What is the main topic of the discussion?

The main topic is the creation of a specialized school in Niagara for low-income students and its implications.

Who are the participants in the debate?

Participants include Annie Kidder, Joseph Flessa, Rebecca Coulter, and Doretta Wilson.

What is the purpose of the new school being discussed?

The school aims to support students from low-income families and help them pursue post-secondary education.

How do the debaters feel about the new school?

Opinions are mixed; some see it as a positive step, while others express concerns about segregation and stigmatization.

What is one major concern about the school?

A major concern is that the school may potentially segregate students based on socioeconomic status.

Are specialty schools a topic of concern in this discussion?

Yes, the panel discusses the proliferation of specialty schools and their implications for public education.

Has there been similar educational initiatives elsewhere?

Yes, the school is compared to charter schools in California that focus more time on task.

What are the prospects of such a model of schooling according to the debaters?

It's debated; some see potential if modeled correctly, while others are skeptical.

What alternative does Annie Kidder suggest instead of specialized schools?

Annie suggests providing extra support within existing public schools instead of creating specialized schools.

What is a suggested benefit of the specialized program structure?

Supporters argue it allows for focused instruction and could reduce the dropout rate for low-income students.

An Education for All?

00:32:43

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMY6zEYv7Wg

Summary

TLDRThis debate discusses a specialized school that aims to address the issue of educational inequality by targeting low-income students in the Niagara region. Contributions from educational experts reveal a spectrum of opinions. Some panelists appreciate the school for addressing systemic issues and offering targeted support to disadvantaged students. However, there is concern that such schools may lead to increased segregation by isolating students based on socioeconomic status rather than integrating them within existing public systems. The risks of stigmatization and the need for a holistic, inclusive approach to education, which alleviates poverty's impact on student success without creating separate identities, are heavily emphasized. The discussion also touches on systemic diversity across the educational board, raising questions about the viability of such specialized sections addressing broader challenges.

Takeaways

🎓 The debate centers on a specialized school for low-income students in Niagara.
🤔 Panelists have mixed views on the school's potential effectiveness.
🚸 Concerns about segregation and stigmatization are significant.
🚌 The school offers transportation to attract students from across the region.
📚 The program is compared to California's charter schools for intensive learning.
💡 There's emphasis on needing comprehensive anti-poverty strategies.
🏫 Annie Kidder suggests enhancing support within public schools.
🌍 The broader implication of specialized schools on public education is debated.
📊 EQAO performance as a measure of success is critically discussed.
🔍 Scrutiny of this non-traditional schooling approach is considerable.

Timeline

00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The debate features Annie Kidder, Joseph Lessa, Rebecca Coulter, and Doretta Wilson discussing the concept of a 'poor school' aimed at helping underprivileged students in the Niagara region. Rebecca expresses ambivalence, emphasizing the need for anti-poverty strategies rather than separate schooling. Joseph highlights the hyperbolic reaction to the school and the flawed notion that life is not segregated. The discussion also touches on common schooling benefits being disproportionately experienced by those already benefiting from the system.
00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Annie argues against the school, expressing concern about the segregation it might cause and the need for supportive measures for lower-income students to be integrated into all schools rather than isolated. Doretta sees potential in the model, noting it offers a practical attempt to aid students from less affluent backgrounds, using a structured approach akin to a successful model from California. Concerns are raised about stigma and limited access for students in need.
00:10:00 - 00:15:00
The conversation delves into the larger question of whether poverty affects educational success, with Joseph noting its substantial impact. Discussion moves to the politics of drawing attention to inequality and whether isolating students in such schools is beneficial or if it perpetuates other systemic issues. Annie emphasizes supporting public education within communities and addressing issues more holistically than just through one isolated solution.
00:15:00 - 00:20:00
The debate transitions into discussing the proliferation of specialized and alternative schools within the public system. There is a mix of opinions on whether schools catering to specific identities and interests benefit the education system. Joe points out that focusing on high-income benefiting schools is crucial, emphasizing that power dynamics and privilege shape educational stratification.
00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Discussion shifts to how multiculturalism and different educational approaches challenge the notion of a one-size-fits-all system. Rebecca supports the idea of bringing diverse groups together to foster understanding, cautioning against too much fragmentation. Annie and the panelists engage in a discussion about the role of public schools in addressing societal differences.
00:25:00 - 00:32:43
The conversation closes with reflections on education's public versus private good, contemplating the role of multicultural programs and specialized identities within public schooling. The potential dismantling of specialized programs, like the Catholic Board, is debated in light of these individual schools. The session ends with a call for more inclusive, flexible educational solutions that address diverse learning needs across the board.

Mind Map

Video Q&A

What is the main topic of the discussion?
The main topic is the creation of a specialized school in Niagara for low-income students and its implications.
Who are the participants in the debate?
Participants include Annie Kidder, Joseph Flessa, Rebecca Coulter, and Doretta Wilson.
What is the purpose of the new school being discussed?
The school aims to support students from low-income families and help them pursue post-secondary education.
How do the debaters feel about the new school?
Opinions are mixed; some see it as a positive step, while others express concerns about segregation and stigmatization.
What is one major concern about the school?
A major concern is that the school may potentially segregate students based on socioeconomic status.
Are specialty schools a topic of concern in this discussion?
Yes, the panel discusses the proliferation of specialty schools and their implications for public education.
Has there been similar educational initiatives elsewhere?
Yes, the school is compared to charter schools in California that focus more time on task.
What are the prospects of such a model of schooling according to the debaters?
It's debated; some see potential if modeled correctly, while others are skeptical.
What alternative does Annie Kidder suggest instead of specialized schools?
Annie suggests providing extra support within existing public schools instead of creating specialized schools.
What is a suggested benefit of the specialized program structure?
Supporters argue it allows for focused instruction and could reduce the dropout rate for low-income students.

