Break Free of Toxic & Emotionally Immature People (EIP), Parents & Relationships | Lindsay C Gibson

01:16:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO_pnpXltHo

Summary

TLDRThe latest episode of the '10% Happier Podcast' features Dan Harris speaking with clinical psychologist Lindsay C. Gibson regarding emotionally immature people (EIPs). They delve into the complexities and challenges these individuals bring into relationships. Gibson explains the cardinal traits of EIPs, such as egocentrism, lack of empathy, and avoidance of emotional intimacy, which can often make interactions confusing and frustrating, leading to what she terms 'brain scramble.' The discussion also covers recognizing one’s own immature tendencies and strategies for maintaining composure and self-awareness during difficult interactions. Emphasis is placed on the necessity of disentangling, which involves setting boundaries and maintaining self-identity rather than necessarily severing ties. The episode concludes with insights into forgiveness, suggesting that understanding and acceptance may be viable alternatives. Through this dialogue, listeners are offered advice on navigating relationships with EIPs while sustaining personal authenticity and mental well-being.

Takeaways

  • 🎤 Lindsay C. Gibson discusses emotionally immature people.
  • 📚 Her new book is 'Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People.'
  • 💡 Key traits of EIPs: egocentrism, lack of empathy, poor reflection.
  • 🗝️ Importance of setting boundaries and maintaining self-awareness.
  • 🚫 Not all circumstances require estrangement from EIPs.
  • 🌀 'Brain scramble' explained as confusion during interactions with EIPs.
  • ⚖️ Practical advice on handling one's own immature tendencies.
  • 🛠️ Realistic goals are crucial when dealing with EIPs.
  • 🧠 Understanding as an alternative to traditional forgiveness.
  • 🫂 Enmeshment in relationships and maintaining individuality.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Dan Harris introduces the 10% Happier podcast and teases an upcoming live event in Boston. He discusses the paradox of needing people for happiness yet finding them challenging, citing French existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre and science’s insights into loneliness. He introduces guest Lindsay C Gibson, an expert on emotionally immature people, who has a new book out, continuing her series on the topic.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Lindsay Gibson explains emotional immaturity as a separate line of development, distinct from intellectual or social skills. Emotional immaturity often reveals itself under stress or in emotionally intimate relationships. Key traits include egocentrism, poor empathy, poor self-reflection, and discomfort with emotional intimacy. These traits make it challenging for such individuals to change because they externalize blame instead of introspecting.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Gibson mentions emotionally immature people’s tendency to deny or distort reality to maintain comfort, highlighting their inability to handle emotionally challenging situations authentically. The conversation touches on how stressful situations are not always indicative of a person’s real self. Mature individuals may still be aware of others even when stressed, unlike their immature counterparts.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    The podcast explores spotting emotionally immature people (EIPs), who can initially appear socially adept. They recommend caution in personal or professional engagements with EIPs due to their difficulty in handling disagreement or stress. The recommendation is to observe behaviors and how they handle disagreements, as this can reveal their emotional maturity over time, despite initial charm.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Gibson elaborates on the entangled dynamics in relationships with emotionally immature people where one might end up managing their needs or boosting their self-esteem. She describes common origins of such immaturity, including attachment issues or trauma in childhood, stressing the prevalence and societal impact of emotional immaturity.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Dan Harris and Gibson discuss the concept of disentangling from emotionally immature people, which involves setting inner boundaries and recognizing dynamics in relationships. Disentangling doesn’t always mean a complete break but can mean establishing a psychological distance from the emotionally immature person to protect one’s wellbeing.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    To maintain boundaries, Gibson suggests observing behavior objectively and being mindful of how one's needs are (or aren't) being met in relationships with EIPs. Emotional immaturity thrives when others are reactive and emotionally engaged, so maintaining objectivity helps protect oneself.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    The podcast further explores the importance of authenticity and how those raised by EIPs might trade authenticity for approval, losing their sense of self. Harris relates his personal experiences with losing authenticity around EIPs. Gibson assures that emotional maturity allows space for occasional immature traits, provided there's self-reflection and growth potential.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    In difficult interactions with EIPs, Gibson advises maintaining a calm focus on specific outcomes rather than trying to change the other person. This avoids the emotionally draining cycle of reactive defense mechanisms. Persistent repetition can help maintain one's stance over time without engaging in unproductive conflict.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    Regarding the question of whether EIPs can change, Gibson emphasizes the potential rests on their ability for self-reflection, often prompted by external factors such as personal crises. She discusses realistic expectations for change and the importance of focusing on what is in one's control in interactions with EIPs.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:55:00

    Complete estrangement from EIPs may not resolve internalized patterns absorbed from these relationships. Therapeutic work can help individuals strengthen their sense of individuality and build healthy relationship patterns, which is crucial for personal growth beyond geographical distance.

  • 00:55:00 - 01:00:00

    Gibson discusses building individuality through relationships where one feels recognized and understood, which can counteract the effects of emotionally immature dynamics. Developing a strong sense of self offers a remedy to emotional entanglement and supports healthier interactions.

  • 01:00:00 - 01:05:00

    Alternatives to forgiveness are explored, emphasizing that genuine forgiveness arises organically and isn't mandatory for healing. Self-compassion and understanding the roots of emotional immaturity in others can ease lingering anger even if forgiveness isn’t feasible.

  • 01:05:00 - 01:10:00

    Dealing with one's emotionally immature tendencies involves ongoing self-awareness and choosing healthier paths. Personal anecdotes illustrate how recognition of these patterns can lead to positive change and better relational dynamics, underscoring lifelong maturation.

  • 01:10:00 - 01:16:38

    The final advice includes recognizing and preventing the mental fog (or brain scramble) experienced when interacting with EIPs by having clear, realistic interaction goals, enabling individuals to maintain their cognitive clarity and focus during challenging conversations.

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Mind Map

Video Q&A

  • Who is the guest on this episode?

    Lindsay C. Gibson, a clinical psychologist.

  • What is the topic of discussion?

    The focus is on emotionally immature people (EIPs), recognizing them, and dealing with them.

  • What new book has Lindsay C. Gibson released?

    "Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People."

  • How can emotional maturity impact relationships?

    Emotionally immature individuals can create challenging dynamics, requiring others to manage their emotional stability.

  • Can emotionally immature people change?

    Yes, if they gain some self-reflection and understanding of their behavior.

  • What is the concept of 'disentangling' from emotionally immature individuals?

    It's about setting psychological boundaries and maintaining a sense of self, not necessarily cutting off the relationship.

  • What are some characteristics of emotionally immature people?

    They may be egocentric, lack empathy, have poor self-reflection, and resist emotional intimacy.

  • What is 'brain scramble'?

    It refers to the confusion or inability to express oneself clearly when interacting with an emotionally immature person.

  • How can one manage interactions with emotionally immature people?

    By setting specific, realistic goals for the interaction and maintaining calmness and self-awareness.

  • What does Lindsay C. Gibson suggest about forgiveness?

    She suggests exploring understanding and acceptance as alternatives to forgiveness.

