John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Summary
TLDRIn dem Video diskutieren die renommierten Professoren Jeffrey Sachs und John Mearsheimer die aktuelle globale Sicherheitslage und die Rolle der USA in dieser. Sie behandeln Themen wie den Aufstieg Chinas und dessen geopolitische Implikationen, die Bedrohung durch Russland, insbesondere im Kontext der Ukraine, und Probleme im Nahen Osten. Sachs hinterfragt die US-Politik, indem er sie als allzu machtorientiert bezeichnet und vor nuklearer Eskalation warnt. Mearsheimer hingegen argumentiert aus einem realistischen Ansatz heraus, dass Machtpolitik unvermeidlich ist und die USA ihre dominierende Position verteidigen müssen. Beide äußern Bedenken bezüglich der inneren Dynamik und Konfliktrisiken der aktuellen US-Foreign Policy.
Takeaways
- 🌍 Diskussion über globale Sicherheitsfragen und Machtpolitik.
- 🇺🇸 Auseinandersetzung mit der Rolle der USA in der internationalen Politik.
- 💣 Jeffrey Sachs warnt vor nuklearer Eskalation aufgrund machtgetriebener Außenpolitik.
- 🗺️ John Mearsheimer betont die Notwendigkeit, Chinas Aufstieg zu kontrollieren.
- 🇨🇳 Debatte über Chinas ökonomischen und militärischen Einfluss als Bedrohung.
- 🤝 Unterschiedliche Ansichten der Sprecher über die Ansätze in der Außenpolitik.
- 🕊️ Forderung nach Deeskalation und Vermeidung von Konflikten, vor allem nuklearer Art.
- 📈 Diskussion über die wirtschaftlichen Auswirkungen globaler Machtverschiebungen.
- 🇮🇱 Diskussion über den Nahostkonflikt und die Rolle der USA.
- 🧐 Kritische Betrachtung der imperialistischen Tendenzen in der US-Politik.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
Eine Diskussion über politische Macht und den tiefen Staat, wobei darauf hingewiesen wird, dass sowohl Republikaner als auch Demokraten ähnliche außenpolitische Ziele verfolgen. Sachs argumentiert, dass Machtspiele oft auf wirtschaftlicher Einflussnahme und militärischer Stärke beruhen, während Mearsheimer darauf hinweist, dass Trump versuchte, sich von diesem Muster abzusetzen, aber letztendlich scheiterte.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Erläuterung des tiefen Staates als administratives Netzwerk innerhalb der US-Regierung, das eine kohärente außenpolitische Strategie verfolgt. Mearsheimer erklärt, dass diese Bürokraten oft langfristige außenpolitische Ziele verfolgen, die sowohl Republikaner als auch Demokraten teilen. Sachs ergänzt, dass es sich bei der Außenpolitik der USA eher um Machterhaltung als um die Förderung von Demokratie handelt.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Diskussion über die Doktrin der Machterhaltung als primäres Ziel der US-Außenpolitik. Mearsheimer argumentiert, dass die Neigung zur Demokratisierung in anderen Ländern durch militärische Intervention schädlich ist. Sachs hingegen glaubt, dass das Hauptziel der USA weniger mit der Förderung von Demokratie zu tun hat, sondern mit der Anpassung der globalen Machtverhältnisse zu ihren Gunsten.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Mearsheimer stellt die Idee infrage, Diktaturen aktiv zu schwächen, und diskutiert die Grenzen und Herausforderungen einer auf Freiheit basierenden Außenpolitik. Sachs argumentiert, dass die USA oft aus machtpolitischen Gründen agieren und es ihnen nicht um den Aufbau von Demokratien geht. Beide stimmen jedoch darin überein, dass externe Eingriffe oft misslungen sind.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Die Diskussion richtet sich auf China und Russland. Mearsheimer sieht Russland nicht als Bedrohung und glaubt, dass die USA strategische Fehler gemacht haben, indem sie Moskau in eine Allianz mit Peking gedrängt haben. Er sieht China als Hauptbedrohung, die es einzudämmen gilt, während Sachs Chinas Aufstieg als wirtschaftliche Chance ansieht und betont, dass sich die USA nicht als Weltpolizei aufspielen sollten.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Erörterung der Einschätzung der Bedrohung durch China. Mearsheimer vertritt die Meinung, dass China, da es mächtiger wird, bestrebt ist, in Asien hegemonial zu werden, und dass es im Interesse der USA ist, dies zu verhindern. Er betont, dass die USA es sich nicht leisten können, einen weiteren regionalen Hegemon zuzulassen.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Die Diskussion wechselt zu einer möglichen Eskalation mit China und der internationalen Strategie der USA. Mearsheimer erklärt seine Sichtweise, dass China bestrebt ist, seinen militärischen Einfluss im asiatischen Raum auszuweiten, was die USA dazu zwingt, gegenzusteuern, um ihre Vormachtstellung zu sichern. Sachs hingegen warnt vor der Gefahr einer nuklearen Eskalation und plädiert für Deeskalation.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Die Möglichkeit einer Eindämmung Chinas ohne den Einsatz militärischer Mittel wird erörtert, wobei mehrere potenzielle Konfliktpunkte in Ostasien wie das Südchinesische Meer hervorgehoben werden. Mearsheimer und Sachs betonen beide die Notwendigkeit, einen ausgewachsenen Krieg zu vermeiden, wobei Sachs argumentiert, dass wirtschaftliche Verflechtungen und Deeskalation politisch priorisiert werden sollten.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
Die Rolle Indiens im geopolitischen Spiel wird erläutert, wobei Mearsheimer darauf hinweist, dass Indien seine Politik aufgrund seiner regionalen Interessen selbstständig gestalten wird. Es wird auch die Bedeutung Indiens als zukünftiger wirtschaftlicher und technischer Machtfaktor betrachtet.
- 00:45:00 - 00:54:05
Zum Schluss diskutieren Sachs und Mearsheimer die potenziellen globalen Risiken, die durch derzeitige geopolitische Spannungen entstehen könnten. Sie stimmen darin überein, dass die Gefahr eines nuklearen Konflikts durch kluge strategische Entscheidungen und zurückhaltende Machtpolitik abgewendet werden sollte. Zusammenfassend wird die pessimistischen Ausblicke Mearsheimers gegen die pragmatischen Hoffnung Sachs gestellt, die auf Vermeidungsstrategien setzt.
Mind Map
Frequently Asked Question
Wer sind die Hauptredner in dem Video?
Professor John Mearsheimer von der University of Chicago und Professor Jeffrey Sachs von der Columbia University.
Was ist das Hauptthema der Diskussion?
Die Diskussion konzentriert sich auf Machtpolitik, globale Sicherheitsherausforderungen und die Rolle der USA in der Welt, insbesondere im Kontext von China, Russland und dem Nahen Osten.
Welche Sicht hat John Mearsheimer auf Chinas Aufstieg?
John Mearsheimer sieht den Aufstieg Chinas als Bedrohung und glaubt, dass die USA China daran hindern sollten, regionale Vormachtstellung zu erlangen.
Wie steht Jeffrey Sachs zu der US-amerikanischen Außenpolitik?
Jeffrey Sachs kritisiert die US-amerikanische Außenpolitik als machtgesteuert und warnt vor den Gefahren eines Eskalationspfades, insbesondere mit nuklear bewaffneten Staaten.
Welche Ansicht vertritt Jeffrey Sachs bezüglich nuklearer Kriegsgefahr?
Jeffrey Sachs warnt stark vor der Gefahr eines nuklearen Kriegs aufgrund eskalierender Machtpolitik und ruft zur Vorsicht und Deeskalation auf.
Wie beschreibt das Video die Beziehung zwischen den USA und Russland?
Die Beziehung wird als angespannt beschrieben, mit Fokus auf den Konflikt in der Ukraine und der Rolle der USA in diesem Kontext, die Russia als Bedrohung wahrnimmt.
Was ist die Meinung der Redner zu den Konflikten im Nahen Osten?
Die Redner diskutieren die Komplexität der Konflikte im Nahen Osten, einschließlich der Rolle Israels und der Risiken weiterer Eskalationen, besonders im Kontext des Iran.
Gibt es eine Einigung zwischen den Sprechern über die Rolle der USA in internationalen Konflikten?