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Subtitles

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00:00:05
and joining us now on the debate
00:00:06
annie kidder executive director with
00:00:08
people for education
00:00:10
joseph lessa professor at oise the
00:00:12
ontario institute for studies in
00:00:14
education
00:00:15
rebecca coulter professor in the faculty
00:00:16
of education at the university of
00:00:18
western ontario
00:00:19
and doretta wilson executive director at
00:00:21
the society for quality education
00:00:24
and a reminder we call this your agenda
00:00:26
because you are part of tonight's your
00:00:27
agenda broadcast
00:00:29
our fifth column blogger mike miner is
00:00:30
hosting a live chat on our inside agenda
00:00:32
blog
00:00:33
that's at tvo.org the agenda and on our
00:00:36
facebook page at facebook.com slash the
00:00:38
agenda
00:00:39
and as we always do you can send us a
00:00:41
tweet
00:00:43
your agenda jump in we'll put your
00:00:44
comments up on the screen throughout the
00:00:46
course of the broadcast
00:00:48
okay nice to have everybody here welcome
00:00:50
and i guess i should start by saying
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joe first time on television ever
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tonight that's right
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congratulations thank you
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anything should look and feel fabulous
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uh i will tell you
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you are on with three pros tonight so
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get your elbows up kid
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okay here we go i know lots of our
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viewers i suspect have heard about what
00:01:12
they are calling quote unquote and this
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is very unfortunate but this is what the
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nickname has become
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the poor school but here are some of the
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more details so michael let's put these
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up if we can
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this is in niagara region as we said the
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district school board niagara dsbn
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academy
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is what the school will be called and it
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will begin offering grade six and seven
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classes
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this coming september in welland the
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school's goal is to get its students
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into post-secondary programs
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all students must apply and they can be
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bussed to the school from around niagara
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region
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how about this parents cannot have a
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post-secondary degree
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and originally they were required to
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prove that they lived below the poverty
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line they took that back now that's not
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the case anymore
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the school will offer an extended day a
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breakfast program
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and free tutoring and parents must
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volunteer at the school okay
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in alphabetical order let's go around
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the table here and find out what we
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think
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rebecca is this a good idea
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i i'm ambivalent about this um which is
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unusual for me
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yes it is because i know you um on the
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whole i don't think it's a good idea
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um i understand why the school board is
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doing it when you're working in a time
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of scarce resources and you're
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you know grasping for different uh
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solutions to problems and you've got the
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pressures of the eqao tests hanging over
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you and
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all of those kinds of things going on i
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think on the whole however
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it's better to deal with what the
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underlying
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reasons are and that is to have an
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anti-poverty strategy
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rather than a schooling strategy and i
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think it also
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assumes that just because you get
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through this school
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and get into a post-secondary
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institution you will then have a job
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and as we know young people these days
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are having trouble finding jobs even
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when they have
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master's degrees never mind you know any
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anything else and so there
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it's a very complicated issue okay and i
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think on the whole
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we should you know stick with public
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education for all and
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and keep children in their neighborhood
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schools we're going to try and unpack
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some of those themes throughout the
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course of our time here joseph what do
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you say on this
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well what's been most interesting to me
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to watch as a sort of observer of the
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politics around
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this school is the degree of hyperbole
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that people have brought to the debate i
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think
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um emblematic of that is the star the
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toronto star's editorial on this
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used language like they're going to ship
