John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024

00:54:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvFtyDy_Bt0

Summary

TLDRIn dem Video diskutieren die renommierten Professoren Jeffrey Sachs und John Mearsheimer die aktuelle globale Sicherheitslage und die Rolle der USA in dieser. Sie behandeln Themen wie den Aufstieg Chinas und dessen geopolitische Implikationen, die Bedrohung durch Russland, insbesondere im Kontext der Ukraine, und Probleme im Nahen Osten. Sachs hinterfragt die US-Politik, indem er sie als allzu machtorientiert bezeichnet und vor nuklearer Eskalation warnt. Mearsheimer hingegen argumentiert aus einem realistischen Ansatz heraus, dass Machtpolitik unvermeidlich ist und die USA ihre dominierende Position verteidigen müssen. Beide äußern Bedenken bezüglich der inneren Dynamik und Konfliktrisiken der aktuellen US-Foreign Policy.

Takeaways

  • 🌍 Diskussion über globale Sicherheitsfragen und Machtpolitik.
  • 🇺🇸 Auseinandersetzung mit der Rolle der USA in der internationalen Politik.
  • 💣 Jeffrey Sachs warnt vor nuklearer Eskalation aufgrund machtgetriebener Außenpolitik.
  • 🗺️ John Mearsheimer betont die Notwendigkeit, Chinas Aufstieg zu kontrollieren.
  • 🇨🇳 Debatte über Chinas ökonomischen und militärischen Einfluss als Bedrohung.
  • 🤝 Unterschiedliche Ansichten der Sprecher über die Ansätze in der Außenpolitik.
  • 🕊️ Forderung nach Deeskalation und Vermeidung von Konflikten, vor allem nuklearer Art.
  • 📈 Diskussion über die wirtschaftlichen Auswirkungen globaler Machtverschiebungen.
  • 🇮🇱 Diskussion über den Nahostkonflikt und die Rolle der USA.
  • 🧐 Kritische Betrachtung der imperialistischen Tendenzen in der US-Politik.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Eine Diskussion über politische Macht und den tiefen Staat, wobei darauf hingewiesen wird, dass sowohl Republikaner als auch Demokraten ähnliche außenpolitische Ziele verfolgen. Sachs argumentiert, dass Machtspiele oft auf wirtschaftlicher Einflussnahme und militärischer Stärke beruhen, während Mearsheimer darauf hinweist, dass Trump versuchte, sich von diesem Muster abzusetzen, aber letztendlich scheiterte.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Erläuterung des tiefen Staates als administratives Netzwerk innerhalb der US-Regierung, das eine kohärente außenpolitische Strategie verfolgt. Mearsheimer erklärt, dass diese Bürokraten oft langfristige außenpolitische Ziele verfolgen, die sowohl Republikaner als auch Demokraten teilen. Sachs ergänzt, dass es sich bei der Außenpolitik der USA eher um Machterhaltung als um die Förderung von Demokratie handelt.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Diskussion über die Doktrin der Machterhaltung als primäres Ziel der US-Außenpolitik. Mearsheimer argumentiert, dass die Neigung zur Demokratisierung in anderen Ländern durch militärische Intervention schädlich ist. Sachs hingegen glaubt, dass das Hauptziel der USA weniger mit der Förderung von Demokratie zu tun hat, sondern mit der Anpassung der globalen Machtverhältnisse zu ihren Gunsten.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Mearsheimer stellt die Idee infrage, Diktaturen aktiv zu schwächen, und diskutiert die Grenzen und Herausforderungen einer auf Freiheit basierenden Außenpolitik. Sachs argumentiert, dass die USA oft aus machtpolitischen Gründen agieren und es ihnen nicht um den Aufbau von Demokratien geht. Beide stimmen jedoch darin überein, dass externe Eingriffe oft misslungen sind.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Die Diskussion richtet sich auf China und Russland. Mearsheimer sieht Russland nicht als Bedrohung und glaubt, dass die USA strategische Fehler gemacht haben, indem sie Moskau in eine Allianz mit Peking gedrängt haben. Er sieht China als Hauptbedrohung, die es einzudämmen gilt, während Sachs Chinas Aufstieg als wirtschaftliche Chance ansieht und betont, dass sich die USA nicht als Weltpolizei aufspielen sollten.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Erörterung der Einschätzung der Bedrohung durch China. Mearsheimer vertritt die Meinung, dass China, da es mächtiger wird, bestrebt ist, in Asien hegemonial zu werden, und dass es im Interesse der USA ist, dies zu verhindern. Er betont, dass die USA es sich nicht leisten können, einen weiteren regionalen Hegemon zuzulassen.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Die Diskussion wechselt zu einer möglichen Eskalation mit China und der internationalen Strategie der USA. Mearsheimer erklärt seine Sichtweise, dass China bestrebt ist, seinen militärischen Einfluss im asiatischen Raum auszuweiten, was die USA dazu zwingt, gegenzusteuern, um ihre Vormachtstellung zu sichern. Sachs hingegen warnt vor der Gefahr einer nuklearen Eskalation und plädiert für Deeskalation.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Die Möglichkeit einer Eindämmung Chinas ohne den Einsatz militärischer Mittel wird erörtert, wobei mehrere potenzielle Konfliktpunkte in Ostasien wie das Südchinesische Meer hervorgehoben werden. Mearsheimer und Sachs betonen beide die Notwendigkeit, einen ausgewachsenen Krieg zu vermeiden, wobei Sachs argumentiert, dass wirtschaftliche Verflechtungen und Deeskalation politisch priorisiert werden sollten.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    Die Rolle Indiens im geopolitischen Spiel wird erläutert, wobei Mearsheimer darauf hinweist, dass Indien seine Politik aufgrund seiner regionalen Interessen selbstständig gestalten wird. Es wird auch die Bedeutung Indiens als zukünftiger wirtschaftlicher und technischer Machtfaktor betrachtet.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:54:05

    Zum Schluss diskutieren Sachs und Mearsheimer die potenziellen globalen Risiken, die durch derzeitige geopolitische Spannungen entstehen könnten. Sie stimmen darin überein, dass die Gefahr eines nuklearen Konflikts durch kluge strategische Entscheidungen und zurückhaltende Machtpolitik abgewendet werden sollte. Zusammenfassend wird die pessimistischen Ausblicke Mearsheimers gegen die pragmatischen Hoffnung Sachs gestellt, die auf Vermeidungsstrategien setzt.

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Mind Map

Mind Map

Frequently Asked Question

  • Wer sind die Hauptredner in dem Video?

    Professor John Mearsheimer von der University of Chicago und Professor Jeffrey Sachs von der Columbia University.

  • Was ist das Hauptthema der Diskussion?

    Die Diskussion konzentriert sich auf Machtpolitik, globale Sicherheitsherausforderungen und die Rolle der USA in der Welt, insbesondere im Kontext von China, Russland und dem Nahen Osten.

  • Welche Sicht hat John Mearsheimer auf Chinas Aufstieg?

    John Mearsheimer sieht den Aufstieg Chinas als Bedrohung und glaubt, dass die USA China daran hindern sollten, regionale Vormachtstellung zu erlangen.

  • Wie steht Jeffrey Sachs zu der US-amerikanischen Außenpolitik?

    Jeffrey Sachs kritisiert die US-amerikanische Außenpolitik als machtgesteuert und warnt vor den Gefahren eines Eskalationspfades, insbesondere mit nuklear bewaffneten Staaten.

  • Welche Ansicht vertritt Jeffrey Sachs bezüglich nuklearer Kriegsgefahr?

    Jeffrey Sachs warnt stark vor der Gefahr eines nuklearen Kriegs aufgrund eskalierender Machtpolitik und ruft zur Vorsicht und Deeskalation auf.

  • Wie beschreibt das Video die Beziehung zwischen den USA und Russland?

    Die Beziehung wird als angespannt beschrieben, mit Fokus auf den Konflikt in der Ukraine und der Rolle der USA in diesem Kontext, die Russia als Bedrohung wahrnimmt.

  • Was ist die Meinung der Redner zu den Konflikten im Nahen Osten?

    Die Redner diskutieren die Komplexität der Konflikte im Nahen Osten, einschließlich der Rolle Israels und der Risiken weiterer Eskalationen, besonders im Kontext des Iran.

  • Gibt es eine Einigung zwischen den Sprechern über die Rolle der USA in internationalen Konflikten?

    Beide Sprecher stimmen darin überein, dass die USA oft zu sehr in internationale Angelegenheiten verwickelt sind, obwohl sie unterschiedliche Ansichten über den Umgang mit China haben.