Beide Sprecher stimmen darin überein, dass die USA oft zu sehr in internationale Angelegenheiten verwickelt sind, obwohl sie unterschiedliche Ansichten über den Umgang mit China haben.
View more video summaries
- 00:00:00one of the most influential and
- 00:00:02controversial thinkers in the
- 00:00:04world he is known as one of the world's
- 00:00:06leading experts on economic
- 00:00:09development one of the most famous
- 00:00:12political
- 00:00:14scientists in
- 00:00:18history we're talking about moral and
- 00:00:21political principles here I would
- 00:00:23suggest that all four Wars could be
- 00:00:25ended quickly great power politics is
- 00:00:28now back on the table if we are anything
- 00:00:31as a world Community we have to
- 00:00:32implement what we've
- 00:00:35[Music]
- 00:00:36[Applause]
- 00:00:44said I'm excited for this panel we're
- 00:00:46going to talk about foreign policy uh we
- 00:00:48have I think two of the most interesting
- 00:00:51imminent renowned thinkers about foreign
- 00:00:53policy uh professor John mimer from
- 00:00:56University of Chicago and Professor
- 00:00:57Jeffrey Sachs from Columbia so great to
- 00:01:00have you guys here
- 00:01:03today it's uh it's a it's a big world
- 00:01:07and there's a lot of things happening so
- 00:01:09let's just jump into it um the big news
- 00:01:11over the past week was that Dick Cheney
- 00:01:13endorsed kamla Harris for president I
- 00:01:16think for people who see the world in
- 00:01:18partisan political terms this might have
- 00:01:20been surprising but I don't think that
- 00:01:22you guys were that surprised by that do
- 00:01:25you see an underlying logic to this um
- 00:01:27Jeff why don't I start with you
- 00:01:30I think it's obvious there's basically
- 00:01:32one deep State party uh and that is the
- 00:01:36party of Cheney uh Harris Biden uh
- 00:01:40Victoria newand my colleague at Columbia
- 00:01:42University now uh and uh newand is kind
- 00:01:46of the face of all of this because she
- 00:01:48has been in every Administration for the
- 00:01:50last 30 years she was in the Clinton
- 00:01:53Administration wrecking our policies
- 00:01:56towards Russia in the 1990s she was uh
- 00:01:59in the Bush Administration Jor uh with
- 00:02:03Cheney uh wrecking our policies towards
- 00:02:06NATO enlargement uh she was in uh then
- 00:02:10the Obama Administration as Hillary's uh
- 00:02:14spokesperson first and then making a
- 00:02:17coup in Ukraine in February 2014 not a
- 00:02:20great move started a war then she was uh
- 00:02:24Biden's uh uh under Secretary of State
- 00:02:28now that's both parties uh it's a a
- 00:02:32colossal mess and um she's been Cheney's
- 00:02:36uh adviser she's been Biden's advisor
- 00:02:39she she uh and uh makes perfect sense
- 00:02:44this is the reality uh we're trying to
- 00:02:46find out if there's another party that's
- 00:02:48the big question and John what's what's
- 00:02:50your thought on that do you see any
- 00:02:51difference between uh Republicans and
- 00:02:53Democrats no I like to refer to the
- 00:02:55Republicans and the Democrats as Tweedle
- 00:02:57D and Tweedle du
- 00:03:05there's hardly any difference I actually
- 00:03:07think the one exception is that uh
- 00:03:09former president Trump when he became
- 00:03:12president in 2017 was bent on beating
- 00:03:15back to deep State and becoming a
- 00:03:18different kind of leader on the foreign
- 00:03:20policy front but he basically failed and
- 00:03:23he is vowed that if he gets elected this
- 00:03:26time uh it will be different and he will
- 00:03:28beat back the Deep State he will pursue
- 00:03:31a foreign policy that's fundamentally
- 00:03:33different uh than Republicans and
- 00:03:35Democrats have pursued up to now and the
- 00:03:38big question on the table is whether or
- 00:03:40not you think Trump can beat the Deep
- 00:03:42State and these two established parties
- 00:03:44uh and i' bet against Trump John um and
- 00:03:48Jeff but let's start with John can you
- 00:03:50actually Define for us for me I don't
- 00:03:53understand when people say deep State
- 00:03:54what it is I almost viewed the term
- 00:03:56comically we have one of our friends in
- 00:03:58our group chat who we called Deep state
- 00:03:59who is he's deep State he's really in
- 00:04:03the Deep state but we say it as a joke
- 00:04:06but for maybe the uninitiated what does
- 00:04:08it actually mean what are their
- 00:04:10incentives who are
- 00:04:12they Jeff maybe you want to start or
- 00:04:14John you want to start yeah I'll say a
- 00:04:16few words about it when we talk about
- 00:04:17the Deep State we're talking really
- 00:04:19about the administrative State it's very
- 00:04:22important to understand that starting in
- 00:04:24the late 19th early 20th century uh
- 00:04:27given developments uh in the American
- 00:04:30economy it was imperative that we
- 00:04:33develop and this was true of all Western
- 00:04:35countries a very powerful Central State
- 00:04:38that could run the country and over time
- 00:04:42that state has grown in power and since
- 00:04:45World War II the United States as you
- 00:04:47all know has been involved in every nook
- 00:04:49and cranny of the world fighting Wars
- 00:04:51Here There and Everywhere and to do that
- 00:04:54you need a very powerful administrative
- 00:04:57State uh that can help manage foreign
- 00:05:00policy but in the process what happens
- 00:05:02is you get all of these highlevel
- 00:05:04bureaucrats middle level and lowlevel
- 00:05:06bureaucrats who become established in
- 00:05:09positions in the Pentagon the state
- 00:05:11department the intelligence Community
- 00:05:13you name it and they end up having a
- 00:05:16vested interest in pursuing a particular
- 00:05:19foreign policy and the particular
- 00:05:22foreign policy that they like to pursue
- 00:05:24is the one that the Democrats and the
- 00:05:26Republicans are pushing and that's why
- 00:05:29we talk about Tweedle D and Tweedle Dum
- 00:05:31with regard to the two parties you could
- 00:05:33throw in uh the Deep State as being on
- 00:05:36the same page as those other two uh
- 00:05:39institutions yeah there there's a very
- 00:05:42interesting interview of Putin uh in
- 00:05:44figuro in
- 00:05:462017 and he says uh I've dealt with
- 00:05:49three presidents now they come into
- 00:05:52office with some ideas even but then uh
- 00:05:55the men in the dark suits and the blue
- 00:05:58ties and then he said I I wear red ties
- 00:06:01but they wear blue ties they come in and
- 00:06:03explain the way the world really is and
- 00:06:06there go the ideas and I think that's
- 00:06:09Putin's experience that's our experience
- 00:06:11that's my experience which is that
- 00:06:13there's a deeply entrained foreign
- 00:06:15policy it has been in place in my
- 00:06:18interpretation for many decades but
- 00:06:20arguably a variant of it has been in
- 00:06:23place since
- 00:06:241992 I got to watch some of it early on
- 00:06:27because I was an adviser to gorb and I
- 00:06:30was an adviser to yelson and so I saw
- 00:06:33early makings of this though I didn't
- 00:06:35fully understand it except in retrospect
- 00:06:38but that policy has been mostly in place
- 00:06:42pretty consistently for 30 years and it
- 00:06:44didn't really matter whether it was Bush
- 00:06:45senior whether it was Clinton whether it
- 00:06:48was Bush Jr whether it was Obama whether
- 00:06:50it was Trump after all who did Trump
- 00:06:53hire he hired John Bolton well the uh
- 00:06:56pretty deep State uh that was the end of
- 00:07:00they told you know he explained this is
- 00:07:01the way it is and by the way Bolton
- 00:07:03explained also in his Memoirs when when
- 00:07:06Trump didn't agree we figured out ways
- 00:07:07to trick him basically so well and what
- 00:07:10what are their incentives is it war is
- 00:07:12it self-enrichment is it power is it all
- 00:07:14three is it some or is it yeah is it is
- 00:07:16it just is there a philosophical
- 00:07:19entrenchment or is it just this inertial
- 00:07:22issue that like once a policy begins
- 00:07:24it's hard to change and the system's
- 00:07:27just working with 10,000 people working
- 00:07:29towards it
- 00:07:30you know if I were lucky to sit next to
- 00:07:33the world's greatest political
