Emily Troscianko-Why We Need Cognitive Literary Studies To Help Us Understand & Treat Mental Illness
Summary
TLDREmily Shenko, a research associate at Oxford, explores the interface between cognitive science and literary studies. Her work focuses on understanding the mental impact of literature, particularly regarding mental health issues like eating disorders. She uses Kafka's works to develop the concept of 'cognitive realism,' which seeks to explain how storytelling can psychologically engage the reader. Shenko discusses the lack of current research in this interdisciplinary area, emphasizes the potential risks and benefits of fiction on mental wellbeing, and calls for more empirical studies to understand the mechanisms involved. Through her collaboration with the eating disorders charity Beat, she examines how literature might influence individuals' perceptions of their mental health, highlighting both therapeutic and harmful potentials of narrative engagement. Shenko stresses the need for dialogue between humanities and sciences to comprehend literature's profound effects on cognition and behavior.
Takeaways
- π Emily Shenko connects cognitive science and literary studies.
- π Explores Kafka's influence on reader cognition through 'cognitive realism'.
- π½οΈ Investigates fiction's impact on disordered eating.
- π‘ Highlights the lack of research on literature's effect on mental health.
- π Discusses positive and negative feedback loops in reader psychology.
- π§ Suggests fiction can both harm and heal mental health conditions.
- π Calls for empirical studies to understand literary impact mechanisms.
- π€ Collaborates with Beat charity to explore literature's role in mental health.
- π Emphasizes the need for interdisciplinary research between sciences and humanities.
- π¬ Advocates for a balanced view on literature's benefits and risks.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The Cognitive Science in the Arts and Humanities event introduces speaker Emily Shenko, known for integrating cognitive science and literature. Shenko, a research associate at Oxford, explores how cognitive models explain the eeriness in Kafka's works. Her book "Kafka's Cognitive Realism" examines the realism in literature, questioning its accuracy and impact on readers.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Emily Shenko emphasizes the importance of interdisciplinary dialogue between humanities and cognitive sciences. She discusses her work on Kafka and the integration of cognitive science, particularly second-generation cognitive science focusing on embodied experience. This enhances ethical and interpretative literary scholarship.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Shenko plans to discuss interdisciplinarity's role in examining the usefulness of literature, particularly relating to mental health and disordered eating. She will explore how fiction reading interacts with cultural aspects of eating disorders, and the limited research in this area. She advocates for cognitive literary science in understanding literary effects.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Shenko seeks to explore the complex interplay between personal motivation and academic pursuit, aiming for a meaningful contribution in the realm of cognitive literary studies. She emphasizes the need to balance personal interests with professional goals, especially when connecting literature and cognitive science.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Shenko shares her personal journey into cognitive literary studies, prompted by her interest in Kafka's narratives. Her initial reluctance and crisis led her to seek questions that genuinely interested her, combining her scientific background with literary analysis to address cognitive realism in literature.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
The interdisciplinary approach helps Shenko tackle questions about the interaction between literary works and the reader's mind, focusing on literary effects and their potential therapeutic implications for mental health issues like eating disorders. Her own experiences with eating disorders partly drive this research.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Shenko realized the lack of research linking fiction reading with mental health, particularly eating disorders. She began a project exploring this interaction, combining personal history with literary scholarship. The project aims to highlight potential therapeutic roles fiction might play in mental health.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Shenko conducted a major survey with support from the UK eating disorders charity, Beat, to explore perceptions of reading's impact on mental health. The survey revealed complex interactions, with respondents often linking reading to exacerbating or alleviating symptoms, highlighting literature's dual potential for harm and benefit.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
Shenko identifies various feedback loops in which fiction interacts with mental health, particularly eating disorders. The survey suggests that fictional narratives can either positively or negatively influence attitudes and behaviors, serving as feedback within the cognitive and emotional systems of readers.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
The research identifies both positive and negative feedback loops in readers with eating disorders. Shenko aims to explore literature's effects on mood, body image, and self-esteem. She emphasizes the need for in-depth investigation into how literature can harm or help, beyond simple assumptions of its therapeutic potential.
- 00:50:00 - 00:55:00
Shenko highlights the necessity for empirical studies on bibliotherapy, noting a lack of rigorous exploration of how fiction might aid or harm mental health. She critiques the reliance on assumptions about literature's beneficial nature and calls for scientific inquiry into its mechanisms, particularly in cognitive literary studies.
- 00:55:00 - 01:00:00
Shenko expresses skepticism about existing literary therapy models and calls for a more nuanced understanding of literature's impact on mental health, particularly in relation to eating disorders. She challenges simplistic views of literary insight as inherently beneficial and opens the field for more precise investigations.
- 01:00:00 - 01:05:00
Shenko addresses the partnership challenges with non-academic entities like Beat, advocating for data-driven discussions on literature's impact on mental health. She explores the potential role of first-person narratives and cognitive realism in literature, examining how these might influence emotional and cognitive engagement.
- 01:05:00 - 01:12:55
In conclusion, Shenko acknowledges the broader application of cognitive literary studies beyond eating disorders, urging a focus on detailed mechanisms rather than assumptions. She reflects on the interplay between personal and academic motivations, advocating for innovative approaches in cognitive and medical humanities.
Mind Map
Video Q&A
Who is Emily Shenko?
Emily Shenko is a research associate and postdoctoral training coordinator at the University of Oxford. She specializes in cognitive literary science.
What is cognitive realism?
Cognitive realism is a concept that explores how literary texts replicate or correspond to cognitive processes in the reader's mind, making the text seem realistic and impactful.
What was Emily Shenko's first book?
Emily Shenko's first book was "Kafka's Cognitive Realism," published by Rutledge in 2014.
What is the main focus of Emily Shenko's talk?
Her main focus is on the intersection between cognitive science and literary studies, particularly looking at how these can inform our understanding of mental health issues like eating disorders.
What are some features of Kafka's literary style according to Emily Shenko?
Kafka's style is noted for its minimal descriptions, creating an eerie feeling that engages readers' cognitive processes deeply.
How does Emily Shenko view the role of literature in mental health?
She suggests that literature can both positively and negatively impact mental health by influencing readers' cognitive and emotional responses.
What is the connection between disordered eating and fiction reading according to Shenko?
Shenko postulates that fiction can reflect cultural narratives about body image and health, potentially influencing readers in both harmful and beneficial ways.
What is the role of interdisciplinarity in Shenko's work?
Interdisciplinarity in Shenko's work allows for the blending of cognitive science and literary studies to address questions about mental health and the impact of literature.
What methodological approach does Shenko use in her research?
She uses empirical research, including surveys and interdisciplinary analysis, to explore the relationships between literature, cognitive processes, and mental health.
What organizations supported the event Shenko spoke at?
The event was supported by Stony Brook GSO and the PHOS grant.
View more video summaries
Safely Make 10k Per Month - Option Trading for Beginners - Selling PUTS
Food to Improve Gut Health in Telugu | Dr Nageshwar Reddy About Gut Health Diet
What It Takes to Open a Coffee Shop
Who were the first people in recorded history?
Rabbi: βItβs Time to tell you Everythingβ¦β
Michael Brown DEBUNKS Tovia Singer on Isaiah 53? | Jesus or Israel?
- 00:00:00hi thanks for joining us for the second
- 00:00:04cognitive science in the arts and
- 00:00:05humanities event for this semester the
- 00:00:08speaker series which has now been
- 00:00:09running for about three years is funded
- 00:00:11by the Stony Brook gso and phos grant
- 00:00:14without whose support we probably
- 00:00:16wouldn't be able to do any of this so
- 00:00:17thank you to both of those organizations
- 00:00:19our speaker today is Emily Shenko Emily
- 00:00:23is a research associate and postdoctoral
- 00:00:25training coordinator at the University
- 00:00:26of Oxford she received a doctorate in
- 00:00:292010 also from Oxford with a project
- 00:00:31entitled fuller the literary science of
- 00:00:34the Kafkaesque in which uses recent
- 00:00:36cognitive scientific models of
- 00:00:37perception to help explain the eerie
- 00:00:39feeling of reading Kafka short stories
- 00:00:42that study became her first book Kafka's
- 00:00:45cognitive realism published by Rutledge
- 00:00:47in 2014 and a paperback edition is
- 00:00:49coming out next week yes
- 00:00:55yeah so that study advances the idea of
- 00:00:59cognitive realism intending to provide a
- 00:01:01framework for asking and beginning to
- 00:01:03answer questions relevant to literary
- 00:01:05scholars of all theoretical backgrounds
- 00:01:07what does it mean to represent mirror
- 00:01:10depict or correspond to reality
- 00:01:12faithfully accurately almost
- 00:01:14photographically or in a true-to-life