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the kids off to this particular school
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and they said that you know life isn't
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segregated so why should schools be
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the claim that life isn't segregated is
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manifestly untrue
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and the star itself published the
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holchansky report for example which
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showed increasing economic
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segregation within the city of toronto
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so those claims are
00:03:49
themselves sort of not very accurate and
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so
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the degree of opposition has been
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fascinating to watch
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because it's based on a relatively
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nostalgic notion of
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common schooling i'm not against common
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schooling
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but i think that the proponents who
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claim that
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the benefits of common schooling are
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typically the people who have benefited
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from the system and this school is
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designed
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to address some of the needs from people
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who aren't benefiting from the current
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system
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annie kidder is this a good idea no
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there no ambivalence um but my
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but what i really worry about what has
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been amazing to me i agree about the
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hyperbole part is that suddenly there's
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a lot of hyperbole about
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this school but there isn't about all
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the other schools
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and so i think all the other sort of
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specialty schools and the move to more
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and more and more specialty schools or i
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want a special school like this and i
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can go and you know create that one
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and i think for the most part those
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specialty schools have been made by
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uh people like me people who you know
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for whom the system was you know
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it was relatively sort of easy to get
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through the system and based on class in
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a way
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so to me this is like this is a part of
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a continuum and that we
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need to look at it this way i think
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because obviously we do know that
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uh kids from with
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lower income families are more likely to
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struggle at school for a whole raft of
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reasons
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i think we also know what things make a
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difference in terms of how we can
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support them
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and i do believe we should be doing
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those in all schools as opposed to
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hiving it off into one school but i do
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worry about
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a kind of segregation that starts to go
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on or separating all the kids
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or kids either based on their their
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interest their class their families
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their
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income uh whatever because i think that
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we're missing
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uh something that the public education
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system notwithstanding the reality of
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how segregated we are in our communities
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now but that it has tried to do
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and that it's important that it does but
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i think just looking at the low-income
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school
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that everybody's been quite happy to
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oppose uh
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i think we need to look at all the other
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ones too and that's when it gets really
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scary for a lot of people
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we'll do that in just a second doretti
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your first kick at this what do you
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think good idea bad idea
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maybe maybe maybe it's a good idea maybe
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it's a bad one it i think i agree
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with joe i think there's been a lot of
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hysteria around this
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unfortunately the announcement of the
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school wasn't very well communicated i
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think
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maybe the board should look at getting
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some better pr people but
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we know that kids from less affluent
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backgrounds have more difficulty in
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school they have higher dropout rate and
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i think the school boards are trying to
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address these problems that affect their
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systems
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and i think this is an attempt at the