- 00:07:35philosopher which I am um he'd give you
- 00:07:39a good answer which is that the right
- 00:07:41answer which is if you want to interpret
- 00:07:43American foreign policy it is to
- 00:07:45maximize power uh and uh he gives a John
- 00:07:49gives a an explanation of that we have
- 00:07:52uh some differences but I think it's a
- 00:07:55very good description of American uh
- 00:07:58foreign policy which is is that it's
- 00:08:00trying to maximize Global power
- 00:08:03essentially to be Global hegemon I I
- 00:08:07think it could get us all killed this is
- 00:08:09because it's a little bit delusional in
- 00:08:11my mind but uh not not the I not not his
- 00:08:15interpretation of their idea but the
- 00:08:17fact that they hold that idea is a
- 00:08:18little weird to me but in any event
- 00:08:21that's the idea and every time a
- 00:08:24decision comes inside that I've seen I'm
- 00:08:27an economist so I don't see security
- 00:08:30decisions the same way but every
- 00:08:32decision that I've seen always leans in
- 00:08:34the same direction for the last 30 years
- 00:08:38which is power as the central objective
- 00:08:42so Clinton faced an internal
- 00:08:45cabinate really debate should NATO be
- 00:08:49enlarged is this this is a post Cold War
- 00:08:52phenomenon that it's well I'll I'll let
- 00:08:54John take that just two very quick
- 00:08:57points first of all I do believe that
- 00:08:59the people people who uh are in favor of
- 00:09:01this foreign policy uh do believe in it
- 00:09:06it's not cynical they really believe
- 00:09:08that we're doing the right thing I've
- 00:09:10met them yeah no yeah the second point I
- 00:09:12would make to you and this sort of adds
- 00:09:14on to what Jeff said Jeff said power has
- 00:09:16a lot to do with this and is a good
- 00:09:18realist I of course believe that but
- 00:09:20it's also very important to understand
- 00:09:22that the United States is a
- 00:09:23fundamentally liberal country and we
- 00:09:25believe that we have a right we have a
- 00:09:28responsibility and we have the power to
- 00:09:30run around the world and remake the
- 00:09:33world in America's image most people in
- 00:09:36the foreign policy establishment the
- 00:09:38Republican Party the Democratic party
- 00:09:40they believe that and that is what has
- 00:09:42motivated our foreign policy in large
- 00:09:45part since the Cold War ended because
- 00:09:48remember when the cold war ends we have
- 00:09:50no rival great power left so what are we
- 00:09:53going to do with all this power that we
- 00:09:55have what we decide to do is go out and
- 00:09:58remake the world in our own image so
- 00:10:01that's a that's a values point of view
- 00:10:03though right that there are values that
- 00:10:05they hold dear that that many do hold
- 00:10:07dear that
- 00:10:09liberalism democracy does ultimately I
- 00:10:12believe I've heard this reduce conflict
- 00:10:14worldwide that there's an importance
- 00:10:15that we've never seen two democratic
- 00:10:18nations since World War II go to war and
- 00:10:22that there's a reason why we want to see
- 00:10:24liberalism kind of breed throughout the
- 00:10:28world and it's our responsib ability for
- 00:10:30world for Global Peace to make that a
- 00:10:31mandate let me step in for one moment
- 00:10:34okay sure very quickly and by the way
- 00:10:36I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm uh what do you call
- 00:10:39it where you pull the spirits of the the
- 00:10:40voice of others but I'm I'm just trying
- 00:10:42to channeling channeling that's the word
- 00:10:44I want to be very clear I am forever
- 00:10:46thankful that I was born in a liberal
- 00:10:48democracy and I love liberalism but the
- 00:10:51question here is do you think that we
- 00:10:53can run around the world imposing
- 00:10:57liberal democracy on other countries and
- 00:10:59some cases shoving it down their throat
- 00:11:01doing it at the end of a rifle barrel
- 00:11:04and my argument is that's almost
- 00:11:06impossible to do it almost always
- 00:11:08backfires think Iraq Afghanistan so
- 00:11:11forth and so on and secondly you begin
- 00:11:14to erode liberalism in the United States
- 00:11:17because you build a deep state right and
- 00:11:19you want to understand that a lot of the
- 00:11:21complaints here about cracking down on
- 00:11:24freedom of speech and so forth and so on
- 00:11:26are related to the fact that we have
- 00:11:28this ambitious foreign policy those two
- 00:11:31things go together in very important
- 00:11:32ways what an let me let me disagree just
- 00:11:36a bit uh because we agree actually on
- 00:11:39the behavior and I've learned I'd say
- 00:11:42most of that from you that it's power
- 00:11:45seeking truly John in my work 40 years
- 00:11:50uh overseas I don't think the US
- 00:11:52government gives a damn about these
- 00:11:54other places I I don't think they really
- 00:11:56care if it's a liberal democracy if it's
- 00:11:58a dictatorship they want the right of
- 00:12:00ways they want the military bases they
- 00:12:03want uh the state to be in support of
- 00:12:06the United States they want NATO
- 00:12:08enlargement I don't I know You' you've
- 00:12:10written and there are some who believe
- 00:12:13in stateb
- 00:12:15building God if they do they are so
- 00:12:17incompetent it's
- 00:12:20unbelievable
- 00:12:23but Professor s know I I'll give you an
- 00:12:25example if I put just one one
- 00:12:27example I'm I'm a friend with one of the
- 00:12:31only
- 00:12:32PhD Afghani Economist senior person in
- 00:12:36the US um Academia over the last 30
- 00:12:41years you would think that the state
- 00:12:43department if they were interested in
- 00:12:45State Building would ask him one day one
- 00:12:49moment something about Afghanistan never
- 00:12:52happened never happened not even one
- 00:12:54question never happened he asked me can
- 00:12:57you get me a a meeting with the
- 00:12:59department they were completely
- 00:13:01uninterested this is this is about power
- 00:13:05you're too idealistic
- 00:13:08John they don't care about the other
- 00:13:11places they may feel we should be
- 00:13:14whatever we want free and so forth but
- 00:13:17Freedom I've been I've seen my with my
- 00:13:20own eyes the coups the overthrows the
- 00:13:23presidents democratic presidents LED
- 00:13:25away they don't care at all this is
- 00:13:28Washington
- 00:13:29be a realist come on Professor mimer
- 00:13:34I when we talk about power um there are
- 00:13:37other people in the world who are trying
- 00:13:39to accumulate power we live in a
- 00:13:41multi-polar world right now and they
- 00:13:43have in some cases very nefarious or bad
- 00:13:46intent um and they do not have democracy
- 00:13:49so it's one thing to you know tell uh
- 00:13:51people in Afghanistan you need to evolve
- 00:13:54you know to be a perfect democracy like
- 00:13:56the one we have here I think we all
- 00:13:58agree that's unrealistic and insane um
- 00:14:01and not practical but what about the
- 00:14:04free countries of the world uniting
- 00:14:06together to stop dictators from invading
- 00:14:08other free countries is that Noble is
- 00:14:10that a good use of power and a good
- 00:14:12framework for America to evolve too no I
- 00:14:16don't think so uh I think that what the
- 00:14:19United States should do is worry about
- 00:14:21its own National interest uh in some
- 00:14:24cases that's going to involve aligning
- 00:14:26ourselves with a dictator uh if we're
- 00:14:29fighting World War II all over again
- 00:14:31it's December 8th
- 00:14:331941 you surely would be in favor of
- 00:14:36allying with adol not with Adolf Hitler
- 00:14:38with Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union
- 00:14:41against uh Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany
- 00:14:44sometimes you have to make those kind of
- 00:14:46compromises uh as I said before I love
- 00:14:48liberal democracy I have no problem
- 00:14:50align with liberal democracy but when
- 00:14:52you begin to think in the terms that
- 00:14:54you're thinking you end up uh with an
- 00:14:57Impulse to do social engineering around
- 00:15:00the world and that gets you in all sorts
- 00:15:01of problems well what I'm proposing is
- 00:15:04when dictatorships invade other
