Radeon RX 9070 XT: How Can AMD Win Over Gamers?

00:45:43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hfne55oOKc

摘要

TLDRIn this Q&A session, hosts from Hard RUn Box discuss the state of the GPU market, particularly focusing on AMD's upcoming 9070 XT and NVIDIA's GeForce 50 Series. The conversation centers around the need for AMD to lower its prices significantly to be competitive with NVIDIA. They analyze AMD's past performance regarding pricing and market share and delve into the implications of NVIDIA's strategy which has resulted in a lack of lower-end graphics cards. The hosts also discuss anticipated performance improvements and the importance of maintaining strong relationships with AIB partners for future launches. They conclude by indicating that further discussions will continue in part three.

心得

  • 🎮 AMD must price their GPUs aggressively to attract gamers.
  • 💸 A 20% discount from AMD may not be enough to drive sales.
  • 🔍 The discussion highlights the disappearing low-end graphics card market.
  • 🔥 NVIDIA appears focused on promoting higher-tier GPUs.
  • 🤔 The hosts hint at the possibility of significant GPU improvements in future launches.

时间轴

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    In this part of the February Q&A, the focus shifts to the GeForce 50 Series launch as well as AMD's upcoming Radeon 9070 XT. The discussion includes insights from the sponsor, Thermal Grizzly, about their new thermal paste, Durena, which promises exceptional stability and thermal conductivity. The hosts also emphasize the importance of price positioning for AMD's offerings to appeal to gamers.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    The hosts argue that AMD needs to offer a price advantage of at least 20% to make their GPUs appealing compared to Nvidia. Despite AMD previously achieving a 20% better value with their 7900 XTX, sales have not met expectations, indicating that gamers may require an even steeper discount or compelling features to consider switching brands.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Further, the discussion delves into the insufficient competitive performance of AMD GPUs in key areas, particularly ray tracing. For AMD to attract consumers, they must match Nvidia's offerings closely in terms of performance while maintaining price leadership, ideally at a 30% lower price point to entice skeptical gamers.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    The conversation shifts to consumer behavior regarding discounts, asserting that many would only consider a real change at a 20% discount rather than a mere 10%. The hosts reflect on real-world buying scenarios and how significant price cuts influence purchasing decisions.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Discussing Nvidia's market strategy, the hosts critique the lack of entry-level graphics cards, suggesting that Nvidia aims to drive customers towards higher-end models. The market is characterized as increasingly more about brand loyalty than genuine product competitiveness, concerning for gamers on a budget.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    In exploring past GPU performance improvements, the hosts analyze whether advancements are achievable without process node changes. They highlight Nvidia’s 980 TI as a best-case example of a significant performance increase at a reasonable price point, emphasizing the need for competitive pricing amid rising power consumption in current GPUs.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    There is discussion about the unpredictable nature of upcoming GPUs and how future AMD products may fare based on current market conditions. The hosts express optimism that realistic and aggressive pricing could prolong partnerships with AIBs and improve the overall health of AMD's GPU offerings.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    The hosts examine the necessity for AMD to revamp their GPUs necessitating strong ray tracing performance in new releases. They suggest that ray tracing should be a core feature but only if performance can match or exceed 60fps in relevant gaming scenarios; otherwise, its inclusion becomes a marketing gimmick rather than a functional upgrade for gamers.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:43

    In concluding the Q&A, the hosts tease a third part where more questions will be addressed, highlighting the continuing critical discourse surrounding the GPU market as they invite audience engagement through platforms like Patreon and Discord.

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思维导图

视频问答

  • What does AMD need to do to impress gamers with the 9070 XT?

    AMD needs to offer a price at least 20% cheaper than NVIDIA's GPUs to impress gamers.

  • Is AMD pricing competitive enough in the GPU market?

    Historically, AMD's pricing has been about 20% lower, but this has not translated into significant sales.

  • Why are low-end GPUs disappearing?

    NVIDIA has shifted its focus to higher-end products, leading to fewer offerings in the low-end market.

  • Are we likely to see significant improvements in GPU performance without new technology?

    Improvement typically comes from changes in the manufacturing process and architecture, making significant leaps harder without those advancements.

  • What impact do AIB relationships have on AMD's GPU launch?

    Delayed launches may strain relationships with AIB partners, but successful launches can help maintain or improve those relationships.