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  • 00:00:05
    this is the 10% happier podcast I'm Dan [Music]
  • 00:00:13
    Harris hello everybody quick reminder before we  dive in we've got our first live podcast coming
  • 00:00:24
    up on September 7th 2023 at the armory in Boston  uh we're going to have very special guest and when
  • 00:00:30
    I say very special I truly mean that this is  going to be awesome it's a very small venue so
  • 00:00:35
    if you want tickets go to the link in the show  notes double quick if this experiment works we
  • 00:00:40
    may start doing live shows around the country in  the world so uh I'm excited to see how this plays
  • 00:00:44
    out let's talk about today's episode though I may  have made this observation before on the show and
  • 00:00:50
    it may not even be an original observation however  it is my view that one of life's Most Fascinating
  • 00:00:55
    and thorny paradoxes is that on the one hand we  need other people in order to be happy on the
  • 00:01:02
    other hand other people can be a gigantic pain in  the ass as the French existentialist writer Jean
  • 00:01:09
    Paul sarer once said hell is other people and yet  we know from science that perhaps on a much deeper
  • 00:01:16
    level hell is loneliness which can really degrade  us both psychologically and physiologically which
  • 00:01:23
    leaves us with a tricky task if we want to take  our happiness seriously we need to cultivate good
  • 00:01:28
    relationships while being aware that this [ __ ]  ain't easy all of which brings me to today's guest
  • 00:01:35
    who has become an expert in toxic people or as  she calls them emotionally immature people we've
  • 00:01:42
    had the clinical psychologist Lindsay C Gibson on  the show once before that was last year in 2022
  • 00:01:48
    and it was one of the best performing episodes of  the year so we thought we'd have her back because
  • 00:01:52
    she's out with a new book called disentangling  from emotionally immature people it's the fourth
  • 00:01:57
    in her ongoing series on this topic in this  conversation we start with a a run through
  • 00:02:02
    of the basics on the Cardinal characteristics of  emotionally immature people or eips how to spot
  • 00:02:08
    them and why you might want to then we turn to  what Dr Gibson means by disentangling from eips
  • 00:02:15
    and how to do it by the way disentangling does  not necessarily mean estrangement what often
  • 00:02:20
    happens to your own sense of self when you're  in relationship or even just in a conversation
  • 00:02:24
    with an EIP how to best interact with an EIP  specifically how to prevent brain scramble when
  • 00:02:30
    you're talking with somebody who isn't making  any attempt to understand what you're saying
  • 00:02:35
    how she Lindsay reacts when she comes across  eips in her everyday life whether it's possible
  • 00:02:41
    to have immature characteristics without being  an EIP handling your own emotionally immature
  • 00:02:47
    Tendencies whether or not eips can change the  limits of estrangement and why she encourages
  • 00:02:55
    alternatives to forgiveness one quick audio note  here you may hear a few stray background noises
  • 00:03:01
    on Lindsay's end that's the nature of remote  recording before we get started with today's
  • 00:03:08
    episode if you've been around tph land for any  length of time you've probably heard me name drop
  • 00:03:15
    Joseph Goldstein he started out as my meditation  teacher then became my friend and then we teamed
  • 00:03:20
    up to uh help start the 10% happier meditation  app and I just wanted to remind you that there is
  • 00:03:28
    a ton of content featuring Joseph and his humor  and wisdom over on the app where he's the Lead
  • 00:03:35
    Teacher on six different courses I'd recommend you  start with the basics which features yours truly
  • 00:03:41
    and Joseph talking about how to achieve perfect  imperturbability and bulletproof Bliss actually
  • 00:03:48
    just kidding uh it's just about how to get 10%  happier through basic meditation it's free if
  • 00:03:54
    you want to check it out I encourage you to do  so download the 10% happier app today wherever
  • 00:03:59
    you get your apps now on with the show audible  lets you Lindsay C Gibson welcome back to the
  • 00:04:07
    show oh it's great to be back Dan thanks for  having me it's a pleasure we talked about this
  • 00:04:13
    the last time you were on but for people who  didn't hear that episode or haven't had time
  • 00:04:17
    to go back and listen to it can you just give  us the basic definition of emotionally immature
  • 00:04:22
    people sure emotional immaturity is a line of  development just like people develop in their
  • 00:04:32
    intellect they develop in their social skills  they develop physically these are all lines of
  • 00:04:38
    development that most of us are pretty Adept at  noticing whether a person has developed normally
  • 00:04:44
    in those areas emotional immaturity is its own  separate line of development and so you can have
  • 00:04:52
    a person who could be intellectually very bright  very accomplished or they could be super social
  • 00:04:59
    socially skilled the most popular person in their  group but that doesn't mean anything about their
  • 00:05:06
    level of emotional maturity emotional maturity  really is seen when the person is under stress or
  • 00:05:17
    if they're in a emotionally intimate relationship  those are the two places that emotional immaturity
  • 00:05:24
    shows itself so there are a lot of areas in life  that people show up in that don't have to do with
  • 00:05:33
    emotional intimacy and they don't have to do  you know with stress they they're just normal
  • 00:05:38
    daily functioning and these people look perfectly  normal but when they go home and they are faced
  • 00:05:46
    with relationship issues or stresses that they  may not show in other situations then the people
  • 00:05:55
    who are living with them really get to see the  emot immaturity and they really bear the brunt
  • 00:06:02
    of it in a way that other people might say what  your mom she's so sweet she's so cute or it could
  • 00:06:09
    be your husband he's such a great guy what are  you talking about it's because it's not going
  • 00:06:14
    to show up until these particular conditions are  there so if we want to just do a quick run through
  • 00:06:23
    of the characteristics of emotional immaturity  the first one is that they tend to be very ego
  • 00:06:29
    entric these are people who are self-preoccupied  they're always thinking of what's in it for them
  • 00:06:38
    how is it going to affect them and they really  don't have much appreciation that other people
  • 00:06:46
    are psychologically real on the inside they're  more like characters in a play that the person
  • 00:06:53
    is in they have poor empathy it's hard for them to  feel what other people are feeling so they don't
  • 00:07:02
    have great imagination when it comes to putting  themselves in someone else's shoes and they don't
  • 00:07:08
    mentalize what other people are probably thinking  about they also have very poor self-reflection so
  • 00:07:15
    if they have a problem in a relationship or  you know problem at work they're not going to
  • 00:07:22
    ask themselves gee you know did I do something  to cause that was there something that I was
  • 00:07:28
    saying that was making this person uncomfortable  that would not occur to them um because they
  • 00:07:36
    externalize and project blame for most things  that go wrong in their lives this makes it very
  • 00:07:44
    hard for them to change too because the people  that come to psychotherapy usually are the ones
  • 00:07:51
    who are asking themselves those questions and they  do have the potential for transformation because
  • 00:07:57
    they're showing some curios it about how they're  showing up in the world and the effects that
  • 00:08:04
    they're causing but not the emotionally immature  person they're very afraid of emotional intimacy
  • 00:08:13
    like when you try to get close to them or open up  to them or get them to talk about themselves at a
  • 00:08:20
    genuine deeper level they're likely to back up and  become very uncomfortable brush it off change the
  • 00:08:30
    subject make a quip they just don't like to be  down in that kind of emotionally intimate deep
  • 00:08:39
    kind of interaction which is tragic when it's  their child because that's what kids need is
  • 00:08:46
    someone who can go down in their feelings with  them and then finally they do this thing where
  • 00:08:54
    they interpret reality according to how they  feel so if it feels like something is happening
  • 00:09:04
    like against them then that's fact in their mind  if they feel like you don't like them or you're
  • 00:09:13
    criticizing them even if that's not your intent  it's not what you said they use their feelings
  • 00:09:19
    just like little children do to tell them what  the external reality is now this is like a really
  • 00:09:27
    immature way to do life because you can't guide  yourself effectively through adult life on the
  • 00:09:35
    basis of what things feel like to you I mean we  can use our intuition and we can use our feelings
  • 00:09:43
    but we need to have an external objective ability  to interpret reality based on something other than
  • 00:09:53
    our own egocentrism and they also tend to adjust  reality so that it doesn't upset them so they will
  • 00:10:03
    deny things dismiss things distort things like  it never happened I never said that what are
  • 00:10:10
    you talking about because if they don't want to  deal with it they will just not deal with it so
  • 00:10:18
    those are some of the Cardinal characteristics  of emotional immaturity I remember the last time
  • 00:10:24