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school board to address
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a problem that it identifies so worth
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trying it's worth trying and i think
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this school is modeled on
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a california chartered school that
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spends more time on task a longer school
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day
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more focused instruction in a way that
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our regular school system is not set up
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to do
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so it might it might be worthy to make
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sure that kids are all together in a
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place where they won't be stigmatized
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inside of a regular school so why not
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have them in a school
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that they choose to go to and that's
00:07:03
another big factor no one is shipping
00:07:05
anybody off to a place they don't want
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to go to this is a school of choice it's
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voluntary so parents would have to apply
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and we just saw a tweet or an email come
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up on the screen says we all care so
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much about our children which is why
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education is such a passionate topic for
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so many people should
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you know parents are i gather in the
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niagara peninsula are considering this
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right now rebecca you you get to
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consider it and you get to apply for it
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should part of the consideration that
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parents bring to bear here be
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will my children be stigmatized if they
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go to this school
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is that part of the consideration well i
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think children are stigmatized
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regardless of what school they go to
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i don't think that that's quite the
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question i think the question is you
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know they're starting the school with
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150 children
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and at its maximum it's going to be
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about i think the their pr
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person said about 525 or something like
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that there are 5400 children
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identified in the niagara region living
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below the poverty line
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so it's a very small proportion of the
00:08:02
children who are going to
00:08:03
get any benefit assuming there is some
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benefit and i guess i would say
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i would say to doretta that you know
00:08:09
looking to california is an example of
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a good schooling situation is probably
00:08:13
not the best and that at the
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the kind of targeted you know small
00:08:18
targeted well because they're citing
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proofs the proof
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school in california this was a charter
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school it was
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school follows the same principle same
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principles as in toronto the pathways to
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education very successful program
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that's used in region park the model
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here though is san diego california yes
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that is the model
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and i think i mean i think that that's a
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that's the kind of specific targeting on
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a small population of children
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um that's maybe not the best way to go
00:08:44
and and that's why i'm a supporter of
00:08:46
public education i think that the
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examples that we see for example in
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finland
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which is a country which has universal
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programs and tries to
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to equalize the population is a much
00:08:57
better way to go and they have much
00:08:58
better results on the test
00:09:00
they have uh much more interesting kind
00:09:02
of creative schooling there the teachers
00:09:04
have much not like ours at all
00:09:06
right not nearly the not nearly as
00:09:08
multicultural population as we have
00:09:10
no but i'm just saying that universal
00:09:11
programming is this is something that
00:09:13
works right
00:09:14
they have an aboriginal population but
00:09:17
that speaks to the bigger question then
00:09:19
if there are
00:09:19
if a school board has an area where
00:09:21
there's a lot of of kids who have low
00:09:24
achievement
00:09:24
high dropout rate then trying to do
00:09:27
things the same way we've been doing
00:09:28
things for the past 50 years in schools
00:09:30
isn't working so maybe we need to expand
00:09:33
what they are doing at this school to a
00:09:36
broader
00:09:36
broader spectrum of the school system so
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let me ask a basic question here how
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much does a family's
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income influence the successful or not
00:09:45
career of education that children have
00:09:47
okay so the way that this question is
00:09:48
going to get heard is
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is you know is poverty destiny that's
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how people are going to hear that
00:09:53
question
00:09:54
and obviously not there are going to be
00:09:56
lots of examples of people who have come
00:09:58
up from very difficult circumstances and
00:10:00
have been successful
00:10:01
however the larger research patterns
00:10:03
would show that
00:10:04
undeniably background conditions like
00:10:07
socioeconomic status
00:10:08
have an enormous impact on school
00:10:10
success so
00:10:12
has the district school board of niagara
00:10:15
identified a real problem by pointing
00:10:16
out the the
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negative uh relationship between uh
00:10:22
the way that the school is addressing
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the particular needs of kids affected by
