The Marketing Expert: How to Get More Sales, Loyal Customers, and Bigger Promotions
Summary
TLDRThe discussion explores the concept of positioning in marketing, especially within tech and B2B environments. Effective positioning defines how a product is uniquely valuable to a specific customer segment, akin to setting a foundation for all other marketing efforts. Companies often err by neglecting deliberate positioning, leading to disconnected marketing messages and customer confusion. Small companies can successfully compete against giants like Salesforce by identifying underserved market segments, dominating them, and gradually expanding their reach. An illustrative example from a food product shows how positioning can alter a product's competitive landscape. It emphasizes the importance of precise positioning in today's saturated market landscape, where consumers are overwhelmed by choices and information. The biggest challenge in B2B sales is often customer indecision, not competition. Strong B2B storytelling involves portraying a compelling market context, but it must include insights about competition and differentiation, supplemented by a cross-functional approach involving marketing, sales, and product understanding. Effective positioning strategies are not just about marketing but involve the entire company, requiring clear consensus across departments on the value and target customer.
Takeaways
- đź“Š Positioning is foundational for marketing and sales.
- 🤔 Many companies don't actively think about their positioning.
- đź› Good positioning involves the whole company, not just marketing.
- 🏆 Success often comes from targeting small, underserved segments first.
- 🛍️ Consumer positioning differs significantly from B2B positioning.
- 📉 Customer indecision is a major hurdle in B2B markets.
- 🗣️ Storytelling must align with positioning to convey value.
- 🔍 Positioning involves looking at competitive alternatives.
- âť— Category creation should be approached cautiously unless truly groundbreaking.
- đź’ˇ Companies need a unified view on how to present their product.
Timeline
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
Positioning is foundational for a product's marketing and sales as it sets context, distinguishes from competitors, and resonates with a target audience. It's often wrongly equated with branding or messaging and misunderstood by many in tech. A strong example is reframing a product like cake as a muffin, altering context and comparisons, influencing customer perceptions and pricing.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Many companies, especially startups, fail to deliberately position their products, believing their initial idea suffices. This leads to a disconnect as the product evolves, exemplified by companies mislabeling an email-like product as chat. Proper positioning clarifies product category, competition, and expected pricing, as illustrated by positioning a CRM against Salesforce.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Bad positioning misleads customer assumptions, complicating marketing and sales efforts. Successful tech positioning often involves dominating an underserved segment before expanding. An example is Jan Systems altering from competing directly with a market leader to specializing in CRM for investment Banks, allowing targeted niche dominance and eventual expansion opportunities.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Niche market dominance strategy involves starting in a small, neglected segment and expanding from there. This allows companies to focus resources, minimize direct competition with industry leaders, and build a stepping stone for broader market ambitions. The challenge is balancing initial small-target focus with long-term growth potential to attract investors.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
B2B positioning differs from B2C as it deals with multiple stakeholders, often driven by fear of poor choices rather than personal preferences. Unlike B2C, where decisions might be emotionally driven, B2B demands rational justification for purchases, focusing on improving or saving resources to secure organizational and personal stakes.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Positioning affects buying decisions, especially in B2B where the stakes are high. Misaligned positioning can result in no decision, as fear of error stalls purchases. Proper understanding and communication of differentiated value that addresses specific customer pain points are essential, shifting focus from competitors to demonstrable benefits.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Repositioning failures often stem from misaligned assumptions about the product's value or market demand, as in the case of a fast query database misaligned with actual needs. Thorough customer Discovery is vital to ensure alignment of product features with true market requirements, avoiding building innovative but unwanted products.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Positioning on webpages must swiftly communicate unique value and target audience, focusing on benefits rather than features. Companies often assume understanding of their product’s features will naturally convey value, leading to missed connections with potential customers who need explicit explanation of benefits.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
Positioning clarity is often evaluated via customer comprehension and market comparison during sales. Misalignment may cause confusion or wrongful competitor comparisons, hindering sales efforts. It's essential that positioning resonates specifically with the target customer, ensuring clarity in product understanding and competitive landscape.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
Effective B2B positioning requires cross-functional effort involving marketing, sales, product teams, and leadership to ensure alignment and consistent execution. Positioning stewards, typically marketing, monitor consistency and market changes, but broad agreement across key company functions is crucial for lasting impact.
- 00:50:00 - 00:55:00
Companies err by not actively managing positioning, relying on superficial changes, or pursuing unnecessary category creation leading to confusion. Properly managed positioning considers product uniqueness, market dynamics, and customer perception. Misguided attempts to create new categories without clear differentiation often fail to resonate with the market.
- 00:55:00 - 01:00:00
B2B marketing education often misses the complexity of decision-making processes involving multiple stakeholders, focusing more on consumer marketing principles. Real-world B2B demands understanding of sophisticated purchase drivers, such as fear of poor decisions, requiring more nuanced sales and marketing strategies than typically taught.
- 01:00:00 - 01:05:00
Overcoming customer indecision—driven by fear—is a significant challenge in B2B, requiring clear communication of unique benefits and addressing safety and confidence in decision-making. Misunderstanding this dynamic results in lost opportunities, emphasizing the need for strategies that better manage indecision than traditional marketing tactics.
- 01:05:00 - 01:12:27
Positioning strategy's success is showcased by its clarity and customer resonance, simplifying sales processes and improving market fit. Effective storytelling in positioning reinforces unique market perspectives and product benefits, aiding in differentiating new or complex products within competitive landscapes.
Mind Map
Video Q&A
What is positioning in marketing?
Positioning defines how a product is the best in offering value to a specific customer segment.
Why is positioning likened to a foundation of a house?
In the context of marketing, positioning is the foundation upon which all messaging and branding are built.
What common mistake do companies make with positioning?
A common mistake is not deliberately positioning their product, often leading to ambiguity and confusion among customers.
How can small tech companies compete with giants like Salesforce?
Small tech companies can find an underserved market segment, dominate it, and then expand from there.
What is a classic example of positioning with food products?
The example of a double chocolate caramel cake positioned as a muffin to change its competitive landscape and perceived value.
Why is positioning more crucial now than before?
Due to a saturated market with infinite choices, clear positioning helps companies stand out and communicate effectively.
What is the biggest competitor in B2B sales?
The biggest competitor in B2B sales is indecision, as many deals end with no decision made.
Why should companies avoid positioning too broadly?
Positioning too broadly can lead to difficulty in standing out and targeting the right customer segment where they can actually win.
What role does storytelling play in B2B sales?
Storytelling in B2B helps articulate the unique value proposition and differentiates the product from competitors.
What influences a company's positioning?
Positioning is influenced by understanding competition, value differentiation, target customers, and market context.
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- 00:00:00so you can't tell just using you know
- 00:00:03what I would call the grandmother test
- 00:00:05you know would your grandmother
- 00:00:06understand this well unless you're
- 00:00:07selling a grandmothers it doesn't matter
- 00:00:09if I'm selling a specialized thing to
- 00:00:10specialized buyers it just needs to
- 00:00:12resonate with them it's okay if it
- 00:00:15doesn't resonate with your grandar the
- 00:00:16most common way that tech companies
- 00:00:19successfully position is they find an
- 00:00:23underserved Subs segment of the market
- 00:00:25and then they attempt to dominate that
- 00:00:28Subs segment and then push out from
- 00:00:30there what are the most interesting
- 00:00:31mistakes you've seen people make when it
- 00:00:33comes to positioning oh so many things
- 00:00:36the first mistake
- 00:00:38[Music]
- 00:00:45is I want to start with the basics what
- 00:00:48is
- 00:00:49positioning it's interesting I so I'm a
- 00:00:51positioning expert and when I started
- 00:00:54out as a consultant being a positioning
- 00:00:56expert the worst part about that is
- 00:00:58nobody really knows what positioning is
- 00:01:00they think they do so people will say
- 00:01:03positioning that's just like messaging
- 00:01:04isn't it I'm like actually no it's not
- 00:01:07quite that or they'll say positioning is
- 00:01:09like a tagline we're coming up with a
- 00:01:11tagline and I'm like oh gosh no there's
- 00:01:13a lot of things that we do that aren't
- 00:01:15tagline related my personal pet peeve is
- 00:01:19when people talk about brand positioning
- 00:01:21that drives me nuts there is positioning
- 00:01:23and there's branding those two things
- 00:01:25are actually really separate so most of
- 00:01:27the things that we confuse with position
- 00:01:29positioning are actually things we do
- 00:01:32with positioning once we're done with it
- 00:01:34but positioning is an input so if you
- 00:01:37think about it this way if everything we
- 00:01:39do in marketing and sales is the house
- 00:01:41positioning is the foundation upon which
- 00:01:43the house is built so my definition of
- 00:01:47positioning goes like this positioning
- 00:01:49defines how your product is the best in
- 00:01:52the world at delivering something some
- 00:01:55value that a well-defined set of
- 00:01:58customers cares a lot about now that's a
- 00:02:00bit of a mouthful a lot of the folks
- 00:02:02that I work with are not marketing
- 00:02:04people they're CEOs of tech companies so
- 00:02:06they don't have a background in this
- 00:02:07stuff so I think the best way to think
- 00:02:10about it is it's like context setting
- 00:02:12for products it's the context I position
- 00:02:15my product in such that customers kind
- 00:02:19of have an idea like what is this thing
- 00:02:21what's it all about why should I care
- 00:02:23it's a starting point for a conversation
- 00:02:25with a customer can you give me an
- 00:02:27example when one of the things that
