The Campaign Against UNRWA w/ Chris Gunness | Connections #92

00:54:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoyYGslwPBY

Summary

TLDRIn this episode of Connections with M Rabani, he interviews Chris Gunnis, former Director of UNRWA's strategic information. They discuss the challenges faced by UNRWA, a specialized UN agency for Palestinian refugees. UNRWA was established post-1948 war to provide services to Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, West Bank, and Gaza, differing from UNHCR, which handles all other global refugees. Gunnis explains the historical misconceptions and pressures on UNRWA, including alleged bias in educational materials, which have been largely unfounded upon investigation. Recently, Israel accused UNRWA staff of involvement in attacks, causing a suspension of funding from some donors, but without substantive evidence. The internal UN investigation couldn't verify these allegations, leading to some funding being resumed. Gunnis argues there's a sustained effort by Israel to dismantle UNRWA, seen as advocating the Right of Return for Palestinians - a point disputed by UNRWA's actual operations and mandate. The episode also covers logistical challenges facing UNRWA in delivering services amidst the blockade in Gaza. Despite the setbacks, proposals are discussed for UNRWA to rebuild trust and funding support, emphasizing the agency's critical humanitarian role. Furthermore, the necessity of separating humanitarian aid from political influence is highlighted amid criticisms of both donor countries and internal UN policies.

Takeaways

  • 🌐 UNRWA exclusively serves Palestinian refugees, unlike UNHCR.
  • 📚 Investigations have shown that education materials at UNRWA are largely neutral.
  • 🇮🇱 There's a perceived anti-UNRWA campaign initiated by Israel.
  • 💼 UNRWA does not manage security in refugee camps; it manages services.
  • 💡 Misconceptions persist about UNRWA's role in refugee resettlement.
  • 🛑 Recent defunding moves by some donors lack substantive grounding.
  • 🔍 Internal investigations found no evidence to support Israeli claims of staff misconduct.
  • 🏚️ UNRWA faces operational challenges due to geopolitical tensions and funding cuts.
  • 🤝 Discussions are underway to restore UNRWA's budget and donor trust.
  • 🚧 Humanitarian aid and political agendas need clear separation.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The interviewer begins by questioning the necessity of a specialized agency like UNRWA for Palestinian refugees and how it differs from UNHCR. Chris Gunnis explains that UNRWA was created to provide immediate relief and has since evolved to address human development needs. He highlights its core services: education, health, and social services amidst the ongoing instability in the Middle East.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    UNRWA's mandate is compared to UNHCR, emphasizing UNRWA's exclusive focus on Palestinian refugees displaced in 1948 and their descendants. It counters misconceptions that UNHCR could or should take over UNRWA's responsibilities, highlighting the complexities and rights of refugees, including the right of return.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    The discussion on UNRWA's role touches on Israeli and donor perceptions that it pushes for the right of return, which Gunnis dismisses as a misconception. He discusses the historical tension and the role of UNRWA in maintaining its non-political stance while providing crucial services despite political pressures.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Textbook content taught by UNRWA is debated amidst accusations of inciting violence. Gunnis clarifies that textbooks used are those of the host countries and that UNRWA has a process to ensure conformity with UN values. Despite accusations, exhaustive audits have generally cleared UNRWA of bias.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Amidst ongoing conflicts and accusations, a leaked Israeli document outlines a smear, defund, and dismantle plan against UNRWA. Gunnis connects this to historical Israeli strategies and criticizes the lack of evidence for recent allegations against UNRWA personnel, leading to unjust donor reactions and impacting aid in Gaza.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Recent allegations against UNRWA staff lacked evidence but led to donor reactions that severely cut funding, exacerbating the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. An internal UN investigation is being conducted, and some donors are resuming funding, but the situation remains critical.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Gunnis criticizes the donor's rapid reaction to Israeli claims, which resulted in significant funding cuts. He elaborates on the repercussions, including potential violations of international law and complicity in worsening the humanitarian crisis in Gaza due to lack of support for UNRWA.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    The conversation turns to alternative aid mechanisms and whether they represent a threat to UNRWA's operations. Gunnis defends the necessity of UNRWA amidst the complex logistics of delivering aid to Gaza but acknowledges the need for coordinated efforts involving multiple agencies.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    Gunnis discusses potential Israeli measures that could further impede UNRWA, such as visa refusals and blocking financial transactions. He stresses the need for donor support to ensure UNRWA's survival and effectiveness, highlighting the precarious nature of humanitarian operations in the politically charged region.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:54:10

    The discussion concludes by advocating for continued support and reform for UNRWA. Gunnis emphasizes the critical services UNRWA provides across the Middle East and the existential threat it faces due to funding challenges and political pressures. He calls for strategic and unified donor actions to safeguard its future.

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Mind Map

Video Q&A

  • Why is there a specialized agency for Palestinian refugees?

    UNRWA was created to provide relief to Palestinian refugees following the 1948 war, offering services such as education and health.

  • How does UNRWA differ from the UNHCR?

    UNRWA is specifically for Palestinian refugees, whereas UNHCR covers all other refugees globally.

  • Is UNRWA responsible for security in refugee camps?

    No, UNRWA provides services within the camps but is not responsible for security.

  • Has there been a campaign against UNRWA?

    Yes, there is a belief of a campaign, primarily driven by Israel, to defund and dismantle UNRWA.

  • What is a major misconception about UNRWA and resettlement?

    Some believe UNRWA is focused on the right of return, whereas resettlement options fall under UNHCR's mandate.

  • Have education materials used by UNRWA been examined for bias?

    Yes, materials are regularly audited by external bodies and UNRWA's practices have been largely validated.

  • What recent allegations were made against UNRWA employees?

    Israel alleged involvement of UNRWA staff in attacks, but evidence has not been provided.

  • How have donors reacted to allegations against UNRWA?

    There was a suspension of funding by some donors based on unsubstantiated claims.

  • What is the UN's response to the allegations against UNRWA?

    An internal investigation was launched, and some donors resumed funding after no evidence was found.

  • What challenges does UNRWA currently face?

    It faces challenges of funding, political support, and operational capacities amid allegations and geopolitical conflicts.

