 00:27:25
    they are they are probably them at the
  • 00:27:28
    most obviously obvious case of cultural
  • 00:27:31
    inflection in the sense that you know
  • 00:27:34
    the the ways in which you're encouraged
  • 00:27:36
    to think about body image and
  • 00:27:39
    and diet and exercise and all these
  • 00:27:41
    things are fairly sort of monolithically
  • 00:27:48
    inflicted on us by you know what we
  • 00:27:52
    might call the mass media
  • 00:27:54
    this is probably getting more true also
  • 00:27:57
    with other mental disorders now I gather
  • 00:28:00
    from talking to two undergraduates that
  • 00:28:02
    the same kind of things could similarly
  • 00:28:05
    be said of depression certainly of
  • 00:28:06
    self-harm that you know like Instagram
  • 00:28:09
    is full of the chic of all these kind of
  • 00:28:11
    things increasingly but
  • 00:28:12
    but it's always been the case of this
  • 00:28:15
    order teaching that there is this kind
  • 00:28:16
    of bout of of stuff that makes things
  • 00:28:19
    difficult and and so this is I think one
  • 00:28:24
    one way of conceiving of the possible
  • 00:28:28
    role of fiction as opposed to those
  • 00:28:30
    other
  • 00:28:31
    there's other manifestations of culture
  • 00:28:34
    fiction might be doing something rather
  • 00:28:37
    different
  • 00:28:38
    so this this respondent who this was
  • 00:28:41
    just an in response to the final
  • 00:28:43
    question of the survey which is is there
  • 00:28:45
    anything else you'd like to tell us
  • 00:28:47
    talks about books and in particular
  • 00:28:50
    fiction providing a transitional and
  • 00:28:53
    creative space for expressing her own
  • 00:28:55
    feelings
  • 00:28:57
    offering a
  • 00:28:59
    potential to go beyond her own
  • 00:29:01
    experience and explore different
  • 00:29:02
    possibilities without connecting from
  • 00:29:05
    reality entirely
  • 00:29:06
    so the therapeutic potential of fiction
  • 00:29:10
    reading is made clear there and seems to
  • 00:29:13
    be set up in opposition to you know the
  • 00:29:15
    kind of stuff that that other
  • 00:29:18
    manifestations of culture might provide
  • 00:29:21
    of course then you've also got the flip
  • 00:29:23
    side which is that you know there is no
  • 00:29:26
    hard and fast line between cultural
  • 00:29:30
    artifacts of one kind or another and
  • 00:29:31
    books can be just as bad as anything
  • 00:29:34
    else so the second persons is talking
  • 00:29:36
    about
  • 00:29:37
    fiction specifically about eating
  • 00:29:40
    disorders so with a character a main
  • 00:29:41
    character who has
  • 00:29:43
    anorexia I think in this case
  • 00:29:45
    and she talks about how she you cease
  • 00:29:49
    eating the sort of fiction to to
  • 00:29:53
    basically learn how to do the eating
  • 00:29:55
    sort of better and once she found the
  • 00:29:57
    prayer anorexia community online she
  • 00:29:59
    knew non beneath the books but they're
  • 00:30:00
    basically equivalent
  • 00:30:03
    so that's one the cultural side of
  • 00:30:05
    things is one kind of
  • 00:30:08
    motivation for looking at these things
  • 00:30:10
    in interaction with each other the
  • 00:30:12
    second is the the very significant role
  • 00:30:15
    of embodiment in in eating disorders
  • 00:30:18
    even more so than perhaps with many
  • 00:30:20
    other mental health conditions you know
  • 00:30:23
    I guess that the role of embodiment is
  • 00:30:26
    different amongst the different soldiers
  • 00:30:27
    isn't perhaps the most clear in anorexia
  • 00:30:29
    where starvation just has a very
  • 00:30:31
    systemic and profound set of effects on
  • 00:30:34
    on the way that the mind works but the
  • 00:30:38
    same can be said of bulimia with the
  • 00:30:40
    kind of binging and purging cycles that
  • 00:30:43
    develop or with compulsive overeating
  • 00:30:46
    binge eating and so on as soon as the as
  • 00:30:50
    soon as the embody system starts to
  • 00:30:51
    break down there are knock-on effects on
  • 00:30:54
    psychological functioning
  • 00:30:56
    so this is this has a couple of
  • 00:31:02
    consequences that are irrelevant here
  • 00:31:04
    one of them is
  • 00:31:05
    the
  • 00:31:07
    the potential for
  • 00:31:09
    because because embodiment and the
  • 00:31:12
    simple physical deterioration are so
  • 00:31:14
    significant we can actually identify a
  • 00:31:18
    potentially important role for things
  • 00:31:20
    that change attitudes that might then
  • 00:31:22
    lead to changes in behavior like
  • 00:31:24
    basically the the initial stages of
  • 00:31:26
    recovery from anorexia are not
  • 00:31:27
    complicated all you need to do is just
  • 00:31:29
    eat more consistently and whatever gives
  • 00:31:31
    you motivation to do that in the initial
  • 00:31:33
    phase will help you along a lot so if we
  • 00:31:38
    think that there might be the potential
  • 00:31:39
    for fiction to to play a role in
  • 00:31:41
    changing attitudes and
  • 00:31:43
    creating the possibility for behaviors
  • 00:31:45
    then that could be quite significant
  • 00:31:47
    whereas something like depression
  • 00:31:49
    perhaps the the behavioral changes have
  • 00:31:51
    a less a less direct and immediate
  • 00:31:53
    effect
  • 00:31:54
    and then the other the other sort of
  • 00:31:57
    much more general point is about these
  • 00:31:59
    these feedback structures
  • 00:32:02
    this is
  • 00:32:04
    an adapted version of them of a
  • 00:32:07
    cognitive behavioral
  • 00:32:09
    model of a restrictive eating disorder
  • 00:32:12
    so here you see the the interactions
  • 00:32:14
    that can develop between thought
  • 00:32:17
    patterns and
  • 00:32:18
    behaviors like eating or exercising and
  • 00:32:21
    body weight and then mood and social
  • 00:32:24
    interactions the whole the whole lots
  • 00:32:25
    are and probably there should be lots
  • 00:32:27
    more areas as well but there are complex
  • 00:32:32
    interactions that can develop here in in
  • 00:32:34
    this case the
  • 00:32:36
    the states in the boxes are not weighted
  • 00:32:39
    so this could be
  • 00:32:42
    this could be understood as simply
  • 00:32:45
    representing the situation of a healthy
  • 00:32:47
    person there won't be the perturbations
  • 00:32:50
    will be small the mutual effects will
  • 00:32:53
    balance each other out but then if you
  • 00:32:55
    look at the the kind of the weighted