- 00:02:30really stuck out to me I was always
- 00:02:32trying to explain to tech company CEOs
- 00:02:35with a tech company example and whenever
- 00:02:38I did that the tech company CEOs would
- 00:02:39say well that's a database that you know
- 00:02:41and we're not like a database so I
- 00:02:43thought I need some examples that have
- 00:02:44nothing to do with technology they're
- 00:02:46really simple so I was trying to come up
- 00:02:48with example and I was on my way to work
- 00:02:50and I went to Tim Horton's coffee shop
- 00:02:53in Canada so I'm standing in line and
- 00:02:56the guy in front of me is ordering
- 00:02:57breakfast it's 8:00 a.m. and he he
- 00:02:59orders this thing which is a double
- 00:03:02chocolate salted caramel muffin and I
- 00:03:06was like that is some genius marketing
- 00:03:08stuff right there so I've got a piece of
- 00:03:12cake it is double chocolate caramel cake
- 00:03:15but if I put it in the muffin format and
- 00:03:18I call it a muffin everything about that
- 00:03:20is different the whole context around it
- 00:03:23is different it is socially acceptable
- 00:03:25to to order double chocolate caramel
- 00:03:28whatever if you say it's a muffin
- 00:03:31because I'm now comparing it differently
- 00:03:34so if I said it was cake what's cake
- 00:03:36cake competes with other things that are
- 00:03:39like dessert it competes with ice cream
- 00:03:41and tasu and other things you would
- 00:03:43order for dessert what does cake cost
- 00:03:45well if in a restaurant it's $10
- 00:03:48$15 um where do I get it I might go to a
- 00:03:51bakery but I get it at a restaurant too
- 00:03:53when I'm talking about a muffin well
- 00:03:55muffin's totally different a muffin's
- 00:03:57breakfast it competes with a bagel and a
- 00:03:59donut what do I charge for a muffin I
- 00:04:02charge a dollar $2 for a muffin the
- 00:04:05whole context around it is different the
- 00:04:08product however is the same like that
- 00:04:11thing that you're eating is a piece of
- 00:04:13cake whether whether it's in cake form
- 00:04:16or muffin form so I can choose to
- 00:04:18position it as a muffin it's the same
- 00:04:21product but the assumptions about that
- 00:04:23the competitors are different your value
- 00:04:25is different the assumptions that
- 00:04:28customers have about that product are
- 00:04:30different because I've placed it in a
- 00:04:32different context what are the most
- 00:04:34common misperceptions about positioning
- 00:04:36that companies have I would say the most
- 00:04:39companies just don't think about
- 00:04:41positioning at all in the vast majority
- 00:04:43of cases the companies that I work with
- 00:04:46the positioning feels obvious It Feels
- 00:04:49Like You couldn't possibly position it
- 00:04:51as anything else so it started like this
- 00:04:54the founder woke up one morning and said
- 00:04:56you know what sucks email sucks we're
- 00:04:58going to make way better email it's
- 00:04:59going to be fantastic and it's going to
- 00:05:01fix all these things I hate about email
- 00:05:04and then they launch it and customers
- 00:05:06say I like this part I don't like this
- 00:05:08part they change it it evolves over time
- 00:05:11maybe the whole Market evolves if we
- 00:05:13fast forward two years from now the
- 00:05:15founder and everybody inside of the
- 00:05:17company still says email we're building
- 00:05:19this email thing but maybe that product
- 00:05:22actually looks more like
- 00:05:25chat because that's kind of like email
- 00:05:27too and so we'll start having this
- 00:05:29disconnect where the customer sees it
- 00:05:32and the company is saying well this is
- 00:05:34email look at our amazing email and the
- 00:05:36customer's like I don't know that kind
- 00:05:38of feels like chat you're calling an
- 00:05:39email I feel like maybe it's chat and
- 00:05:41now I'm confused and I don't really know
- 00:05:44what this thing is anymore when the
- 00:05:46company figures out they have a problem
- 00:05:48like oh maybe this is an email maybe we
- 00:05:50should reposition it nobody knows what
- 00:05:52to do at that point because they never
- 00:05:55deliberately positioned it or did a
- 00:05:57thing to decide it was email in the
- 00:05:59first first place it was just obvious of
- 00:06:01course it's email that was our idea
- 00:06:02that's what we're going to do product
- 00:06:04positioning is basically shaping the
- 00:06:07environment in the consumer's Mind by
- 00:06:09which they draw comparisons and know
- 00:06:11what to expect that's a good way to
- 00:06:13describe it it's a bit like the opening
- 00:06:16scene of a movie so you walk into the
- 00:06:19movie let's say you're going to the
- 00:06:20movie theater walk into the movie
- 00:06:21theater you know a little bit about it
- 00:06:22you bought a ticket but the job of the
- 00:06:25opening scene in the movie is to set
- 00:06:27context for the movie because you have
- 00:06:28these big questions where are we what
- 00:06:31time frame is this who are these
- 00:06:33characters what is the vibe of this
- 00:06:35whole movie you need to get these big
- 00:06:37questions answered before you can settle
- 00:06:40in and pay attention to the details of
- 00:06:42the story um so if we take I usually use
- 00:06:45Apocalypse Now is the example of a great
- 00:06:47opening scene the opening scene of
- 00:06:49Apocalypse Now starts with a shot of the
- 00:06:51beach it's palm trees it's all nice it's
- 00:06:52lovely you walk in you might think oh
- 00:06:55you know I know it's called apocalypse
- 00:06:57now but maybe it's not apocalypse right
- 00:06:58now maybe it's apocalypse 30 minutes
- 00:07:00from now so you walk in but suddenly
- 00:07:02this thing changes like the music gets a
- 00:07:04little bit more intense we see this
- 00:07:06thing it looks like smoke dust and
- 00:07:09you're like oh it's actually smoke
- 00:07:11helicopters go goes by and boom the
- 00:07:13beach is on fire and all of a sudden
- 00:07:15we're in the middle of the Vietnam War
- 00:07:17and then the scene changes and it's
- 00:07:19Martin Sheen he's in his hotel room he's
- 00:07:21drinking smoking he's clearly in
- 00:07:22distress he walks over the window he
- 00:07:25peeks out the blinds and we get the
- 00:07:26first line of dialogue which is actually
- 00:07:28his thoughts of the movie he looks out
- 00:07:30and he says Saigon I'm still only
- 00:07:33in Saigon every time I think I'm G to
- 00:07:35wake up back in the
- 00:07:36jungle so here we are we're 3 minutes
- 00:07:39into a a three and a half hour movie and
- 00:07:42we know a lot where are we we're in the
- 00:07:44middle of the Vietnam War specifically
- 00:07:46we're in Saigon our lead character has
- 00:07:48been there before it didn't go so well
- 00:07:51he has PTSD this movie is not going to
- 00:07:53be funny it's going to be kind of
- 00:07:55intense now I can settle in and pay
- 00:07:57attention to the details of the story
- 00:07:59positioning works the same way if I
- 00:08:03walked up in Shark Tank or I forget what
- 00:08:07we call it here in Canada what's it
- 00:08:09called Dragon's Den so let's say we have
- 00:08:11weirdo Dragon's Den and I'm not allowed
- 00:08:15to give you my whole pitch for something
- 00:08:17I'm just going to talk about the market
- 00:08:19category so the category that the
- 00:08:21product is positioned in so I walk out
- 00:08:24and I say I've got this amazing thing
- 00:08:26it's revolutionary Next Generation thing
- 00:08:28but it's CR M customer relationship
- 00:08:31management if you're tech people and you
- 00:08:34know what a CRM is you will make a whole
- 00:08:36bunch of assumptions about that product
- 00:08:38just because I called it a CRM so you'll
- 00:08:40say well you must compete with
- 00:08:42Salesforce they're the absolute leader
- 00:08:44in that market the gorilla in that
- 00:08:46market so I will just assume that you
- 00:08:47compete there I will make assumptions
- 00:08:49about what that product does I will
- 00:08:51assume that it track tracks deals across
- 00:08:53a pipeline I will assume who the buyer
- 00:08:56of that is I'll assume it's the head of
- 00:08:58sales vice president of sales I'll even
- 00:09:00make an assumption about the pricing
- 00:09:02even though I said nothing about what
- 00:09:04that thing is or who the expected
- 00:09:06customers are of that thing but if you
- 00:09:08assume that Salesforce is my big
- 00:09:11competitor because they're the absolute
- 00:09:13leader in that space I'm not charging
- 00:09:16more for my CRM than Salesforce is so
- 00:09:20this is how this works what it does is I
- 00:09:22positioned that
- 00:09:24product in a market category that market
- 00:09:27category has set off a set of
- 00:09:29assumptions in the customer's mind about
- 00:09:32that product if I do this well it sets
- 00:09:35off a set of assumptions about that
- 00:09:37product that are true and that's great
- 00:09:40now I've saved marketing and sales a
- 00:09:41whole lot of time energy effort I don't
- 00:09:44have to tell you exactly who my
- 00:09:45competitors are it's assumed I don't
- 00:09:47have to list every single feature a lot
- 00:09:49of that stuff is considered table stakes
- 00:09:51in the category but it works the same
- 00:09:54way if I do a terrible job of it so if I
- 00:09:56do a terrible job of it I position
- 00:09:59position my product in a market category
- 00:10:01such that it sets off a set of
- 00:10:03assumptions about my product that are
- 00:10:05not true now marketing and sales has
- 00:10:07their work cut out for them on doing
- 00:10:09this damage that your positioning is
- 00:10:11already done where they're like no no no
- 00:10:13we don't do that no no no I know you
- 00:10:14think that no no no it's not that it's
- 00:10:16just other thing so if I'm trying to
- 00:10:17compete with
- 00:10:18Salesforce should I do that in a way
- 00:10:21where I have a product it's it's
- 00:10:23probably inferior because I'm a startup
- 00:10:25right uh and so we can't go toe-to-toe
- 00:10:28on every
- 00:10:29every aspect how do we position that in
- 00:10:31a way to a consumer which in this case
- 00:10:35would be a business a business that's a
- 00:10:37buyer the most common way that tech
- 00:10:40companies successfully position is they
- 00:10:44find an underserved Subs segment of the
- 00:10:48market and then they attempt to dominate
- 00:10:51that Subs segment and then push out from
- 00:10:54there so I can give you an example I
- 00:10:55worked at a company called Jan systems
- 00:10:59and at the time this was quite a while
- 00:11:01ago so seil or Salesforce was a small
- 00:11:05company at that point and only selling
- 00:11:07to the very low end of the market but
- 00:11:08the gorilla in that space at the time
- 00:11:10was a big big company in Silicon Valley
- 00:11:13called seil and so they were fantastic
- 00:11:16company two billion Revenue fastest
- 00:11:18company to ever get to a billion Revenue
- 00:11:19in the history of Silicon Valley amazing
- 00:11:21success story they were positioned as
- 00:11:24Enterprise CRM they were the absolute
- 00:11:26Kings of Enterprise CRM we had a product
- 00:11:29that was also Enterprise CRM so we would
- 00:11:32position ourselves as Enterprise CRM and
- 00:11:34so not surprisingly we would get a
- 00:11:35meeting with a customer and the customer
- 00:11:37would say okay so your Enterprise CRM
- 00:11:40their Enterprise CRM how are you better
- 00:11:44and the answer that question was we
- 00:11:46simply weren't better than them they had
- 00:11:49we had you know we had 2 million Revenue
- 00:11:51they had two billion Revenue they had
- 00:11:53400 customers we had six they had
- 00:11:56thousands of employees I was employeed
- 00:11:5826 or something I mean we were just no
- 00:12:00comparison at all however we had a
- 00:12:05feature that they could not copy that
- 00:12:08was really interesting and we thought it
- 00:12:10would be really valuable to customers we
- 00:12:12didn't really understand the value of it
- 00:12:15for customers but we always showed it in
- 00:12:17meetings so we'd go in we show the thing
- 00:12:19and it was this neat feature and we say
- 00:12:21hey here's the feature it's really great