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  • 00:00:00
    one of the most influential and
  • 00:00:02
    controversial thinkers in the
  • 00:00:04
    world he is known as one of the world's
  • 00:00:06
    leading experts on economic
  • 00:00:09
    development one of the most famous
  • 00:00:12
    political
  • 00:00:14
    scientists in
  • 00:00:18
    history we're talking about moral and
  • 00:00:21
    political principles here I would
  • 00:00:23
    suggest that all four Wars could be
  • 00:00:25
    ended quickly great power politics is
  • 00:00:28
    now back on the table if we are anything
  • 00:00:31
    as a world Community we have to
  • 00:00:32
    implement what we've
  • 00:00:35
    [Music]
  • 00:00:36
    [Applause]
  • 00:00:44
    said I'm excited for this panel we're
  • 00:00:46
    going to talk about foreign policy uh we
  • 00:00:48
    have I think two of the most interesting
  • 00:00:51
    imminent renowned thinkers about foreign
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    policy uh professor John mimer from
  • 00:00:56
    University of Chicago and Professor
  • 00:00:57
    Jeffrey Sachs from Columbia so great to
  • 00:01:00
    have you guys here
  • 00:01:03
    today it's uh it's a it's a big world
  • 00:01:07
    and there's a lot of things happening so
  • 00:01:09
    let's just jump into it um the big news
  • 00:01:11
    over the past week was that Dick Cheney
  • 00:01:13
    endorsed kamla Harris for president I
  • 00:01:16
    think for people who see the world in
  • 00:01:18
    partisan political terms this might have
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    been surprising but I don't think that
  • 00:01:22
    you guys were that surprised by that do
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    you see an underlying logic to this um
  • 00:01:27
    Jeff why don't I start with you
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    I think it's obvious there's basically
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    one deep State party uh and that is the
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    party of Cheney uh Harris Biden uh
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    Victoria newand my colleague at Columbia
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    University now uh and uh newand is kind
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    of the face of all of this because she
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    has been in every Administration for the
  • 00:01:50
    last 30 years she was in the Clinton
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    Administration wrecking our policies
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    towards Russia in the 1990s she was uh
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    in the Bush Administration Jor uh with
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    Cheney uh wrecking our policies towards
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    NATO enlargement uh she was in uh then
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    the Obama Administration as Hillary's uh
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    spokesperson first and then making a
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    coup in Ukraine in February 2014 not a
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    great move started a war then she was uh
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    Biden's uh uh under Secretary of State
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    now that's both parties uh it's a a
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    colossal mess and um she's been Cheney's
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    uh adviser she's been Biden's advisor
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    she she uh and uh makes perfect sense
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    this is the reality uh we're trying to
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    find out if there's another party that's
  • 00:02:48
    the big question and John what's what's
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    your thought on that do you see any
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    difference between uh Republicans and
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    Democrats no I like to refer to the
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    Republicans and the Democrats as Tweedle
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    D and Tweedle du
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    there's hardly any difference I actually
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    think the one exception is that uh
  • 00:03:09
    former president Trump when he became
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    president in 2017 was bent on beating
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    back to deep State and becoming a
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    different kind of leader on the foreign
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    policy front but he basically failed and
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    he is vowed that if he gets elected this
  • 00:03:26
    time uh it will be different and he will
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    beat back the Deep State he will pursue
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    a foreign policy that's fundamentally
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    different uh than Republicans and
  • 00:03:35
    Democrats have pursued up to now and the
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    big question on the table is whether or
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    not you think Trump can beat the Deep
  • 00:03:42
    State and these two established parties
  • 00:03:44
    uh and i' bet against Trump John um and
  • 00:03:48
    Jeff but let's start with John can you
  • 00:03:50
    actually Define for us for me I don't
  • 00:03:53
    understand when people say deep State
  • 00:03:54
    what it is I almost viewed the term
  • 00:03:56
    comically we have one of our friends in
  • 00:03:58
    our group chat who we called Deep state
  • 00:03:59
    who is he's deep State he's really in
  • 00:04:03
    the Deep state but we say it as a joke
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    but for maybe the uninitiated what does
  • 00:04:08
    it actually mean what are their
  • 00:04:10
    incentives who are
  • 00:04:12
    they Jeff maybe you want to start or
  • 00:04:14
    John you want to start yeah I'll say a
  • 00:04:16
    few words about it when we talk about
  • 00:04:17
    the Deep State we're talking really
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    about the administrative State it's very
  • 00:04:22
    important to understand that starting in
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    the late 19th early 20th century uh
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    given developments uh in the American
  • 00:04:30
    economy it was imperative that we
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    develop and this was true of all Western
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    countries a very powerful Central State
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    that could run the country and over time
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    that state has grown in power and since
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    World War II the United States as you
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    all know has been involved in every nook
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    and cranny of the world fighting Wars
  • 00:04:51
    Here There and Everywhere and to do that
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    you need a very powerful administrative
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    State uh that can help manage foreign
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    policy but in the process what happens
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    is you get all of these highlevel
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    bureaucrats middle level and lowlevel
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    bureaucrats who become established in
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    positions in the Pentagon the state
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    department the intelligence Community
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    you name it and they end up having a
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    vested interest in pursuing a particular
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    foreign policy and the particular
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    foreign policy that they like to pursue
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    is the one that the Democrats and the
  • 00:05:26
    Republicans are pushing and that's why
  • 00:05:29
    we talk about Tweedle D and Tweedle Dum
  • 00:05:31
    with regard to the two parties you could
  • 00:05:33
    throw in uh the Deep State as being on
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    the same page as those other two uh
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    institutions yeah there there's a very
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    interesting interview of Putin uh in
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    figuro in
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    2017 and he says uh I've dealt with
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    three presidents now they come into
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    office with some ideas even but then uh