  • 00:32:56
    version where you've got disturbances
  • 00:32:58
    you've got over influence of you know
  • 00:33:01
    preoccupation with with body shape and
  • 00:33:03
    weight for example which will lead to
  • 00:33:05
    the restriction and to other
  • 00:33:07
    compensating behaviors which will push
  • 00:33:10
    down the weight which will increase the
  • 00:33:12
    obsessiveness and the withdrawal and you
  • 00:33:14
    can see how easily the
  • 00:33:17
    the positive feedback here so positive
  • 00:33:20
    feedback in the sense of a self
  • 00:33:21
    amplifying loop how quickly that
  • 00:33:24
    develops in someone who is vulnerable to
  • 00:33:27
    illness or already ill so if we have
  • 00:33:30
    that basic model then of the of the kind
  • 00:33:32
    of mind-body interactions then and we
  • 00:33:35
    can create a very simplified version of
  • 00:33:36
    it here
  • 00:33:38
    then this is
  • 00:33:40
    not a great leap to start to think about
  • 00:33:43
    how culture might start to play a role
  • 00:33:46
    how it might not only provide inputs
  • 00:33:50
    into the system but then
  • 00:33:52
    more integrally actually function as
  • 00:33:54
    part of the system that is is
  • 00:33:56
    serving both of course and those effect
  • 00:33:58
    and you know helping drive this leap and
  • 00:34:01
    certainly these
  • 00:34:04
    these kinds of feedback interactions are
  • 00:34:07
    they come up all the time in the in the
  • 00:34:09
    survey responses people talking about
  • 00:34:12
    how
  • 00:34:13
    feeling worse on a particular day makes
  • 00:34:16
    the move likely to engage with fictional
  • 00:34:18
    characters in a in a particularly you
  • 00:34:20
    know eating a sort of filtered way and
  • 00:34:22
    how that makes them turn worse this
  • 00:34:24
    comes up with in terms of emotional
  • 00:34:27
    engagement with with the characters in
  • 00:34:28
    terms of the way that the characters
  • 00:34:31
    bodies are described
  • 00:34:33
    in the very specific terms also of just
  • 00:34:36
    trying to get tips about how to not eat
  • 00:34:39
    or how to rid oneself of the food that
  • 00:34:41
    one has eaten and so there's lots of
  • 00:34:44
    lots of these loops at play here and
  • 00:34:50
    so I think
  • 00:34:52
    this provides quite a strong basis for
  • 00:34:54
    for starting to explore in greater depth
  • 00:34:57
    you know what is it that
  • 00:35:02
    gosh that's a very busy slide sorry
  • 00:35:05
    what are the constituents
  • 00:35:08
    what are the reasons about ships of
  • 00:35:10
    cause and effect that they're important
  • 00:35:12
    here so this is just I I wanted to try
  • 00:35:15
    and give just some examples of the
  • 00:35:17
    quantitative side of the analysis I've
  • 00:35:18
    done so I've identified just on the
  • 00:35:20
    basis of me sitting down and and trying
  • 00:35:23
    to basically close read the qualitative
  • 00:35:25
    results here I've identified 19
  • 00:35:28
    different types of feedback positive
  • 00:35:30
    feedback
  • 00:35:31
    so self amplifying times most of which
  • 00:35:35
    are end up being
  • 00:35:38
    exacerbating the meeting is sort of a
  • 00:35:40
    not all
  • 00:35:42
    and on the the right-hand column and you
  • 00:35:45
    can see how many examples of testimony
  • 00:35:48
    from the survey respondents are given
  • 00:35:50
    for each type so I'm sorry is they're
  • 00:35:54
    not helping but it is kind of off the
  • 00:35:55
    side of the screen a little bit but they
  • 00:35:58
    you can see examples here just a very
  • 00:36:02
    basic example like if I feel worse then
  • 00:36:05
    I read a certain kind of book and then I
  • 00:36:07
    feel worse again and then
  • 00:36:11
    everything goes into a downward spiral
  • 00:36:13
    of a vicious circle or conversely it
  • 00:36:16
    could be the opposite and reading could
  • 00:36:18
    could be part of a positive feedback
  • 00:36:20
    loop in and actually positive direction
  • 00:36:23
    then there are there are lots of
  • 00:36:26
    examples of how mood and self-esteem and
  • 00:36:28
    body image interact with the reading
  • 00:36:30
    process
  • 00:36:31
    lots also along with as I they are self
  • 00:36:34
    triggering so I was really quite shocked
  • 00:36:38
    by the number of people who have
  • 00:36:40
    completely lucid awareness of the fact
  • 00:36:43
    that they they seek out text that they
  • 00:36:45
    know are going to make them feel worse
  • 00:36:46
    and indeed they do and then they get
  • 00:36:49
    worse and then they look out more text
  • 00:36:51
    could be or even more stuck in that
  • 00:36:53
    mindset so
  • 00:36:54
    lots of examples of this kind of thing
  • 00:36:57
    going on
  • 00:36:59
    then there are also fewer but some
  • 00:37:03
    examples of negative feedbacks there's a
  • 00:37:05
    small table on the right
  • 00:37:06
    are examples of where a new input
  • 00:37:11
    actually then
  • 00:37:15
    breaks into the feedback loop and
  • 00:37:17
    creates a if you like a calming effect
  • 00:37:21
    so
  • 00:37:24
    in the case of in the therapy suitcase
  • 00:37:27
    then prevents this vicious circle of
  • 00:37:31
    feeling bad reading in some way feeling
  • 00:37:34
    worse
  • 00:37:34
    so this these examples so
  • 00:37:38
    for example one person who talks about
  • 00:37:40
    when she's attempted to stop to stop
  • 00:37:43
    eating in the anorexic context she she
  • 00:37:47
    knows what kind of books will help her
  • 00:37:49
    to eat so she goes and looks at them
  • 00:37:51
    then she feels less anxious and then she
  • 00:37:53
    can she's more like he's failed to be
  • 00:37:55
    like that kind of thing is obviously
  • 00:37:56
    very relevant to how he might get
  • 00:37:58
    conceived of the
  • 00:38:00
    the role of of fiction reading in
  • 00:38:03
    therapy and I've given just a couple of
  • 00:38:05
    of courses examples here
  • 00:38:08
    both for
  • 00:38:10
    negative feedback in in the first
  • 00:38:13
    example feeling low reading men feeling
  • 00:38:16
    better and
  • 00:38:18
    then positive feedback in the in the
  • 00:38:20
    second example
  • 00:38:23
    feeling bad
  • 00:38:29
    reading feeling more depressed and
  • 00:38:32
    then actually
  • 00:38:35
    part of the eating disorder resistance
  • 00:38:37
    to the reading being that it's just
  • 00:38:39
    about being physically still and so
  • 00:38:41