- 00:12:23and customers would look at us and say
- 00:12:24hey that looks cool what do we do with
- 00:12:27that and we'd say any anything you
- 00:12:29want and then the customer would say
- 00:12:32okay well that's confusing what else you
- 00:12:34got and then we'd say well you know
- 00:12:36really cheap if you want us to be really
- 00:12:37cheap because we're desperate to close
- 00:12:39business how we got out of that mess and
- 00:12:42eventually landed on positioning that
- 00:12:44was really good for us is we uh we sold
- 00:12:48a deal to an investment bank and it was
- 00:12:50kind of by accident we hired a sales rep
- 00:12:52that had a relationship with somebody
- 00:12:54very senior at the Investment Bank that
- 00:12:56we did a good pitch in there we showed
- 00:12:58them our magical
- 00:12:59feature and what that customer taught us
- 00:13:03is that feature was actually very very
- 00:13:06valuable to investment Banks and the way
- 00:13:08that they wanted to manage relationships
- 00:13:10inside the bank once we figured that out
- 00:13:13then it was like okay we actually have a
- 00:13:15feature that's really really valuable
- 00:13:17for a sub segment of this big market and
- 00:13:21we knew at the time Cel couldn't copy us
- 00:13:24on that feature so we narrowed down the
- 00:13:26positioning and instead of saying we
- 00:13:27were Enterprise CRM we were CRM for
- 00:13:30investment Banks and the great thing
- 00:13:32about that is that we never got into a
- 00:13:35real head-to-head against those guys
- 00:13:37again so we would come in and say hey
- 00:13:39we're CRM for investment Banks and the
- 00:13:41customer would say oh well wait doesn't
- 00:13:44seel do that like don't you guys compete
- 00:13:46with seel and we say ah seel we love
- 00:13:49those guys so big so smart so many
- 00:13:52people they're like the world's greatest
- 00:13:56general purpose CRM for like call
- 00:13:59centers and manufacturing plants and I
- 00:14:01don't know what but not you Wolf of Wall
- 00:14:03Street you need something special let me
- 00:14:04show you this thing and we would show
- 00:14:06them the thing and talk about the thing
- 00:14:08and so our plan was to absolutely
- 00:14:11dominate that space and then once we had
- 00:14:14dominated that we would be building the
- 00:14:16product and making the product more
- 00:14:17mature and our dominance and Investment
- 00:14:20Banking was going to allow us to get
- 00:14:21into retail banking so we were going to
- 00:14:24expand the market from there and then if
- 00:14:26we were successful in retail banking
- 00:14:28that would allow us to get into
- 00:14:29insurance at that point we would
- 00:14:31reposition ourselves as CRM for
- 00:14:33financial services if we were successful
- 00:14:36there then we'd be big enough and
- 00:14:38successful enough to challenge the
- 00:14:39market leader and take over and be
- 00:14:41Enterprise CRM which was still the
- 00:14:42long-term goal so is this the bo
- 00:14:45shrinking your target market or your
- 00:14:47ecosystem in a way in which you're going
- 00:14:49to compete to one where you have an
- 00:14:51advantage or an edge over somebody else
- 00:14:53and then expanding from there often in
- 00:14:56technology companies that's exactly what
- 00:14:58we're doing that seems yeah that seems
- 00:15:01like very intuitive why don't intuitive
- 00:15:04um there's a lot of reasons so the
- 00:15:07biggest one is people get very worried
- 00:15:09about what we call the addressable
- 00:15:11market so if I was trying to fund raise
- 00:15:15and went to an investor and said look I
- 00:15:18want to build a thing and it's just CRM
- 00:15:20for investment Banks the investor would
- 00:15:22say well how many investment banks are
- 00:15:24there in the world I need you to be a
- 00:15:26billion dollar business that's not a
- 00:15:28billion dollars business I don't know
- 00:15:29how you're going to do that uh so they
- 00:15:33for a investor you need to talk about
- 00:15:35the longterm story where do we want to
- 00:15:38be in 10 years where you know how do we
- 00:15:40what is our path to getting to be a
- 00:15:42billion dollars and if I look at that
- 00:15:44example I just gave you we had that
- 00:15:46long-term Vision we were going to be a
- 00:15:48billion dollar company eventually but
- 00:15:51for most companies when you start I'm
- 00:15:54not trying to do a billion dollars this
- 00:15:56year I'm trying to do a million I'm
- 00:15:57trying to close five deals I'm trying to
- 00:15:59close 10 deals and in order to close any
- 00:16:02business at all you have to be the best
- 00:16:05at something the customer is not going
- 00:16:07to come in and say you know there's
- 00:16:08these three options and I'll pick this
- 00:16:10one that's just okay no the customer
- 00:16:12says they want the best thing for their
- 00:16:14particular things so great positioning
- 00:16:17is all about defining where do you win
- 00:16:20like where are you the best in the world
- 00:16:23and even if that market is very small at
- 00:16:25the beginning you need to have a pathway
- 00:16:28to get to this bigger market so I'll win
- 00:16:30here then I'll win here then I'll win
- 00:16:32here and the market will expand so the
- 00:16:35vast majority of companies that we know
- 00:16:37did exactly that like Salesforce is
- 00:16:39actually a great example when they
- 00:16:42started out the Enterprise part of CRM
- 00:16:45was absolutely dominated by a big
- 00:16:47competitor so it didn't make sense for
- 00:16:49them to enter that market there instead
- 00:16:52they entered the market at the very
- 00:16:54bottom so they were selling to small
- 00:16:56medium businesses and they Secret Sauce
- 00:16:59so the thing they could do better than
- 00:17:00anyone else is they were one of the
- 00:17:02world's first SAS businesses so it was
- 00:17:05hosted in the cloud the value to the
- 00:17:08customer was that you could get CRM just
- 00:17:11like the big companies had even if you
- 00:17:14didn't have an IT department to babysit
- 00:17:16it so their big slogan of no software
- 00:17:19was all about that they were selling to
- 00:17:20Tiny companies that had no it Department
- 00:17:23that could never touch CRM and there was
- 00:17:25no competition there so it was very easy
- 00:17:28for them to go in and I was working at
- 00:17:30seil at the time and when they started
- 00:17:33down at the bottom we were like we don't
- 00:17:35care about that market we're not going
- 00:17:36to chase them down there we sell great
- 00:17:38big million-dollar Enterprise deals
- 00:17:40never read The inator Dilemma I guess we
- 00:17:43had no interest in that our goal was to
- 00:17:46just was to just sit in the rare Air at
- 00:17:48the very top of the stack and just sell
- 00:17:50all of that and that was it so of course
- 00:17:53what seil did was they started at the
- 00:17:55bottom and then crawled their way up
- 00:17:57that's fasc fting so basically to
- 00:18:00compete from a staffing point of view
- 00:18:02from a VC funding point of view you you
- 00:18:05sort of say our total Market is huge but
- 00:18:08then on a practical basis to develop a
- 00:18:11product right you have to start small in
- 00:18:13in a lend and expand sort of fashion
- 00:18:16generally if you look at most the vast
- 00:18:19majority of successful companies they've
- 00:18:22started by dominating a market that was
- 00:18:25too small for the market leader to care
- 00:18:27about mhm they dominated that market and
- 00:18:30then what they did was they proceeded to
- 00:18:31push the boundaries of that market and
- 00:18:34creep closer and closer and closer to
- 00:18:36whoever the market leader is what's the
- 00:18:39difference between B2B positioning and
- 00:18:41b2c like businessto business positioning
- 00:18:44versus business to Consumer positioning
- 00:18:46there's a lot of things that are
- 00:18:48different kind of if we think about the
- 00:18:51core of good positioning the core of
- 00:18:53good positioning is thinking about what
- 00:18:55your differentiated value is meaning the
- 00:18:59value you can deliver for a customer
- 00:19:01that no one else can and then great
- 00:19:03positioning puts that in a context that
- 00:19:06a customer can understand it if we think
- 00:19:08about value in B2B it's very different
- 00:19:12than value in consumer products value
- 00:19:15can be all kinds of things in consumer
- 00:19:17products I you know I might buy shoes
- 00:19:19because I just like the color green man
- 00:19:23or I'm buying consumer things because I
- 00:19:26think it makes me look rich or it's
- 00:19:27going to me a date or there's a lot of
- 00:19:30different things that are valuable in
- 00:19:32consumer in busines to business it's
- 00:19:35very different in businesses to business
- 00:19:37typically there isn't one person buying
- 00:19:40typically there's a a group of people
- 00:19:43the average B2B deal there's 5 to 11
- 00:19:47stakeholders in the deal so if I'm
- 00:19:49buying accounting software my boss comes
- 00:19:53to me and says hey I don't like the
- 00:19:54accounting software we have right now
- 00:19:55you go buy us some that's terrify Ying
- 00:19:59my neck is on the line if I make a bad
- 00:20:02choice here I look bad in front of my
- 00:20:03boss the end users don't like it maybe
- 00:20:06the software screws up I get passed over
- 00:20:08from promotion I might actually get
- 00:20:10fired so there's stakes in a B2B
- 00:20:14purchase decision the way we think about
- 00:20:16value is also really different we I
- 00:20:19can't go to my boss and say I just like
- 00:20:21the vibe of this software you know I
- 00:20:24have to make a business case to my boss
- 00:20:27for why we should buy it and in
- 00:20:29businesses I mean we kind of only have
- 00:20:31two things we're either helping you make
- 00:20:32money or we're helping you save money
- 00:20:34and that's about it MH so you know I
- 00:20:38might make a very irrational decision
- 00:20:40about a product and often we do make
- 00:20:43very irrational decisions even in B2B
- 00:20:46about a product but I can't say that to
- 00:20:49my boss right I still have to go to my
- 00:20:51boss and say Here's why we picked it
- 00:20:53here's the list of reasons there needs
- 00:20:55to be some justification that's exactly
- 00:20:57it it's explainable to somebody else
- 00:20:59exactly so we think a lot about you know
- 00:21:01in in consumer consumer marketers talk a
- 00:21:04lot about emotion invoking emotion in
- 00:21:07B2B the granddaddy of emotions is fear
- 00:21:11fear making a poor choice fear looking
- 00:21:14bad in front of my boss fear getting
- 00:21:16fired like fear of making a mistake
- 00:21:19drives a lot of decisions in B to be
- 00:21:23this is why incumbents like whoever's
- 00:21:25the leader in the market has such an
- 00:21:28advantage in B2B technology because it
- 00:21:30is the safe decision nobody is going to
- 00:21:33get fired for picking Salesforce at this
- 00:21:36point they have double the market share
- 00:21:38of their closest competitor you can go
- 00:21:40to your boss and say look I looked at
- 00:21:43all the other options but I picked
- 00:21:45Salesforce because everybody uses
- 00:21:46Salesforce they have a big ecosystem
- 00:21:48they have the best this the best that
- 00:21:50they're the biggest it's the safe choice
- 00:21:52to make if you're trying to compete
- 00:21:54against Salesforce that's really hard
- 00:21:56gravity to pull against it's very risky
- 00:21:58to pick you if the choice is you versus
- 00:22:02Salesforce or an established market
- 00:22:04leader when you think about consumer
- 00:22:07positioning I'm really interested and I
- 00:22:09I know this isn't your sort of area of
- 00:22:11expertise but when you walk into like a
- 00:22:14Louis Vuitton or Herz how do you think
- 00:22:17about positioning such that they can
- 00:22:20charge I don't know 30 $40,000 for a34
- 00:22:24$40,000 is the point right I'm not
- 00:22:28buying that bag because I think it's
- 00:22:32$30,000 better than a bag that costs 20
- 00:22:34bucks although it probably is finely
- 00:22:37crafted and all that sort of things a