- 00:01:16fashion what makes the text seem
- 00:01:18realistic to a reader does a realistic
- 00:01:21test text have systematically different
- 00:01:23effects on readers than an unrealistic
- 00:01:25text and what specific textual features
- 00:01:28are responsible for creating such
- 00:01:30effects
- 00:01:31ever the conscientious practitioner of
- 00:01:34interdisciplinary research Emily's work
- 00:01:37has accentuated the need for dialogue
- 00:01:38between the humanities and the cognitive
- 00:01:40sciences not merely a one-way street in
- 00:01:42which literary scholars like pirates
- 00:01:44plumb the depths of scientific studies
- 00:01:46to see what we can kind of make use of
- 00:01:48in this vein she and Michael Burke have
- 00:01:51an edited collection entitled cognitive
- 00:01:53literary science dialogues between
- 00:01:54literature and cognition forthcoming
- 00:01:57from Oxford University Press I first saw
- 00:02:00Emily presents at the second cognitive
- 00:02:02features in the humanities conference in
- 00:02:032014 in Durham where she prevented that
- 00:02:07presented a paper on another Kafka story
- 00:02:09a Hunger artist she talked about how
- 00:02:11second generation cognitive science
- 00:02:13which in short considers how embodied
- 00:02:15experience plays into cognition thought
- 00:02:18including research on eating disorders
- 00:02:20and starvation can factor into two
- 00:02:22traditional literary critical concerns
- 00:02:24Matic interpretation and paradox
- 00:02:27she further argued that a first-person
- 00:02:30perspective one that acknowledges the
- 00:02:32complexity of actual real-world
- 00:02:33embodiment can at least sometimes enrich
- 00:02:36the field of cognitive literary studies
- 00:02:38in combining first-person and
- 00:02:40second-generation perspectives on
- 00:02:42literature the presentation went we can
- 00:02:45kind of move toward both an ethical and
- 00:02:48interpretive Lee rewarding form of
- 00:02:50literary scholarship it was for sure one
- 00:02:53of the most eye-opening original
- 00:02:54insightful arguments have come across
- 00:02:55especially in the form of a 15-minute
- 00:02:57conference presentation and I think it's
- 00:02:59a prime example of what good
- 00:03:01interdisciplinary research can bring to
- 00:03:03the humanities with that please welcome
- 00:03:05Elaine Cheng oh
- 00:03:10thank you that's a lovely introduction I
- 00:03:13appreciate it I'm very happy to be here
- 00:03:15I
- 00:03:16will be trying to I'll be starting by
- 00:03:22approaching this question of need and of
- 00:03:25usefulness via the the back door if you
- 00:03:29like of interdisciplinarity because for
- 00:03:31me that's that's the way I found myself
- 00:03:33moving towards things that might
- 00:03:35actually be called useful then I'll I'll
- 00:03:38set out the particular realm of
- 00:03:41usefulness which I'll be dealing with
- 00:03:42today which relates to mental health and
- 00:03:44specifically disordered eating in
- 00:03:47relation to fiction reading I'll give
- 00:03:49some some reasons why I think these
- 00:03:51these two areas disorder dating and
- 00:03:54fiction reading might have useful things
- 00:03:56to say about it it's to say to each
- 00:03:58other
- 00:03:59partly the the culturally inflected
- 00:04:01nature of eating disorders and partly
- 00:04:04the the very strong embodied quality
- 00:04:06that they manifest
- 00:04:08which also has implications for kind of
- 00:04:11mind-body feedback loops which I've
- 00:04:12recently started to get really
- 00:04:14interested in
- 00:04:15then I'll talk about the the state of
- 00:04:17the research in this field moment which
- 00:04:19is pretty easy to do because it's hardly
- 00:04:20any
- 00:04:21and then I will ask why there is so
- 00:04:25little research and suggests that maybe
- 00:04:27part of the problem is it's it's quite
- 00:04:29easy to just fall into idealistic
- 00:04:31assumptions about the
- 00:04:33the wonderfully beneficial nature of you
- 00:04:37know literature rather than actually
- 00:04:41inquiring into whether this is the case
- 00:04:43so I'll present some very preliminary
- 00:04:47empirical evidence that suggests yes
- 00:04:50there may be some beneficial effects but
- 00:04:51also we have to take very seriously the
- 00:04:53possibility that fiction really might be
- 00:04:55doing people harm as well and that will
- 00:04:57lead me to sort of broaden out into a
- 00:04:59bit of reflection on triggering trigger
- 00:05:02warnings safe spaces and all these kind
- 00:05:03of things that are so
- 00:05:06heated in the academic context at the
- 00:05:08moment particularly I also reflect a bit
- 00:05:12on the joys and the frustrations of
- 00:05:14working with non-academic partners and I
- 00:05:18will conclude with some thoughts about
- 00:05:19why we really need
- 00:05:22cognitive literary studies or as I
- 00:05:24prefer to call it cognitive literary
- 00:05:25science or see else I just to be trendy
- 00:05:28why we need this this kind of
- 00:05:30disciplinary contribution to a more
- 00:05:33medically orientated study of literary
- 00:05:36effects and throughout I will be
- 00:05:40there will be a thread of kind of
- 00:05:43interaction between the we in my title
- 00:05:46and and the I I will be trying to be
- 00:05:51fairly honest about my own
- 00:05:54investments and commitments and reasons
- 00:05:57for doing the stuff that I'm doing
- 00:05:58because I think this is one of the
- 00:05:59interesting questions that we that we
- 00:06:02encounter when we start to to ask these
- 00:06:04questions about usefulness
- 00:06:06just before I start there I'd be really
- 00:06:08interested to know just vaguely what
- 00:06:11disciplines you feel that you primarily
- 00:06:13inhabit because you put up your hand if
- 00:06:16you think of yourself as a
- 00:06:18sane mainstream literary critical person
- 00:06:22so not cognitive
- 00:06:25okay and cognitive literary
- 00:06:29very hesitant you group
- 00:06:33come to science II
- 00:06:36I haven't said that yet big great
- 00:06:40medical healthy feels okay nice mixture
- 00:06:44who haven't I covered
- 00:06:46what do you what where would you
- 00:06:49okay
- 00:06:54yeah okay sorry I missed out that whole
- 00:06:56just a swathe of really important the
- 00:06:58sauce
- 00:06:59obviously takes only exists when they're
- 00:07:02for reading not for performing
- 00:07:05so I guess I've been I found myself in
- 00:07:08that somewhat reflective mood as I've
- 00:07:09been planning this paper partly because
- 00:07:12my partner has just moved out to
- 00:07:14California for the start of a new
- 00:07:15postdoc and I find that the sunshine is
- 00:07:18most conducive to
- 00:07:20spending time thinking about what
- 00:07:22actually matters
- 00:07:24something very impressive about constant
- 00:07:26rain in England that stops you ever
- 00:07:27thinking about anything
- 00:07:29so I've been thinking about the little
- 00:07:33corner of academia that I've been trying
- 00:07:35to carve out for myself somewhere
- 00:07:36between I suppose the cognitive and the
- 00:07:38Medical Humanities and
- 00:07:40I
- 00:07:42guess I've not I really don't feel like
- 00:07:45I have any answers for myself about how
- 00:07:47to
- 00:07:48move forward from this point necessarily
- 00:07:51at the moment financially speaking the
- 00:07:54the niche that I'm carving out doesn't
- 00:07:56seem to be a particularly viable like I
- 00:07:57didn't have a proper research grant at
- 00:07:59the moment or stable research position
- 00:08:03or any other academic position in fact
- 00:08:05and who knows maybe if I'd stayed in the
- 00:08:08in the better charted territory of
- 00:08:11standard literary studies things would
- 00:08:13have been different maybe not hardly any
- 00:08:15money anywhere
- 00:08:16but in any case I feel that that's not
- 00:08:18really a relevant question for me
- 00:08:19anymore because I simply couldn't have
- 00:08:20have stayed doing the things that I I
- 00:08:23thought literary criticism consisted of
- 00:08:26as an undergraduate I
- 00:08:28I found myself on the cusp of starting
- 00:08:33my doctoral studies really
- 00:08:35feeling something of a crisis of nerve I
- 00:08:38guess
- 00:08:39not knowing at all whether I wanted to
- 00:08:41actually go on and do the doctorate and
- 00:08:43my inveterately scientific family
- 00:08:47plunged in at this point and said well
- 00:08:49is there a question that you really want
- 00:08:52to answer and if not maybe don't bother
- 00:08:55so I realized that the
- 00:09:00thesis proposal for which I've got the
- 00:09:02funding was just actually filling me
- 00:09:04with quite a lot of horror and I
- 00:09:05couldn't really bear the idea of doing
- 00:09:07it for three years
- 00:09:09it was it was a pretty sort of
- 00:09:11theoretically dense thing about
- 00:09:15representations of space and modernism
- 00:09:17and the relation between rhetorical and
- 00:09:19philosophical traditions and I realized
- 00:09:23I didn't actually have a whole lot about
- 00:09:24any of that
- 00:09:25and the question that I realized I did
- 00:09:28want to answer was it was quite a simple
- 00:09:30one it was just basically why is kefka's
- 00:09:32writing so great why do people carry on
- 00:09:34reading after after all this time what
- 00:09:36makes it writing fascinating that kind
- 00:09:38of a set of questions and I quickly
- 00:09:42realized that in order to tackle this
- 00:09:44type of question I needed to understand
- 00:09:45a bit about how how the mind of the
- 00:09:47reader works so what kind of interaction
- 00:09:50is set up by the text between between
- 00:09:53the the textual features and and and the
- 00:09:55cognitive features
- 00:09:56there was actually interestingly already
- 00:09:59a kind of hint of of these types of
- 00:10:02scientific leanings in in this original
- 00:10:04proposal but it was not really going
- 00:10:06anywhere particularly interesting
- 00:10:08[Music]
- 00:10:10so interdisciplinarity was then my
- 00:10:14my way of
- 00:10:17tackling the question that I actually
- 00:10:19cared about and it had to be a kind of
- 00:10:22thorough going into this clarity rather
- 00:10:23than you know just a smattering of
- 00:10:25demacia and mirror neurons to sex up the
- 00:10:28surface of the argument it it sort of
- 00:10:31had to be
- 00:10:32fundamentally guiding where the weather
- 00:10:34questions and the answers were going and
- 00:10:35actually thinking about answers I guess
- 00:10:37is is already a quite scientifically
- 00:10:42inflected way of doing things because
- 00:10:44humanity's frustratingly often have a
- 00:10:46resistance the idea of answering
- 00:10:48questions
- 00:10:50so only in their most irritating
- 00:10:53manifestations I guess
- 00:10:55this was the paper that really changed
- 00:10:59everything for me I decided to think