    you were on you were talking about some of the  Cardinal characteristics and my question was
  • 00:10:29
    wow I I see a lot of myself in that um and we are  going to talk about later in this discussion what
  • 00:10:36
    to do when you're noticing emotional immaturity  in your own mind but let's just stay with other
  • 00:10:42
    people for a second you said something interesting  about how emotional immaturity shows up in one of
  • 00:10:49
    two places generally one would be under stress the  other would be in emotional intimate relationships
  • 00:10:54
    and I'm remembering what I thought was a very wise  thing that a friend of mine said to me like 20
  • 00:11:00
    years ago I said this cliche thing about how when  people are under stress you really get to see the
  • 00:11:07
    real them and my friend who went on to become a  psychiatrist he was not medically trained at this
  • 00:11:13
    point said something that's always stuck with me  which was that actually no I think when people are
  • 00:11:17
    under stress that is really not who they are it's  you know the amydala the stress part of the brain
  • 00:11:23
    is activated and and it's who they are most of the  time that's the real measure so what do you think
  • 00:11:29
    of that yeah I think your friend is right I mean  I would hate to have somebody judge my emotional
  • 00:11:36
    maturity on how I act when I'm super stressed  I mean but it's more like you can think about
  • 00:11:43
    it as when you're stressed you're going to use  certain coping mechanisms just you know that's
  • 00:11:50
    what we all do we have our defenses we have our  coping mechanisms the person who is relatively
  • 00:11:57
    emotionally mature even when they're stressed  they're still going to be aware of the effect
  • 00:12:05
    on other people they're still going to be aware  of the realities you know they may be upset they
  • 00:12:12
    may be you know out of their mind with anxiety  or worry but some of these foundational things
  • 00:12:18
    you're still going to have the feeling that they  are in touch with reality even though reality is
  • 00:12:25
    making them suffer but they're still in touch with  reality and you can still relate to them okay with
  • 00:12:32
    the emotionally immature person it's likely  to be much more black and white much more of
  • 00:12:38
    a rigid response much more judging blaming denial  Distortion insisting so that is what you're really
  • 00:12:50
    looking for during the episode of stress is what  is the quality of it are you still able to reach
  • 00:12:59
    that person you know is there somebody still  in there or are you just dealing with a bunch
  • 00:13:05
    of reactive defense mechanisms that's all about  trying to make them feel better and then as the
  • 00:13:14
    stress goes down does the person come back and say  wow I'm sorry I was so off thewall with that I was
  • 00:13:21
    just really scared I didn't know what I was going  to do but you know sorry I talked your ear off you
  • 00:13:26
    know they'll have some awareness that they weren't  quite themselves whereas an emotionally immature
  • 00:13:33
    person they won't come back and do that kind of  self-reflection that's not what they're focusing
  • 00:13:40
    on is how they've affected other people does that  help yeah it does okay how do we spot an EIP and
  • 00:13:51
    what's the benefit of spotting them in other words  what's the benefit of making this amateur remote
  • 00:13:56
    diagnosis of somebody else's phenotype so yeah  two-part question how do we spot them and why they
  • 00:14:03
    can be very hard to spot because a lot of them  especially if they have narcissistic components to
  • 00:14:08
    their personality and by the way the way I look at  it is that all narcissistic personality disorders
  • 00:14:17
    are emotionally immature but certainly not all  emotionally immature people are narcissistic
  • 00:14:24
    so it's kind of like a a subcategory but they're  very hard to spot because like I said their social
  • 00:14:31
    skills their intelligence all of that is fine and  so you may be really drawn in and really relate
  • 00:14:39
    very well to them for a long time you know like  let's say you're doing something in business with
  • 00:14:45
    them or let's say you start to date them things  can go well for a long time and I'm reminded of
  • 00:14:52
    this psychiatrist hervy kleckley who worked with  Psychopaths who certainly are emotionally immature
  • 00:14:59
    and he said that he could always tell a psychopath  because that was the person he lent money
  • 00:15:04
    to so I mean we even if you know about emotional  immaturity you're going to respond to charm
  • 00:15:16
    you're going to respond to attention you're  going to respond to social you know charm and
  • 00:15:23
    and facility I mean we all respond to that stuff  but over time time as you get to know the person
  • 00:15:32
    you're going to find out a lot more about how  they cope with life and how they treat other
  • 00:15:39
    people at the beginning of the relationship you  know you may feel like the only person on Earth
  • 00:15:45
    in their eyes But as time goes on you'll see  how they handle disagreements you'll see how
  • 00:15:53
    they handle it when things don't go their way  and you'll see what they do when it looks like
  • 00:15:59
    they're not going to get everything that they want  that's kind of where the rubber meets the road and
  • 00:16:06
    you start to see you know some of these things  be directed back at you in a very unpleasant
  • 00:16:15
    way or maybe you'll get the cold shoulder but it  won't be that they will come toward you and try
  • 00:16:21
    to work it out with you what they'll do instead  is Express their displeasure and Hope that you
  • 00:16:29
    get the message that you need to shape up and be  the way that they want you to be so I think it's
  • 00:16:36
    crucial that we be aware of emotional immaturity  and look out for it because what happens if we
  • 00:16:45
    go ahead and marry that person or we go ahead  and make that business deal sign that contract
  • 00:16:51
    with somebody who's not able to do some of the  basics of working out problems with other people
  • 00:16:57
    I mean that's that's a terrible situation to get  yourself into so yes the why is because it's going
  • 00:17:07
    to be a hard road with that person if you have  to negotiate or work things out with them when
  • 00:17:15
    things get tough and it's much easier to spend the  time upfront to get to know them better you know
  • 00:17:24
    to kind of sus out whether or not they do handle  things in emotionally mature ways it's much more
  • 00:17:31
    economical to spend the time upfront than to pay  later how do you know you're right I mean most of
  • 00:17:37
    us are not clinicians so how do we know if we're  right in our diagnosis well to me you know it's
  • 00:17:43
    going off those Hallmark characteristics because  every one of those spells trouble for a long-term
  • 00:17:51
    relationship I mean if you don't have empathy or  you are not comfortable with intimacy or you can't
  • 00:17:58
    self-reflect for instance you're not going to be a  very good partner in any kind of relationship it's
  • 00:18:08
    going to be hard on the other person you don't  have to be a clinician to know that when somebody
  • 00:18:16
    gives you the cold shoulder speaks curtly to you  in a way that makes you feel very small refuses
  • 00:18:24
    to talk with you about problems because they  just don't like it they just don't see why they
  • 00:18:30
    should any normal human being is going to have a  reaction to that because the interpersonal quality
  • 00:18:39
    of a relationship with an emotionally immature  person is that sooner or later you're going to
  • 00:18:45
    end up emotionally taking care of them putting  them first and kind of agreeing that they're the
  • 00:18:54
    most important person in the relationship and that  gets tiring ing but you'll be able to tell that
  • 00:19:02
    and people do tell it early in relationships it's  that they haven't known what to call that and so
  • 00:19:11
    they might have those experiences and then chalk  it up to oh he was tired or you know I wasn't very
  • 00:19:18
    sensitive to her you know they'll make excuses for  it that's why I think it's so important for us to
  • 00:19:23
    know about emotional immaturity because some of  these things can be lifelong patterns that maybe
  • 00:19:31
    you don't want to get involved with your book  is about the new book is about disentangling
  • 00:19:36
    from eips and I I want to talk at Great length  about that because sometimes disentangling is
  • 00:19:42
    not really an option or or it's more difficult if  it's like your boss or your parent M than you know
  • 00:19:48
    a prospective romantic partner or business partner  anyway I do want to get to that but before we get
  • 00:19:53
    into that I'd love to talk a little bit more  about eips generally let me just throw a bunch
  • 00:19:59
    of questions at you and you you can you know  pick whichever one is interesting to you I'm
  • 00:20:03
    just curious like how common do you think this is  as a percentage of the population and how does an
  • 00:20:10
    EIP get made why are they this way yeah remember  what I said about the quality of the interpersonal
  • 00:20:18
    relationship is going to have a particular tone  to it like you're going to end up being the one
  • 00:20:28
    who feels responsible for emotionally stabilizing  the emotionally immature person they kind of give
  • 00:20:37
    you the job of making them feel better or calming  them down and they also give you the job of making
  • 00:20:45
    sure that their self-esteem stays good so those  two interactions are very Central to any kind
  • 00:20:54
    of emotionally immature relationship system your  you're going to find yourself put in the position