- 00:22:39lot of times I think luxury goods are
- 00:22:42really about a a signal to the market
- 00:22:45it's like I'm a rich successful person
- 00:22:48um that has made enough money that I can
- 00:22:50carry a Louis vuon bag or wear a Rolex
- 00:22:52watch or whatever luxury things are it's
- 00:22:57outside of my wheelhouse but you know
- 00:23:00again when we look at consumer stuff
- 00:23:02value comes in all sorts of forms like
- 00:23:07we buy things in very rational ways in
- 00:23:10consumer products um we're we're also IR
- 00:23:13rational in B2B too but most that
- 00:23:15irrationality is around fear it's like I
- 00:23:18just don't want to make a bad choice
- 00:23:19here and look bad in front of my boss or
- 00:23:21do something that the companies all mad
- 00:23:22at me about later the thing we have in
- 00:23:25B2B that's actually a real problem is
- 00:23:28it's so scary to purchase something in
- 00:23:30B2B that 50 to 70% of the time a deal
- 00:23:35that gets started actually ends in no
- 00:23:38decision and the no decision isn't they
- 00:23:42they voted to stay with the current
- 00:23:43product that they have it's usually no
- 00:23:45decision because everything looked the
- 00:23:48same I couldn't confidently make a
- 00:23:50decision that I was sure I wasn't going
- 00:23:51to get in trouble for so it's easier to
- 00:23:54just go back to your boss and say you
- 00:23:55know what now's not a good time let's
- 00:23:56buy the accounting package next year you
- 00:23:59know we don't want we don't need to get
- 00:24:00into this now and the person who's been
- 00:24:02tasked with making that decision is just
- 00:24:04crossing their fingers that they don't
- 00:24:06have to be on the hook to make the
- 00:24:07decision next year when the decision
- 00:24:09comes up again like okay let's go and
- 00:24:10look again they just don't want to be
- 00:24:12the person that has to stick their neck
- 00:24:14out to advocate for something which is
- 00:24:17totally different from how we buy a pack
- 00:24:21of gum or buy fizzy water at the corner
- 00:24:23store or buy a purse the downside there
- 00:24:27is really small
- 00:24:28and at work the Downs side's huge and
- 00:24:29the UPS's like nothing right so if you
- 00:24:32advocate for a different product that's
- 00:24:34outside of standard best practices or
- 00:24:36standard industry standard then if
- 00:24:39you're successful everybody forgets that
- 00:24:42you advocated for it but if it fails
- 00:24:45mean cases exactly in rare cases you'll
- 00:24:49see Senior Executives at companies where
- 00:24:53their role is to change things so their
- 00:24:56role is transformation in some way
- 00:24:58Innovation transformation or a digital
- 00:25:00transformation you see a lot of
- 00:25:02companies right now that have been
- 00:25:04tasked by the CEO were there are teams
- 00:25:07that have been tasked by the CEO to
- 00:25:09figure this AI thing out and make sure
- 00:25:11we're not falling behind yeah in those
- 00:25:14cases the person driving that program if
- 00:25:17it is successful is going to get a
- 00:25:20promotion they're going to get a raise
- 00:25:22they you know it's going to look really
- 00:25:23good on them if they can successfully do
- 00:25:26it if it's not success uccessful then
- 00:25:28they're a
- 00:25:29bum would you say the biggest mistake
- 00:25:31then that you see especially with
- 00:25:33software products is competing and
- 00:25:35positioning in too big of a market
- 00:25:38that's one of the things I think a lot
- 00:25:40of times if you look at the positioning
- 00:25:43that the company
- 00:25:44has the biggest mistake is not
- 00:25:47deliberately positioning I think a lot
- 00:25:49of companies start looking at their
- 00:25:52product in isolation almost like there
- 00:25:55are no competitors you see it a a lot in
- 00:25:57the way companies do sales pitches like
- 00:26:00they'll walk in and they'll give this
- 00:26:01sales pitch they'll they'll talk about
- 00:26:03the product we have this great feature
- 00:26:05that great feature this great feature
- 00:26:07it's amazing you should buy us but the
- 00:26:10buyer on the other side of that
- 00:26:12conversation they're terrified of making
- 00:26:14a bad choice and they're sitting there
- 00:26:16going well that's all great but I just
- 00:26:19had three other sales calls with your
- 00:26:20competitors some of that stuff sounds
- 00:26:23the same and so we walk into these
- 00:26:26situations as vendors in enal thinking
- 00:26:28that the answer the question we're
- 00:26:30trying to answer is why pick us but the
- 00:26:33real question we have to answer is why
- 00:26:35pick us over the other guys and I think
- 00:26:38most companies don't really wrestle with
- 00:26:40that they don't sit down put themselves
- 00:26:42in the shoes of a buyer recognize how
- 00:26:46hard it is to make a purchase decision
- 00:26:49and think like how do we position versus
- 00:26:51everybody else well it's really easy to
- 00:26:53go with the incumbent the
- 00:26:55largest and then you have to basically
- 00:26:58get people out of that default some
- 00:27:00exactly exactly that's fascinating can
- 00:27:02you tell me about a time when
- 00:27:04repositioning a product failed and what
- 00:27:07happened yeah so I worked at a company
- 00:27:12where uh we were building a thing the
- 00:27:14original conception of this thing was
- 00:27:17that it was a database but it was a
- 00:27:19really fancy database that could do a
- 00:27:22certain kind of query really really
- 00:27:25really fast it was originally developed
- 00:27:27for bank and there were a set of queries
- 00:27:30that the bank did that were so difficult
- 00:27:34to process that they would run them on
- 00:27:38Friday and the query took all weekend to
- 00:27:41get the answer back so you're asking the
- 00:27:43DAT of this question and it took three
- 00:27:44days to get the answer back so these
- 00:27:46folks couple Super Genius database guys
- 00:27:50came up with this database fix that
- 00:27:52problem and it could run that query in
- 00:27:55seconds so it's amazing aming technology
- 00:27:58fantastic they got patents on it
- 00:28:01nobody's seen a database like this
- 00:28:02before really really in Innovative so
- 00:28:05the original conception of this thing
- 00:28:07was that it was a
- 00:28:09database uh I joined as the head of
- 00:28:12marketing and
- 00:28:14we were having a terrible time selling
- 00:28:17the positioning was terrible like nobody
- 00:28:19wanted a new database there's an
- 00:28:21absolute Giant in that market they're
- 00:28:22called Oracle everybody's standard on
- 00:28:24Oracle everybody gets certified on
- 00:28:26Oracle don't want to have multiple
- 00:28:28database solutions to do something so we
- 00:28:31would come in and say we've got this
- 00:28:32Nifty new database and the customers
- 00:28:34would say well that's you know we're
- 00:28:37Oracle shop like we're not married to
- 00:28:38Oracle we don't think Oracle is the best
- 00:28:40thing but we can't bring in another
- 00:28:42platform we eventually repositioned it
- 00:28:44as a data warehouse which is a specific
- 00:28:48purpose-built kind of database for doing
- 00:28:50analytics which is exactly what we're
- 00:28:51doing when we're doing this big query so
- 00:28:53we did that repositioning and it was
- 00:28:55much much better much better better
- 00:28:57first call was better much better than
- 00:29:00we were doing before the problem was
- 00:29:03when we looked at we had an assumption
- 00:29:06that if you had these queries that took
- 00:29:08three days you would want to be able to
- 00:29:10do them in 10 seconds versus 3 days and
- 00:29:13it turned out that assumption was wrong
- 00:29:15so when we went to the other Banks and
- 00:29:17said hey you're doing this thing and it
- 00:29:19it takes three days and you could use
- 00:29:22this thing and it would take 3 seconds
- 00:29:23and they're like it's okay nothing's
- 00:29:25nobody's really doing anything over the
- 00:29:27weekend anyway we don't need the answer
- 00:29:29right away so then we had this question
- 00:29:31well who needs the answer right away and
- 00:29:34we had never asked ourselves that
- 00:29:36question like our whole value
- 00:29:37proposition is speed doing this query
- 00:29:40fast it turned out the only customers
- 00:29:44that needed the answer right away were
- 00:29:46customers that were doing the query be
- 00:29:49for customer service so their customer
- 00:29:52calls in they're on the phone and
- 00:29:54they're like hey I need to know this
- 00:29:55thing well I don't want to wait 3 days
- 00:29:57to get the answer they want to do it in
- 00:29:59seconds and then we looked at the
- 00:30:02universe of companies that had data of a
- 00:30:05scale where our thing was appropriate
- 00:30:07and needed this query answered to do
- 00:30:10customer service and there was literally
- 00:30:1210 companies on the planet and that was
- 00:30:14it so the addressable Market was so
- 00:30:17small that it wasn't a viable business
- 00:30:19so we had essentially built a product
- 00:30:23that nobody wanted it was neat it was
- 00:30:25really Innovative it was really cool
- 00:30:27but there was no market for it didn't
- 00:30:29solve a problem that anybody really had
- 00:30:31so if you're a startup you have limited
- 00:30:33resources and how do you go about
- 00:30:35identifying those pain points then to
- 00:30:37better position your product I mean the
- 00:30:40idea behind the famous book on this is
- 00:30:43uh Eric Reese Lean Startup and the the
- 00:30:47way the Lean Startup describes this is
- 00:30:50you should be out doing something called
- 00:30:51customer Discovery so before you write
- 00:30:54anything you should be out interviewing
- 00:30:56customer customers or potential
- 00:30:58customers and
- 00:31:00validating the assumptions that you have
- 00:31:03about this Market is this a thing that
- 00:31:05people would pay for how many how much
- 00:31:07would you pay for it are there a big
- 00:31:09enough group of people that have this
- 00:31:11pain to solve it and in a perfect world
- 00:31:15that's what we would all be doing but
- 00:31:17often products just don't happen that
- 00:31:18way like often products you know like
- 00:31:21this this particular company they had
- 00:31:23built it custom they had done the deal
- 00:31:25with the bank in such a way that they
- 00:31:27owned the IP it seemed like a good idea
- 00:31:29they had a bunch of assumptions baked in
- 00:31:31there they never tested those
- 00:31:32assumptions until later but it was good
- 00:31:35enough to go raise money they just went
- 00:31:36and raised some money and well okay now
- 00:31:37we're going we're doing a thing so I
- 00:31:40don't think a lot of startups do enough
- 00:31:42customer Discovery at the beginning to
- 00:31:45make sure that they've got a thing that
- 00:31:46people really want the second thing is
- 00:31:48that even if you do do customer
- 00:31:50Discovery it's really hard it's really
- 00:31:53difficult customers will sometimes tell
- 00:31:55you things that aren't true
- 00:31:57um or they'll say yes yes we would buy
- 00:31:59that and we would buy it for this much
- 00:32:01but by the time you've actually built
- 00:32:02the thing and you have a prototype of
- 00:32:04the thing you get it in customers hands
- 00:32:05of like actually there's a different way
- 00:32:06to do this and we decided to do it this
- 00:32:08different way or there's you know that
- 00:32:10customers have lots of options so
- 00:32:12startups are very hard because we're
- 00:32:14we're dealing with uncertainty we're
- 00:32:17dealing with a certain amount of
- 00:32:19assumptions our assumptions may prove to
- 00:32:20be wrong and we have to be able to move
- 00:32:23and pivot and look for other things and
- 00:32:26sometimes our first crack it it isn't
- 00:32:27going to work then we're going to have
- 00:32:28to go to the draw back to the drawing
- 00:32:30board and kind of invent something else
- 00:32:32and see if that works how do you
- 00:32:34position your product on a page a lot of
- 00:32:36B2B starts with a sales rep or somebody