- 00:11:01about the fact that it wasn't really
- 00:11:03space that that interested me in texts
- 00:11:06it was vision and the relationships
- 00:11:08between vision and imagination and I'd
- 00:11:10sort of started reading some of the
- 00:11:12philosophy around
- 00:11:14science of visual perception and then
- 00:11:16came across this
- 00:11:17this very it's a very kind of almost
- 00:11:22over done quite bombastic very very hard
- 00:11:26line paper about the
- 00:11:28the failure of the idea of mental
- 00:11:31representation to account for visual
- 00:11:33perception so the idea is we don't see
- 00:11:35things by building up a detailed picture
- 00:11:38of the environment instead we engage
- 00:11:40with it in a in a moment-to-moment and
- 00:11:42active fashion and it's just completely
- 00:11:44opened my eyes to what what it is about
- 00:11:47kefka's style that is so effective at
- 00:11:49least one of the important things it
- 00:11:51gives us often a very very little very
- 00:11:53minimal
- 00:11:54description of
- 00:11:56the scenes in which the characters
- 00:11:59interact with each other and and yet
- 00:12:02this doesn't seem to cause any problems
- 00:12:03it in indeed is is positively effective
- 00:12:08I think and my way of
- 00:12:10getting a grasp on on that kind of
- 00:12:13effectiveness was through the concept
- 00:12:14like gradually moved towards of
- 00:12:17cognitive realism so this is to begin
- 00:12:21with the interaction between
- 00:12:22the psychology as it with recordings of
- 00:12:27processes as they exist in the mind of
- 00:12:29the reader and as their
- 00:12:31in the text or rather a vote
- 00:12:33representation becomes a bit of a a
- 00:12:35problematic term
- 00:12:37so if there's a direct correspondence
- 00:12:39between those things you can call it a
- 00:12:40text cognitively realistic and then
- 00:12:43there's also the third little cog in the
- 00:12:45in the system which is the folk
- 00:12:46psychology so the intuitions about how
- 00:12:48the mind works which sometimes converge
- 00:12:50with how it really works and quite often
- 00:12:52don't so once you have the interactions
- 00:12:54between those three things you can
- 00:12:56actually start to to mix and quite
- 00:12:57interestingly detailed hypotheses about
- 00:13:00how textual features might create
- 00:13:02certain effects or not and so the idea
- 00:13:07was we've got there was basically his
- 00:13:09style the CAF Geske style and if you
- 00:13:11like is potentially quite compelling
- 00:13:14because it corresponds to the realities
- 00:13:16of how we see so not building up a
- 00:13:18detailed picture of everything in the
- 00:13:20space
- 00:13:21but actually just engaging with stuff as
- 00:13:23we need to in a rather fragmentary sense
- 00:13:25so it's compelling for that reason
- 00:13:27because there's a correspondence but
- 00:13:28it's also unsettling because the the
- 00:13:30folk psychology does not say that is all
- 00:13:32about pictures in the head and
- 00:13:34access to the whole pictorial lot of
- 00:13:37detail
- 00:13:38this image is just a kind of
- 00:13:42configuration of the description that
- 00:13:45you get at the beginning of my favorite
- 00:13:47one of Kafka's text their process the
- 00:13:49trial where basically this is all that
- 00:13:52is described about the location of the
- 00:13:54protagonists at the beginning but that's
- 00:13:55kinda where you need and you really
- 00:13:57don't know it just a lack of detail
- 00:13:58until you start to pay attention to it
- 00:14:03so
- 00:14:04this may seem rather far away from
- 00:14:07mental health
- 00:14:08but I guess I wanted to try to be honest
- 00:14:12about
- 00:14:13about this idea of usefulness what its
- 00:14:16essence is for me at the moment and that
- 00:14:19brings me to the question of why 1yr
- 00:14:22makes decisions about anything at all in
- 00:14:24life including about which academics
- 00:14:27things to study and I I think maybe
- 00:14:30there are there are three main options
- 00:14:32one is kind of queue stuff that you
- 00:14:35think has a good chance of making you
- 00:14:37happy quite soon
- 00:14:39the second option is to
- 00:14:42do things that may seem like they'll get
- 00:14:45your highest status or will help you
- 00:14:48tackle anxiety or feelings of low
- 00:14:50self-esteem or something for which
- 00:14:51actually don't do that and just make and
- 00:14:53not making you feel worse about yourself
- 00:14:55and then the third route is then is the
- 00:14:59the idea of finding stuff that's that
- 00:15:02gives you a sense of purpose and meaning
- 00:15:04that's not too easily assailable
- 00:15:06that you can just when you when you
- 00:15:09encounter that question that we all
- 00:15:10encounter from time to time not always
- 00:15:13in the middle of the night why am i
- 00:15:15bothering with any of this that there is
- 00:15:16quite a an easy ready-made answer to
- 00:15:18that
- 00:15:19so I feel like doing the standard you
- 00:15:23know creating new interpretations of
- 00:15:25text that no one actually cared about
- 00:15:27was was route to to which I was doing
- 00:15:31for quite a while and
- 00:15:33interdisciplinarity has been the way of
- 00:15:36shifting towards
- 00:15:37towards the happier kind of root 3 root
- 00:15:40one is also really appealing especially
- 00:15:41in California I I guess I haven't quite
- 00:15:45worked out what that would consist of
- 00:15:49so the
- 00:15:55so instance polarity has have been the
- 00:15:58means of making that transition to that
- 00:16:00third region I think the way that it's
- 00:16:02done that is by allowing me to
- 00:16:04start to answer questions that I
- 00:16:06couldn't with just a sort of mono
- 00:16:08disciplinary framework I think this in
- 00:16:10general is a good clue to the kind of
- 00:16:12interdisciplinarity that is worth paying
- 00:16:13attention to does it really do something
- 00:16:15that you couldn't without
- 00:16:18without all its constituent parts and so
- 00:16:22the questions that I began to ask in the
- 00:16:24doctorate or were questions then
- 00:16:25increasingly not about literary meanings
- 00:16:27but about literary effects or rather
- 00:16:30interactions between literature and and
- 00:16:32human minds and now if you like there's
- 00:16:35these questions have become kind of
- 00:16:37intermediate intermediate layers
- 00:16:40towards a second set of questions which
- 00:16:43are more about whether those whether
- 00:16:47there is responses emotional or
- 00:16:50interpretive or inferential
- 00:16:52or in terms of mental imagery whether
- 00:16:54those responses can have in turn
- 00:16:56knock-on effects that might be
- 00:16:58considered therapeutically valuable or
- 00:17:00indeed harmful so of course mental
- 00:17:04health is not the only kind of
- 00:17:07the only candidate for ready-made
- 00:17:11meaning I mean there are there are a
- 00:17:12vast number of
- 00:17:15problems questions things that need
- 00:17:17tackling in this strange world of ours
- 00:17:18but
- 00:17:20this is the one that I have chosen to
- 00:17:22care about and it's certainly a big
- 00:17:24problem I I won't bore you with sort of
- 00:17:26statistics about prevalence rates of
- 00:17:29mental illness or eating disorders in
- 00:17:31particular but they're high and they
- 00:17:32seem to be growing and they cost
- 00:17:35they cost governments and individuals a
- 00:17:37lot of money and they make people
- 00:17:38miserable and we we don't have a very
- 00:17:41good handle on how to have to deal with
- 00:17:43them so
- 00:17:44the situation is serious enough that
- 00:17:47bodies like the World Health
- 00:17:48Organization have been saying now in
- 00:17:50recent years we need to be taking a more
- 00:17:53multidisciplinary approach to this stuff
- 00:17:54we need to in particular take cultural
- 00:17:56factors more seriously and
- 00:17:59so this the current project of mine I
- 00:18:02guess is an attempt to to respond to
- 00:18:04that invitation than to
- 00:18:06to investigate what the role of culture
- 00:18:09might be in in this specific case of
- 00:18:11disordered eating so there are
- 00:18:14systematic logical reasons for choosing
- 00:18:16eating disorders and I'll come to those
- 00:18:18in a moment but I guess to be honest the
- 00:18:21primary reason is that I used to have
- 00:18:22one the crisis pre-doctoral that I
- 00:18:26mentioned was partly just a fact a
- 00:18:29function of being very ill and not
- 00:18:31really having the ability to to get an
- 00:18:34overview of what I was doing not having
- 00:18:36energy to
- 00:18:38contemplate you know three years of
- 00:18:40quite isolating and draining work on
- 00:18:42something that I didn't care about and
- 00:18:46happily I was sort of halfway through
- 00:18:48the doctorate I started to get better
- 00:18:50just in time to realize what a mess the
- 00:18:52thesis was not quite in time to be able
- 00:18:55to deal entirely with the mess but I got
- 00:18:57there in the end with the revisions of
- 00:18:59the book and I started to write a blog
- 00:19:03for Psychology Today
- 00:19:04which was from initially a very sort of
- 00:19:07autobiographical thing charting their
- 00:19:09process of my recovery and became more
- 00:19:13about trying to diffuse scientific and
- 00:19:15personal perspectives on
- 00:19:17disordered eating
- 00:19:19and this really has become the most
- 00:19:22important professional or
- 00:19:25semi-professional thing that I do I
- 00:19:27engage with a lot of readers on an
- 00:19:29almost daily basis and I feel that this
- 00:19:32is a way in which I can actually make a
- 00:19:33difference to people in a way that
- 00:19:35probably well certainly so far my
- 00:19:37academic work has not
- 00:19:39and in a way looking back it seems
- 00:19:42strange to me that it took so long but I
- 00:19:45a few years into my first postdoc
- 00:19:48position I started to think about
- 00:19:51well I suppose mainly it was because I
- 00:19:53was spending such a lot of time on the
- 00:19:54blog I thought maybe actually I can find
- 00:19:58some way of making it a legitimate
- 00:20:00academic activity somehow so I don't
- 00:20:02feel that you know there's lots of time
- 00:20:04being siphoned off into this thing that
- 00:20:06is not
- 00:20:08professionally advancing he so partly
- 00:20:11was that and partly just wanting to put
- 00:20:13together different areas of my quite
- 00:20:15disparate
- 00:20:15but I started to think about about the
- 00:20:18connections between between all that
- 00:20:20eating disorders stuff and the
- 00:20:21literature and then this gave rise to
- 00:20:24the the article that Dan mentioned which
- 00:20:27was
- 00:20:29which was prompted by Kafka short story
- 00:20:32a Hunger artist so this is the story
- 00:20:34about a man who is one of the