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    the men in the dark suits and the blue
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    ties and then he said I I wear red ties
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    but they wear blue ties they come in and
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    explain the way the world really is and
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    there go the ideas and I think that's
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    Putin's experience that's our experience
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    that's my experience which is that
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    there's a deeply entrained foreign
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    policy it has been in place in my
  • 00:06:18
    interpretation for many decades but
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    arguably a variant of it has been in
  • 00:06:23
    place since
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    1992 I got to watch some of it early on
  • 00:06:27
    because I was an adviser to gorb and I
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    was an adviser to yelson and so I saw
  • 00:06:33
    early makings of this though I didn't
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    fully understand it except in retrospect
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    but that policy has been mostly in place
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    pretty consistently for 30 years and it
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    didn't really matter whether it was Bush
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    senior whether it was Clinton whether it
  • 00:06:48
    was Bush Jr whether it was Obama whether
  • 00:06:50
    it was Trump after all who did Trump
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    hire he hired John Bolton well the uh
  • 00:06:56
    pretty deep State uh that was the end of
  • 00:07:00
    they told you know he explained this is
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    the way it is and by the way Bolton
  • 00:07:03
    explained also in his Memoirs when when
  • 00:07:06
    Trump didn't agree we figured out ways
  • 00:07:07
    to trick him basically so well and what
  • 00:07:10
    what are their incentives is it war is
  • 00:07:12
    it self-enrichment is it power is it all
  • 00:07:14
    three is it some or is it yeah is it is
  • 00:07:16
    it just is there a philosophical
  • 00:07:19
    entrenchment or is it just this inertial
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    issue that like once a policy begins
  • 00:07:24
    it's hard to change and the system's
  • 00:07:27
    just working with 10,000 people working
  • 00:07:29
    towards it
  • 00:07:30
    you know if I were lucky to sit next to
  • 00:07:33
    the world's greatest political
  • 00:07:35
    philosopher which I am um he'd give you
  • 00:07:39
    a good answer which is that the right
  • 00:07:41
    answer which is if you want to interpret
  • 00:07:43
    American foreign policy it is to
  • 00:07:45
    maximize power uh and uh he gives a John
  • 00:07:49
    gives a an explanation of that we have
  • 00:07:52
    uh some differences but I think it's a
  • 00:07:55
    very good description of American uh
  • 00:07:58
    foreign policy which is is that it's
  • 00:08:00
    trying to maximize Global power
  • 00:08:03
    essentially to be Global hegemon I I
  • 00:08:07
    think it could get us all killed this is
  • 00:08:09
    because it's a little bit delusional in
  • 00:08:11
    my mind but uh not not the I not not his
  • 00:08:15
    interpretation of their idea but the
  • 00:08:17
    fact that they hold that idea is a
  • 00:08:18
    little weird to me but in any event
  • 00:08:21
    that's the idea and every time a
  • 00:08:24
    decision comes inside that I've seen I'm
  • 00:08:27
    an economist so I don't see security
  • 00:08:30
    decisions the same way but every
  • 00:08:32
    decision that I've seen always leans in
  • 00:08:34
    the same direction for the last 30 years
  • 00:08:38
    which is power as the central objective
  • 00:08:42
    so Clinton faced an internal
  • 00:08:45
    cabinate really debate should NATO be
  • 00:08:49
    enlarged is this this is a post Cold War
  • 00:08:52
    phenomenon that it's well I'll I'll let
  • 00:08:54
    John take that just two very quick
  • 00:08:57
    points first of all I do believe that
  • 00:08:59
    the people people who uh are in favor of
  • 00:09:01
    this foreign policy uh do believe in it
  • 00:09:06
    it's not cynical they really believe
  • 00:09:08
    that we're doing the right thing I've
  • 00:09:10
    met them yeah no yeah the second point I
  • 00:09:12
    would make to you and this sort of adds
  • 00:09:14
    on to what Jeff said Jeff said power has
  • 00:09:16
    a lot to do with this and is a good
  • 00:09:18
    realist I of course believe that but
  • 00:09:20
    it's also very important to understand
  • 00:09:22
    that the United States is a
  • 00:09:23
    fundamentally liberal country and we
  • 00:09:25
    believe that we have a right we have a
  • 00:09:28
    responsibility and we have the power to
  • 00:09:30
    run around the world and remake the
  • 00:09:33
    world in America's image most people in
  • 00:09:36
    the foreign policy establishment the
  • 00:09:38
    Republican Party the Democratic party
  • 00:09:40
    they believe that and that is what has
  • 00:09:42
    motivated our foreign policy in large
  • 00:09:45
    part since the Cold War ended because
  • 00:09:48
    remember when the cold war ends we have
  • 00:09:50
    no rival great power left so what are we
  • 00:09:53
    going to do with all this power that we
  • 00:09:55
    have what we decide to do is go out and
  • 00:09:58
    remake the world in our own image so
  • 00:10:01
    that's a that's a values point of view
  • 00:10:03
    though right that there are values that
  • 00:10:05
    they hold dear that that many do hold
  • 00:10:07
    dear that
  • 00:10:09
    liberalism democracy does ultimately I
  • 00:10:12
    believe I've heard this reduce conflict
  • 00:10:14
    worldwide that there's an importance
  • 00:10:15
    that we've never seen two democratic
  • 00:10:18
    nations since World War II go to war and
  • 00:10:22
    that there's a reason why we want to see
  • 00:10:24
    liberalism kind of breed throughout the
  • 00:10:28
    world and it's our responsib ability for
  • 00:10:30
    world for Global Peace to make that a
  • 00:10:31
    mandate let me step in for one moment
  • 00:10:34
    okay sure very quickly and by the way
  • 00:10:36
    I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm uh what do you call
  • 00:10:39
    it where you pull the spirits of the the
  • 00:10:40
    voice of others but I'm I'm just trying
  • 00:10:42
    to channeling channeling that's the word
  • 00:10:44
    I want to be very clear I am forever
  • 00:10:46
    thankful that I was born in a liberal
  • 00:10:48
    democracy and I love liberalism but the
  • 00:10:51
    question here is do you think that we
  • 00:10:53
    can run around the world imposing
  • 00:10:57
    liberal democracy on other countries and
  • 00:10:59
    some cases shoving it down their throat
  • 00:11:01
    doing it at the end of a rifle barrel
  • 00:11:04
    and my argument is that's almost
  • 00:11:06
    impossible to do it almost always
  • 00:11:08
    backfires think Iraq Afghanistan so
  • 00:11:11
    forth and so on and secondly you begin
  • 00:11:14
    to erode liberalism in the United States
  • 00:11:17
    because you build a deep state right and
  • 00:11:19
    you want to understand that a lot of the
  • 00:11:21
    complaints here about cracking down on
  • 00:11:24
    freedom of speech and so forth and so on
  • 00:11:26
    are related to the fact that we have
  • 00:11:28
    this ambitious foreign policy those two
  • 00:11:31
    things go together in very important
  • 00:11:32
    ways what an let me let me disagree just
  • 00:11:36
    a bit uh because we agree actually on
  • 00:11:39
    the behavior and I've learned I'd say
  • 00:11:42
    most of that from you that it's power
  • 00:11:45
    seeking truly John in my work 40 years
  • 00:11:50
    uh overseas I don't think the US
  • 00:11:52
    government gives a damn about these
  • 00:11:54
    other places I I don't think they really
  • 00:11:56
    care if it's a liberal democracy if it's
  • 00:11:58
    a dictatorship they want the right of
  • 00:12:00
    ways they want the military bases they
  • 00:12:03
    want uh the state to be in support of
  • 00:12:06
    the United States they want NATO
  • 00:12:08
    enlargement I don't I know You' you've
  • 00:12:10
    written and there are some who believe
  • 00:12:13
    in stateb
  • 00:12:15
    building God if they do they are so
  • 00:12:17
    incompetent it's
  • 00:12:20
    unbelievable
  • 00:12:23
    but Professor s know I I'll give you an
  • 00:12:25
    example if I put just one one
  • 00:12:27
    example I'm I'm a friend with one of the
  • 00:12:31
    only
  • 00:12:32
    PhD Afghani Economist senior person in
  • 00:12:36
    the US um Academia over the last 30
  • 00:12:41
    years you would think that the state
  • 00:12:43
    department if they were interested in
  • 00:12:45
    State Building would ask him one day one
  • 00:12:49
    moment something about Afghanistan never
  • 00:12:52
    happened never happened not even one
  • 00:12:54
    question never happened he asked me can
  • 00:12:57
    you get me a a meeting with the
  • 00:12:59
    department they were completely
  • 00:13:01
    uninterested this is this is about power
  • 00:13:05
    you're too idealistic
  • 00:13:08
    John they don't care about the other
  • 00:13:11