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  • 00:00:00
    [Music]
  • 00:00:05
    welcome back to hard run box for part
  • 00:00:07
    two of our February Q&A more questions
  • 00:00:09
    to get to in this part because there
  • 00:00:11
    were just so many great questions so
  • 00:00:13
    many um negative questions to get to so
  • 00:00:17
    we'll be talking a little bit about that
  • 00:00:18
    but you know GeForce 50 Series has just
  • 00:00:20
    been out so what are you going to do
  • 00:00:21
    you're going to be talking about that
  • 00:00:22
    sort of thing so I guess let's get into
  • 00:00:25
    it today's sponsor spot is brought to
  • 00:00:26
    you by thermal Grizzly and the new
  • 00:00:28
    durena high performance ther paste
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  • 00:00:33
    stability combined with outstanding
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    thermal connectivity and this has been
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    achieved through a specially engineered
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    particles and zinc oxide nanop particles
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    of various shapes durut isn't
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    over time for best performance you'll
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    want to apply a very thin layer and to
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    help with this included is the TG
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    spatula Pro the spatula revised design
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    allows for increased pressure during
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    application making it easy to spread a
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    thin e layer of Jena so for more
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    information please check the link in the
  • 00:01:03
    video
  • 00:01:04
    description all right next question what
  • 00:01:07
    does AMD need to do for the 9070 XT to
  • 00:01:11
    impress you MH um so first of
  • 00:01:15
    all I guess you're asking what it needs
  • 00:01:17
    to do to impress me but realistically it
  • 00:01:20
    doesn't need to impress me it needs to
  • 00:01:22
    impress Gamers um I guess if I'm
  • 00:01:24
    impressed then Gamers will possibly be
  • 00:01:27
    impressed but having said that we've
  • 00:01:30
    claimed that AMD need to be at least 20%
  • 00:01:33
    cheaper rad on gpus need to be at least
  • 00:01:35
    20% cheaper than GeForce gpus they have
  • 00:01:38
    achieved that in the past and Gamers
  • 00:01:40
    haven't really responded to it so we
  • 00:01:43
    thought that was fairly impressive it's
  • 00:01:45
    looking like they probably have to shoot
  • 00:01:46
    more for 30% cheaper than GeForce GPS if
  • 00:01:49
    they want to try and and look you can
  • 00:01:51
    say that's unfair or this or that and
  • 00:01:53
    sort of stamp your feet but it's like
  • 00:01:55
    I'm not saying it Gamers at large are
  • 00:01:57
    saying it so
  • 00:02:00
    it's not the fan of like it's not the
  • 00:02:02
    opinion of an AMD fan or whatever it's
  • 00:02:03
    just reality they've offered 20% better
  • 00:02:06
    value and they haven't sold um so yeah
  • 00:02:10
    and if we look at like this I've got a
  • 00:02:12
    few notes Here the 7900 XTX that was 20%
  • 00:02:16
    better value than the RTX 4080 based on
  • 00:02:19
    our day one review data um it's 22%
  • 00:02:23
    better value based on the updated 5080
  • 00:02:25
    review data so it's it's in that 20%
  • 00:02:28
    range and again it didn't sell that well
  • 00:02:32
    and it's not a super favorable
  • 00:02:34
    comparison anyway because I don't think
  • 00:02:36
    the RTX 480 sold that well so yeah but
  • 00:02:40
    it was similar with like a 7800 XT
  • 00:02:42
    versus 570 I think the the 7800 XT
  • 00:02:45
    because the 570 was uh $100 more
  • 00:02:48
    expensive it turned out that the value
  • 00:02:50
    was about 20% better and again same same
  • 00:02:53
    sort of scenario yeah so they've
  • 00:02:55
    maintained or at least for the the
  • 00:02:57
    current or outgoing generation for the
  • 00:03:00
    most of the parts around a 20%
  • 00:03:02
    discount and we thought that's probably
  • 00:03:05
    what they would need to do in order to
  • 00:03:06
    sell well having said
  • 00:03:08
    that we are being a bit generous here
  • 00:03:10
    because that wasn't always the case for
  • 00:03:12
    products at launch so the the pricing
  • 00:03:15
    for quite a few of the products were
  • 00:03:17
    screwed up like 7700 XT should have
  • 00:03:19
    started
  • 00:03:20
    $400 um the RX 7600 should have started
  • 00:03:22
    at
  • 00:03:23
    $250 uh the 700 XT probably should have
  • 00:03:26
    started at more like 700 750 so
  • 00:03:30
    quite a few Key Products within that
  • 00:03:33
    lineup uh didn't start where they should
  • 00:03:35
    have yeah uh I think when you were going
  • 00:03:38
    through all those numbers just then a
  • 00:03:40
    lot of it was focused on just the
  • 00:03:42
    rasterization performance of the card
  • 00:03:44
    and the value that it needs to be
  • 00:03:46
    relative to that whereas I think part of
  • 00:03:48
    the issue that amd's had is that that's
  • 00:03:51
    really been the only strength of a radon
  • 00:03:53
    GPU like if you look and maybe vram as
  • 00:03:56
    well if you look across most of the
  • 00:03:58
    other aspects to the card like R Trac
  • 00:03:59
    performance which does matter in like a
  • 00:04:01
    XTX type of price tier upscaling other
  • 00:04:05
    feature quality a lot of those things
  • 00:04:07
    are not really in amd's favor and I
  • 00:04:09
    would say that if AMD was able to make a
  • 00:04:13
    car that's identical to a GeForce GPU in
  • 00:04:16
    everything so raster performance R
  • 00:04:18
    tracing performance upscaling quality is
  • 00:04:20
    the same other features are the same
  • 00:04:23
    everything right so par par exact parody
  • 00:04:26
    not not just parody and raster but I
  • 00:04:28
    mean true parody
  • 00:04:30
    I reckon for that card to sell on the
  • 00:04:32
    current market it would need to be 20%
  • 00:04:33
    cheaper and my reasoning for that is it
  • 00:04:36
    can't be the same price right because
  • 00:04:38
    just because of brand power people would
  • 00:04:40
    buy an Nvidia GPU but I think beyond
  • 00:04:42
    that if you think of like well you got
  • 00:04:44
    to convert people yeah you got to
  • 00:04:45
    convert that's what the statistic is
  • 00:04:46
    telling you yes statistically you own a
  • 00:04:49
    GeForce GPU for you to own a radon GPU
  • 00:04:52
    need to be converted what's converting
  • 00:04:54
    you exactly and so if I if let's say the
  • 00:04:57
    parody model AMD carard was 10 % cheaper
  • 00:05:01
    I I think of like sales for products for
  • 00:05:04
    example could be any product situation
  • 00:05:07
    it's like is it am I going to wait
  • 00:05:09
    around to get a product for a 10%
  • 00:05:11
    discount or is like a a Black Friday
  • 00:05:13
    sale for a 10% off on something is that
  • 00:05:16
    really changing my mind all that much to
  • 00:05:18
    me a 10% discount it's
  • 00:05:21
    like okay it's okay but and that's on
  • 00:05:23
    the product you've decided to buy though
  • 00:05:25
    that that's right so it's like it's
  • 00:05:27
    that's what I was saying it's like the
  • 00:05:28
    devil you know you
  • 00:05:30
    you know what they offer why risk
  • 00:05:32
    thewitch for 10% saving exactly so if
  • 00:05:36
    I'm thinking about like what looks like
  • 00:05:37
    a good discount to me on a parody
  • 00:05:39
    product sales that sort of thing when I
  • 00:05:42
    start when my head starts to get turned
  • 00:05:44
    for something it's a 20% discount like
  • 00:05:46
    if I've waited to buy a vacuum cleaner
  • 00:05:48
    or something and the model I'm
  • 00:05:49
    interested in is now 20% cheaper an
  • 00:05:51
    equivalent model is now 20% cheaper I'm
  • 00:05:54
    like oh interesting maybe now is the
  • 00:05:57
    time I should be buying that vacuum
  • 00:05:58
    cleaner and so when I think about run
  • 00:06:00
    the Dyson ad please I've always tried to
  • 00:06:02
    break new ground in vacuum technology
  • 00:06:04
    Dyson airra
  • 00:06:06
    Styler one thinking about AMD product
  • 00:06:09
    pricing again for parody 20% and then