    reading then also being so sorry yeah I
  • 00:38:45
    really know I messed up they expected
  • 00:38:46
    that so the person was saying that the
  • 00:38:48
    reading can be good but when whenever
  • 00:38:50
    she starts to read beating sort of kicks
  • 00:38:52
    in and says actually you know being lazy
  • 00:38:55
    by sitting reading you should be
  • 00:38:56
    exercising so through the positive
  • 00:38:57
    effects of the reading are prevented
  • 00:38:59
    from from happening and I think I mean I
  • 00:39:05
    hope I
  • 00:39:06
    really want to make sure that
  • 00:39:09
    for me eating disorders are just one
  • 00:39:11
    they are just a case study they're not
  • 00:39:13
    meant to be the whole the whole story
  • 00:39:15
    when it comes to thinking about
  • 00:39:18
    about the role of
  • 00:39:20
    fiction reading in in health and I think
  • 00:39:23
    I
  • 00:39:24
    think feedback is a good is a good
  • 00:39:27
    concept for
  • 00:39:28
    broadening our games beyond eating
  • 00:39:32
    disorders because we can think about
  • 00:39:33
    feedback in in so many of the other
  • 00:39:35
    processes that are part of reading from
  • 00:39:38
    from the the just the perceptual and
  • 00:39:41
    cognitive act of reading any text so
  • 00:39:44
    there's this interesting work that shows
  • 00:39:45
    that kind of discourse level of
  • 00:39:48
    interpretation actually can have direct
  • 00:39:51
    effects back on the on the visual
  • 00:39:53
    processing level so from that kind of
  • 00:39:57
    more low level
  • 00:40:00
    processing realm then we also see
  • 00:40:03
    feedback at high levels and I this is my
  • 00:40:05
    sort of preliminary tend to think about
  • 00:40:07
    how fiction might differ from nonfiction
  • 00:40:10
    in terms of its feedback structures the
  • 00:40:13
    idea being that perhaps the greatest
  • 00:40:16
    sort of referential purpose of non
  • 00:40:19
    fictional texts the fact there they're
  • 00:40:21
    pointing to something beyond the text
  • 00:40:22
    that is
  • 00:40:23
    relatively
  • 00:40:26
    relatively clear-cut and not subject to
  • 00:40:28
    a million different interpretive
  • 00:40:29
    possibilities might mean that there's
  • 00:40:31
    more negative feedback where so if you
  • 00:40:33
    if you go down a stupid train of
  • 00:40:36
    interpretive thought then you'll be
  • 00:40:38
    probably brought back quite quite
  • 00:40:39
    quickly by just something else that
  • 00:40:42
    comes next in the text that makes clear
  • 00:40:43
    that was stupid whereas in the fictional
  • 00:40:45
    context because because the
  • 00:40:47
    possibilities of Association are so much
  • 00:40:49
    broader there might be a much greater
  • 00:40:51
    possibility for for positive feedback to
  • 00:40:54
    take in and to go unchecked especially
  • 00:40:57
    in in solitary reading which is
  • 00:40:59
    obviously how we tend to do it now if
  • 00:41:01
    you're reading in a group you might have
  • 00:41:03
    other people come chiming in and saying
  • 00:41:04
    actually no that doesn't make sense
  • 00:41:05
    because that's why is that whereas you
  • 00:41:08
    reading on your own and these
  • 00:41:10
    interpretive loops can perhaps kind of
  • 00:41:12
    spiral out of control in the way that I
  • 00:41:13
    think happens with those critical
  • 00:41:16
    responses to Kafka's story they're just
  • 00:41:17
    they're kind of off in their own world
  • 00:41:19
    of interpretive
  • 00:41:20
    self-indulgence if you'd like and and
  • 00:41:23
    they're not really anything much to do
  • 00:41:24
    the text anymore
  • 00:41:26
    so there we can perhaps think about
  • 00:41:28
    about those structures as relevant to
  • 00:41:31
    the study of
  • 00:41:33
    of literature and also definitely of
  • 00:41:35
    performative arts as well
  • 00:41:39
    so I said I would I
  • 00:41:42
    would say a little bit about their
  • 00:41:44
    current safely research it does seem
  • 00:41:46
    because there are such obvious reasons
  • 00:41:47
    why why there might be relevance of this
  • 00:41:49
    kind it does seem strange to me that
  • 00:41:51
    more research hasn't been done
  • 00:41:53
    but unfortunately a lot more
  • 00:41:55
    bibliotherapy as it's often called is
  • 00:41:57
    practiced and it is
  • 00:41:59
    investigated so this is just one example
  • 00:42:02
    of a kind of commercial manifestation of
  • 00:42:05
    compare therapy School of Life in London
  • 00:42:08
    there to be fair they're not actually
  • 00:42:09
    claiming that their video therapy will
  • 00:42:11
    solve your mental health problems but
  • 00:42:14
    they're charging a good amount for
  • 00:42:16
    sessions with busier therapists who are
  • 00:42:18
    not trained in anything other than they
  • 00:42:19
    like books and
  • 00:42:21
    it seems to me a little bit problematic
  • 00:42:26
    psychiatrists Jonathan Dexter's as
  • 00:42:28
    talked about the unfortunate nature of
  • 00:42:31
    this
  • 00:42:34
    priority of belief over
  • 00:42:37
    rigorous research and
  • 00:42:39
    as I said at the beginning like there
  • 00:42:41
    are there are obvious reasons why
  • 00:42:43
    particularly people who are invested in
  • 00:42:45
    the study of which I might want to
  • 00:42:46
    believe that it can be helpful but
  • 00:42:49
    as I think I've already made clear there
  • 00:42:52
    and they're also reason to think that
  • 00:42:54
    helpfulness is not all it can do and
  • 00:42:57
    also beyond the basic question of good
  • 00:42:59
    or harm what are what are the mechanisms
  • 00:43:01
    this is something that there is really
  • 00:43:03
    very little evidence on there's quite a
  • 00:43:05
    bit of empirical evidence of efficacy of
  • 00:43:09
    self-help there via therapy so just
  • 00:43:11
    reading relevant self-help books
  • 00:43:14
    but even there the evidence on
  • 00:43:16
    mechanisms how how this is actually
  • 00:43:19
    helping is pretty minimal and when you
  • 00:43:20
    come to creative there do therapy or
  • 00:43:22
    using fiction or poetry or drama
  • 00:43:26
    the the evidence is very slim indeed
  • 00:43:29
    there's quite
  • 00:43:30
    few very well-known or classic theories
  • 00:43:32
    of
  • 00:43:33
    the supposed mechanisms
  • 00:43:36
    but there's not really any evidence for
  • 00:43:39
    any of them except the last one there
  • 00:43:41
    are there are some experiments have been
  • 00:43:43
    done to suggest that
  • 00:43:46