    places they may feel we should be
  • 00:13:14
    whatever we want free and so forth but
  • 00:13:17
    Freedom I've been I've seen my with my
  • 00:13:20
    own eyes the coups the overthrows the
  • 00:13:23
    presidents democratic presidents LED
  • 00:13:25
    away they don't care at all this is
  • 00:13:28
    Washington
  • 00:13:29
    be a realist come on Professor mimer
  • 00:13:34
    I when we talk about power um there are
  • 00:13:37
    other people in the world who are trying
  • 00:13:39
    to accumulate power we live in a
  • 00:13:41
    multi-polar world right now and they
  • 00:13:43
    have in some cases very nefarious or bad
  • 00:13:46
    intent um and they do not have democracy
  • 00:13:49
    so it's one thing to you know tell uh
  • 00:13:51
    people in Afghanistan you need to evolve
  • 00:13:54
    you know to be a perfect democracy like
  • 00:13:56
    the one we have here I think we all
  • 00:13:58
    agree that's unrealistic and insane um
  • 00:14:01
    and not practical but what about the
  • 00:14:04
    free countries of the world uniting
  • 00:14:06
    together to stop dictators from invading
  • 00:14:08
    other free countries is that Noble is
  • 00:14:10
    that a good use of power and a good
  • 00:14:12
    framework for America to evolve too no I
  • 00:14:16
    don't think so uh I think that what the
  • 00:14:19
    United States should do is worry about
  • 00:14:21
    its own National interest uh in some
  • 00:14:24
    cases that's going to involve aligning
  • 00:14:26
    ourselves with a dictator uh if we're
  • 00:14:29
    fighting World War II all over again
  • 00:14:31
    it's December 8th
  • 00:14:33
    1941 you surely would be in favor of
  • 00:14:36
    allying with adol not with Adolf Hitler
  • 00:14:38
    with Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union
  • 00:14:41
    against uh Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany
  • 00:14:44
    sometimes you have to make those kind of
  • 00:14:46
    compromises uh as I said before I love
  • 00:14:48
    liberal democracy I have no problem
  • 00:14:50
    align with liberal democracy but when
  • 00:14:52
    you begin to think in the terms that
  • 00:14:54
    you're thinking you end up uh with an
  • 00:14:57
    Impulse to do social engineering around
  • 00:15:00
    the world and that gets you in all sorts
  • 00:15:01
    of problems well what I'm proposing is
  • 00:15:04
    when dictatorships invade other
  • 00:15:07
    countries then we take action it depends
  • 00:15:09
    maybe def defend them so it depends yeah
  • 00:15:11
    of course I mean when Russia invades
  • 00:15:15
    Ukraine basically what you're saying is
  • 00:15:17
    you want to go to war on behalf of
  • 00:15:20
    Ukraine against Russia are you in favor
  • 00:15:23
    of that no I would say diplomacy would
  • 00:15:25
    obviously be what we'd want to exhaust
  • 00:15:27
    but if they do roll into other fre
  • 00:15:29
    countries I think there's an argument
  • 00:15:30
    for the free countries of the world to
  • 00:15:31
    get together and say two dictators we're
  • 00:15:33
    not going to allow
  • 00:15:36
    this could I come in
  • 00:15:39
    here could I clarify a few
  • 00:15:45
    things look uh first of all
  • 00:15:49
    um almost all the time that we intervene
  • 00:15:53
    it's because uh we view this as a power
  • 00:15:57
    situation for the us so whether it's
  • 00:16:00
    Ukraine or Syria or Libya or other
  • 00:16:04
    places even if we Define it as defending
  • 00:16:09
    something believe me it's not about
  • 00:16:11
    defending something it's about a
  • 00:16:13
    perception of us power and US interest
  • 00:16:16
    and it's in objectives of us Global
  • 00:16:21
    hegemony and if we analyze the Ukraine
  • 00:16:24
    conflict uh just even a little bit below
  • 00:16:27
    the surface this is not a a conflict
  • 00:16:29
    about Putin invading Ukraine this is
  • 00:16:32
    something a lot different that has to do
  • 00:16:34
    with American power projection into the
  • 00:16:37
    former Soviet Union so it's completely
  • 00:16:39
    different second if we decide were the
  • 00:16:45
    police which we
  • 00:16:47
    do you can't imagine how cynical
  • 00:16:52
    we use to justify our actions
  • 00:16:56
    we used the cynical B that
  • 00:16:59
    we're defending the people of Benghazi
  • 00:17:02
    to bomb the hell out of Libya to kill
  • 00:17:05
    moamar Gaddafi why did we do that well
  • 00:17:08
    I'm kind of an expert on that region and
  • 00:17:11
    I can tell you maybe because sarosi
  • 00:17:13
    didn't like Gaddafi there's no much
  • 00:17:16
    deeper reason except Hillary liked every
  • 00:17:19
    bombing she could get her hands on and
  • 00:17:21
    Obama was kind of convinced my secretary
  • 00:17:24
    of state says go with it so why don't we
  • 00:17:26
    go with the NATO Expedition it had
  • 00:17:28
    nothing to do with Libya it un it
  • 00:17:30
    Unleashed 15 years of chaos cheated the
  • 00:17:34
    UN Security Council because like
  • 00:17:36
    everything else we've done it was on
  • 00:17:38
    false pretenses we did the same with
  • 00:17:40
    trying to overthrow Syria we did the
  • 00:17:43
    same with conspiring to overthrow Victor
  • 00:17:46
    yanukovich in Ukraine in February 2014
  • 00:17:50
    so the problem with this argument is
  • 00:17:53
    we're not nice guys we're not trying to
  • 00:17:55
    save the world we're not trying to make
  • 00:17:57
    democracies
  • 00:17:59
    we had a committee by the way of all the
  • 00:18:02
    luminaries you could mention but they're
  • 00:18:04
    The neocon Crazies but they're
  • 00:18:06
    luminaries the committee for the people
  • 00:18:08
    of
  • 00:18:09
    Cheta are you kidding do you think they
  • 00:18:13
    even knew where chn is or cared about
  • 00:18:16
    Chia but it was an opportunity to get at
  • 00:18:19
    Russia to weaken Russia to support a
  • 00:18:21
    jihadist movement inside Russia to do
  • 00:18:24
    this is a game but it's the game that
  • 00:18:26
    John has described better than any one
  • 00:18:29
    in the world it's a game of power it's
  • 00:18:32
    not that we're defending real things if
  • 00:18:33
    you want to defend real things go to the
  • 00:18:36
    UN Security Council and convince others
  • 00:18:39
    because the other countries are not
  • 00:18:40
    crazy and they don't want Mayhem in the
  • 00:18:43
    world but we play game so they say
  • 00:18:46
    that's a game Iraq which was obviously a
  • 00:18:49
    game before we went in it was a
  • 00:18:51
    obviously Co and Powell could not move
  • 00:18:53
    his lips without lying that day
  • 00:18:56
    obviously and so they said no but if
  • 00:18:59
    we're real about our interests then you
  • 00:19:01
    go to the UN Security Council and then
  • 00:19:03
    it's not just on us it's actually then a
  • 00:19:06
    collective security issue uh Professor M
  • 00:19:08
    if we were to take Jeffrey's position
  • 00:19:11
    here um that we are exerting power for
  • 00:19:13
    the sake of you know our reputation and
  • 00:19:16
    in fact to weaken dictatorships if I'm
  • 00:19:18
    if I'm summarizing correctly here um is
  • 00:19:21
    that not a good strategy to weaken
  • 00:19:23
    dictators around the world who might
  • 00:19:25
    like to invade other countries is there
  • 00:19:27
    is there a frame Fring in which you
  • 00:19:29
    could see that being um for you know a
  • 00:19:33
    world where democracy and people living
  • 00:19:36
    freely has gone down in our lifetimes is
  • 00:19:39
    that not knowable is there not a
  • 00:19:41
    justification somebody could make for
  • 00:19:42
    I'm not saying I have that but I'm just
  • 00:19:43
    trying to steal me on the other side of
  • 00:19:45
    this is weakening dictators and despots
  • 00:19:48
    a good strategy it depends uh well let's
  • 00:19:51
    talk about the the two that we have you
  • 00:19:53
    know uh Xi Jinping I think you wanted to
  • 00:19:56
    get to eventually and then Ukraine and
  • 00:19:58
    Putin are these people worth trying to
  • 00:20:02
    you know uh contain or even weaken well
  • 00:20:04
    in in terms of China I'm fully in favor
  • 00:20:07
    of containing China okay so containment
  • 00:20:10
    check it's containment I'm not
  • 00:20:12
    interested in regime change I'm not
  • 00:20:14
    interested in trying to turn China into
  • 00:20:17
    a democracy not going to happen yeah not
  • 00:20:19
    going to happen we tried it actually and
  • 00:20:21
    I thought it was foolish to even pursue
  • 00:20:23
    a policy of Engagement toward China with
  • 00:20:26
    regard to Russia I don't think Russia is
  • 00:20:28
    a serious threat to the United States
  • 00:20:30
    and indeed I think the United States
  • 00:20:32
    should have good relations with Putin
  • 00:20:35
    it's a remarkably foolish policy to push
  • 00:20:38
    him into the arms of the Chinese there
  • 00:20:40
    are three great powers in the system the
  • 00:20:43
    United States China and Russia China is
  • 00:20:45
    a peer competitor to the United States
  • 00:20:48
    it's the most serious threat to the
  • 00:20:49
    United States Russia is the weakest of
  • 00:20:52
    those three great powers and it's not a
  • 00:20:54
    serious threat to us if you are playing
  • 00:20:56
    balance and power politics and you're
  • 00:20:58
    interested as the United States in
  • 00:21:00
    containing China you want Russia on your
  • 00:21:03
    side of the Ledger but what we have done
  • 00:21:06
    in effect is we have pushed Russia into
  • 00:21:09
    the arms of the Chinese this is a
  • 00:21:11
    remarkably foolish policy and
  • 00:21:13
    furthermore by getting bogged down in