- 00:15:07countries then we take action it depends
- 00:15:09maybe def defend them so it depends yeah
- 00:15:11of course I mean when Russia invades
- 00:15:15Ukraine basically what you're saying is
- 00:15:17you want to go to war on behalf of
- 00:15:20Ukraine against Russia are you in favor
- 00:15:23of that no I would say diplomacy would
- 00:15:25obviously be what we'd want to exhaust
- 00:15:27but if they do roll into other fre
- 00:15:29countries I think there's an argument
- 00:15:30for the free countries of the world to
- 00:15:31get together and say two dictators we're
- 00:15:33not going to allow
- 00:15:36this could I come in
- 00:15:39here could I clarify a few
- 00:15:45things look uh first of all
- 00:15:49um almost all the time that we intervene
- 00:15:53it's because uh we view this as a power
- 00:15:57situation for the us so whether it's
- 00:16:00Ukraine or Syria or Libya or other
- 00:16:04places even if we Define it as defending
- 00:16:09something believe me it's not about
- 00:16:11defending something it's about a
- 00:16:13perception of us power and US interest
- 00:16:16and it's in objectives of us Global
- 00:16:21hegemony and if we analyze the Ukraine
- 00:16:24conflict uh just even a little bit below
- 00:16:27the surface this is not a a conflict
- 00:16:29about Putin invading Ukraine this is
- 00:16:32something a lot different that has to do
- 00:16:34with American power projection into the
- 00:16:37former Soviet Union so it's completely
- 00:16:39different second if we decide were the
- 00:16:45police which we
- 00:16:47do you can't imagine how cynical
- 00:16:52we use to justify our actions
- 00:16:56we used the cynical B that
- 00:16:59we're defending the people of Benghazi
- 00:17:02to bomb the hell out of Libya to kill
- 00:17:05moamar Gaddafi why did we do that well
- 00:17:08I'm kind of an expert on that region and
- 00:17:11I can tell you maybe because sarosi
- 00:17:13didn't like Gaddafi there's no much
- 00:17:16deeper reason except Hillary liked every
- 00:17:19bombing she could get her hands on and
- 00:17:21Obama was kind of convinced my secretary
- 00:17:24of state says go with it so why don't we
- 00:17:26go with the NATO Expedition it had
- 00:17:28nothing to do with Libya it un it
- 00:17:30Unleashed 15 years of chaos cheated the
- 00:17:34UN Security Council because like
- 00:17:36everything else we've done it was on
- 00:17:38false pretenses we did the same with
- 00:17:40trying to overthrow Syria we did the
- 00:17:43same with conspiring to overthrow Victor
- 00:17:46yanukovich in Ukraine in February 2014
- 00:17:50so the problem with this argument is
- 00:17:53we're not nice guys we're not trying to
- 00:17:55save the world we're not trying to make
- 00:17:57democracies
- 00:17:59we had a committee by the way of all the
- 00:18:02luminaries you could mention but they're
- 00:18:04The neocon Crazies but they're
- 00:18:06luminaries the committee for the people
- 00:18:08of
- 00:18:09Cheta are you kidding do you think they
- 00:18:13even knew where chn is or cared about
- 00:18:16Chia but it was an opportunity to get at
- 00:18:19Russia to weaken Russia to support a
- 00:18:21jihadist movement inside Russia to do
- 00:18:24this is a game but it's the game that
- 00:18:26John has described better than any one
- 00:18:29in the world it's a game of power it's
- 00:18:32not that we're defending real things if
- 00:18:33you want to defend real things go to the
- 00:18:36UN Security Council and convince others
- 00:18:39because the other countries are not
- 00:18:40crazy and they don't want Mayhem in the
- 00:18:43world but we play game so they say
- 00:18:46that's a game Iraq which was obviously a
- 00:18:49game before we went in it was a
- 00:18:51obviously Co and Powell could not move
- 00:18:53his lips without lying that day
- 00:18:56obviously and so they said no but if
- 00:18:59we're real about our interests then you
- 00:19:01go to the UN Security Council and then
- 00:19:03it's not just on us it's actually then a
- 00:19:06collective security issue uh Professor M
- 00:19:08if we were to take Jeffrey's position
- 00:19:11here um that we are exerting power for
- 00:19:13the sake of you know our reputation and
- 00:19:16in fact to weaken dictatorships if I'm
- 00:19:18if I'm summarizing correctly here um is
- 00:19:21that not a good strategy to weaken
- 00:19:23dictators around the world who might
- 00:19:25like to invade other countries is there
- 00:19:27is there a frame Fring in which you
- 00:19:29could see that being um for you know a
- 00:19:33world where democracy and people living
- 00:19:36freely has gone down in our lifetimes is
- 00:19:39that not knowable is there not a
- 00:19:41justification somebody could make for
- 00:19:42I'm not saying I have that but I'm just
- 00:19:43trying to steal me on the other side of
- 00:19:45this is weakening dictators and despots
- 00:19:48a good strategy it depends uh well let's
- 00:19:51talk about the the two that we have you
- 00:19:53know uh Xi Jinping I think you wanted to
- 00:19:56get to eventually and then Ukraine and
- 00:19:58Putin are these people worth trying to
- 00:20:02you know uh contain or even weaken well
- 00:20:04in in terms of China I'm fully in favor
- 00:20:07of containing China okay so containment
- 00:20:10check it's containment I'm not
- 00:20:12interested in regime change I'm not
- 00:20:14interested in trying to turn China into
- 00:20:17a democracy not going to happen yeah not
- 00:20:19going to happen we tried it actually and
- 00:20:21I thought it was foolish to even pursue
- 00:20:23a policy of Engagement toward China with
- 00:20:26regard to Russia I don't think Russia is
- 00:20:28a serious threat to the United States
- 00:20:30and indeed I think the United States
- 00:20:32should have good relations with Putin
- 00:20:35it's a remarkably foolish policy to push
- 00:20:38him into the arms of the Chinese there
- 00:20:40are three great powers in the system the
- 00:20:43United States China and Russia China is
- 00:20:45a peer competitor to the United States
- 00:20:48it's the most serious threat to the
- 00:20:49United States Russia is the weakest of
- 00:20:52those three great powers and it's not a
- 00:20:54serious threat to us if you are playing
- 00:20:56balance and power politics and you're
- 00:20:58interested as the United States in
- 00:21:00containing China you want Russia on your
- 00:21:03side of the Ledger but what we have done
- 00:21:06in effect is we have pushed Russia into
- 00:21:09the arms of the Chinese this is a
- 00:21:11remarkably foolish policy and
- 00:21:13furthermore by getting bogged down in
- 00:21:15Ukraine and now bogged down in the
- 00:21:17Middle East it's become very difficult
- 00:21:20for us to Pivot to Asia to deal with
- 00:21:23China which is the principal threat that
- 00:21:25we face
- 00:21:27[Applause]
- 00:21:31can I
- 00:21:33think David could I just say uh 2/3
- 00:21:37right
- 00:21:38perfect so you gave him a b or B plus a
- 00:21:42minus I always give him an A minus
- 00:21:44inflation I just wanted to add a
- 00:21:46footnote which is that China's also not
- 00:21:48a
- 00:21:49threat it's just not a threat I mean
- 00:21:52we're going to get to it ch ch China
- 00:21:54China's a market it's uh got great food
- 00:21:57great culture uh wonderful people a
- 00:22:00civilization 10 times older than ours
- 00:22:02it's not a threat well as an economist
- 00:22:04can you talk about the impact of a cold
- 00:22:08or hot conflict with China from an
- 00:22:10economic perspective given the trade
- 00:22:11relationship yeah it would wreck
- 00:22:13California for one thing it would
- 00:22:15destroy the economy that you guys are
- 00:22:17making completely this economy has been
- 00:22:19the biggest beneficiary of China's rise
- 00:22:22probably in the whole world so it's
- 00:22:24crazy maybe if you're worried if you're
- 00:22:27really worried about about whether uh a
- 00:22:30worker in Ohio has a particular job on a
- 00:22:32particular assembly line then uh you can
- 00:22:35be anti-china if you're worried about
- 00:22:37the tech industry about California about
- 00:22:40peace and the future you should be
- 00:22:42pro-china that's all so why is it become
- 00:22:44so Universal to assume that we are
- 00:22:47already in a state of conflict with
- 00:22:49China on not just party lines but like