  • 00:06:12
    then adjust from there based on the
  • 00:06:14
    actual quality of the product so for
  • 00:06:17
    example if they manag to get rate
  • 00:06:19
    tracing performance about the same as
  • 00:06:20
    Nvidia then good you can probably get it
  • 00:06:22
    a bit closer to that 20% mark But if
  • 00:06:25
    rate tracing is still pretty weak then
  • 00:06:27
    yeah you're probably going to need to
  • 00:06:28
    take off another 10 to 20% on the price
  • 00:06:31
    if FSR 4 is significantly worse than
  • 00:06:34
    deals S4 again you're probably going to
  • 00:06:36
    need to take off 10 to 20% of the price
  • 00:06:39
    and that's where you start to get to the
  • 00:06:41
    30 to 40% price discount that you were
  • 00:06:45
    talking about M so I think that all that
  • 00:06:48
    stuff like again You' be talking about
  • 00:06:51
    like a what like an $800 GPU being $500
  • 00:06:54
    which sounds like a pretty significant
  • 00:06:55
    discount but just think about like a
  • 00:06:57
    $7,900 XD for $500 probably would have
  • 00:07:00
    flown off the shelves yeah I mean I can
  • 00:07:02
    see people arguing with you in the
  • 00:07:04
    comments getting upset about you know
  • 00:07:06
    you're being unrealistic they don't need
  • 00:07:08
    to be that cheap but it's like I don't
  • 00:07:10
    know reality you're living but we've
  • 00:07:12
    just explained that in almost all
  • 00:07:14
    instances they've been offering a 20%
  • 00:07:15
    discount MH have not been selling like
  • 00:07:18
    market share smaller that's right I
  • 00:07:20
    think if the 7900 XT XTX was identical
  • 00:07:24
    to a 480 in every way then it probably
  • 00:07:27
    would have sold a lot better at the,
  • 00:07:29
    price point but people would have looked
  • 00:07:31
    at the reviews and gone rization
  • 00:07:33
    performance like if I'm playing Esports
  • 00:07:35
    games or don't really care about R
  • 00:07:37
    Racing then great buy and those are
  • 00:07:39
    probably the people that bought an XTX
  • 00:07:42
    right but then people interested in some
  • 00:07:44
    of those higher tier features would have
  • 00:07:45
    been
  • 00:07:46
    like I'll just get a 4080 and then of
  • 00:07:50
    course AMD is also fighting against
  • 00:07:52
    people that don't read reviews so they
  • 00:07:53
    have to start they have to start with
  • 00:07:56
    the Enthusiast crowd getting those
  • 00:07:58
    people really interested so that flows
  • 00:07:59
    to the rest of the market whereas again
  • 00:08:01
    like most people just immediately buy
  • 00:08:03
    the gForce GPU no matter what and so is
  • 00:08:06
    a small discount turning people's heads
  • 00:08:09
    changing the minds of those sort of more
  • 00:08:11
    normal casual PC
  • 00:08:14
    Gamers no is that no it's proven no yeah
  • 00:08:18
    so yeah I think AMD definitely has a
  • 00:08:21
    chance to do all this stuff it's just a
  • 00:08:23
    matter of doing it and executing it and
  • 00:08:25
    impressing us with these sorts of things
  • 00:08:27
    on top of that they still need to make
  • 00:08:28
    sure the hardware isn't terrible they
  • 00:08:30
    can't just launch cards with inadequate
  • 00:08:32
    vram missing video encoders not enough v
  • 00:08:35
    um not enough display outputs I'm
  • 00:08:37
    talking about a 6500 XT like you can't
  • 00:08:40
    release that product and like there's no
  • 00:08:42
    price of that card would have been like
  • 00:08:44
    wow unless it was like I guess $50 or
  • 00:08:46
    something $50 would have been acceptable
  • 00:08:49
    but yeah so as long as the hardware is
  • 00:08:51
    reasonable I feel like a lot of what
  • 00:08:53
    we've been talking about is not crazy
  • 00:08:55
    stuff like it's not outrageous to
  • 00:08:57
    suggest that if in if AMD made a 57 TI
  • 00:09:01
    type of product they'd need to have
  • 00:09:03
    pricing around the sort of $500 $550
  • 00:09:06
    range um but we'll see we'll see what
  • 00:09:08
    they end up doing mhm is the reason why
  • 00:09:11
    there's no 50 class cards anymore
  • 00:09:13
    because each generation of cards has
  • 00:09:15
    been stepped down 80 class is more like
  • 00:09:17
    70 7060 and 6050 uh yeah pretty much I
  • 00:09:23
    think I think that's part of it I think
  • 00:09:24
    another thing that you've talked about a
  • 00:09:26
    bit in our podcast shout out to the hard
  • 00:09:27
    run box podcast is NVIDIA just not
  • 00:09:30
    caring about low-end Gamers anymore uh
  • 00:09:34
    the whole strategy seems to be to drag
  • 00:09:36
    people up to higher and higher price
  • 00:09:37
    points by kind of making it so that cars
  • 00:09:40
    even in the 60 tier are kind of like the
  • 00:09:42
    trash tier poo type of stuff that you
  • 00:09:44
    just wouldn't consider and so the idea
  • 00:09:47
    is that you try and convince everyone
  • 00:09:48
    that the 5090 is really the only GPU
  • 00:09:51
    that you should be considering for
  • 00:09:52
    example like why doesn't the 5070 have
  • 00:09:55
    more than 12 gab of vram it's not
  • 00:09:57
    because of any reason outside of they
  • 00:09:59
    don't really consider that to be a very
  • 00:10:01
    good product they are limiting the vram
  • 00:10:04
    on purpose so that yeah it's limited
  • 00:10:06
    it's a limited GPU so why you're buying
  • 00:10:09
    it you peasant go buy 5080 that's or
  • 00:10:12
    5090 those are the cars that give you
  • 00:10:13
    the full experience of the gForce range
  • 00:10:16
    and if that's happening at a 5070 level
  • 00:10:19
    why bother with the 50/50 like you just
  • 00:10:21
    wouldn't make it yeah if they could be
  • 00:10:22
    honest they'd want to call it the 5070
  • 00:10:25
    compromised yeah like instead of the ti
  • 00:10:27
    it just be the compromised Edition I
  • 00:10:29
    want you to know if you buy this it is a
  • 00:10:33
    more affordable product but it's the
  • 00:10:35
    compromised one so don't winge that it's
  • 00:10:37
    not that fast or you haven't got enough
  • 00:10:39
    vram you are knowingly buying the
  • 00:10:41
    compromised version you should
  • 00:10:42
    definitely spend more money and to be
  • 00:10:44
    clear like this isn't our assumption at
  • 00:10:46
    CES I talked to some people at Nvidia
  • 00:10:49
    about like why does the 570 have only 12
  • 00:10:52
    GB of vram and they were basically
  • 00:10:54
    saying well yeah it's it's a compromised
  • 00:10:57
    card like we're not expecting this GPU
  • 00:10:59
    to be able to do everything so we've
  • 00:11:01
    made that card for that reason like Yeah
  • 00:11:04
    it's you're going to find some like they
  • 00:11:06
    even said to us Steve will find some
  • 00:11:08
    examples where the 5070 will have vram
  • 00:11:11
    issues like they're not denying it or
  • 00:11:13
    anything they used to they they used to
  • 00:11:15
    but they at least in the meetings that
  • 00:11:16
    we had they're just
  • 00:11:18
    confirming that yeah if you want the
  • 00:11:21
    full exp if you want to be able to turn
  • 00:11:22
    every feature on that's not what a 57 is
  • 00:11:25
    for MH that's what a 59 is for yeah so
  • 00:11:29
    that and of course it used to be the
  • 00:11:30
    case where 70 class cards actually could
  • 00:11:33
    give you a reasonable experience and it
  • 00:11:34
    was more for high resolution gaming or
  • 00:11:36
    super high frame rate gaming that you
  • 00:11:38
    would need those High tier products
  • 00:11:39
    whereas today it's it's a lot more
  • 00:11:41
    feature locked like there are just some
  • 00:11:42
    cards where yeah you might not be able
  • 00:11:44
    to do even what wheel class reasonable
  • 00:11:46
    gaming so why would you make a 50/50
  • 00:11:48
    yeah they're so dominant now that
  • 00:11:50
    they're one step away from actually
  • 00:11:51
    making vram something they Market where
  • 00:11:54
    it's like I don't think they're one step
  • 00:11:55
    away they are doing that with this
  • 00:11:57
    generation essentially well
  • 00:11:59
    they're trying for example if you're
  • 00:12:01
    after a 70 class card and you want
  • 00:12:03
    enough vram to the the minimum card you
  • 00:12:07
    need is a 55070 TI and that's a $750
  • 00:12:09
    card they're trying to convert people
  • 00:12:11
    that would have bought the 70 to now buy
  • 00:12:14
    the 70 TI it seems pretty clear from the
  • 00:12:17
    lineup that that's the goal of this
  • 00:12:19