    the issue in reducing defensiveness and
  • 00:43:49
    gaining insight and then committing to
  • 00:43:51
    change might be important but really a
  • 00:43:56
    lot of work still needs to be done and a
  • 00:44:00
    characteristic of of a lot of the
  • 00:44:03
    theorizing in this area is that very
  • 00:44:05
    broad
  • 00:44:06
    concepts are bandied around without much
  • 00:44:08
    attempt to
  • 00:44:10
    to define what what is meant by them
  • 00:44:13
    this this paper is actually a good
  • 00:44:14
    example this is a
  • 00:44:15
    systematic review of the evidence for
  • 00:44:19
    creative video therapy in developmental
  • 00:44:21
    issues amongst adolescents
  • 00:44:24
    it's so it's doing something systematic
  • 00:44:27
    to them when it comes suspect anything
  • 00:44:28
    about the about the mechanisms you know
  • 00:44:30
    got things like reframing and empathy
  • 00:44:32
    and identification which which are big
  • 00:44:35
    things that have have been have started
  • 00:44:38
    to be studied properly in in the
  • 00:44:40
    cognitive literary realm but really are
  • 00:44:43
    not unpacked at all here and this is one
  • 00:44:45
    reason why I think bringing CSI into
  • 00:44:48
    things could be really useful because we
  • 00:44:50
    have we can start to think about how
  • 00:44:52
    empathy related system sympathy and to
  • 00:44:54
    trust and to all these other kinds of
  • 00:44:58
    terms that can remain very very vague in
  • 00:45:01
    moralistic if we if we let them
  • 00:45:03
    [Music]
  • 00:45:05
    so this was just I will I think I'll cut
  • 00:45:10
    this short but this is just a bit of
  • 00:45:12
    evidence about the potential of these
  • 00:45:14
    texts to do harm as well as good and so
  • 00:45:16
    why we should resist those easy
  • 00:45:18
    assumptions and somewhat slightly more
  • 00:45:22
    detailed findings on these four
  • 00:45:23
    dimensions
  • 00:45:24
    which I chose us the sort of key ones
  • 00:45:27
    that might be relevant to investigate
  • 00:45:28
    you can see here basically the very same
  • 00:45:33
    difference between the section about
  • 00:45:34
    eating disorders where the vast majority
  • 00:45:37
    of people report very negative effects
  • 00:45:40
    from reading it on all form dimensions
  • 00:45:42
    and then the much more mixed picture
  • 00:45:43
    when people talking about the effects
  • 00:45:45
    think they prefer to read that's not
  • 00:45:47
    about eating disorders where there's
  • 00:45:49
    very strong effects on mood in the
  • 00:45:51
    positive direction but the other things
  • 00:45:52
    are a slightly more variable
  • 00:45:56
    as you might expect and I just I include
  • 00:46:00
    this great just to show that you know
  • 00:46:02
    the potential for harm applies
  • 00:46:04
    absolutely to the to the Canon you know
  • 00:46:07
    whether it comes in Austin or in the
  • 00:46:10
    Twilight series or whatever it's the
  • 00:46:12
    idea that you should when you're unhappy
  • 00:46:16
    stop eating can be a dangerous one if
  • 00:46:19
    you're susceptible to it for whatever
  • 00:46:20
    reason beforehand
  • 00:46:23
    and this was then are kind of as if
  • 00:46:26
    they're very preliminary attempt to
  • 00:46:27
    think about mechanisms so people are
  • 00:46:30
    reporting these are these are multiple
  • 00:46:32
    choice so
  • 00:46:34
    people could
  • 00:46:37
    select multiple options here but you can
  • 00:46:40
    see that like all of them seem to have
  • 00:46:42
    some potential relevance and I think it
  • 00:46:45
    just shows that there's there's really a
  • 00:46:46
    lot more to do in terms of getting past
  • 00:46:49
    this this basic theoretical assumption
  • 00:46:51
    that the goal of reading should be to
  • 00:46:54
    increase insight which to me is
  • 00:46:58
    it's bound to be sort of questionable in
  • 00:47:02
    any realm but I think in the in the case
  • 00:47:03
    of eating disorders it's particularly so
  • 00:47:05
    perhaps because a lot of people myself
  • 00:47:08
    included
  • 00:47:10
    manifests in the past and manifest a
  • 00:47:13
    very high degree of insight into their
  • 00:47:15
    condition but total inability to act on
  • 00:47:17
    my insight and so maybe maybe giving
  • 00:47:20
    insight into the condition which would
  • 00:47:22
    be promoted most effectively by reading
  • 00:47:26
    something that relates very closely to
  • 00:47:28
    your own condition which is something
  • 00:47:29
    that the theorists often talk about
  • 00:47:32
    maybe that's actually less useful than
  • 00:47:34
    just you know reading stuff that open
  • 00:47:36
    your mind to other possibilities
  • 00:47:38
    so
  • 00:47:42
    as I say there's a lot more to be found
  • 00:47:44
    out here and I think it's important not
  • 00:47:46
    to not to jump to overly rapid
  • 00:47:49
    conclusions I
  • 00:47:54
    will just conclude with a brief anecdote
  • 00:47:57
    about
  • 00:47:59
    about the partnership that I had with
  • 00:48:02
    with the charity
  • 00:48:04
    one of the I
  • 00:48:07
    suppose one of the implications of what
  • 00:48:10
    I've been saying is that and which I
  • 00:48:13
    just want to clarify I don't really mean
  • 00:48:14
    is that these survey data should be
  • 00:48:17
    taken at face value obviously they're
  • 00:48:19
    only there any self-report there are any
  • 00:48:21
    people's own insights into what they
  • 00:48:23
    think is going on and I think it's kind
  • 00:48:26
    of quite dangerous to take them
  • 00:48:29
    to take them literally without inquiring
  • 00:48:32
    in a more expanded experimental fashion
  • 00:48:34
    into the actual relationships of cause
  • 00:48:37
    and effect
  • 00:48:38
    if we don't do that we get kind of into
  • 00:48:41
    the realm of of the whole idea of
  • 00:48:43
    triggering and the sense that if people
  • 00:48:46
    say that they are upset by something
  • 00:48:47
    that means they necessarily shouldn't do
  • 00:48:49
    engage with it and they should perhaps
  • 00:48:50
    even have been protected from it and
  • 00:48:53
    this is this is something that beats and
  • 00:48:56
    I sort of ended up arguing quite a bit
  • 00:48:58
    about because well actually we didn't
  • 00:49:00
    argue because they weren't willing to
  • 00:49:01
    but it turned out that my blog
  • 00:49:04
    contravenes their guidelines for how
  • 00:49:07
    that the media should represent eating
  • 00:49:08