- 00:22:53almost any Spectrum you could kind of
- 00:22:55like
- 00:22:56consider said it exact right and he
- 00:22:59predicted it better than anyone in the
- 00:23:02whole world in 2001 he said when China
- 00:23:06becomes large we're going to have
- 00:23:08conflict because that's John's Theory
- 00:23:11and it's right as a description of
- 00:23:13American foreign policy that we are for
- 00:23:15power they are big therefore they're an
- 00:23:17enemy they're an enemy of our aspiration
- 00:23:20to Global City tra City let let's let
- 00:23:24John jump in here do you want you want
- 00:23:25me to is it okay if I talk about this
- 00:23:27yeah yeah I mean I think um I think that
- 00:23:30um what's interesting I mean you and
- 00:23:33Jeff I think arrive at similar
- 00:23:35conclusions about Ukraine uh but
- 00:23:38different ones on China right because
- 00:23:40Jeff is an economist and I think sees
- 00:23:41the world in fundamentally positive some
- 00:23:44ways based on the potential for trade
- 00:23:47economics basically whereas you see the
- 00:23:49world as more of a zero sum game based
- 00:23:52on the balance of power why don't you
- 00:23:53just explain that difference I okay uh
- 00:23:56it is very important to emphasize David
- 00:23:58was saying that Jeff and I agree on all
- 00:24:01sorts of issues including Ukraine and
- 00:24:03Israel Palestine but we disagree
- 00:24:05fundamentally as he just made clear on
- 00:24:07China and let me explain to you why I
- 00:24:09think that's the case and then Jeff can
- 00:24:11tell you why he thinks I'm wrong
- 00:24:15uh it has to do with security whether
- 00:24:17you privilege security or survival or
- 00:24:20whether you privilege prosperity and
- 00:24:23economists and I would imagine most of
- 00:24:24you in the audience really care greatly
- 00:24:26about maximizing prosperity for someone
- 00:24:28like me who's a realist what I care
- 00:24:30about is maximizing the state's
- 00:24:32prospects of survival and when you live
- 00:24:35in an Antarctic system and in IR speak
- 00:24:38that means there's no higher authority
- 00:24:40there's no night Watchmen that can come
- 00:24:42down and rescue you if you get into
- 00:24:43trouble and this is the International
- 00:24:45System there's no higher authority in
- 00:24:47that anarchic world the best way to
- 00:24:50survive is to be really powerful as we
- 00:24:53used to say when I was a kid on New York
- 00:24:55City playgrounds you want to be the
- 00:24:56biggest and baddest dude on the Block
- 00:24:58and that's simply because it's the best
- 00:25:00way to survive if you're really powerful
- 00:25:03nobody fools around with you the United
- 00:25:06States is a regional hedgemon it's the
- 00:25:08only Regional hedgemon on the planet we
- 00:25:11dominate the Western Hemisphere and what
- 00:25:14China has begun to do as it's got
- 00:25:18increasingly powerful economically is
- 00:25:21translate that economic might into
- 00:25:23military might and it is trying to
- 00:25:27dominate Asia it wants to push us out
- 00:25:29beyond the first island chain it wants
- 00:25:31to push us out beyond the second island
- 00:25:33chain it wants to be like we are in the
- 00:25:35Western Hemisphere and I don't blame the
- 00:25:38Chinese one bit if I was the National
- 00:25:40Security advisor in Beijing that's what
- 00:25:43I'd be telling XI ping we should be
- 00:25:45trying to do but of course from an
- 00:25:47American point of view this is
- 00:25:49unacceptable and we do not tolerate peer
- 00:25:53competitors we do not want another
- 00:25:57Regional hedgemon on the planet in the
- 00:25:5920th century there were four countries
- 00:26:01that threatened to become Regional
- 00:26:04hegemons like us Imperial Germany
- 00:26:07Imperial Japan Nazi Germany and the
- 00:26:10Soviet Union the United States played a
- 00:26:12key role in putting all four of those
- 00:26:15countries on the scrap peap of History
- 00:26:17we want to remain the only Regional
- 00:26:19hedgemon in the world we are a ruthless
- 00:26:23great power never want to lose sight of
- 00:26:25that fact and the end result of this is
- 00:26:28you get an intense security competition
- 00:26:31between China
- 00:26:33and the United States and it revolves
- 00:26:36around the concept of security not
- 00:26:39Prosperity what you just very quickly so
- 00:26:42what you see beginning to happen is that
- 00:26:45it's in all domains where the
- 00:26:47competition takes place especially
- 00:26:50high-tech we do not want them defeating
- 00:26:53this defeating Us in the Hightech War we
- 00:26:56are competing with them econom ically we
- 00:26:59are competing with them militarily and
- 00:27:01this is because the best way to survive
- 00:27:04is for us the United States of America
- 00:27:06to be the only Regional hedgemon on the
- 00:27:11planet so Jeff let me let me set it up
- 00:27:14for for Jeff here so Jeff I you and John
- 00:27:18I think agree that the the game on on
- 00:27:21the board is power seeking I think what
- 00:27:23John is saying is there are smart ways
- 00:27:26and dumb ways to pursue power
- 00:27:28that containing China is a smart way
- 00:27:30what we're doing in Ukraine is a dumb
- 00:27:33way whereas it seems like you're saying
- 00:27:35that all power seeking behavior is bad
- 00:27:37that's not the game we should be playing
- 00:27:39we should somehow opt out of that is
- 00:27:41that is that kind of where you're going
- 00:27:43it's a it's not a bad way to say it but
- 00:27:45I would I would put it in in another way
- 00:27:48I read a very good book uh John's
- 00:27:53um and and
- 00:27:55John described
- 00:27:58I'm going to quote him but he can quote
- 00:28:00himself afterwards he he he said that
- 00:28:04the regional
- 00:28:05hegemons uh don't threaten each other
- 00:28:08actually why because we have big ocean
- 00:28:11in
- 00:28:12between
- 00:28:13I deeply believe that China is not a
- 00:28:17threat to the United States and I deeply
- 00:28:21believe the only threat to the United
- 00:28:24States period in the world given the
- 00:28:27oceans given our size and given the
- 00:28:30military is nuclear
- 00:28:33war I deeply believe we're close to
- 00:28:36nuclear war because we have a mindset
- 00:28:42that leads us in that direction we have
- 00:28:45a mindset that everything is a challenge
- 00:28:47for survival and that escalation is
- 00:28:50therefore always the right approach my
- 00:28:53view is a little bit of prudence could
- 00:28:56save the whole planet
- 00:28:58so why I don't like Ukraine is that I
- 00:29:02don't see any reason in the world that
- 00:29:05NATO has to be on Russia's border with
- 00:29:08Ukraine I was as I said gorbachov's
- 00:29:11adviser and yelton's adviser and they
- 00:29:14wanted peace and they wanted cooperation
- 00:29:17but whatever they wanted they did not
- 00:29:19want the US military on their border so
- 00:29:23if we continued to push as we did we
- 00:29:26would get to war John explained that
- 00:29:29better than anybody we're now at War and
- 00:29:32even this morning there is further
- 00:29:35escalation blinkin has said well if the
- 00:29:38Iranians give these missiles then we
- 00:29:40will give missiles to hit deep into
- 00:29:41Russia this is a recipe and then we had
- 00:29:45Bill Burns the CIA director say last
- 00:29:48week an absurdity that he knows but Cia
- 00:29:52directors never tell the truth if they
- 00:29:53do they lose their job but he said don't
- 00:29:56worry about nuclear war don't worry
- 00:29:58about saber rattling my advice to you is
- 00:30:02worry a lot about nuclear war and so be
- 00:30:06prudent you don't have to put the US
- 00:30:10military on Russia's border okay and my
- 00:30:14advice to Russia and to Mexico when I'm
- 00:30:16going to Mexico tomorrow I'll give them
- 00:30:18a piece of advice don't let China or
- 00:30:22Russia build a military base on the r
- 00:30:24Grant not a good idea for Mexico not a
- 00:30:27good good idea for Ukraine not a good
- 00:30:29idea for Russia not a good idea for
- 00:30:31China not a good idea for the United
- 00:30:34States we need to stay a little bit away
- 00:30:36from each other so that we don't have a
- 00:30:39nuclear war by the way I do recommend
- 00:30:42another good book and that is Annie