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poverty sure they have they've drawn
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attention to a particular issue
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and my sense is that that's what's
00:10:30
causing some of this controversy is
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that drawing attention to inequality and
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difference makes people very
00:10:35
uncomfortable
00:10:36
particularly when those people don't
00:10:38
have very much power annie you want to
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follow
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yeah because i think that i mean i it's
00:10:42
funny because i think we all agree
00:10:44
about some pieces of this and i think
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not only do we know
00:10:48
about the the impact of socioeconomic
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status on just
00:10:51
on on your chances for being at risk but
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i think there are lots of
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programs wherever they are the states in
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canada wherever that have shown
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what does make a difference too so if
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you look at something
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like pathways and i have a problem with
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pathways just because it's outside of
00:11:07
public education it relies on private
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money and on
00:11:09
philanthropy but if you look at the
00:11:11
experience there where there is
00:11:12
intensive intensive support for kids um
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it's expensive but it works it's a great
00:11:18
investment but they they're there
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there's one-on-one
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counseling there's work with the
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families there's you know they're with
00:11:26
those kids every minute of the way all
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through school then they're successful
00:11:30
right so i apologize if i can interrupt
00:11:32
it acknowledges that the high school is
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broken
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absolutely it leaves the high school
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untouched
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but they work with teachers they work
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with it's their primary focus is working
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with youth to support them to move
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through a broken institution so in well
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i mean i think it does both things i
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don't think it does actually acknowledge
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that the high school is
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broken necessarily but what it does say
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is that
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kids don't live or families don't live
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kind of in isolation from everything
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else
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you're in an ecosystem and every single
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thing affects you and it says we have to
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work on all of this
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and so to to to decide i think to just
00:12:04
go and go we're going to go do this in
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one school as opposed to looking at all
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of the evidence and i think there's a
00:12:09
lot of evidence
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about what works in terms of supporting
00:12:12
kids through school
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and i agree with you there's lots of
00:12:15
things that we could be looking at about
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what's going on inside those schools
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um but i think this way where we
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actually continually
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sort of hive off or separate off instead
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of going
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we actually know it does cost money it
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doesn't cost a lot of
00:12:28
people support let's do that let me try
00:12:30
this rebecca let me try this with you
00:12:32
those of us of a certain age remember
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back in boston
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you know 30 years ago 40 years ago was
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it already bussing right the
00:12:39
the idea was to take poorer mostly black
00:12:42
kids out of poor neighborhoods and bust
00:12:44
bust them to better off i guess white
00:12:47
middle-class neighborhoods and the
00:12:48
converse as well actually
00:12:50
and it was controversial as hell but a
00:12:52
lot of people thought
00:12:53
you know if okay maybe poverty isn't
00:12:55
destiny but
00:12:57
there's certainly a correlation there is
00:12:59
anybody talking about that as an option
00:13:00
for ontario right now
00:13:02
for poor kids bust them somewhere else
00:13:04
bust them to a better off neighborhood
00:13:05
anybody that's doing that i know in some
00:13:07
states they are
00:13:08
busting kids based on income not by race
00:13:11
anymore by
00:13:12
income i think north carolina tried it
00:13:13
in some school districts
00:13:15
and the only objection to it was
00:13:17
typically parents said well i don't
00:13:19
really want my children on a bus
00:13:21
going far away i mean it's a natural uh
00:13:23
reaction but that idea would that be
00:13:24
preferable to this
00:13:25
well then if you ask yourself in toronto
00:13:28
that's like taking kids from rosedale
00:13:29
and busting them to rexdale and kids
00:13:31
from malvern and taking them to the
00:13:32
king's way i mean is that
00:13:34
what that's what it may mean if you want
00:13:36
to equalize people by income but is that
00:13:38
really what you want to do or
00:13:40
do you want to make sure that schools
00:13:42
are doing the right things that they
00:13:43
should be doing from the very beginning
00:13:45
for all children right and i you know
00:13:48
some kids need
00:13:49
need something extra so not all kids
00:13:51
need the same things all the time
00:13:53
but maybe maybe the other question here
00:13:55
the different
00:13:56
question is is about difference is is
00:13:59
how do you have
00:14:00
a system that's a system that's filled
00:14:02
with a
00:14:03
billion different kinds of kids uh in
00:14:05
many many ways so
00:14:07
they're they you know want different
00:14:09
things they learn differently they think
00:14:11
differently they have different
00:14:12
interests they come from different kinds
00:14:14
of families
00:14:14
and we got a problem right because
00:14:16
there's for the most part one system
00:14:18
and there's for the most part one school
00:14:20
down the street which i
00:14:21
i still wish that would be the school
00:14:24
that most
00:14:25
mostly we would go to and really the
00:14:27
thing that the system struggles with is
00:14:29
that
00:14:30
and and i think right now the reaction
00:14:33
to that difference
00:14:34
is to divide it up more and more and if
00:14:35
we look at the united states schools are
00:14:37
becoming