- 00:32:40looking at a page for a product how do
- 00:32:42you position that product within you
- 00:32:45have probably I don't know 10 seconds to
- 00:32:46get somebody's attention yeah 10 seconds
- 00:32:48to get somebody's attention so the way I
- 00:32:50think about positioning is this way um I
- 00:32:53like to position I like to break
- 00:32:55positioning up into a set of components
- 00:32:57so the component pieces of positioning
- 00:33:00are competitive Alternatives so if you
- 00:33:02didn't exist what would a customer do
- 00:33:05and then we need to understand what
- 00:33:06makes us different which is our
- 00:33:08differentiated capabilities like what do
- 00:33:10we got that the Alternatives don't have
- 00:33:12thing that we really need to understand
- 00:33:14is why those features matter so what is
- 00:33:16the value that those features can
- 00:33:18deliver for a business and you mean the
- 00:33:20features else you have that nobody else
- 00:33:22that no one else has so that's our
- 00:33:23differentiated value it says look we can
- 00:33:26do this for your business and no one
- 00:33:27else can do it and then the next thing
- 00:33:30we have to understand is well who cares
- 00:33:31a lot about that because just because we
- 00:33:33have that thing if only three people on
- 00:33:35the planet care about that that's not a
- 00:33:36viable business so we need to understand
- 00:33:38that so what is it what are the
- 00:33:41characteristics of a Target company that
- 00:33:43make them really really care a lot about
- 00:33:45the thing that only we can
- 00:33:46do once we have all of that then we need
- 00:33:49to build messaging around that so if we
- 00:33:52think about typical homepage of a
- 00:33:55product it needs to communicate
- 00:33:57what is the value that we can deliver
- 00:33:59that no one else can and is this for me
- 00:34:02me as the browser the person that's
- 00:34:04there so I need to communicate who's
- 00:34:06this for why is it different why is it
- 00:34:09better and that's really hard to do on
- 00:34:12one page you don't have a lot of copy to
- 00:34:14do that you don't have a lot of ways to
- 00:34:16do that but that's what we really have
- 00:34:17to focus on the biggest mistake I see
- 00:34:20technology companies making is they're
- 00:34:24so certain that the that their features
- 00:34:27valuable and people will just understand
- 00:34:29what the value of those features are
- 00:34:31they're talking about the features but
- 00:34:32they're not talking about why the
- 00:34:33features matter so they're they're
- 00:34:35talking you they're not talking about
- 00:34:36the benefit exactly so if I use the
- 00:34:39example of the CRM company I was talking
- 00:34:41about earlier we had a feature we just
- 00:34:44assumed that customers would look at
- 00:34:46that feature and know what the value was
- 00:34:48but they didn't they didn't and so we
- 00:34:51all we did was talk about the feature
- 00:34:52we're like look you can model
- 00:34:53relationships this way and they were
- 00:34:55like but why why do I actually want to
- 00:34:58do that and what's that's what's that
- 00:35:00good for we're like what's good for
- 00:35:01anything you want to do with it like you
- 00:35:03figure it out and I think in technology
- 00:35:06companies we get we're very technical
- 00:35:09people we know a lot about technology we
- 00:35:11get so close to it we just assume that
- 00:35:14the customer can make the translation
- 00:35:16from feature to Value but a lot of times
- 00:35:18they can't and in particularly with
- 00:35:20something that's really Innovative
- 00:35:22really new they've never seen it before
- 00:35:24we're going to have to help them
- 00:35:26understand
- 00:35:27why those features are important if we
- 00:35:29think about a lot of consumer Tech we've
- 00:35:31been trained how to do this like if I
- 00:35:34tell you I've got a phone on my camera
- 00:35:37and it's 2,000 megapixels you know 2,000
- 00:35:40megapixels is way better than 100
- 00:35:42megapixels you've been
- 00:35:44trained we know that but the first time
- 00:35:47anybody ever talked to you about
- 00:35:49megapixels you had no idea what a
- 00:35:50megapixel even was companies had to
- 00:35:52teach you why that was important it's
- 00:35:54interesting because that's sort of gone
- 00:35:56away at this Point like nobody's asking
- 00:35:58how many megapixels are in their phone
- 00:36:00camera at one point it was like big
- 00:36:01differentiator but that's a good that's
- 00:36:03a good um sort of segue into my next
- 00:36:06question which is how has the digital
- 00:36:09transformation over the last 25 30 years
- 00:36:12changed positioning I think the
- 00:36:15fundamentals of positioning haven't
- 00:36:16changed at all is is my opinion if you
- 00:36:20read the original book on positioning
- 00:36:22was called positioning the battle for
- 00:36:24your mind by these guys Reas and trout
- 00:36:26they came up with the concept they
- 00:36:28published a book in
- 00:36:301982 and if you read that book the first
- 00:36:33chapter talks about why do we have to
- 00:36:36worry about positioning why is
- 00:36:37positioning important and they talked
- 00:36:40about how it's important
- 00:36:42because previous to that in any given
- 00:36:46Market category there were only a
- 00:36:47handful of products so consumers just
- 00:36:50made a choice between the two or three
- 00:36:52choices that they had but it wasn't all
- 00:36:54that important for companies to really
- 00:36:56differentiate between those choices but
- 00:36:58in 1982 oh my gosh we have so many
- 00:37:01choices now positioning is really
- 00:37:03important because the customer has
- 00:37:06thousands of choices hundreds of choices
- 00:37:08now if we look at the difference between
- 00:37:111982 to
- 00:37:15now that has just exploded like I think
- 00:37:18it's much more important now to really
- 00:37:21establish that position it's much harder
- 00:37:24now to stand out in a world where we're
- 00:37:28exposed to millions of advertising
- 00:37:30messages a day like think about digital
- 00:37:32stuff I am constantly bombarded with
- 00:37:35messages from companies I cannot avoid
- 00:37:37it it's Millions a day compared to
- 00:37:411982 so in order for customers to really
- 00:37:44stick out sorry in order for companies
- 00:37:47to really stand out in a market that is
- 00:37:50so crowded and so overwhelmed with
- 00:37:53messages from Brands we're going to have
- 00:37:55to get really SU syn on what is this
- 00:37:58thing what is the value of this thing
- 00:38:01who is it for how is it different from
- 00:38:03the other things in the market and we're
- 00:38:04going to have to be so clear about that
- 00:38:06to break out from the noise and why you
- 00:38:08should trust us because if we're a small
- 00:38:11company we' got like five employees and
- 00:38:13we're competing with Salesforce but we
- 00:38:15have one particular feature that they
- 00:38:16don't have and we have our our sort of
- 00:38:18positioning in our niche market right
- 00:38:20well now there's still a brand issue
- 00:38:22because it's like nobody's ever heard of
- 00:38:23you a lot of this stuff so we think
- 00:38:27about so if I go back to that example of
- 00:38:28that CRM company I was in the great
- 00:38:32thing about that was we managed to
- 00:38:35establish ourself in this little bubble
- 00:38:38of investment
- 00:38:39banking and once we had done two
- 00:38:42customers in invest Investment Banking
- 00:38:44we were the kings of investment banking
- 00:38:46with only two customers because we could
- 00:38:49walk in and say well you know Goldman
- 00:38:51Sachs and Marl Lynch what do they got
- 00:38:54they got a bunch of call centers and a
- 00:38:56bunch of manufacturing like and so we
- 00:38:58could put a circle around it and kind of
- 00:39:01make like the rest of the market doesn't
- 00:39:03matter to you investment banker like you
- 00:39:05don't want the world's greatest general
- 00:39:07purpose CRM you want the world's
- 00:39:08greatest CRM for people like you that's
- 00:39:11how we win in this thing if I walk in
- 00:39:13and say we're just CRM we're CRM for
- 00:39:16everybody and we're just the greatest
- 00:39:17CRM ever nobody wants that it's like
- 00:39:19you're you're changing the frame almost
- 00:39:21taking a a photogra like there's this
- 00:39:24great quote about you know what makes a
- 00:39:26great photograph as knowing where to
- 00:39:28stand and it's like you're basically
- 00:39:30almost picking somebody up and you're
- 00:39:32being like look at this way yeah this is
- 00:39:34the this is the Warren Buffett quote you
- 00:39:36know how do you beat Bobby Fisher you
- 00:39:37play them at any game but chess how do
- 00:39:40you go about evaluating product
- 00:39:43positioning this is an interesting
- 00:39:45question people want me to look at their
- 00:39:49website and tell me whether or not their
- 00:39:51positioning is good and in B2B that is
- 00:39:54almost impossible almost impossible so
- 00:39:58you have this thing it it serves a
- 00:40:00market I am not the buyer for that thing
- 00:40:03so I could look at your website and say
- 00:40:05I I don't have a clue what this is all
- 00:40:06about but the thing you sell is for
- 00:40:09airplane mechanics it's fine if I don't
- 00:40:11have a clue about that it needs to
- 00:40:13resonate with airplane
- 00:40:15mechanics so you can't tell just using
- 00:40:18you know what I would call the
- 00:40:19grandmother test you know would your
- 00:40:21grandmother understand this well unless
- 00:40:23you're selling a grandmothers it doesn't
- 00:40:24matter if the grandmother understands it
- 00:40:26so some people will say well we need to
- 00:40:28dumb this down and we need to have it so
- 00:40:30that anybody understands it I super
- 00:40:31disagree with that in B2B if I'm selling
- 00:40:34a specialized thing to specialized
- 00:40:36buyers it just needs to resonate with
- 00:40:38them it's okay if it doesn't resonate
- 00:40:40with your grandmother what it does mean
- 00:40:42is if we're trying to assess the
- 00:40:44positioning what really matters is when
- 00:40:48we are when we have a brand new prospect
- 00:40:53that comes in that doesn't really know
- 00:40:55too much about us how long does it take
- 00:40:58us before it clicks and they're like oh
- 00:41:00I get it oh I get why you're different
- 00:41:02oh I get why that's good oh I get why in
- 00:41:06my career so I used to be an in-house
- 00:41:08vice president of marketing and so the
- 00:41:11latter part of my career I was very
- 00:41:13focused on positioning so if the CEO
- 00:41:15hired me they hired me because I could
- 00:41:16talk intelligently about how we were
- 00:41:18going to fix this positioning I would
- 00:41:20come on board and what everybody would
- 00:41:21want me to do is just run campaigns
- 00:41:24April make the revenue go up to the
- 00:41:25right
- 00:41:26and I was always worried about running
- 00:41:28campaigns on weak positioning because
- 00:41:30it's a bit like pouring water into the
- 00:41:32Leaky bucket and so what I would do to
- 00:41:35assess the positioning whether it was
- 00:41:36good or not is I would walk over to
- 00:41:38sales and there would be people doing
- 00:41:41sales people doing first calls with
- 00:41:43customers and you hear it in a first
- 00:41:46call and it sounds like this your sales
- 00:41:48rep is doing a great job they have a
- 00:41:50pitch customers there and the sales rep
- 00:41:53has has a pitch that's maybe a dozen
- 00:41:55slides long and they're saying okay
- 00:41:58here's what we are here's what we do we
- 00:42:00do this thing they're getting into the
- 00:42:01pitch and you'll see the customer if
- 00:42:03it's a video call you'll see the
- 00:42:05customer and they'll be making this
- 00:42:06confused face
- 00:42:08like and what'll happen is and they're
- 00:42:10not saying too much and a good rep will
- 00:42:13stop and be like are there any questions
- 00:42:15like are you with me still and the
- 00:42:17customer will go yeah yeah yeah just
- 00:42:20back it up can you just go back to the
- 00:42:21beginning back it up and go back to the