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  • 00:00:00
    are the allegations leveled against unra
  • 00:00:02
    driven by a larger agenda welcome to
  • 00:00:05
    connections the Arab Studies Institute
  • 00:00:07
    interview program I'm M Rabani and for
  • 00:00:10
    this episode we're delighted to be
  • 00:00:12
    speaking with Chris gunnis the
  • 00:00:14
    award-winning journalist who served as
  • 00:00:16
    the agency's Director of strategic
  • 00:00:18
    information and advocacy between 2007
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    and
  • 00:00:22
    2020 Chris gunnis it's a real pleasure
  • 00:00:25
    to welcome you to connections it's a
  • 00:00:27
    great pleasure to be with you and thank
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    you very much for having me your on your
  • 00:00:30
    show thank you um I'd like to start with
  • 00:00:34
    maybe a general question about unra the
  • 00:00:37
    United Nations uh Refugee relief and
  • 00:00:40
    works Agency for Palestine refugees in
  • 00:00:43
    the near East um many people may ask why
  • 00:00:46
    is there a specialized agency for
  • 00:00:49
    Palestinian refugees at all and how does
  • 00:00:51
    its mandate and definition differ from
  • 00:00:54
    that of its larger and well-known and
  • 00:00:57
    better known sister agency un C the
  • 00:01:00
    United Nations High commission for
  • 00:01:02
    refugees that's a really important
  • 00:01:04
    question we because it actually gets to
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    the heart of the current problems that
  • 00:01:09
    the UN is facing unra was voted into
  • 00:01:12
    existence by the general assembly in
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    December 1949 and became operational on
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    the ground in May 1950 this was a
  • 00:01:20
    response to the 1948 War which saw
  • 00:01:24
    750,000 Palestinians driven from their
  • 00:01:28
    homes or they fled from their homes into
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    neighboring countries so those in the
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    north of Palestine went up into Lebanon
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    those in the Northeast went to Syria
  • 00:01:35
    those in the East went to Jordan others
  • 00:01:37
    went to the West Bank and some to Gaza
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    as its name suggests the immediate task
  • 00:01:44
    of unra in those early days was to give
  • 00:01:46
    relief to desperate refugees who needed
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    water they needed food they needed
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    housing um they needed medicine and
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    R indeed um and actually this is one of
  • 00:01:58
    the light motifs that occurs throughout
  • 00:02:00
    anr's existence so that's what anra did
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    in the initial months and year or so but
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    then it became apparent that the
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    fledgling state of Israel was not going
  • 00:02:11
    to abide by its obligations under
  • 00:02:13
    resolution 1 194 and to give the
  • 00:02:15
    refugees the right of return so suddenly
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    what everyone thought would be a
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    temporary agency just handing out some
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    food and some Med medicine and some
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    water and perhaps some tents just before
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    these refugees went back to their homes
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    in Israel um it moured into something
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    more permanent so anra had to start
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    doing human development these refugees
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    had children who needed education the
  • 00:02:38
    refugees themselves needed help as did
  • 00:02:40
    their children there were vulnerable
  • 00:02:42
    people in the refugee population who
  • 00:02:43
    needed relief and social services and
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    there in those three broad categories
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    you have what today are the core
  • 00:02:51
    Services of unra education for 550,000
  • 00:02:56
    children in Syria Jordan Lebanon the
  • 00:02:59
    West Bank and and Gaza in over 700
  • 00:03:01
    schools across the Middle East you have
  • 00:03:04
    the uh Health Department with something
  • 00:03:07
    like 15 primary health clinics across
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    the region and relief and social
  • 00:03:11
    services so emergency food for over 2
  • 00:03:14
    million people um un's Health Department
  • 00:03:17
    does 7 million patient visits a year the
  • 00:03:21
    vulnerable the elderly the sick there
  • 00:03:23
    are women's projects as well so that as
  • 00:03:26
    I say is unr's core program those three
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    educ ation Health relief and social
  • 00:03:31
    services but then of course because the
  • 00:03:32
    Middle East has always been inherently
  • 00:03:35
    unstable and because the refugees often
  • 00:03:37
    find themselves in the fulcrum of this
  • 00:03:40
    instability look at Gaza today unra
  • 00:03:44
    while maintaining these core Services
  • 00:03:47
    suddenly has to get off get on and deal
  • 00:03:49
    with 2.3 million people against whom a
  • 00:03:52
    plausible genocide is being committed as
  • 00:03:54
    we're seeing today in Gaza so there we
  • 00:03:57
    have unra in a nutshell on the one hand
  • 00:03:59
    there the core services on the other
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    hand there's relief and Social Services
  • 00:04:03
    now the other part of your question you
  • 00:04:05
    asked was about the difference between
  • 00:04:07
    unra and unhcr and before you before you
  • 00:04:10
    answer that just to clarify that un
  • 00:04:13
    neither owns or administers the refugee
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    camps correct and nor does it provide
  • 00:04:19
    services only to refugees within camps
  • 00:04:23
    no that's absolutely right because
  • 00:04:24
    people often say particularly the
  • 00:04:26
    Israelis that unra is responsible for
  • 00:04:29
    security
  • 00:04:30
    for Hamas in Gaza outside the camps or
  • 00:04:33
    even inside the camps the point is unra
  • 00:04:36
    runs services within refugee camps and
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    unra is responsible for its facilities
  • 00:04:43
    its schools its warehouses its food
  • 00:04:45
    distribution centers its primary health
  • 00:04:47
    clinics and so on and so forth but it's
  • 00:04:49
    not responsible for what goes on outside
  • 00:04:52
    and it can't be anra is an aid
  • 00:04:54
    organization it does not have if not
  • 00:04:57
    doesn't have a private army or a police
  • 00:04:58
    force that go can go around policing um
  • 00:05:01
    refugee camps um on this distinction
  • 00:05:04
    between unhcr and unra unra was
  • 00:05:06
    established in 1949 by the general
  • 00:05:08
    assembly unhcr came into existence with
  • 00:05:12
    the refugee convention in
  • 00:05:15
    1951 and essentially the difference is
  • 00:05:18
    that unra deals exclusively with
  • 00:05:20
    Palestine refugees those who were made
  • 00:05:23
    homeless or forc from their homes by the
  • 00:05:25
    1948 war and their descendants which is
  • 00:05:28
    absolutely standard refugee practice
  • 00:05:30
    with all Refugee work including unhcr's
  • 00:05:33
    unhcr deals with all the rest so
  • 00:05:35
    everyone else all the other refugees in
  • 00:05:37
    the world apart from Palestinians that
  • 00:05:39
    falls under the Mandate of unhcr there's
  • 00:05:42
    one other very popular misconception
  • 00:05:44
    which the Israelis in particular put
  • 00:05:46
    about and that is that uncr does third
  • 00:05:50
    third country um um resettlement so the
  • 00:05:54
    idea is you know fold up unra hand all
  • 00:05:56
    the refugees over to UNR and they'll
  • 00:05:58
    just resettle them out outside Palestine
  • 00:06:00
    they'll hand them over they'll go to
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    Canada and they'll go I don't know to
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    Middle Eastern countries maybe that
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    isn't how it works dear Israel far right
  • 00:06:08
    um you know these are human beings with
  • 00:06:12
    inalienable rights and like all refugees
  • 00:06:15
    whether they're administered by uncr or
  • 00:06:17
    by unra they have three potential
  • 00:06:20
    choices to make they can choose to stay
  • 00:06:22
    where they are local integration as it's
  • 00:06:24
    called they can choose to go to a third
  • 00:06:27
    country Third Country resettlement as I
  • 00:06:29
    me men you know go to Canada go to some
  • 00:06:31
    country that has a um an asylum policy
  • 00:06:33
    that will let you in or the right of
  • 00:06:35
    return and interestingly for unhcr the
  • 00:06:39
    preferred remedy as they call it is the