00:14:38
more and more and more segregated rather
00:14:39
than the other way let me follow up on
00:14:41
this because you talked about actually
00:14:42
these specialty schools a little bit
00:14:44
earlier and we got a list of them here
00:14:45
our producer mark rosen's put this list
00:14:47
together
00:14:48
and michael smith our director if you
00:14:49
would let's bring this up so we can show
00:14:50
everybody we're calling this graphic a
00:14:52
school for everyone
00:14:53
if you go in the toronto district school
00:14:55
board and you know obviously you meet
00:14:57
certain criteria you might find yourself
00:14:59
at an afrocentric school
00:15:00
or an aboriginal school or a lesbian gay
00:15:03
bisexual transgendered school
00:15:06
the hamilton wentworth district school
00:15:07
board offer also offers
00:15:09
single gender classes the greater essex
00:15:12
county district school board
00:15:14
offers how about this bilingual arab
00:15:16
arabic
00:15:17
english language classes direto we
00:15:20
creating too many of these kind of
00:15:21
specialty schools no i wish we'd create
00:15:24
some that
00:15:24
fit better instructional practice and
00:15:27
traditional model for some parents that
00:15:28
are looking for those that they have to
00:15:29
go out to public
00:15:31
private education to find those that
00:15:32
would be nice to have some of those as
00:15:34
well
00:15:34
if you don't object to this uh no i
00:15:36
think people should have a choice
00:15:38
and there should be lots of alternatives
00:15:40
the edmonton model of providing
00:15:42
many many more alternative schools seems
00:15:44
to be very very successful
00:15:46
parents are satisfied achievement is
00:15:48
improving
00:15:50
they've focused on the academic side of
00:15:53
things yet providing
00:15:54
people with lots of alternatives parents
00:15:55
are given a passport in edmonton for
00:15:57
example they don't have to go to their
00:15:58
local neighborhood school
00:16:00
and the the the 1950s i guess leave it
00:16:04
to beaver idea that everybody's just
00:16:05
going to walk two blocks to their
00:16:07
neighborhood school
00:16:08
is a very uh large city way of thinking
00:16:11
nowadays because what what happens in a
00:16:13
rural
00:16:13
rural community where kids by by nature
00:16:16
get on a bus and have to go to the one
00:16:18
school joe what do you think about it
00:16:20
for one second just about the list that
00:16:21
really on that list should be
00:16:23
the alternative school though you know
00:16:26
there's there's a
00:16:27
there are way more schools
00:16:31
the ib schools where you have to pay 20
00:16:32
or 1200
00:16:36
baccalaureate schools we have rosedale
00:16:37
school for the arts french immersion
00:16:39
french french immersion
00:16:40
i mean there's there is a range what's
00:16:42
interesting about this debate about
00:16:43
these
00:16:43
you you're so you've selected in the
00:16:45
tdsb the identity based programs
00:16:48
which make because two of them at least
00:16:50
are race-based make people very
00:16:52
uncomfortable um i think that's a sort
00:16:54
of agreed upon canadian norm
00:16:55
conversations about race are very
00:16:57
uncomfortable right
00:16:58
so uh you've drawn attention to the most
00:17:00
controversial programs but again
00:17:02
the lens is pointed down the the sort of
00:17:04
hierarchy of power
00:17:06
and not up so we are not paying
00:17:07
attention as annie just said to
00:17:09
the sort of stratification of the
00:17:11
program of public education
00:17:13
which benefits high income people so
00:17:15
things like ib
00:17:17
french immersion arts based schooling
00:17:19
which are identifiably demographically
00:17:22
benefiting certain groups so if we're
00:17:24
going to talk
00:17:25
better off groups yeah so if we're going
00:17:26
to talk about you know the
00:17:28
the balkanization of schooling in
00:17:30
toronto talk about the whole thing
00:17:32
i would rather us look at up the scale
00:17:34
of power to the people who have the most
00:17:36
influence in these conversations not
00:17:37
down at the people who have the least
00:17:39
okay i really agree with that and i
00:17:41
think it's really kind of
00:17:42
a cheat to go we're just going to look
00:17:43
at this and not actually own up
00:17:46
to where the real thing is happening and
00:17:48
it's really for my kids
00:17:49
fair point so rebecca this this kind of
00:17:52
i've heard the word tonight
00:17:53
balkanization of the public school
00:17:55
system
00:17:55
you're not a fan i assume i i
00:17:59
their strengths and weaknesses to that
00:18:01
approach there are some very good things
00:18:02
about it
00:18:03
but i agree with joe that it's a very
00:18:05
much a school for the privileged in
00:18:07
essence
00:18:08
the choices because you have to be able
00:18:10
to take your children there you have to
00:18:11
be able to provide certain kinds of
00:18:12
things
00:18:13
i think the same thing could be said
00:18:14
about the well in school i looked at the
00:18:16
application form for the parents who
00:18:17
want to send children to that school
00:18:19
and it's so coached in middle class
00:18:21
language um it
00:18:22
was it was very very interesting and the
00:18:24
parents have to commit to volunteering
00:18:26
for a certain number of hours
00:18:28
what do you mean coach the middle class
00:18:29
language well it's you know that the
00:18:31
students already have to be performing
00:18:33
at their grade level right so
00:18:36
it's taking it's it's creaming off a
00:18:38
certain number of children from the from
00:18:40
the top of the
00:18:41
you know the top of the pool as it were
00:18:44
and then it's requiring parents to be
00:18:45
volunteers which
00:18:46
pays no attention at all to what it's
00:18:48
actually like to live in poverty
00:18:50
and so if a mother has small children at
00:18:53
home but no access to affordable daycare
00:18:56
and yet has to go into the school to
00:18:57
volunteer that's not taken into account
00:18:59
they're busting kids in from all over
00:19:01
the region um
00:19:03
parents who don't have access it's not
00:19:05
very good public transportation in the
00:19:06
niagara region i don't think
00:19:08
and and parents who don't have a car and
00:19:10
can't afford the gas they can't
00:19:11
volunteer in that school it
00:19:12
already limits even who among the poor
00:19:16
could go to the poor school and so that
00:19:18
you know there are all those kinds of
00:19:20
problems with it and that's why
00:19:21
you know a public system that's that's
00:19:23
more integrative
00:19:24
is is a is a better approach would you
00:19:26
acknowledge that those are some
00:19:28
shortcomings there are going to be
00:19:29
challenges for sure i
00:19:30
i agree with you that they they the
00:19:32
school will have to
00:19:34
be flexible and have to evolve as it
00:19:37
goes along
00:19:38
and i think that's what they'll end up
00:19:39
doing it's not going to be for poor kids
00:19:41
anymore i think
00:19:41
it is just parents who don't have a
00:19:44
post-secondary education
00:19:46
but yeah they'll have they'll have to
00:19:48
evolve these models have to adapt to
00:19:50
their local
00:19:51
to local needs but i think giving kids
00:19:54
finding
00:19:55
i give them credit for at least trying
00:19:57
to find a way to give
00:19:58
kids who need some kind of advantage to
00:20:01
give them a leg up because
00:20:02
the solution of poverty is
00:20:07
you said right off the top no you don't
00:20:08
think this is a good idea
00:20:10
but surely you wouldn't you would grant
00:20:12
that the
00:20:13
public education system which isn't
00:20:15
really one single system it's four
00:20:17
systems and we'll talk about that in a
00:20:18
second
00:20:19
it can't do it conventionally for
00:20:22
everyone right there are going to be
00:20:23
people who just
00:20:24
yeah for whom it's not going to work no
00:20:27
yes and no i agree so then what we have
00:20:29
to have is kind of space
00:20:31
breathing room within our schools to
00:20:32
actually be able to be flexible within
00:20:34
the school so that instead of going
00:20:36
there's one way of doing things these
00:20:38
are our targets this is what education
00:20:39
is about a kind of narrow definition of