  • 00:21:15
    Ukraine and now bogged down in the
  • 00:21:17
    Middle East it's become very difficult
  • 00:21:20
    for us to Pivot to Asia to deal with
  • 00:21:23
    China which is the principal threat that
  • 00:21:25
    we face
  • 00:21:27
    [Applause]
  • 00:21:31
    can I
  • 00:21:33
    think David could I just say uh 2/3
  • 00:21:37
    right
  • 00:21:38
    perfect so you gave him a b or B plus a
  • 00:21:42
    minus I always give him an A minus
  • 00:21:44
    inflation I just wanted to add a
  • 00:21:46
    footnote which is that China's also not
  • 00:21:48
    a
  • 00:21:49
    threat it's just not a threat I mean
  • 00:21:52
    we're going to get to it ch ch China
  • 00:21:54
    China's a market it's uh got great food
  • 00:21:57
    great culture uh wonderful people a
  • 00:22:00
    civilization 10 times older than ours
  • 00:22:02
    it's not a threat well as an economist
  • 00:22:04
    can you talk about the impact of a cold
  • 00:22:08
    or hot conflict with China from an
  • 00:22:10
    economic perspective given the trade
  • 00:22:11
    relationship yeah it would wreck
  • 00:22:13
    California for one thing it would
  • 00:22:15
    destroy the economy that you guys are
  • 00:22:17
    making completely this economy has been
  • 00:22:19
    the biggest beneficiary of China's rise
  • 00:22:22
    probably in the whole world so it's
  • 00:22:24
    crazy maybe if you're worried if you're
  • 00:22:27
    really worried about about whether uh a
  • 00:22:30
    worker in Ohio has a particular job on a
  • 00:22:32
    particular assembly line then uh you can
  • 00:22:35
    be anti-china if you're worried about
  • 00:22:37
    the tech industry about California about
  • 00:22:40
    peace and the future you should be
  • 00:22:42
    pro-china that's all so why is it become
  • 00:22:44
    so Universal to assume that we are
  • 00:22:47
    already in a state of conflict with
  • 00:22:49
    China on not just party lines but like
  • 00:22:53
    almost any Spectrum you could kind of
  • 00:22:55
    like
  • 00:22:56
    consider said it exact right and he
  • 00:22:59
    predicted it better than anyone in the
  • 00:23:02
    whole world in 2001 he said when China
  • 00:23:06
    becomes large we're going to have
  • 00:23:08
    conflict because that's John's Theory
  • 00:23:11
    and it's right as a description of
  • 00:23:13
    American foreign policy that we are for
  • 00:23:15
    power they are big therefore they're an
  • 00:23:17
    enemy they're an enemy of our aspiration
  • 00:23:20
    to Global City tra City let let's let
  • 00:23:24
    John jump in here do you want you want
  • 00:23:25
    me to is it okay if I talk about this
  • 00:23:27
    yeah yeah I mean I think um I think that
  • 00:23:30
    um what's interesting I mean you and
  • 00:23:33
    Jeff I think arrive at similar
  • 00:23:35
    conclusions about Ukraine uh but
  • 00:23:38
    different ones on China right because
  • 00:23:40
    Jeff is an economist and I think sees
  • 00:23:41
    the world in fundamentally positive some
  • 00:23:44
    ways based on the potential for trade
  • 00:23:47
    economics basically whereas you see the
  • 00:23:49
    world as more of a zero sum game based
  • 00:23:52
    on the balance of power why don't you
  • 00:23:53
    just explain that difference I okay uh
  • 00:23:56
    it is very important to emphasize David
  • 00:23:58
    was saying that Jeff and I agree on all
  • 00:24:01
    sorts of issues including Ukraine and
  • 00:24:03
    Israel Palestine but we disagree
  • 00:24:05
    fundamentally as he just made clear on
  • 00:24:07
    China and let me explain to you why I
  • 00:24:09
    think that's the case and then Jeff can
  • 00:24:11
    tell you why he thinks I'm wrong
  • 00:24:15
    uh it has to do with security whether
  • 00:24:17
    you privilege security or survival or
  • 00:24:20
    whether you privilege prosperity and
  • 00:24:23
    economists and I would imagine most of
  • 00:24:24
    you in the audience really care greatly
  • 00:24:26
    about maximizing prosperity for someone
  • 00:24:28
    like me who's a realist what I care
  • 00:24:30
    about is maximizing the state's
  • 00:24:32
    prospects of survival and when you live
  • 00:24:35
    in an Antarctic system and in IR speak
  • 00:24:38
    that means there's no higher authority
  • 00:24:40
    there's no night Watchmen that can come
  • 00:24:42
    down and rescue you if you get into
  • 00:24:43
    trouble and this is the International
  • 00:24:45
    System there's no higher authority in
  • 00:24:47
    that anarchic world the best way to
  • 00:24:50
    survive is to be really powerful as we
  • 00:24:53
    used to say when I was a kid on New York
  • 00:24:55
    City playgrounds you want to be the
  • 00:24:56
    biggest and baddest dude on the Block
  • 00:24:58
    and that's simply because it's the best
  • 00:25:00
    way to survive if you're really powerful
  • 00:25:03
    nobody fools around with you the United
  • 00:25:06
    States is a regional hedgemon it's the
  • 00:25:08
    only Regional hedgemon on the planet we
  • 00:25:11
    dominate the Western Hemisphere and what
  • 00:25:14
    China has begun to do as it's got
  • 00:25:18
    increasingly powerful economically is
  • 00:25:21
    translate that economic might into
  • 00:25:23
    military might and it is trying to
  • 00:25:27
    dominate Asia it wants to push us out
  • 00:25:29
    beyond the first island chain it wants
  • 00:25:31
    to push us out beyond the second island
  • 00:25:33
    chain it wants to be like we are in the
  • 00:25:35
    Western Hemisphere and I don't blame the
  • 00:25:38
    Chinese one bit if I was the National
  • 00:25:40
    Security advisor in Beijing that's what
  • 00:25:43
    I'd be telling XI ping we should be
  • 00:25:45
    trying to do but of course from an
  • 00:25:47
    American point of view this is
  • 00:25:49
    unacceptable and we do not tolerate peer
  • 00:25:53
    competitors we do not want another
  • 00:25:57
    Regional hedgemon on the planet in the
  • 00:25:59
    20th century there were four countries
  • 00:26:01
    that threatened to become Regional
  • 00:26:04
    hegemons like us Imperial Germany
  • 00:26:07
    Imperial Japan Nazi Germany and the
  • 00:26:10
    Soviet Union the United States played a
  • 00:26:12
    key role in putting all four of those
  • 00:26:15
    countries on the scrap peap of History
  • 00:26:17
    we want to remain the only Regional
  • 00:26:19
    hedgemon in the world we are a ruthless
  • 00:26:23
    great power never want to lose sight of
  • 00:26:25
    that fact and the end result of this is
  • 00:26:28
    you get an intense security competition
  • 00:26:31
    between China
  • 00:26:33
    and the United States and it revolves
  • 00:26:36
    around the concept of security not
  • 00:26:39
    Prosperity what you just very quickly so
  • 00:26:42
    what you see beginning to happen is that
  • 00:26:45
    it's in all domains where the
  • 00:26:47
    competition takes place especially
  • 00:26:50
    high-tech we do not want them defeating
  • 00:26:53
    this defeating Us in the Hightech War we
  • 00:26:56
    are competing with them econom ically we
  • 00:26:59
    are competing with them militarily and
  • 00:27:01
    this is because the best way to survive
  • 00:27:04
    is for us the United States of America
  • 00:27:06
    to be the only Regional hedgemon on the
  • 00:27:11
    planet so Jeff let me let me set it up
  • 00:27:14
    for for Jeff here so Jeff I you and John
  • 00:27:18
    I think agree that the the game on on
  • 00:27:21
    the board is power seeking I think what
  • 00:27:23
    John is saying is there are smart ways
  • 00:27:26
    and dumb ways to pursue power
  • 00:27:28
    that containing China is a smart way
  • 00:27:30
    what we're doing in Ukraine is a dumb
  • 00:27:33
    way whereas it seems like you're saying
  • 00:27:35
    that all power seeking behavior is bad
  • 00:27:37
    that's not the game we should be playing
  • 00:27:39
    we should somehow opt out of that is
  • 00:27:41
    that is that kind of where you're going
  • 00:27:43
    it's a it's not a bad way to say it but
  • 00:27:45
    I would I would put it in in another way
  • 00:27:48
    I read a very good book uh John's
  • 00:27:53
    um and and
  • 00:27:55
    John described
  • 00:27:58
    I'm going to quote him but he can quote
  • 00:28:00
    himself afterwards he he he said that
  • 00:28:04
    the regional
  • 00:28:05
    hegemons uh don't threaten each other
  • 00:28:08
    actually why because we have big ocean
  • 00:28:11
    in
  • 00:28:12
    between
  • 00:28:13
    I deeply believe that China is not a
  • 00:28:17
    threat to the United States and I deeply
  • 00:28:21
    believe the only threat to the United
  • 00:28:24
    States period in the world given the
  • 00:28:27
    oceans given our size and given the
  • 00:28:30
    military is nuclear
  • 00:28:33
    war I deeply believe we're close to
  • 00:28:36
    nuclear war because we have a mindset
  • 00:28:42
    that leads us in that direction we have
  • 00:28:45
    a mindset that everything is a challenge
  • 00:28:47
    for survival and that escalation is
  • 00:28:50
    therefore always the right approach my
  • 00:28:53
    view is a little bit of prudence could
  • 00:28:56
    save the whole planet
  • 00:28:58
    so why I don't like Ukraine is that I
  • 00:29:02
    don't see any reason in the world that
  • 00:29:05
    NATO has to be on Russia's border with
  • 00:29:08
    Ukraine I was as I said gorbachov's
  • 00:29:11
    adviser and yelton's adviser and they
  • 00:29:14
    wanted peace and they wanted cooperation
  • 00:29:17
    but whatever they wanted they did not
  • 00:29:19
    want the US military on their border so
  • 00:29:23
    if we continued to push as we did we
  • 00:29:26
    would get to war John explained that