  • 00:21:00
    of being kind of an emotional caretaker or the  person who beefs up their self-esteem and that's
  • 00:21:09
    why I said it's very tiring because it's an energy  drain to be that alert to another person's inner
  • 00:21:17
    state so you know when you hear terms like energy  vampire or you know how draining someone is that's
  • 00:21:24
    because they're not able to modulate their own  emotions and soothe themselves and so they turn
  • 00:21:33
    to you to help them regulate their own emotions  now that's exactly what little kids do and we
  • 00:21:42
    expect them to do that that's normal and healthy  because they can't regulate their internal State
  • 00:21:51
    they need to be able to come to an adult and have  that adult understand with empathy what's going on
  • 00:21:58
    inside that child and then respond in ways that  soothe them help them learn how to calm down
  • 00:22:06
    and that's normal development the child gets their  self-esteem internalized through many interactions
  • 00:22:16
    with their parent where the parent loves that  child and adores that child and that little
  • 00:22:24
    child is just the cutest little thing ever and  the child feels delighted in and they internalize
  • 00:22:30
    that self-esteem well for emotionally immature  people what probably happens is that there is some
  • 00:22:39
    difficulty that occurs in the attachment process  or in the basic quality of relationship with
  • 00:22:50
    their parent or their caretakers something happens  where they're not able to trust and complete that
  • 00:23:00
    process of internalizing their own comfort and  their own ability to regulate their reactions and
  • 00:23:10
    responses to stress it may be that they experience  trauma trauma just stops development in certain
  • 00:23:19
    areas that might happen there might be external  things that break apart the parents ability to be
  • 00:23:27
    there for the child through no fault of the child  or the parent you know like natural disasters or
  • 00:23:34
    illnesses things like that but the problem is  that that child's developmental needs their
  • 00:23:41
    emotional needs don't go away because there's  been a natural disaster they continue and when
  • 00:23:49
    the parent may be too overwhelmed to respond to  the child the child's not getting something that
  • 00:23:56
    it needed to continue their psychological growth  their emotional development so that's how it may
  • 00:24:05
    happen I don't know that there are any studies  about emotional immaturity and how it develops
  • 00:24:13
    yet but we certainly have a lot of information  from attachment studies that when the child is
  • 00:24:21
    not in a securely attached relationship early in  life they don't pick up a lot of these things that
  • 00:24:30
    we assume a normal person to have like the empathy  and the ability to think of other people and then
  • 00:24:37
    for the how common is it I think you can read the  news or watch the who could she be referring to
  • 00:24:47
    who could she be referring to I mean I mean it's  all over the place um people Behaving Badly people
  • 00:24:56
    who react to stress by starting Wars you know  personally I think you know all you have to do
  • 00:25:03
    is read the newspaper and realize how widespread  emotional immaturity really is because you can
  • 00:25:09
    see the egocentrism you can see the refusal to  self-reflect you can see the lack of empathy
  • 00:25:16
    the Distortion the denial I think it's probably  very common but I have no idea of the percentage
  • 00:25:23
    I just suspect it's higher than we want it  to be I million other questions about eips
  • 00:25:29
    generally including whether they can ever change  but let's come back to that because I I do want to
  • 00:25:33
    get to the tactical information and guidance for  those of us who have eips in our life and want to
  • 00:25:40
    disentangle again disentangling is in the title  of your book what do you mean by that what does
  • 00:25:46
    disentangling look like yeah well you know I was  describing how emotionally immature people set
  • 00:25:54
    up their relationships I call it the emotionally  immature relationship system meaning that they're
  • 00:26:00
    looking for you to help emotionally stabilize  them and build up their self-esteem and they're
  • 00:26:06
    also looking to be the most important person in  that relationship that's what they're all about
  • 00:26:14
    so that system needs to entangle you in it for you  to be constantly available to them in a way that
  • 00:26:25
    makes them feel good okay makes them feel calm  makes them feel stabilized so we get entangled
  • 00:26:35
    because we end up finding ourselves pulled into a  role of kind of uh psychological caretaking that
  • 00:26:46
    we never anticipated we never signed up for and  yet we're deep into it we're we're dealing with
  • 00:26:53
    their reactions we're helping them to feel better  we're dealing with their anger there are a lot of
  • 00:26:59
    things going on that tend to pull people in to  a relationship that ends up feeling like you're
  • 00:27:07
    Tangled in it it doesn't feel like you're free to  be yourself it doesn't feel like you're important
  • 00:27:12
    to or you're just as important as them it feels  like they're the ones who are consuming all the
  • 00:27:19
    resources in the relationship and also because  emotionally immature people don't have a great
  • 00:27:25
    sense of self they tend to do this thing that has  been called enmeshment meaning that they kind of
  • 00:27:34
    draw other people into their sense of identity  so let's say that a woman marries a man who then
  • 00:27:44
    becomes part of her identity as a successful or  a socially well resected woman but he becomes
  • 00:27:54
    in this example kind of an object in her life  that is for the purpose of her own Identity or
  • 00:28:02
    let's say it's a mother who insists on telling her  grown child what to do how to live their life and
  • 00:28:10
    that enmeshment means that the boundaries are not  good the boundaries that should be there between
  • 00:28:17
    two individual adults are not being respected and  that other person is seen merely as an extension
  • 00:28:25
    of the emotionally immature person and that kind  of bond to someone who is seeing you as sort of
  • 00:28:33
    a an extension of themselves I mean that feels  awful and people want to at some point in that
  • 00:28:43
    they begin to want to get away they begin to have  to distance themselves from that person but what
  • 00:28:51
    I'm trying to do in the book is not just how do  you distance yourself from a a person like that
  • 00:28:58
    cuz most people figure that out but if you have  to be in relationship with them or you want to be
  • 00:29:04
    in relationship with them how do you go about  psychologically disentangling yourself from
  • 00:29:12
    them how do you find yourself after you've gotten  Tangled Up in being who the emotionally immature
  • 00:29:20
    person thinks you ought to be so disentangling  doesn't necessarily mean cutting off all ties
  • 00:29:26
    it can mean just having some inner boundaries yes  exactly that's a really good way of saying it it's
  • 00:29:33
    inner boundaries it's a sense of self-possession a  sense that I know where I begin and end and I know
  • 00:29:43
    where you start and I can tell the difference  between what I want and what you want and I'm
  • 00:29:48
    not going to be manipulated into losing that  distinction so what does that look like so if
  • 00:29:56
    you've got a boss or a spouse a sibling a friend  or a parent who's got an instrumental view of you
  • 00:30:04
    where they're in mesed in a way that you just  become an extension of their ego how would you
  • 00:30:12
    manage that on an ongoing basis if you didn't want  to cut them out of your life yeah well the fact is
  • 00:30:19
    that as long as you're unconscious of the process  as long as you're unconscious or unaware of what
  • 00:30:27
    is happening between you like what the dynamic  is that you're being kind of maneuvered into
  • 00:30:35
    this particular role or you're being maneuvered  into following these expectations or else you're
  • 00:30:41
    a bad person if you're not aware of that you  probably are going to get maneuvered into that
  • 00:30:48
    because they're so good at it you know believe  me they they've gotten really good at getting
  • 00:30:53
    other people to take care of them and so so if  you don't have that awareness of the dynamic
  • 00:31:01
    you're going to move into that relationship and  be kind of taken over by them so for me it seems
  • 00:31:10
    crucial that people be aware of what emotional  immaturity looks like and what its motives are
  • 00:31:18
    its motive is not to make your life miserable  or to harm you or anything like that the mo of
  • 00:31:27
    the emotionally immature relationship system is I  can't do it on my own I'm immature I don't have a
  • 00:31:36
    strong sense of self I can't figure the world out  very well and I need somebody to run interference
  • 00:31:43
    for me I need somebody to take care of me they're  not bad people at all but they're scared people
  • 00:31:50
    and they're inadequate in many respects and so you  know if you have an Oda of empathy you're probably
  • 00:31:59
    going to sense that about them and it can pull you  into a relationship where you know you really end
  • 00:32:07
    up letting them get away with too much and you set  your boundaries too late and these are things that
  • 00:32:14
    can be avoided if we're aware of some of these  signs of emotional immaturity the first step in
  • 00:32:22
    not getting and mesed is to begin to ask yourself  whether or not this person seems to be able to
  • 00:32:32