    generation so yeah I don't think we'll
  • 00:12:22
    ever see a 5050 interesting question
  • 00:12:25
    this one has Nvidia or AMD ever
  • 00:12:27
    delivered a significant performance
  • 00:12:28
    increase with without a process node
  • 00:12:30
    Improvement for the GPU core is much of
  • 00:12:32
    the 59s performance uplift just coming
  • 00:12:34
    from the die size increase what the
  • 00:12:37
    second part basically yes yes so I think
  • 00:12:39
    we alluded to this in part one of the
  • 00:12:40
    Q&A series
  • 00:12:42
    but uh so kepo Maxwell were both tsmc 28
  • 00:12:50
    so same same manufacturing process
  • 00:12:52
    between those two series and quite
  • 00:12:55
    interestingly so the 980 TI
  • 00:12:59
    was only 7% larger than the 782 I so
  • 00:13:02
    that's pretty small yeah not that much
  • 00:13:04
    of a difference
  • 00:13:06
    and I believe it was around 30% faster
  • 00:13:10
    the 980ti so pretty good I didn't go and
  • 00:13:14
    deep dive into the performance there but
  • 00:13:16
    it looks like it was about a 30%
  • 00:13:17
    performance uplift and so you might
  • 00:13:20
    think that's interesting because I think
  • 00:13:23
    the 982 I was quite well well received
  • 00:13:26
    certainly I think by reviews more so
  • 00:13:28
    than the
  • 00:13:29
    5090 and we're talking about a similar
  • 00:13:32
    generation on generation performance
  • 00:13:34
    uplift while remaining on the same
  • 00:13:36
    process node so that's pretty
  • 00:13:38
    interesting example
  • 00:13:40
    right but the
  • 00:13:42
    problem uh well the problem start to
  • 00:13:44
    arise when you look a bit deeper into it
  • 00:13:47
    so the MSRP was lowered by 8% so it went
  • 00:13:53
    down from $700 for the 780 Ti to
  • 00:13:56
    $650 for the 980ti
  • 00:13:59
    and on top of that you got twice as much
  • 00:14:01
    of your RAM so you went up from 3 GB to
  • 00:14:04
    6
  • 00:14:05
    GB so that's probably why it was well
  • 00:14:08
    received at the time I definitely
  • 00:14:10
    remember the 980ti being popular yeah it
  • 00:14:12
    also overclocked really well but that's
  • 00:14:14
    a separate benefit
  • 00:14:16
    um
  • 00:14:18
    so for the 5090 to be similar in terms
  • 00:14:24
    of like what we saw back then it' have
  • 00:14:26
    to cost no more than $1,500 an 8%
  • 00:14:29
    reduction would actually be like
  • 00:14:31
    $1,470 sure but that would be rounded up
  • 00:14:33
    to $1,500 as an MSRP reasonably that's
  • 00:14:36
    reasonable yeah yeah so it have to be
  • 00:14:38
    $1,500 which I think we said if they had
  • 00:14:40
    have actually lowed the MSRP by $100 I
  • 00:14:42
    think it was on the podcast we're
  • 00:14:43
    talking about that uh I guess 48 GB of
  • 00:14:46
    vram probably a less important thing 32
  • 00:14:49
    GB is sufficient yeah 32 gig is a good
  • 00:14:51
    Improvement um and the other thing was
  • 00:14:54
    that the 980ti used roughly the same
  • 00:14:58
    power as the 782 at least based on the
  • 00:15:01
    data that I went back and looked at so
  • 00:15:03
    they got a good architectural gain yeah
  • 00:15:05
    so 7% bigger but 30% more performance
  • 00:15:07
    roughly same power
  • 00:15:10
    whereas what is it like 27% faster on
  • 00:15:12
    average for the 90 for around 30% more
  • 00:15:15
    power I think people would forgive that
  • 00:15:17
    though if they hit the other two as like
  • 00:15:19
    the value aspect the vram is obviously
  • 00:15:22
    actually sure but I mean if you add all
  • 00:15:24
    those things together it's like yes
  • 00:15:26
    that's why the 980ti was much better
  • 00:15:29
    received M because of all of those
  • 00:15:31
    things I I want to read this cuz when I
  • 00:15:34
    was I was when I was researching this I
  • 00:15:36
    read probably six different reviews you
  • 00:15:38
    know tech power up Guru 3D and antech
  • 00:15:42
    rip and antech sad times how is this so
  • 00:15:45
    this is one paragraph from the anant
  • 00:15:48
    conclusion so they said so this is for
  • 00:15:50
    the 980 TI review in their
  • 00:15:53
    conclusion they said it's still not
  • 00:15:55
    enough to double GTX 780s per
  • 00:15:58
    performance M nor are we going to get
  • 00:16:01
    there until 16 nanm but it's a bright
  • 00:16:03
    spot for those who may want to upgrade a
  • 00:16:05
    bit sooner than
  • 00:16:07
    2016 on the other hand GTX 780ti owners
  • 00:16:11
    will almost certainly want to hold off
  • 00:16:13
    for the next Generation despite the name
  • 00:16:15
    so basically back then they were saying
  • 00:16:18
    because it's not double the performance
  • 00:16:20
    like it's not an insane yeah perform
  • 00:16:24
    upgrade so that's that was pretty wild
  • 00:16:26
    going back and reading that and then
  • 00:16:27
    obviously you know the 30% you
  • 00:16:29
    definitely don't upgrade it for 30% more
  • 00:16:30
    performance that's yeah crazy talk yeah
  • 00:16:33
    I mean times have changed obviously but
  • 00:16:35
    a lot of what you were talking about
  • 00:16:37
    with the value of that product probably
  • 00:16:38
    did hold true for like a 490 versus 390
  • 00:16:41
    at least at MSRP because it was
  • 00:16:42
    significantly faster the price didn't
  • 00:16:44
    increase that much I guess it did have
  • 00:16:46
    the same level of vram so you didn't
  • 00:16:47
    really get that Advantage but obviously
  • 00:16:50
    that was a very a different generation
  • 00:16:52
    but yeah I mean it was interesting that
  • 00:16:54
    same node they were able to lower the
  • 00:16:55
    performance uh lower the price sorry and
  • 00:16:58
    I believe that probably is because the
  • 00:16:59
    Wafers would have gotten cheaper between
  • 00:17:02
    in the time between the two generations
  • 00:17:04
    yeah I think about 18 months so usually
  • 00:17:05
    when you buy Wafers right the start of
  • 00:17:07
    when a node's available you hit with a
  • 00:17:09
    kind of a double whammy the the price of
  • 00:17:11
    the Wafers is probably at its highest
  • 00:17:14
    and also the yields will be at their
  • 00:17:15
    lowest so you're kind of hit with you
  • 00:17:17
    know it'll cost you the most at that
  • 00:17:19
    time to get a dive a certain size then
  • 00:17:21
    later in the nodes life cycle generally
  • 00:17:24
    speaking especially if they've launched
  • 00:17:26
    an even newer node um the node the old
  • 00:17:29
    node will get cheaper and then the
  • 00:17:30
    yields will be improved as well so
  • 00:17:32
    you'll be you'll get more usable dieses
  • 00:17:34
    out of a single wafer and so that's
  • 00:17:37
    likely why they were able to take a
  • 00:17:40
    similar or even slightly larger die and
  • 00:17:42
    actually reduce the price I doubt that
  • 00:17:45
    it cost them margins to do that there
  • 00:17:47
    would have been more competition back
  • 00:17:49
    then as well from Radeon um that would
  • 00:17:51
    have been what like the like the 290 era
  • 00:17:54
    R9 290 those are pretty good gpus from
  • 00:17:57
    memory M um so so yeah competition would
  • 00:17:59
    have affected that as well but yeah just
  • 00:18:02
    not happening these days is it are we
  • 00:18:05
    ever going to get an unambiguously good
  • 00:18:07
    GPU again not an it depends card but an
  • 00:18:10
    actual straightup recommendation GeForce
  • 00:18:12
    has lost the plot radio never had it and
  • 00:18:14
    Intel can't decide if it wants to exist
  • 00:18:16
    right now so I'm concerned we're going
  • 00:18:17
    to have to deal with gpus being
  • 00:18:19
    overpriced and unpe for a while I mean
  • 00:18:22
    there's so many different ways you can
  • 00:18:24
    answer this um we have the new radon
  • 00:18:27
    gpus coming up
  • 00:18:29
    what they do no idea could be just
  • 00:18:32
    another big old flop they could actually
  • 00:18:34
    get serious and want to turn things
  • 00:18:36
    around at radi want to
  • 00:18:38
    be I was going to
  • 00:18:40
    say like seriously aggressive or super
  • 00:18:43
    aggressive on pricing but I feel like
  • 00:18:45
    that's making it sound like they're
  • 00:18:46
    doing something
  • 00:18:47
    bold by being what we would sort of
  • 00:18:49
    think as being super aggressive is kind
  • 00:18:51
    of the minimum of what they need to do
  • 00:18:54
    in order to sell them yes
  • 00:18:56
    so anyway there's there's that angle but
  • 00:18:59
    then there's just the angle