    disorders so
  • 00:49:11
    they they said that if the partnership
  • 00:49:14
    was go on I can i couldn't mention the
  • 00:49:17
    the collaboration on the blog and sort
  • 00:49:19
    of had to keep them very separate from
  • 00:49:21
    each other which was a shame
  • 00:49:22
    but it it was mainly a shame that they
  • 00:49:25
    weren't willing to engage and sort of
  • 00:49:27
    think about the evidence base for those
  • 00:49:30
    guidelines which was it was empirical
  • 00:49:32
    but it was only survey based and quite
  • 00:49:34
    small and to think about the broader
  • 00:49:36
    questions if you know what how I think
  • 00:49:39
    about cost-benefit relationships and you
  • 00:49:41
    know how to
  • 00:49:45
    how to do I suppose their their idea was
  • 00:49:49
    basically first do no harm whereas my
  • 00:49:52
    idea was more about how might we balance
  • 00:49:54
    the potential harm a potential good or
  • 00:49:57
    just
  • 00:49:58
    more generally try to investigate what's
  • 00:50:00
    what's really going on so I guess these
  • 00:50:03
    kind of thing is very easy to take for
  • 00:50:05
    granted that everyone will take an
  • 00:50:07
    academic perspective on it and of course
  • 00:50:08
    why should they they're a charity so
  • 00:50:11
    their priority is different
  • 00:50:15
    just a final concluding few thoughts
  • 00:50:18
    about about where
  • 00:50:20
    cognitive literary dialogue might be
  • 00:50:23
    particularly useful I think narrative
  • 00:50:25
    perspective is one of the one of the big
  • 00:50:27
    questions I've been thinking about for a
  • 00:50:29
    while and about about which there are
  • 00:50:31
    also many assumptions
  • 00:50:32
    primarily the one that you know the
  • 00:50:34
    first person kind of draws you in more
  • 00:50:35
    than the third person there is certainly
  • 00:50:39
    some evidence that this may be the case
  • 00:50:41
    in terms of sympathy and Trust and
  • 00:50:43
    things but we we need to know a lot more
  • 00:50:46
    about this and I wonder whether whether
  • 00:50:48
    I think differences in perspective could
  • 00:50:49
    be actually quite significant in in
  • 00:50:52
    changing people's attitudes towards
  • 00:50:54
    things that happen in the text and in
  • 00:50:57
    there are knives then coming back to the
  • 00:51:00
    stuff about cognitive realism that I've
  • 00:51:02
    talked about in the beginning
  • 00:51:03
    there's the question of descriptive
  • 00:51:05
    style and whether I
  • 00:51:08
    guess the the default intuition would be
  • 00:51:12
    that the more detailed description of
  • 00:51:16
    for example an emaciated body or
  • 00:51:18
    whatever the more
  • 00:51:19
    potentially detrimental effects there
  • 00:51:21
    could be the you know the more vivid the
  • 00:51:23
    mental imagery then under
  • 00:51:26
    the greater the danger of a kind of
  • 00:51:28
    triggered response but actually I think
  • 00:51:30
    maybe a very fleeting mention of
  • 00:51:33
    someone's you know beautifully slim
  • 00:51:34
    physique or something could be just as
  • 00:51:36
    powerful so what is the kind of
  • 00:51:38
    relationship between those things and
  • 00:51:40
    then there's metaphor as well which came
  • 00:51:43
    up in my description of
  • 00:51:45
    the critical responses to the Hunger
  • 00:51:47
    artists the idea of purity of strength
  • 00:51:51
    of cleanliness all the all these things
  • 00:51:53
    are very powerful in the in the eating
  • 00:51:55
    does a little realm conceptual metaphor
  • 00:51:57
    theory and things like that give us my
  • 00:51:59
    purchase there's also interesting
  • 00:52:01
    evidence about the relationship between
  • 00:52:02
    moral judgments and physical cleansing
  • 00:52:05
    for example
  • 00:52:06
    so if we're thinking about textual
  • 00:52:09
    manifestations of certain attitudes or
  • 00:52:12
    judgments are they actually
  • 00:52:16
    more effective in a real-world sense
  • 00:52:18
    when they're conveyed through those
  • 00:52:19
    particular metaphors of
  • 00:52:23
    of the eating disorder constellation
  • 00:52:27
    so I will leave it there I hope I hope
  • 00:52:31
    I've managed to convey two things
  • 00:52:32
    firstly that eating disorders are really
  • 00:52:35
    not the only thing going in this area I
  • 00:52:38
    don't I kind of hate the talks where you
  • 00:52:41
    feel like they they've grabbed all the
  • 00:52:42
    good territory for themselves and
  • 00:52:43
    there's nothing else for you to do and
  • 00:52:45
    say that's brilliant why don't you care
  • 00:52:47
    I'm doing it so I mean any any of the
  • 00:52:50
    big questions that one can think about
  • 00:52:51
    from climate change to religious
  • 00:52:53
    extremism to you know all the big
  • 00:52:55
    candidates I think there's a role for
  • 00:52:57
    for culture for literary and and
  • 00:53:00
    dramatic and performative culture to
  • 00:53:03
    for our understanding is that to make a
  • 00:53:05
    difference in in tackling these things
  • 00:53:07
    and the second is this is this rather
  • 00:53:09
    complex relationship between the person
  • 00:53:11
    and the academic once you kind of
  • 00:53:13
    acknowledge that you have biases and you
  • 00:53:15
    have
  • 00:53:16
    predilections and and commitments and so
  • 00:53:18
    on then what do you do i
  • 00:53:20
    i wide and putting together this talk
  • 00:53:23
    about how how legitimate it is to to
  • 00:53:26
    bring this stuff in how it reflects on
  • 00:53:28
    me and a lot in the writing i doing now
  • 00:53:31
    I'm want to you know site a blog post
  • 00:53:34
    alongside all the peer-reviewed articles
  • 00:53:36
    and things but is that you know what
  • 00:53:38
    does that say about me all the fields or
  • 00:53:40
    whatever but I hope that this kind of
  • 00:53:43
    interaction between the cognitive and
  • 00:53:45
    the Medical Humanities might might start
  • 00:53:47
    to take the initiative on this and find
  • 00:53:49
    ways of being creative you know we have
  • 00:53:50
    to given the internet exists and these
  • 00:53:53
    boundaries are all becoming more blurred
  • 00:53:54
    all the time but for now it's it's
  • 00:53:57
    really nice for me to be finally
  • 00:53:59
    convinced that you know science doesn't
  • 00:54:01
    have all the answers and randomized
  • 00:54:03
    controlled trials are great but we need
  • 00:54:04
    to we need to make our own changes to