- 00:30:44Jacobson's nuclear war a scenario it
- 00:30:47takes two hours to read the world ends
- 00:30:50in two hours in the book uh and uh it's
- 00:30:53a very
- 00:30:54persuasive guide that one nuke can ruin
- 00:30:58your whole day as they say Jeffrey can
- 00:31:01um uh my my strong advice on this
- 00:31:05therefore is recognize China first of
- 00:31:08all is not a threat to the United States
- 00:31:13security big oceans big nuclear
- 00:31:16deterrent and so forth second we don't
- 00:31:19have to be in China's face what do I
- 00:31:22mean by that we don't have to provoke
- 00:31:24World War III Over Taiwan that's a long
- 00:31:27complicated issue but this would be the
- 00:31:29stupidest thing for my grandchildren to
- 00:31:31die for imaginable and I resent it every
- 00:31:35day when we play that game we have three
- 00:31:39agreements with China that say we're
- 00:31:41going to stay out of that and we should
- 00:31:44and then China would have no reason for
- 00:31:46war either
- 00:31:49China and then on the economic side let
- 00:31:52me just reiterate because I was asked
- 00:31:55yesterday and there was some surprise
- 00:31:57was it good to let China into the the
- 00:32:00WTO I said of course it enriched all of
- 00:32:03you by the way it enriched me it
- 00:32:06enriched this country it enriched the
- 00:32:08world including enriching China that's
- 00:32:11normal economics is not a zero sum game
- 00:32:14we all agree on that I believe that
- 00:32:17security doesn't have to be a zero sum
- 00:32:19game either we can stay a little bit
- 00:32:22away from each other and China does not
- 00:32:25spend its time beon in America being a
- 00:32:29western hemisphere hegemon they don't
- 00:32:33that's not their greatest interest to
- 00:32:35bring down American uh Power in the
- 00:32:38Western Hemisphere Jee what about the
- 00:32:40energy hold on let's let John respond to
- 00:32:42this just very quickly most of you have
- 00:32:45probably never asked yourself the
- 00:32:47question why is the United States
- 00:32:49roaming all over the planet interfering
- 00:32:52in every country's business it's in part
- 00:32:54because it's so powerful but it's also
- 00:32:57because it's a hegemon which means we
- 00:32:59have no threats in the Western
- 00:33:01Hemisphere so we are free to roam the
- 00:33:05great danger Jeff if China becomes a
- 00:33:08regional hedgemon and doesn't have to
- 00:33:10worry about security conc then they
- 00:33:12behave like us yeah then they behave
- 00:33:13like us exact but my point to you Jeff
- 00:33:17is let's prevent that from happening by
- 00:33:20preventing them from becoming a regional
- 00:33:22hedgemon we don't want them to have
- 00:33:24freedom to roam you were talking about
- 00:33:27them putting military bases in Mexico
- 00:33:30that's our great fear it's not my great
- 00:33:32fear they have no interest in doing so
- 00:33:35because they don't want to get blown up
- 00:33:36either so they do seem to have a big
- 00:33:38interest Jeff in Africa India Russia and
- 00:33:41they
- 00:33:43are China has a
- 00:33:45major um military bases there oh well
- 00:33:49they're building nuclear power plants in
- 00:33:50trade and they're building de difference
- 00:33:53in favor of that let's go compete that
- 00:33:55way I'm all in favor of that but Jeff
- 00:33:56that's cuz they're not a Regal hegemon
- 00:33:59yet yeah if you try to prevent them from
- 00:34:03being a regional hegemon we're going to
- 00:34:04end up in World War I because as you say
- 00:34:07yourself that this can absolutely spill
- 00:34:10over into war I don't want it to spill
- 00:34:13over into war on the theory that maybe
- 00:34:16someday they behave differently that's
- 00:34:18not a good theory for me so so so that
- 00:34:20part so John can we contain China
- 00:34:24prevent them from becoming a regional
- 00:34:25haimon without Direct ly defending
- 00:34:28Taiwan I mean isn't that where the
- 00:34:30rubber meets the road no it's not just
- 00:34:32Taiwan I mean one could argue there's
- 00:34:34sort of three flash points in East Asia
- 00:34:37that you folks should keep your eye on
- 00:34:38one is obviously Taiwan two is the South
- 00:34:41China Sea and three is the East China
- 00:34:43Sea and I think David that the place
- 00:34:46where a conflict is most likely today is
- 00:34:48not over Taiwan I could explain why I
- 00:34:51think Taiwan is not a serious problem at
- 00:34:53the moment or for the foreseeable future
- 00:34:55the South China Sea is a very dangerous
- 00:34:57place we could end up in a war for sure
- 00:35:01even if we did not defend
- 00:35:04Taiwan uh so Taiwan you don't want to
- 00:35:07overemphasize I agree with I agree with
- 00:35:10Jeff that we definitely don't want a war
- 00:35:14and we certainly don't want a nuclear
- 00:35:15war and he is absolutely correct that
- 00:35:17there's a risk of a nuclear war if a war
- 00:35:20breaks out of any sort between China and
- 00:35:22the United States many of us in the
- 00:35:25audience remember the Cold War and this
- 00:35:27was an everpresent danger in the Cold
- 00:35:29War but my argument is that this is
- 00:35:32inevitable because in a world where you
- 00:35:34don't have a higher authority and you
- 00:35:37care about your survival you have a
- 00:35:39deep-seated interest as any state in the
- 00:35:41system to be as powerful as possible and
- 00:35:45that means dominating your world um
- 00:35:47there is one uh player on this chess
- 00:35:50board that hasn't come up yet and then
- 00:35:51maybe we could skate to where the puck
- 00:35:53is going you know when you talk about
- 00:35:55the South China Sea okay sure South
- 00:35:57Korea Japan Jaan Australia all those
- 00:35:59major players there they're just a
- 00:36:00couple hundred million people but then
- 00:36:02China is in population decline she
- 00:36:05apparently is self-destructing in terms
- 00:36:06of trade seems like uh containment is
- 00:36:09working pretty well there because of the
- 00:36:10all the self-inflicted wounds but the
- 00:36:12fastest growing country fastest growing
- 00:36:14economy the quickest to develop is India
- 00:36:17and they seem to have a very pragmatic
- 00:36:19approach hey they'll buy cheap oil from
- 00:36:21Putin and they are their own sovereign
- 00:36:23country with their own point of view
- 00:36:25Would we not be really well advised over
- 00:36:28the next 10 to 20 years to make that our
- 00:36:30priority and India's role in this how do
- 00:36:32you look at them well we definitely view
- 00:36:34India as an ally right it's part of the
- 00:36:38Quad which is this uh this rubbe
- 00:36:40Goldberg type Alliance structure that we
- 00:36:43put together in East Asia that includes
- 00:36:45Australia Japan the United States and
- 00:36:47India and India is smartly maintaining
- 00:36:52its good relations with Russia the
- 00:36:54Indians understand like Jeff and I do
- 00:36:56that the Russians are no great threat
- 00:36:59but from India's point of view the real
- 00:37:01threat is China right right and there
- 00:37:03are two places where India cares about
- 00:37:05China One is on the India China border
- 00:37:09up in the Himalayas where they've
- 00:37:11actually had conflicts right and there's
- 00:37:13a real danger of War breaking out the
- 00:37:16second place which is maybe even more
- 00:37:18dangerous not at the moment but will be
- 00:37:20over time is the Indian Ocean because
- 00:37:24the Chinese are imitating the United
- 00:37:26States they not not only want to be a
- 00:37:28regional hedgemon they want to develop
- 00:37:30power projection capability so the
- 00:37:33Chinese are building a Bluewater Navy
- 00:37:35that can come out of East Asia through
- 00:37:38the Straits of Mala through the Indian
- 00:37:40Ocean to the Persian Gulf and once you
- 00:37:44start talking about going through the
- 00:37:45Indian Ocean the Indians get spooked and
- 00:37:49that's when the Americans in the Indians
- 00:37:51come together okay let's think of this
- 00:37:54from an engineering point of view if we
- 00:37:56could um
- 00:37:58why are the Chinese developing the Navy
- 00:38:01because for 40 years I've read essays on
- 00:38:07all of the choke points uh in the South
- 00:38:11China Sea the East China Sea the Indian