00:20:41
education
00:20:42
that you actually go within our schools
00:20:44
we're movable flexible we're going to
00:20:45
work together we're going to ensure if
00:20:47
we have a kid who's struggling
00:20:48
because either they need there's help
00:20:50
needed at home or there's social work
00:20:52
help or psycho
00:20:53
psychological help whatever it is more
00:20:55
food
00:20:56
one-on-one tutoring we're going to do
00:20:58
that because
00:20:59
that's really the job of public
00:21:00
education but it means that you have to
00:21:02
provide those resources there and you
00:21:04
have to connect school
00:21:05
to the rest of its world you can't go
00:21:08
i'll be interested to hear about the
00:21:09
poverty reduction strategy because you
00:21:10
can't just go
00:21:11
school's going to do it you have to
00:21:13
actually look at everything around that
00:21:15
and i think that's what we know more
00:21:16
than ever
00:21:16
anything but yes i think you can do it
00:21:19
within schools
00:21:20
not in the sort of olden days model not
00:21:23
in
00:21:25
you know leave it to beaver but in more
00:21:28
recognizing the incredible diversity and
00:21:30
going
00:21:30
but you are going to have to let go the
00:21:32
kind of it
00:21:34
it can't be quite so fixed and the
00:21:36
structure can't be quite so fast
00:21:37
let me pick up with joe on that because
00:21:39
there as i said
00:21:41
there is this assumption out there that
00:21:42
we have one
00:21:44
public school system that educates 95
00:21:46
and a half percent of our kids
00:21:48
which is not quite right because you
00:21:50
know since the beginning of the country
00:21:51
it's been
00:21:52
french and english uh public and
00:21:55
separate right
00:21:56
so we've always had these kind of
00:21:57
distinctions within the public school
00:21:59
system
00:21:59
going back a long way is this just kind
00:22:01
of the latest incarnation or chapter or
00:22:04
evolution
00:22:05
in all of that well what i think is
00:22:06
interesting i'm an immigrant to canada
00:22:08
and to see that kind of
00:22:09
from the united states so there from i
00:22:11
moved here from california
00:22:12
i grew up in ohio so to observe these
00:22:15
kinds of uh
00:22:17
these kinds of dilemmas would strike me
00:22:18
as particularly canadian how do we be
00:22:20
different and the same you know to see
00:22:23
the degree of controversy that is
00:22:24
generated by one small program
00:22:26
is fascinating in a country that lives
00:22:28
with these tensions all the time right
00:22:30
so i would agree with annie to as to a
00:22:32
certain extent that i believe
00:22:34
in a system that can acknowledge some
00:22:37
uh some sort of diversity and change and
00:22:40
and and different needs within a system
00:22:43
but i don't think
00:22:44
that uh uh i don't think that having one
00:22:47
the school site be
00:22:49
let me say it this way just having
00:22:51
people who are different under the same
00:22:53
roof does not create an integrated
00:22:55
school
00:22:55
sure right people will be stratified
00:22:57
within that school according to
00:22:59
observable patterns and one of the
00:23:00
patterns that will be most observable
00:23:02
are people who come from families where
00:23:04
their parents did not go to
00:23:06
post-secondary education are quite
00:23:08
unlikely to be in the stream that leads
00:23:09
to post-secondary okay put this up go
00:23:11
ahead michael you got an email here you
00:23:13
want me to pay attention to
00:23:14
let's see if we can get this up here
00:23:16
here it comes
00:23:17
cultural schools should be left to the
00:23:20
private sector that's not too
00:23:22
provocative is it
00:23:24
what do you think about that idea
00:23:24
rebecca well i'm opposed to the private
00:23:28
sector
00:23:28
getting involved in public education so
00:23:30
that's what i think about that
00:23:31
wouldn't be public education of the
00:23:33
private sector no it would be private
00:23:34
education but you know i mean somebody
00:23:36
has to protect the children too and we
00:23:37
all have a
00:23:39
social responsibility towards children
00:23:41
not just parents but all of us as
00:23:42
citizens have a responsibility towards
00:23:44
children
00:23:45
and so you know i would like to see
00:23:48
the public school system changes in ways
00:23:51
that we've been talking about
00:23:53
to be more flexible to be more
00:23:54
accommodating to allow people to move in
00:23:57
and out
00:23:57
but i do think that there need to be
00:23:58
some standards as well and he's got
00:24:00
nothing
00:24:01
well no no i think it's interesting what
00:24:02
you're saying because maybe education
00:24:04
part of it has to do with also the way
00:24:07
we've changed uh because and that's
00:24:09
maybe part of this incredible explosion
00:24:11
of many many schools for every different
00:24:13
kind of child of a middle or upper
00:24:15
upper middle class person but in a way
00:24:17
education's become this
00:24:18
individual uh right and this thing about
00:24:20
you know what can i get as an individual
00:24:22
for
00:24:22
for my kids out of school and it's kind
00:24:24
of lost a little bit that kind of civil
00:24:26
society piece
00:24:28
and i and it's very hard to say to
00:24:29
parents could you just sacrifice your
00:24:31
kid for the benefit of the
00:24:32
the greater good but on the other hand
00:24:34
public education was looked at
00:24:36
as a kind of public good and it's much
00:24:38
more now looked at
00:24:40
as a private good a private right a
00:24:41
private thing that you know if you look
00:24:43
at all that fundraising stuff that just
00:24:45
came out
00:24:46
that that's the biggest most you know
00:24:48
it's incredibly significant in terms of
00:24:50
how we think of public education let me
00:24:52
get you one
00:24:53
public school i'm inferring from this
00:24:55
email that
00:24:57
this person believes the public
00:24:58
education system should be one size fits
00:25:00
all
00:25:01
if you want an ib school a school for
00:25:02
the arts an afrocentric school
00:25:04
a lesbian gay bisexual transgender
00:25:06
school do it in the private system
00:25:08
what do you think look we have a
00:25:11
national policy of multiculturalism but
00:25:14
supposed to celebrate
00:25:15
all of our differences that we come
00:25:16
together yet we we want this
00:25:18
one-size-fits-all school system to try
00:25:20
and make us all into
00:25:22
to something that happens well that's
00:25:24
that's a good thing to
00:25:25
to to want to do and and that's one of
00:25:28
the things you hope to accomplish with
00:25:29
public with all education not just
00:25:31
public because frankly
00:25:32
privately schooled children have just as
00:25:35
much of
00:25:35
a good education as the as the public
00:25:39
schools do
00:25:40
so you know in one sense we want to uh
00:25:43
celebrate all of our differences but we
00:25:45
want us to all be the same so
00:25:47
you can't do both i mean there's going
00:25:49
to be that uh tension there all the time
00:25:51
that conflict and
00:25:52
people are you know human beings by
00:25:55
nature
00:25:56
they they feel more comfortable with
00:25:58
what they're familiar with
00:25:59
and they're going to i think but i mean
00:26:01
i think that that's where the problem
00:26:02
you know that's we need to have a lot of
00:26:06
children together with one another
00:26:08
to learn about differences i mean it
00:26:10
benefits
00:26:11
the white middle-class anglo-saxon child
00:26:14
to be in the same classroom with the
00:26:16
muslim child or you know other
00:26:18
other children from other cultures and
00:26:19
other places and and and i think that
00:26:21
that's a very important part of public
00:26:23
education is is to learn about other
00:26:26
cultures
00:26:27
to think critically about your world to
00:26:29
begin to expose i mean to ask these
00:26:31
questions to talk about these questions
00:26:33
about difference and so on
00:26:35
that's one of the important things i
00:26:36
think that public education ought to do
00:26:38
i'm not saying that it always does
00:26:40
but you know if we take a critical
00:26:42
approach and we we see education
00:26:44
as having particular kinds of purposes
00:26:46
that is to unpack
00:26:47