  • 00:19:03
    of it is what it
  • 00:19:06
    is
  • 00:19:09
    because cards like the 90 the 58 like
  • 00:19:13
    reviewers universally Cann the 80 I
  • 00:19:17
    would say 90% of all 580 reviews
  • 00:19:20
    globally were negative some of them
  • 00:19:23
    highly negative and the retailers I
  • 00:19:26
    spoke to they were like we didn't get
  • 00:19:29
    that many 508s like we were hoping to
  • 00:19:31
    get more and then we saw you know we got
  • 00:19:34
    previews of reviews and stuff we were a
  • 00:19:35
    bit worried that we overbought and
  • 00:19:37
    they're like they all sold like hotcakes
  • 00:19:39
    gone the astral model from
  • 00:19:43
    Asus it's like 50% over MSRP gone
  • 00:19:48
    whatever and and one of the retailers I
  • 00:19:49
    spoke to said they got that was one of
  • 00:19:51
    the higher volume cards was the astral
  • 00:19:56
    gone so I know that's a IAL demand and
  • 00:20:00
    maybe that won't be sustained for the
  • 00:20:01
    next 12 to 24 months well it's at least
  • 00:20:04
    12 months and they'll probably refresh
  • 00:20:05
    it right so how well will that be
  • 00:20:08
    sustained over the next 12 months and
  • 00:20:10
    what will GPU shipments look like and
  • 00:20:12
    GPU shipments even if they're in Decline
  • 00:20:15
    doesn't tell the story because it
  • 00:20:17
    profits can be massively up because
  • 00:20:19
    they're making so much more per unit
  • 00:20:21
    yeah so thinking that prices will come
  • 00:20:24
    down because maybe GPU shipments have
  • 00:20:26
    come down is a misleading statistic but
  • 00:20:29
    I just
  • 00:20:30
    think I don't know I don't know we
  • 00:20:33
    always heard for a long time that you
  • 00:20:34
    know GPU prices are creeping up because
  • 00:20:36
    of reviewers it's reviewers fault
  • 00:20:38
    they're creating hyper and these
  • 00:20:39
    products and people still buying them
  • 00:20:41
    it's quite clearly not the you know
  • 00:20:44
    reviewers to be blamed here um again
  • 00:20:47
    5080 reviews were quite negative almost
  • 00:20:50
    universally cards sell like hotcakes at
  • 00:20:53
    just absolutely absurd I mean $1,000 us
  • 00:20:57
    you might not say that's absurd I think
  • 00:20:58
    that's absurd for that particular
  • 00:20:59
    product it definitely needed to be
  • 00:21:01
    cheaper especially given that you could
  • 00:21:02
    acquire pretty much the same performance
  • 00:21:04
    12 months prior so I don't get the 80
  • 00:21:07
    hype at all there's no extra vram
  • 00:21:09
    there's yeah but I mean if there was
  • 00:21:11
    competition for that card then maybe
  • 00:21:14
    that wouldn't have happened well that's
  • 00:21:16
    right I mean it is still technically
  • 00:21:18
    speaking the best value product at that
  • 00:21:20
    performance tier um yeah so I mean like
  • 00:21:24
    I get what this question is coming from
  • 00:21:25
    because we've seen a lot of quite poor
  • 00:21:27
    launches I'm still firmly of the belief
  • 00:21:30
    that there is no technical reason why
  • 00:21:34
    graphics cards have to be underwhelming
  • 00:21:36
    like there's there's no reason I can see
  • 00:21:38
    where it's like they can't adjust the
  • 00:21:40
    price to a position where it would get a
  • 00:21:42
    good review where they can't Speck it in
  • 00:21:44
    a way that would get a good review a lot
  • 00:21:46
    of cards would be fixed with just more
  • 00:21:48
    vram for example yeah but that cost you
  • 00:21:50
    more money it cuts into margin yeah but
  • 00:21:52
    but what I'm saying is right
  • 00:21:54
    like there are limits to how cheap a GPU
  • 00:21:57
    could be like
  • 00:22:02
    aacac Marg or whatever we're not
  • 00:22:06
    anywhere close to that if we were close
  • 00:22:07
    to that like they were selling 90 size
  • 00:22:10
    dies for like $500 I'd be like yeah look
  • 00:22:13
    guys like they probably we run the
  • 00:22:15
    numbers but like we they probably can't
  • 00:22:17
    physically make that card that much
  • 00:22:19
    cheaper like that's probably the limits
  • 00:22:22
    but there's just no indication that
  • 00:22:24
    that's true the the issue with why cards
  • 00:22:26
    are so underwhelming I strongly believe
  • 00:22:29
    is what you're saying about people just
  • 00:22:31
    buying the cards outright with no no
  • 00:22:34
    concern at all for how bad they are but
  • 00:22:36
    also the the lack of competition and the
  • 00:22:39
    lack of moves being made to make cards
  • 00:22:41
    good like if a couple of small steps
  • 00:22:44
    would probably make a lot of these
  • 00:22:45
    gpus much much better like if the 5080
  • 00:22:48
    was like 10% better value the review
  • 00:22:51
    would have been significantly different
  • 00:22:54
    which seems to not matter yeah I know I
  • 00:22:56
    was reviewing the astral 580 that video
  • 00:22:59
    should already be out by now and I was
  • 00:23:01
    just like this is so dumb so it's a
  • 00:23:03
    $1,000 MSRP for the 580 astral um sorry
  • 00:23:08
    the the 80 MSRP astral MSRP is 50%
  • 00:23:12
    higher it's
  • 00:23:14
    $1500 us mhm and I'm was like ridiculous
  • 00:23:19
    uh don't I obviously don't recommend you
  • 00:23:21
    spend $500 US 50% more on this product
  • 00:23:24
    it is absolutely not worth it don't buy
  • 00:23:26
    it um effectively a dumb product and I
  • 00:23:29
    would even go as far as saying and it's
  • 00:23:31
    sad that it's not it should be right
  • 00:23:34
    Dead on Arrival yeah historically if a
  • 00:23:38
    brand released their OC
  • 00:23:41
    model even if it was a limited edition
  • 00:23:44
    liquid cooled liquid metal Asus Matrix
  • 00:23:48
    type card for 50% over MSRP like yeah
  • 00:23:52
    that's just not going to sell and again
  • 00:23:54
    it's just they're gone all the stock
  • 00:23:57
    that they had day one gone
  • 00:24:01
    so there is probably Limited in some way
  • 00:24:04
    by how many they made yeah we'll have to
  • 00:24:06
    see how it goes over the next few months
  • 00:24:08
    but I'm sitting here saying don't buy
  • 00:24:10
    this this is dumb I can't recommend it
  • 00:24:11
    de on arrival essentially but also
  • 00:24:14
    they're all sold out so I'm an idiot
  • 00:24:17
    yeah I mean what do you I guess the the
  • 00:24:20
    there's a number of different caveat to
  • 00:24:21
    that writers like there's always going
  • 00:24:23
    to be some percentage of people who are
  • 00:24:25
    just nonsensical buyers like they make
  • 00:24:27
    completely a logical decision ISS you
  • 00:24:29
    see that with many different product
  • 00:24:30
    categories where just things you just
  • 00:24:32
    would never imagine would sell they sell
  • 00:24:35
    and I guess if Supply is really limited
  • 00:24:37
    then if that fixed number of really
  • 00:24:40
    nonsensical buyers are the only ones
  • 00:24:41
    buying anything and the stocks really
  • 00:24:43
    limited that it kind of makes sense why
  • 00:24:45
    it would would sell out but I feel like
  • 00:24:48
    there's not it's not just nonsensical
  • 00:24:50
    buyers while that is a large portional I
  • 00:24:52
    think there's a lot of people there's
  • 00:24:54
    like fomo and stuff like people are
  • 00:24:56
    seeing the stock levels of these gpus
  • 00:24:58
    maybe they went to buy 590 they tried to
  • 00:25:01
    buy one in the first 30 seconds they're
  • 00:25:02
    like there's no stock oh my God Panic
  • 00:25:05
    stations what can I get like I've
  • 00:25:08
    committed to buying a GP there's no 59s
  • 00:25:09
    oh do I get a
  • 00:25:11
    580 yeah I've got $2,000 to spend
  • 00:25:14
    there's a Rog astral I have to make a
  • 00:25:15
    decision within the next like 20 seconds
  • 00:25:18
    or they'll sell out because the 590 is
  • 00:25:19
    already gone I guess I'll just buy the
  • 00:25:21
    580 astral I've done it I've bought it
  • 00:25:24
    yeah which again which is why we were
  • 00:25:25
    saying like was when we were speculating
  • 00:25:27
    was that the plan well it's potentially
  • 00:25:31
    part of it I'm guessing because like as
  • 00:25:33
    ridiculous as that might sound that that
  • 00:25:36
    mindset of buying in that way to some
  • 00:25:38
    people but people really do buy products
  • 00:25:40
    like that people really do see things
  • 00:25:42
    that are selling out quickly and while
  • 00:25:45
    that may be manufactured because there's
  • 00:25:47