  • 00:06:42
    right of return why because in unhcr's
  • 00:06:45
    long history it is very clear that the
  • 00:06:48
    right of return produces the most stable
  • 00:06:51
    outcomes after a war when refugees are
  • 00:06:54
    driven across International borders
  • 00:06:56
    whatever the result is much much more
  • 00:06:58
    stable if after the war in times of
  • 00:07:01
    Peace those refugees go back home and
  • 00:07:04
    they live alongside their neighbors in
  • 00:07:06
    peace they trade with their neighbors
  • 00:07:07
    they do business with their neighbors
  • 00:07:09
    who know they may even intermar with
  • 00:07:10
    their neighbors they may love their
  • 00:07:11
    neighbors who knows but essentially it
  • 00:07:14
    is a fallacy that unra is pushing the
  • 00:07:17
    right of return and unhcr will resettle
  • 00:07:20
    the refugees elsewhere that is simply
  • 00:07:22
    not true well and another distinction is
  • 00:07:25
    that apart from um uh General um
  • 00:07:29
    Conformity to un resolutions unra is
  • 00:07:33
    neither empowered nor does it uh propose
  • 00:07:38
    any solution um to to Palestinian
  • 00:07:40
    refugees whereas unhcr does propose
  • 00:07:43
    specific solutions to those under its
  • 00:07:45
    care that is highly debatable and
  • 00:07:50
    debated and you will know the work of
  • 00:07:53
    Lex tackenberg and Franchesca albanesi
  • 00:07:57
    and in their huge tone on Palestine
  • 00:08:00
    refugees and international law they
  • 00:08:02
    argue very strongly that although the
  • 00:08:06
    Israelis in particular but also the main
  • 00:08:08
    donors like the Americans have always
  • 00:08:11
    forbidden unra from engaging in
  • 00:08:13
    discussions about durable Solutions
  • 00:08:15
    because they believe that unra will just
  • 00:08:17
    push the right of return which isn't
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    true unra will ask the refugees like all
  • 00:08:21
    refugees are asked they have freedom of
  • 00:08:24
    choice and they will make an informed
  • 00:08:26
    decision but it's not the case and if
  • 00:08:28
    you look at unr's name United Nations
  • 00:08:30
    relief and works agency Works suggests a
  • 00:08:34
    durable solution because from the very
  • 00:08:36
    start there were Huge works programs
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    literally employment programs which were
  • 00:08:41
    created for the refugees in the
  • 00:08:44
    countries where they were so I
  • 00:08:46
    understand what you're saying Meen but
  • 00:08:48
    believe me it is a hotly disputed
  • 00:08:51
    question the question of whether anra
  • 00:08:53
    has the right or the mandate to push for
  • 00:08:57
    durable solutions for the refugees I
  • 00:08:59
    mean if if you believe that unra should
  • 00:09:01
    protect All rights then what about the
  • 00:09:04
    right to self-determination is that not
  • 00:09:06
    a legitimate right and if so how does
  • 00:09:08
    unra go about protecting that right to
  • 00:09:11
    self-determination you know on goes the
  • 00:09:13
    argument about whether unra is mandated
  • 00:09:15
    to engage in durable Solutions right
  • 00:09:19
    thanks for that clarification um and and
  • 00:09:21
    now I'd like to turn to the current
  • 00:09:24
    situation um specifically the recent
  • 00:09:27
    Israeli allegations um these are not the
  • 00:09:29
    first against un of course and is and it
  • 00:09:32
    has been suggested that these should be
  • 00:09:34
    seen as part of a larger not only
  • 00:09:36
    Israeli but us Israeli campaign against
  • 00:09:39
    the agency do you believe there is
  • 00:09:41
    indeed such a campaign and if you do
  • 00:09:44
    what in your view are its primary
  • 00:09:46
    objectives I do believe there's a
  • 00:09:48
    campaign I think it's pushed more by
  • 00:09:51
    Israel than it is by the Americans
  • 00:09:53
    because the Americans of course are have
  • 00:09:55
    been historically until very recently
  • 00:09:58
    the largest f by far of unra so there is
  • 00:10:03
    and always has been a belief in isra in
  • 00:10:06
    Israeli political circles and Military
  • 00:10:09
    circles that unra is pushing the right
  • 00:10:12
    of return and that if you get rid of
  • 00:10:14
    unra you magically get rid of the
  • 00:10:16
    refugees and the right of return but I
  • 00:10:17
    mean was surrogate for the refugee
  • 00:10:22
    that's the that's that's the thinking
  • 00:10:24
    but of course that's a bit like saying
  • 00:10:25
    that if you get rid of Oxfam you get rid
  • 00:10:27
    of poor people I mean it's just a it's a
  • 00:10:29
    sort of far-right fascistic fantasy it
  • 00:10:31
    isn't actually based in Refugee law or
  • 00:10:34
    Refugee best practice um there has been
  • 00:10:38
    this campaign as early as 1967 youve got
  • 00:10:41
    the the occupying power the new
  • 00:10:43
    occupying power compaining that the
  • 00:10:46
    occupied people don't sufficiently
  • 00:10:48
    accept the narrative in its Textbooks
  • 00:10:50
    For example of the occupying power of
  • 00:10:53
    Israel so as as you suggest M it's a
  • 00:10:56
    very very long narrative
  • 00:10:59
    and Israel has always argued that the
  • 00:11:03
    Palestinians under unra are taught
  • 00:11:06
    violence they're taught anti-Semitism
  • 00:11:07
    they're taught anti-zionism that
  • 00:11:09
    actually isn't true if you look at the
  • 00:11:11
    textbooks first of all unra teaches the
  • 00:11:15
    textbooks of the hosts so in Syria oh it
  • 00:11:18
    has multiple
  • 00:11:20
    curricula yeah so in Syria it's
  • 00:11:22
    preparing kids for Syrian public exams
  • 00:11:24
    lo and behold it teaches the Syrian
  • 00:11:27
    textbooks in Jordan similarly preparing
  • 00:11:29
    kids for public exams in Jordan and in
  • 00:11:31
    gar and the West Bank it's preparing
  • 00:11:33
    kids for PA for for public exams um
  • 00:11:37
    which are administered by the PA
  • 00:11:39
    education Ministry and so it teaches
  • 00:11:41
    textbooks which the PA teaches and if
  • 00:11:44
    someone turned up in wherever you are M
  • 00:11:46
    I believe Canada if a UN agency turned
  • 00:11:49
    up and started telling Canadian parents
  • 00:11:51
    and Canadian schools what it should be
  • 00:11:53
    teaching kids um you know in the
  • 00:11:55
    classroom I think Canadian politicians
  • 00:11:57
    and human rights groups and parents
  • 00:11:59
    whatever would very quickly object
  • 00:12:01
    because education textbooks are a
  • 00:12:03
    sovereignty issue and you know the
  • 00:12:05
    Israelis argue as if unra could just
  • 00:12:07
    change the textbooks you know do this do
  • 00:12:10
    that it's not that simple so yes the
  • 00:12:12
    textbooks are very much the front line
  • 00:12:15
    um of the battle um between Israel and
  • 00:12:18
    unra but there are others I mean the
  • 00:12:20
    Israelis regularly say that the staff
  • 00:12:22
    social media postings show that there's
  • 00:12:24
    a lack of neutrality and there are other
  • 00:12:27
    examples most recently um the claims and
  • 00:12:30
    they remain unsubstantiated claims I
  • 00:12:33
    might add that 12 un staff members took
  • 00:12:36
    part in the 7th of October attacks in
  • 00:12:39
    southern Israel um that is just the
  • 00:12:42
    latest Salvo in a political smear
  • 00:12:46
    campaign against anra that really is as
  • 00:12:48
    old as the occupation itself but before
  • 00:12:52
    we get to that if if I may interrupt you
  • 00:12:54
    did raise the issue of textbooks and
  • 00:12:57
    these textbooks have in fact been
  • 00:13:00
    repeatedly I would say incessantly
  • 00:13:03
    investigated um by the European Union um
  • 00:13:06
    by EU States um by a whole host of
  • 00:13:09
    agencies what what is is there a general
  • 00:13:12
    assessment of of of what these uh
  • 00:13:15
    multiple in-depth
  • 00:13:18
    investigations have
  • 00:13:20
    concluded yes there is and it's not just
  • 00:13:23
    in-depth investigations National Audit
  • 00:13:25
    officers like the GAO the general
  • 00:13:28
    auditor's office from the United States
  • 00:13:30
    in 2019 I believe just before I left
  • 00:13:33
    unra um they came and they did a root
  • 00:13:36
    and Branch audit of all of the
  • 00:13:39
    neutrality questions in unra including
  • 00:13:42
    the textbooks and by and large they gave
  • 00:13:45
    onr's textbooks a clean bill of health
  • 00:13:47
    and in fact after that audit they the
  • 00:13:49
    Americans carried on funding to the tune
  • 00:13:51
    of $350 million and believe me if there
  • 00:13:54
    was any doubt that unr's textbooks or
  • 00:13:56
    the PA textbooks which unra uses to be
  • 00:13:58
    more accur
  • 00:13:59
    was in any way promoting racism
  • 00:14:01
    anti-Semitism violence against Jews all
  • 00:14:03
    of that kind of you know allegation
  • 00:14:05
    believe you me the Americans would not
  • 00:14:08
    have res have been funding um have been
  • 00:14:10
    funding unra so yes um there have been
  • 00:14:13
    audits what unra has tended to find is
  • 00:14:16
    that there's a kind of echo chamber so
  • 00:14:19
    Israel has established various very
  • 00:14:21
    pro-israel think tanks or um NOS I mean
  • 00:14:25
    good examples being un watch NGO monitor
  • 00:14:29
    impact SE I mean impact SE is a very
  • 00:14:32
    interesting organization they allegedly
  • 00:14:34
    exist to make sure that curricula around
  • 00:14:36
    the midle East are in Conformity with un