some of the truths about our society and
00:26:49
to be honest and not try to create a
00:26:51
bunch of little conformists
00:26:53
that we would be far better off doing
00:26:55
that than than segregating into
00:26:57
thousands of schools michael let's put
00:26:59
this graph up here this is the eqao
00:27:00
which is everybody's favorite acronym
00:27:02
oh boy uh equal what is it
00:27:07
thanks annie okay i'm going to take a
00:27:10
minute here to take us through this you
00:27:11
see
00:27:12
red bars and blue bars the red bar is
00:27:14
the ontario average
00:27:16
and you can see for reading and writing
00:27:18
and math it is such
00:27:20
the blue bar is this afric-centric
00:27:23
school that was opened
00:27:24
what is it a year or so ago in toronto
00:27:27
and they did the grade 3 eqao standards
00:27:30
test as well
00:27:32
and when you took these african canadian
00:27:34
kids and took them out of the general
00:27:36
system
00:27:36
so to speak and you put them in this
00:27:39
afric-centric curriculum
00:27:41
where the suspicion was the hope was
00:27:43
that they would do better
00:27:45
it looks like the test scores are
00:27:46
showing they've done better but steve
00:27:48
okay i'm sorry this is not good research
00:27:51
hey
00:27:52
are we comparing the same kids with with
00:27:54
what how they were doing before no
00:27:56
because they're only in grade three run
00:27:57
once and these are kids and this is
00:27:59
where i'll agree with doretta
00:28:00
whose parents chose parents are already
00:28:03
in that way
00:28:04
uh you know involved in their kids they
00:28:06
chose to send motivated they're
00:28:08
you know there's a bad thing no no no no
00:28:11
no this is where i agree about choice
00:28:12
so we're not measuring those kids
00:28:15
against themselves
00:28:16
and saying prove that that's a success
00:28:17
no not at all because it doesn't say
00:28:19
these kids were doing badly before and
00:28:20
now they're doing better
00:28:21
they may have been doing well before and
00:28:22
now they're doing well yeah now they're
00:28:23
doing better potentially but also
00:28:25
what this also sort of diagnoses that
00:28:27
the fact that we have this graphic up on
00:28:28
the screen is the degree of surveillance
00:28:30
that school has been put under this is a
00:28:32
small
00:28:32
program and it attracts national and
00:28:35
international attention
00:28:36
based on 16 kids 16 groups the amount of
00:28:39
scrutiny
00:28:40
placed on that school is quite
00:28:41
astonishing so you know as a person who
00:28:44
i like to think of myself as someone who
00:28:45
would support the school it's really
00:28:47
striking that we're
00:28:48
sort of having this conversation about
00:28:49
them i don't think it's necessarily bad
00:28:51
but if the numbers were half the
00:28:52
provincial average everybody would be
00:28:53
saying
00:28:53
this is a disaster we've got to shut
00:28:55
this thing down right away it's such a
00:28:56
ridiculous way of measuring whether or
00:28:58
not a school is working or not working
00:28:59
sorry but it really because i'm sure
00:29:01
with the low-income school and well and
00:29:03
they will the kids will do
00:29:04
because they're screened they're going
00:29:06
to do very well i don't think there's
00:29:08
any question about that
00:29:09
and especially in schools where parents
00:29:12
choose and if they
00:29:13
think better than if they were in their
00:29:15
regular school then all
00:29:16
all the better because i i that's what
00:29:19
we're going to do we hope children are
00:29:20
successful
00:29:21
but is the point is the jury is still
00:29:22
out on this school on this after
00:29:23
centuries
00:29:24
i i don't think that no i don't think it
00:29:27
is i don't think that is the point
00:29:28
because i think the point is i think we
00:29:30
know
00:29:30
that when parents are that involved and
00:29:32
that they go and choose to send their
00:29:34
kid to a different school and they're
00:29:36
with their child during their education
00:29:38
they're those kids do better
00:29:40
at school and they're going to do better
00:29:41
not necessarily compared to themselves
00:29:43
the year before
00:29:44
they do better than others and here's
00:29:45
the next question joe we on this program
00:29:48
in fact we have done
00:29:49
you know i think a considerable number
00:29:50
of programs on
00:29:53
portuguese canadian kids who
00:29:54
underachieved badly latino
00:29:56
canadian kids who underachieved badly
00:29:58
should the school boards across this
00:30:00
province be thinking about
00:30:02
this is not the right word but i was
00:30:04
going to say hiving off but that's not
00:30:05
the right word
00:30:06
creating a separate school for those
00:30:08
kids right so i'll answer the question
00:30:10
this way by saying that you know the
00:30:11
schools that we're talking about
00:30:12
are still working with the ontario
00:30:14
curriculum right the effort centric
00:30:15
school has an afrocentric curriculum and
00:30:17
perspective and shared values and all of
00:30:18
that
00:30:19
they're also working with the ontario
00:30:20
curriculum they're part of the public
00:30:22
system
00:30:22
i actually object to the idea that these
00:30:24
sort of culturally specific
00:30:26
programs should be part of the private
00:30:27
system because then there's no scrutiny
00:30:29
of what they're up to
00:30:30
right whereas if they are part of a
00:30:32
public system you've got sort of diverse
00:30:34
voices and you've got diverse
00:30:36
perspectives potentially from people who
00:30:38
weren't participating fully before
00:30:40
in the sort of institution of public
00:30:42
schooling now they see themselves in it
00:30:44
how is that a bad thing how is that you
00:30:46
know actually working against
00:30:48
the social cohesion it sounds like it
00:30:50
might create
00:30:51
a sense of increased investment but
00:30:53
should there be a portuguese school then
00:30:55
and
00:30:56
should there be different i mean there
00:30:57
are many i'm not aware of a specific
00:30:59
proposal for a portuguese school but i'm
00:31:01
ignorant of this issue the afrocenter
00:31:02
schooling proposal is a different one it
00:31:04
has a history that's
00:31:05
more than 20 years long um so you know
00:31:08
those two options weren't on the table
00:31:10
at the same time
00:31:11
the one that was on the table it was the
00:31:13
afrocentric schools so the red button or
00:31:15
green button should i go for the
00:31:16
afrocentric school
00:31:17
yes green button we're in the realm of
00:31:18
speculation here because i guess the
00:31:20
question is kind of are we on a slippery
00:31:21
slope here where
00:31:22
it's an afrocentric school today it's an
00:31:24
lgbt school tomorrow
00:31:25
maybe portuguese latinos just for rich
00:31:28
kids why don't we just
00:31:38
can i rephrase your question
00:31:39
sarcastically or or actually say well in
00:31:41
our last minute so go ahead okay
00:31:42
um what i hear you actually calling for
00:31:44
given that you're
00:31:45
not calling for anything or asking
00:31:47
questions that's the suspicion of around
00:31:49
these alternative programs is it's
00:31:50
calling for the dismantling of the
00:31:51
catholic board
00:31:52
if you object to the idea that
00:31:53
culturally specific programming
00:31:55
is a bad idea then there's one clear
00:31:58
objective
00:31:59
in ontario which is it would be to
00:32:01
dismantle the catholic board that is not
00:32:02
my position
00:32:03
but if you're going to be suspicious of
00:32:05
all of these alternative programs
00:32:06
that seems to be a logical concept and
00:32:08
we need to reconvene this group
00:32:10
for that program don't forget first
00:32:12
nations education
00:32:13
right that's that's very important
00:32:18
annie kidder people for education
00:32:19
rebecca coulter university of western
00:32:21
ontario
00:32:22
on the other side of the table doretta
00:32:24
wilson society for quality education
00:32:26
joe flesa making his tv debut from boise
00:32:29
wow and very well done very well done
00:32:31
thanks so much everybody that was great
00:32:33
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donate at tvo.org
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