    not enough Supply or anything that does
  • 00:25:48
    affect your mindset going into buying
  • 00:25:50
    things whereas if there were thousands
  • 00:25:52
    of 508s on shelves and you could come an
  • 00:25:55
    hour later and they're still available
  • 00:25:57
    people come in with a clearer mind
  • 00:25:59
    they've thought more about their
  • 00:26:00
    decisions whereas with these GPU
  • 00:26:03
    launches now it feels like a lot of it
  • 00:26:04
    is designed to force people into these
  • 00:26:06
    quick decisions uh For Better or Worse
  • 00:26:09
    probably worse whereas for me like a
  • 00:26:11
    $1,500 580 that thing better be
  • 00:26:13
    goldplated signed by the CEO like coming
  • 00:26:16
    coming with a ticket to Disneyland or
  • 00:26:18
    something because there's no way I'm
  • 00:26:19
    paying a $500 premium for it it's absurd
  • 00:26:22
    so yeah I basically while things Remain
  • 00:26:25
    the way they are then no you're not
  • 00:26:27
    going to good value gpus
  • 00:26:30
    again um and there was hints that it was
  • 00:26:33
    going to go this way uh when the first
  • 00:26:36
    probably probably by the second
  • 00:26:37
    cryptocurrency boom occurred and then
  • 00:26:40
    you know we got the next one and then we
  • 00:26:41
    transitioned into
  • 00:26:43
    Ai and these companies got sort of a
  • 00:26:47
    taste for the the huge margins and
  • 00:26:48
    they're like well how can we sustain
  • 00:26:50
    these how can we manipulate the market
  • 00:26:52
    in a way that allows us to sell th000
  • 00:26:55
    $2,000 graphics cards and and here we
  • 00:26:59
    are yep I
  • 00:27:01
    mean I wouldn't say it's all doom and
  • 00:27:04
    gloom because with the 40 series for
  • 00:27:05
    example there were cards that were
  • 00:27:07
    unattractive enough to prompt a response
  • 00:27:10
    from Nvidia so the RTX 480 for example
  • 00:27:14
    did sit on shelves and the result of
  • 00:27:17
    that was the 480 super came out which
  • 00:27:19
    provided much better value now whether
  • 00:27:21
    or not the 480 super was an amazing
  • 00:27:24
    product probably not but if the 480 was
  • 00:27:28
    lying off shelves in the way the 580 has
  • 00:27:30
    there is no way they would have made the
  • 00:27:31
    480 super the configuration and price
  • 00:27:33
    that they did yeah which so essentially
  • 00:27:35
    the hope is what we're seeing now is a
  • 00:27:37
    bit of a misread on the situation you
  • 00:27:40
    get a month or two down the track and
  • 00:27:42
    5080 sales have just slowed to a cwel
  • 00:27:44
    and it's the the 4080 all over again mhm
  • 00:27:48
    that that's I guess the Hope on our
  • 00:27:50
    end or or there's really compelling
  • 00:27:52
    competition it's just one of one of two
  • 00:27:54
    options and that's what we're going to
  • 00:27:57
    have to hope for I guess yep how much
  • 00:27:59
    potential damage is being done with aib
  • 00:28:01
    relationships with amd's canell launch
  • 00:28:04
    of the 9070 XT cancel is the right word
  • 00:28:08
    maybe uh unexpectedly delayed but anyway
  • 00:28:12
    um were the aibs uh already or where the
  • 00:28:16
    aibs already had cards in stock ready to
  • 00:28:18
    launch at retailers will the aibs uh
  • 00:28:21
    have to rol their offerings to be able
  • 00:28:24
    to produce the cards that have the same
  • 00:28:27
    profit margin at the expected lower
  • 00:28:29
    price points um I mean first of all we
  • 00:28:32
    don't even really know what price points
  • 00:28:34
    they were legitimately targeting and how
  • 00:28:37
    that all works but obviously there's
  • 00:28:39
    ways around those issues but is it
  • 00:28:42
    hurting the relationship with aibs I
  • 00:28:45
    think they were kind of on thin ice with
  • 00:28:48
    probably some of their Partners to begin
  • 00:28:49
    with anyway um we sort of heard that MSI
  • 00:28:52
    dropped off because of these sort of
  • 00:28:55
    issues but we think the steps I think we
  • 00:28:58
    both agree the steps that they've taken
  • 00:28:59
    so far are the correct steps in ensuring
  • 00:29:02
    they don't just do the same old dumb
  • 00:29:04
    thing they've been doing generation
  • 00:29:05
    after generation and failing hopefully
  • 00:29:07
    they're waiting for the actual uh
  • 00:29:11
    competition to launch and they can come
  • 00:29:13
    in and Crush that competition yeah
  • 00:29:15
    hopefully they're not going to come in
  • 00:29:17
    and undercut the competition by $50 or
  • 00:29:19
    margins they've done before that haven't
  • 00:29:21
    seen their GPU sell well which is up to
  • 00:29:23
    around 20% hopefully they just really
  • 00:29:25
    come in and they just offer something
  • 00:29:27
    that just makes it for most
  • 00:29:30
    people
  • 00:29:31
    uh a situation where they're just not
  • 00:29:33
    going to buy a GeForce GPU so what we
  • 00:29:36
    talked about earlier converting people
  • 00:29:37
    to the radio on brand they have to
  • 00:29:40
    release something so compel compelling
  • 00:29:42
    that you just wouldn't even uh consider
  • 00:29:45
    buying the GeForce GPU I think that that
  • 00:29:48
    strategy if that works is going to do a
  • 00:29:51
    world of good for the relationships with
  • 00:29:53
    brand partners because yeah brands are
  • 00:29:57
    probably a little upset that the cards
  • 00:30:00
    that they were expecting to launch in
  • 00:30:01
    January then they have to wait on them
  • 00:30:02
    until to release them to march like
  • 00:30:05
    that's probably not the best idea in
  • 00:30:07
    terms of building relationships with
  • 00:30:09
    your brand Partners but you know what
  • 00:30:10
    would fix that is if cards were flying
  • 00:30:13
    off shelves because they're so popular
  • 00:30:15
    yeah the alternative would have been to
  • 00:30:16
    do what they did last time which is
  • 00:30:17
    launch now at an unattractive price and
  • 00:30:20
    then have them not sell and then turn
  • 00:30:23
    around to the partners and say well
  • 00:30:24
    we're slashing the prices anyway which
  • 00:30:27
    is you talk about so the inevitable
  • 00:30:29
    happens and then you don't there's no
  • 00:30:32
    hype around the product so the the price
  • 00:30:34
    gets slashed anyway so the inevitable
  • 00:30:37
    plays out but all the negative reviews
  • 00:30:39
    are still there or the lukewarm reviews
  • 00:30:41
    or the you know wait wait for the RTX
  • 00:30:44
    competition to launch and then we'll
  • 00:30:46
    make our decision then the RTX
  • 00:30:48
    competition launches and we're like eh
  • 00:30:50
    the radio on gpus is just not AR cheap
  • 00:30:52
    enough these are better you might as
  • 00:30:54
    well buy the GeForce GPU for these
  • 00:30:56
    reasons yeah and history repeats itself
  • 00:31:00
    I think the pricing doesn't affect the
  • 00:31:03
    offerings of the card all that much
  • 00:31:06
    because aibs they're always operating on
  • 00:31:09
    a a margin relative to the price that
  • 00:31:12
    it's going to cost them for the GPU so
  • 00:31:14
    it's not like they've gone oh we've made
  • 00:31:17
    this card for $600 and now amd's made it
  • 00:31:20
    $500 therefore we're losing $100 on
  • 00:31:23
    every model it's more they're factoring
  • 00:31:26
    in well the stuff where adding to the
  • 00:31:28
    card is costing us $50 so we're going to
  • 00:31:32
    price our card whatever you the MSRP is
  • 00:31:35
    plus $50 for the premium model or plus 0
  • 00:31:38
    for the MSRP model or whatever that's
  • 00:31:40
    all factored into margin type discussion
  • 00:31:42
    the only way that'd really get burnt is
  • 00:31:44
    if for example they decided to make a
  • 00:31:47
    super premium model like a liquid cooled
  • 00:31:49
    model or an astral or something like
  • 00:31:51
    that and then it turns out the product
  • 00:31:54
    line actually isn't really well suited
  • 00:31:56
    to a high-end card so if they're
  • 00:31:58
    expecting it to be a $1,000 GPU it's
  • 00:32:00
    actually a $500 GPU and they've made
  • 00:32:03
    these ridiculously overpriced coolers
  • 00:32:05
    that are costing them a fortune to make
  • 00:32:07
    that that's how they would get burnt but
  • 00:32:09
    I think with most normal coolers most
  • 00:32:12
    normal offerings if AMD changes the
  • 00:32:15
    price by $1 or $200 it's not going to
  • 00:32:17
    impact that side of things all that much