  • 00:14:39
    values Etc but basically they have made
  • 00:14:42
    a habit of attacking unra um relatively
  • 00:14:45
    recently they did a big study of what
  • 00:14:47
    they thought was under textbooks and
  • 00:14:49
    launched this big attack very public
  • 00:14:51
    attack only uh it turned out to be
  • 00:14:54
    Jordanian and Egyptian textbooks and
  • 00:14:57
    they'd got the wrong textbooks all
  • 00:14:58
    together so they have very low um
  • 00:15:01
    credibility among presumably never
  • 00:15:03
    examined the Israeli
  • 00:15:05
    curriculum well there's a very good
  • 00:15:06
    question I mean the first thing every
  • 00:15:08
    Israeli child is taught when he comes
  • 00:15:09
    into school is it it is good to Die For
  • 00:15:11
    Your Country which is the saying from an
  • 00:15:14
    early Zionist Mr trumpore and
  • 00:15:17
    essentially that is espousing political
  • 00:15:19
    violence and Israeli kids are taught
  • 00:15:21
    that on day one in K you know when they
  • 00:15:23
    turn up for their first year and their
  • 00:15:25
    first class at school so yes I mean
  • 00:15:27
    there isn't um but the fact is that you
  • 00:15:29
    know whatever is in textbooks anywhere
  • 00:15:31
    in the world the UN does have an
  • 00:15:33
    obligation to teach CH children
  • 00:15:36
    according to un values and unra
  • 00:15:39
    certainly does that it's got a very very
  • 00:15:41
    wellestablished
  • 00:15:42
    um process for reviewing PA textbooks it
  • 00:15:46
    does so according to three criteria um
  • 00:15:50
    age appropriate violence um gender
  • 00:15:53
    representation to make sure that women
  • 00:15:54
    and girls are properly represented in
  • 00:15:56
    these books and political neutrality and
  • 00:15:58
    when I was in unra anyway um less than
  • 00:16:02
    4% of the materials which the education
  • 00:16:04
    department in Aman examined were found
  • 00:16:07
    to be problematic and in my day at least
  • 00:16:09
    what the education department used to do
  • 00:16:12
    was produce alternative what they used
  • 00:16:14
    to call enrichment materials teach them
  • 00:16:17
    to teachers and so when problematic
  • 00:16:20
    passages in textbooks were about to be
  • 00:16:23
    taught the teachers would put them to
  • 00:16:25
    one side and teach you know something
  • 00:16:26
    which UNR education department had
  • 00:16:29
    specifically um developed so yes the
  • 00:16:31
    curriculum sorry you said age
  • 00:16:34
    appropriate violence did you mean
  • 00:16:35
    something
  • 00:16:36
    else no in other words you're not going
  • 00:16:38
    to teach seveny olds about um you know
  • 00:16:42
    vicious terrorist Acts or whatever so
  • 00:16:45
    age appropriate but what what I mean by
  • 00:16:46
    that is you know the books are examined
  • 00:16:48
    to make sure that you know a
  • 00:16:49
    nine-year-old doesn't have a textbook
  • 00:16:51
    which
  • 00:16:53
    depicts or whatever yeah yeah I mean
  • 00:16:55
    some some terrifying some Er terrify act
  • 00:16:59
    of violence so it's age appropriate
  • 00:17:01
    violence if that's not the right phrase
  • 00:17:03
    forgive me oh now I get it yeah you get
  • 00:17:05
    it um political neutrality and gender
  • 00:17:08
    representation But to answer your
  • 00:17:10
    question that I was talking about before
  • 00:17:11
    yes I mean the textbook issue is part of
  • 00:17:14
    a much longer narrative and actually
  • 00:17:16
    cutting to today um since the the the
  • 00:17:21
    the plausible genocide started in Gaza
  • 00:17:23
    um several documents have come to light
  • 00:17:27
    including an official isra document
  • 00:17:29
    which was leaked which had a three-phase
  • 00:17:33
    plan the first in relation to unra the
  • 00:17:35
    first phase was um to um to smear unr's
  • 00:17:40
    reputation a smear campaign secondly was
  • 00:17:43
    a defund campaign and the third was a
  • 00:17:46
    dismantle campaign so there were three
  • 00:17:49
    clear phases set out in this officially
  • 00:17:52
    I don't know whether sanctioned or not I
  • 00:17:54
    don't think it was necessarily approved
  • 00:17:55
    by the cabinet but it was certainly
  • 00:17:57
    reflective of is Israeli thinking so yes
  • 00:18:01
    it's a long narrative it goes back to
  • 00:18:02
    the occupation and it stretches right to
  • 00:18:06
    today and we haven't talked about the
  • 00:18:08
    allegations but there has been no
  • 00:18:10
    credible evidence produced by Israel to
  • 00:18:13
    substantiate these latest claims against
  • 00:18:15
    under staff members so let's turn to
  • 00:18:17
    those and that would combine um what
  • 00:18:19
    you've just described as the smear
  • 00:18:21
    campaign and the defund campaign um
  • 00:18:25
    remind us of of the um of the nature of
  • 00:18:29
    the most recent allegations against Dona
  • 00:18:32
    and its employees and how a number of
  • 00:18:35
    the agency's main donors responded to
  • 00:18:38
    these allegations so Israel presented a
  • 00:18:42
    list without any evidence of 12 staff
  • 00:18:45
    members um Nam three of them so names
  • 00:18:48
    yeah and um anra was told that they were
  • 00:18:51
    involved in the 7th of October attacks
  • 00:18:55
    but no actual evidence was handed over
  • 00:18:57
    to unra and this came a day after the
  • 00:19:01
    international court of justice on the
  • 00:19:02
    26th of January made
  • 00:19:05
    coincidence yeah provisional rulings and
  • 00:19:07
    surprise surprise it appeared on the
  • 00:19:08
    front page of the New York Times that
  • 00:19:10
    appeared not to check the story um this
  • 00:19:13
    is what I mean about these Echo Chambers
  • 00:19:14
    I mean the New York Times is not so much
  • 00:19:16
    part of an echo chamber as a very large
  • 00:19:18
    megaphone um that has been trumpeting um
  • 00:19:21
    unchecked allegations frankly and this
  • 00:19:24
    was a typical example now what happened
  • 00:19:27
    was the donors I I think panicked and
  • 00:19:30
    David Cameron the British foreign
  • 00:19:32
    secretary is on record as saying that he
  • 00:19:34
    thought he thinks the British acted too
  • 00:19:36
    hly and what happened was 16 donors
  • 00:19:40
    defunded unra suspended funding which
  • 00:19:43
    effectively um defunded unra to the tune
  • 00:19:46
    of $450 million what percentage of its
  • 00:19:50
    budget would that be well the budget of
  • 00:19:52
    unra is is a sort of moving Target it's
  • 00:19:54
    between 1.2 and5.5 billion so rough
  • 00:19:59
    third third to half yeah so a large
  • 00:20:01
    large chunk of unr's budget um and what
  • 00:20:06
    has happened is that the EU has seen the
  • 00:20:12
    oios report so in response to these
  • 00:20:15
    allegations these claims um the UN
  • 00:20:19
    launched an internal investigation
  • 00:20:21
    independent of unra but internal to the
  • 00:20:22
    UN by the office of internal oversight
  • 00:20:26
    Alias
  • 00:20:27
    oios and former French foreign minister
  • 00:20:31
    um has been commissioned to do a longer
  • 00:20:34
    term report investigation into the
  • 00:20:37
    neutrality Frameworks that unra has now
  • 00:20:39
    the office of internal oversight has
  • 00:20:41
    sent its interim report to the Secretary
  • 00:20:43
    General um and on the base of that
  • 00:20:46
    interim report the EU have resumed
  • 00:20:48
    funding to the tune of 82 million euro
  • 00:20:51
    and the European commissioner for
  • 00:20:54
    humanitarian Affairs a cowat
  • 00:20:56
    commissioner Croatian man has gone on on
  • 00:20:58
    record has said to a pler in the
  • 00:21:00
    Parliament that he has seen they have
  • 00:21:02
    been presented with no evidence
  • 00:21:05
    whatsoever by the Israelis and so just
  • 00:21:08
    to be clear you you mentioned earlier
  • 00:21:10
    that unra was not provided any evidence
  • 00:21:13
    besides list of names and you're now
  • 00:21:15
    also saying that the donors who
  • 00:21:17
    immediately responded by severing or
  • 00:21:20
    suspending their funding to unra also
  • 00:21:22
    didn't receive more than names well they
  • 00:21:25
    received some of them at least the
  • 00:21:27
    Americans for example did receive a
  • 00:21:29
    dossier and blinken The American
  • 00:21:32
    Secretary of State at first said that
  • 00:21:35
    they were CR that the dossia was
  • 00:21:37
    credible else but he but but but he did
  • 00:21:39
    also in the same breath say that they
  • 00:21:42
    had not been able to do an independent
  • 00:21:45
    verification go figure it was credible
  • 00:21:48
    and yet they hadn't independently
  • 00:21:49
    verified it but then you had an American
  • 00:21:53
    Security um part of the American
  • 00:21:56
    Security establishment um which has
  • 00:21:59
    various categories for assessing these
  • 00:22:02
    intelligence reports and the Israeli
  • 00:22:04
    dossier was deemed to be of low
  • 00:22:07
    probability low confidence I think is a
  • 00:22:09
    term that's low low they had low
  • 00:22:12
    confidence in it that's right so um so
  • 00:22:15
    it it it really does appear that the
  • 00:22:16
    donors panicked they acted very
  • 00:22:20
    hastily um and they've frankly been left
  • 00:22:24
    with egg on their faces as we say the
  • 00:22:26
    Israeli News management and the fake
  • 00:22:28
    news tumbled out but that's now all
  • 00:22:31
    coming home to roost because the donors
  • 00:22:34
    here we are weeks on from these