- 00:38:13Ocean against China that's our policy
- 00:38:17choke points look at the malaka Straits
- 00:38:20look what we can do here first island
- 00:38:22chain this is American strategy can we
- 00:38:25keep the Chinese submarine out of the
- 00:38:28Pacific Ocean First China first island
- 00:38:30chain and so forth so of course they
- 00:38:34react they're rich they're going to
- 00:38:36build a Navy so that they can get their
- 00:38:38oil on which their economy runs can we
- 00:38:40be a little bit sensible with them and
- 00:38:43decide how we're not going to have choke
- 00:38:45points and then we don't have to have a
- 00:38:47nuclear war which is really going to
- 00:38:48ruin our day that's the point we can
- 00:38:52think a little bit we can understand it
- 00:38:54from their perspective we can understand
- 00:38:56it from our perspec perspective
- 00:39:00deconfliction by the way I don't believe
- 00:39:03India is an ally India is a
- 00:39:08superpower India is going to have its
- 00:39:10own very distinctive interests thank you
- 00:39:13it's not going to be an ally of the
- 00:39:15United States I happen to like India
- 00:39:17enormously and and admire their policies
- 00:39:20but the idea that India is going to Ally
- 00:39:23with the United States against
- 00:39:25China in somebody's dream uh in
- 00:39:29Washington because it's another delusion
- 00:39:31in Washington because they should get a
- 00:39:33passport and go see the world and and
- 00:39:36and understand
- 00:39:39something but Jeffrey if they these are
- 00:39:43my fa students in Washington right now
- 00:39:46cuz they didn't listen to their
- 00:39:47Professor Jeffrey we're we're making our
- 00:39:49iPhones in India now is that not
- 00:39:53significantly important say again we're
- 00:39:55moving iPhone production maybe Cooper
- 00:39:58you're into economics here and that
- 00:40:00impact you you got Apple moving out of
- 00:40:02China you've got Japan funding people
- 00:40:05leaving China to Vietnam and to India is
- 00:40:07that not the solution here as we
- 00:40:08decouple from China it seems like they
- 00:40:10come back to the table we had XI
- 00:40:12jingping kick all the Venture
- 00:40:13capitalists all investment out of China
- 00:40:16he got rid of all the education startups
- 00:40:18and then whatever two or three years
- 00:40:20later he's in San Francisco asking all
- 00:40:22of us to invest more money and saying
- 00:40:23where'd you go okay first of all uh
- 00:40:27invite me back 10 years and we'll see
- 00:40:29how smart all these decisions are
- 00:40:31because uh Shing it's incred no I'm
- 00:40:34talking about yes we've moved to India
- 00:40:36that's our great Ally and then then
- 00:40:38we're going to have other other issues
- 00:40:41okay you I think you said that XI
- 00:40:43jinping's trade policy is uh implo self-
- 00:40:46imploding or something it seems like
- 00:40:48there's a lot of self-inflicted wounds
- 00:40:50when you it's not let me explain what
- 00:40:52the wounds are okay the wounds are the
- 00:40:55United States deliberate policy to stop
- 00:40:58you from selling things to China and to
- 00:41:00stop China buying things from you that's
- 00:41:03not self-inflicted this a clear wait
- 00:41:06minute just to say let me say please
- 00:41:09because it's very important for the
- 00:41:10economy of the people in this room this
- 00:41:13is a decision that was taken around
- 00:41:172014 to contain China and it's been
- 00:41:21systematically applied since then and
- 00:41:24it's not a surprise that Biden
- 00:41:28kept all the things that Trump did and
- 00:41:30added more and now Trump says I'm going
- 00:41:33to do all the things that Biden has kept
- 00:41:35in place and I'm going to do more this
- 00:41:37is not a self-inflicted wound the United
- 00:41:40States has closed the market to China
- 00:41:43okay is that smart no it's not smart is
- 00:41:46it leading to uh is it by the way
- 00:41:51recuperating American manufacturing jobs
- 00:41:55zero it may shift them a bit it make may
- 00:41:58make things less efficient it may may
- 00:42:01make all of you lose a bit more money or
- 00:42:04not make as much money but is it going
- 00:42:07to solve any single economic problem in
- 00:42:10the United States no way let
- 00:42:14me John let let John spicy I I just want
- 00:42:17to ask Jeff a question on
- 00:42:20this uh my argument is that this is the
- 00:42:24way the world Works yes I know and it is
- 00:42:27and it is but if I'm describing how the
- 00:42:30world really works how do you beat me
- 00:42:33the the reason is you've described a
- 00:42:36world you've described I think better
- 00:42:39than any person I ever read or know how
- 00:42:43American foreign policy works I think
- 00:42:46it's likely to get us all blown up you
- 00:42:49you not and you title not not because of
- 00:42:53John but because he made an accurate
- 00:42:55description of a profoundly misguided
- 00:42:59approach which
- 00:43:01is power seeking even if you're safe as
- 00:43:05a regional hegemon you're never safe if
- 00:43:08another Regional hegemon does what you
- 00:43:10do no you can't allow that to happen so
- 00:43:12you have to metal every single place in
- 00:43:14the world this now all I'm saying wait
- 00:43:18let me just finish because it's
- 00:43:19important that it is important to
- 00:43:22say try this in the nuclear age you
- 00:43:25don't get a second chance
- 00:43:27so this to me is the most definitive
- 00:43:31fact of Our Lives which is we are now in
- 00:43:35a war direct War direct War not proxy
- 00:43:39war direct war with Russia which has
- 00:43:426,000 nuclear warheads I can't think of
- 00:43:45anything more imbecilic than that aside
- 00:43:48from the fact that I know step by step
- 00:43:51because I saw it with my own eyes how we
- 00:43:54got into that mess because we thought we
- 00:43:56had to medal up to including putting
- 00:44:00NATO into Georgia in the caucuses of all
- 00:44:03places and Ukraine so we made that
- 00:44:06because we have to medal because we
- 00:44:09couldn't let good enough uh stand if we
- 00:44:13do the same with China there will be a
- 00:44:16war but it's not like reading about the
- 00:44:19Crimean War or World War One or World
- 00:44:22War II that's my difference this is a
- 00:44:25fine theory that explains a lot of
- 00:44:27things but damn if you can make chat GPT
- 00:44:32or you can make Optimus or you can make
- 00:44:35all the rest we can avoid nuclear war so
- 00:44:39just do a little bit better than saying
- 00:44:41it's
- 00:44:43inevitable all right
- 00:44:45so we only have a minute left so I want
- 00:44:47to give it to John I just want to ask he
- 00:44:49had a question I know but we only have a
- 00:44:50minute left and it's we got to add five
- 00:44:52minutes this is the best panel I've ever
- 00:44:54been on in my life can we just add 10
- 00:44:55minutes minutes we got to add 5 or 10
- 00:44:58minutes the best panel is this the best
- 00:44:59panel ever I feel like calling a respond
- 00:45:02wa wa before okay we got 5 minutes so
- 00:45:05before before we leave this topic John
- 00:45:07your book is called the tragedy of great
- 00:45:10power politics you clearly understand
- 00:45:12the tragic aspect of how great power
- 00:45:15rivalry great power competition can lead
- 00:45:17to disaster what Jeff is saying is we're
- 00:45:19now in the nuclear age and it's going to
- 00:45:22lead to nuclear war so do we have to be
- 00:45:25on this path or is there way off of it
- 00:45:28two points in my heart I'm with Jeff in
- 00:45:32my head I'm not with Jeff I wish he were
- 00:45:36right but I don't believe he's right to
- 00:45:38answer your question head-on I believe
- 00:45:41that there is no way out we are in an
- 00:45:43iron cage this is just the way
- 00:45:46International politics works and it's
- 00:45:48because you're in an anarchic system
- 00:45:50where you can never be sure that a
- 00:45:52really powerful state in the system
- 00:45:53won't come after you and inflict A
- 00:45:55Century of national humiliation on you
- 00:45:58so you go to Great Lengths to avoid that
- 00:46:01by trying to gain power at the expense
- 00:46:04of another power and that leads to all
- 00:46:07sorts of trouble can War be avoided I
- 00:46:10like to distinguish between security