  • 00:32:20
    obviously the percentage differences
  • 00:32:22
    price over the MSRP will change a little
  • 00:32:24
    bit but I think most aibs will will be
  • 00:32:26
    able to cope with that sort of situation
  • 00:32:28
    pretty well and even with things like
  • 00:32:30
    price Cuts after the fact it does annoy
  • 00:32:32
    aibs when that happens but again it's
  • 00:32:35
    not like am cuts the price than aibs are
  • 00:32:37
    forced to sell cards at a loss there are
  • 00:32:39
    rebates at the back end and incentives
  • 00:32:42
    uh We've even heard times when you know
  • 00:32:44
    the the manufacturer ofo like power
  • 00:32:47
    color or Sapphire or one of those Brands
  • 00:32:50
    XFX
  • 00:32:51
    actually they they still get the MSRP
  • 00:32:54
    price for the card but then the the
  • 00:32:57
    discount may go to the retailer instead
  • 00:32:58
    of the the aib so the retailer
  • 00:33:01
    effectively pays the uh card
  • 00:33:03
    manufacturer the full price and then AMD
  • 00:33:07
    um reimburses the retailer effectively
  • 00:33:09
    to get it down to say the $750 price for
  • 00:33:12
    a 7900 XT so there's there's all sorts
  • 00:33:14
    of different incentive patterns that can
  • 00:33:15
    happen there so that yeah ret uh the
  • 00:33:18
    aibs aren't just completely screwed when
  • 00:33:20
    there's pricing adjustments but yeah I
  • 00:33:24
    strongly think that if they they the
  • 00:33:25
    launch goes well that this is only going
  • 00:33:27
    to benefit the the partners
  • 00:33:29
    significantly and I think they'll be
  • 00:33:30
    pretty happy if the launch goes well
  • 00:33:32
    let's say we have a GPU with atmost b580
  • 00:33:35
    7600 XD raster performance and in other
  • 00:33:38
    features it's equivalent to the best of
  • 00:33:40
    the three options how much rate tracing
  • 00:33:42
    performance would it have to have for
  • 00:33:44
    rate tracing to be a worthwhile
  • 00:33:47
    feature so is the question asking at
  • 00:33:49
    what performance TI is R tracing a
  • 00:33:52
    usable feature or like a a worthwhile
  • 00:33:55
    feature because for example with a rad
  • 00:33:58
    RX 7600 or a gForce RTX 460 or a b580
  • 00:34:02
    where like R Racing is completely
  • 00:34:04
    irrelevant here because it's nowhere
  • 00:34:06
    near fast enough I'm guessing so like
  • 00:34:09
    it's kind of an interestingly phrased
  • 00:34:10
    question but like the way like the
  • 00:34:13
    amount of rate tracing performance those
  • 00:34:15
    cards would need to have like b580 tier
  • 00:34:17
    the rate Trace we need to significantly
  • 00:34:19
    outstrip the rest of performance like
  • 00:34:22
    those gpus are like on struggle Street
  • 00:34:25
    for raster yeah is the best way I can
  • 00:34:28
    put it so um I've got a few notes here
  • 00:34:32
    from my updated or yeah my updated
  • 00:34:34
    testing from my RTX 5080 review
  • 00:34:38
    mhm but even like an RTX
  • 00:34:41
    4070 so I think you I think you would
  • 00:34:44
    probably say that's your entry level for
  • 00:34:46
    rate
  • 00:34:47
    tracing but then if you pick the games
  • 00:34:50
    that you the more modern games where you
  • 00:34:52
    said R tracing under these certain
  • 00:34:54
    settings which is the settings I tested
  • 00:34:55
    is transformative
  • 00:34:58
    at 1440p using quality dlss upscaling
  • 00:35:02
    you're looking at an average of 40 FPS
  • 00:35:05
    with an RTX 4070 and black myth Wukong
  • 00:35:08
    mhm so 1440p upscaling black myth Wukong
  • 00:35:12
    40 FPS with rage
  • 00:35:14
    racing um 55 FPS in cyberpunk using your
  • 00:35:19
    transformative quality settings at 440p
  • 00:35:22
    again upscaling and 39 FPS and Allen
  • 00:35:25
    weight 2 so for me personally that is
  • 00:35:28
    unsatisfactory performance like we're
  • 00:35:29
    not even talking about 60 FPS in most
  • 00:35:32
    instances well short mhm like yeah you
  • 00:35:34
    need to use like DSS performance which
  • 00:35:38
    maybe is okay with DSS 4 but that's like
  • 00:35:40
    we haven't tested that yet so not not
  • 00:35:42
    sure TBD on that and I guess this is
  • 00:35:44
    sort of my problem with rate racing in
  • 00:35:46
    general is the performance you're
  • 00:35:47
    getting so even if you look at an RTX
  • 00:35:50
    480 which was $1200 let's call it $1,000
  • 00:35:53
    now because essentially you're paying
  • 00:35:55
    $11,000 for similar level of performance
  • 00:35:58
    again 1440p quality upscaling black myth
  • 00:36:02
    Wukong 61 FPS on average Allen weight 2
  • 00:36:05
    66 FPS and then things start getting to
  • 00:36:09
    a level of I would deem satisfactory and
  • 00:36:11
    cyber Punk you're looking at like 85
  • 00:36:14
    FPS yeah so I mean I think there's kind
  • 00:36:17
    of two answers to this question for the
  • 00:36:21
    transformative level of rate tracing
  • 00:36:23
    where we're talking about games that
  • 00:36:24
    have a specific rate tracing setting and
  • 00:36:27
    games
  • 00:36:28
    ignoring sort of Metro Exodus yeah
  • 00:36:30
    modern games there's a r tracing setting
  • 00:36:33
    that's separate to the raster settings
  • 00:36:35
    where you'd want to turn on that setting
  • 00:36:37
    to get significant perform like
  • 00:36:39
    significant quality improvements there
  • 00:36:41
    not worth turning on right then yeah
  • 00:36:43
    you're probably looking at RTX 470 TI to
  • 00:36:48
    480 performance minimum for that sort of
  • 00:36:51
    experience anything even the 470 TI and
  • 00:36:54
    certainly below that you're starting to
  • 00:36:56
    talk about needing significant levels of
  • 00:36:59
    upscaling so whether that's 1440p
  • 00:37:01
    performance mode or relying on the
  • 00:37:04
    crutch of frame generation for example
  • 00:37:06
    which again is probably not going to
  • 00:37:06
    work well in those examples but I know
  • 00:37:09
    some people do use it in that way so
  • 00:37:12
    that's the level you're talking about
  • 00:37:13
    for that the other angle is the games
  • 00:37:16
    where you're kind of forced to use R
  • 00:37:18
    tracing so for example Like a Star Wars
  • 00:37:20
    Outlaws and Indiana Jones think there's
  • 00:37:23
    more games coming this year like Doom
  • 00:37:24
    the new Doom game is going to force R
  • 00:37:26
    tracing
  • 00:37:28
    that's a little different because you'll
  • 00:37:29
    probably be able to use like a medium to
  • 00:37:31
    low quality setting on some sort of GPU
  • 00:37:34
    so you wouldn't want the rate tracing
  • 00:37:35
    performance to be like devastatingly low
  • 00:37:37
    because then those games are just flat
  • 00:37:39
    out not going to work whereas a game
  • 00:37:41
    like uh Allen W 2 for example works just
  • 00:37:44
    fine on like a 4060 if you turn off rate
  • 00:37:46
    racing you would just use the medium
  • 00:37:48
    quality settings so like is a b580 is
  • 00:37:52
    rate tracing performance Bad For an
  • 00:37:54
    upcoming rate tracing only game I mean
  • 00:37:57
    it's probably not going to be great for
  • 00:37:59
    like those games are not going to run
  • 00:38:01
    super well but they're probably going to
  • 00:38:03
    work at some level of performance like
  • 00:38:05
    whether it's low settings with upscaling
  • 00:38:07
    or medium with upscaling but
  • 00:38:10
    yeah I would say at least that for up
  • 00:38:12
    for R tracing to be like
  • 00:38:14
    a really key aspect of that card it
  • 00:38:18
    would certainly need to be minimum like
  • 00:38:20
    40 70 levels of performance for those
  • 00:38:22
    upcoming like like if I was going to
  • 00:38:24
    predict a doom nextg doom games right
  • 00:38:27
    racing performance or nextg cyber Punk
  • 00:38:30
    game jeez and you're Pro with where
  • 00:38:32
    you're forced use R tracing 4070 is a
  • 00:38:34
    bold call for those games you're really
  • 00:38:36
    talking 10ed p with upscaling at that
  • 00:38:38
    point it's like yikes it I'm to like it
  • 00:38:40
    depends on what what how much R race
  • 00:38:43
    like I'm assuming rate tracing is forced
  • 00:38:44
    it's just a question of how low can you
  • 00:38:47
    go right that's the problem with all
  • 00:38:48
    these
  • 00:38:49
    compromised experiences becomes highly
  • 00:38:52
    subjective obviously but in my opinion
  • 00:38:55
    my experience testing it all for myself
  • 00:38:59
    I would much rather have a 4070 and
  • 00:39:02