  • 00:22:36
    allegations and no evidence has been
  • 00:22:39
    produced so you know I call this the
  • 00:22:41
    mother of all lies I call this the dodgy
  • 00:22:43
    dossier um because what's happened is
  • 00:22:47
    that it's been it's
  • 00:22:49
    underpinned this smear campaign this
  • 00:22:51
    defund this dismantle campaign of the
  • 00:22:55
    most far-right government in the history
  • 00:22:58
    of the state of Israel so it's most
  • 00:22:59
    unfortunate that these donors have
  • 00:23:02
    basically taken a decision which
  • 00:23:05
    underpins this smear campaign this
  • 00:23:07
    attack on unra but perhaps most
  • 00:23:09
    important M it comes at a time when
  • 00:23:12
    people are starving to death in Gaza on
  • 00:23:16
    an industrial scale so not only have the
  • 00:23:20
    donors taken actions which help
  • 00:23:23
    Implement a far-right political attack
  • 00:23:26
    you know um politicizing humanitarian
  • 00:23:29
    Aid in a way which they're telling unra
  • 00:23:31
    you know it mustn't do and it's bad of
  • 00:23:33
    course politicizing humanitarian Aid is
  • 00:23:35
    always wrong but that's what the donors
  • 00:23:37
    have done but it also violates the
  • 00:23:41
    provisional measures of the icj because
  • 00:23:44
    on the 26th of January the icj said that
  • 00:23:48
    Israel but no member State could take
  • 00:23:52
    any action that restricted humanitarian
  • 00:23:55
    Aid and what did the donors do within a
  • 00:23:57
    matter of 48 hours or so they cut they
  • 00:24:00
    cut off funding to the one organization
  • 00:24:03
    in Gaza that has the capacity with its
  • 00:24:05
    13,000 staff it's warehouses its food
  • 00:24:08
    distribution centers it's Fleet of
  • 00:24:10
    trucks to Stave off starvation so it to
  • 00:24:14
    say it's unfortunate is understatement
  • 00:24:16
    of the century I would say it's it makes
  • 00:24:18
    the donors
  • 00:24:19
    complicit in genocide and in in Mass
  • 00:24:22
    starvation there's there's no other way
  • 00:24:24
    of of of that one but this raises
  • 00:24:27
    another question question um we're
  • 00:24:29
    talking here about states that have some
  • 00:24:33
    of the most um let's say professional
  • 00:24:37
    intelligence services on the globe that
  • 00:24:40
    are keenly aware of Israel's agenda and
  • 00:24:44
    its history of misinformation and
  • 00:24:47
    Distortion and its campaign against unra
  • 00:24:49
    yet in response to basically a press
  • 00:24:53
    report they almost collectively took
  • 00:24:56
    this decision it's a very it's a very
  • 00:24:58
    difficult to accept that they were
  • 00:25:01
    acting either in good faith or were
  • 00:25:03
    panicked um there seems to be something
  • 00:25:05
    more Sinister going on here I mean
  • 00:25:08
    particularly as these are the very
  • 00:25:10
    donors that had worked with unra in
  • 00:25:13
    Partnership for decades on these
  • 00:25:15
    neutrality issues and the you know the
  • 00:25:18
    drill had always been if there are
  • 00:25:21
    credible reports of neutrality
  • 00:25:23
    violations the donor the Israelis
  • 00:25:25
    whoever it is would bring this to unra
  • 00:25:27
    it would be examined it would be checked
  • 00:25:29
    it would be confirmed or not confirmed
  • 00:25:32
    and if guilt was established then
  • 00:25:34
    disciplinary action was always taken up
  • 00:25:37
    to an including dismissal of the staff
  • 00:25:39
    member now I ask you and I don't know
  • 00:25:40
    the answer why did the donors not do
  • 00:25:43
    that in this case there was a system it
  • 00:25:46
    was up and running it had been developed
  • 00:25:47
    over decades with these very donors why
  • 00:25:51
    didn't they come forward and you know
  • 00:25:53
    use the time onor process that they had
  • 00:25:56
    I don't know and um I'm not party to the
  • 00:26:00
    political decisions what I would say is
  • 00:26:03
    I would like to turn the spotlight from
  • 00:26:04
    under back onto these donors and say
  • 00:26:08
    what processes do you have in order to
  • 00:26:11
    ring fence and make immune humanitarian
  • 00:26:14
    decision-making from politics because I
  • 00:26:17
    think these questions should be kicked
  • 00:26:18
    straight back at the donors following
  • 00:26:21
    this absolutely disgraceful episode and
  • 00:26:24
    I think that you know one of the things
  • 00:26:26
    that needs to come out of these
  • 00:26:27
    investigations
  • 00:26:28
    is not just you know what are the
  • 00:26:30
    systems like within unra but what are
  • 00:26:32
    the systems like in the donor community
  • 00:26:34
    that allowed the most far right
  • 00:26:36
    government in the history of Israel to
  • 00:26:40
    have its agenda adopted by the donor
  • 00:26:42
    community in a matter which is in a
  • 00:26:44
    manner which is overtly punitive and
  • 00:26:47
    which is restricting humanitarian Aid in
  • 00:26:51
    violation of the icj and in a manner
  • 00:26:54
    which might well make them complicit
  • 00:26:56
    these donors complicit in Mass
  • 00:26:58
    starvation these are very very serious
  • 00:27:01
    charges and they should be answered and
  • 00:27:03
    I think there should be accountability
  • 00:27:05
    in the donor Community for these
  • 00:27:07
    appalling decisions well you you've
  • 00:27:09
    mentioned um the relationship between um
  • 00:27:14
    the icj's uh ruling on provisional
  • 00:27:16
    measures on the one hand and the almost
  • 00:27:19
    immediately um succeeding suspension of
  • 00:27:22
    funding to unwa um I wonder whether
  • 00:27:25
    there's also another aspect here which
  • 00:27:27
    is that in late
  • 00:27:30
    2023 the security Council apparently
  • 00:27:34
    against the will of the UN um
  • 00:27:37
    Secretariat adopted resolution 2720
  • 00:27:40
    appointing a senior humanitarian and
  • 00:27:43
    reconstruction coordinator for Gaza and
  • 00:27:46
    some have suggested that this is perhaps
  • 00:27:50
    part of an agenda to replace and
  • 00:27:54
    ultimately dismantle um uh unra at least
  • 00:27:58
    with within the Gaza Strip by making
  • 00:27:59
    this office responsible for humanitarian
  • 00:28:02
    Aid um do you think there is a
  • 00:28:05
    connection here or are these two
  • 00:28:08
    completely separate um
  • 00:28:10
    trajectories I don't think there is any
  • 00:28:12
    evidence for that and I have worked very
  • 00:28:15
    closely with sigd K who's the official
  • 00:28:18
    that you've just referenced Who was
  • 00:28:19
    appointed as a result and I can tell you
  • 00:28:21
    she is a woman of great integrity and I
  • 00:28:24
    don't think that she would allow herself
  • 00:28:27
    to be used in in this way I think the
  • 00:28:29
    purpose of this resolution and by the
  • 00:28:31
    way we should talk about it because
  • 00:28:32
    we're now seeing it with this Maritime
  • 00:28:34
    corridor from Cyprus into Gaza I think
  • 00:28:37
    that that resolution is a response to a
  • 00:28:41
    the fact that Israel was not allowing
  • 00:28:43
    Aid in and the security Council had to
  • 00:28:46
    do something people were literally
  • 00:28:48
    starving when that resolution was passed
  • 00:28:51
    and so I think it is a genuine attempt
  • 00:28:53
    it may be flawed in many ways but I
  • 00:28:55
    think the appointment of sigd is
  • 00:28:57
    definitely
  • 00:28:58
    um all about making sure that
  • 00:29:01
    humanitarian Aid at scale gets into Gaza
  • 00:29:05
    however that can be done so you know Sig
  • 00:29:07
    KAG is very very clear that opening up
  • 00:29:11
    all the land routs
  • 00:29:13
    247 from Israel from Jordan the land
  • 00:29:16
    Corridor to to Jordan Etc Egypt Israel
  • 00:29:19
    Jordan should be opened up 247 the
  • 00:29:22
    airdrops you know whatever one thinks
  • 00:29:24
    about them they were in many ways an
  • 00:29:26
    obscene photo op on the other hand it's
  • 00:29:29
    a question of all hands on deck right
  • 00:29:32
    now because Gaza is starving to death
  • 00:29:35
    and the same is true of the sea Corridor
  • 00:29:37
    I I know a bit about the sea Corridor
  • 00:29:39
    because I've you know I've received
  • 00:29:41
    briefings from various people on how
  • 00:29:43
    this is happening um within hours and
  • 00:29:46
    possibly even you know before this
  • 00:29:49
    podcast goes to is is published um the
  • 00:29:52
    first ship is going to arrive in
  • 00:29:55
    Northern Gaza with
  • 00:29:58
    200 metric tons of canned food of pulses
  • 00:30:03
    of flour and of rice and it will land um
  • 00:30:07
    on a a pier that's been constructed by
  • 00:30:11
    two groups that have actually been
  • 00:30:13
    Distributing Aid through 60 plus Aid
  • 00:30:16
    sort of food kitchens throughout the War
  • 00:30:19
    I mean it's not a very well reported
  • 00:30:21
    fact but there have been groups
  • 00:30:23
    empowering local communities by the way
  • 00:30:25
    because there are there are hundreds of
  • 00:30:26
    local Volunteers in
  • 00:30:28
    who have organized themselves and who
  • 00:30:30
    have been Distributing millions of
  • 00:30:32
    ready-made meals to people and there's a
  • 00:30:34
    huge maybe
  • 00:30:36
    300,000 or so displ internally a camp of
  • 00:30:39
    internally displaced people in Northern
  • 00:30:41
    Gaza who have no food so this has been a
  • 00:30:44
    lifeline and without this sea Corridor
  • 00:30:46
    believe you me more people would have
  • 00:30:48