- 00:42:23beginning like pitch it to me again and
- 00:42:25and there's this fundamental disconnect
- 00:42:27like I don't even know what bucket to
- 00:42:29put this thing in like is it a is it a
- 00:42:32database is it a business intelligence
- 00:42:34tool is it a thing like you hav't framed
- 00:42:36it figure you know and so there's
- 00:42:38something in that positioning that is
- 00:42:41just confusing the heck out of the
- 00:42:42customer that's the most common sign you
- 00:42:44see is the customer looking at it and
- 00:42:46they're like I just can't figure out
- 00:42:47what this thing is the second common
- 00:42:50sign you'll see with weak positioning is
- 00:42:52the customer thinks they've got it
- 00:42:54figured out um but they're actually
- 00:42:56comparing you to something that you
- 00:42:58don't actually compete with so you'll
- 00:42:59get to slide three or four and the
- 00:43:01customer will say yay I get it you're
- 00:43:02just like Salesforce and you're nothing
- 00:43:04like Salesforce you don't compete in
- 00:43:05that market you're not that and then the
- 00:43:07rep is like no no no no no let me go
- 00:43:08back I'll go back to the beginning we'll
- 00:43:10do this again um so you'll hear that a
- 00:43:13lot the other thing you'll hear and this
- 00:43:15is almost the most terrifying one is in
- 00:43:17these early conversations with a
- 00:43:19prospect the prospect will say I get it
- 00:43:22I get what you are I get who you compete
- 00:43:25with I just just don't really get why we
- 00:43:27would pay money for that can I just do
- 00:43:30that with a spreadsheet can I just do
- 00:43:32that with my accounting package could I
- 00:43:34just hire an intern to do that why would
- 00:43:36I pay money to do that so they kind of
- 00:43:39understand the product but again they
- 00:43:40don't understand the value of it why
- 00:43:43would I give you money in exchange for
- 00:43:44that thing who's in charge of
- 00:43:45positioning at a company good question
- 00:43:48this has traditionally been seen as a
- 00:43:51marketing function um and even more
- 00:43:54specifically in tech companies we often
- 00:43:56say this is a product marketing function
- 00:43:59but I don't believe that I think that's
- 00:44:02not the right way to think about it if
- 00:44:04we really think about what we're doing
- 00:44:06in positioning is we're getting really
- 00:44:08tight on who's our competitor how are we
- 00:44:11different what is the value we can
- 00:44:13provide to them to the customer and who
- 00:44:16exactly are those customers if we made a
- 00:44:19change in that that would be a big
- 00:44:21change in the business if I think about
- 00:44:24again my CRM example if we switch from
- 00:44:27being general purpose Enterprise CRM to
- 00:44:30CRM for investment Banks that's a that's
- 00:44:33a whole different company yeah so I
- 00:44:35don't think
- 00:44:37marketing has first of all they're not
- 00:44:40talking to customers every day the way
- 00:44:42sales
- 00:44:44is uh they don't necessarily understand
- 00:44:48the differentiation amongst competitors
- 00:44:51the way the product team would and sure
- 00:44:54as heck the CEO is going to have
- 00:44:56something to say about where we're
- 00:44:59selling and how we win in the market so
- 00:45:02in the work that I do with companies
- 00:45:03with positioning we do it with a cross
- 00:45:05functional team so we bring together
- 00:45:09product marketing sales customer success
- 00:45:12support and we bring everybody together
- 00:45:15and everybody comes with what they
- 00:45:18understand about customers and how we
- 00:45:19win and we work through the positioning
- 00:45:22together as a group exercise now
- 00:45:25somebody needs to be the steward or the
- 00:45:27police of that positioning once we've
- 00:45:30set it to make sure that we are
- 00:45:32consistent about that and the way we're
- 00:45:33using it in marketing and the way we're
- 00:45:35using it in sales and that's typically
- 00:45:36marketing that does that I also think
- 00:45:40it's good to have somebody be the person
- 00:45:43that puts their hand up and says you
- 00:45:45know what things are changing in the
- 00:45:46market we we maybe need to come back
- 00:45:49together and check in on that
- 00:45:50positioning but I don't think that
- 00:45:52marketing should be able to change
- 00:45:54positioning or look at positioning or do
- 00:45:56it on their own they could try but it
- 00:45:58won't stick because sales won't believe
- 00:46:00in it CEO won't believe in it what we
- 00:46:02actually need is a cross functional team
- 00:46:04to get together and look at it make some
- 00:46:07decisions get everybody in agreement and
- 00:46:08alignment on it and then we can all go
- 00:46:10execute on it and in our respective
- 00:46:13departments and then marketing can be
- 00:46:15the steward of here's the positioning
- 00:46:18here's how we Define it this is the
- 00:46:20messaging that comes out of that
- 00:46:21positioning and then marketing be the
- 00:46:23person to put their hand up and say you
- 00:46:25know what this big acquisition just
- 00:46:26happened in our market and we might need
- 00:46:28to step back and look relook at the
- 00:46:29positioning it's interesting that you
- 00:46:31you say that when you're talking about a
- 00:46:33salesperson and the first call I was
- 00:46:35thinking oh like if things don't go as
- 00:46:38planned the salesperson points to
- 00:46:40marketing marketing points to the sales
- 00:46:42person everybody points to product and
- 00:46:44and but you even expanded this so you
- 00:46:46have a cross functional team of sales
- 00:46:48marketing product customer success
- 00:46:51support and then you have the CEO
- 00:46:52involvement at some point in there too
- 00:46:54exactly and when things are going well
- 00:46:56everybody is a winner and everybody's
- 00:46:58responsible for success but the minute
- 00:47:01you have a problem everybody starts
- 00:47:03pointing the finger at everybody else
- 00:47:05how do you determine when that's a
- 00:47:06positioning problem
- 00:47:08versus a larger problem it's interesting
- 00:47:12because you know I do this as work as a
- 00:47:14consultant and sometimes companies will
- 00:47:16call me and they think they have a
- 00:47:18positioning problem and then I have a
- 00:47:20conversation with them and I'm like I
- 00:47:21don't actually think that's a
- 00:47:22positioning problem because there's lots
- 00:47:24of reasons businesses aren't successful
- 00:47:25F and positioning is just one of them so
- 00:47:28typically so sometimes companies will
- 00:47:30come to me and they'll say you know what
- 00:47:33every company we talk to loves us if we
- 00:47:37can get them in a meeting we close all
- 00:47:39that business that tells me the
- 00:47:41positioning is good you're just not
- 00:47:43getting enough meetings you're just
- 00:47:44doing a terrible job at lean generation
- 00:47:46you should go fix that you just need to
- 00:47:49get more at bats uh sometimes what you
- 00:47:52have is a sales execution problem like
- 00:47:54there's something in the way you're
- 00:47:55executing in sales it isn't working so
- 00:47:58my test is often like so first of all do
- 00:48:01you have good happy customers that stick
- 00:48:04with you and love you and are
- 00:48:05referenceable and whatever most of the
- 00:48:07companies that come to me and say yes
- 00:48:08yes we have that okay do you have
- 00:48:12confusion when at the beginning of your
- 00:48:15sales process where they come in and
- 00:48:17they just don't get it that gap between
- 00:48:21what a customer knows and what a
- 00:48:23prospect knows we can close that Gap
- 00:48:25with good
- 00:48:26positioning what role does storytelling
- 00:48:29play in all of
- 00:48:31this storytelling is one of these things
- 00:48:33marketers think a lot about storytelling
- 00:48:35and obsess a lot about storytelling
- 00:48:38particularly on the consumer side
- 00:48:41businessto business marketers like to
- 00:48:43think about storytelling I don't think a
- 00:48:45lot of B2B companies are doing an
- 00:48:46amazing job at storytelling what's
- 00:48:48really funny about that if you go over
- 00:48:50to sales sales doesn't care about
- 00:48:51storytelling they never talk about
- 00:48:53storytelling and yet they're the ones
- 00:48:55that that actually are face to face with
- 00:48:57a customer and if anyone should be
- 00:48:58telling a story maybe it's your sales
- 00:49:00team most of the storytelling stuff that
- 00:49:02you see or at least what I learned as a
- 00:49:05marketer going through if you go to
- 00:49:07marketing school and learn storytelling
- 00:49:09a lot of what you'll see is this hero's
- 00:49:11journey structure for storytelling which
- 00:49:14um is very common in entertainment it's
- 00:49:16the way most movies are written a lot of
- 00:49:18stories are written with this hero's
- 00:49:20journey so in B2B
- 00:49:23storytelling we think about the hero as
- 00:49:25the C customer so the customer has a
- 00:49:27problem they embark on this Quest they
- 00:49:29meet a guide that's us we're the guide
- 00:49:31and we give them a plan and we help them
- 00:49:33be successful and avoid defeat as we
- 00:49:35have this hero's journey the problem
- 00:49:37with that storytelling Arc is there's
- 00:49:41kind of no competitor in there and if we
- 00:49:44think about what a buyer is actually
- 00:49:46trying to figure out is why pick you
- 00:49:48over the other guys a hero's journey
- 00:49:51doesn't really give us an arc to do that
- 00:49:53in the work that I do with c customers
- 00:49:56we start with positioning so we get
- 00:49:58really clear on what's the value we can
- 00:50:01deliver that no one else can who are the
- 00:50:03customers that really care about that
- 00:50:06and then we want to build a story around
- 00:50:09that the story that we're trying to tell
- 00:50:12needs to answer this question why pick
- 00:50:14us over the other guys so in that
- 00:50:16storytelling framework we need to we
- 00:50:19need to have a spot in that framework to
- 00:50:21paint a picture of the whole market and
- 00:50:23then show where we fit and where
- 00:50:25everybody fits so we shouldn't actually
- 00:50:27be just talking about us we should be
- 00:50:29talking about the alternative approaches
- 00:50:31to the problem which means we're going
- 00:50:32to talk about competitors or at least
- 00:50:35the approach that the competitors
- 00:50:37take in the work I do we take the
- 00:50:41position we translate it into a sales
- 00:50:43pitch that sales pitch has a
- 00:50:46storytelling
- 00:50:48structure that starts with a
- 00:50:50conversation around the market so we'll
- 00:50:53talk about look
- 00:50:56we look at this Market in a different
- 00:50:58way than our competitors and because we
- 00:51:01look at it in a different way we've
- 00:51:02built the product in a different way and
- 00:51:05you're you're a customer you have you
- 00:51:07have lots of choices there's other
- 00:51:09products that you could buy there's
- 00:51:10other approaches you could take to this
- 00:51:12problem let's talk about that we think
- 00:51:13about this all day we have opinions
- 00:51:15about it we want to hear what you have
- 00:51:17to say about it too so this is the way
- 00:51:19we look at it you could do it this way
- 00:51:21this way or this way and here's the
- 00:51:22pluses and minuses of these different
- 00:51:24ways of solving this problem
- 00:51:26and this is a conversation with the
- 00:51:27customer more than me telling the
- 00:51:29customer stuff but at the same time I'm
- 00:51:32teaching the customer about what we
- 00:51:35think is important in a purchase
- 00:51:37decision which most customers don't know
- 00:51:40early in their purchase process they're
- 00:51:42trying to buy accounting software half
- 00:51:44the people doing a purchase in B2B have
- 00:51:46never purchased a product like yours
- 00:51:48before so they're doing this for the
- 00:51:50first time they're overwhelmed with
- 00:51:53information on the internet every vendor
- 00:51:55says we're the best no we're the best no
- 00:51:58we're the best what we need to do in