  • 00:29:29
    better than anybody we're now at War and
  • 00:29:32
    even this morning there is further
  • 00:29:35
    escalation blinkin has said well if the
  • 00:29:38
    Iranians give these missiles then we
  • 00:29:40
    will give missiles to hit deep into
  • 00:29:41
    Russia this is a recipe and then we had
  • 00:29:45
    Bill Burns the CIA director say last
  • 00:29:48
    week an absurdity that he knows but Cia
  • 00:29:52
    directors never tell the truth if they
  • 00:29:53
    do they lose their job but he said don't
  • 00:29:56
    worry about nuclear war don't worry
  • 00:29:58
    about saber rattling my advice to you is
  • 00:30:02
    worry a lot about nuclear war and so be
  • 00:30:06
    prudent you don't have to put the US
  • 00:30:10
    military on Russia's border okay and my
  • 00:30:14
    advice to Russia and to Mexico when I'm
  • 00:30:16
    going to Mexico tomorrow I'll give them
  • 00:30:18
    a piece of advice don't let China or
  • 00:30:22
    Russia build a military base on the r
  • 00:30:24
    Grant not a good idea for Mexico not a
  • 00:30:27
    good good idea for Ukraine not a good
  • 00:30:29
    idea for Russia not a good idea for
  • 00:30:31
    China not a good idea for the United
  • 00:30:34
    States we need to stay a little bit away
  • 00:30:36
    from each other so that we don't have a
  • 00:30:39
    nuclear war by the way I do recommend
  • 00:30:42
    another good book and that is Annie
  • 00:30:44
    Jacobson's nuclear war a scenario it
  • 00:30:47
    takes two hours to read the world ends
  • 00:30:50
    in two hours in the book uh and uh it's
  • 00:30:53
    a very
  • 00:30:54
    persuasive guide that one nuke can ruin
  • 00:30:58
    your whole day as they say Jeffrey can
  • 00:31:01
    um uh my my strong advice on this
  • 00:31:05
    therefore is recognize China first of
  • 00:31:08
    all is not a threat to the United States
  • 00:31:13
    security big oceans big nuclear
  • 00:31:16
    deterrent and so forth second we don't
  • 00:31:19
    have to be in China's face what do I
  • 00:31:22
    mean by that we don't have to provoke
  • 00:31:24
    World War III Over Taiwan that's a long
  • 00:31:27
    complicated issue but this would be the
  • 00:31:29
    stupidest thing for my grandchildren to
  • 00:31:31
    die for imaginable and I resent it every
  • 00:31:35
    day when we play that game we have three
  • 00:31:39
    agreements with China that say we're
  • 00:31:41
    going to stay out of that and we should
  • 00:31:44
    and then China would have no reason for
  • 00:31:46
    war either
  • 00:31:49
    China and then on the economic side let
  • 00:31:52
    me just reiterate because I was asked
  • 00:31:55
    yesterday and there was some surprise
  • 00:31:57
    was it good to let China into the the
  • 00:32:00
    WTO I said of course it enriched all of
  • 00:32:03
    you by the way it enriched me it
  • 00:32:06
    enriched this country it enriched the
  • 00:32:08
    world including enriching China that's
  • 00:32:11
    normal economics is not a zero sum game
  • 00:32:14
    we all agree on that I believe that
  • 00:32:17
    security doesn't have to be a zero sum
  • 00:32:19
    game either we can stay a little bit
  • 00:32:22
    away from each other and China does not
  • 00:32:25
    spend its time beon in America being a
  • 00:32:29
    western hemisphere hegemon they don't
  • 00:32:33
    that's not their greatest interest to
  • 00:32:35
    bring down American uh Power in the
  • 00:32:38
    Western Hemisphere Jee what about the
  • 00:32:40
    energy hold on let's let John respond to
  • 00:32:42
    this just very quickly most of you have
  • 00:32:45
    probably never asked yourself the
  • 00:32:47
    question why is the United States
  • 00:32:49
    roaming all over the planet interfering
  • 00:32:52
    in every country's business it's in part
  • 00:32:54
    because it's so powerful but it's also
  • 00:32:57
    because it's a hegemon which means we
  • 00:32:59
    have no threats in the Western
  • 00:33:01
    Hemisphere so we are free to roam the
  • 00:33:05
    great danger Jeff if China becomes a
  • 00:33:08
    regional hedgemon and doesn't have to
  • 00:33:10
    worry about security conc then they
  • 00:33:12
    behave like us yeah then they behave
  • 00:33:13
    like us exact but my point to you Jeff
  • 00:33:17
    is let's prevent that from happening by
  • 00:33:20
    preventing them from becoming a regional
  • 00:33:22
    hedgemon we don't want them to have
  • 00:33:24
    freedom to roam you were talking about
  • 00:33:27
    them putting military bases in Mexico
  • 00:33:30
    that's our great fear it's not my great
  • 00:33:32
    fear they have no interest in doing so
  • 00:33:35
    because they don't want to get blown up
  • 00:33:36
    either so they do seem to have a big
  • 00:33:38
    interest Jeff in Africa India Russia and
  • 00:33:41
    they
  • 00:33:43
    are China has a
  • 00:33:45
    major um military bases there oh well
  • 00:33:49
    they're building nuclear power plants in
  • 00:33:50
    trade and they're building de difference
  • 00:33:53
    in favor of that let's go compete that
  • 00:33:55
    way I'm all in favor of that but Jeff
  • 00:33:56
    that's cuz they're not a Regal hegemon
  • 00:33:59
    yet yeah if you try to prevent them from
  • 00:34:03
    being a regional hegemon we're going to
  • 00:34:04
    end up in World War I because as you say
  • 00:34:07
    yourself that this can absolutely spill
  • 00:34:10
    over into war I don't want it to spill
  • 00:34:13
    over into war on the theory that maybe
  • 00:34:16
    someday they behave differently that's
  • 00:34:18
    not a good theory for me so so so that
  • 00:34:20
    part so John can we contain China
  • 00:34:24
    prevent them from becoming a regional
  • 00:34:25
    haimon without Direct ly defending
  • 00:34:28
    Taiwan I mean isn't that where the
  • 00:34:30
    rubber meets the road no it's not just
  • 00:34:32
    Taiwan I mean one could argue there's
  • 00:34:34
    sort of three flash points in East Asia
  • 00:34:37
    that you folks should keep your eye on
  • 00:34:38
    one is obviously Taiwan two is the South
  • 00:34:41
    China Sea and three is the East China
  • 00:34:43
    Sea and I think David that the place
  • 00:34:46
    where a conflict is most likely today is
  • 00:34:48
    not over Taiwan I could explain why I
  • 00:34:51
    think Taiwan is not a serious problem at
  • 00:34:53
    the moment or for the foreseeable future
  • 00:34:55
    the South China Sea is a very dangerous
  • 00:34:57
    place we could end up in a war for sure
  • 00:35:01
    even if we did not defend
  • 00:35:04
    Taiwan uh so Taiwan you don't want to
  • 00:35:07
    overemphasize I agree with I agree with
  • 00:35:10
    Jeff that we definitely don't want a war
  • 00:35:14
    and we certainly don't want a nuclear
  • 00:35:15
    war and he is absolutely correct that
  • 00:35:17
    there's a risk of a nuclear war if a war
  • 00:35:20
    breaks out of any sort between China and
  • 00:35:22
    the United States many of us in the
  • 00:35:25
    audience remember the Cold War and this
  • 00:35:27
    was an everpresent danger in the Cold
  • 00:35:29
    War but my argument is that this is
  • 00:35:32
    inevitable because in a world where you
  • 00:35:34
    don't have a higher authority and you
  • 00:35:37
    care about your survival you have a
  • 00:35:39
    deep-seated interest as any state in the
  • 00:35:41
    system to be as powerful as possible and
  • 00:35:45
    that means dominating your world um
  • 00:35:47
    there is one uh player on this chess
  • 00:35:50
    board that hasn't come up yet and then
  • 00:35:51
    maybe we could skate to where the puck
  • 00:35:53
    is going you know when you talk about
  • 00:35:55
    the South China Sea okay sure South
  • 00:35:57
    Korea Japan Jaan Australia all those
  • 00:35:59
    major players there they're just a
  • 00:36:00
    couple hundred million people but then
  • 00:36:02
    China is in population decline she
  • 00:36:05
    apparently is self-destructing in terms
  • 00:36:06
    of trade seems like uh containment is
  • 00:36:09
    working pretty well there because of the
  • 00:36:10
    all the self-inflicted wounds but the
  • 00:36:12
    fastest growing country fastest growing
  • 00:36:14
    economy the quickest to develop is India
  • 00:36:17
    and they seem to have a very pragmatic
  • 00:36:19
    approach hey they'll buy cheap oil from
  • 00:36:21
    Putin and they are their own sovereign
  • 00:36:23
    country with their own point of view
  • 00:36:25
    Would we not be really well advised over
  • 00:36:28
    the next 10 to 20 years to make that our
  • 00:36:30
    priority and India's role in this how do
  • 00:36:32
    you look at them well we definitely view
  • 00:36:34
    India as an ally right it's part of the
  • 00:36:38
    Quad which is this uh this rubbe
  • 00:36:40
    Goldberg type Alliance structure that we
  • 00:36:43
    put together in East Asia that includes
  • 00:36:45
    Australia Japan the United States and
  • 00:36:47
    India and India is smartly maintaining
  • 00:36:52
    its good relations with Russia the
  • 00:36:54
    Indians understand like Jeff and I do
  • 00:36:56
    that the Russians are no great threat
  • 00:36:59
    but from India's point of view the real
  • 00:37:01
    threat is China right right and there
  • 00:37:03
    are two places where India cares about
  • 00:37:05
    China One is on the India China border
  • 00:37:09
    up in the Himalayas where they've
  • 00:37:11
    actually had conflicts right and there's
  • 00:37:13
    a real danger of War breaking out the
  • 00:37:16
    second place which is maybe even more
  • 00:37:18
    dangerous not at the moment but will be
  • 00:37:20
    over time is the Indian Ocean because
  • 00:37:24
    the Chinese are imitating the United