    starved so in the next few hours
  • 00:30:51
    tomorrow Thursday sometime the first
  • 00:30:54
    ship is expected to arrive that's about
  • 00:30:58
    half a million ready meals there and
  • 00:31:00
    there which then need to be distributed
  • 00:31:02
    which then need to be distributed which
  • 00:31:04
    which there is the infrastructure on the
  • 00:31:06
    ground to distribute waiting in lanica
  • 00:31:09
    the port of lanica in Cyprus um are
  • 00:31:13
    hundreds of tons more so 500 there's a
  • 00:31:15
    500 ton shipment which is 1 million
  • 00:31:18
    ready meals which if the first boat
  • 00:31:20
    arrives in the distribution start then
  • 00:31:23
    another 1 million meals will be on the
  • 00:31:26
    way and if that is successful more and
  • 00:31:28
    more and more will come concurrent with
  • 00:31:30
    this phase one parallel with it the
  • 00:31:33
    Americans are going to be establishing a
  • 00:31:36
    large floating pontoon I'm told that
  • 00:31:40
    although ultimately that will take two
  • 00:31:42
    months to finish there is a plan to have
  • 00:31:44
    a sort of interim arrangement in a
  • 00:31:47
    matter of just a few weeks which would
  • 00:31:49
    allow the distributions to start um you
  • 00:31:52
    know really quite quickly and that would
  • 00:31:53
    be to the rest of the Gaza Strip now
  • 00:31:55
    logically unra is the agency that should
  • 00:31:59
    be doing that and cig car has been very
  • 00:32:02
    clear that she supports anra she has
  • 00:32:04
    said on numerous occasions that anr's
  • 00:32:07
    work in this is essential it's
  • 00:32:10
    inimicable to um staving off starvation
  • 00:32:14
    so I could just on on that I don't think
  • 00:32:18
    um what's that issue here is is either
  • 00:32:21
    CET G Integrity or or intentions but
  • 00:32:25
    rather a question about why this um
  • 00:32:29
    mechanism was
  • 00:32:30
    established and why those who promoted
  • 00:32:33
    its establishment um uh thought that it
  • 00:32:37
    was necessary to do so when you already
  • 00:32:40
    have an agency like unra when you
  • 00:32:42
    already have Ocha when you already have
  • 00:32:44
    the world food program but you don't um
  • 00:32:48
    you don't think that that there was an
  • 00:32:50
    agenda here that may have been um
  • 00:32:53
    related to The Campaign against unra I
  • 00:32:56
    don't know but I do know the operational
  • 00:32:58
    realities on the ground and the
  • 00:33:00
    operational realities on the ground are
  • 00:33:03
    that everyone had to get involved Beyond
  • 00:33:06
    unra so yes there was a huge task unra
  • 00:33:09
    has 1.2 million people on its food
  • 00:33:11
    distribution lists in Gaza well pretty
  • 00:33:14
    much double that number are now needing
  • 00:33:16
    food so unra is overwhelmed I mean
  • 00:33:19
    Philipe lazarini the unra commissioner
  • 00:33:21
    General has said many times that unra is
  • 00:33:25
    really on you know the B you 160 plus of
  • 00:33:29
    its staff have been killed its
  • 00:33:31
    facilities have been bombed by the
  • 00:33:33
    Israelis there are hundreds of thousands
  • 00:33:37
    of internally displaced people in unra
  • 00:33:39
    schools in unra clinics in unra you know
  • 00:33:42
    vocational training centers Etc unra is
  • 00:33:45
    completely overwhelmed and more than 150
  • 00:33:48
    of its staff and in many cases along
  • 00:33:50
    with their families are killed during
  • 00:33:53
    this yeah 160 plus exactly so so more
  • 00:33:56
    than unra is needed and someone needed
  • 00:34:00
    to coordinate wfp for example um
  • 00:34:04
    bringing in food from ashon the port in
  • 00:34:06
    southern Israel which onra does but
  • 00:34:08
    other people need to do it so I would
  • 00:34:10
    say the operational realities on the
  • 00:34:12
    ground very much dictated the need for
  • 00:34:15
    someone to coordinate everything and
  • 00:34:18
    that is what Sig's job is she is there
  • 00:34:21
    to scale up Aid and to make sure there
  • 00:34:23
    is coordination and by the way I mean a
  • 00:34:26
    massive win feather in the cap of her
  • 00:34:29
    office an achievement for this a food
  • 00:34:32
    Corridor a humanitarian Aid Lane across
  • 00:34:36
    the Eastern Mediterranean will be
  • 00:34:38
    established and by the way C KAG is Al
  • 00:34:41
    is also very clear that there has to be
  • 00:34:43
    full land and
  • 00:34:45
    all openings to Gaza functioning 247
  • 00:34:49
    including for commercial imports and
  • 00:34:52
    exports so you know it's not just about
  • 00:34:56
    an aid pipeline being you know brought
  • 00:34:58
    into existence it's about trying to get
  • 00:35:00
    the gazan economy working as well and
  • 00:35:04
    that doesn't suggest some kind of plot
  • 00:35:06
    by people who want to destroy Gaza
  • 00:35:09
    destroy unra destroy you know I think
  • 00:35:11
    that it's a genuine attempt to deal with
  • 00:35:14
    a really big problem which is the
  • 00:35:16
    determination of the state of Israel to
  • 00:35:18
    violate international law to violate the
  • 00:35:21
    terms of the interim measures of the icj
  • 00:35:25
    and to get as much Aid into Gaza at a
  • 00:35:28
    time when hundreds of thousands of
  • 00:35:30
    people are going to starve to death and
  • 00:35:33
    I know mean from you know your excellent
  • 00:35:35
    public your your your um interviews that
  • 00:35:37
    you're not a great fan of airdrops
  • 00:35:39
    neither am I and when I saw kind of King
  • 00:35:42
    Abdullah in a kind of bigles you know
  • 00:35:44
    flies alone kind of you know photo op it
  • 00:35:46
    sort of it made my stomach turn but I
  • 00:35:49
    did think when I saw pictures of people
  • 00:35:52
    in Gaza scooping up flour from the floor
  • 00:35:56
    it broke my heart because because it
  • 00:35:57
    showed just how desperately needed those
  • 00:36:01
    food airdrops were even though some of
  • 00:36:03
    them actually killed people you know
  • 00:36:05
    which really makes them highly question
  • 00:36:06
    questionable morally but the fact is
  • 00:36:09
    every single point of entry into Gaza by
  • 00:36:12
    sea by the sky and by Road must be fully
  • 00:36:15
    open 247 and Sig car is very clear
  • 00:36:18
    herself that all of these other methods
  • 00:36:20
    sea and air in no way take the pressure
  • 00:36:23
    off Israel to abide by its obligations
  • 00:36:26
    as the occupying power and under
  • 00:36:29
    international law that is very very
  • 00:36:31
    clear well that that brings to a related
  • 00:36:34
    question which is the American
  • 00:36:36
    initiative to um build this pontoon um
  • 00:36:40
    uh floating Jetty uh whatever it is and
  • 00:36:44
    as you rightly point out it will be an
  • 00:36:46
    Avenue um for uh delivering uh increased
  • 00:36:51
    humanitarian assistance to the Gaza stri
  • 00:36:54
    but I think many people and and
  • 00:36:55
    Commercial exports by the way commercial
  • 00:36:57
    which Sig was very I mean when she
  • 00:36:58
    breathed the security Council she
  • 00:37:00
    actually made that very clear so it's
  • 00:37:02
    not just a sort of Aid pipeline this is
  • 00:37:05
    something which could be used to get the
  • 00:37:06
    gazan economy up and running but many
  • 00:37:09
    people look at it and say why are the
  • 00:37:13
    why are the Americans who effectively
  • 00:37:15
    have absolute power over Israeli
  • 00:37:18
    decisionmaking um do you really think
  • 00:37:22
    that is true when you look at how Biden
  • 00:37:24
    has struggled to contain his ally
  • 00:37:27
    Benjamin Netanyahu and reports now that
  • 00:37:30
    he invites Benny gance to Washington
  • 00:37:31
    precisely to Dethrone him that suggests
  • 00:37:34
    a pretty dysfunctional relationship it
  • 00:37:36
    does not suggest um a relationship
  • 00:37:38
    between a superpower which has any
  • 00:37:40
    influence whatsoever on its client state
  • 00:37:43
    in the Middle East well let's let's
  • 00:37:45
    agree perhaps that the US has chosen not
  • 00:37:47
    to exercise its influence as opposed to
  • 00:37:49
    not having influence but be that as it
  • 00:37:52
    may um many people would argue that the
  • 00:37:56
    US could and should have used its
  • 00:37:59
    influence with Israel to Simply get all
  • 00:38:02
    these loaded trucks waiting to enter um
  • 00:38:06
    uh the Gaza Strip giving them permission
  • 00:38:09
    to deliver the aid instead of you know
  • 00:38:11
    go doing this roundabout months long
  • 00:38:15
    process of delivering much less Aid uh
  • 00:38:18
    by SE I I I agree with that Mo but what
  • 00:38:21
    are you going to do let people starve to
  • 00:38:22
    death while these political issues play
  • 00:38:24
    out well they they would starve to death
  • 00:38:27
    um
  • 00:38:28
    if the US uh chooses not to use its
  • 00:38:31
    leverage and influ they are they are
  • 00:38:33
    starving to death so at least 24
  • 00:38:36
    children have starved to death in our
  • 00:38:37
    shifer Hospital in the last week and of
  • 00:38:39
    course they would still be
  • 00:38:41
    alive sorry they would still be alive
  • 00:38:43
    they would still be alive if America had
  • 00:38:44
    used its influence over Israel
  • 00:38:46
    successfully and Israel but they weren't
  • 00:38:48
    going to they weren't going to that I
  • 00:38:50
    mean whether the Israelis you know the
  • 00:38:52
    Israelis clearly weren't going to and
  • 00:38:53
    whether you think it's because the