- 00:52:00good sales storytelling and B2B is help
- 00:52:04customers understand how to confidently
- 00:52:07make a decision in order to do that I
- 00:52:10have to paint a picture of the whole
- 00:52:12market so they feel good that they
- 00:52:15understand ah if I choose this I'm
- 00:52:18choosing to go big on this and low on
- 00:52:21this if I choose this here are the
- 00:52:23trade-offs for this if I choose this
- 00:52:24here the tradeoffs for this or you could
- 00:52:26choose us and here's the tradeoffs for
- 00:52:28us are we a good fit for you or not
- 00:52:31that's what we should be doing in a good
- 00:52:33sales storytelling in my opinion and who
- 00:52:35does that really well in your opinion I
- 00:52:38have a bunch of clients that I've worked
- 00:52:40with but one that I think is doing an
- 00:52:42amazing job of this for a really
- 00:52:44technical complicated product is a
- 00:52:47company I worked in with in San
- 00:52:48Francisco called Postman Postman does
- 00:52:52essentially a platform for
- 00:52:56um developing
- 00:52:58apis This Is A New Concept nobody had
- 00:53:01this idea of a platform for apis before
- 00:53:04postmen came up with it they do an
- 00:53:06amazing job I think of talking about why
- 00:53:10apis are important so important that you
- 00:53:13actually don't want a set of disjointed
- 00:53:15tools across your organization to work
- 00:53:18on them why that's important they've
- 00:53:21coined a concept called an API first
- 00:53:23world and then they've done an amazing
- 00:53:26job of Storytelling around that so if
- 00:53:27you go on their website on their
- 00:53:29homepage and you scroll down about
- 00:53:31halfway they have a graphic novel called
- 00:53:36the API first world and it's a graphic
- 00:53:39novel Divi designed for technical people
- 00:53:42to understand this story of what's an
- 00:53:46API why is it important why do we really
- 00:53:48want to have highquality apis why is
- 00:53:51that important for your business and why
- 00:53:53do we need a platform to enable that so
- 00:53:56I think they do an incredible job of
- 00:53:58that and they do it in a thousand
- 00:53:59different ways like if you see the CEO
- 00:54:02do a conference talk he's actually not
- 00:54:05talking about the product as much as he
- 00:54:07is talking about the market and this
- 00:54:10concept and why we need to think about
- 00:54:12apis
- 00:54:13differently but if you are aligned with
- 00:54:16his point of view on the market you're
- 00:54:18going to buy his product but they've
- 00:54:20really done a good job I think of
- 00:54:22developing a point of view on the market
- 00:54:24helping customers
- 00:54:25understand the context around their
- 00:54:28product and the things that you need to
- 00:54:31understand in order to understand why
- 00:54:33their product is valuable and why you
- 00:54:35might pick it how important is that from
- 00:54:37a CEO perspective at conferences and
- 00:54:39talks and media to basically put
- 00:54:43yourself out there and say I see the
- 00:54:45world this way which is slightly
- 00:54:46different than most people see it I
- 00:54:48think it's super important I think this
- 00:54:50concept of having a point of view on the
- 00:54:52market is really really important most
- 00:54:55Founders that I've worked with if you
- 00:54:57talk about how the original idea for the
- 00:55:01product came up they'll say you know I
- 00:55:03was really frustrated I looked at all
- 00:55:06the databases and I decided all the
- 00:55:07databases were doing it wrong and if you
- 00:55:10were smart and you knew what I knew I
- 00:55:12had a better way to do it yeah you would
- 00:55:13build a database like this part of what
- 00:55:16we need to communicate to customers is
- 00:55:19we kind of need to take them on that
- 00:55:21journey and say look we have a different
- 00:55:24perspective on this like we look at this
- 00:55:26problem different we it's not the
- 00:55:29problem it's we see a problem inside the
- 00:55:32problem we have a perspective on the
- 00:55:33problem that if you understood it the
- 00:55:36way we understood it you would pick our
- 00:55:38stuff right so that point of view I
- 00:55:41think is really super important and if
- 00:55:43you can nail that it is the key to
- 00:55:45selling lots of stuff and how important
- 00:55:48is it to you mentioned coin the term
- 00:55:50like how important is it to define the
- 00:55:52vocabulary by which the customers use
- 00:55:55ultimately to make a choice or to own a
- 00:55:58term so that if it becomes top of mind
- 00:56:01to them nobody else has that term it's
- 00:56:04really important if you are doing
- 00:56:06something that is
- 00:56:08truly Innovative like an emerging
- 00:56:12thing so earlier we talked about Market
- 00:56:15categories and most of the time if you
- 00:56:17look at by the way most successful
- 00:56:19companies do this they're going into an
- 00:56:21existing Market category and they're
- 00:56:23serving an underserved corner of that
- 00:56:24and they're expanding from that about
- 00:56:2610% of the time that's not true 10% of
- 00:56:29the time we have something that is
- 00:56:31emerging it's a market that is emerging
- 00:56:33there is no leader in that market right
- 00:56:35now because that market doesn't even
- 00:56:37exist right now this is something brand
- 00:56:38new you could never even do this before
- 00:56:41because technology wouldn't wasn't there
- 00:56:43to do it and so it's
- 00:56:45emerging when it's emerging there's no
- 00:56:49good vocabulary to talk about it
- 00:56:52because we've never talked about it
- 00:56:54before
- 00:56:55and often in those cases what we're
- 00:56:58doing is we're defining or attempting to
- 00:57:02Define what the boundaries of that
- 00:57:04Emerging Market category are what's
- 00:57:06important and what isn't important in
- 00:57:08that Emerging Market category and in
- 00:57:11those cases we often very much do want
- 00:57:14to put some names on things we may want
- 00:57:17to specifically name the market category
- 00:57:20in a way that advantages us we may want
- 00:57:22to name key Concepts in inside that in a
- 00:57:26way that helps customers understand why
- 00:57:30this is an important key thing that you
- 00:57:32need to understand in that and so if you
- 00:57:35see companies that have truly done
- 00:57:39category
- 00:57:40creation often they've done a very good
- 00:57:42job of helping customers understand key
- 00:57:46things that they needed to understand in
- 00:57:49order to understand ah this is a totally
- 00:57:51different problem I didn't even know I
- 00:57:53had this problem
- 00:57:56you know because if the customer knew
- 00:57:57there was a problem and they have that
- 00:57:59problem there would be a categories of
- 00:58:00solutions to solve it already in
- 00:58:02Emerging Markets we're often addressing
- 00:58:04a problem that customer doesn't even
- 00:58:06Define it as a problem they don't even
- 00:58:07know this is a problem it's just this is
- 00:58:09just the way the word world works
- 00:58:11there's no way to solve this problem if
- 00:58:12we can help them become problem
- 00:58:15aware then you know that's a step closer
- 00:58:18to that well you know now that you know
- 00:58:20that you have a problem we're the thing
- 00:58:21to thing we're the thing to solve that
- 00:58:23how do you think about independent
- 00:58:25bodies that play a role and I'm thinking
- 00:58:27like in cyber security there's the
- 00:58:29gardener quadrant and if you're not on
- 00:58:32there like people won't even consider
- 00:58:34your product but that sort of limits
- 00:58:36your ability to absolutely how do you
- 00:58:38think about that I spend a lot of time
- 00:58:40working with Gardner in my past roles as
- 00:58:43a VP
- 00:58:45marketing not every Market segment has
- 00:58:49an analyst or an expert body or somebody
- 00:58:53whose opinion matters a lot but but in
- 00:58:54some segments we do so I spent a lot of
- 00:58:57time in the database Market no large
- 00:59:00Enterprise buys a database without
- 00:59:02talking to Gardner group first so in
- 00:59:05that case we spent a lot of time helping
- 00:59:08Gardner group understand what our stuff
- 00:59:10was about why it was important why they
- 00:59:12should include us in the quadrant
- 00:59:14because we literally needed them to
- 00:59:17position us properly to clients that
- 00:59:19called them and asked for advice I've
- 00:59:22had other markets that I've been in
- 00:59:24where the buyers simply don't call
- 00:59:26Gardener group because they don't care
- 00:59:28what Gardener group has to say about
- 00:59:29that because Gardener group doesn't
- 00:59:30cover that space and Gardener groups
- 00:59:33does a really good job in Enterprise it
- 00:59:36outside of Enterprise it they're a bit
- 00:59:38less
- 00:59:39influential I think it's important if
- 00:59:41we're a vendor to understand where do
- 00:59:44our customers look for advice and where
- 00:59:47do we need to educate those people or
- 00:59:51those entities because they're giving
- 00:59:53advice to our customers sometimes that's
- 00:59:55industry analysts like Gartner sometimes
- 00:59:58it's service providers or system
- 01:00:00integrators like like deoe and they'll
- 01:00:03go to deoy and say what do you think
- 01:00:05about this you know we're being doing a
- 01:00:06big digital transformation you're our
- 01:00:08trusted adviser on digital
- 01:00:09transformation what do you think about
- 01:00:11these products in which case maybe I
- 01:00:13need a partnership with deoy because
- 01:00:15they're not going to recommend my stuff
- 01:00:16if they don't get some kind of money off
- 01:00:18of that yeah so it's important to
- 01:00:21understand who influences your buyer as
- 01:00:23we go down Market it's interesting there
- 01:00:26there'll be people like like you like
- 01:00:29podcasters that people listen to um
- 01:00:32people that are experts in things people
- 01:00:35ask me my advice about marketing
- 01:00:36technology all the time so in a small
- 01:00:39way I'm an influencer there um in the
- 01:00:42work that I do companies will often ask
- 01:00:44me well you know we now need to do all
- 01:00:46these things in sales who do you know
- 01:00:47that's really good in sales is there
- 01:00:49particular technology you should
- 01:00:50recommend in sales the important part as
- 01:00:52vendors I think is we need to understand
- 01:00:54who has influence on our buyers and do
- 01:00:57we need to invest some energy and
- 01:00:59attention in making sure that those
- 01:01:01influencers understand our stuff and are
- 01:01:03positioning us well what are the most
- 01:01:05interesting mistakes you've seen people
- 01:01:07make when it comes to positioning oh so
- 01:01:09many things the first mistake is not
- 01:01:12thinking about it at all and just
- 01:01:13assuming that there's only one position
- 01:01:16we could possibly take most products we
- 01:01:19could position them in a dozen different
- 01:01:21markets and if we really step back and
- 01:01:25forgot about the history and where we
- 01:01:27came from and looked at it with our
- 01:01:28fresh eyes we might see something really
- 01:01:31different so we need to think about this
- 01:01:33in the way customer thinks about it so
- 01:01:35not thinking about positioning at all is
- 01:01:37the first mistake the second mistake is
- 01:01:40as we talked about before treating it as
- 01:01:42a little marketing exercise we're just
- 01:01:44going to put some new words on the
- 01:01:46homepage and that's it we're done but
- 01:01:48sales has no idea how to pitch it
- 01:01:51product doesn't really understand it it
- 01:01:53doesn't actually represent the truth of
- 01:01:55our product at all is just nice pretty
- 01:01:58words this is not repositioning this
- 01:02:00isn't going to move the dial on anything
- 01:02:03um and then lately what I've seen
- 01:02:06is um companies that love the idea of
- 01:02:10category
- 01:02:11creation are are
- 01:02:14attempting to create a
- 01:02:17category when they obviously fit in an
- 01:02:21existing Market category and it's kind
- 01:02:23of wishful thinking