- 00:20:37nineteenth-century hunger artists who
- 00:20:39fast for other people's entertainment he
- 00:20:43got used to having big crowds watching
- 00:20:46him do his long fasts and the fast got
- 00:20:48longer and longer and more and more
- 00:20:49impressive and then gradually the people
- 00:20:50started to melt away and would just rush
- 00:20:53past his cage to see the animals who
- 00:20:55were doing exciting tricks and generally
- 00:20:57much more interesting to watch and yet
- 00:20:59he couldn't stop fasting and
- 00:21:01eventually he came close to death and
- 00:21:05the last word he spoke to thee over see
- 00:21:07it had been looking after him were a
- 00:21:10kind of
- 00:21:12resistance of admiration they said you
- 00:21:15shouldn't admire me because the only
- 00:21:17problem was I could never find any food
- 00:21:18that I wanted to eat otherwise I
- 00:21:19wouldn't have lasted and then he dies
- 00:21:21and then his cage is swept clean and in
- 00:21:24the cages put a
- 00:21:25wonderful lisam glowing with health
- 00:21:28panther who everyone flops to see and
- 00:21:31the end
- 00:21:34so this is
- 00:21:37my response to this story in the article
- 00:21:40was sort of guided by a an initial
- 00:21:42reaction about the oddity of the fact
- 00:21:45that although he's called The Hunger
- 00:21:46artists and in German poem as a verb
- 00:21:49means to fast although the now and is
- 00:21:52also hunger so he's described as The
- 00:21:55Hunger artist throughout but him being
- 00:21:56hungry is never mentioned even though he
- 00:21:59eventually starves to death and you I
- 00:22:00found it was as soon as I realized this
- 00:22:03I was interested that I'd not notice it
- 00:22:05before and use it as a basis for
- 00:22:07reflection reflecting upon the potential
- 00:22:09psychological effects of this text more
- 00:22:11generally and
- 00:22:13using the framework of cognitive realism
- 00:22:15to try and come to some conclusions
- 00:22:18about that but for me almost the center
- 00:22:21of the of the argument or one of the
- 00:22:23main propelling factors was the the
- 00:22:26critical literature that I came across
- 00:22:28in relation to this piece
- 00:22:31there's there's it's just to me it's all
- 00:22:35absolutely falling into Kafka's trap
- 00:22:38so people are taking the epithet The
- 00:22:42Hunger artists and assuming firstly that
- 00:22:45there isn't that he is a genuine artist
- 00:22:47that he is creating and actually you
- 00:22:50know perfectible and an admirable work
- 00:22:51of art which is to my mind not not
- 00:22:55intimated in the text at all then all
- 00:22:58kinds of
- 00:23:00morally weighted concepts like
- 00:23:03self-control here combined with purity
- 00:23:05are imposed onto the text which again
- 00:23:08are not given within it and in my mind
- 00:23:10incompatible with it
- 00:23:12then you get even more problematic stuff
- 00:23:14about how he's you know it's great that
- 00:23:17the children come and watch him because
- 00:23:19they may one day we're still fasting to
- 00:23:20its former glory and we should admire
- 00:23:22people who are all spirit and no flesh
- 00:23:24they're just there's this very
- 00:23:26unreflective
- 00:23:29responses to this this gap that Kafka is
- 00:23:33created between the title and the
- 00:23:37and the the rest of the textual content
- 00:23:39which has nothing to do with artistry
- 00:23:41and of course then as the popular move
- 00:23:45of just really returning everything to
- 00:23:47being about representation and about
- 00:23:49text reality which it's also kind of
- 00:23:51tedious
- 00:23:52[Music]
- 00:23:54so
- 00:23:55if you think I mean probably not many
- 00:23:58you know vulnerable teenagers or
- 00:24:00whatever would ever read this stuff but
- 00:24:01if they were to it probably wouldn't be
- 00:24:03particularly good for them and I suppose
- 00:24:05my yeah my prime motivator then was was
- 00:24:09a kind of anger about this actually an
- 00:24:11anger I guess relates back to that third
- 00:24:14root of you know having purpose and
- 00:24:17meaning in one's academic pursuits anger
- 00:24:21is is useful if it as long as it's
- 00:24:22combined with some other stuff in you
- 00:24:24know just thinking thinking through the
- 00:24:26the ramifications of what it means to to
- 00:24:29try and do more more good than harm with
- 00:24:31our our academic research and writing
- 00:24:36so this was where where the whole thing
- 00:24:38started and then the next step was to
- 00:24:40try and do some more empirical
- 00:24:44follow-up and in this kind of direction
- 00:24:47so I I got a six-month
- 00:24:50knowledge exchange fellowship I think
- 00:24:53knowledge exchange is probably not one
- 00:24:54of the academic buzzwords that has made
- 00:24:55it across the Atlantic so far the idea
- 00:24:58is public engagement or what we used to
- 00:25:01call so in order to transfer is a kind
- 00:25:03of top-down you know we dictate our
- 00:25:06wisdom to the general public and
- 00:25:09knowledge exchange then tries to make
- 00:25:10the relationship more reciprocal so it's
- 00:25:12about getting things back from
- 00:25:16non-academic partners or collaborators
- 00:25:18as well as giving to them so I start up
- 00:25:21a partnership with
- 00:25:23with the main UK eating disorders
- 00:25:26charity beat and
- 00:25:29yeah as I say it was only six months and
- 00:25:31probably the most significant lessons I
- 00:25:34learned this collaboration was that
- 00:25:37whatever you think you can do in six
- 00:25:39months you can probably do about half of
- 00:25:40that much and especially if you try to
- 00:25:43do empirical work there's hardly any
- 00:25:44time to anything but the main thing that
- 00:25:46we did accomplish was to run a major
- 00:25:49survey asking people about the
- 00:25:51relationships they perceived between
- 00:25:53between their reading habits on the one
- 00:25:55hand and their mental health on the
- 00:25:57other because of where we advertise it
- 00:25:59was primarily responded to by people
- 00:26:02with a personal history of disordered
- 00:26:04eating but not exclusively and I was
- 00:26:06just I was absolutely delighted and
- 00:26:08amazed by the number of responses that
- 00:26:10we had this was not a there's not a sort
- 00:26:12of simple you know ten part ten question
- 00:26:16questionnaires six-year-old questions
- 00:26:18and lots of space for free responses as
- 00:26:21well as multiple-choice stuff and we got
- 00:26:25885 responses all together which
- 00:26:29773 were people with a personal history
- 00:26:32and
- 00:26:33just a really that's a really quite
- 00:26:36touching amount of reflection and
- 00:26:38honesty that went into the responses so
- 00:26:40it's been an extremely rich dataset to
- 00:26:43work with and I'm really I'm only
- 00:26:46beginning to scratch the surface of what
- 00:26:47I think it can maybe start to teach us
- 00:26:49about
- 00:26:51about these this realm of interactions
- 00:26:54but in the rest of the talk I'll just
- 00:26:56give you a bit of a sense of the kind of
- 00:26:58things that I'm learning from it
- 00:27:00[Music]
- 00:27:02but first I'll backtrack briefly and
- 00:27:04just give you a couple of pointers as to
- 00:27:08why I think
- 00:27:09eating disorders and and fictional
- 00:27:12reading may make sense as a as a
- 00:27:14juxtaposition
- 00:27:15taking out the personal factors for now
- 00:27:18the first as I mentioned is is the
- 00:27:21relationship between culture and
- 00:27:24eating disorders
- 00:27:25they are they are probably them at the
- 00:27:28most obviously obvious case of cultural
- 00:27:31inflection in the sense that you know
- 00:27:34the the ways in which you're encouraged
- 00:27:36to think about body image and
- 00:27:39and diet and exercise and all these
- 00:27:41things are fairly sort of monolithically
- 00:27:48inflicted on us by you know what we
- 00:27:52might call the mass media
- 00:27:54this is probably getting more true also
- 00:27:57with other mental disorders now I gather
- 00:28:00from talking to two undergraduates that
- 00:28:02the same kind of things could similarly
- 00:28:05be said of depression certainly of
- 00:28:06self-harm that you know like Instagram
- 00:28:09is full of the chic of all these kind of
- 00:28:11things increasingly but
- 00:28:12but it's always been the case of this
- 00:28:15order teaching that there is this kind
- 00:28:16of bout of of stuff that makes things
- 00:28:19difficult and and so this is I think one
- 00:28:24one way of conceiving of the possible
- 00:28:28role of fiction as opposed to those
- 00:28:30other
- 00:28:31there's other manifestations of culture
- 00:28:34fiction might be doing something rather
- 00:28:37different
- 00:28:38so this this respondent who this was
- 00:28:41just an in response to the final
- 00:28:43question of the survey which is is there
- 00:28:45anything else you'd like to tell us
- 00:28:47talks about books and in particular
- 00:28:50fiction providing a transitional and
- 00:28:53creative space for expressing her own
- 00:28:55feelings
- 00:28:57offering a
- 00:28:59potential to go beyond her own
- 00:29:01experience and explore different
- 00:29:02possibilities without connecting from
- 00:29:05reality entirely
- 00:29:06so the therapeutic potential of fiction
- 00:29:10reading is made clear there and seems to
- 00:29:13be set up in opposition to you know the
- 00:29:15kind of stuff that that other
- 00:29:18manifestations of culture might provide
- 00:29:21of course then you've also got the flip
- 00:29:23side which is that you know there is no
- 00:29:26hard and fast line between cultural
- 00:29:30artifacts of one kind or another and
- 00:29:31books can be just as bad as anything
- 00:29:34else so the second persons is talking
- 00:29:36about
- 00:29:37fiction specifically about eating
- 00:29:40disorders so with a character a main
- 00:29:41character who has
- 00:29:43anorexia I think in this case
- 00:29:45and she talks about how she you cease
- 00:29:49eating the sort of fiction to to
- 00:29:53basically learn how to do the eating
- 00:29:55sort of better and once she found the
- 00:29:57prayer anorexia community online she
- 00:29:59knew non beneath the books but they're
- 00:30:00basically equivalent
- 00:30:03so that's one the cultural side of
- 00:30:05things is one kind of
- 00:30:08motivation for looking at these things
- 00:30:10in interaction with each other the
- 00:30:12second is the the very significant role
- 00:30:15of embodiment in in eating disorders
- 00:30:18even more so than perhaps with many
- 00:30:20other mental health conditions you know
- 00:30:23I guess that the role of embodiment is
- 00:30:26different amongst the different soldiers
- 00:30:27isn't perhaps the most clear in anorexia
- 00:30:29where starvation just has a very
- 00:30:31systemic and profound set of effects on