  • 00:37:26
    States they not not only want to be a
  • 00:37:28
    regional hedgemon they want to develop
  • 00:37:30
    power projection capability so the
  • 00:37:33
    Chinese are building a Bluewater Navy
  • 00:37:35
    that can come out of East Asia through
  • 00:37:38
    the Straits of Mala through the Indian
  • 00:37:40
    Ocean to the Persian Gulf and once you
  • 00:37:44
    start talking about going through the
  • 00:37:45
    Indian Ocean the Indians get spooked and
  • 00:37:49
    that's when the Americans in the Indians
  • 00:37:51
    come together okay let's think of this
  • 00:37:54
    from an engineering point of view if we
  • 00:37:56
    could um
  • 00:37:58
    why are the Chinese developing the Navy
  • 00:38:01
    because for 40 years I've read essays on
  • 00:38:07
    all of the choke points uh in the South
  • 00:38:11
    China Sea the East China Sea the Indian
  • 00:38:13
    Ocean against China that's our policy
  • 00:38:17
    choke points look at the malaka Straits
  • 00:38:20
    look what we can do here first island
  • 00:38:22
    chain this is American strategy can we
  • 00:38:25
    keep the Chinese submarine out of the
  • 00:38:28
    Pacific Ocean First China first island
  • 00:38:30
    chain and so forth so of course they
  • 00:38:34
    react they're rich they're going to
  • 00:38:36
    build a Navy so that they can get their
  • 00:38:38
    oil on which their economy runs can we
  • 00:38:40
    be a little bit sensible with them and
  • 00:38:43
    decide how we're not going to have choke
  • 00:38:45
    points and then we don't have to have a
  • 00:38:47
    nuclear war which is really going to
  • 00:38:48
    ruin our day that's the point we can
  • 00:38:52
    think a little bit we can understand it
  • 00:38:54
    from their perspective we can understand
  • 00:38:56
    it from our perspec perspective
  • 00:39:00
    deconfliction by the way I don't believe
  • 00:39:03
    India is an ally India is a
  • 00:39:08
    superpower India is going to have its
  • 00:39:10
    own very distinctive interests thank you
  • 00:39:13
    it's not going to be an ally of the
  • 00:39:15
    United States I happen to like India
  • 00:39:17
    enormously and and admire their policies
  • 00:39:20
    but the idea that India is going to Ally
  • 00:39:23
    with the United States against
  • 00:39:25
    China in somebody's dream uh in
  • 00:39:29
    Washington because it's another delusion
  • 00:39:31
    in Washington because they should get a
  • 00:39:33
    passport and go see the world and and
  • 00:39:36
    and understand
  • 00:39:39
    something but Jeffrey if they these are
  • 00:39:43
    my fa students in Washington right now
  • 00:39:46
    cuz they didn't listen to their
  • 00:39:47
    Professor Jeffrey we're we're making our
  • 00:39:49
    iPhones in India now is that not
  • 00:39:53
    significantly important say again we're
  • 00:39:55
    moving iPhone production maybe Cooper
  • 00:39:58
    you're into economics here and that
  • 00:40:00
    impact you you got Apple moving out of
  • 00:40:02
    China you've got Japan funding people
  • 00:40:05
    leaving China to Vietnam and to India is
  • 00:40:07
    that not the solution here as we
  • 00:40:08
    decouple from China it seems like they
  • 00:40:10
    come back to the table we had XI
  • 00:40:12
    jingping kick all the Venture
  • 00:40:13
    capitalists all investment out of China
  • 00:40:16
    he got rid of all the education startups
  • 00:40:18
    and then whatever two or three years
  • 00:40:20
    later he's in San Francisco asking all
  • 00:40:22
    of us to invest more money and saying
  • 00:40:23
    where'd you go okay first of all uh
  • 00:40:27
    invite me back 10 years and we'll see
  • 00:40:29
    how smart all these decisions are
  • 00:40:31
    because uh Shing it's incred no I'm
  • 00:40:34
    talking about yes we've moved to India
  • 00:40:36
    that's our great Ally and then then
  • 00:40:38
    we're going to have other other issues
  • 00:40:41
    okay you I think you said that XI
  • 00:40:43
    jinping's trade policy is uh implo self-
  • 00:40:46
    imploding or something it seems like
  • 00:40:48
    there's a lot of self-inflicted wounds
  • 00:40:50
    when you it's not let me explain what
  • 00:40:52
    the wounds are okay the wounds are the
  • 00:40:55
    United States deliberate policy to stop
  • 00:40:58
    you from selling things to China and to
  • 00:41:00
    stop China buying things from you that's
  • 00:41:03
    not self-inflicted this a clear wait
  • 00:41:06
    minute just to say let me say please
  • 00:41:09
    because it's very important for the
  • 00:41:10
    economy of the people in this room this
  • 00:41:13
    is a decision that was taken around
  • 00:41:17
    2014 to contain China and it's been
  • 00:41:21
    systematically applied since then and
  • 00:41:24
    it's not a surprise that Biden
  • 00:41:28
    kept all the things that Trump did and
  • 00:41:30
    added more and now Trump says I'm going
  • 00:41:33
    to do all the things that Biden has kept
  • 00:41:35
    in place and I'm going to do more this
  • 00:41:37
    is not a self-inflicted wound the United
  • 00:41:40
    States has closed the market to China
  • 00:41:43
    okay is that smart no it's not smart is
  • 00:41:46
    it leading to uh is it by the way
  • 00:41:51
    recuperating American manufacturing jobs
  • 00:41:55
    zero it may shift them a bit it make may
  • 00:41:58
    make things less efficient it may may
  • 00:42:01
    make all of you lose a bit more money or
  • 00:42:04
    not make as much money but is it going
  • 00:42:07
    to solve any single economic problem in
  • 00:42:10
    the United States no way let
  • 00:42:14
    me John let let John spicy I I just want
  • 00:42:17
    to ask Jeff a question on
  • 00:42:20
    this uh my argument is that this is the
  • 00:42:24
    way the world Works yes I know and it is
  • 00:42:27
    and it is but if I'm describing how the
  • 00:42:30
    world really works how do you beat me
  • 00:42:33
    the the reason is you've described a
  • 00:42:36
    world you've described I think better
  • 00:42:39
    than any person I ever read or know how
  • 00:42:43
    American foreign policy works I think
  • 00:42:46
    it's likely to get us all blown up you
  • 00:42:49
    you not and you title not not because of
  • 00:42:53
    John but because he made an accurate
  • 00:42:55
    description of a profoundly misguided
  • 00:42:59
    approach which
  • 00:43:01
    is power seeking even if you're safe as
  • 00:43:05
    a regional hegemon you're never safe if
  • 00:43:08
    another Regional hegemon does what you
  • 00:43:10
    do no you can't allow that to happen so
  • 00:43:12
    you have to metal every single place in
  • 00:43:14
    the world this now all I'm saying wait
  • 00:43:18
    let me just finish because it's
  • 00:43:19
    important that it is important to
  • 00:43:22
    say try this in the nuclear age you
  • 00:43:25
    don't get a second chance
  • 00:43:27
    so this to me is the most definitive
  • 00:43:31
    fact of Our Lives which is we are now in
  • 00:43:35
    a war direct War direct War not proxy
  • 00:43:39
    war direct war with Russia which has
  • 00:43:42
    6,000 nuclear warheads I can't think of
  • 00:43:45
    anything more imbecilic than that aside
  • 00:43:48
    from the fact that I know step by step
  • 00:43:51
    because I saw it with my own eyes how we
  • 00:43:54
    got into that mess because we thought we
  • 00:43:56
    had to medal up to including putting
  • 00:44:00
    NATO into Georgia in the caucuses of all
  • 00:44:03
    places and Ukraine so we made that
  • 00:44:06
    because we have to medal because we
  • 00:44:09
    couldn't let good enough uh stand if we
  • 00:44:13
    do the same with China there will be a
  • 00:44:16
    war but it's not like reading about the
  • 00:44:19
    Crimean War or World War One or World
  • 00:44:22
    War II that's my difference this is a
  • 00:44:25
    fine theory that explains a lot of
  • 00:44:27
    things but damn if you can make chat GPT
  • 00:44:32
    or you can make Optimus or you can make
  • 00:44:35
    all the rest we can avoid nuclear war so
  • 00:44:39
    just do a little bit better than saying
  • 00:44:41
    it's
  • 00:44:43
    inevitable all right
  • 00:44:45
    so we only have a minute left so I want
  • 00:44:47
    to give it to John I just want to ask he
  • 00:44:49
    had a question I know but we only have a
  • 00:44:50
    minute left and it's we got to add five
  • 00:44:52
    minutes this is the best panel I've ever
  • 00:44:54
    been on in my life can we just add 10
  • 00:44:55
    minutes minutes we got to add 5 or 10
  • 00:44:58
    minutes the best panel is this the best
  • 00:44:59
    panel ever I feel like calling a respond
  • 00:45:02
    wa wa before okay we got 5 minutes so
  • 00:45:05
    before before we leave this topic John
  • 00:45:07
    your book is called the tragedy of great
  • 00:45:10
    power politics you clearly understand
  • 00:45:12
    the tragic aspect of how great power
  • 00:45:15
    rivalry great power competition can lead
  • 00:45:17
    to disaster what Jeff is saying is we're
  • 00:45:19
    now in the nuclear age and it's going to
  • 00:45:22
    lead to nuclear war so do we have to be
  • 00:45:25
    on this path or is there way off of it
  • 00:45:28
    two points in my heart I'm with Jeff in
  • 00:45:32
    my head I'm not with Jeff I wish he were
  • 00:45:36
    right but I don't believe he's right to
  • 00:45:38
    answer your question head-on I believe
  • 00:45:41
    that there is no way out we are in an
  • 00:45:43
    iron cage this is just the way
  • 00:45:46
    International politics works and it's
  • 00:45:48
    because you're in an anarchic system
  • 00:45:50
    where you can never be sure that a
  • 00:45:52