    never touch R Racing I would rather aim
  • 00:39:04
    for a like I would much prefer the
  • 00:39:08
    quality the sharpness the improved
  • 00:39:10
    detail at a higher resolution than I
  • 00:39:12
    would lowering the resolution to try and
  • 00:39:15
    enhance visuals that way with Road
  • 00:39:17
    tracing I've always felt that way and I
  • 00:39:19
    still feel that way today I mean there's
  • 00:39:21
    certainly issues like Star Wars Outlaws
  • 00:39:23
    the reflection quality is not not very
  • 00:39:25
    good at sort of your medium to settings
  • 00:39:28
    they can get very grainy and there's a
  • 00:39:29
    lot of issues with that M so I
  • 00:39:32
    mean I get what you're saying like you
  • 00:39:35
    would prefer to do it your way I just
  • 00:39:37
    think that in the next year you will be
  • 00:39:39
    forced to do it the r tracing way there
  • 00:39:42
    will not be an option not to which is
  • 00:39:44
    why I'm saying the it has to be the
  • 00:39:46
    4080 cuz the for this has always been
  • 00:39:49
    the problem with Raad tracing right
  • 00:39:51
    people focus too much on but it's the
  • 00:39:54
    future evidently we're seeing that but
  • 00:39:57
    what happens is the the the gpus aren't
  • 00:40:00
    organic they don't work out and get
  • 00:40:02
    tougher and better at R tracing so the
  • 00:40:06
    underwhelming r tracing performance that
  • 00:40:08
    I just informed you of in games like
  • 00:40:11
    black myth Wukong and and Allan Wake 2
  • 00:40:14
    is only going to get worse for future
  • 00:40:17
    titles that do a more impressive level
  • 00:40:20
    of raid
  • 00:40:22
    tracing and I already think that sub
  • 00:40:24
    60fps gaming is unacceptable
  • 00:40:27
    like rate tracing is not that good that
  • 00:40:30
    I'm going to go below 60 FPS and I think
  • 00:40:32
    the vast majority of people agree with
  • 00:40:34
    me um but whether you do or you don't
  • 00:40:37
    that's just my opinion anyway I would
  • 00:40:38
    much rather play um Blackmouth Wukong
  • 00:40:42
    for example at 90 FPS without rad
  • 00:40:44
    tracing than at 40 FPS with rad tracing
  • 00:40:48
    so uh well game developers are going to
  • 00:40:51
    cut out that first option for you in the
  • 00:40:53
    next Generation they'll solve that for
  • 00:40:55
    me and then Nvidia will be like
  • 00:40:57
    I mean there's some games where the
  • 00:40:59
    performance on those cards isn't too bad
  • 00:41:02
    like we're talking like Indiana Jones
  • 00:41:04
    isn't a disastrous experience on a low
  • 00:41:06
    tier card like it works I guess the
  • 00:41:08
    question is
  • 00:41:11
    like is that a true representation of R
  • 00:41:14
    tracing if they're trying to do the bare
  • 00:41:16
    minimum it's like I I get the games of R
  • 00:41:19
    tracing only like they've made that
  • 00:41:21
    decision is a is a low settings
  • 00:41:24
    experience in Indiana Jones better than
  • 00:41:26
    an Ultra settings experience using
  • 00:41:28
    raster in another game I don't know well
  • 00:41:30
    there's the visual side of things and
  • 00:41:33
    then there's just the acceptable frame
  • 00:41:35
    rate which is the thing we always talk
  • 00:41:36
    about when we test CPUs right so it
  • 00:41:39
    doesn't matter if the game looks
  • 00:41:41
    phenomenal MH at 40 FPS yeah if you if
  • 00:41:45
    60 FPS is the absolute minimum and and
  • 00:41:49
    for me 40 FPS gaming
  • 00:41:51
    is so bad yeah but like Indiana Jones on
  • 00:41:54
    a re on like a 470 on low settings is
  • 00:41:56
    going to run well above 40 FPS and it's
  • 00:41:59
    a r tracing only game same with like
  • 00:42:01
    Star Wars Outlaws right yeah so to
  • 00:42:03
    answer the question because we're just
  • 00:42:06
    we're just talking now Quake the
  • 00:42:08
    upcoming Quake game 40 sorry upcoming I
  • 00:42:12
    think quake's done well sorry I think
  • 00:42:15
    quake's done that's actually more
  • 00:42:16
    depressing to be fair I'm sorry the
  • 00:42:18
    upcoming Doom
  • 00:42:19
    game
  • 00:42:22
    uh 4070 what are you getting for
  • 00:42:25
    transformative f
  • 00:42:28
    I mean it's R tracing only so that
  • 00:42:31
    becomes tough because you can't I
  • 00:42:32
    suppose do a non-r tracing option
  • 00:42:36
    but like what preset equality settings
  • 00:42:39
    on frame rate and that's a that that
  • 00:42:41
    historically that has been a game where
  • 00:42:43
    you want High frame rates to actually
  • 00:42:44
    really enjoy it playing it's probably
  • 00:42:47
    one of the probably needs the highest
  • 00:42:48
    frame rate of any single playing Doom at
  • 00:42:51
    60fps just no no no no no it so good
  • 00:42:54
    luck yeah good luck with that yeah it's
  • 00:42:57
    going to be really interesting to see
  • 00:42:58
    how that goes because obviously the like
  • 00:43:00
    developers can even make different
  • 00:43:01
    choices right like they could force
  • 00:43:03
    people into having to buy ex extravagant
  • 00:43:06
    R tracing gpus to run their games or
  • 00:43:10
    like really cut back on R tracing to the
  • 00:43:12
    point where like if we're talking about
  • 00:43:15
    running doom on low settings R tracing
  • 00:43:18
    is forced on on a b580 is that like a
  • 00:43:20
    true R tracing experience or is it kind
  • 00:43:23
    of just R tracing imitating RoR it's
  • 00:43:26
    kind of force but you're not really
  • 00:43:27
    getting the the true benefits of R if
  • 00:43:29
    you know what I mean right like R
  • 00:43:32
    tracing you Nidia advertised R tracing
  • 00:43:35
    they're talking about this idea of rate
  • 00:43:36
    tracing I think we're getting there with
  • 00:43:38
    path Trace games like Alan Wake
  • 00:43:40
    blacksmith Wukong when you turn on those
  • 00:43:41
    settings but if we're talking about like
  • 00:43:44
    the lowest possible quality settings in
  • 00:43:46
    a game where ra tracing is forced on is
  • 00:43:48
    that really what we meant by ra
  • 00:43:49
    tracing like yeah so yeah anyway let's
  • 00:43:53
    move on to the next question because a
  • 00:43:55
    lot of that's just speculative we'll see
  • 00:43:57
    how that plays out for upcoming games
  • 00:43:59
    sort of thing but yeah it could get
  • 00:44:01
    pretty quickly where those low tier gpus
  • 00:44:03
    are going to become unusable in modern
  • 00:44:05
    games which would be uh disappointing
  • 00:44:08
    all right we're going to hit pause for
  • 00:44:09
    the second time on part two of this
  • 00:44:11
    month's questions again there's been so
  • 00:44:13
    many great questions this month that
  • 00:44:15
    we're going to do probably do a part
  • 00:44:16
    three in in a couple of days from now so
  • 00:44:18
    we just thought you know what we've been
  • 00:44:20
    loving talking about the GPU Market the
  • 00:44:23
    state of the GPU Market at the moment
  • 00:44:25
    things that can be done there that we're
  • 00:44:27
    going to treat ourselves to some more
  • 00:44:30
    very super positive questions in part
  • 00:44:32
    three so stay tuned for that on the
  • 00:44:34
    channel soon uh what else we got our
  • 00:44:37
    patreon page so if you want to sign up
  • 00:44:38
    and gain access to some cool benefits
  • 00:44:40
    then that's available as well um you get
  • 00:44:42
    an exclusive sort of Channel where you
  • 00:44:44
    can ask your question it's kind of like
  • 00:44:46
    a priority Lane except not like at the
  • 00:44:48
    airport now where you know there there's
  • 00:44:49
    like a priority Lane but most people
  • 00:44:52
    just go there so it kind of clogs up the
  • 00:44:53
    priority Lane we don't allow that this
  • 00:44:55
    is a true priority for your Q&A
  • 00:44:58
    questions um monthly live stream which
  • 00:45:00
    we'll be doing shortly after recording
  • 00:45:02
    this but there's always next month and
  • 00:45:04
    then yeah the Discord is just a great
  • 00:45:06
    place to chat about stuff it's always
  • 00:45:07
    enjoyable in there and you know you
  • 00:45:09
    publish your 59 year review live
  • 00:45:11
    basically your live watching occurs in
  • 00:45:13
    there which is always nice
  • 00:45:15
    so yeah that pretty much does it so
  • 00:45:17
    thanks for watching I'm your host Tim
  • 00:45:19
    I'm your host Dave see you in the next
  • 00:45:21
    one
  • 00:45:24
    [Music]
  • 00:45:36
    [Music]
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