- 00:30:34on the way that the mind works but the
- 00:30:38same can be said of bulimia with the
- 00:30:40kind of binging and purging cycles that
- 00:30:43develop or with compulsive overeating
- 00:30:46binge eating and so on as soon as the as
- 00:30:50soon as the embody system starts to
- 00:30:51break down there are knock-on effects on
- 00:30:54psychological functioning
- 00:30:56so this is this has a couple of
- 00:31:02consequences that are irrelevant here
- 00:31:04one of them is
- 00:31:05the
- 00:31:07the potential for
- 00:31:09because because embodiment and the
- 00:31:12simple physical deterioration are so
- 00:31:14significant we can actually identify a
- 00:31:18potentially important role for things
- 00:31:20that change attitudes that might then
- 00:31:22lead to changes in behavior like
- 00:31:24basically the the initial stages of
- 00:31:26recovery from anorexia are not
- 00:31:27complicated all you need to do is just
- 00:31:29eat more consistently and whatever gives
- 00:31:31you motivation to do that in the initial
- 00:31:33phase will help you along a lot so if we
- 00:31:38think that there might be the potential
- 00:31:39for fiction to to play a role in
- 00:31:41changing attitudes and
- 00:31:43creating the possibility for behaviors
- 00:31:45then that could be quite significant
- 00:31:47whereas something like depression
- 00:31:49perhaps the the behavioral changes have
- 00:31:51a less a less direct and immediate
- 00:31:53effect
- 00:31:54and then the other the other sort of
- 00:31:57much more general point is about these
- 00:31:59these feedback structures
- 00:32:02this is
- 00:32:04an adapted version of them of a
- 00:32:07cognitive behavioral
- 00:32:09model of a restrictive eating disorder
- 00:32:12so here you see the the interactions
- 00:32:14that can develop between thought
- 00:32:17patterns and
- 00:32:18behaviors like eating or exercising and
- 00:32:21body weight and then mood and social
- 00:32:24interactions the whole the whole lots
- 00:32:25are and probably there should be lots
- 00:32:27more areas as well but there are complex
- 00:32:32interactions that can develop here in in
- 00:32:34this case the
- 00:32:36the states in the boxes are not weighted
- 00:32:39so this could be
- 00:32:42this could be understood as simply
- 00:32:45representing the situation of a healthy
- 00:32:47person there won't be the perturbations
- 00:32:50will be small the mutual effects will
- 00:32:53balance each other out but then if you
- 00:32:55look at the the kind of the weighted
- 00:32:56version where you've got disturbances
- 00:32:58you've got over influence of you know
- 00:33:01preoccupation with with body shape and
- 00:33:03weight for example which will lead to
- 00:33:05the restriction and to other
- 00:33:07compensating behaviors which will push
- 00:33:10down the weight which will increase the
- 00:33:12obsessiveness and the withdrawal and you
- 00:33:14can see how easily the
- 00:33:17the positive feedback here so positive
- 00:33:20feedback in the sense of a self
- 00:33:21amplifying loop how quickly that
- 00:33:24develops in someone who is vulnerable to
- 00:33:27illness or already ill so if we have
- 00:33:30that basic model then of the of the kind
- 00:33:32of mind-body interactions then and we
- 00:33:35can create a very simplified version of
- 00:33:36it here
- 00:33:38then this is
- 00:33:40not a great leap to start to think about
- 00:33:43how culture might start to play a role
- 00:33:46how it might not only provide inputs
- 00:33:50into the system but then
- 00:33:52more integrally actually function as
- 00:33:54part of the system that is is
- 00:33:56serving both of course and those effect
- 00:33:58and you know helping drive this leap and
- 00:34:01certainly these
- 00:34:04these kinds of feedback interactions are
- 00:34:07they come up all the time in the in the
- 00:34:09survey responses people talking about
- 00:34:12how
- 00:34:13feeling worse on a particular day makes
- 00:34:16the move likely to engage with fictional
- 00:34:18characters in a in a particularly you
- 00:34:20know eating a sort of filtered way and
- 00:34:22how that makes them turn worse this
- 00:34:24comes up with in terms of emotional
- 00:34:27engagement with with the characters in
- 00:34:28terms of the way that the characters
- 00:34:31bodies are described
- 00:34:33in the very specific terms also of just
- 00:34:36trying to get tips about how to not eat
- 00:34:39or how to rid oneself of the food that
- 00:34:41one has eaten and so there's lots of
- 00:34:44lots of these loops at play here and
- 00:34:50so I think
- 00:34:52this provides quite a strong basis for
- 00:34:54for starting to explore in greater depth
- 00:34:57you know what is it that
- 00:35:02gosh that's a very busy slide sorry
- 00:35:05what are the constituents
- 00:35:08what are the reasons about ships of
- 00:35:10cause and effect that they're important
- 00:35:12here so this is just I I wanted to try
- 00:35:15and give just some examples of the
- 00:35:17quantitative side of the analysis I've
- 00:35:18done so I've identified just on the
- 00:35:20basis of me sitting down and and trying
- 00:35:23to basically close read the qualitative
- 00:35:25results here I've identified 19
- 00:35:28different types of feedback positive
- 00:35:30feedback
- 00:35:31so self amplifying times most of which
- 00:35:35are end up being
- 00:35:38exacerbating the meeting is sort of a
- 00:35:40not all
- 00:35:42and on the the right-hand column and you
- 00:35:45can see how many examples of testimony
- 00:35:48from the survey respondents are given
- 00:35:50for each type so I'm sorry is they're
- 00:35:54not helping but it is kind of off the
- 00:35:55side of the screen a little bit but they
- 00:35:58you can see examples here just a very
- 00:36:02basic example like if I feel worse then
- 00:36:05I read a certain kind of book and then I
- 00:36:07feel worse again and then
- 00:36:11everything goes into a downward spiral
- 00:36:13of a vicious circle or conversely it
- 00:36:16could be the opposite and reading could
- 00:36:18could be part of a positive feedback
- 00:36:20loop in and actually positive direction
- 00:36:23then there are there are lots of
- 00:36:26examples of how mood and self-esteem and
- 00:36:28body image interact with the reading
- 00:36:30process
- 00:36:31lots also along with as I they are self
- 00:36:34triggering so I was really quite shocked
- 00:36:38by the number of people who have
- 00:36:40completely lucid awareness of the fact
- 00:36:43that they they seek out text that they
- 00:36:45know are going to make them feel worse
- 00:36:46and indeed they do and then they get
- 00:36:49worse and then they look out more text
- 00:36:51could be or even more stuck in that
- 00:36:53mindset so
- 00:36:54lots of examples of this kind of thing
- 00:36:57going on
- 00:36:59then there are also fewer but some
- 00:37:03examples of negative feedbacks there's a
- 00:37:05small table on the right
- 00:37:06are examples of where a new input
- 00:37:11actually then
- 00:37:15breaks into the feedback loop and
- 00:37:17creates a if you like a calming effect
- 00:37:21so
- 00:37:24in the case of in the therapy suitcase
- 00:37:27then prevents this vicious circle of
- 00:37:31feeling bad reading in some way feeling
- 00:37:34worse
- 00:37:34so this these examples so
- 00:37:38for example one person who talks about
- 00:37:40when she's attempted to stop to stop
- 00:37:43eating in the anorexic context she she
- 00:37:47knows what kind of books will help her
- 00:37:49to eat so she goes and looks at them
- 00:37:51then she feels less anxious and then she
- 00:37:53can she's more like he's failed to be
- 00:37:55like that kind of thing is obviously
- 00:37:56very relevant to how he might get
- 00:37:58conceived of the
- 00:38:00the role of of fiction reading in
- 00:38:03therapy and I've given just a couple of
- 00:38:05of courses examples here
- 00:38:08both for
- 00:38:10negative feedback in in the first
- 00:38:13example feeling low reading men feeling
- 00:38:16better and
- 00:38:18then positive feedback in the in the
- 00:38:20second example
- 00:38:23feeling bad
- 00:38:29reading feeling more depressed and
- 00:38:32then actually
- 00:38:35part of the eating disorder resistance
- 00:38:37to the reading being that it's just
- 00:38:39about being physically still and so
- 00:38:41reading then also being so sorry yeah I
- 00:38:45really know I messed up they expected
- 00:38:46that so the person was saying that the
- 00:38:48reading can be good but when whenever
- 00:38:50she starts to read beating sort of kicks
- 00:38:52in and says actually you know being lazy
- 00:38:55by sitting reading you should be
- 00:38:56exercising so through the positive
- 00:38:57effects of the reading are prevented
- 00:38:59from from happening and I think I mean I
- 00:39:05hope I
- 00:39:06really want to make sure that
- 00:39:09for me eating disorders are just one
- 00:39:11they are just a case study they're not
- 00:39:13meant to be the whole the whole story
- 00:39:15when it comes to thinking about
- 00:39:18about the role of
- 00:39:20fiction reading in in health and I think
- 00:39:23I
- 00:39:24think feedback is a good is a good
- 00:39:27concept for
- 00:39:28broadening our games beyond eating
- 00:39:32disorders because we can think about
- 00:39:33feedback in in so many of the other
- 00:39:35processes that are part of reading from
- 00:39:38from the the just the perceptual and
- 00:39:41cognitive act of reading any text so
- 00:39:44there's this interesting work that shows
- 00:39:45that kind of discourse level of
- 00:39:48interpretation actually can have direct
- 00:39:51effects back on the on the visual
- 00:39:53processing level so from that kind of
- 00:39:57more low level
- 00:40:00processing realm then we also see
- 00:40:03feedback at high levels and I this is my
- 00:40:05sort of preliminary tend to think about
- 00:40:07how fiction might differ from nonfiction
- 00:40:10in terms of its feedback structures the
- 00:40:13idea being that perhaps the greatest
- 00:40:16sort of referential purpose of non
- 00:40:19fictional texts the fact there they're
- 00:40:21pointing to something beyond the text
- 00:40:22that is
- 00:40:23relatively
- 00:40:26relatively clear-cut and not subject to
- 00:40:28a million different interpretive
- 00:40:29possibilities might mean that there's
- 00:40:31more negative feedback where so if you
- 00:40:33if you go down a stupid train of
- 00:40:36interpretive thought then you'll be
- 00:40:38probably brought back quite quite
- 00:40:39quickly by just something else that
- 00:40:42comes next in the text that makes clear
- 00:40:43that was stupid whereas in the fictional
- 00:40:45context because because the
- 00:40:47possibilities of Association are so much
- 00:40:49broader there might be a much greater
- 00:40:51possibility for for positive feedback to