  • 00:54:08
    how those methods are conceived or
  • 00:54:10
    learned and practiced
  • 00:54:12
    so yeah I guess basically it's nice to
  • 00:54:16
    feel that
  • 00:54:16
    CSI has some usefulness but I have
  • 00:54:20
    talked about it also
  • 00:54:32
    [Music]
  • 00:54:52
    [Music]
  • 00:54:58
    but I you to realize that you were
  • 00:55:01
    getting too specific about ten years and
  • 00:55:03
    that people
  • 00:55:05
    and
  • 00:55:07
    reading habits so a new part I would ask
  • 00:55:11
    you if part of your work is to diagnose
  • 00:55:14
    disorders
  • 00:55:28
    impossible maybe Corrections were
  • 00:55:49
    very closely individual cases but
  • 00:56:00
    change
  • 00:56:09
    yeah like reading disorders I
  • 00:56:12
    yeah it's very clear from reading
  • 00:56:15
    people's thoughts about the stuff that
  • 00:56:19
    that the shear strength of the
  • 00:56:21
    interpretive filter that so easily gets
  • 00:56:23
    applied to what's being read is almost
  • 00:56:27
    that ways any other factor and lots of
  • 00:56:29
    people said that it almost doesn't
  • 00:56:32
    matter what what text they're reading
  • 00:56:34
    because they bring so much stuff to it
  • 00:56:36
    that they'll filter out anything that's
  • 00:56:38
    that's not relevant and they'll just
  • 00:56:40
    take what they wanted an interpretation
  • 00:56:43
    is is
  • 00:56:46
    is kind of at the center actually I
  • 00:56:48
    didn't really get into it cuz I I still
  • 00:56:51
    find it hard to talk about in a both
  • 00:56:53
    concise and clear way but I think
  • 00:56:55
    there's the interpretation is
  • 00:56:57
    another of these things that's hugely I
  • 00:57:00
    mean this is the bedrock of humanities
  • 00:57:03
    practice and yet it's very rarely
  • 00:57:05
    enquired into as a as an object inquiry
  • 00:57:07
    itself and I think
  • 00:57:12
    there's a kind of spectrum on which one
  • 00:57:14
    could see interpretive
  • 00:57:16
    practice in the cognitive sense
  • 00:57:20
    in in the mental health realm so you've
  • 00:57:23
    got conditions like schizophrenia where
  • 00:57:25
    there's a very hyper scenic or you know
  • 00:57:27
    tendency to over interpret the world
  • 00:57:31
    so kind of a very extreme degree and
  • 00:57:34
    then the other end you've got things
  • 00:57:36
    like Parkinson's disease disease where
  • 00:57:38
    interpretive salience is very much
  • 00:57:40
    dampened down and then I guess eating
  • 00:57:43
    disorders inhabit kind of both poles at
  • 00:57:44
    once where some some things are really
  • 00:57:47
    interpretive significance is really over
  • 00:57:49
    attributed to them and other in other
  • 00:57:50
    cases it's it's it's ignored and and the
  • 00:57:54
    interpretation doesn't doesn't kick in
  • 00:57:57
    so I think maybe that's
  • 00:57:59
    that's something where
  • 00:58:02
    maybe that's the central point where
  • 00:58:04
    these these ideas can actually
  • 00:58:07
    meet and illuminate each other if we I
  • 00:58:10
    think the need to understand really what
  • 00:58:14
    better what we mean by interpretation
  • 00:58:16
    water its precursors what my various
  • 00:58:18
    potential effects what what the things
  • 00:58:20
    counters interpretation or not I think
  • 00:58:22
    that could be a really productive way to
  • 00:58:23
    go and would get at the the idea of the
  • 00:58:27
    the reading disorder that's not it's not
  • 00:58:29
    the same as an eating disorder or
  • 00:58:31
    depression or whatever else but it
  • 00:58:34
    but it bears a close and and fraught
  • 00:58:37
    relationship with it with those whose
  • 00:58:38
    other conditions potentially and the
  • 00:58:42
    question about history yeah this I mean
  • 00:58:44
    this gets right to the to the nub of
  • 00:58:46
    what the empirical the empirically
  • 00:58:50
    minded literary studies domain can and
  • 00:58:53
    can't do
  • 00:58:56
    unfortunately you can't do
  • 00:58:58
    controlled experiments with historical
  • 00:59:00
    readers so all you can do is look at it
  • 00:59:03
    look at testimony this has been passed
  • 00:59:06
    down to us from them so to that extent
  • 00:59:09
    you know cause and effect will always
  • 00:59:12
    remain somewhat opaque because you can
  • 00:59:14
    never go and go in and do the control
  • 00:59:15
    condition
  • 00:59:17
    but maybe that's I don't know maybe that
  • 00:59:20
    is a slightly - making this a better
  • 00:59:21
    thing he might sit on the other hand I
  • 00:59:23
    think it's important to bear in mind the
  • 00:59:24
    limitations of what we can can't there
  • 00:59:26
    about people who are now dead i
  • 00:59:29
    I suppose I'm trying to keep my sites a
  • 00:59:32
    little bit more modest at the moment but
  • 00:59:36
    certainly a kind of a more a broader
  • 00:59:39
    cultural investigation would be would be
  • 00:59:42
    fascinating to do I mean there's lots of
  • 00:59:43
    interesting historical work on
  • 00:59:45
    disordered eating and of course on the
  • 00:59:47
    kind of history of reading and so on but
  • 00:59:49
    it feels a bit terrifyingly daunting to
  • 00:59:52
    try and put them together right now I've
  • 00:59:54
    been just that have you had any thoughts
  • 00:59:55
    about where one might start but yeah
  • 00:59:58
    that's for another decade
  • 01:00:01
    yeah thank you very much for such a rich
  • 01:00:04
    talk and a fascinating project it's the
  • 01:00:07
    kind of thing I need to think a lot more
  • 01:00:09
    about before I can ask anything sort of
  • 01:00:11
    really meaningful but I have just the
  • 01:00:13
    infant piece of information I'd like
  • 01:00:16
    which have to do with the age of your
  • 01:00:20
    respondents which I work at age service
  • 01:00:22
    are expecting and assume that it's it's
  • 01:00:25
    mainly young women it's women and the
  • 01:00:27
    other gender question yeah versus man
  • 01:00:30
    yeah but I wondered whether any older
  • 01:00:32
    people responded me whether you're
  • 01:00:34
    studying with the difference between
  • 01:00:36
    responses that kind of a first gender
  • 01:00:38
    bias responses and secondly yes
  • 01:00:44
    yeah I definitely plan to as you say
  • 01:00:48
    sadly the but as is as is typical and in
  • 01:00:53
    this kind of area it was primarily young
  • 01:00:55
    so up to mid 30s women who who responded
  • 01:01:01
    and I haven't done I haven't actually