  • 00:38:54
    Americans didn't or choose not to
  • 00:38:56
    whatever they it hasn't happened and
  • 00:38:58
    people are n n diving in Gaza and by the
  • 00:39:01
    way food is beginning hopefully food
  • 00:39:04
    with this across this L this Maritime
  • 00:39:07
    Corridor will start arriving in the next
  • 00:39:09
    24 hours and what the date is it today I
  • 00:39:11
    mean 24 hours from whenever we're
  • 00:39:13
    talking yes so Thursday the 14th of
  • 00:39:15
    March yeah yeah I'd now like to turn
  • 00:39:19
    back to um unra and ask you about
  • 00:39:24
    criticisms that have been Le leveled at
  • 00:39:26
    the agency and for that matter also um
  • 00:39:29
    the senior leadership of of the United
  • 00:39:31
    Nations in New York um including by
  • 00:39:35
    former
  • 00:39:36
    employees uh basically saying that their
  • 00:39:39
    panicked response to the Israeli
  • 00:39:42
    allegations which is which as you um
  • 00:39:45
    previously noted were presented without
  • 00:39:47
    evidence or
  • 00:39:48
    substantiation um their panicked
  • 00:39:50
    response and jettison jettisoning of due
  • 00:39:53
    process towards employees of of unra who
  • 00:39:57
    were accused um did two things on the
  • 00:40:01
    one hand it unnecessarily lent Credence
  • 00:40:04
    to Israel's allegations and on the other
  • 00:40:07
    it served to legitimize um the punitive
  • 00:40:11
    measures undertaken by un's largest uh
  • 00:40:15
    funders others have also criticized un's
  • 00:40:18
    lackluster Communications policy in
  • 00:40:21
    response to this crisis some have
  • 00:40:22
    pointed out um you know Chris Gunner
  • 00:40:25
    seems to be much more effective um
  • 00:40:28
    defender of of of unwa um than it's uh
  • 00:40:32
    senior leadership even though he's no
  • 00:40:34
    longer working with the uh agency how do
  • 00:40:37
    you respond to these criticisms well
  • 00:40:39
    there are two parts so there's the
  • 00:40:42
    action of the commissioner General in
  • 00:40:44
    separating these 12 people from the
  • 00:40:47
    agency and then you've asked an
  • 00:40:48
    additional question about unrest
  • 00:40:49
    Communications policies um and practices
  • 00:40:52
    um on the first of those um I am not
  • 00:40:54
    going to come on this podcast and attack
  • 00:40:58
    the commissioner General because there's
  • 00:40:59
    nothing the Israelis and the enemies of
  • 00:41:02
    of unra particularly those in the the
  • 00:41:04
    Israeli far right will want more than me
  • 00:41:08
    turning on Philipe lazarini he took that
  • 00:41:11
    decision firmly believing that he would
  • 00:41:14
    head off a crisis if he took firm robust
  • 00:41:18
    and Swift action and that's precisely
  • 00:41:21
    what he did he thought that by doing
  • 00:41:23
    this he would allay the fears of the
  • 00:41:25
    donors that robust action taken under a
  • 00:41:28
    policy which as I said earlier has been
  • 00:41:30
    developed in partnership with the donors
  • 00:41:33
    and I think it took everybody by
  • 00:41:35
    surprise I'm sure including you Moen
  • 00:41:38
    that the donors suddenly um you know
  • 00:41:42
    departed from unra to the tune of $450
  • 00:41:46
    million so it was done to protect the
  • 00:41:50
    interests of the agency it was done very
  • 00:41:52
    much in accordance with um policies
  • 00:41:55
    which are permitted under the framework
  • 00:41:57
    works that the unra has and you know it
  • 00:42:00
    it did lead to this Mass Exodus of dones
  • 00:42:02
    but that clearly was not the desired
  • 00:42:05
    effect and that was clearly not what the
  • 00:42:07
    commissioner General had in mind he
  • 00:42:09
    thought he was protecting the agency by
  • 00:42:12
    demonstrating seriousness of purpose
  • 00:42:14
    towards the donors yeah I mean it I
  • 00:42:17
    think the donors betrayed unra I think
  • 00:42:19
    if you're going to point a finger at
  • 00:42:20
    anybody point the finger at the donors
  • 00:42:22
    because the donors and unra had I saw it
  • 00:42:25
    from the inside I saw these Frameworks
  • 00:42:27
    and these practices being developed over
  • 00:42:29
    years and years and years as you quite
  • 00:42:31
    rightly said these allegations are not
  • 00:42:32
    new anra has been around this course
  • 00:42:34
    before and I think it was perfectly
  • 00:42:36
    reasonable of commissioner General
  • 00:42:38
    lazarini to expect the donors not to
  • 00:42:41
    overreact as they did and indeed hey
  • 00:42:43
    Lord Cameron the British foreign
  • 00:42:45
    secretary has on the record is saying
  • 00:42:47
    the donors acted too hastily and I think
  • 00:42:50
    that really does you know that gives
  • 00:42:53
    some support to the action which Philipe
  • 00:42:55
    lazarini took on question of um of of
  • 00:43:00
    communications policy look I have to I
  • 00:43:02
    have to say it's really tough from
  • 00:43:04
    within anra having to defend the agency
  • 00:43:08
    because you have to speak from within
  • 00:43:10
    accepted un style guides and you know
  • 00:43:13
    principles and Security Council
  • 00:43:15
    resolutions and also mindful of what the
  • 00:43:18
    donor Dynamics are so I mean when I was
  • 00:43:20
    in un I used to sail pretty close to the
  • 00:43:23
    Wind by criticizing Israel accusing
  • 00:43:25
    Israel of war crimes and I would
  • 00:43:26
    regularly get my Knuckles you know
  • 00:43:28
    wrapped um by the Americans um actually
  • 00:43:31
    most a lot of the criticism I faced was
  • 00:43:34
    internally you know the un's political
  • 00:43:36
    office the guys at unsco um they would
  • 00:43:38
    regularly um stab you know stab me in
  • 00:43:41
    the back for things I was saying I think
  • 00:43:43
    I you know I've got as much criticism um
  • 00:43:45
    from inside you know the political side
  • 00:43:47
    of the UN than I did from from from the
  • 00:43:50
    Americans or um the Israelis but again I
  • 00:43:52
    will not attack um unra spokespeople I I
  • 00:43:56
    think you know they have a massive
  • 00:43:59
    International pro-israel Pro Zionist
  • 00:44:03
    Hasbro Machinery massively funded hugely
  • 00:44:07
    well resourced you know they have
  • 00:44:09
    tentacles everywhere and the idea that a
  • 00:44:12
    relatively small under resource
  • 00:44:15
    Communications team in unra um can
  • 00:44:19
    somehow take on this massive Zionist
  • 00:44:22
    Juggernaut that's putting out lies and
  • 00:44:25
    disinformation all the time
  • 00:44:27
    um I think it's a very unequal struggle
  • 00:44:30
    to you it's a very asymmetric conflict
  • 00:44:32
    and so I I mean forgive me but I won't
  • 00:44:34
    criticize un no nor nor nor is nor is a
  • 00:44:38
    purpose to um yeah and by the way I I
  • 00:44:41
    have I have stepped in to defend anra um
  • 00:44:44
    because I care about the refugees I care
  • 00:44:46
    about Gaza and I think the things that
  • 00:44:48
    I've been saying needed to be said and I
  • 00:44:50
    fully recognize that it's really tough
  • 00:44:54
    for people inside unra to say these
  • 00:44:56
    things because because quite frankly
  • 00:44:58
    that would lead to Dona defunding you
  • 00:45:00
    know if well can I ask can I ask pose a
  • 00:45:02
    question differently do you feel the
  • 00:45:05
    senior leadership of the UN in New York
  • 00:45:08
    has been sufficiently supportive of the
  • 00:45:10
    agency during this arguably
  • 00:45:13
    unprecedented crisis in the agency's
  • 00:45:15
    history no I do not and I'm very clear
  • 00:45:19
    about this I think that the Secretary
  • 00:45:21
    General was too quick to assume the
  • 00:45:24
    guilty narrative I think that much more
  • 00:45:27
    could have been done to stand by unra I
  • 00:45:30
    think much more could have been done
  • 00:45:32
    earlier on to face down the false
  • 00:45:36
    information that was put about by Israel
  • 00:45:39
    I said immediately that if Israel
  • 00:45:42
    actually had real evidence as opposed to
  • 00:45:45
    unsubstantiated
  • 00:45:48
    claims we'd all have seen it guess what
  • 00:45:51
    folks they don't have it that's why
  • 00:45:53
    we've not seen it it was so obvious to
  • 00:45:55
    me I mean I was the subject of Lies fake
  • 00:45:59
    news misinformation put out by Mark
  • 00:46:01
    regev and all of his cohorts you know
  • 00:46:03
    during the 2014 conflict um when the
  • 00:46:06
    Israelis were hitting un schools and
  • 00:46:09
    killing people um Markt Reger would tell
  • 00:46:12
    journalists oh there were militants in
  • 00:46:13
    the schools and journalists would fo me
  • 00:46:15
    up and say oh Mark Gregor just told us
  • 00:46:16
    there were militants in your schools of
  • 00:46:18
    course in the fog of war with confusion
  • 00:46:20
    going on anra wasn't able to interview
  • 00:46:23
    staff to look at you know all the
  • 00:46:24
    evidence that was available and make a
  • 00:46:26
    proper determination it was only after
  • 00:46:28
    the 2014 conflict that there was a board
  • 00:46:31
    of inquiry a So-Cal Boi when we were
  • 00:46:33
    able to establish the extent to which
  • 00:46:36
    Mart regev and Co were telling lies it
  • 00:46:38
    was baseless but of course as ever with
  • 00:46:41
    these stories people remember the
  • 00:46:43
    original allegation as they have here um
  • 00:46:46
    but they're less likely to remember the
  • 00:46:49
    refuting and the rebuttal of um the
  • 00:46:52
    allegations so yeah I mean it's a very