- 00:40:54take in and to go unchecked especially
- 00:40:57in in solitary reading which is
- 00:40:59obviously how we tend to do it now if
- 00:41:01you're reading in a group you might have
- 00:41:03other people come chiming in and saying
- 00:41:04actually no that doesn't make sense
- 00:41:05because that's why is that whereas you
- 00:41:08reading on your own and these
- 00:41:10interpretive loops can perhaps kind of
- 00:41:12spiral out of control in the way that I
- 00:41:13think happens with those critical
- 00:41:16responses to Kafka's story they're just
- 00:41:17they're kind of off in their own world
- 00:41:19of interpretive
- 00:41:20self-indulgence if you'd like and and
- 00:41:23they're not really anything much to do
- 00:41:24the text anymore
- 00:41:26so there we can perhaps think about
- 00:41:28about those structures as relevant to
- 00:41:31the study of
- 00:41:33of literature and also definitely of
- 00:41:35performative arts as well
- 00:41:39so I said I would I
- 00:41:42would say a little bit about their
- 00:41:44current safely research it does seem
- 00:41:46because there are such obvious reasons
- 00:41:47why why there might be relevance of this
- 00:41:49kind it does seem strange to me that
- 00:41:51more research hasn't been done
- 00:41:53but unfortunately a lot more
- 00:41:55bibliotherapy as it's often called is
- 00:41:57practiced and it is
- 00:41:59investigated so this is just one example
- 00:42:02of a kind of commercial manifestation of
- 00:42:05compare therapy School of Life in London
- 00:42:08there to be fair they're not actually
- 00:42:09claiming that their video therapy will
- 00:42:11solve your mental health problems but
- 00:42:14they're charging a good amount for
- 00:42:16sessions with busier therapists who are
- 00:42:18not trained in anything other than they
- 00:42:19like books and
- 00:42:21it seems to me a little bit problematic
- 00:42:26psychiatrists Jonathan Dexter's as
- 00:42:28talked about the unfortunate nature of
- 00:42:31this
- 00:42:34priority of belief over
- 00:42:37rigorous research and
- 00:42:39as I said at the beginning like there
- 00:42:41are there are obvious reasons why
- 00:42:43particularly people who are invested in
- 00:42:45the study of which I might want to
- 00:42:46believe that it can be helpful but
- 00:42:49as I think I've already made clear there
- 00:42:52and they're also reason to think that
- 00:42:54helpfulness is not all it can do and
- 00:42:57also beyond the basic question of good
- 00:42:59or harm what are what are the mechanisms
- 00:43:01this is something that there is really
- 00:43:03very little evidence on there's quite a
- 00:43:05bit of empirical evidence of efficacy of
- 00:43:09self-help there via therapy so just
- 00:43:11reading relevant self-help books
- 00:43:14but even there the evidence on
- 00:43:16mechanisms how how this is actually
- 00:43:19helping is pretty minimal and when you
- 00:43:20come to creative there do therapy or
- 00:43:22using fiction or poetry or drama
- 00:43:26the the evidence is very slim indeed
- 00:43:29there's quite
- 00:43:30few very well-known or classic theories
- 00:43:32of
- 00:43:33the supposed mechanisms
- 00:43:36but there's not really any evidence for
- 00:43:39any of them except the last one there
- 00:43:41are there are some experiments have been
- 00:43:43done to suggest that
- 00:43:46the issue in reducing defensiveness and
- 00:43:49gaining insight and then committing to
- 00:43:51change might be important but really a
- 00:43:56lot of work still needs to be done and a
- 00:44:00characteristic of of a lot of the
- 00:44:03theorizing in this area is that very
- 00:44:05broad
- 00:44:06concepts are bandied around without much
- 00:44:08attempt to
- 00:44:10to define what what is meant by them
- 00:44:13this this paper is actually a good
- 00:44:14example this is a
- 00:44:15systematic review of the evidence for
- 00:44:19creative video therapy in developmental
- 00:44:21issues amongst adolescents
- 00:44:24it's so it's doing something systematic
- 00:44:27to them when it comes suspect anything
- 00:44:28about the about the mechanisms you know
- 00:44:30got things like reframing and empathy
- 00:44:32and identification which which are big
- 00:44:35things that have have been have started
- 00:44:38to be studied properly in in the
- 00:44:40cognitive literary realm but really are
- 00:44:43not unpacked at all here and this is one
- 00:44:45reason why I think bringing CSI into
- 00:44:48things could be really useful because we
- 00:44:50have we can start to think about how
- 00:44:52empathy related system sympathy and to
- 00:44:54trust and to all these other kinds of
- 00:44:58terms that can remain very very vague in
- 00:45:01moralistic if we if we let them
- 00:45:03[Music]
- 00:45:05so this was just I will I think I'll cut
- 00:45:10this short but this is just a bit of
- 00:45:12evidence about the potential of these
- 00:45:14texts to do harm as well as good and so
- 00:45:16why we should resist those easy
- 00:45:18assumptions and somewhat slightly more
- 00:45:22detailed findings on these four
- 00:45:23dimensions
- 00:45:24which I chose us the sort of key ones
- 00:45:27that might be relevant to investigate
- 00:45:28you can see here basically the very same
- 00:45:33difference between the section about
- 00:45:34eating disorders where the vast majority
- 00:45:37of people report very negative effects
- 00:45:40from reading it on all form dimensions
- 00:45:42and then the much more mixed picture
- 00:45:43when people talking about the effects
- 00:45:45think they prefer to read that's not
- 00:45:47about eating disorders where there's
- 00:45:49very strong effects on mood in the
- 00:45:51positive direction but the other things
- 00:45:52are a slightly more variable
- 00:45:56as you might expect and I just I include
- 00:46:00this great just to show that you know
- 00:46:02the potential for harm applies
- 00:46:04absolutely to the to the Canon you know
- 00:46:07whether it comes in Austin or in the
- 00:46:10Twilight series or whatever it's the
- 00:46:12idea that you should when you're unhappy
- 00:46:16stop eating can be a dangerous one if
- 00:46:19you're susceptible to it for whatever
- 00:46:20reason beforehand
- 00:46:23and this was then are kind of as if
- 00:46:26they're very preliminary attempt to
- 00:46:27think about mechanisms so people are
- 00:46:30reporting these are these are multiple
- 00:46:32choice so
- 00:46:34people could
- 00:46:37select multiple options here but you can
- 00:46:40see that like all of them seem to have
- 00:46:42some potential relevance and I think it
- 00:46:45just shows that there's there's really a
- 00:46:46lot more to do in terms of getting past
- 00:46:49this this basic theoretical assumption
- 00:46:51that the goal of reading should be to
- 00:46:54increase insight which to me is
- 00:46:58it's bound to be sort of questionable in
- 00:47:02any realm but I think in the in the case
- 00:47:03of eating disorders it's particularly so
- 00:47:05perhaps because a lot of people myself
- 00:47:08included
- 00:47:10manifests in the past and manifest a
- 00:47:13very high degree of insight into their
- 00:47:15condition but total inability to act on
- 00:47:17my insight and so maybe maybe giving
- 00:47:20insight into the condition which would
- 00:47:22be promoted most effectively by reading
- 00:47:26something that relates very closely to
- 00:47:28your own condition which is something
- 00:47:29that the theorists often talk about
- 00:47:32maybe that's actually less useful than
- 00:47:34just you know reading stuff that open
- 00:47:36your mind to other possibilities
- 00:47:38so
- 00:47:42as I say there's a lot more to be found
- 00:47:44out here and I think it's important not
- 00:47:46to not to jump to overly rapid
- 00:47:49conclusions I
- 00:47:54will just conclude with a brief anecdote
- 00:47:57about
- 00:47:59about the partnership that I had with
- 00:48:02with the charity
- 00:48:04one of the I
- 00:48:07suppose one of the implications of what
- 00:48:10I've been saying is that and which I
- 00:48:13just want to clarify I don't really mean
- 00:48:14is that these survey data should be
- 00:48:17taken at face value obviously they're
- 00:48:19only there any self-report there are any
- 00:48:21people's own insights into what they
- 00:48:23think is going on and I think it's kind
- 00:48:26of quite dangerous to take them
- 00:48:29to take them literally without inquiring
- 00:48:32in a more expanded experimental fashion
- 00:48:34into the actual relationships of cause
- 00:48:37and effect
- 00:48:38if we don't do that we get kind of into
- 00:48:41the realm of of the whole idea of
- 00:48:43triggering and the sense that if people
- 00:48:46say that they are upset by something
- 00:48:47that means they necessarily shouldn't do
- 00:48:49engage with it and they should perhaps
- 00:48:50even have been protected from it and
- 00:48:53this is this is something that beats and
- 00:48:56I sort of ended up arguing quite a bit
- 00:48:58about because well actually we didn't
- 00:49:00argue because they weren't willing to
- 00:49:01but it turned out that my blog
- 00:49:04contravenes their guidelines for how
- 00:49:07that the media should represent eating
- 00:49:08disorders so
- 00:49:11they they said that if the partnership
- 00:49:14was go on I can i couldn't mention the
- 00:49:17the collaboration on the blog and sort
- 00:49:19of had to keep them very separate from
- 00:49:21each other which was a shame
- 00:49:22but it it was mainly a shame that they
- 00:49:25weren't willing to engage and sort of
- 00:49:27think about the evidence base for those
- 00:49:30guidelines which was it was empirical
- 00:49:32but it was only survey based and quite
- 00:49:34small and to think about the broader
- 00:49:36questions if you know what how I think
- 00:49:39about cost-benefit relationships and you
- 00:49:41know how to
- 00:49:45how to do I suppose their their idea was
- 00:49:49basically first do no harm whereas my
- 00:49:52idea was more about how might we balance
- 00:49:54the potential harm a potential good or
- 00:49:57just
- 00:49:58more generally try to investigate what's
- 00:50:00what's really going on so I guess these
- 00:50:03kind of thing is very easy to take for
- 00:50:05granted that everyone will take an
- 00:50:07academic perspective on it and of course
- 00:50:08why should they they're a charity so
- 00:50:11their priority is different
- 00:50:15just a final concluding few thoughts
- 00:50:18about about where
- 00:50:20cognitive literary dialogue might be
- 00:50:23particularly useful I think narrative
- 00:50:25perspective is one of the one of the big
- 00:50:27questions I've been thinking about for a
- 00:50:29while and about about which there are
- 00:50:31also many assumptions
- 00:50:32primarily the one that you know the
- 00:50:34first person kind of draws you in more
- 00:50:35than the third person there is certainly