    take my needs into account as well as theirs can  they handle problems can they handle frustrations
  • 00:32:39
    what happens if we have a difference of opinion  what happens if I need their help do they respond
  • 00:32:46
    are they always too busy I mean what's the quality  of the relationship and when sooner or later you
  • 00:32:56
    begin to feel taken advantage of or it begins  to feel like it's kind of outweighed on their
  • 00:33:03
    side about who's getting the most attention and  benefit from the relationship when that starts
  • 00:33:08
    to happen that's when you need to become very  observant and very objective about what's going
  • 00:33:18
    on in the relationship and by that I mean that you  begin to observe how they're behaving what they're
  • 00:33:26
    doing and you kind of narrate it to yourself  so you it increases your objectivity and your
  • 00:33:35
    perspective so that you're not pulled in to this  entangled relationship where you're just reacting
  • 00:33:42
    emotionally for emotionally immature people  it's a dream come true when you go in and you
  • 00:33:48
    are reacting emotionally to them because they're  so effective at using that to get what they want
  • 00:33:55
    so when you p hold back and become objective and  observational you are freeing yourself from that
  • 00:34:05
    emotionally immature relationship system and  you're giving yourself an opportunity to really
  • 00:34:13
    be yourself in that person's presence instead of  just the reflection of what they want to see so
  • 00:34:23
    that being yourself is so crucially important for  therapy patients people I've worked with who have
  • 00:34:30
    people in their lives like this that's the number  one thing we have to do is just to get them to pay
  • 00:34:36
    attention to what they want how they feel what  they think is right because they get so muddled
  • 00:34:45
    up with being consumed by what the emotionally  immature person wants I mean when that system is
  • 00:34:52
    working that's where your thoughts go is yeah but  what about them what what's going to happen to him
  • 00:34:58
    what's going to happen to her it's like remember  to take care of yourself first and to make sure
  • 00:35:05
    that you set boundaries that give you the space  to be in touch with yourself like that coming up
  • 00:35:12
    Lindsey C Gibson talks about what often happens to  your own sense of self when you're in relationship
  • 00:35:17
    or even just in a conversation with an EIP how  to interact with eips more effectively how she
  • 00:35:24
    reacts when she comes across an EIP in nature  whether or not eips can change and the limits of
  • 00:35:29
    estrangement a big theme in the book in your new  book is authenticity how if you were raised by
  • 00:35:39
    an EIP or you're in a relationship a deeply in  meshed relationship with an EIP you can these
  • 00:35:45
    are your words here you can trade authenticity  for approval so you kind of lose your sense
  • 00:35:50
    of self because you've got this interpersonal  mind virus going on yeah and I if I'm hearing
  • 00:35:56
    you correctly when the rubber hits the road  and you're in an interaction with an EIP you
  • 00:36:02
    really need mindfulness self-awareness to see  okay am I being who this person wants me to be
  • 00:36:07
    right now or I being who I am and that seems  tricky in it of itself because it's possible
  • 00:36:13
    that you've actually never explored that question  of who you are and what you want yeah isn't that
  • 00:36:18
    something I mean that is really what it comes down  to because if you have been raised by emotionally
  • 00:36:26
    immature parents yourself you've been trained  to put yourself at the very back of the line
  • 00:36:33
    you've been trained to think about how what you  do is going to affect the people in your family
  • 00:36:39
    you've been trained to think about how is Mom  or Dad going to feel about this how do I keep
  • 00:36:45
    them calm so yeah absolutely you can come to an  adult relationship with an emotionally immature
  • 00:36:53
    person and if you've been raised with them  you are automatically like you said Dan you're
  • 00:37:00
    automatically going to put them first it's just  going to feel natural it's going to feel normal
  • 00:37:05
    to do that and then you're going to lose touch  with what is actually going on inside yourself
  • 00:37:13
    so when you brought up that term the mindfulness  exactly it's like you forget to even experience
  • 00:37:20
    your own presence it's not something that you've  ever been trained to do if you were raised by an
  • 00:37:27
    emotionally immature parent and it's so important  it's interesting when I think about this in my own
  • 00:37:32
    life I don't think I was raised by eips I I maybe  I'm not seeing my parents clearly but I think they
  • 00:37:37
    were quite mature and pretty great parents but I  I believe there are people in my life including
  • 00:37:44
    some bosses over time and particularly charismatic  colleagues and actually not a few family members
  • 00:37:52
    who fit the description and when I interpolate  back to those interactions I really see I don't
  • 00:37:59
    love the word authenticity I love the concept but  the word sometimes it can be so vague or cliche
  • 00:38:06
    that I I lose a foothold in in the true meaning of  it and yet I can really see that there are times
  • 00:38:13
    when I'm dealing with an EIP that I do lose my  authenticity I'm playing into their hands because
  • 00:38:19
    I'm so eager to like not be the bad guy exactly  exactly and they are very Adept at giving you a
  • 00:38:29
    sense of moral obligation to do that it's not just  take care of me and make me feel good about myself
  • 00:38:37
    it is you have a moral obligation to put me first  and take care of me because that's what good Sons
  • 00:38:46
    good husbands good friends do and then you get  kind of emotionally coerced into feeling bad
  • 00:38:54
    because it generates guilt or shame self-doubt and  what does a self-reflective person do when they
  • 00:39:02
    have self-doubt they start looking for information  outside of themselves to kind of get a read on the
  • 00:39:09
    situation because maybe they're wrong you know  but that is like you say that is like playing
  • 00:39:17
    right into the Maneuvers that emotionally mature  people do to keep themselves feeling safe and in
  • 00:39:25
    control actually don't like the word manipulate  because I don't think they're doing it consciously
  • 00:39:31
    I don't think they're doing it to harm anybody I  don't think they're trying to make other people's
  • 00:39:37
    lives miserable I think these are all defensive  Maneuvers to keep them from feeling inadequate
  • 00:39:45
    or afraid or something really really awful  I think I think they're trying to stay away
  • 00:39:53
    from some inner fears and some insecurities ities  that they really don't want to get in touch with
  • 00:39:59
    they're not trying to do that at your expense  it's just like a person who's going under for
  • 00:40:04
    the last time it's not trying to drown the person  who's rescuing them it's just they need someone
  • 00:40:09
    to stand on top of yeah to get a breath of air I  appreciate that perspective do you get ever get
  • 00:40:15
    uh perversely excited when you meet an EIP out in  nature you know at a family barbue or a whatever
  • 00:40:23
    because you it gets you to like it gives you an  opportunity to just study them the wild actually
  • 00:40:28
    I I have to confess that I do get a little  excitement when when I encounter them in the
  • 00:40:34
    wild just because I know what I'm looking for now  you know and then let me also hasten to add that
  • 00:40:43
    I also get excited when I run into emotionally  mature people because I can tell who they are
  • 00:40:50
    too you know they're the ones who listen they're  the ones who remember what you said you know two
  • 00:40:56
    minutes minutes ago who try to integrate what you  told them into something else that they're asking
  • 00:41:02
    you about you feel calm in their presence you feel  safe in their presence so I get excited by both of
  • 00:41:09
    them the fun is not the analyzing them the fun is  not getting pulled in to something where in the
  • 00:41:18
    past you know maybe I would have lost myself or  lost my perspective with this person yeah I can
  • 00:41:24
    imagine it's like testing your skills real time  yeah exactly exactly you talked about emotionally
  • 00:41:31
    mature people and how it's fun to run into them  and your nervous system senses it you feel safe
  • 00:41:36
    calm heard understood brief tangent I recently  read somewhere I think it was on there's this
  • 00:41:42
    excellent newsletter called the margin Alan and  either the author or somebody she was quoting
  • 00:41:48
    talked about how understanding is actually just  another name for love which I actually find that
  • 00:41:53
    an interesting concept yeah but anyway you talked  about how when you're with an emotionally mature
  • 00:41:58
    person you feel like they kind of get you they're  clicked in they're listening they're switched
  • 00:42:03
    on and I know if I'll be able to articulate this  well it put me in mind of a kind of definitional
  • 00:42:08
    question about emotionally immature people because  you spent a lot of time in this interview dwelling
  • 00:42:13
    on this concept of emotional enmeshment they feel  like they're drowning they feel unsafe so they
  • 00:42:18
    co-opt other people as life rafts in a hostile  World they didn't get the support they needed
  • 00:42:24
    perhaps as a kid and so they're just constantly  latching on to it now and yet when you listed the
  • 00:42:30
    many Hallmarks of emotional immaturity there were  other aspects to it like interpreting everything
  • 00:42:35