- 00:46:12competition which I think is inevitable
- 00:46:15and War which is where security
- 00:46:17competition evolves into war I think War
- 00:46:19can be avoided and we were thankfully
- 00:46:22successful in that regard during the
- 00:46:24Cold War and hopefully that will be the
- 00:46:27case uh in the US China competition
- 00:46:29moving forward can I guarantee that no
- 00:46:34uh does this disturb me greatly yes but
- 00:46:38again this is just a tragic aspect of
- 00:46:41the world let me just ask one because
- 00:46:43we're a little bit I know we were going
- 00:46:45to try and talk about Middle East for a
- 00:46:47good chunk of this so I just want a
- 00:46:49scenario uh uh propose or kind of give
- 00:46:52you guys a scenario get your reaction
- 00:46:54because it is kind of what feels to be
- 00:46:55the most imminent uh theater of conflict
- 00:46:58uh the West Bank um the the Israelis are
- 00:47:03buttressing the settlements there's a
- 00:47:05lot of checkpoints things are getting
- 00:47:07very tense they're running raids and
- 00:47:09it's becoming a very difficult place to
- 00:47:10live for Palestinians and there's a real
- 00:47:11concern that the West Bank collapses and
- 00:47:13Israelis and Israelis but there's a real
- 00:47:16risk that the West Bank collapses and
- 00:47:18turns into a real conflict Zone if that
- 00:47:21happens the jordanians are sitting right
- 00:47:24there and they're not going to let
- 00:47:24Palestinians get slaughtered they're
- 00:47:26going to have to do something and
- 00:47:27they're such a strong Ally of the United
- 00:47:29States does that trigger a
- 00:47:33theater of response where what is Saudi
- 00:47:36going to do are others going to be drawn
- 00:47:37to the region does the collapse of the
- 00:47:39West Bank or the the the conflict that
- 00:47:41seems to be brewing in the West Bank
- 00:47:43become this kind of Tinder Box for
- 00:47:46everyone showing up and getting involved
- 00:47:48and um uh and create some sort of
- 00:47:51regional issue that we get drawn into in
- 00:47:53a bigger way can I start and have John
- 00:47:57have the last word uh you know I I work
- 00:48:00uh each day at the UN um and discuss
- 00:48:04this issue with ambassadors from all
- 00:48:05over the
- 00:48:06world there is over the last 50 years a
- 00:48:10a an agreement on what would make for
- 00:48:14peace and the agreement is uh two states
- 00:48:19uh maybe with a big wall between them on
- 00:48:22the 4th of June 1967 borders with a
- 00:48:25state of Palestine
- 00:48:27being the 194th UN member state and its
- 00:48:30capital in East Jerusalem and control
- 00:48:33over the Islamic holy sites and that is
- 00:48:36international law the international
- 00:48:39court of justice just reaffirmed that
- 00:48:41the Israeli settlements in the West Bank
- 00:48:44are illegal uh the uh international
- 00:48:47criminal court uh uh is likely to find
- 00:48:51or icj is likely to find that Israel is
- 00:48:53in violation of the 1948 genocide
- 00:48:56convention
- 00:48:57which I very much believe it to be in
- 00:48:59violation so my own solution to this is
- 00:49:04Implement International law two states
- 00:49:07build the wall as high as you need to
- 00:49:09build but uh you give Palestinian rights
- 00:49:12you establish a state of Palestine you
- 00:49:15stop the Israeli Slaughter of
- 00:49:17Palestinians you stop the Israeli
- 00:49:19apartheid state and uh you have uh two
- 00:49:23states living side by side Israel is
- 00:49:26dead set against that uh the entire
- 00:49:29Israeli political uh governance now is
- 00:49:33dead set against that hundreds of
- 00:49:35thousands of illegal settlers in the
- 00:49:38West Bank are dead set against that
- 00:49:40smotrich benir Galant Netanyahu are dead
- 00:49:44set against that so my view is it has
- 00:49:47nothing to do with what Israel wants it
- 00:49:49has to do with enforcement of
- 00:49:51international law so I want to see this
- 00:49:53imposed not because Israel agrees to it
- 00:49:56but because it is imposed and there is
- 00:49:59one country that stands in the way of
- 00:50:02imposing this not Iran not the Saudis
- 00:50:05not Egypt not Russia not China not any
- 00:50:09country in the European Union one
- 00:50:11country and one country alone and that
- 00:50:13is because of the United States of
- 00:50:16America and the is Israel Lobby somebody
- 00:50:19wrote a very good book about that too
- 00:50:21that I know uh the best book ever
- 00:50:23written about it by John uh uh and um
- 00:50:27that's what stops the solution that
- 00:50:30could bring peace and I believe we
- 00:50:32should bring peace because not only
- 00:50:35would that bring peace to the
- 00:50:36Palestinians and peace to the Israelis
- 00:50:39but it would avoid potentially another
- 00:50:41flasho that could easily end up in World
- 00:50:44War II let me answer your question about
- 00:50:48escalation potential the jordanians
- 00:50:50coming in uh Israel faces three big
- 00:50:54problems aside from problems with
- 00:50:56centrifical forces inside the society
- 00:50:59one is the Palestinian problem which is
- 00:51:01both in Gaza and in the West Bank it's
- 00:51:04one two is Hezbollah and three is
- 00:51:08Iran I think there is virtually no
- 00:51:11chance of what you described happening
- 00:51:14which is if the Israelis were to go on a
- 00:51:16rampage in the West Bank similar what
- 00:51:18they've done in Gaza that the jordanians
- 00:51:21would come in or the Egyptians or the
- 00:51:23Saudis they simply don't have the
- 00:51:25military capability this is a scenario
- 00:51:28where the Israelis completely dominate
- 00:51:31so in terms of escalation with regard to
- 00:51:33the Israel Palestine problem I don't
- 00:51:36think there's much potential Hezbollah
- 00:51:39is a different issue uh but mainly
- 00:51:42because it's linked with Iran right and
- 00:51:45Iran is the really dangerous flasho
- 00:51:48because as you know the Russians are now
- 00:51:50closely allied with the Iranians the
- 00:51:52Chinese are moving in that direction as
- 00:51:55well and
- 00:51:57if Israel gets involved in a war with
- 00:52:00Iran we're going to come in in all
- 00:52:03likelihood remember when the Israelis
- 00:52:06attacked the uh the Iranian Embassy in
- 00:52:12Damascus on April 1st on April
- 00:52:1614th the Iranians retaliated reciprocal
- 00:52:19response yeah but but we were involved
- 00:52:22we were we were forewarned weren't we
- 00:52:24yes we were forewarned but the point is
- 00:52:25that we were involved in the fighting
- 00:52:28right we were involved with the Israelis
- 00:52:30with the French the British the
- 00:52:32jordanians and the Saudis we were all
- 00:52:33involved in the fighting so this gets at
- 00:52:36the escalation problem now to counter
- 00:52:39the Iranian escalation scenario the fact
- 00:52:43is Iran does not want a war with the
- 00:52:45United States and the United States does
- 00:52:48not want a war with Iran and it's the
- 00:52:51Israelis especially Benjamin Netanyahu
- 00:52:54has been who has been trying to sort of
- 00:52:55suck us into a war because he wants us
- 00:52:59the United States to really whack Iran
- 00:53:02weaken it militarily and especially to
- 00:53:05go after its nuclear capabilities
- 00:53:07because as you well know they are close
- 00:53:09to the point where they can develop
- 00:53:11nuclear weapons so the Israelis are the
- 00:53:13ones who want us to get involved in a
- 00:53:17big war with Iran that's the escalation
- 00:53:19flasho and The $64,000 question is
- 00:53:22whether you think the United States and
- 00:53:25Iran kind of loting can work together to
- 00:53:28prevent the Israelis from getting us
- 00:53:31that that question will be answered
- 00:53:32based on the next who who who leads the
- 00:53:35next Administration well if you believe
- 00:53:38that it matters who leads the next
- 00:53:41Administration that's
- 00:53:43true take it out thank you let me just
- 00:53:46say Jeffrey and John now I know why saxs
- 00:53:51will not stop talking about you too this
- 00:53:53was the most amazing panel of the event
- 00:53:56so far are give it up for Jeffrey Sachs
- 00:53:58and John Mir shimer all
- 00:54:01right wow
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