- 00:50:39some evidence that this may be the case
- 00:50:41in terms of sympathy and Trust and
- 00:50:43things but we we need to know a lot more
- 00:50:46about this and I wonder whether whether
- 00:50:48I think differences in perspective could
- 00:50:49be actually quite significant in in
- 00:50:52changing people's attitudes towards
- 00:50:54things that happen in the text and in
- 00:50:57there are knives then coming back to the
- 00:51:00stuff about cognitive realism that I've
- 00:51:02talked about in the beginning
- 00:51:03there's the question of descriptive
- 00:51:05style and whether I
- 00:51:08guess the the default intuition would be
- 00:51:12that the more detailed description of
- 00:51:16for example an emaciated body or
- 00:51:18whatever the more
- 00:51:19potentially detrimental effects there
- 00:51:21could be the you know the more vivid the
- 00:51:23mental imagery then under
- 00:51:26the greater the danger of a kind of
- 00:51:28triggered response but actually I think
- 00:51:30maybe a very fleeting mention of
- 00:51:33someone's you know beautifully slim
- 00:51:34physique or something could be just as
- 00:51:36powerful so what is the kind of
- 00:51:38relationship between those things and
- 00:51:40then there's metaphor as well which came
- 00:51:43up in my description of
- 00:51:45the critical responses to the Hunger
- 00:51:47artists the idea of purity of strength
- 00:51:51of cleanliness all the all these things
- 00:51:53are very powerful in the in the eating
- 00:51:55does a little realm conceptual metaphor
- 00:51:57theory and things like that give us my
- 00:51:59purchase there's also interesting
- 00:52:01evidence about the relationship between
- 00:52:02moral judgments and physical cleansing
- 00:52:05for example
- 00:52:06so if we're thinking about textual
- 00:52:09manifestations of certain attitudes or
- 00:52:12judgments are they actually
- 00:52:16more effective in a real-world sense
- 00:52:18when they're conveyed through those
- 00:52:19particular metaphors of
- 00:52:23of the eating disorder constellation
- 00:52:27so I will leave it there I hope I hope
- 00:52:31I've managed to convey two things
- 00:52:32firstly that eating disorders are really
- 00:52:35not the only thing going in this area I
- 00:52:38don't I kind of hate the talks where you
- 00:52:41feel like they they've grabbed all the
- 00:52:42good territory for themselves and
- 00:52:43there's nothing else for you to do and
- 00:52:45say that's brilliant why don't you care
- 00:52:47I'm doing it so I mean any any of the
- 00:52:50big questions that one can think about
- 00:52:51from climate change to religious
- 00:52:53extremism to you know all the big
- 00:52:55candidates I think there's a role for
- 00:52:57for culture for literary and and
- 00:53:00dramatic and performative culture to
- 00:53:03for our understanding is that to make a
- 00:53:05difference in in tackling these things
- 00:53:07and the second is this is this rather
- 00:53:09complex relationship between the person
- 00:53:11and the academic once you kind of
- 00:53:13acknowledge that you have biases and you
- 00:53:15have
- 00:53:16predilections and and commitments and so
- 00:53:18on then what do you do i
- 00:53:20i wide and putting together this talk
- 00:53:23about how how legitimate it is to to
- 00:53:26bring this stuff in how it reflects on
- 00:53:28me and a lot in the writing i doing now
- 00:53:31I'm want to you know site a blog post
- 00:53:34alongside all the peer-reviewed articles
- 00:53:36and things but is that you know what
- 00:53:38does that say about me all the fields or
- 00:53:40whatever but I hope that this kind of
- 00:53:43interaction between the cognitive and
- 00:53:45the Medical Humanities might might start
- 00:53:47to take the initiative on this and find
- 00:53:49ways of being creative you know we have
- 00:53:50to given the internet exists and these
- 00:53:53boundaries are all becoming more blurred
- 00:53:54all the time but for now it's it's
- 00:53:57really nice for me to be finally
- 00:53:59convinced that you know science doesn't
- 00:54:01have all the answers and randomized
- 00:54:03controlled trials are great but we need
- 00:54:04to we need to make our own changes to
- 00:54:08how those methods are conceived or
- 00:54:10learned and practiced
- 00:54:12so yeah I guess basically it's nice to
- 00:54:16feel that
- 00:54:16CSI has some usefulness but I have
- 00:54:20talked about it also
- 00:54:32[Music]
- 00:54:52[Music]
- 00:54:58but I you to realize that you were
- 00:55:01getting too specific about ten years and
- 00:55:03that people
- 00:55:05and
- 00:55:07reading habits so a new part I would ask
- 00:55:11you if part of your work is to diagnose
- 00:55:14disorders
- 00:55:28impossible maybe Corrections were
- 00:55:49very closely individual cases but
- 00:56:00change
- 00:56:09yeah like reading disorders I
- 00:56:12yeah it's very clear from reading
- 00:56:15people's thoughts about the stuff that
- 00:56:19that the shear strength of the
- 00:56:21interpretive filter that so easily gets
- 00:56:23applied to what's being read is almost
- 00:56:27that ways any other factor and lots of
- 00:56:29people said that it almost doesn't
- 00:56:32matter what what text they're reading
- 00:56:34because they bring so much stuff to it
- 00:56:36that they'll filter out anything that's
- 00:56:38that's not relevant and they'll just
- 00:56:40take what they wanted an interpretation
- 00:56:43is is
- 00:56:46is kind of at the center actually I
- 00:56:48didn't really get into it cuz I I still
- 00:56:51find it hard to talk about in a both
- 00:56:53concise and clear way but I think
- 00:56:55there's the interpretation is
- 00:56:57another of these things that's hugely I
- 00:57:00mean this is the bedrock of humanities
- 00:57:03practice and yet it's very rarely
- 00:57:05enquired into as a as an object inquiry
- 00:57:07itself and I think
- 00:57:12there's a kind of spectrum on which one
- 00:57:14could see interpretive
- 00:57:16practice in the cognitive sense
- 00:57:20in in the mental health realm so you've
- 00:57:23got conditions like schizophrenia where
- 00:57:25there's a very hyper scenic or you know
- 00:57:27tendency to over interpret the world
- 00:57:31so kind of a very extreme degree and
- 00:57:34then the other end you've got things
- 00:57:36like Parkinson's disease disease where
- 00:57:38interpretive salience is very much
- 00:57:40dampened down and then I guess eating
- 00:57:43disorders inhabit kind of both poles at
- 00:57:44once where some some things are really
- 00:57:47interpretive significance is really over
- 00:57:49attributed to them and other in other
- 00:57:50cases it's it's it's ignored and and the
- 00:57:54interpretation doesn't doesn't kick in
- 00:57:57so I think maybe that's
- 00:57:59that's something where
- 00:58:02maybe that's the central point where
- 00:58:04these these ideas can actually
- 00:58:07meet and illuminate each other if we I
- 00:58:10think the need to understand really what
- 00:58:14better what we mean by interpretation
- 00:58:16water its precursors what my various
- 00:58:18potential effects what what the things
- 00:58:20counters interpretation or not I think
- 00:58:22that could be a really productive way to
- 00:58:23go and would get at the the idea of the
- 00:58:27the reading disorder that's not it's not
- 00:58:29the same as an eating disorder or
- 00:58:31depression or whatever else but it
- 00:58:34but it bears a close and and fraught
- 00:58:37relationship with it with those whose
- 00:58:38other conditions potentially and the
- 00:58:42question about history yeah this I mean
- 00:58:44this gets right to the to the nub of
- 00:58:46what the empirical the empirically
- 00:58:50minded literary studies domain can and
- 00:58:53can't do
- 00:58:56unfortunately you can't do
- 00:58:58controlled experiments with historical
- 00:59:00readers so all you can do is look at it
- 00:59:03look at testimony this has been passed
- 00:59:06down to us from them so to that extent
- 00:59:09you know cause and effect will always
- 00:59:12remain somewhat opaque because you can
- 00:59:14never go and go in and do the control
- 00:59:15condition
- 00:59:17but maybe that's I don't know maybe that
- 00:59:20is a slightly - making this a better
- 00:59:21thing he might sit on the other hand I
- 00:59:23think it's important to bear in mind the
- 00:59:24limitations of what we can can't there
- 00:59:26about people who are now dead i
- 00:59:29I suppose I'm trying to keep my sites a
- 00:59:32little bit more modest at the moment but
- 00:59:36certainly a kind of a more a broader
- 00:59:39cultural investigation would be would be
- 00:59:42fascinating to do I mean there's lots of
- 00:59:43interesting historical work on
- 00:59:45disordered eating and of course on the
- 00:59:47kind of history of reading and so on but
- 00:59:49it feels a bit terrifyingly daunting to
- 00:59:52try and put them together right now I've
- 00:59:54been just that have you had any thoughts
- 00:59:55about where one might start but yeah
- 00:59:58that's for another decade
- 01:00:01yeah thank you very much for such a rich
- 01:00:04talk and a fascinating project it's the
- 01:00:07kind of thing I need to think a lot more
- 01:00:09about before I can ask anything sort of
- 01:00:11really meaningful but I have just the
- 01:00:13infant piece of information I'd like
- 01:00:16which have to do with the age of your
- 01:00:20respondents which I work at age service
- 01:00:22are expecting and assume that it's it's
- 01:00:25mainly young women it's women and the
- 01:00:27other gender question yeah versus man
- 01:00:30yeah but I wondered whether any older
- 01:00:32people responded me whether you're
- 01:00:34studying with the difference between
- 01:00:36responses that kind of a first gender
- 01:00:38bias responses and secondly yes
- 01:00:44yeah I definitely plan to as you say
- 01:00:48sadly the but as is as is typical and in
- 01:00:53this kind of area it was primarily young
- 01:00:55so up to mid 30s women who who responded
- 01:01:01and I haven't done I haven't actually
- 01:01:04broken down the analysis by age yet or
- 01:01:06buying it doesn't really make sense to
- 01:01:08do it by sex probably because they're
- 01:01:11just so few men but but we did have it a
- 01:01:15decent number like more than a handful
- 01:01:17of of older women I mean I think the
- 01:01:21oldest was was in her 80s but she was
- 01:01:24sort of the only one in that decade but
- 01:01:25then there were quite a few from some
- 01:01:28kind of middle-age spread so
- 01:01:31that is definitely something that I
- 01:01:33would I would like to look into more I
- 01:01:35think
- 01:01:37I don't know whether you have any
- 01:01:39predictions about how interpretive
- 01:01:40habits might might change but
- 01:01:44I'd have thought that there might be I
- 01:01:48don't know perhaps this