  • 00:46:55
    unequal struggle I think the unre
  • 00:46:57
    commmunications team have performed
  • 00:46:59
    Valiant um you know every single news
  • 00:47:02
    agency in a multiplicity of languages
  • 00:47:05
    across the world are phoning them up 247
  • 00:47:08
    so I would I would stand by them and say
  • 00:47:11
    they've done an utterly Valiant job okay
  • 00:47:15
    um you have at the same time recently
  • 00:47:19
    proposed a 10-point plan for the
  • 00:47:21
    agency's rescue and uh Revival without
  • 00:47:25
    getting into too much detail um why did
  • 00:47:28
    you feel the need to formulate this plan
  • 00:47:31
    and and what are its main
  • 00:47:32
    elements I felt the need to do it
  • 00:47:34
    because it just seemed so obvious that
  • 00:47:36
    it had to be done and I I got the sense
  • 00:47:39
    from talking to people in unra that
  • 00:47:41
    there were loads of donor briefings and
  • 00:47:43
    and all sorts of briefings for all sorts
  • 00:47:45
    of stakeholders and under going on but I
  • 00:47:48
    felt that just something clear and
  • 00:47:50
    simple and very strategic might prompt
  • 00:47:53
    people in the right direction and it's a
  • 00:47:54
    very simple concept I mean when the
  • 00:47:56
    defunding happen happened um there were
  • 00:47:58
    some donats who did not abandon unra
  • 00:48:00
    Norway Spain Ireland and Belgium and
  • 00:48:04
    they put out very strong arguments um
  • 00:48:07
    for why it was a mistake to defund unra
  • 00:48:10
    particularly now and so the point of
  • 00:48:12
    this plan was simply to work for unra to
  • 00:48:16
    Work Management to work with these
  • 00:48:18
    donors who'd been good donors um and to
  • 00:48:22
    get them to do the heavy lifting on
  • 00:48:24
    bringing back the other donors and I
  • 00:48:26
    think to some extent that has that has
  • 00:48:28
    actually happened and as I speak the EU
  • 00:48:31
    have come back the swedes have come back
  • 00:48:34
    um and the Canadians have come back and
  • 00:48:38
    I'm hopeful that the Brits will come
  • 00:48:40
    back quite soon um Andrew Mitchell the
  • 00:48:43
    development Minister and David Cameron
  • 00:48:45
    the foreign secretary have made it quite
  • 00:48:47
    clear that they intend to come back and
  • 00:48:49
    I think others like
  • 00:48:51
    Australia Penny Wong the foreign
  • 00:48:53
    minister is pretty much on record as
  • 00:48:55
    saying that they've not seen any
  • 00:48:57
    evidence um to back up this Australian
  • 00:49:00
    decision so I think we can expect I mean
  • 00:49:02
    one of the biggies is Germany so Germany
  • 00:49:04
    um funds under to the tune of 200
  • 00:49:07
    million euros it's the second largest
  • 00:49:09
    donor after the United States yeah yeah
  • 00:49:12
    exactly exactly so but of course very
  • 00:49:14
    very close to Israel um all that
  • 00:49:17
    Holocaust guilt um means that um you
  • 00:49:19
    know Germany will tow Israel's line but
  • 00:49:23
    interestingly you know the IDF Israeli
  • 00:49:26
    Army are beginning to realize that if
  • 00:49:28
    unra doesn't do all these food
  • 00:49:29
    distributions then maybe the occupying
  • 00:49:31
    power will have to do especially in
  • 00:49:33
    occupying power that's just obliterated
  • 00:49:35
    most of Gaza and all the infrastructure
  • 00:49:38
    that you would need you know things like
  • 00:49:39
    roads um you know distribution centers
  • 00:49:42
    all those sorts of things that you need
  • 00:49:44
    to distribute food at scale have been
  • 00:49:46
    destroyed by the IDF and if unra doesn't
  • 00:49:49
    do it you know guys maybe the IDF should
  • 00:49:52
    be forced to abide by its obligations
  • 00:49:54
    under the Fourth Geneva Convention and
  • 00:49:57
    do it so I think even Israel is
  • 00:49:59
    beginning to regret this decision by the
  • 00:50:02
    fascistic far right in Israel to destroy
  • 00:50:06
    onra although um you say fascistic far
  • 00:50:09
    right but as you've pointed out this has
  • 00:50:13
    been effectively an agenda item um for
  • 00:50:16
    every Israeli government for
  • 00:50:18
    decades I don't think that they are have
  • 00:50:22
    ever gone as far as threatening to
  • 00:50:24
    withhold visas for unrest
  • 00:50:27
    and and and if you could for a moment
  • 00:50:29
    just explain um or what are the new
  • 00:50:32
    measures the that that we haven't seen
  • 00:50:35
    before well I mean withholding um visas
  • 00:50:39
    for UNR staff is one way that the
  • 00:50:41
    Israelis have I me people can't get
  • 00:50:43
    across the alen be Bridge from Jordan
  • 00:50:45
    into into Israel the occupied territory
  • 00:50:48
    then they can't um and it's very
  • 00:50:50
    difficult to mount a huge Aid operation
  • 00:50:52
    similarly International staff arriving
  • 00:50:54
    in benorian airport if they're not
  • 00:50:55
    allowed in they can't can't get to their
  • 00:50:57
    offices and this is a matter of policy
  • 00:51:00
    now I'm not saying it's a matter of
  • 00:51:02
    policy but it's been threatened I mean
  • 00:51:03
    if you look at the media I mean I have
  • 00:51:04
    no particular connection with the
  • 00:51:06
    Israeli Administration but I I see what
  • 00:51:08
    I you know I read inets and other
  • 00:51:10
    newspapers um then there's the question
  • 00:51:13
    of bank accounts so a lot of Israel of
  • 00:51:15
    unr's um Financial relationships with
  • 00:51:18
    its contractors you know buying huge
  • 00:51:20
    amounts of Aid and all sorts of
  • 00:51:22
    medicines things that they have to under
  • 00:51:24
    have to distribute that comes through
  • 00:51:25
    Israeli Banks and if the government in
  • 00:51:28
    Israel forbids unra to have bank
  • 00:51:30
    accounts then you know that stops um
  • 00:51:33
    similarly um leasing of property um so
  • 00:51:36
    there have been threats to cancel the
  • 00:51:39
    lease hold Arrangements of for example
  • 00:51:41
    un's main headquarters in East Jerusalem
  • 00:51:44
    which is also incidentally the
  • 00:51:45
    headquarters of the West Bank operation
  • 00:51:48
    so you know that those are the sorts of
  • 00:51:50
    punitive bureaucratic measures which
  • 00:51:52
    Israel is threatening to take now of
  • 00:51:54
    course the big question is will the
  • 00:51:56
    donors to unra allow that I mean if
  • 00:51:58
    donors are giving hundreds of millions
  • 00:52:00
    of dollars to make unra operational um
  • 00:52:04
    in order to do what its client State the
  • 00:52:06
    Israeli government should be doing under
  • 00:52:08
    the Fourth Geneva Convention it's most
  • 00:52:10
    unlikely that it will allow a bunch of
  • 00:52:12
    petty far-right politicians to undermine
  • 00:52:16
    that by refusing to rubber stamp a Visa
  • 00:52:18
    in some Department of the home Ministry
  • 00:52:20
    I I I suggest but I don't know you know
  • 00:52:24
    and n does unra so it's something which
  • 00:52:26
    the Americans probably need to start
  • 00:52:28
    straightening out and that will be
  • 00:52:30
    another one of those things which we've
  • 00:52:31
    alluded to in this conversation me um
  • 00:52:33
    that will test the strength of American
  • 00:52:36
    power um to make Israel do the right
  • 00:52:38
    thing and in the meantime um Ona's
  • 00:52:41
    ability to function and deliver its
  • 00:52:44
    essential Services effectively um hangs
  • 00:52:47
    in the
  • 00:52:48
    balance it does it does hang in the
  • 00:52:51
    balance and this is a political question
  • 00:52:53
    it's a financial question but both of
  • 00:52:55
    those have practical implications so
  • 00:52:58
    politically there is a battle going on
  • 00:53:00
    for the existential future of unra don't
  • 00:53:03
    forget that unra also works in Syria
  • 00:53:06
    Lebanon and Jordan so it's very much a
  • 00:53:08
    fight for the existential future of unra
  • 00:53:10
    in the West Bank and Gaza though if
  • 00:53:12
    donors defund to the extent they have
  • 00:53:14
    done then clearly the operations in
  • 00:53:16
    these other places will be affected um
  • 00:53:19
    it's a financial as I say um question
  • 00:53:21
    because without the money hre won't be
  • 00:53:23
    able to pay it staff about 90% of hre's
  • 00:53:25
    budget is paying staff so you know once
  • 00:53:28
    you start not being able to pay staff
  • 00:53:30
    then your operations really do start to
  • 00:53:32
    crumble um and very lastly it's an
  • 00:53:34
    operational thing you know it's a battle
  • 00:53:36
    one of the battle lines as I've been
  • 00:53:38
    explaining is is all about having boots
  • 00:53:41
    on the ground you know teachers in the
  • 00:53:42
    schools doctors in the clinics um
  • 00:53:45
    workers in the food distribution centers
  • 00:53:47
    and without that um it would be very
  • 00:53:49
    difficult for unra to function Chris
  • 00:53:52
    gunes thank you very much for sharing
  • 00:53:54
    your insights your experience es and
  • 00:53:57
    your expertise with connections it's
  • 00:53:59
    been a fascinating discussion it's a
  • 00:54:01
    real pleasure it's a great pleasure to
  • 00:54:03
    sort someone who I respect so much so
  • 00:54:04
    thank you very much for having me on
  • 00:54:06
    your program thanks lot thank you
  • 00:54:09
    brilliant
Tags
  • UNRWA
  • Palestinian refugees
  • UNHCR
  • Israel
  • refugee rights
  • funding issues
  • Middle East
  • education
  • humanitarian aid
  • international law