    through the lens of the self being totally  self-centered believing that you're right all
  • 00:42:41
    the time I think you mentioned that but maybe you  didn't but I at least I okay you did mention it so
  • 00:42:46
    I feel like I know a lot of people who have those  characteristics perhaps even myself in Spades and
  • 00:42:53
    maybe they don't have the whole inment thing at  least clearly and so I'm just wondering would
  • 00:42:58
    they not qualify fully as emotionally immature  what I look for is kind of the Opposites of
  • 00:43:06
    those Hallmark characteristics in other words  let's not forget that if we are nervous sick
  • 00:43:16
    fatigued going through an emergency our emotional  maturity will probably plummet nobody is at their
  • 00:43:25
    most impath non-egocentric best when they're  really sick or things are really going wrong
  • 00:43:32
    so regression absolutely can happen to all of  us I certainly don't count myself out of that
  • 00:43:41
    because I know how I've been when I've been in  some rough situations it's like you are not your
  • 00:43:46
    best self you're not thinking about other people  in the same way you would when all your needs are
  • 00:43:52
    being taken care of so we have to keep that in  mind but you know a person can show egocentric
  • 00:44:00
    qualities they can have poor empathy at times they  may not be great at self-reflection they may get
  • 00:44:08
    uncomfortable when things get too emotionally  intimate and you have all these characteristics
  • 00:44:13
    but if you have the ability to be otherwise at  other times to me that's a person who does have
  • 00:44:23
    adequate emotional mat because at times they are  capable of true empathy I mean they're just doing
  • 00:44:31
    it to get what they want they really can't help  but feel what somebody else feels they really
  • 00:44:39
    do take other people into account you know like  maybe they wouldn't do something because it just
  • 00:44:44
    wouldn't be right to the other people they don't  know these people but they just don't think it's
  • 00:44:49
    fair that they do this because they have that  sense of other people are just as real as I am
  • 00:44:57
    you know they may shy away from emotional intimacy  at times but when it comes right down to it with
  • 00:45:04
    their good friend or their mate or whoever or  their child they can be right there they can
  • 00:45:10
    be fully present in the moment they can tolerate  it well they can be available for other people so
  • 00:45:17
    the way I look at it is you can maybe grow up in  circumstances that teach you a lot of emotionally
  • 00:45:24
    immature quality qualities that you may show  as a matter of habit or familiarity but if you
  • 00:45:33
    have the other characteristics that ability to  have enough of a sense of self that you can care
  • 00:45:42
    about other people care about yourself be kind  that kind of thing see reality for what it is
  • 00:45:51
    then I would consider that person fundamentally  emotionally mature enough okay even if they have
  • 00:45:58
    some of these other characteristics I mean it's  like a lifetime work if that's the case because
  • 00:46:05
    you have that self-reflection and so you're able  to watch yourself and realize o I didn't like
  • 00:46:14
    how I did that or o it's not really a great style  that's not the way I want to treat people and so
  • 00:46:21
    you can learn and mature and hopefully uh people  do do that across their entire lifespan let's get
  • 00:46:30
    back to disentangling creating some distance from  an EIP per your book can be quite difficult it can
  • 00:46:40
    lead to difficult interactions you describe how  some people on the receiving end of a difficult
  • 00:46:46
    interaction with an EIP can experience brain  scramble where you just can't think clearly what
  • 00:46:52
    are some tactics and tools we can use if we're in  a heated interaction with an EIP and we're trying
  • 00:46:59
    to stand our ground yeah I would say that many  times when we're in a heated interaction with
  • 00:47:07
    an EIP and particularly if we're trying to stand  our ground we're probably going to come out of
  • 00:47:15
    that interaction exhausted and frustrated because  the more reactive that you get and the more you
  • 00:47:24
    fasten on an out come that involves their changing  the less likely you are to handle it in a way that
  • 00:47:33
    is going to be best for you so it's not a good  thing to go into an interaction trying to sort of
  • 00:47:44
    fight your way out of it because the emotionally  immature person is going to change and shift and
  • 00:47:53
    evade and deny and you know know you're going to  be so frustrated because they don't fight fair
  • 00:48:00
    they don't fight objectively and if you're trying  to stand your ground you can read that as you're
  • 00:48:06
    trying to set a boundary of some sort that to  them is like you know you're threatening them
  • 00:48:14
    with Kryptonite there's an existential horror  they have of someone who is insisting that
  • 00:48:23
    they will not be controlled by them especially  with narcissistic types it threatens their story
  • 00:48:30
    about the world which is that with enough pressure  with enough intimidation with enough strength they
  • 00:48:37
    can have what they want and they can get other  people to capitulate so it's much better I think
  • 00:48:45
    if people can again remain self-possessed think  of what the outcome is not trying to change the
  • 00:48:53
    other person or change the relation ship but just  think about the specific outcome that you want
  • 00:48:59
    from this interaction and then try to stay calm  and oriented toward that outcome that tends to
  • 00:49:09
    work better and then it's a question of repeat  repeat repeat repeat because the emotionally
  • 00:49:16
    immature person does not do well with a lot of  repetition like that someone who just perseveres
  • 00:49:22
    with their point of view I mean that becomes very  uninteresting to the emotionally immature person
  • 00:49:28
    lots of times they just back off or they bring it  to a halt themselves because they don't know what
  • 00:49:34
    to do with that they're used to people giving in  to them either giving in or mimicking or engaging
  • 00:49:40
    in the kind of histrionics that are perversely  nourishing to them yes so just to to repeat
  • 00:49:46
    it back to you you it seems like if you're in a  difficult interaction with an EIP or a series of
  • 00:49:53
    difficult interactions it's helpful to have a very  discret goal that does not involve changing that
  • 00:49:58
    person or permanently Shifting the relationship  you have a very discret goal it maybe like I you
  • 00:50:04
    know want to make clear that this one thing you're  asking of me I'm not going to do just by way of an
  • 00:50:09
    example and you repeat it clearly and consistently  and it's likely that they'll just get bored and
  • 00:50:19
    that's how you can get what you want well that's  how you can stick to your position see sticking
  • 00:50:25
    to your position is a major accomplishment with  emotionally immature people I mean if you can do
  • 00:50:33
    that if you can go into an interaction uh with a  certain goal in mind for yourself and you walk out
  • 00:50:41
    of that interaction with that same goal I mean  Hallelujah that is a fabulous accomplishment
  • 00:50:49
    because they haven't scrambled your brain or  pulled you off of your own path to the point
  • 00:50:56
    where you don't even remember what you were trying  to do in the interaction which is what happens a
  • 00:51:02
    lot you talk about in these interactions you to  have a a discret and realistic goal and not to you
  • 00:51:11
    know be looking for changing the other person the  EIP fundamentally can an EIP ever change if they
  • 00:51:19
    have self-reflection if they have a little bit of  self-reflection I mean that's what it takes for
  • 00:51:26
    anybody to change how can you change yourself if  you have no desire or no ability to look at your
  • 00:51:34
    own behavior I mean that that for me that's the  absolute essential and sometimes it's only when
  • 00:51:43
    things get really bad that someone is able to be  self-reflective with substance abuse we you know
  • 00:51:52
    have often heard that thing about hitting bottom  and so forth and it doesn't necessarily have to
  • 00:51:58
    be hitting bottom but it has to be some experience  that brings self-reflection into the picture for
  • 00:52:06
    that person whatever that might be and once they  have a little bit of self-reflection which may be
  • 00:52:16
    brought about by a family member who says uh you  know if you don't get therapy I'm not coming home
  • 00:52:24
    anymore or if we can't work this out and if you  can't change some of these things I can't stay
  • 00:52:32
    with you lots of times people are motivated  extrinsically if they're emotionally immature
  • 00:52:39
    because they are realizing this is what's going  to happen if I continue on this path that's the
  • 00:52:45
    beginning of self-reflection like people who  enjoy introspection do self-reflection because
  • 00:52:52
    it's fun for them for the OT ially immature  person they may have to be dragged Kicking and
  • 00:52:59
    Screaming into self-reflection but once they  start to do that you can in therapy you know
  • 00:53:07
    like you can actually nurture that Curiosity  about them and how they got to be that way and
  • 00:53:14
    so I think they can change I just think that  getting them to the point of self-reflection
  • 00:53:20
    is is really the very very hard part which is why  you advise that we go into these encounters with
  • 00:53:27
    realistic expectations not like holistic change  expectations exactly yeah because if you expect
  • 00:53:33
    the other person to change I mean you have zero  control over that for one thing and it's usually