- 01:01:51perhaps the relationship between
- 01:01:55the very narrowing filter of the eating
- 01:01:58disorder and the sort of expensive
- 01:02:00possibilities that that fiction opens up
- 01:02:02might be somewhat different when you
- 01:02:04have more life experience so
- 01:02:06ya know definitely work for future yeah
- 01:02:10I
- 01:02:12enjoyed your talk and this is not a
- 01:02:16scientific observation but it does
- 01:02:19pertain you concept it is 38 and then if
- 01:02:23you're struggling with which is to what
- 01:02:25extent the perfect you know personalize
- 01:02:27me academically we all do that
- 01:02:29beings were conveyed by that majority
- 01:02:32what I mean I lose a brother I was
- 01:02:36struck by the the chart we showed
- 01:02:40well that were put off by the literature
- 01:02:42that adult explicitly meaning to sort of
- 01:02:44do and literature that didn't you know
- 01:02:47as a medical ethicist and
- 01:02:50someone who is
- 01:02:52trying to get my students to think about
- 01:02:56other people I use fiction specifically
- 01:03:00with a purpose literature and
- 01:03:01specifically fiction for the purpose of
- 01:03:03getting people to get outside themselves
- 01:03:04to adults you know in the natural way
- 01:03:08the perspective of people
- 01:03:11I think the therapeutic part is is the
- 01:03:17ease with which even though it requires
- 01:03:20patience literature can take you outside
- 01:03:23yourself not just into a fantasy world
- 01:03:25but away from you and all the minutiae
- 01:03:28and the nagging and I mean I've actually
- 01:03:32you know again this is unscientific but
- 01:03:35you know I've made the claim in the past
- 01:03:37that it's does the SP and also kind of
- 01:03:40kept kind of therapy not you know any
- 01:03:42other kind of
- 01:03:44so I think
- 01:04:00[Music]
- 01:04:01that my remark is potentially
- 01:04:04controversial because I don't want you
- 01:04:07playing the victim and I don't want to
- 01:04:09do anything I will take her and away
- 01:04:11from you know some form of coding how I
- 01:04:14like to know this unique thing about not
- 01:04:17suffering from that he or she is
- 01:04:20but I guess this is a sort of
- 01:04:23questioning what do you make of your
- 01:04:26respondents who claimed the explicit
- 01:04:31attention to the things which they were
- 01:04:32doing didn't make them feel better and
- 01:04:34it's there something I need this this
- 01:04:37pertains to your ready-made meaning
- 01:04:39category and other regard would be
- 01:04:42incidents about how they world I mean
- 01:04:45not to blame the victim but you know is
- 01:04:47this and many other kinds of things from
- 01:04:50which we suffer I resolve there's some
- 01:04:52form of self-absorption not to be
- 01:04:55conjugated
- 01:04:55question yes gosh that's a lot of really
- 01:05:00interesting ideas i
- 01:05:02what do I make of
- 01:05:06their testimony along along those lines
- 01:05:09I I
- 01:05:10think there's probably a an issue of
- 01:05:13time scale I mean I can completely
- 01:05:15imagine that in the short potentially to
- 01:05:19medium term
- 01:05:20reading this stuff makes you feel worse
- 01:05:23makes you feel more preoccupied with it
- 01:05:26you feel that it is just unequivocally
- 01:05:28done you harm
- 01:05:30but I think part of the
- 01:05:32the trajectory of mental illness is
- 01:05:34often to to come to a realization about
- 01:05:37just how life is when you're ill
- 01:05:39and then be motivated to do something
- 01:05:41about it so one could argue that that
- 01:05:44the
- 01:05:45that there is a role for for that
- 01:05:48increased preoccupation that
- 01:05:50that engagement with others who are not
- 01:05:53sufficiently different for it to be a
- 01:05:55mind opening experience for here almost
- 01:05:58exactly the same therefore or not
- 01:06:01I'm not doing anything other than
- 01:06:03increasing the self absorption there
- 01:06:04might there might still be actually a
- 01:06:06positive role for that because you know
- 01:06:08you'll get frustrated enough in the end
- 01:06:11perhaps with that that you'll that
- 01:06:13you'll do something to try and get out
- 01:06:15so that's that's perhaps one very
- 01:06:18partial answer to what you what you
- 01:06:21suggested
- 01:06:25yeah Tolstoy Dostoevsky
- 01:06:27would you say that that that usefulness
- 01:06:31of those texts be you was mean you don't
- 01:06:35have to go into the details if you if
- 01:06:37you didn't like but um
- 01:06:39was it about difference or was it about
- 01:06:41similarity or was it a mixture who was
- 01:06:43above any you know Dmitri didn't care
- 01:06:46about socks a gambler and I have the
- 01:06:49closest experience I have a basket to
- 01:06:51personally listen experience I've ever
- 01:06:52had a mutation is Bob Cousy money would
- 01:06:55lose a lot of time
- 01:06:57but what I have been about this
- 01:07:00character who were so different than me
- 01:07:02it really in troubled and contrasted me
- 01:07:04I just granted I mean it just got just
- 01:07:07there's he got it himself of the camera
- 01:07:09that's just one example of many yeah and
- 01:07:12Tolstoy talking you know Anna Karenina
- 01:07:14about
- 01:07:15the pretension of the Russians having to
- 01:07:19teach your daughter's French the older
- 01:07:22sister I mean just at a time you know my
- 01:07:26four hundred years when I was thinking
- 01:07:28about what kind of etiquette I needed to
- 01:07:31have I wish again I'm learning
- 01:07:35by virtually direct communication
- 01:07:38silence so so I guess that's an
- 01:07:40interesting than what you're making
- 01:07:42maybe there's something
- 01:07:45- yes yeah
- 01:07:48and that probably relates to the
- 01:07:49question about emotion versus
- 01:07:53or in combination with a more distance
- 01:07:56response so yeah
- 01:07:59you're learning new things it's not just
- 01:08:02a
- 01:08:03reflection
- 01:08:13that's wondering what you think or if
- 01:08:15you have any other comments on teaching
- 01:08:18this stuff to undergrads because I feel
- 01:08:20like
- 01:08:21there's so much potential for both
- 01:08:24cognitive leaders in general but also
- 01:08:26this is kind of uniquely engaged or
- 01:08:28applied cognitive settings I feel like
- 01:08:30once people get to that
- 01:08:34they're already
- 01:08:36into new tourism or other perspective
- 01:08:40other research and if I've learned
- 01:08:43anything doing this speaker series for
- 01:08:45three years it's like it's damn hard to
- 01:08:47turn people into different sorts of
- 01:08:50frameworks
- 01:08:51but it's also
- 01:08:54in terms of general of course offerings
- 01:08:57at undergraduate in in departments in
- 01:08:59English or theater or in history or
- 01:09:01whatever
- 01:09:02how I'm able to work in this sort of
- 01:09:06st. Matt's as opposed to you know in a
- 01:09:11psychology
- 01:09:12yeah good question um I
- 01:09:16obviously there's
- 01:09:18there's an easy answer which is
- 01:09:21to
- 01:09:23unrepentantly kind of go for the
- 01:09:25emotional hook and to say you know
- 01:09:27either you or someone you know has
- 01:09:29definitely had a mental illness for
- 01:09:31example in this case
- 01:09:32therefore I know that you care about it
- 01:09:35therefore let you know let's let's
- 01:09:37investigate well it sure would actually
- 01:09:39study has to say about this kind of
- 01:09:40thing but on the other hand you don't
- 01:09:43you don't want to do that
- 01:09:45too crudely I think
- 01:09:48nor do you just want to
- 01:09:51because because we don't really have any
- 01:09:53answers about any of this stuff yet you
- 01:09:57can't present it as a kind of
- 01:09:59opportunity for them to
- 01:10:01you know learn how to self-medicate or
- 01:10:04something I read an interesting article
- 01:10:08which I which I mentioned in the talk
- 01:10:11on The Hunger artist stuff by Mark who's
- 01:10:16who's talking about Kafka as well and
- 01:10:18talking about teaching a class
- 01:10:21including many young women who had
- 01:10:24either personal and direct experience of
- 01:10:27eating problems and he took the first
- 01:10:30one young woman who was meant to be
- 01:10:33writing in an essay about I think it was
- 01:10:37in this case Camus and
- 01:10:39symbolism of light or something in late
- 01:10:432002 really bad job her essay or had had
- 01:10:48problems with it and he asked her what
- 01:10:49was what the issue was and she says
- 01:10:52something about having
- 01:10:53wanted to she she'd been struck by how
- 01:10:56much food related stuff was going on in
- 01:10:59the text or body related stuff and she'd
- 01:11:01really wanted to talk about that and yet
- 01:11:03and also hadn't wanted to because it
- 01:11:05felt way too close to home and she
- 01:11:06didn't know how to she felt that that
- 01:11:09was not doing proper literary criticism
- 01:11:10because it was it would get her into the
- 01:11:12realm of the personal too quickly so
- 01:11:14she'd just done a really half-assed job
- 01:11:16on the earth on the symbolism of light
- 01:11:18stuff instead
- 01:11:20but that made me think about
- 01:11:26about the dangers and also the potential
- 01:11:28of doing this stuff in the classroom I
- 01:11:30think it's lovely of people - one of the
- 01:11:34reasons that I like
- 01:11:35trial is trying to teach the cognitive
- 01:11:38stuff is that
- 01:11:39it makes it makes personal experience
- 01:11:42legitimate it says you know if you have
- 01:11:44a response along such-and-such lines to
- 01:11:47this text that's relevant to our study
- 01:11:49we can we can work with that we can try
- 01:11:52and investigate why and you know think
- 01:11:54about if you change this word or that
- 01:11:55word how would that have changed your
- 01:11:56experience so I think this this kind of
- 01:12:00takes that
- 01:12:01that intuitive appeal a little bit
- 01:12:03further but also going further in a good
- 01:12:05way and also in a fraught and
- 01:12:08a tricky way when it comes to mental
- 01:12:10health but then engagement perhaps on
- 01:12:12something I mean I mentioned climate
- 01:12:14change for example there is interested
- 01:12:15in how in our narrative
- 01:12:17engagement might might help motivate
- 01:12:20people to be more environmentally
- 01:12:22responsible and stuff there may be maybe
- 01:12:24a less
- 01:12:25slightly less close to the bone kind of
- 01:12:27thing might
- 01:12:28might strike a nice compromise between
- 01:12:31you know going for the jugular and
- 01:12:34seeming irrelevant that's maybe one one
- 01:12:38way of proceeding
- 01:12:39[Music]
- 01:12:47come back and thank you very much
- 01:12:49[Applause]
- Emily Shenko
- Cognitive Science
- Literary Studies
- Mental Health
- Cognitive Realism
- Kafkaesque
- Eating Disorders
- Interdisciplinary Research
- Fiction Impact
- Humanities and Sciences