    really powerful state in the system
  • 00:45:53
    won't come after you and inflict A
  • 00:45:55
    Century of national humiliation on you
  • 00:45:58
    so you go to Great Lengths to avoid that
  • 00:46:01
    by trying to gain power at the expense
  • 00:46:04
    of another power and that leads to all
  • 00:46:07
    sorts of trouble can War be avoided I
  • 00:46:10
    like to distinguish between security
  • 00:46:12
    competition which I think is inevitable
  • 00:46:15
    and War which is where security
  • 00:46:17
    competition evolves into war I think War
  • 00:46:19
    can be avoided and we were thankfully
  • 00:46:22
    successful in that regard during the
  • 00:46:24
    Cold War and hopefully that will be the
  • 00:46:27
    case uh in the US China competition
  • 00:46:29
    moving forward can I guarantee that no
  • 00:46:34
    uh does this disturb me greatly yes but
  • 00:46:38
    again this is just a tragic aspect of
  • 00:46:41
    the world let me just ask one because
  • 00:46:43
    we're a little bit I know we were going
  • 00:46:45
    to try and talk about Middle East for a
  • 00:46:47
    good chunk of this so I just want a
  • 00:46:49
    scenario uh uh propose or kind of give
  • 00:46:52
    you guys a scenario get your reaction
  • 00:46:54
    because it is kind of what feels to be
  • 00:46:55
    the most imminent uh theater of conflict
  • 00:46:58
    uh the West Bank um the the Israelis are
  • 00:47:03
    buttressing the settlements there's a
  • 00:47:05
    lot of checkpoints things are getting
  • 00:47:07
    very tense they're running raids and
  • 00:47:09
    it's becoming a very difficult place to
  • 00:47:10
    live for Palestinians and there's a real
  • 00:47:11
    concern that the West Bank collapses and
  • 00:47:13
    Israelis and Israelis but there's a real
  • 00:47:16
    risk that the West Bank collapses and
  • 00:47:18
    turns into a real conflict Zone if that
  • 00:47:21
    happens the jordanians are sitting right
  • 00:47:24
    there and they're not going to let
  • 00:47:24
    Palestinians get slaughtered they're
  • 00:47:26
    going to have to do something and
  • 00:47:27
    they're such a strong Ally of the United
  • 00:47:29
    States does that trigger a
  • 00:47:33
    theater of response where what is Saudi
  • 00:47:36
    going to do are others going to be drawn
  • 00:47:37
    to the region does the collapse of the
  • 00:47:39
    West Bank or the the the conflict that
  • 00:47:41
    seems to be brewing in the West Bank
  • 00:47:43
    become this kind of Tinder Box for
  • 00:47:46
    everyone showing up and getting involved
  • 00:47:48
    and um uh and create some sort of
  • 00:47:51
    regional issue that we get drawn into in
  • 00:47:53
    a bigger way can I start and have John
  • 00:47:57
    have the last word uh you know I I work
  • 00:48:00
    uh each day at the UN um and discuss
  • 00:48:04
    this issue with ambassadors from all
  • 00:48:05
    over the
  • 00:48:06
    world there is over the last 50 years a
  • 00:48:10
    a an agreement on what would make for
  • 00:48:14
    peace and the agreement is uh two states
  • 00:48:19
    uh maybe with a big wall between them on
  • 00:48:22
    the 4th of June 1967 borders with a
  • 00:48:25
    state of Palestine
  • 00:48:27
    being the 194th UN member state and its
  • 00:48:30
    capital in East Jerusalem and control
  • 00:48:33
    over the Islamic holy sites and that is
  • 00:48:36
    international law the international
  • 00:48:39
    court of justice just reaffirmed that
  • 00:48:41
    the Israeli settlements in the West Bank
  • 00:48:44
    are illegal uh the uh international
  • 00:48:47
    criminal court uh uh is likely to find
  • 00:48:51
    or icj is likely to find that Israel is
  • 00:48:53
    in violation of the 1948 genocide
  • 00:48:56
    convention
  • 00:48:57
    which I very much believe it to be in
  • 00:48:59
    violation so my own solution to this is
  • 00:49:04
    Implement International law two states
  • 00:49:07
    build the wall as high as you need to
  • 00:49:09
    build but uh you give Palestinian rights
  • 00:49:12
    you establish a state of Palestine you
  • 00:49:15
    stop the Israeli Slaughter of
  • 00:49:17
    Palestinians you stop the Israeli
  • 00:49:19
    apartheid state and uh you have uh two
  • 00:49:23
    states living side by side Israel is
  • 00:49:26
    dead set against that uh the entire
  • 00:49:29
    Israeli political uh governance now is
  • 00:49:33
    dead set against that hundreds of
  • 00:49:35
    thousands of illegal settlers in the
  • 00:49:38
    West Bank are dead set against that
  • 00:49:40
    smotrich benir Galant Netanyahu are dead
  • 00:49:44
    set against that so my view is it has
  • 00:49:47
    nothing to do with what Israel wants it
  • 00:49:49
    has to do with enforcement of
  • 00:49:51
    international law so I want to see this
  • 00:49:53
    imposed not because Israel agrees to it
  • 00:49:56
    but because it is imposed and there is
  • 00:49:59
    one country that stands in the way of
  • 00:50:02
    imposing this not Iran not the Saudis
  • 00:50:05
    not Egypt not Russia not China not any
  • 00:50:09
    country in the European Union one
  • 00:50:11
    country and one country alone and that
  • 00:50:13
    is because of the United States of
  • 00:50:16
    America and the is Israel Lobby somebody
  • 00:50:19
    wrote a very good book about that too
  • 00:50:21
    that I know uh the best book ever
  • 00:50:23
    written about it by John uh uh and um
  • 00:50:27
    that's what stops the solution that
  • 00:50:30
    could bring peace and I believe we
  • 00:50:32
    should bring peace because not only
  • 00:50:35
    would that bring peace to the
  • 00:50:36
    Palestinians and peace to the Israelis
  • 00:50:39
    but it would avoid potentially another
  • 00:50:41
    flasho that could easily end up in World
  • 00:50:44
    War II let me answer your question about
  • 00:50:48
    escalation potential the jordanians
  • 00:50:50
    coming in uh Israel faces three big
  • 00:50:54
    problems aside from problems with
  • 00:50:56
    centrifical forces inside the society
  • 00:50:59
    one is the Palestinian problem which is
  • 00:51:01
    both in Gaza and in the West Bank it's
  • 00:51:04
    one two is Hezbollah and three is
  • 00:51:08
    Iran I think there is virtually no
  • 00:51:11
    chance of what you described happening
  • 00:51:14
    which is if the Israelis were to go on a
  • 00:51:16
    rampage in the West Bank similar what
  • 00:51:18
    they've done in Gaza that the jordanians
  • 00:51:21
    would come in or the Egyptians or the
  • 00:51:23
    Saudis they simply don't have the
  • 00:51:25
    military capability this is a scenario
  • 00:51:28
    where the Israelis completely dominate
  • 00:51:31
    so in terms of escalation with regard to
  • 00:51:33
    the Israel Palestine problem I don't
  • 00:51:36
    think there's much potential Hezbollah
  • 00:51:39
    is a different issue uh but mainly
  • 00:51:42
    because it's linked with Iran right and
  • 00:51:45
    Iran is the really dangerous flasho
  • 00:51:48
    because as you know the Russians are now
  • 00:51:50
    closely allied with the Iranians the
  • 00:51:52
    Chinese are moving in that direction as
  • 00:51:55
    well and
  • 00:51:57
    if Israel gets involved in a war with
  • 00:52:00
    Iran we're going to come in in all
  • 00:52:03
    likelihood remember when the Israelis
  • 00:52:06
    attacked the uh the Iranian Embassy in
  • 00:52:12
    Damascus on April 1st on April
  • 00:52:16
    14th the Iranians retaliated reciprocal
  • 00:52:19
    response yeah but but we were involved
  • 00:52:22
    we were we were forewarned weren't we
  • 00:52:24
    yes we were forewarned but the point is
  • 00:52:25
    that we were involved in the fighting
  • 00:52:28
    right we were involved with the Israelis
  • 00:52:30
    with the French the British the
  • 00:52:32
    jordanians and the Saudis we were all
  • 00:52:33
    involved in the fighting so this gets at
  • 00:52:36
    the escalation problem now to counter
  • 00:52:39
    the Iranian escalation scenario the fact
  • 00:52:43
    is Iran does not want a war with the
  • 00:52:45
    United States and the United States does
  • 00:52:48
    not want a war with Iran and it's the
  • 00:52:51
    Israelis especially Benjamin Netanyahu
  • 00:52:54
    has been who has been trying to sort of
  • 00:52:55
    suck us into a war because he wants us
  • 00:52:59
    the United States to really whack Iran
  • 00:53:02
    weaken it militarily and especially to
  • 00:53:05
    go after its nuclear capabilities
  • 00:53:07
    because as you well know they are close
  • 00:53:09
    to the point where they can develop
  • 00:53:11
    nuclear weapons so the Israelis are the
  • 00:53:13
    ones who want us to get involved in a
  • 00:53:17
    big war with Iran that's the escalation
  • 00:53:19
    flasho and The $64,000 question is
  • 00:53:22
    whether you think the United States and
  • 00:53:25
    Iran kind of loting can work together to
  • 00:53:28
    prevent the Israelis from getting us
  • 00:53:31
    that that question will be answered
  • 00:53:32
    based on the next who who who leads the
  • 00:53:35
    next Administration well if you believe
  • 00:53:38
    that it matters who leads the next
  • 00:53:41
    Administration that's
  • 00:53:43
    true take it out thank you let me just
  • 00:53:46
    say Jeffrey and John now I know why saxs
  • 00:53:51
    will not stop talking about you too this
  • 00:53:53
    was the most amazing panel of the event
  • 00:53:56
    so far are give it up for Jeffrey Sachs
  • 00:53:58
    and John Mir shimer all
  • 00:54:01
    right wow
Tags
  • Machtpolitik
  • USA
  • China
  • Russland
  • Naher Osten
  • nukleare Waffen
  • Außenpolitik
  • Globale Sicherheit
  • Konflikte
  • Internationale Beziehungen