  • 00:53:41
    a goal that you're going to fail at which is not  a great way to go into an interaction as I keep
  • 00:53:46
    saying the book is about disentangling one way  to disentangle is complete estrangement however
  • 00:53:54
    you say that there are some limits to a strange  man it may not solve everything what do you mean
  • 00:53:58
    by that you know it seems like moving away from  somebody or not seeing them anymore could be a
  • 00:54:09
    perfect solution to a difficult relationship but  what often happens is that because human beings
  • 00:54:18
    carry the patterning of their relationships inside  them I mean that's how we grow up that is how we
  • 00:54:25
    psychologically mature is by internalizing  interactions internalizing other people's
  • 00:54:32
    feelings and statements and so forth we build our  personalities from what's on the outside but once
  • 00:54:39
    it's in there once we've patterned ourselves we  can move across the country never see the person
  • 00:54:47
    again and still carry around the beliefs about  ourself the attitudes toward life the sense of
  • 00:54:57
    inadequacy that may have been our experience with  the emotionally immature person we carry this with
  • 00:55:05
    us so when people attempt kind of the geographical  cure or the estrangement Cure you have to realize
  • 00:55:16
    that it may still be necessary to seek out therapy  for all the internalized patterns the impact of
  • 00:55:24
    that on you that you still carry around you know  personally inside myself in the therapy session
  • 00:55:30
    I'm not thinking gosh how can I get them to  cut out contact with this toxic parent I'm
  • 00:55:36
    not thinking that I'm thinking how can we get this  person to stay connected with themselves and stay
  • 00:55:43
    in touch with their own needs and feelings even  while they're interacting with this very difficult
  • 00:55:50
    person how can we get them to develop the inner  strength and the sense of healthy entitlement to
  • 00:55:57
    be their own person as they interact with this  this immature person let's do the necessary
  • 00:56:04
    work on the inside to strengthen the person in  their own individuality not just take them out
  • 00:56:13
    of the situation and still have them be living  all of this inside themselves what do you find
  • 00:56:21
    generally Works in terms of building up somebody's  individual it I think in therapy when you go in
  • 00:56:29
    and you sit with somebody who looks at you like  you're really there and treats you like you're
  • 00:56:37
    psychologically real that somebody's in there  that you have something to say and that even your
  • 00:56:46
    smallest feelings are important when you get that  experience with somebody you begin to feel what
  • 00:56:55
    it's like to feel like an individual and a lot  of people haven't had that unfortunately in some
  • 00:57:02
    of their major relationships so in therapy you're  actually getting the experience of being treated
  • 00:57:09
    like an individual you know but this could happen  with a with an excellent spouse this could happen
  • 00:57:15
    with a best friend it's like people say that how  important relationships have been in their lives
  • 00:57:21
    and and this is why because that person recognizes  your individuality they relate to you as a person
  • 00:57:31
    who has their own thoughts and who has their own  feelings and they treat you like you're real and
  • 00:57:37
    it helps you develop yourself I mean you believe  it when somebody sees that in you and so learning
  • 00:57:45
    how to reconceptualize yourself as an important  individual who is real on the inside and who is
  • 00:57:55
    just as important as everybody else is like a  tremendous antidote to what you are conditioned
  • 00:58:05
    to accept with emotionally immature relationships  the antidote to an EIP is an EMP yes and also your
  • 00:58:16
    own sense of individuality and worthiness yeah  which is developed through interacting with the
  • 00:58:24
    emotionally who can attune to you can mentalize in  other words can see you as somebody who has their
  • 00:58:30
    own psychological reality that can wake something  up in you and you see oh yeah I have agency as
  • 00:58:36
    well yeah I love that that's so well said to  wake something up in you that is what you hope
  • 00:58:43
    will happen because a lot of times emotionally  immature people kind of put you to sleep you
  • 00:58:51
    know it's like you're under their spell or it's  impolite to notice things that they're doing or
  • 00:58:58
    how you feel so yeah that sensation of being woken  up to that is extremely important yeah I'm glad
  • 00:59:06
    you brought that up coming up Lindsay talks about  why she encourages what she calls alternatives to
  • 00:59:12
    forgiveness handling your own emotionally immature  Tendencies and how to prevent brain scramble when
  • 00:59:18
    you're talking to somebody who is not making any  attempt to understand what you are actually saying
  • 00:59:28
    are you the biggest worrier in your family or  your friend group are you the type of person who
  • 00:59:32
    Dooms Scrolls compulsively well stop scrolling  grab your weighted blanket and your headphones
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    because uh I might have a new podcast that could  help from wondery Don't Panic leans into our most
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    do you do if you encounter a bear or a swarm of  killer bees or you find yourself in quicksand
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    app if you've interacted with an EIP either  on a super deep level as you know having
  • 01:00:20
    been raised by one or two having had an intimate  relationship with one or even on a less in mesed
  • 01:00:27
    level like working with or working for somebody  who's emotionally immature if you've had this
  • 01:00:33
    experience you may be pissed about it and you know  I'm just wondering like is forgiveness the right
  • 01:00:40
    move you in your book talk about something you  call alternatives to forgiveness yeah I think it's
  • 01:00:47
    really been a big cultural emphasis on forgiveness  and I I mean some of it is religious but I think
  • 01:00:56
    it's now kind of edged over into being you know  sort of a recommendation for mental health and I
  • 01:01:05
    think it's so unfair because I don't think people  have a lot of control over whether they're able to
  • 01:01:15
    forgive somebody forgiveness I think comes to you  when it's ready when you're ready I don't think
  • 01:01:24
    it's something that you can healthfully push  yourself into or aspire to because forgiveness
  • 01:01:32
    has to be something that genuinely comes from  the core of yourself at least in my definition
  • 01:01:39
    of forgiveness it's not lip service it is a  almost a reconsideration of what happened to
  • 01:01:47
    you to where you can respond with Compassion  maybe for the other person person or certainly
  • 01:01:55
    for understanding that person's limitations that  made them do that or maybe for some people the
  • 01:02:04
    wholesale religious forgiveness works okay I'm  not denying that that happens I'm just saying
  • 01:02:11
    to suggest that as a therapeutic approach or  a therapeutic method I don't think is fair to
  • 01:02:19
    people and I certainly tell people in therapy  that that's not a goal we have to have right
  • 01:02:26
    now has nothing to do with them being a good  person has nothing to do with their recovery
  • 01:02:32
    what will influence their recovery is they're  working through the feelings of what happened
  • 01:02:38
    to them and owning that as a part of their new  individuality and when they can do that later on
  • 01:02:48
    they can decide whether or not forgiveness is in  the cards for this relationship okay but it's not
  • 01:02:55
    something that you can make yourself do so we have  to be respectful of that so what would fall into
  • 01:03:01
    the category of an alternative working through the  feelings I see I see it's not something there's
  • 01:03:08
    not like a cousin of forgiveness that you're  recommending instead H is there a cousin to
  • 01:03:13
    forgiveness that's a that's a great question maybe  like understanding the roots of it like if I can
  • 01:03:19
    understand why you're in eiip without forgiving  you Yes actually the the understanding or the
  • 01:03:26
    insight to why a person is that way can lead to  a kind of compassion now as a good human being
  • 01:03:39
    maybe at some level a part of you could feel that  compassion but there might be this other part that
  • 01:03:47
    is nowhere near forgiveness I mean we we're  a multiplicity of parts in our personalities
  • 01:03:53
    that's the way I look at it and a lot of people  look at it we're not one homogeneous attitude so
  • 01:04:01
    yes you can have compassion for them you can have  understanding uh it can make you less angry but
  • 01:04:09
    as far as the Forgiveness goes again that belongs  to a part of you that we probably grow into that
  • 01:04:18
    maybe is is another way to look at it but maybe  we don't and I just think that's all right too
  • 01:04:25
    one of the things you talk about in the book is  handling your own emotionally immature Tendencies
  • 01:04:31
    how we can you know notice when we're displaying  internally externally or both one of the Hallmarks
  • 01:04:39
    it reminded me of a story for the time I was on  a my the first vacation I ever took with my wife
  • 01:04:44
    and well my then girlfriend now wife and I we  were taking off on a plane going to London and
  • 01:04:50
    I said it's the me and you show starring me and  it is definitely an emotionally it was a joke
  • 01:04:57
    but definitely an emotionally immature thing you  know like you know I'm the more important person