- 01:02:25that this is a new category so they say
- 01:02:26no no no we don't have any competition
- 01:02:29this is a brand new thing nobody works
- 01:02:31like this and the result is the customer
- 01:02:34is like but wait aren't you just a CRM
- 01:02:36why are you using all these other words
- 01:02:38I'm just
- 01:02:39confused so I've seen a lot of companies
- 01:02:41have come to me that have attempted to
- 01:02:45do category creation or pretend that
- 01:02:47they're doing this new category of
- 01:02:48things and then it's been a disaster
- 01:02:51customers are just very confused they
- 01:02:53don't understand why this is different
- 01:02:55from the existing things they're doing
- 01:02:57they can't figure out what bucket to put
- 01:02:59it in because they're trying to create a
- 01:03:00new bucket and it's been a disaster and
- 01:03:03then they come to me and they're like H
- 01:03:04now we got to fix this and how do we do
- 01:03:06it when there's an obvious spot where
- 01:03:09they could easily position in a very big
- 01:03:12sub segment of an existing Market
- 01:03:15category and that would be way easier to
- 01:03:17sell way easier to tell the story way
- 01:03:19easier to do deals so I see a lot of
- 01:03:22that right now what's the difference or
- 01:03:25maybe what does schools get wrong about
- 01:03:27B2B marketing that when you in the
- 01:03:30academic environment that sounds good
- 01:03:32but in the real world it falls flat oh
- 01:03:34my gosh so much stuff most of the
- 01:03:37research that's been done in marketing
- 01:03:39like when I went to marketing school it
- 01:03:41was so disappointing all of the research
- 01:03:44is done on consumer package Goods all of
- 01:03:47it and often what you'll get is a
- 01:03:50professor inside a marketing department
- 01:03:53at a University taking these things that
- 01:03:56we've learned about consumer packaged
- 01:03:58goods and then stretching it out and
- 01:04:00saying well obviously this works B to be
- 01:04:02exactly the same way and it's like well
- 01:04:05wait a second so we'll see things like I
- 01:04:09can't I must have this conversation
- 01:04:10about once a week where people will talk
- 01:04:13about uh what's that water liquid death
- 01:04:17you know this one I don't drink that the
- 01:04:19marketers are marketers are obsessed
- 01:04:21with this thing called liquid death and
- 01:04:23all it is is fizzy in a can made to look
- 01:04:25cool and they sell it at bars so you
- 01:04:27don't want to so you don't want to
- 01:04:28consume alcohol you're not into booze
- 01:04:30you go to the bar you still want to look
- 01:04:32cool you can order this liquid death
- 01:04:34it's got skulls on it and stuff they do
- 01:04:35all this really creative advertising and
- 01:04:37all this stuff and the B2B marketers
- 01:04:39look at that and say why can't we do
- 01:04:41that right like why can't this just be
- 01:04:43marketing why do we have to worry about
- 01:04:45product at all and often you'll get
- 01:04:47these marketers say look can we really
- 01:04:49differentiate on product because people
- 01:04:51can just copy our product they
- 01:04:54eventually everyone will just keep catch
- 01:04:56up to us and all the products will be
- 01:04:58exactly the same and if you're in Tech
- 01:05:01that is nonsense that is nonsense that
- 01:05:04that would be like saying you don't
- 01:05:06think any of the Innovation that Apple's
- 01:05:08done matters they could have just it's
- 01:05:12just marketing do you really think that
- 01:05:15so there is kind of this belief that we
- 01:05:17can take these things from consumer and
- 01:05:19apply it to a very considered purchase
- 01:05:23in a B2B situation where there are
- 01:05:26Stakes involved where the person making
- 01:05:28the decision might get fired right and
- 01:05:32say oh yeah that's just like buying
- 01:05:33fizzy water oh at the end of the day
- 01:05:35these people are all people and they're
- 01:05:37driven by emotions we have to connect
- 01:05:39with their emotions I agree with that
- 01:05:41but the emotion is
- 01:05:43fear it's not looking cool it's not hey
- 01:05:47I like the one with the skulls I can't
- 01:05:49go to my boss and say I bought the datab
- 01:05:52with this with the skulls man come
- 01:05:55on I just can't get away with that and
- 01:05:59so I've heard a lot of things in
- 01:06:01marketing classes where I've leaned back
- 01:06:04and said okay man if we're selling
- 01:06:06toothpaste fine but if I'm selling a
- 01:06:09million dollars worth of middleware not
- 01:06:13fine these rules do not apply so I think
- 01:06:16in schools we don't teach enough about
- 01:06:18B2B we don't teach enough about the
- 01:06:20difference between a highly considered
- 01:06:23purchase versus an unconsidered purchase
- 01:06:25I don't think we talk enough about
- 01:06:27buying committees I don't think we look
- 01:06:29enough at the research around how
- 01:06:32difficult it is to get over indecision
- 01:06:34in a B2B purchase process and what that
- 01:06:37means for our positioning for the way
- 01:06:40that we do sales pitches for a lot of
- 01:06:42the stuff we do so I don't see that
- 01:06:43covered enough in schools at all every
- 01:06:46great B2B marketer I know has learned
- 01:06:49this on the ground handson doing it in
- 01:06:53companies where all starting from
- 01:06:54scratch what do you know about B2B
- 01:06:56decision making that you would say most
- 01:06:58people get
- 01:06:59wrong the the biggest one is this idea
- 01:07:02of customer
- 01:07:03indecision that people do not understand
- 01:07:08how difficult it is to make a purchase
- 01:07:11if you understood the research on that
- 01:07:13it's amazing anything gets bought at all
- 01:07:16there's a great book out there it's by
- 01:07:18this guy Matt Dixon it's called the jolt
- 01:07:21effect and the research in that is
- 01:07:23incredible so when we went into lockdown
- 01:07:26and co uh he took this opportunity to
- 01:07:30study sales calls because all of a
- 01:07:31sudden all the sales calls were
- 01:07:33happening virtually so everybody was
- 01:07:34doing them on zoom and so they took some
- 01:07:37Ai and they analyzed two and a half
- 01:07:39million sales calls and they did it in
- 01:07:43partnership with with these companies so
- 01:07:45that they could look at what happened on
- 01:07:47the sales call and then what ultimately
- 01:07:49happened did we get the deal did we not
- 01:07:51get the deal what works and what doesn't
- 01:07:53work and that research is terrifying
- 01:07:58when you look at it like that's where
- 01:07:59this number comes from 40 to 60% of B2B
- 01:08:04purchase processes end in no decision
- 01:08:06this is the most fearsome competitor we
- 01:08:08have in B2B by far is no decision and
- 01:08:12this no decision is not because we've
- 01:08:15made a decision to stay with the thing
- 01:08:16we have because we think it's better is
- 01:08:18because we look at our choices we can't
- 01:08:20figure out how to do that in a way that
- 01:08:22we're sure isn't going to get us into
- 01:08:23trouble so we just don't do anything if
- 01:08:26we really understood that I think we
- 01:08:29would operate very differently in B2B
- 01:08:31you can see the difference in people
- 01:08:33that get that and people that don't
- 01:08:36that's fascinating I think it's really
- 01:08:37interesting to sort of think of sales
- 01:08:39Cycles I like the fear concept my friend
- 01:08:42who who runs a cyber secur company I was
- 01:08:44like oh put me in charge of sales he's
- 01:08:46like what would you do I was like I
- 01:08:48would show up with a binder of newspaper
- 01:08:50clippings companies that got hacked and
- 01:08:52be like my job is that you don't appear
- 01:08:55in this book and that would be my entire
- 01:08:56s like they don't care about the
- 01:08:58technical feature they're not buying
- 01:09:00features right they're buying the
- 01:09:02benefit and when you're selling
- 01:09:03something negative which you know
- 01:09:05doesn't contribute to revenue directly
- 01:09:07right you're basically selling the
- 01:09:09prevention of something negative from
- 01:09:11happening right how do you do that I was
- 01:09:13like why wouldn't that be effective I
- 01:09:15don't know right this has been a
- 01:09:17fascinating conversation we always end
- 01:09:19with sort of the same question which is
- 01:09:21what is success for you in life oh so I
- 01:09:25feel like I so I spent my whole career
- 01:09:29being a vice president of marketing I
- 01:09:31did that for 25 30 years and the thing
- 01:09:34about being a vice president of
- 01:09:35marketing it's a really hard job you
- 01:09:37have to know a lot about a lot of things
- 01:09:39marketers talk about being t-shaped you
- 01:09:41have to know you have to be this deep on
- 01:09:43so many things and then usually you have
- 01:09:45one thing that you're really deep on for
- 01:09:47most of my career I was a t-shaped
- 01:09:49marketer and the thing I was really deep
- 01:09:51on was positioning
- 01:09:54now I'm a consultant and I just get to
- 01:09:56do that thing that I love and so that
- 01:10:00has been such satisfying work it's been
- 01:10:03so
- 01:10:04satisfying to work with companies
- 01:10:07wrestle this thing that is really thorny
- 01:10:10really hard and when it clicks it feels
- 01:10:14like magic it feels like magic like good
- 01:10:17positioning when you look at it
- 01:10:19afterwards people will say of course
- 01:10:22that's what they are of of course that's
- 01:10:24what they do and you're like actually
- 01:10:26that was really hard for us to get there
- 01:10:28and if you had to asked us two years ago
- 01:10:29we had no idea what that is and now it's
- 01:10:31this and it seems obvious but it wasn't
- 01:10:33obvious that is very satisfying work to
- 01:10:35do so I just feel that is success for me
- 01:10:38when we get to the end of these these
- 01:10:41projects and everybody in the room is
- 01:10:43like this is so much easier to sell this
- 01:10:46is so much easier for customers to
- 01:10:48understand I had a client come to me two
- 01:10:50weeks ago and they're doing the the
- 01:10:53first roll out of these new sales
- 01:10:54pitches that they're doing and so the
- 01:10:56first pitch that they did and they were
- 01:10:58very scared to do it because a brand new
- 01:11:00pitch and it was really high-profile
- 01:11:02client really big deal they went in and
- 01:11:05it's a competitive deal so they know
- 01:11:07that the prospect has talked to their
- 01:11:09two competitors and then they're coming
- 01:11:11to talk to them and the CEO sent me an
- 01:11:14email and said after we did the pitch
- 01:11:17the prospect CEO pulled him aside and
- 01:11:20said I have never seen a sales pitch as
- 01:11:23good to that in my entire life and like
- 01:11:25we've seen a lot of sales pitches like
- 01:11:26that was really great that's awesome and
- 01:11:28so that is the most satisfying thing and
- 01:11:31so he's happy I'm happy everyone's happy
- 01:11:35you also hit on something in that answer
- 01:11:37that I think goes underappreciated in
- 01:11:39life which is avoiding uh your
- 01:11:42weaknesses so doing the thing that
- 01:11:44you're really good at and structuring
- 01:11:46your life in a way uh where you're not
- 01:11:48you're doing a lot of the things that
- 01:11:50you either don't want to be doing or
- 01:11:51that you're not as good at it's so
- 01:11:53amazing I wish I had have been doing it
- 01:11:55sooner in my career although I don't
- 01:11:57know if I'd be good at this if I didn't
- 01:11:59have 25 30 years of being a Hands-On
- 01:12:02vice president of marketing but this
- 01:12:04does feel like the reward phase of my
- 01:12:06career that I just get to work in my
- 01:12:08little zone of Excellence doing this
- 01:12:11thing that has really big impact on
- 01:12:13companies I love it they love it I'm
- 01:12:15happy they're happy everybody's happy
- 01:12:18it's if if this is all I do for the rest
- 01:12:21of my life perfect
- positioning
- marketing
- B2B sales
- tech companies
- strategic planning
- product differentiation
- storytelling
- brand messaging
- competitive analysis