  • 01:01:04
    broken down the analysis by age yet or
  • 01:01:06
    buying it doesn't really make sense to
  • 01:01:08
    do it by sex probably because they're
  • 01:01:11
    just so few men but but we did have it a
  • 01:01:15
    decent number like more than a handful
  • 01:01:17
    of of older women I mean I think the
  • 01:01:21
    oldest was was in her 80s but she was
  • 01:01:24
    sort of the only one in that decade but
  • 01:01:25
    then there were quite a few from some
  • 01:01:28
    kind of middle-age spread so
  • 01:01:31
    that is definitely something that I
  • 01:01:33
    would I would like to look into more I
  • 01:01:35
    think
  • 01:01:37
    I don't know whether you have any
  • 01:01:39
    predictions about how interpretive
  • 01:01:40
    habits might might change but
  • 01:01:44
    I'd have thought that there might be I
  • 01:01:48
    don't know perhaps this
  • 01:01:51
    perhaps the relationship between
  • 01:01:55
    the very narrowing filter of the eating
  • 01:01:58
    disorder and the sort of expensive
  • 01:02:00
    possibilities that that fiction opens up
  • 01:02:02
    might be somewhat different when you
  • 01:02:04
    have more life experience so
  • 01:02:06
    ya know definitely work for future yeah
  • 01:02:10
    I
  • 01:02:12
    enjoyed your talk and this is not a
  • 01:02:16
    scientific observation but it does
  • 01:02:19
    pertain you concept it is 38 and then if
  • 01:02:23
    you're struggling with which is to what
  • 01:02:25
    extent the perfect you know personalize
  • 01:02:27
    me academically we all do that
  • 01:02:29
    beings were conveyed by that majority
  • 01:02:32
    what I mean I lose a brother I was
  • 01:02:36
    struck by the the chart we showed
  • 01:02:40
    well that were put off by the literature
  • 01:02:42
    that adult explicitly meaning to sort of
  • 01:02:44
    do and literature that didn't you know
  • 01:02:47
    as a medical ethicist and
  • 01:02:50
    someone who is
  • 01:02:52
    trying to get my students to think about
  • 01:02:56
    other people I use fiction specifically
  • 01:03:00
    with a purpose literature and
  • 01:03:01
    specifically fiction for the purpose of
  • 01:03:03
    getting people to get outside themselves
  • 01:03:04
    to adults you know in the natural way
  • 01:03:08
    the perspective of people
  • 01:03:11
    I think the therapeutic part is is the
  • 01:03:17
    ease with which even though it requires
  • 01:03:20
    patience literature can take you outside
  • 01:03:23
    yourself not just into a fantasy world
  • 01:03:25
    but away from you and all the minutiae
  • 01:03:28
    and the nagging and I mean I've actually
  • 01:03:32
    you know again this is unscientific but
  • 01:03:35
    you know I've made the claim in the past
  • 01:03:37
    that it's does the SP and also kind of
  • 01:03:40
    kept kind of therapy not you know any
  • 01:03:42
    other kind of
  • 01:03:44
    so I think
  • 01:04:00
    [Music]
  • 01:04:01
    that my remark is potentially
  • 01:04:04
    controversial because I don't want you
  • 01:04:07
    playing the victim and I don't want to
  • 01:04:09
    do anything I will take her and away
  • 01:04:11
    from you know some form of coding how I
  • 01:04:14
    like to know this unique thing about not
  • 01:04:17
    suffering from that he or she is
  • 01:04:20
    but I guess this is a sort of
  • 01:04:23
    questioning what do you make of your
  • 01:04:26
    respondents who claimed the explicit
  • 01:04:31
    attention to the things which they were
  • 01:04:32
    doing didn't make them feel better and
  • 01:04:34
    it's there something I need this this
  • 01:04:37
    pertains to your ready-made meaning
  • 01:04:39
    category and other regard would be
  • 01:04:42
    incidents about how they world I mean
  • 01:04:45
    not to blame the victim but you know is
  • 01:04:47
    this and many other kinds of things from
  • 01:04:50
    which we suffer I resolve there's some
  • 01:04:52
    form of self-absorption not to be
  • 01:04:55
    conjugated
  • 01:04:55
    question yes gosh that's a lot of really
  • 01:05:00
    interesting ideas i
  • 01:05:02
    what do I make of
  • 01:05:06
    their testimony along along those lines
  • 01:05:09
    I I
  • 01:05:10
    think there's probably a an issue of
  • 01:05:13
    time scale I mean I can completely
  • 01:05:15
    imagine that in the short potentially to
  • 01:05:19
    medium term
  • 01:05:20
    reading this stuff makes you feel worse
  • 01:05:23
    makes you feel more preoccupied with it
  • 01:05:26
    you feel that it is just unequivocally
  • 01:05:28
    done you harm
  • 01:05:30
    but I think part of the
  • 01:05:32
    the trajectory of mental illness is
  • 01:05:34
    often to to come to a realization about
  • 01:05:37
    just how life is when you're ill
  • 01:05:39
    and then be motivated to do something
  • 01:05:41
    about it so one could argue that that
  • 01:05:44
    the
  • 01:05:45
    that there is a role for for that
  • 01:05:48
    increased preoccupation that
  • 01:05:50
    that engagement with others who are not
  • 01:05:53
    sufficiently different for it to be a
  • 01:05:55
    mind opening experience for here almost
  • 01:05:58
    exactly the same therefore or not
  • 01:06:01
    I'm not doing anything other than
  • 01:06:03
    increasing the self absorption there
  • 01:06:04
    might there might still be actually a
  • 01:06:06
    positive role for that because you know
  • 01:06:08
    you'll get frustrated enough in the end
  • 01:06:11
    perhaps with that that you'll that
  • 01:06:13
    you'll do something to try and get out
  • 01:06:15
    so that's that's perhaps one very
  • 01:06:18
    partial answer to what you what you
  • 01:06:21
    suggested
  • 01:06:25
    yeah Tolstoy Dostoevsky
  • 01:06:27
    would you say that that that usefulness
  • 01:06:31
    of those texts be you was mean you don't
  • 01:06:35
    have to go into the details if you if
  • 01:06:37
    you didn't like but um
  • 01:06:39
    was it about difference or was it about
  • 01:06:41
    similarity or was it a mixture who was
  • 01:06:43
    above any you know Dmitri didn't care
  • 01:06:46
    about socks a gambler and I have the
  • 01:06:49
    closest experience I have a basket to
  • 01:06:51
    personally listen experience I've ever
  • 01:06:52
    had a mutation is Bob Cousy money would
  • 01:06:55
    lose a lot of time
  • 01:06:57
    but what I have been about this
  • 01:07:00
    character who were so different than me
  • 01:07:02
    it really in troubled and contrasted me
  • 01:07:04
    I just granted I mean it just got just
  • 01:07:07