  • 01:05:01
    in the relationship so what do you recommend  when we're seeing this kind of tendency come
  • 01:05:06
    up in our own mind it's such an ongoing I mean  to me and and in my life it's such an ongoing
  • 01:05:16
    Discovery because half the time these are things  that we have learned either because we watched our
  • 01:05:23
    parents do it or our own natural developmentally  appropriate grandiosity wasn't helped to kind of
  • 01:05:36
    come back down to earth and integrate with other  people and so you know we can have these pockets
  • 01:05:45
    of old learning or incomplete developmental tasks  that pop up sometimes in very surprising ways
  • 01:05:55
    and so we get to when we're aware of emotional  immaturity we get to recognize that in ourselves
  • 01:06:03
    or we get to see it and then ask ourselves is that  what I think is that or is that the way I want to
  • 01:06:10
    be or you know whatever and we can begin to choose  we begin to create oursel we're creating ourselves
  • 01:06:17
    every day I mean maturation goes on the entire  lifespan and we get to choose choose which way
  • 01:06:26
    we want to go we always have these paths in front  of us these potential outcomes and we can decide
  • 01:06:33
    what we want to nurture in ourselves and what we  don't give you an example when I was working on
  • 01:06:40
    one of my previous books I like to camp out at  the dining room table we have sort of an open
  • 01:06:45
    concept house and so I would camp out at the on  the dining room table and when my husband would
  • 01:06:52
    go in and out of the sliding door to the deck I  would shoot dagger looks at him because he was
  • 01:06:58
    disturbing me now I'm the one who's camped out in  the middle of the house right and he brought that
  • 01:07:06
    to my attention in in His Kind reasonable way and  pointed out that I was taking up all the room and
  • 01:07:14
    then being mad at him for living his life in our  house all right now that was something that I had
  • 01:07:21
    learned from my child which was I learned not  to bother anybody you know if somebody looked
  • 01:07:28
    like they were busy you you know walked on tiptoes  around them so that they wouldn't get upset with
  • 01:07:34
    you well my husband isn't thinking like that and  so he's living his life and I had to realize oh
  • 01:07:44
    that's a pretty egocentric position where I'm  sitting down where I want to work and then I'm
  • 01:07:51
    expecting and assuming that he's going to honor  the fact that I need peace and quiet so when
  • 01:07:58
    that was brought to my attention self-reflection  started Choice started do I want to be like this
  • 01:08:06
    do I want to make him feel rotten for opening  the door no that's not who I want to be I get
  • 01:08:12
    to decide who I want to be if somebody will you  know bring it to my attention so I mean that's
  • 01:08:19
    just a personal example but there are a million  things like that where it does get brought to our
  • 01:08:24
    attention how we want to develop ourselves and  which way we want to go yes and the good news is
  • 01:08:32
    that if you're paying attention you'll notice that  it feels better to not be an [ __ ] and that's a
  • 01:08:37
    very positive upward spiral absolutely because  after that when I decided to take my little
  • 01:08:45
    laptop and go downstairs I had a like little add  a girl pat on the back because I'm becoming the
  • 01:08:52
    kind of person who in my own house is considerate  of this person I love more than anybody yeah now
  • 01:09:00
    that feels good to me and it's meaningful so  I'm acting in line with my principles and I my
  • 01:09:07
    self-esteem goes up as I'm living in that way as  opposed to thoughtlessly are there things that I
  • 01:09:15
    should have asked you but failed to ask you any  any place you wanted to go that I didn't bring
  • 01:09:19
    you the only thing I I would like to add is you  had mention brain scramble earlier and I I do want
  • 01:09:28
    to mention that there's this thing that happens  with emotionally immature people where you end
  • 01:09:36
    up not being able to get your thoughts straight  you're not able to say what you really mean you
  • 01:09:44
    lose your track of thought you become confused you  start to wonder if you know maybe you're crazy the
  • 01:09:54
    effect on people by emotionally immature people  can be so disorienting and make you feel so much
  • 01:10:04
    self-doubt and it's important for people to know  that that's normal okay when you try to maybe talk
  • 01:10:14
    to an emotionally immature person about something  difficult you should just expect that you may fail
  • 01:10:23
    to get your point across you may fail to do the  kind of argument that you had planned because
  • 01:10:32
    when somebody is not interested in what you have  to say and when they're not listening to you when
  • 01:10:39
    they're going off on tangents when they're acting  like there's something wrong with you that you're
  • 01:10:45
    disagreeing with them that is very disorienting  and destabilizing okay okay so I just I just
  • 01:10:54
    want to mention that because I don't want people  to continue to feel like they're weak or can't
  • 01:11:02
    keep their thoughts straight when they have an  encounter with an emotionally immature person I
  • 01:11:08
    want them to realize that's part and parcel of  their interactional way of doing things and if
  • 01:11:15
    you're aware of that then you can change it then  you can go into it again with a simplified focused
  • 01:11:24
    outcome in mind where you don't get pulled off  into these things that don't make any sense so I
  • 01:11:32
    just want to mention that because a lot of people  don't understand how discombobulating it is when
  • 01:11:38
    another person is not listening it's like if a  person wants to understand what you're saying it
  • 01:11:47
    doesn't matter how you say it they're going to  do the work to understand you if a person does
  • 01:11:53
    doesn't want to understand you then it doesn't  matter what you say because they are not even
  • 01:12:00
    going to be listening to what you're saying so  it's not like you can ever find the perfect way
  • 01:12:08
    to approach them because they're not going to  be taking it in in the first place so I just
  • 01:12:13
    want people to know that that sensation of brain  scramble or not being able to get your thoughts
  • 01:12:20
    together not being able to express yourself that  is probably a side effect of interacting with an
  • 01:12:27
    emotionally immature person that's helpful  what do you recommend in terms of preventing
  • 01:12:33
    the brain scramble and is it helpful you talked  earlier about having a simple goal going into
  • 01:12:39
    one of these interactions would that be helpful in  terms of preventing brain scramble and what would
  • 01:12:44
    an example of a simple goal be let's say that  you want to tell somebody that you can't post
  • 01:12:54
    Thanksgiving at your house this year you want  to tell a parent or a good friend or whatever
  • 01:13:00
    and you know that this is going to upset them  because you always host Thanksgiving so you're
  • 01:13:05
    going to have to tell them something they don't  want to hear when you go into that situation you
  • 01:13:12
    have to decide what is an achievable outcome now  the achievable outcome in that case is not that
  • 01:13:19
    my mother my best friend whatever are going to  be happy with my decision or they're going to
  • 01:13:26
    gracefully accept my position because maybe the  opposite is going to be true they're going to be
  • 01:13:32
    upset they're going to try to persuade me they're  going to try to guilt me but you can have a goal
  • 01:13:39
    that can be achieved which might be I'm going to  tell them what my preferences are what I'm going
  • 01:13:47
    to do or not do and then if they try to persuade  me I will repeat myself and if it keeps going on
  • 01:13:57
    and it seems like we're getting upset with each  other I'm going to ask if we can table this and
  • 01:14:04
    talk about it later okay there's my game plan I'm  going to say it I'm going to repeat it I'm going
  • 01:14:10
    to ask to table it if it's not going well now  I'm prepared and that's all every one of those
  • 01:14:16
    things is under my control I like that before I  let you go can you just remind everybody of the
  • 01:14:22
    name of your new book maybe the names of your  prior books any other resources you've put out
  • 01:14:27
    into the world yeah the new book that's coming  out July 1st is disentangling from emotionally
  • 01:14:34
    immature people and it's really geared toward all  kinds of relationships with emotionally immature
  • 01:14:41
    people not just with parents it's gosh this  is like the fourth book I think in the series
  • 01:14:48
    that began with adult children of emotionally  immature parents which was the best seller that
  • 01:14:54
    really made the Big Splash and it's a natural  evolution of that book I do want to mention to
  • 01:15:00
    Dan that if people want to go to my website to  see additional information they can go there to
  • 01:15:07
    Lindsay Gibson psyd s.com we'll put a link to  that in the show notes meantime Lindsay thank
  • 01:15:18
    you very much always great to talk to you thanks  for having me Dan it's been a pleasure likewise
  • 01:15:25
    thanks again to Lindsay always great to  talk to lindsy C Gibson thank you as well
  • 01:15:29
    to you for listening really appreciate that go  give us a rating or a review that really helps
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Tags
  • emotional immaturity
  • relationships
  • psychology
  • self-awareness
  • empathy
  • boundaries
  • disentangling
  • forgiveness
  • authenticity
  • self-reflection