    there's he got it himself of the camera
  • 01:07:09
    that's just one example of many yeah and
  • 01:07:12
    Tolstoy talking you know Anna Karenina
  • 01:07:14
    about
  • 01:07:15
    the pretension of the Russians having to
  • 01:07:19
    teach your daughter's French the older
  • 01:07:22
    sister I mean just at a time you know my
  • 01:07:26
    four hundred years when I was thinking
  • 01:07:28
    about what kind of etiquette I needed to
  • 01:07:31
    have I wish again I'm learning
  • 01:07:35
    by virtually direct communication
  • 01:07:38
    silence so so I guess that's an
  • 01:07:40
    interesting than what you're making
  • 01:07:42
    maybe there's something
  • 01:07:45
    - yes yeah
  • 01:07:48
    and that probably relates to the
  • 01:07:49
    question about emotion versus
  • 01:07:53
    or in combination with a more distance
  • 01:07:56
    response so yeah
  • 01:07:59
    you're learning new things it's not just
  • 01:08:02
    a
  • 01:08:03
    reflection
  • 01:08:13
    that's wondering what you think or if
  • 01:08:15
    you have any other comments on teaching
  • 01:08:18
    this stuff to undergrads because I feel
  • 01:08:20
    like
  • 01:08:21
    there's so much potential for both
  • 01:08:24
    cognitive leaders in general but also
  • 01:08:26
    this is kind of uniquely engaged or
  • 01:08:28
    applied cognitive settings I feel like
  • 01:08:30
    once people get to that
  • 01:08:34
    they're already
  • 01:08:36
    into new tourism or other perspective
  • 01:08:40
    other research and if I've learned
  • 01:08:43
    anything doing this speaker series for
  • 01:08:45
    three years it's like it's damn hard to
  • 01:08:47
    turn people into different sorts of
  • 01:08:50
    frameworks
  • 01:08:51
    but it's also
  • 01:08:54
    in terms of general of course offerings
  • 01:08:57
    at undergraduate in in departments in
  • 01:08:59
    English or theater or in history or
  • 01:09:01
    whatever
  • 01:09:02
    how I'm able to work in this sort of
  • 01:09:06
    st. Matt's as opposed to you know in a
  • 01:09:11
    psychology
  • 01:09:12
    yeah good question um I
  • 01:09:16
    obviously there's
  • 01:09:18
    there's an easy answer which is
  • 01:09:21
    to
  • 01:09:23
    unrepentantly kind of go for the
  • 01:09:25
    emotional hook and to say you know
  • 01:09:27
    either you or someone you know has
  • 01:09:29
    definitely had a mental illness for
  • 01:09:31
    example in this case
  • 01:09:32
    therefore I know that you care about it
  • 01:09:35
    therefore let you know let's let's
  • 01:09:37
    investigate well it sure would actually
  • 01:09:39
    study has to say about this kind of
  • 01:09:40
    thing but on the other hand you don't
  • 01:09:43
    you don't want to do that
  • 01:09:45
    too crudely I think
  • 01:09:48
    nor do you just want to
  • 01:09:51
    because because we don't really have any
  • 01:09:53
    answers about any of this stuff yet you
  • 01:09:57
    can't present it as a kind of
  • 01:09:59
    opportunity for them to
  • 01:10:01
    you know learn how to self-medicate or
  • 01:10:04
    something I read an interesting article
  • 01:10:08
    which I which I mentioned in the talk
  • 01:10:11
    on The Hunger artist stuff by Mark who's
  • 01:10:16
    who's talking about Kafka as well and
  • 01:10:18
    talking about teaching a class
  • 01:10:21
    including many young women who had
  • 01:10:24
    either personal and direct experience of
  • 01:10:27
    eating problems and he took the first
  • 01:10:30
    one young woman who was meant to be
  • 01:10:33
    writing in an essay about I think it was
  • 01:10:37
    in this case Camus and
  • 01:10:39
    symbolism of light or something in late
  • 01:10:43
    2002 really bad job her essay or had had
  • 01:10:48
    problems with it and he asked her what
  • 01:10:49
    was what the issue was and she says
  • 01:10:52
    something about having
  • 01:10:53
    wanted to she she'd been struck by how
  • 01:10:56
    much food related stuff was going on in
  • 01:10:59
    the text or body related stuff and she'd
  • 01:11:01
    really wanted to talk about that and yet
  • 01:11:03
    and also hadn't wanted to because it
  • 01:11:05
    felt way too close to home and she
  • 01:11:06
    didn't know how to she felt that that
  • 01:11:09
    was not doing proper literary criticism
  • 01:11:10
    because it was it would get her into the
  • 01:11:12
    realm of the personal too quickly so
  • 01:11:14
    she'd just done a really half-assed job
  • 01:11:16
    on the earth on the symbolism of light
  • 01:11:18
    stuff instead
  • 01:11:20
    but that made me think about
  • 01:11:26
    about the dangers and also the potential
  • 01:11:28
    of doing this stuff in the classroom I
  • 01:11:30
    think it's lovely of people - one of the
  • 01:11:34
    reasons that I like
  • 01:11:35
    trial is trying to teach the cognitive
  • 01:11:38
    stuff is that
  • 01:11:39
    it makes it makes personal experience
  • 01:11:42
    legitimate it says you know if you have
  • 01:11:44
    a response along such-and-such lines to
  • 01:11:47
    this text that's relevant to our study
  • 01:11:49
    we can we can work with that we can try
  • 01:11:52
    and investigate why and you know think
  • 01:11:54
    about if you change this word or that
  • 01:11:55
    word how would that have changed your
  • 01:11:56
    experience so I think this this kind of
  • 01:12:00
    takes that
  • 01:12:01
    that intuitive appeal a little bit
  • 01:12:03
    further but also going further in a good
  • 01:12:05
    way and also in a fraught and
  • 01:12:08
    a tricky way when it comes to mental
  • 01:12:10
    health but then engagement perhaps on
  • 01:12:12
    something I mean I mentioned climate
  • 01:12:14
    change for example there is interested
  • 01:12:15
    in how in our narrative
  • 01:12:17
    engagement might might help motivate
  • 01:12:20
    people to be more environmentally
  • 01:12:22
    responsible and stuff there may be maybe
  • 01:12:24
    a less
  • 01:12:25
    slightly less close to the bone kind of
  • 01:12:27
    thing might
  • 01:12:28
    might strike a nice compromise between
  • 01:12:31
    you know going for the jugular and
  • 01:12:34
    seeming irrelevant that's maybe one one
  • 01:12:38
    way of proceeding
  • 01:12:39
    [Music]
  • 01:12:47
    come back and thank you very much
  • 01:12:49
    [Applause]
Tags
  • Emily Shenko
  • Cognitive Science
  • Literary Studies
  • Mental Health
  • Cognitive Realism
  • Kafkaesque
  • Eating Disorders
  • Interdisciplinary Research
  • Fiction Impact
  • Humanities and Sciences